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Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind. My

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Speaker 1: name is Joe McCormick. Today's Saturday, which means we are

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Speaker 1: heading into the vault for an older episode of the show.

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Speaker 1: This is an interview that Rob did with the author

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Speaker 1: and illustrator George O'Connor, and the episode was called as

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Speaker 1: Guardians Odin. It originally published March twenty sixth, twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 2: Enjoy Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production

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Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 3: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name

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Speaker 3: is Robert Lamb. In today's episode, I chat with author

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Speaker 3: and illustrator George O'Connor, creator of the twelve volume Olympians

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Speaker 3: comic series. His new book Odin is his first venture

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Speaker 3: in a new as Guardians graphic novel series, and it

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Speaker 3: is out today in all fourmats. I'd spoken with George

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Speaker 3: a couple of years back and decided at that point

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Speaker 3: that he would make for a great guest here on

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Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind. You know, given our general

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Speaker 3: interest on the show here in Global Myths, so it

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Speaker 3: was a real treat to get to chat with him here.

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Speaker 3: Plus he is one of my son's favorite authors, so

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Speaker 3: hopefully I'm still scoring a few cool Dad points here

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Speaker 3: and there. So without further ado, let's jump right into

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Speaker 3: the interview. Hi George, welcome to the show.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for having me.

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Speaker 3: So, the new graphic novel is Odin, the first in

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Speaker 3: your brand new as Guardian series, and this comes on

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Speaker 3: the heels of your what twelve volume Olympian series about

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Speaker 3: the gods of Greek mythology. Yeah, so, how did the

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Speaker 3: Olympians come together? And then how did that lead into

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Speaker 3: this new venture?

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Speaker 2: Oh? I mean, it's kind of a long story and

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Speaker 2: there's almost like multiple different versions I could tell, but

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Speaker 2: you know, as a fan of your podcast, I know

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Speaker 2: some of the spots I should really hit. So Olympians

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Speaker 2: was a lifelong love. Right when I was in third grade,

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Speaker 2: I was involved in a special school program where we

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Speaker 2: kind of did project based learning where the teacher who's

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Speaker 2: headed it up, Hi missus Stimili, if you're listening, she

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Speaker 2: would do these big project based things. We would study,

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Speaker 2: like say, we studied like Rube Goldberg for instance, as

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Speaker 2: a way of studying the history of comics and at

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Speaker 2: the same time studying like simple machines and stuff. And

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Speaker 2: we did a whole section on Greek mythology, and it

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Speaker 2: was the thing that really clicked with me. I was

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Speaker 2: the kid who drew. A lot of kids drew back then,

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Speaker 2: but that was definitely my identity. I was the kid

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Speaker 2: who drew. I like to draw like monsters and muscle

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Speaker 2: men and stuff. This is the age of like he

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Speaker 2: Man and things. I think the original Clash of the Titans,

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Speaker 2: the Ray Harryhausen was just out in theaters or had

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Speaker 2: been out, so there was a lot of young Greek

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Speaker 2: in the air. And it was a big thing for me,

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Speaker 2: partially because the stories were so not the sort of

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Speaker 2: thing you would be exposed to as a kid normally.

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Speaker 2: They were full of like, you know, violence and sexy

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Speaker 2: stuff and things that, like as a third grade you

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Speaker 2: were normally not allowed to look at. But because it

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Speaker 2: was like this Greek mythology thing, it was condoned. And

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Speaker 2: I was also the kid who hated being talked down to.

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Speaker 2: If the second I could tell an adult was like

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Speaker 2: talking down to me, I'm like, this person's an idiot,

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Speaker 2: and I don't know why I'm talking to them. So

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Speaker 2: this all just came together in this perfect mix for me,

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Speaker 2: and it just became a lifelong love and I read

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Speaker 2: a lot of books, like all the books I could

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Speaker 2: find about Greek mythology, and then I branched out to

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Speaker 2: other mythologies after I kind of exhausted everything in my library,

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Speaker 2: and one of the things I got into was Norse mythology,

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Speaker 2: and by that point I think I was induced to

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Speaker 2: Greeks about like third grade. By Norse mythology gotne into

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Speaker 2: about sixth grade. And at that time I also discovered

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Speaker 2: superhero comics. My mom bought me an issue of The

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Speaker 2: Mighty Thour one day when I home sick from school.

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Speaker 2: Both my parents read comics, but not They weren't like

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Speaker 2: Wednesday Warriors. They didn't run to the shops, but we

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Speaker 2: just had a lot of comics in the house, and

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Speaker 2: my mom bought me this Thor. It was during the

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Speaker 2: creator Walt Simonson's run, and if you know your Marvel comics,

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Speaker 2: you know Walt Simonson he took you know, the Marvel

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Speaker 2: comics of Thor is mythologically not particularly accurate.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: It was created by Stanley and Jack kirbying Journey to

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Speaker 2: Mystery in the sixties, but during the eighties Walt Simonson

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Speaker 2: took over this book as writer and illustrator the cartoonist

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Speaker 2: for it, and he really brought the mythology back in

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Speaker 2: a very accurate way. So basically, as I was reading

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Speaker 2: these mythological stories for the first times, I'm also being

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Speaker 2: exposed to these comics that are retelling the mythology in

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Speaker 2: a way that makes sense to me. And so it

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Speaker 2: plays this big role. The whole idea behind Olympians and

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Speaker 2: now as Guardians is it's classic superhero retellings of mythology

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Speaker 2: that sounds maybe more asked the one. I hope they

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Speaker 2: come out as like, it's not just all bam pao stuff.

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Speaker 2: It's just using the kind of storytelling techniques to like

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Speaker 2: make the way the stories came alive in my brain

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Speaker 2: as a kid seeing all these big long names and

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Speaker 2: big long words and stuff like, they came to life

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Speaker 2: in a very exciting way for me. Both mythologies Greek

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Speaker 2: and Norse and being introduced to thor and then through

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Speaker 2: that just becoming a comic book fiend, particularly old Marvel

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Speaker 2: comics and such, the two were very inextricably linked. Of

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Speaker 2: the two mythologies, Greek mythology was always my favor. It

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Speaker 2: was my first love. And so I've you know that

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Speaker 2: was it made sense for that to be the first

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Speaker 2: series I brought to life with Olympians, which was like

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Speaker 2: a twelve volume series. Each one was centered on a

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Speaker 2: different Olympian god. Not exhaustive. There's too much Greek mythology

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Speaker 2: to tell every myth, but just enough to give a

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Speaker 2: portrait of the goddess or god the book was about.

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Speaker 2: And I wrapped it up with twelve books because that

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Speaker 2: seemed like a good number. And then I was like,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to do the Norse because you know, after

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Speaker 2: twelve years of doing Olympians one book a year, essentially,

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Speaker 2: you know, Greek gods are very beautiful and you know,

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Speaker 2: perfect that way. I wanted to dress something like a

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Speaker 2: little bit grittier and like the Norse mythology. It's like

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Speaker 2: that those gods are not renowned for their beauty, with

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Speaker 2: a few exceptions, like you know, the stories like those

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Speaker 2: gods as a spoiler, they get old, they die, they

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Speaker 2: get maimed. They're not the perfect, all powerful beings. So

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Speaker 2: it's a real exciting, fun change of pace after over

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Speaker 2: a decade of working on one style mythology, to dip

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Speaker 2: my fingers in to tell this other style.

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Speaker 3: Now the yeah, the Olympian series. I was introduced to

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Speaker 3: these because my son, who's about to turn twelve, he

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Speaker 3: got really into them during the pandemic. I think maybe

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Speaker 3: he got them. We got them initially through the library system,

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Speaker 3: but then eventually we just had to buy them all

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Speaker 3: because he needed to read them over and over again. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: he was a he wasn't is a huge fan because

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Speaker 3: I think they fed his curiosity about Greek mythology. Well also, ultimately,

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Speaker 3: I think pushing pushing him more into other global myths

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Speaker 3: and getting him into other things like like the novels

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Speaker 3: of Rick Ryerdan and the various authors under that Rick

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Speaker 3: uired and presents Banner. Yeah, and yeah, I wish I'd

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Speaker 3: had some of these resources growing up, because I feel

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Speaker 3: like I had the what is it, the d. D

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Speaker 3: Alari's Book of Greek Myths?

