1 00:00:02,400 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: Happy Saturday. Coming up soon on the show, we have 2 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: an episode that has some connections to witch trials in 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:12,800 Speaker 1: the UK and to the laws that were in effect 4 00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: that prohibited witchcraft at that time. So Today's Saturday Classic 5 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: provides some of the historical context for all of that. 6 00:00:20,480 --> 00:00:24,720 Speaker 1: It is our November four episode on Matthew Hopkins, who 7 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:32,519 Speaker 1: built himself as the witch Finder General. So enjoying Welcome 8 00:00:32,600 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: to Stuff you missed in History Class a production of 9 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:44,840 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm 10 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:48,080 Speaker 1: Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Fry. Today we are 11 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,320 Speaker 1: going to talk about England's largest and deadliest set of 12 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:55,280 Speaker 1: witch trials, which were largely influenced by one man. That 13 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: was Matthew Hopkins, who was known as the witch Finder General, 14 00:00:59,000 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: although this really does seemed like a title that was 15 00:01:01,280 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 1: given to him and any kind of formal or official capacity. 16 00:01:05,280 --> 00:01:08,440 Speaker 1: This happened in the region of East Anglia between sixteen 17 00:01:08,480 --> 00:01:11,360 Speaker 1: forty five and sixteen forty seven, so it was after 18 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 1: the peak of which trial activity in early modern Europe, 19 00:01:15,200 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 1: but it was also a couple of decades before the 20 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 1: Salem witch trials on the other side of the Atlantic Ocean. 21 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:22,760 Speaker 1: Most of the people who were put to death and 22 00:01:22,800 --> 00:01:25,800 Speaker 1: these trials were poor, elderly women, and some of the 23 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: methods that Hopkins and other investigators were using could be 24 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,679 Speaker 1: classified as torture, even though torture was not supposed to 25 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,160 Speaker 1: be used in cases of witchcraft at that time. So 26 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: this behavior on his part was so over the line 27 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:40,760 Speaker 1: to a lot of people that he earned a lot 28 00:01:40,800 --> 00:01:43,840 Speaker 1: of criticism for it in his day. Yeah, I think 29 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 1: we tend to think that, oh, looking back, that was horrible, 30 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: but everyone was on board then, No, no, absolutely not. 31 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:52,920 Speaker 1: These witch trials were not really about things like pagan 32 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: practices or herbal medicine or fortune telling. As a basic definition, 33 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: a witch was someone who was believed to be using 34 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: magic to do harm. People who are using magic for good, 35 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: like curing diseases were often called white witches or cunning folk. 36 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:12,720 Speaker 1: Aside from the fact that cunning folk were sometimes called 37 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:16,000 Speaker 1: in to help identify which is they weren't typically part 38 00:02:16,040 --> 00:02:18,959 Speaker 1: of these trials at all unless someone found a reason 39 00:02:19,320 --> 00:02:22,400 Speaker 1: to suspect them of doing harm. I think one of 40 00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 1: the common ideas about which trials is that somebody was 41 00:02:27,280 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 1: practicing herbal medicine and authorities found that really threatening for 42 00:02:30,360 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: some reason, and that wasn't so much the case with 43 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: what was going on here. Beyond the basic idea of 44 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:41,120 Speaker 1: causing harm with witchcraft, specific beliefs about which is really 45 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:45,040 Speaker 1: varied over time and from one place to another. For example, 46 00:02:45,080 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 1: the idea that which is made a pact with the 47 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:50,680 Speaker 1: devil was common in some parts of Europe before the 48 00:02:50,760 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: seventeenth century, but it didn't really make its way to 49 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: what's now the UK and Ireland until a little bit later. 50 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: It might have been introduced by King James, the sixth 51 00:02:59,639 --> 00:03:03,000 Speaker 1: of Skyland and first of England. King James wrote about 52 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,000 Speaker 1: that idea in his book Demonology, which he published in 53 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: fift seven that was shortly after ascending to the throne 54 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: of Scotland, and the idea of making pacts with the 55 00:03:13,360 --> 00:03:16,720 Speaker 1: devil and having demonic familiars was a huge part of 56 00:03:16,720 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: the witch trials that we're talking about today, but really 57 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 1: not so much in English witch trials that happened centuries before. 