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Speaker 2: Oh Delaria's Book of Greek Myths.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah, I had that one. I had some

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Speaker 3: like really stuffy old books of my aunts, and then

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Speaker 3: just Clash the Titans, and those are like the main

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Speaker 3: initial resources I had for Greek mythology.

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Speaker 2: I think we probably pulled on exactly the same resources.

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Speaker 2: So I have a huge soft spot for Delaarre's book

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Speaker 2: of Greek Myths. And if you're listening at home, you

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Speaker 2: don't know this book, you probably do. It was an

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Speaker 2: oversized yellow and orange cover of like a Sun God.

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Speaker 2: Every library had it, every classroom should have it. And

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Speaker 2: it is this husband wife team, the Dolaires, who retold

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Speaker 2: Greek mythology and the illustrations, like, I'm obsessed with this book,

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Speaker 2: like you can even look online. There's a comic I

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Speaker 2: did for The New York Times about Dolaires because I

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Speaker 2: love this book so much, and like the illustrations are

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Speaker 2: some of them are so cool and some of them

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Speaker 2: are so weird. And as a kid it was something

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Speaker 2: I grappled with. I'm like, I don't know what to

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Speaker 2: make of this imagery, and so I would redraw the

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Speaker 2: myths in my own style. And that's such a cornerstone

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Speaker 2: of what Olympians grew out of what the Delairs did

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Speaker 2: that was amazing, I think, is taking all the disparate

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Speaker 2: threads of Greek mythology, all these different versions of stories

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Speaker 2: written over the entire Mediterranean world over hundreds of years,

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Speaker 2: no real connection, there's no Bible, but they took it

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Speaker 2: and worked it into a really nice cohesive narrative, and

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Speaker 2: that's something that I've tried to do with both as

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Speaker 2: Guardians and Olympians, to take all these disparate stories and

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Speaker 2: like it's it's that superhero mentality, like if this is

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Speaker 2: all in continuity, how do we make this work. One

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Speaker 2: of my pet peeves though, growing up it was those

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Speaker 2: stuffy old mythology books. Like I appreciate it as a sophisticate,

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Speaker 2: a relatively sophisticated adult when you read a Greek mythology

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Speaker 2: book that's illustrated with like faux like you know, vase

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Speaker 2: painting drawings and stuff. But as a kid, that doesn't

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Speaker 2: grab you, and it's already Sometimes for some people it's

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Speaker 2: a real uphill battle when you see like Hefestos or

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Speaker 2: Persephone or all these long names. Some people it just

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Speaker 2: it's an impenetrable wall of texts. They just get blocked.

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Speaker 2: They never get into it. And that that's such a

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Speaker 2: key part of like what the myths were to me,

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Speaker 2: was like bringing them to life the way I saw

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Speaker 2: them in my head, doing that in my books that way,

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Speaker 2: and of course Clash of the Titans, seeing that it

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Speaker 2: was just like that was pretty mind blowing. Oh yeah, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: although I do have a huge problem with the cracking

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Speaker 2: Oh yes, because he's not from Greek mythology. I was

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Speaker 2: that kid, I still am that guy, clearly I'm mentioning

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Speaker 2: it now.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, my son actually points to your Olympian series often.

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Speaker 3: It's like, this is the real stuff, this is the

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Speaker 3: accurate stuff. It took me a long time to get

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Speaker 3: him into the mcu Thor movies because he would criticize

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Speaker 3: it constantly. It's like, this is not actually the way

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Speaker 3: the mythology works, this is not what Thor is about.

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Speaker 3: I had to like kind of just gently bring him

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Speaker 3: into it more and be like, well, you know, this

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Speaker 3: is a different version. This is a like a science

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Speaker 3: fiction using those characters.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Part of my original pitch for as Guardians, Like

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Speaker 2: I think the first line is Thor is not Loki's brother.

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Speaker 2: Loki is Odin's blood brother. If anything, Loki is his uncle,

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Speaker 2: and that's always describes attention. Like the Marvel versions of

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Speaker 2: Thor and Loki and Odin, all Norse mythology have so

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Speaker 2: firmly supplanted in the public consciousness. Any idea that people

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Speaker 2: have of the original, like you could just kind that's

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Speaker 2: like a controversial statement, like, yeah, they're not brothers, they're

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Speaker 2: like what and just the depictions of the gods are

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Speaker 2: so different, especially Thor. So my book Odin is coming

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Speaker 2: out soon. Thor comes out later in the year. It's

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Speaker 2: already done, and like the Thor of myth is such

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Speaker 2: like a delightful Lummis and like that was such a

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Speaker 2: fun book to do, probably the most fun I've ever

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Speaker 2: had doing a book. Is just he's this big, dumb,

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Speaker 2: muscle bound brute who just like you know, he just

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Speaker 2: lives to smash things with his hammer, which I mean,

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Speaker 2: I guess some of that is similar to the mcu version.

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Speaker 2: But he's also he's no Chris Hemsworth. He's not like

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Speaker 2: this gorgeous blonde guy. He's an overly muscled, like briskly

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Speaker 2: like haired, redheaded guy with a beard like covered with

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Speaker 2: body hair. It's just he's just a fun dude to

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Speaker 2: draw who just delights and smashing.

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Speaker 3: That's gonna be a fun follow up to this, to

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Speaker 3: this Odin book, which was We'll talk about like this

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Speaker 3: is a This is like a in many respects, like

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Speaker 3: a deeply weird grim tale. Not to say there's no

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Speaker 3: humor in it, but it leans more towards the weird

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Speaker 3: and the grim.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it does. I don't know if that reflects anything

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Speaker 2: about my life or just like the actual storytelling. But

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Speaker 2: what I've tried to do with each of these books

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Speaker 2: is to paint a portrait of the deity that's being featured.

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Speaker 2: And the thing that becomes very apparent when you read

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Speaker 2: a series of Norse myths is that Odin's overall arc,

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Speaker 2: very consistent, is his obsession with knowledge. He's obsessed with

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Speaker 2: finding out more. And some of that is he has

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Speaker 2: a sense of like the doom that awaits all the gods,

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Speaker 2: Ragnarok coming, and he's trying to stave that off. But

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Speaker 2: virtually every myth of him is him trying to learn

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Speaker 2: more and the sacrifices he makes. This is a god

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Speaker 2: who literally plucks out his own eye for an opportunity

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Speaker 2: to learn more knowledge. You know, he famously hangs himself

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Speaker 2: on the tree Ignitosil in order like achieves like an

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Speaker 2: out of body experience in order to learn more about

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Speaker 2: what is to come. The story ends up being very

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Speaker 2: like dark in a way, like exploration of like this

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Speaker 2: man who is obsessed with finding out his fate so

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Speaker 2: he could try to stop it, and you know spoilers,

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Speaker 2: he's not going to be able to.

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Speaker 3: In working with some of these wild ideas settings and

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Speaker 3: events for Odin, did you ever feel like you were

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Speaker 3: writing like a Jodorowski comic, because you know, it's pretty

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Speaker 3: it's pretty surreal and weird almost from the get go.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it really. That's a great way, but it's kind

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Speaker 2: of tricky. Like I was just lamenting this to my

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Speaker 2: partner the other day, Like some elements of Norse mythology,

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Speaker 2: they'll just drop a line that's just so weird. You're like,

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Speaker 2: how do I interpret this? Like, for the Norse creation

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Speaker 2: myth involves a giant hermaphroditic creature named Emir who exists

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Speaker 2: in this void between worlds, and he kind of starts

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Speaker 2: butting living beings out of his armpits and stuff, and

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Speaker 2: these being eventually give birth to Odin and his brothers,

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Speaker 2: who then they murder Emyr and builds like the entire

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Speaker 2: cosmos out of his body. And so I'm able to

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Speaker 2: say that is one thing, and it's pretty weird saying that,

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Speaker 2: but then having to craft the visual imagery to go

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Speaker 2: with that. I spent a long time trying to strike

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Speaker 2: the right balance between gruesome and realistic and absurd. I'll say,

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Speaker 2: my Emir kind of looks like the Staypuff marshmallow Man

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Speaker 2: a little bit just floating their naked in the void.

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Speaker 2: But I mean, I feel like that's the best way

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Speaker 2: to handle it.

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Speaker 3: And I have to say I was really impressed with

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Speaker 3: how Odin comes together as a story as opposed to

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Speaker 3: just like a sequence of strange tellings and half tellings.

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Speaker 3: You know, like it it really, you really do bring

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Speaker 3: it together and it isn't just this like surreal you know,

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Speaker 3: procession of images.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. One of the things that I actually tried to

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Speaker 2: structure the episodes that start off more outlandish and bring

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Speaker 2: it more into the like the the regression, the stories

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Speaker 2: get a little bit less insane in order to tell

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Speaker 2: the story of Odin sacrificing everything he can for more wisdom.

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Speaker 2: Another thing I tried to do with this is so

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Speaker 2: a little history of Norse mythology, frustratingly as opposed to

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Speaker 2: Greek mythology, where there is enough material that has survived

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Speaker 2: from antiquity that I could probably do a book year

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Speaker 2: for rest of my life and never run even close

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Speaker 2: to dry Norse mythology there's very little that survived to us,

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Speaker 2: and virtually everything that did survive was recorded in the

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Speaker 2: Christian era after people stopped believing in these gods for

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Speaker 2: the most part. So you basically have the poetic Eta,

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Speaker 2: which is a collection of various Skaldic poems, and you

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Speaker 2: have the prose Eda, which was written by this guy

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Speaker 2: named Snorri Sterlisson, which is the best name ever. And

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Speaker 2: it's just this is kind of all that you get

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Speaker 2: from these two things, Like there's not even much art

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Speaker 2: that survived. And with Snorri he's retelling Snory Sterlissen, the

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Speaker 2: guy who wrote the Prosetta, he's retelling some of these

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Speaker 2: Scaldic poems that he was aware of and putting his

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Speaker 2: own spin on them, as you should as a storyteller.

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Speaker 2: And I find that's such a part of the experience

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Speaker 2: of reading Norse mythology that I've never seen reflected in

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Speaker 2: any other retellings before. So, for instance, in the book Odin,

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Speaker 2: the main character in a sense is you the reader.

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Speaker 2: There is actually someone who is you're being. It's you know,

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Speaker 2: a rare case of second person narration, where somebody is

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Speaker 2: describing to everything you're seeing and you walk into you.

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Speaker 2: You basically awake on a battlefield, and all around you

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Speaker 2: see all these dead Norsemen who'd been slaughtered, and there's

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Speaker 2: literally carrying crows eating them. And then these these women

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Speaker 2: in silver come riding out of the sky on horses

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Speaker 2: and it's the Valkyries and they're picking their spirits up

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Speaker 2: taking them to Valhalla, and all this stuff sounds kind

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Speaker 2: of familiar, and we all know, like I mean, or

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Speaker 2: maybe we don't, but Valhalla was like the Viking equivalent

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Speaker 2: of Heaven. It was a place that you went to

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Speaker 2: and that was your goal. I valiantly in battle, and

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Speaker 2: that was your reward. You'd go to Valhalla, this great

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Speaker 2: feast hall where there it would be just like they'd

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Speaker 2: give you like mead and pork and you'd like party

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Speaker 2: all day. And in the original pros Eda, there is

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Speaker 2: a poem, no, not a poem, it's like a piece

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Speaker 2: of writing called the Guild Beginning, which is this description

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Speaker 2: of how the gods came to be and who Odin

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Speaker 2: was and some of the most famous myths. And it's

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Speaker 2: only our really account that we have of it, and

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Speaker 2: it's structured in this very odd way where it is

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Speaker 2: this Swedish king named Guilfi who has come to Valhalla

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Speaker 2: and he's being addressed by these three kings who are

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Speaker 2: seated in thrones, one atop each other, and their names

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Speaker 2: are High, just As High and Third. And it's such

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Speaker 2: a weird element. And I'm like, when you read these stories,

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Speaker 2: you get to know these guys. I've never seen them

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Speaker 2: include in this So I wanted Odin to be narrated

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Speaker 2: by High just as High and Third to give you

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Speaker 2: a feel of this original text. And of course High

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Speaker 2: just as High and Third are more than you know,

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Speaker 2: and like by the I won't reveal the spoilers when

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Speaker 2: they revealed to be who they really are.

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Speaker 3: I loved High just as High and Third, and I

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Speaker 3: have to say they reminded me quite a bit in

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Speaker 3: the book of the various like EC comics characters that

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Speaker 3: you would have YES storytellers like Crip Keeper and Old Witch,

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Speaker 3: or DC storytellers like canaan Abel.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that was absolutely an influence of that. You know,

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Speaker 2: you go to the original version and they're a little

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Speaker 2: bit more interchangeable. You don't really get a sense of

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Speaker 2: their personalities. But because I was having these three narrators

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Speaker 2: appear on frame, I wanted them to show different aspects

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Speaker 2: of the stories being told, and so you like, for instance,

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Speaker 2: I feel like the names themselves are hilarious. First one

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Speaker 2: is named High. He's a high king. That makes sense.

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Speaker 2: Second one is just as High. It's like, Okay, I

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Speaker 2: see you're going for a theme here. You're all equal.

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Speaker 2: Third guys just like I'm third, It's like, what are

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Speaker 2: you doing? But just as High. I felt like he

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Speaker 2: was more snarky. He was the middle one, and him

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Speaker 2: an appearance. If you look at old illuminated manuscripts, that

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Speaker 2: would be the place that we rescued these stories from.

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Speaker 2: That's the only way they were recorded. Like sometimes there's

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Speaker 2: drawings of Odin and Loki in the borders that look

362
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Speaker 2: like this, where he's almost like a clownish figure. And

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Speaker 2: then the character of High, the first narrator to meet

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Speaker 2: his mask. They're all masked, I should say, is based

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Speaker 2: on a burial mask of an actual Viking chieftain. And

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Speaker 2: the third one he's kind of based on another different

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Speaker 2: mask that was recovered. He's more of a traveler figure.

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Speaker 2: They're all like giving different aspects of the personality of

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Speaker 2: the god who's being featured in this book, which is Odin.