58 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: There were also variations in exactly how different communities dealt 59 00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: with suspected witches. To look at England and Scotland again, 60 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: both had laws against witchcraft by the sixteenth century, but 61 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: in England, the demand for accused witches to be brought 62 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: to justice tended to start with members of a community 63 00:03:41,320 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: who believed that they had personally been harmed. In Scotland, 64 00:03:45,720 --> 00:03:48,280 Speaker 1: that demand tended to come from the ruling elite out 65 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: of a broader desire to root out which is and 66 00:03:51,120 --> 00:03:55,440 Speaker 1: anything else that was contrary to God. In early modern England, 67 00:03:55,600 --> 00:04:00,240 Speaker 1: witchcraft accusations tended to follow a pretty regular pattern, even 68 00:04:00,280 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 1: how deeply ingrained the belief in witchcraft was. It's totally 69 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: possible that there were some people who actually were trying 70 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:10,360 Speaker 1: to harm their neighbors in some way, but most of 71 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,240 Speaker 1: the time these accusations were faults and it was really 72 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 1: about an interpersonal dispute. Here's an example from the trials 73 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:21,480 Speaker 1: that we're talking about today. Robert Taylor testified that Elizabeth 74 00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:24,400 Speaker 1: Gooding came into his shop and asked for half a 75 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,440 Speaker 1: pound of cheese, which she would pay for later. He 76 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:30,359 Speaker 1: said no, because he's horrible and denied people cheese. No, 77 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:33,360 Speaker 1: that's a totally not the thing. She muttered under her 78 00:04:33,360 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: breath about it, came back later with the money and 79 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:40,160 Speaker 1: bought the cheese. That night, Taylor's horse fell ill, and 80 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 1: four days later that horse died, which he said was 81 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Gooding's doing as a payback for him refusing to 82 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:51,200 Speaker 1: help her. Elizabeth Gooding denied all of these allegations entirely. 83 00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 1: So while these kinds of interpersonal disputes could spark isolated 84 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,560 Speaker 1: accusations of witchcraft, they weren't usually enough on their own 85 00:04:59,600 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: to set off a huge panic. When that did happen, 86 00:05:02,800 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 1: there was typically some other larger issue going on that 87 00:05:06,120 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 1: was causing other social or political or economic unrest. In 88 00:05:10,480 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: the case of Matthew Hopkins time as a witch finder, 89 00:05:13,160 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: that something else was the English Civil Wars okay, as 90 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: a quick recap, The English Civil Wars spanned from sixteen 91 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:22,920 Speaker 1: forty two to sixteen fifty one, and they also involved 92 00:05:22,960 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 1: Ireland in Scotland. In England, the dispute was between the 93 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: monarchy and its supporters on one side, and Parliament and 94 00:05:29,720 --> 00:05:33,000 Speaker 1: its supporters on the other. Charles the First had ruled 95 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 1: England without a parliament from six to sixteen forty a 96 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,000 Speaker 1: period known as the personal rule that has come up 97 00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: on the show before. He only summoned to Parliament when 98 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: he had no other choice, but the King and Parliament 99 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,480 Speaker 1: disagreed over a number of matters, especially whether the king 100 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 1: or parliament should have control over the military. During the 101 00:05:53,080 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: English Civil Wars, King Charles the First was executed, his 102 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 1: son Charles the Second was sent into exile, and at 103 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:02,400 Speaker 1: least a hundred eighty thousand people were killed in battle 104 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:04,840 Speaker 1: or as a result of the war. And then, on 105 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:07,719 Speaker 1: top of all of the violence and chaos and loss 106 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,839 Speaker 1: of life, both sides in the English Civil War used 107 00:06:10,880 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: the idea of witchcraft to target the other. Royalist propaganda 108 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:20,599 Speaker 1: quoted First Samuel three from the Bible, which reads for 109 00:06:20,880 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. Parliamentarians claimed that 110 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:27,960 Speaker 1: Charles the first nephew, Prince Rupert of the Rhine, was 111 00:06:28,000 --> 00:06:30,760 Speaker 1: a witch and that his dog Boy was as familiar. 112 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 1: Battlefield losses were blamed on bewitchment, and in sixteen forty three, 113 00:06:35,279 --> 00:06:40,159 Speaker 1: parliamentarian forces executed a woman just before the Battle of Newbury. 114 00:06:40,360 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: According to written accounts, first they examined her and they 115 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: found physical evidence on her body that she was a witch. 