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Speaker 3: Now you touched on the issue with the sources the

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Speaker 3: two ducks, right, they're sometimes described as ducks.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really obscure that you found that one, but yes.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I guess I was. I was curious to

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Speaker 3: hear a little bit more about the creative challenges of

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Speaker 3: not only stitching together some of these like various mysteries

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Speaker 3: and the text and things that are missing, like for instance,

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Speaker 3: Odin's brothers that come up and then just vanish. But

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Speaker 3: then also, I know you you discussed this in the

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Speaker 3: Norse Code section of the book, some of the choices

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Speaker 3: you had to make visually, and you know that where

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Speaker 3: you know it's it's more about like what can you

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Speaker 3: do that is different within like your own visual storytelling,

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Speaker 3: even going back through through Olympians.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so for those of Norse Code is a section

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Speaker 2: that I have at the back of each of the

386
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Speaker 2: as Guardians. The kind of it's almost like the DVD

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Speaker 2: extras or the director's commentary for the book. I kind

388
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,520
Speaker 2: of go in there. Sometimes it uses to make cheap jokes,

389
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Speaker 2: but sometimes you just explain some of the processes behind

390
00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:56,760
Speaker 2: the different choices I made in depicting the stories. This way,

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00:20:57,320 --> 00:21:00,440
Speaker 2: it's the it's the answer to an Olympians. It as

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00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:02,800
Speaker 2: the geek notes with it was spelled Greek with an

393
00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:06,120
Speaker 2: R crossed out. Just kind of a way of kind

394
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Speaker 2: of like sharing a little bit more of the details

395
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,639
Speaker 2: of like just the utter geekery that I find in

396
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Speaker 2: these stories, and with the challenge in doing something like

397
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:21,160
Speaker 2: as Guardians is it's both a challenge and sometimes an aid. Right,

398
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Speaker 2: there is so many gaps in our knowledge, and it

399
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:31,240
Speaker 2: can be very frustrating. I was just you know, there's

400
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Speaker 2: the concept. Here's my favorite example, the concept of the

401
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:40,160
Speaker 2: nine worlds of Norse mythology. So the central like you know,

402
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:43,639
Speaker 2: image of like the way that the cosmos was assembled

403
00:21:44,040 --> 00:21:46,960
Speaker 2: in the Norse worldview was there was a world tree

404
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,359
Speaker 2: called Ignita Sail. It was a giant ash tree that

405
00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:52,960
Speaker 2: had spread out over the cosmos and had roots in

406
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,520
Speaker 2: three different worlds and had the other worlds assembled around

407
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 2: its branches. It's mentioned in multiple sources these nine worlds,

408
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,240
Speaker 2: but nothing that survives tells us exactly what the nine

409
00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:06,600
Speaker 2: worlds are. We just know that there are nine. So

410
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Speaker 2: one of the first things you have to do whenever

411
00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:11,440
Speaker 2: you're working on a series like as Guardians or any

412
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:15,000
Speaker 2: retelling is decide am I going to address this concept

413
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:18,239
Speaker 2: that appears it's important? How am I going to do this?

414
00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,720
Speaker 2: I had to go and do my own research and

415
00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 2: decision making as to what these nine worlds would be,

416
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Speaker 2: which ones would they be? Because we never really know.

417
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,919
Speaker 2: There's other stuff. Like you mentioned, Odin has two brothers

418
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Speaker 2: who figure very prominently in the creation. It's Villie and

419
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:36,879
Speaker 2: Vi who just kind of disappear. We don't know. And

420
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:39,600
Speaker 2: it's probable if I was somebody who believed in these

421
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 2: gods who worship them, there's probably a story that explains

422
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 2: that you probably understand completely, but it just drops. So

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00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 2: from a modern storytelling sensibility, it can be very difficult

424
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Speaker 2: to be like, how am I going to address this

425
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 2: just weird thread where we have characters who are shaping

426
00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,399
Speaker 2: up to be I mean, they're co creators of the universe,

427
00:22:59,440 --> 00:23:02,000
Speaker 2: but the main guy who then just absolutely one hundred

428
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 2: percent disappear from the narrative. That could be tricky. It

429
00:23:05,520 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 2: also is nice and that it does give you room

430
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:12,879
Speaker 2: to play in. This is across both series as Guardians Olympians,

431
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 2: there's been instances where I have roomed well, not just

432
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 2: that as a storyteller, like the delayres before me, it's

433
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 2: absolutely imperative that you put your own spin on any story. Otherwise,

434
00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:26,280
Speaker 2: what are you doing there. You're interpreting it, you're focusing

435
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 2: it through your own experiences, your own point of views.

436
00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,640
Speaker 2: You're telling a story, and that's your job. And sometimes

437
00:23:32,720 --> 00:23:35,480
Speaker 2: it's nice to have those gaps. And sometimes when the

438
00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:39,080
Speaker 2: gaps are as big as like, we don't know who

439
00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,600
Speaker 2: this can We don't even know one hundred percent if

440
00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:44,359
Speaker 2: the goddess is Freya and Frig are the same person

441
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,840
Speaker 2: or not, Like that's annoying. Like so it was a

442
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:51,800
Speaker 2: lot of this going back and forth about like the

443
00:23:51,920 --> 00:23:53,919
Speaker 2: nature of the world, the nature of the story is

444
00:23:53,920 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 2: going to tell it had to make some fundamental decisions

445
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 2: right off the bat. Actually, this is kind of fun.

446
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 2: So in Norse mythology, one of the key events in

447
00:24:04,800 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 2: the history of the world is the First War, and

448
00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 2: it's a war between the Asir and the Vanir. The

449
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,200
Speaker 2: Asir are the gods who occupy Asgard. Asgard literally means

450
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:19,400
Speaker 2: stronghold of the Sir and their number Odin is their chieftain.

451
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:23,480
Speaker 2: Frig is one of the Asir thor Haim dials. Normally,

452
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 2: a lot of the gods you know, are the Asir,

453
00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 2: and at some point in their history, early on, they

454
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 2: encounter gods from another world, from Vanaheim. It's one of

455
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 2: most people count as well. The Nine Worlds and the

456
00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,680
Speaker 2: Veneer are different gods, and we never really learn all

457
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:43,560
Speaker 2: that much about them. We know they're gifted and prophecy.

458
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 2: There may be less warlike than the Asir. They seem

459
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 2: to maybe be associated with agriculture. And there's this battle

460
00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 2: that they have and at the end of the battle

461
00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 2: which seems like the Veneer actually win because they you know,

462
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 2: they could see what coming. There is an exchange of hostages,

463
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:07,320
Speaker 2: which doesn't mean the same thing. Back then, it was

464
00:25:07,320 --> 00:25:09,480
Speaker 2: more like, think of distinguished guests. In order to keep

465
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 2: the peace, two as Guardians went to Vanier, Honier and

466
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 2: Momir Mimir, and then three of the Vanir come to Asgard, Freya,

467
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:25,080
Speaker 2: her twin brother Frey, and their father Innured. Now this

468
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:26,920
Speaker 2: is where it gets interesting, to be like this whole

469
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,240
Speaker 2: idea of these gaps, right, I mentioned offhand, we're not

470
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,360
Speaker 2: even sure if Freya and Frigg are distinct goddesses. Frig

471
00:25:34,960 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 2: is the queen of Odin of the Aussier. She's one

472
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 2: of my favorite characters. There's this amazing line about her,

473
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:44,439
Speaker 2: I think I have it, oh open her up to

474
00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 2: it in the Guild Beginning where frig is Odin's wife,

475
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 2: she knows the fates of men, even though she pronounces

476
00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,639
Speaker 2: no prophecies, like she knows all that's going to happen.

477
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 2: She's actually smarter than Odin, and Odin's whole struggle for

478
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:02,639
Speaker 2: knowledge is partially because he could sense this grief in

479
00:26:02,680 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 2: her and he's trying to he It drives him nuts

480
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 2: that she knows the stuff and she won't say she

481
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 2: is somebody who understands the way fate works, even though

482
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 2: she does attempt to buckle it in some ways. Now

483
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,680
Speaker 2: among the goddesses that come over from the Veneer is Freya,

484
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 2: very famous goddess. Freya also has the ability to see

485
00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 2: the future. Freya has a husband named Ode. Like od

486
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:28,879
Speaker 2: and Ode and Freya and like people like this is

487
00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 2: the same thing, and it's it's very odd, and my

488
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,640
Speaker 2: take on it is I think the user Vener War

489
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:40,240
Speaker 2: is probably a myth that came about when the group

490
00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,640
Speaker 2: of ancient Norse people or Icelandic people Scandinavians will say

491
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 2: who worshiped the sir met a related group of people

492
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 2: who worshiped the pretty much the same pantheon under slightly

493
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:53,440
Speaker 2: different names. Think of like the way the Greeks and

494
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,320
Speaker 2: the Romans worshiped the same gods. They had a fight.