116 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 1: Although hundreds of executions for witchcraft were carried out during 117 00:06:50,320 --> 00:06:53,640 Speaker 1: the English Civil Wars, this one in Newbury was something 118 00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 1: of an anomaly, because witchcraft was a crime that was 119 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:00,160 Speaker 1: typically handled through the English courts. This legal history went 120 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 1: back to fifteen seventeen with the Bill against Conjurations and 121 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: Witchcrafts and Sorcery and Enchantments, which made witchcraft a felony 122 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:12,680 Speaker 1: punishable by death. That law was later repealed, but the 123 00:07:12,760 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 1: Act against Conjurations, Enchantments and Witchcrafts followed in fifteen sixty two. 124 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:20,800 Speaker 1: The law that was in effect during the events that 125 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: we're talking about today was the sixteen o four Act 126 00:07:24,040 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: against Conjuration, Witchcraft and Dealing with Evil and Wicked Spirits. 127 00:07:29,520 --> 00:07:32,400 Speaker 1: It repealed that fifteen sixty two law before going on 128 00:07:32,440 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 1: to say, quote, if any person or persons after the 129 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: said Feast of St. Michael the Archangel next coming, shall 130 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: use practice, or exercise any invocation or conjuration of any 131 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 1: evil and wicked spirit, or shall consult, covenant with, entertain, employ, feed, 132 00:07:50,360 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: or reward any evil and wicked spirit to, or, for 133 00:07:54,040 --> 00:07:58,520 Speaker 1: any intent or purpose, or take up any dead man, woman, 134 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: or child out of his, as her or their grave, 135 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: or any other place where the dead body resideth, or 136 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: the skin, bone, or any other part of any dead person, 137 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: to be employed or used in any manner of witchcraft, sorcery, 138 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:19,640 Speaker 1: charm or enchantment, or shall use practice or exercise any witchcraft, enchantment, charm, 139 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:25,720 Speaker 1: or sorcery, whereby any person shall be killed, destroyed, wasted, consumed, pined, 140 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: or lamed in his or her body or any part thereof. 141 00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: So if any person who did all of that stuff 142 00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: that I just read, they would be put to death 143 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: as a felon, as would anybody who aided, or abetted 144 00:08:37,160 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 1: or counseled them. The method of execution in these cases 145 00:08:40,800 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 1: was generally hanging. Under the same law, anyone who used 146 00:08:44,640 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: witchcraft to find treasure, provoke unlawful love, or cause harm 147 00:08:49,520 --> 00:08:52,600 Speaker 1: to cattle or goods would be imprisoned for a year. 148 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: Of course, the parliamentarians execution of the woman known as 149 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 1: the Newberry which wasn't the only extra judicial killing of 150 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,880 Speaker 1: a suspected which there were definitely other instances of vigilante 151 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 1: murder as well, but it was far more common for 152 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: an accused which to be tried before a jury in 153 00:09:10,160 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: the same court system that was being used for other crimes. 154 00:09:13,640 --> 00:09:16,880 Speaker 1: Through much of the sixteenth and seventeen centuries, it was 155 00:09:16,920 --> 00:09:21,559 Speaker 1: possible and even likely, to be found not guilty of witchcraft. 156 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: For example, between fifteen sixty and sixteen hundred, two hundred 157 00:09:25,280 --> 00:09:27,839 Speaker 1: fifty eight people were indicted for witchcraft in the home 158 00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 1: Circuit assizes. The assizes were criminal courts that tended to 159 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:35,480 Speaker 1: focus on more serious crimes. Less than a quarter of 160 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 1: those two hundred fifty eight people were found guilty. Even 161 00:09:39,160 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: after the passage of the Witchcraft Act of sixteen o four, 162 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:45,360 Speaker 1: which was stricter than the law that it replaced, conviction 163 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 1: rates still tended to be about twenty or lower, even 164 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 1: though there were definitely periods where that percentage was much higher. 165 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:55,400 Speaker 1: The witch trials that happened in East Anglia between sixteen 166 00:09:55,440 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: forty five and sixteen forty seven happened during one of 167 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,719 Speaker 1: those periods when allow more people were convicted of witchcraft. 168 00:10:02,240 --> 00:10:05,040 Speaker 1: The chaos of the English Civil Wars had led to 169 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:09,200 Speaker 1: an increase in the number of witchcraft allegations. Authorities in 170 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: general were also overstretched because of the war, and then 171 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:16,320 Speaker 1: on top of that, the courts themselves were understaffed. Most 172 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:19,480 Speaker 1: of the assize circuits had lost at least one judge 173 00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: after the ones who had sanctioned King Charles's personal rule 174 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 1: of England were impeached, so an overburdened understaffed court system 175 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:30,079 Speaker 1: was having to deal with a sudden influx of all 176 00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:35,280 Speaker 1: of these allegations. And another important point, Matthew Hopkins was 177 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: out there drumming up allegations, and we're gonna get into 178 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 1: that after we first pause for a little sponsor break. 