495
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 2: They kind of came together as a group of people exchange,

496
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 2: you know, people intermarried, but for whatever reason, instead of

497
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,040
Speaker 2: the gods becoming fully assimilated, they kept them as two

498
00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:08,400
Speaker 2: separate gods. Because Freya and frig are clearly the same

499
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 2: goddess Odin, Odin are definitely the same god, and there's

500
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 2: other similarities. And so I kind of treat it without

501
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 2: ever saying it using my superhero logic. I feel like

502
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 2: Vanaheim is kind of like the Earth Too version of Asgard,

503
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 2: where it's like an alternate dimension version where like these

504
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,399
Speaker 2: are like the like you know, the multiverse type stuff.

505
00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 2: So I like, this is the version of the god,

506
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:36,640
Speaker 2: and like it's using that superhero comics logic to kind

507
00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 2: of explain these these bigger mythologies.

508
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I absolutely love love the way you handle it. Yeah,

509
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 3: it did. And at the same time, like I know,

510
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:47,119
Speaker 3: I know you're explaining like the superhero logic of it,

511
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 3: and all I don't want to I don't want to

512
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 3: give the impression to the listeners that it that it

513
00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 3: is like like old timey Marvel comics and its presentations

514
00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,280
Speaker 3: is because the way you present it it does come

515
00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 3: off as is very surreal and uh an alien in

516
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 3: a way that that I feel like a lot of

517
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 3: the Norse mythology feels to me when I encounter it's

518
00:28:08,640 --> 00:28:13,240
Speaker 3: it's yeah, it's details like it's it's a you know,

519
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,239
Speaker 3: a religion and in a mythology that is it is

520
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 3: so distant from from what I know, and and yet

521
00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:22,880
Speaker 3: it has this richness to it.

522
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 2: Thanks. Yeah, yeah, it's there's a superior logic underlying it,

523
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 2: but it's definitely not. It doesn't mean like a supero

524
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:30,600
Speaker 2: story that is interesting what you hit on there. There

525
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 2: is something about the Norse mythology and it's one of

526
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,440
Speaker 2: things that interests me so much Greek mythology. Having done

527
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 2: the whole series in Olympians, there's some big differences between

528
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 2: the way we think and the way ancient Greeks think,

529
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 2: but there's an underlying familial similarity. Like I A would say,

530
00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 2: the reason we love the Olympians still is there just

531
00:28:50,320 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 2: an abstraction of a big, crazy family. Like even though

532
00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 2: they're gods and they behave terribly, they're very relatable in

533
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 2: a way, like there is some stuff that happens in

534
00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 2: the Norse. There is just a basic underlying thing that's

535
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 2: just it is a bit more alien, I think if

536
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:09,080
Speaker 2: you just look at their their idea of the ideal afterlife.

537
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 2: I mentioned Valhalla. If you die of old age, of

538
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 2: sickness any other ways than battle, you don't get to

539
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 2: go to Valhalla. Valhalla was like the reward you would

540
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 2: get for dying in battle. And moreover, you would go

541
00:29:24,680 --> 00:29:27,200
Speaker 2: to Valhalla, and like I said, you would be fed

542
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:30,200
Speaker 2: on pork and drink meat all day, which maybe sounds

543
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 2: pretty nice day and day out. But every night these

544
00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 2: warriors would get up and hack each other to pieces,

545
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:40,880
Speaker 2: like and like that was your eternal battle, was your reward,

546
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,320
Speaker 2: and that you would be like, yay, that was great battle.

547
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,720
Speaker 2: Could they would be reborn in the morning and so

548
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 2: you wake up and you'd be like, that was great.

549
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 2: The way I cut that guy into pieces the night

550
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 2: before and then my head was lopped off, Like this

551
00:29:51,640 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 2: was like the idea, Like that's most people would not

552
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 2: find that to be the idea of heaven, and I

553
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 2: feel like that just says like how very different Norse

554
00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 2: mythology is from our standard, like our way of being.

555
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 2: Now I'm working in a book now, the third book

556
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:08,360
Speaker 2: in the series. I'm currently writing it, and there is

557
00:30:08,400 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 2: a character, a mythological character who previously had been blinded,

558
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,040
Speaker 2: and the gods talk about that like this is a shame,

559
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 2: like he lost his eyesight in battle, but like that's

560
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 2: something that's just like it's too bad you weren't killed,

561
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 2: like and that's not the way that we would view this.

562
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 2: And like there's also the story of the god Tyr,

563
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 2: the god of war, who when they bind Fenri of

564
00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:32,760
Speaker 2: the Wolf, he actually sacrifices his hand so that in

565
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:34,840
Speaker 2: order to get this wolf, Like the wolf's like, eh,

566
00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 2: you're obviously trying to bind me, and they're like, oh no, look,

567
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,000
Speaker 2: Tyr will stick his hand in your mouth and if

568
00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 2: he can't break the chain, we'll let you go. And

569
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:42,880
Speaker 2: if we don't, you could bite his hand off. And

570
00:30:43,280 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 2: he can't break the chain, they don't let him go,

571
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:48,240
Speaker 2: so he bites off Tyr's hand and when you realize

572
00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:50,480
Speaker 2: Tyr is their god of war for him to lose

573
00:30:50,520 --> 00:30:55,320
Speaker 2: his sword arm like that that's an amazing sacrifice. And

574
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:59,800
Speaker 2: it's it's interesting you see this character like these these

575
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 2: the of like just like what did that mean to them?

576
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 2: Come up with these stories, and I'm trying to use

577
00:31:04,360 --> 00:31:06,479
Speaker 2: as guardians to kind of explore more than just like

578
00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 2: just the event of a god getting his hand bit

579
00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 2: off or another god getting blinded, Like what did that

580
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 2: mean in the larger family of the gods? What did

581
00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,000
Speaker 2: that mean if you were an ancient Scandinavian who these

582
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 2: are your deities? What did it mean that your god

583
00:31:19,320 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 2: of war was suddenly without his sword arm?

584
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, And speaking of you know, some of these

585
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 3: examples of bloodshed and violence, I want to mention one

586
00:31:30,800 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 3: of the things that I really love about Odin and

587
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 3: also the Olympian series, and is that So these are

588
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 3: books that I think if you like look him up

589
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 3: on Amazon, they say nine years to fourteen years is

590
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 3: like the reading range, And of course I would stress that, Yeah,

591
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 3: I read them and I ritually enjoyed them, so you

592
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,000
Speaker 3: don't need to stop reading them at fourteen. But my

593
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 3: son read them very much in that in that frame

594
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 3: of ages, and I'd really appreciated the way that you were.

595
00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 3: You didn't sugarcoat anything. You like, the gods of the

596
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 3: Greek pantheon are are still problematic in your in your work,

597
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,360
Speaker 3: and you explore that, you you know, you get into

598
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 3: this realm of of not only like heroes the anti

599
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 3: heroes in partiction, but potentially villains in the guise of heroes.

600
00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, you and I had spoke previously one time

601
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:23,480
Speaker 2: about my take of theseus. The hero of the quote

602
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:26,959
Speaker 2: unquote hero of the Minotaur story, who you know, he

603
00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 2: kills the minotaur, and my taken him as I wrote

604
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 2: him as a villain, like the sugar coating of stories

605
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 2: of Greek mythology. I feel like there could be no

606
00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:38,680
Speaker 2: greater disservice or mistake that you do to mythology to

607
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,680
Speaker 2: do that. These stories often are produced for a younger

608
00:32:42,720 --> 00:32:45,480
Speaker 2: audience in our day and age, but they were meant

609
00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 2: These were not just stories meant as entertainment for the

610
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 2: ancient peoples that believed in them. These are stories that

611
00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 2: explain the world around them. And like, if you're removing

612
00:32:53,200 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 2: an element that is problematic by today's standards, you're kind

613
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,480
Speaker 2: of inextricably altering the story in a way that's you

614
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:04,280
Speaker 2: might as well be telling that particular story. The way

615
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 2: I've always handled it is I try it's all in there.

616
00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 2: I just try not to be explicit about it. You know,

617
00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 2: if there's a horrible dismemberment, I might not show it

618
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,719
Speaker 2: as much as much as like, you know, kind of

619
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 2: artfully showing a bit of it in the shadow or

620
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,840
Speaker 2: off panel or with gruesome sound effects. I think it's

621
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:28,960
Speaker 2: from growing up watching a movie like Alien where you

622
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 2: never actually see the creature. It's so much more scary

623
00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 2: that way. Like, I really do believe that. I know

624
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 2: it's almost hackneyed to say it, but like your imagination

625
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 2: is going to concoct something so much more gruesome than

626
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:47,760
Speaker 2: even the most talented and gifted artist. Like so, storytelling,

627
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 2: especially comics, I strongly believe, is a very collaborative effort,

628
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 2: not just in the fact that many comics are produced

629
00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 2: by many people, but it's very much a collaboration with

630
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 2: the audience. A series of illustrations and words placed around

631
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 2: the illustrations, and if you do the magic right, it

632
00:34:08,640 --> 00:34:11,760
Speaker 2: comes together in the alchemy that it should. The reader

633
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 2: brings the story to life in their brain like it

634
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,319
Speaker 2: plays like a movie, and they'll read extra stuff into it.

635
00:34:17,320 --> 00:34:19,399
Speaker 2: They'll fill in cracks that you don't even have there.

636
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 2: And it also makes for comics to be such an

637
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:28,120
Speaker 2: amazingly versatile storytelling medium, like you were saying, these were

638
00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:31,840
Speaker 2: you know, Amazon says these are nine to fourteen, but

639
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:34,760
Speaker 2: you know a lot of adults read them too, because

640
00:34:34,760 --> 00:34:37,360
Speaker 2: you can write on so many different levels with comics.

641
00:34:37,360 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 2: It's like, you know, you tell one story at the words,

642
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,200
Speaker 2: one story at the pictures. They come together depending what

643
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:45,399
Speaker 2: you bring as a reader, you're going to bring all

644
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,360
Speaker 2: different levels. I could write some very adult stuff in

645
00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:51,200
Speaker 2: n as Guardians or Olympians, and just by phrasing it

646
00:34:51,239 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 2: in the right way, no kid will ever get exactly

647
00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:55,480
Speaker 2: what I'm saying, but an adult picks up on it

648
00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 2: immediately like, oh okay, I see what's going on there,

649
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 2: and that's I think that's what the magics about comics.

650
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 2: And as somebody who grew up reading comics and you

651
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:08,240
Speaker 2: would read them over and over again, a good comic

652
00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 2: is designed, in my opinion, to be read multiple times

653
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,040
Speaker 2: because of those different elements that make up the page.

654
00:35:14,120 --> 00:35:16,120
Speaker 2: Like the first time you read it, you probably focus

655
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 2: mostly on the words, because you know, why wouldn't you.

656
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 2: But then you read it a second time, and you're

657
00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 2: gonna already have a general sense of what those words say,

658
00:35:24,040 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 2: and you're going to pay more attention to the illustrations

659
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,000
Speaker 2: that the words are embedded in, and like the third

660
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,120
Speaker 2: and fourth time you read it, it's when that that

661
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 2: real magic starts happening, when like everything starts coming together

662
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 2: and swirling. You're noticing little details you never noticed before,

663
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,919
Speaker 2: and it's it's one of the things I think makes

664
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 2: comics so wonderful.

665
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. I remember when when my son was first reading

666
00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 3: your Olympians books, he would actually the first past of

667
00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 3: the book, he would just look at the pictures and

668
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:52,000
Speaker 3: then he will and then he would do the text.

669
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:54,560
Speaker 3: And I think now it's it's more of a normal

670
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 3: or not normal. There's no normal way, I guess to

671
00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:58,759
Speaker 3: read comic book, but I think now it's more of

672
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:01,080
Speaker 3: a balanced way where he's he's reading through it with

673
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 3: images and the text, and then I don't know what

674
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 3: the subsequent re reads are like.

675
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, it's just it's probably different each time

676
00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 2: because you have the two different pillars coming together to

677
00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 2: make a third. You know now that you mention it.

678
00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 2: When I was a kid, and I got a comic,

679
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 2: especially with someone who's waiting for like part two or

680
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 2: part three of a story. First time would just be

681
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 2: a frantic flip through to see the pictures, like what's

682
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,240
Speaker 2: good on, what's going on? Oh my god, what's happening there?

683
00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:26,480
Speaker 2: And then you would go back and read it again

684
00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,800
Speaker 2: and just you got to hope that the story matches

685
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,279
Speaker 2: what you made up in your head, and that first

686
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 2: pass through. Yeah.

687
00:36:31,760 --> 00:36:34,799
Speaker 3: Yeah. In my own experience, I find that, Yeah, sometimes

688
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,560
Speaker 3: I'll be reading a comic book and I don't read

689
00:36:37,600 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 3: as many as I imagine a lot of folks out there,

690
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 3: but occasionally dip into the comic books, and you know,

691
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,359
Speaker 3: there'll be times where I feel like it's more the

692
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 3: text pulling me along than the images. Sometimes it's the

693
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 3: detriment of the images, which are often like really great,

694
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 3: Like I think back to the Alan Moore Swamp things books, like,

695
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 3: sometimes yeah, the pros is so good, like that's what's

696
00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 3: pulling me, and I don't have to either like sort

697
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 3: of slow down or go back and reread it so

698
00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:05,359
Speaker 3: I can appreciate the visuals as well.

699
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 2: Alan Moore is a prime example of somebody whose books

700
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,960
Speaker 2: you need to multiple times. I think he very often

701
00:37:11,120 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 2: writes an opposite text from what's being depicted in the pictures.

702
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:19,839
Speaker 2: You know, his famous graphic novel Watchmen. There's so much

703
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 2: of that where if you were only to read Watchmen,

704
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,319
Speaker 2: you would definitely not get the entire story because so

705
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 2: often what Dave Gibbons is doing in the art is

706
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 2: showing something very different than what's being shown just in

707
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,839
Speaker 2: the words, and that's you know, there's not really too

708
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:37,399
Speaker 2: many art forms that have that, especially in the printed word.

709
00:37:37,960 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 2: Comics are that's kind of a storytelling style that they

710
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 2: have a lockdown that no one else can really touch.

711
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:47,200
Speaker 2: You can't really do that with just pros.

712
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:49,959
Speaker 3: I really liked your point about the two pillars coming

713
00:37:49,960 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 3: together in a third because it's like, I know this

714
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 3: is the kay, I know that there, you know, there's

715
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,600
Speaker 3: the with just an unillustrated book that there is of

716
00:37:58,600 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 3: course the text, and there's the image the forms in

717
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 3: my mind, and then recollection of all of this. And

718
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 3: then with a film too, we can often find ourselves

719
00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:11,040
Speaker 3: misremembering or re capitulating things that happened or didn't happen

720
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 3: in the film. But with comics it's kind of like

721
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,399
Speaker 3: i'd never really thought about that that third pillar coming

722
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 3: together based on the images and the because it's almost like, well,

723
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 3: it's all there. You have a perfect record of what

724
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 3: you should be thinking and visualizing, but it's not quite

725
00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 3: the case.

726
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:27,759
Speaker 2: The one thing I've heard about comics too, and I

727
00:38:27,800 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 2: agree with this, that you could do that makes them

728
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:32,680
Speaker 2: very different than say a movie, because movies words and

729
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,880
Speaker 2: pictures coming together too. Comics it is there all at once,

730
00:38:36,040 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 2: like you know, you can flip through like one at

731
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 2: a time and a panel on an e reader, but

732
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:44,879
Speaker 2: often it's just you're if the way it's presented, you're

733
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:48,680
Speaker 2: seeing like an entire page or entire spread laid out

734
00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 2: at once, and there's things as a creator I could do.