179 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:55,319 Speaker 1: Matthew Hopkins went from relative obscurity to being the most 180 00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 1: notorious and influential figure in England's largest series of witch trial, 181 00:11:00,520 --> 00:11:05,199 Speaker 1: seemingly overnight. His father was a Puritan named James Hopkins, 182 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:08,680 Speaker 1: who was vicar of Great Winnham in Suffolk, England. James 183 00:11:08,760 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: took that position in sixteen twelve, which was a couple 184 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:14,720 Speaker 1: of years after he got married. James's father had been 185 00:11:14,720 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: a landowner and he inherited money from both of his parents, 186 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: so the family was able to live pretty comfortably regardless 187 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 1: of how profitable their vicarage was, and they were able 188 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: to set their children up with trusts. James Hopkins died 189 00:11:27,559 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: around sixteen thirty four. That's the year that his will 190 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: was proved or legally accepted as the last will of 191 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:38,560 Speaker 1: the deceased. That will referenced six children, including Matthew and 192 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,560 Speaker 1: his brother Thomas. It left them in the care of 193 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,440 Speaker 1: his widow with instructions that they be brought up quote 194 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:47,840 Speaker 1: in the Fear of God. This suggests that at least 195 00:11:47,840 --> 00:11:50,559 Speaker 1: some of James's children were not legal adults yet when 196 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:53,360 Speaker 1: he wrote this will. Based on the timing of his 197 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 1: marriage and death and the fact that Matthew was the 198 00:11:55,760 --> 00:11:59,280 Speaker 1: fourth of six children, most sources estimate that he was 199 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: born in sixteen nineteen or later, and then it is 200 00:12:02,760 --> 00:12:06,560 Speaker 1: a mystery. Given the family's affluence, Matthew probably had a 201 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:10,240 Speaker 1: good education, but we don't really know in what He's 202 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 1: often described as being a lawyer, but there's no evidence 203 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: that he formally studied law. Although his fixation with witchcraft 204 00:12:17,920 --> 00:12:21,360 Speaker 1: clearly had some religious roots, it does not seem as 205 00:12:21,360 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 1: though he wanted to follow in his father's footsteps into 206 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:26,839 Speaker 1: the clergy. We don't even know whether he had really 207 00:12:26,880 --> 00:12:29,880 Speaker 1: studied the literature of the day on witchcraft and the 208 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 1: identification of witches, which there was a whole lot of. 209 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 1: There was the Malleus Maleficarum, or The Hammer of Witches, 210 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: which was written by two Dominicans from Germany and Austria 211 00:12:41,160 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 1: and published around fourteen eighty six. The Hammer of Witches 212 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: became a standard manual for witch hunting, and there were 213 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:52,480 Speaker 1: almost thirty editions published between fourteen eighty six and sixteen hundred. 214 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: We mentioned King James's Demonology earlier. That was a compendium 215 00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 1: on necromancy, sorcery and spirits. It might have been one 216 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:05,319 Speaker 1: of the sources for Shakespeare's Macbeth. George Gifford produced two 217 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,679 Speaker 1: books on witchcraft. They were A Discourse of the Subtle 218 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: Practices of Devils by Witches and Sorcerers in seven and 219 00:13:13,960 --> 00:13:19,720 Speaker 1: a Dialogue concerning Witches and witchcrafts in John Cota published 220 00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:23,479 Speaker 1: The Trial of Witchcraft in sixteen sixteen and then republished 221 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: it nine years later as The Infallible, True and Assured Witch. 222 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: Richard Bernard's A Guide to Grand Juryman came out in 223 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: sixteen twenty seven and discussed methods of identifying which is, 224 00:13:34,960 --> 00:13:38,960 Speaker 1: as well as natural conditions in quotation marks that might 225 00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: be mistaken for witchcraft. There were to be clear also 226 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:47,359 Speaker 1: writers arguing that at least some of this was superstitious nonsense, 227 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,440 Speaker 1: including the more skeptical The Discovery of Witchcraft by Reginald 228 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:54,600 Speaker 1: Scott in fifteen eighty four. As an aside, he has 229 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,080 Speaker 1: long been on my list as a subject. How good 230 00:13:57,240 --> 00:14:01,080 Speaker 1: this show. I went on kind of a rabbit hole 231 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: of all of these various writings on witchcraft and was like, 232 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:06,040 Speaker 1: I wish we could just do episodes on all of them, 233 00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: because some of them are just so bizarre in their 234 00:14:09,960 --> 00:14:15,520 Speaker 1: claims that they put forth. Um Various historians have closely 235 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:19,560 Speaker 1: read hopkins writing to try to find traces of these 236 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,480 Speaker 1: and other previous works on witchcraft. They have drawn varying 237 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 1: conclusions on what he might or might not have been 238 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: familiar with. Given his upbringing and his father's position and 239 00:14:30,720 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: the really widespread belief in this type of witchcraft, it's 240 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: probably something that he would have talked about at home 241 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: among his family. But aside from King James's Demonology, Hopkins 242 00:14:41,720 --> 00:14:45,280 Speaker 1: doesn't directly reference any of these previous works in his 243 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: own writing. He instead says that his knowledge of witchcraft 244 00:14:49,240 --> 00:14:52,440 Speaker 1: and how to identify witches came from his own experience. 