735
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 2: I try to keep big reveals for page turns, so

736
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 2: that if like a character reveals their identity, you don't

737
00:38:56,800 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 2: see in the middle of the page. It's like you

738
00:38:58,520 --> 00:39:01,080
Speaker 2: turn the page just to keep that secret a little

739
00:39:01,120 --> 00:39:03,279
Speaker 2: bit longer, because yeah, you flip that page and you

740
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 2: get a weird sense and you can move back and

741
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 2: forth in time so easy in comics like oh what

742
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 2: does this reference to? Let me flip back a couple

743
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:11,839
Speaker 2: of pages. I mean, you could watch a movie that way,

744
00:39:11,880 --> 00:39:14,279
Speaker 2: but it's gonna be unpleasant by Bay sitting there with

745
00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 2: you watching it.

746
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 3: So coming back to Odin, yeah, there's again there's a

747
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 3: lot of weird, wonderful things and terrifying things that happen

748
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 3: on the page here that you adapted from the Norse sources.

749
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 3: Were what was the weirdest and most challenging odentic myth

750
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:43,040
Speaker 3: that you had to tackle here?

751
00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:47,400
Speaker 2: Oooh wow, that's like a good question. We talked a

752
00:39:47,400 --> 00:39:49,440
Speaker 2: little bit about, like just the creation of the world

753
00:39:49,520 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 2: aspect can be pretty weird because it's just like where

754
00:39:52,080 --> 00:39:56,319
Speaker 2: are you like the elements coming onto that are just

755
00:39:56,360 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 2: so odd. But I think probably from my money, the

756
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:03,479
Speaker 2: one that was the most challenging in a way is

757
00:40:03,560 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 2: when Odin sacrifices himself on the tree igdocil So. In

758
00:40:09,360 --> 00:40:13,080
Speaker 2: his ongoing attempts for knowledge through his encounter in the

759
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:17,160
Speaker 2: Asir Vanir War, through his encounters, what he perceives in Frig,

760
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 2: what he has picked up from talking to Freya, who

761
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,400
Speaker 2: shows him just a little bit, he knows there is

762
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:25,399
Speaker 2: a great doom coming upon the gods. It's a very

763
00:40:25,400 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 2: personal doom for him too, and he wants to find

764
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,440
Speaker 2: a way to learn more, and so he hangs himself

765
00:40:31,480 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 2: on the tree like literally the gallows sort of stuff.

766
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 2: One of his titles, by the way, like a cultic

767
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,000
Speaker 2: title for him, was the Gallows God. He was very

768
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:44,839
Speaker 2: much associated with the hanged figure sometimes that people would

769
00:40:44,840 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 2: actually think the Norse would actually sacrifice to Odin by

770
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,440
Speaker 2: hanging a person like that was it was a thing

771
00:40:50,480 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 2: they did. Odin subjects us to himself in a way

772
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,280
Speaker 2: to sort of have the hidden language of the universe

773
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 2: revealed to him, which is the ruins. We all know

774
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:03,160
Speaker 2: what uns or we've seen them, and it comes to

775
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 2: him in kind of like a spirit quest. So me

776
00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:10,720
Speaker 2: talking about that, that doesn't sound like it's maybe that hard,

777
00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:16,719
Speaker 2: But for somebody, I'm crafting something I want someone to

778
00:41:16,760 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 2: be entertained by, and it's gonna it's like seven or

779
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,400
Speaker 2: eight pages of just a man being hanged by the

780
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 2: neck and what he's seeing. What is that famous? There's

781
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:31,279
Speaker 2: that famous Twilight Zone episode where the guy is just

782
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:33,400
Speaker 2: being hanged the entire time and at the end it

783
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 2: reveals spoilers that he like everything he dreams, like he

784
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 2: dreams he breaks down off the noose and he goes

785
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:43,480
Speaker 2: back to his family and at the end he dies.

786
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 2: It's like Odin having this out of body experience the

787
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 2: entire time where he's just seeing stuff like I actually

788
00:41:50,000 --> 00:41:53,360
Speaker 2: have him see the Norns, who are the equivalent of

789
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:58,280
Speaker 2: the Fates from Greek mythology. They were figures that would

790
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 2: tell you the future, and they veel the secret of

791
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 2: the Nords to him. And so the imagery for this

792
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 2: is actually, for the most part straightforward. It's just it's

793
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:09,640
Speaker 2: finding a way to show such a static scene for

794
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,359
Speaker 2: so long and have it still be interesting. And yeah,

795
00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:17,040
Speaker 2: this is an example of using those two pillars the

796
00:42:17,040 --> 00:42:20,000
Speaker 2: words in the pictures. Sometimes you could just pull back

797
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,399
Speaker 2: and hold on a dramatic shot of him, a lot

798
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:25,799
Speaker 2: of extreme close ups showing some of the acting of

799
00:42:25,800 --> 00:42:28,880
Speaker 2: what he's going through through his facial features some of it,

800
00:42:28,920 --> 00:42:32,239
Speaker 2: and what's being in his internal monologue, some of what's

801
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,040
Speaker 2: being said by the people who are observing him. That

802
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:37,359
Speaker 2: was actually a tricky scene I remember playing with because

803
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 2: it could become a real boring slog for reader if

804
00:42:40,160 --> 00:42:43,719
Speaker 2: you're not careful, and it ends up being Having just

805
00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:48,680
Speaker 2: reread the book myself recently, which is always weird. I'm

806
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 2: always in a bit of a fugue state when I

807
00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:52,880
Speaker 2: make these things, so I'm always like, oh, that's interesting.

808
00:42:53,239 --> 00:42:55,520
Speaker 2: I was quite pleased with the way that sequence came out.

809
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, and you have capturing everything you just said, but

810
00:42:59,239 --> 00:43:02,120
Speaker 3: on top of that not being overtly grim or anything

811
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:06,400
Speaker 3: as well. It despite being like a grim sequence.

812
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:10,239
Speaker 2: In the text, it's it's driven by that curiosity. Like

813
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:13,680
Speaker 2: I find Odin to be a very relatable and interesting

814
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,719
Speaker 2: character that way, because his whole thing is like, it

815
00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:18,960
Speaker 2: doesn't matter what knowledge will cost him, he will do

816
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 2: anything for knowledge. I did have some fun with the

817
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:26,400
Speaker 2: visuals in that. So in my previous series Olympians, I

818
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:30,040
Speaker 2: mentioned there's the characters, the moree the fates who we know,

819
00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 2: you know, if the fates allow sort of sa thing.

820
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:36,359
Speaker 2: And in Greek mythology they were depicted as typically as

821
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:39,880
Speaker 2: three women wearing robes, three young women. That's the way

822
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:41,640
Speaker 2: you'd see and that's pretty much I did too. You

823
00:43:41,680 --> 00:43:43,360
Speaker 2: never see their faces, they're just you see like the

824
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 2: botom half their faces, and the norns from Norse mythology

825
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:51,839
Speaker 2: are often depicted exactly the same. It's a good time

826
00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 2: to mention there's a lot of overlap between Norse and

827
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 2: Greek mythology, and especially because we got Norse mythology in

828
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 2: such an incomplete state. I think a lot of what

829
00:44:01,080 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 2: was well known in the world about Greek mythology was

830
00:44:03,560 --> 00:44:06,920
Speaker 2: imprinted in Norse mythology. So I didn't want to just

831
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 2: repeat the same character designs that did occur to me,

832
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 2: Like how fun would that be. It's like, hey, look,

833
00:44:11,200 --> 00:44:15,000
Speaker 2: it's the Fates from as Guardian from Olympians. I actually

834
00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 2: designed them to look like the bog people, you know

835
00:44:19,560 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 2: throughout Europe, specifically you know in the more pad areas

836
00:44:24,160 --> 00:44:26,440
Speaker 2: there have been. They just found it really cool. On

837
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 2: the other day, where there are preserved bodies, ancient bodies

838
00:44:30,600 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 2: that were like preserved in peat moss because of the

839
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 2: high acidic content of the swamps, and the bodies will

840
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 2: still have their skin intact. They'll have like a somewhat

841
00:44:39,239 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 2: skeletal appearance, but like they'll still have skin that look

842
00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 2: like they're made of like tanned leather, and elements like

843
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 2: their clothing will still be preserved, tattoos, sometimes facial features

844
00:44:49,920 --> 00:44:53,960
Speaker 2: depending And that was such an interesting European idea that like,

845
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 2: I actually made my norms look like they were the

846
00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:00,759
Speaker 2: bog people. Just thought was something that helped to extinguish extinguished,

847
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:04,720
Speaker 2: helped it to distinguish them from their Grecian counterparts.