245 00:14:53,040 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: I like how the idea of talking about it at 246 00:14:55,160 --> 00:14:57,400 Speaker 1: home leads me, of course, be like, if you don't 247 00:14:57,440 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: talk to your kids about witchcraft, I learned it by 248 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:07,760 Speaker 1: watching you, right exactly. That's exactly the whole entire self 249 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: entertainment loop that's running in my head right now That experience, though, 250 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: that Tracy just referenced, started in sixteen forty four when 251 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:19,160 Speaker 1: Hopkins was living in Manningtree in Essex. In his account, 252 00:15:19,240 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: in which he refers to himself in the third person 253 00:15:21,520 --> 00:15:25,040 Speaker 1: quote in March sixteen forty four, he had some seven 254 00:15:25,200 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 1: or eight of that horrible sect of which is living 255 00:15:28,040 --> 00:15:30,520 Speaker 1: in the town where he lived, a town in Essex 256 00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:34,800 Speaker 1: called Manningtree, with diverse other adjacent witches of other towns, 257 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: who every six weeks in the night, being always on 258 00:15:38,240 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: the Friday night, had their meeting close by his house 259 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: and had their several solemn sacrifices they're offered to the devil. 260 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: Hopkins went on to say that one night he heard 261 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: one of the witches talking to her imps and telling 262 00:15:51,760 --> 00:15:54,760 Speaker 1: them to go to another witch, who was then caught 263 00:15:54,800 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: and searched for a devil's mark which these which is 264 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:01,440 Speaker 1: purportedly used to feed their imp familiar. In this case, 265 00:16:01,480 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: the woman who was examined had quote three teeths about her, 266 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: which honest women have not. This woman was Elizabeth Clark, 267 00:16:08,800 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: who was an elderly disabled woman who was living in poverty. 268 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,720 Speaker 1: Having identified the mark, the next step to identifying a 269 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: witch was to keep her awake for at least two 270 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: or three days to lure her familiars into coming to 271 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 1: her assistance. This was known as watching the witch, and 272 00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:29,040 Speaker 1: sometimes it was combined with walking or making the accused 273 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:32,760 Speaker 1: woman stay on her feet pacing around, sometimes until she 274 00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: injured herself. In hopkins account, the familiars in this case 275 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 1: appeared on the fourth night, and there were ten people 276 00:16:39,680 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 1: in the room when it happened. Hopkins said, Clark called 277 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,600 Speaker 1: several familiars. Quote one Holt who came in like a 278 00:16:46,640 --> 00:16:50,240 Speaker 1: white kittling to Jarmara, who came in like a fat 279 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: spaniel without any any legs at all. She said she 280 00:16:53,040 --> 00:16:55,240 Speaker 1: kept him fat for she clapped her hand on her 281 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,160 Speaker 1: belly and said he sucked the good blood from her body. 282 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: Three vinegar to Mom, who was like a long legged 283 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 1: greyhound with an head like an ox and a long 284 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: tail and broad eyes, who, when this discoverer spoke to 285 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: and bade him go to the place provided for him 286 00:17:12,640 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: and his angels, immediately transformed himself into the shape of 287 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: a child four years old without a head, and gave 288 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: half a dozen turns about the house and vanished at 289 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: the door. Four sack and sugar like a black Rabbit, 290 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:31,400 Speaker 1: five News like a pull Cat. After this, Hopkins said, 291 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: the imprisoned Clark named several other witches from the community, 292 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:37,959 Speaker 1: including where their witch marks were, how many imps they had, 293 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,080 Speaker 1: and what those imps names were. Those were names that 294 00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:45,040 Speaker 1: included Lamanzer Pie, Wackett, peck in the Crown, Grizzle, and 295 00:17:45,080 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 1: Greedy Gut. So if you're looking for pet names, maybe 296 00:17:47,520 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 1: make a list today, because there are a lot of 297 00:17:49,119 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 1: good ones in this episode. As I was working on this, 298 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 1: I kept getting really frustrated because, I mean, the story 299 00:17:56,240 --> 00:17:58,800 Speaker 1: is about a lot of women, most of them elderly 300 00:17:58,920 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: and living in Poppy, who were put to death for 301 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: no reason and sometimes tortured beforehand, which is awful, But 302 00:18:06,359 --> 00:18:10,240 Speaker 1: these descriptions of their familiars and stuff are amazing, and 303 00:18:10,280 --> 00:18:12,920 Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm having like I wish this story wasn't 304 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 1: so horrible and tragic because these are great. Yeah, I mean, 305 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,720 Speaker 1: that's always like the long term appeal of of all 306 00:18:19,760 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: of these stories, right, there is something fantastical and fantasy 307 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:27,560 Speaker 1: and wonderful about them, Like it's this panic made people 308 00:18:27,600 --> 00:18:31,399 Speaker 1: real creative, um, but unfortunately it also made them jerks 309 00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:38,840 Speaker 1: and treat women with just deplorable uh methods. Yeah, yeah, 310 00:18:38,920 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: so like we don't want to minimize that at all. 311 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:43,600 Speaker 1: But at the same time, pie Whackett and peck in 312 00:18:43,640 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 1: the crown like it's fascinating. While she was being questioned, 313 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Clark said that Anne West was another witch, and 314 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 1: soon accusations of witchcraft were spreading all through the community. 315 00:18:55,680 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 1: Rebecca West, who was Anne's teenage daughter, accused several women 316 00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:04,399 Speaker 1: as well, including also accusing her mother. After these and 317 00:19:04,440 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 1: other accusations, trials began in sixty five, Clark gave her 318 00:19:09,680 --> 00:19:12,920 Speaker 1: own testimony about this before the Right Honorable Robert Earl 319 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: of Warwick and several Justices of the Peace. In her confession, 320 00:19:17,040 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: she said that the devil had been coming to lie 321 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,240 Speaker 1: with her in bed for six or seven years. She 322 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:25,920 Speaker 1: traced it back to another woman. That woman being and West. 323 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,359 Speaker 1: Clark had been gathering sticks in a field one day, 324 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 1: and Anne West had seen her and felt sorry for 325 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,560 Speaker 1: her because she only had one leg. According to Clark, 326 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 1: West said she would send quote a thing like a 327 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:41,680 Speaker 1: little kitlin that would help her and bring her provisions. 328 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: And her confession, Rebecca West said that she and leech 329 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: Elizabeth Gooding Helen Clark and her mother had all met 330 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:52,960 Speaker 1: at Elizabeth Clark's house. They had prayed to their familiars, 331 00:19:52,960 --> 00:19:56,000 Speaker 1: and they'd planned a number of misfortunes and tragedies that 332 00:19:56,040 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: had happened in the community, and she said that the 333 00:19:59,000 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 1: devil came to them while they were there. Her confession 334 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: ended with the devil having appeared to her at night 335 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,680 Speaker 1: and married her, a thing that we should note here. 336 00:20:08,160 --> 00:20:11,439 Speaker 1: All of this testimony about the appearance of familiars in 337 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,119 Speaker 1: various animal forms suckling on the bodies of the accused 338 00:20:15,440 --> 00:20:19,040 Speaker 1: sounds really bizarre. Some of this is often attributed to 339 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 1: the nature of the questioning. If watchers kept a suspected 340 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: which awake for days at a time, she was likely 341 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:27,399 Speaker 1: to be delirious by the end of it, and it 342 00:20:27,400 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 1: would make total sense for her sleep deprived statements to 343 00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: sound absolutely unreal. And many of the techniques used to 344 00:20:34,080 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: test which is are defined as abuse or torture today, 345 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 1: So it also makes a lot of sense that the 346 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 1: accused people would tell the investigators what they wanted to 347 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: hear to just stop the torture, or otherwise simply to 348 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 1: protect their own life. At the same time, though people 349 00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 1: sincerely believed that this type of witchcraft and these imps 350 00:20:54,280 --> 00:20:57,399 Speaker 1: and familiars, they believed all that was real, and in 351 00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 1: court documents, the watchers and the investigators, who hadn't been 352 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:05,679 Speaker 1: through any of these ordeals themselves, also described personally seeing 353 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: these demonic familiars in various shapes and forms. In the 354 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 1: case of Elizabeth Clark, that included Matthew Hopkins, his associate 355 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: John Stern, four women who had participated in watching her, 356 00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 1: and other people, all of whom testified to personally seeing 357 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,000 Speaker 1: these familiars when they were in court. The testimonies from 358 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: this first set of sixteen forty five witch trials are 359 00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:32,600 Speaker 1: documented in a true and exact relation of the several informations, 360 00:21:32,680 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 1: examinations and confessions of the late witches arraigned and executed 361 