848
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, I love that detail. Now here's another

849
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,200
Speaker 3: just sort of I don't know, technical and or creative

850
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:16,800
Speaker 3: question about putting together comic book. How does like color

851
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:21,279
Speaker 3: palette factor into your choices in specific color choices, but

852
00:45:21,320 --> 00:45:23,840
Speaker 3: just sort of like the overall color scheme for a

853
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:24,480
Speaker 3: given work.

854
00:45:25,640 --> 00:45:28,560
Speaker 2: Oh wow, I want to say. I feel like color

855
00:45:28,680 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 2: is super important and at points in the history of

856
00:45:32,120 --> 00:45:36,520
Speaker 2: comics was an undervalued part to the actual feel of

857
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 2: a comic. With Olympians, I did all the colors myself.

858
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 2: Olympians was such a near and dear project in my heart,

859
00:45:45,280 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 2: and I was so I joke about being in control,

860
00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:52,880
Speaker 2: freaking that there was such specific ways I wanted to

861
00:45:52,920 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 2: depict things that I colored that myself, and that did

862
00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:00,279
Speaker 2: take a lot of time. And with as Guardians, I

863
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 2: wanted to be able to branch out. I wanted to

864
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 2: be able to share, like I wanted to be able

865
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 2: to do other things. I wanted not to be like

866
00:46:08,040 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 2: breaking myself creating these books. And I also I kind

867
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:13,360
Speaker 2: of realized I'm not maybe the best colors in the

868
00:46:13,360 --> 00:46:16,480
Speaker 2: world I had some good ideas about color theory, but

869
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 2: sometimes my execution I felt could be a little bit flat.

870
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 2: So for Odin, we actually, for the first time I

871
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,280
Speaker 2: worked with an outside colorist on one of these books.

872
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 2: It was this very talented cartoonist named Norm Grock. You

873
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:30,800
Speaker 2: could look him up Grock. He does his own stuff,

874
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 2: and he worked. I would write him such long notes

875
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 2: about like what the color should be, because it did

876
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 2: mean a lot the specific ideas behind each scene. And

877
00:46:42,120 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 2: one of the things I had told him in establishing

878
00:46:45,160 --> 00:46:47,720
Speaker 2: this world is I never want to see a blue

879
00:46:47,719 --> 00:46:52,799
Speaker 2: sky in as Guardians. It's always either overcast, magic hour

880
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 2: or night, and that's the only encounters we have because

881
00:46:57,000 --> 00:47:00,400
Speaker 2: that reflects the world that the Norse lived in. I mean,

882
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 2: there are blue skies, to be sure in Norway occasionally,

883
00:47:02,840 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 2: but it's not the image I wanted to depict here, right.

884
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 2: Sometimes I would do rough colors just to show him,

885
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 2: like in the instance of the marshmallow Man emre hermaphroditic giant,

886
00:47:15,480 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 2: that was he was like, I have no idea how

887
00:47:17,239 --> 00:47:19,839
Speaker 2: to color this. I'm like, this is he should look

888
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:23,560
Speaker 2: like this? And it was specifics, like I wanted certain

889
00:47:23,600 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 2: things that were very important to me in the myths.

890
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 2: I wanted Thor to have red hair. I wanted Odin

891
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:33,839
Speaker 2: to have brown hair with gray streaks, and we use

892
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 2: that actually to show his age because a big difference

893
00:47:36,080 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 2: between Greek gods and as Guardian gods is they the

894
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 2: Norse gods do age at a slower rate. But there

895
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 2: was so many you could use the color in so

896
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:48,960
Speaker 2: many different ways. Just about the mood. I don't know,

897
00:47:49,360 --> 00:47:51,239
Speaker 2: that is a fun question. I'm glad we actually got

898
00:47:51,239 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 2: to mention that.

899
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:55,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the giant because he

900
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:57,600
Speaker 3: had the coloration that you end up going with here.

901
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 3: It is you know, it's pale but a little bit

902
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 3: like pink, but like so it doesn't feel like a corpse,

903
00:48:04,520 --> 00:48:08,560
Speaker 3: but it doesn't feel completely alive. Like there's a nice,

904
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,480
Speaker 3: wonderful inter zone that is creative here with the colors game.

905
00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was trying to go for a few things

906
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 2: with Emir, Like I wanted him to look half formed,

907
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 2: like you picked up on. He's also kind of created

908
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 2: from ice, so I wanted to have the ice thing.

909
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 2: I'm saying he, I should be saying they. Emir is

910
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:32,800
Speaker 2: both hermaphroditic. I wanted them to appear almost like like

911
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 2: like a like a grub or something. Yeah, and all

912
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:40,040
Speaker 2: those features came in there. I should mention this also. Unfortunately,

913
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:43,360
Speaker 2: Norm because of his own career taking off, was not

914
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 2: able to color the second book in the series, which

915
00:48:46,600 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 2: is Thor, and that is being done by S. J. Miller.

916
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 3: Well, George, once again, thanks for coming on the show.

917
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,600
Speaker 3: My son and I both really enjoyed Odin. I just

918
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:57,680
Speaker 3: had it sitting out of my desk after the review

919
00:48:57,680 --> 00:49:01,320
Speaker 3: copy came in for a few days and he grabbed

920
00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 3: it I think, read it in one setting, like right

921
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 3: there on the floor and gave his approval. He was

922
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:10,160
Speaker 3: a fan of this one. So grayly enjoyed Odin. I'm

923
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:12,240
Speaker 3: gonna have to read it again and maybe another time,

924
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:14,600
Speaker 3: and then we're excited for Thor when that comes out.

925
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:15,840
Speaker 2: Excellent.

926
00:49:19,120 --> 00:49:21,680
Speaker 3: Thanks again to George O'Connor for chatting with me here.

927
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 3: The book again is as Guardians Odin out now in

928
00:49:25,600 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 3: all fourmats. You can learn more about George and his

929
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 3: works at George O'Connor books dot com. That's George O'Connor

930
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 3: co O N N O R Books dot com. And hey,

931
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:39,640
Speaker 3: if you're not familiar with Stuff to Blow your Mind here.

932
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 3: While we are primarily a science and culture podcast with

933
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,560
Speaker 3: core episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, on Mondays we do

934
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 3: some listener mail, so frid In we'd love to hear

935
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 3: from you. On Wednesdays we do a short form episode,

936
00:49:51,280 --> 00:49:53,920
Speaker 3: and on Fridays we set aside most serious concerns to

937
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,920
Speaker 3: just talk about a weird movie on Weird House Cinema.

938
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 3: Thanks as always to the excellent JJ Possway for producing

939
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:02,319
Speaker 3: this show, and if you would like to reach out,

940
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 3: you could email us at contact at stuff to Blow

941
00:50:05,239 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 3: your Mind dot com.

942
00:50:14,520 --> 00:50:17,440
Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

943
00:50:17,520 --> 00:50:20,319
Speaker 2: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

944
00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,