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,400 Speaker 1: in the County of Essex who were arraigned and condemned 362 00:21:40,440 --> 00:21:43,840 Speaker 1: at the late Sessions Holden at Chelmsford before the Right 363 00:21:43,880 --> 00:21:47,800 Speaker 1: Honorable Robert, Earl of Warwick and several of His Majesty's 364 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 1: Justices of Peace the twenty nine of July sixty five, 365 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:56,919 Speaker 1: wherein the several murthrs and devilish witchcrafts committed on the 366 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,680 Speaker 1: bodies of men women and children and diverse cattle are 367 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 1: fully discovered published by authority. So there are scans of 368 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: this online and it goes on and on with pages 369 00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: of testimony detailing witch marks and imps and marriages to 370 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 1: the devil, as well as accidents, illnesses, miscarriages and deaths 371 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:20,280 Speaker 1: that the witches purportedly caused and in some cases confessed to. 372 00:22:20,880 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 1: In July of Elizabeth Clark and Anne West were tried 373 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,800 Speaker 1: along with thirty four other suspected witches. Nineteen of them 374 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: were executed by hanging and nine more died of disease 375 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 1: in prison. Rebecca West was released in exchange for testifying 376 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 1: against the others. Only one of those women was actually acquitted. 377 00:22:42,359 --> 00:22:46,159 Speaker 1: These accusations and trials then spread well beyond Essex, and 378 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:58,159 Speaker 1: we will get to that after another sponsor break. The 379 00:22:58,200 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: accusations of witchcraft that were made in Manningtree were the 380 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:05,119 Speaker 1: start of a set of witch trials so widespread and 381 00:23:05,280 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: so closely associated with Matthew Hopkins that it is sometimes 382 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:13,160 Speaker 1: called the Hopkins witch Panic. Hopkins and his associate John 383 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: Stern traveled from place to place investigating reports of witchcraft, 384 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:22,119 Speaker 1: inspecting women's bodies for marks, watching suspected witches and in 385 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,720 Speaker 1: some cases swimming them, which was throwing them into the water, 386 00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,679 Speaker 1: sometimes tied up to see if they would sink or float. 387 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,200 Speaker 1: More than ten people were put on trial in Sudbury, 388 00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:37,359 Speaker 1: forty in Norfolk, and eight in Huntingtondonshire. They were overwhelmingly, 389 00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,800 Speaker 1: but not exclusively women. The records are not always clear, 390 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:43,600 Speaker 1: but in total at least two hundred fifty people were 391 00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:47,640 Speaker 1: put on trial in East Anglia between sixteen and sixteen 392 00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: forty seven, and more than one hundred of them were executed. 393 00:23:51,720 --> 00:23:55,320 Speaker 1: Some estimates double all of those numbers. The number of 394 00:23:55,400 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: accusations was so big that Parliament appointed a special Commission 395 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,199 Speaker 1: of Oyer and termin Or to hear the cases, and 396 00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: that followed the letter of the sixteen No for Witchcraft law. 397 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 1: The commission criticized Hopkins and his methods. Torture had been 398 00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,439 Speaker 1: outlawed and the questioning of witches, so they thought some 399 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 1: of what he was doing was unacceptable. Although the most 400 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 1: questionable cases were thrown out, most of the accused were 401 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: again found guilty, although Hopkins and Stern maintained that they 402 00:24:24,080 --> 00:24:26,399 Speaker 1: only went to places where they had been invited by 403 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: concerned people in the community. The people in those towns 404 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: were not universally welcoming, even apart from the people being 405 00:24:33,000 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: accused of witchcraft. The witch finders were paid for their 406 00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:40,119 Speaker 1: work and paid well, so people accused them of making 407 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:44,440 Speaker 1: up allegations for money. Hopkins total pay has been estimated 408 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:47,399 Speaker 1: at one thousand pounds, when the average person at the 409 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:51,160 Speaker 1: time was making pennies per day. Hopkins and Stern were 410 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: criticized for what they were doing almost from the very 411 00:24:54,240 --> 00:24:58,440 Speaker 1: beginning when they started doing it, possibly even criticized from Parliament. 412 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:03,560 Speaker 1: One of hopkins biggest individual critics was Puritan rector John Gall, 413 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,520 Speaker 1: who was something of a skeptic when it came to witchcraft. 414 00:25:07,240 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 1: Gall directly challenged what Hopkins was doing, and in sixteen 415 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 1: forty six he published quote Select Cases of Conscience Touching 416 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 1: Witches and Witchcrafts, which begins with a letter from Hopkins 417 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:21,119 Speaker 1: saying that he was going to go into Great Stotton 418 00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 1: to look for witches. Gall believed that which is existed, 419 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: and in his opinion, total disbelief in which is was 420 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: a first step on a path of disbelieving in God. 421 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:33,840 Speaker 1: But at the same time he thought what was really 422 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: at work in England. In sixty six was superstition. He 423 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 1: thought that people were using witchcraft and demons to find 424 00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 1: something to blame for the ordinary problems of life. After 425 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,719 Speaker 1: noting his belief that which is did exist, he wrote, quote, 426 00:25:48,000 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: but there are also a sect or sort that, on 427 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,600 Speaker 1: the other hand, are as superstitious. In this point, as 428 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:58,719 Speaker 1: these can be infidelious, they conclude preremptorial lee, not from reason, 429 00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,240 Speaker 1: but in discretion, that which is not only are, but 430 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,920 Speaker 1: are in every place and parish with them. Every old 431 00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 1: woman with a wrinkled face, of furrowed brow, a hairy lip, 432 00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,919 Speaker 1: a gobber tooth, a squint eye, a squeaking voice, or 433 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,600 Speaker 1: a scolding tongue, having a rugged coat on her back, 434 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: a skull cap on her head, a spindle in her hand, 435 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,399 Speaker 1: and a dog or cat by her side, is not 436 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,600 Speaker 1: only suspect, but pronounced for a witch. Every new disease, 437 00:26:26,720 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: notable accident, mirrable of nature, rarity of art, nay and 438 00:26:30,920 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 1: strange work, or just judgment of God, is by them 439 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: accounted for no other but an act or effect of witchcraft. 440 00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:42,719 Speaker 1: Gall also noted that this whole profession of witch finder 441 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,600 Speaker 1: seemed to be a new invention. Before this work had 442 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 1: fallen to people like magistrates and justices of the piece, 443 00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,280 Speaker 1: but now it was being handled by people like Matthew Hopkins, 444 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:57,320 Speaker 1: who was calling himself the witch Finder General, and Gall 445 00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: placed the blame for the witch panic where it belonged 446 00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,119 Speaker 1: on Hopkins and Stern, who were going from town to 447 00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,359 Speaker 1: town stirring people up. In Gaul's words, quote, it is 448 00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 1: strange to tell what superstitious opinions, affections, relations are generally 449 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: risen amongst us since the witch Finders came into the country. 450 00:27:16,400 --> 00:27:19,520 Speaker 1: And May of sixteen forty seven, Matthew Hopkins published his 451 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 1: own pamphlet in response to these and other criticisms. It 452 00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,639 Speaker 1: was called Quote the Discovery of Witches, An Answer to 453 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,160 Speaker 1: several Queries lately delivered to the Judges of the Assize 454 00:27:30,280 --> 00:27:34,080 Speaker 1: for the County of Norfolk, and now published by Matthew Hopkins, 455 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:37,679 Speaker 1: witch Finder, for the benefit of the whole Kingdom. Hopkins 456 00:27:37,720 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 1: framed his defense as a series of answers to fourteen 457 00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: queries he had purportedly been asked, although some of the 458 00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: queries are really statements rather than questions. Uh The first 459 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:50,960 Speaker 1: is that he must be a witch, sorcerer and wizard himself, 460 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,680 Speaker 1: otherwise he could not have done what he was doing. 461 00:27:54,320 --> 00:27:57,159 Speaker 1: The second is that, if he wasn't a witch himself, 462 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 1: that he had met with the devil and stolen a 463 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,720 Speaker 1: book containing the names of all the witches in England, 464 00:28:03,320 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: so he was doing this work with the help of 465 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 1: the devil. He responds to the first of these statements 466 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 1: with quote, if Satan's kingdom be divided against itself, how 467 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,879 Speaker 1: shall it stand? That's his whole answer. He responds to 468 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:18,520 Speaker 1: the second by basically saying that if he did steal 469 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 1: the devil's book, wasn't that something that he should be 470 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: commended for rather than judged. It's also in the earlier 471 00:28:25,359 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: queries that Hopkins says his knowledge of witchcraft came from 472 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:32,399 Speaker 1: his own experience, which he describes as quote yet the 473 00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 1: surest and safest way to judge by Query five in 474 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:39,240 Speaker 1: this pamphlet points out that a lot of people, especially 475 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,480 Speaker 1: people who are poor or elderly, have marks on their 476 00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:49,800 Speaker 1: bodies naturally, along with quote other natural excrescencies as hemrhods, piles, childbearing, etcetera. 477 00:28:50,360 --> 00:28:52,600 Speaker 1: So how is one man to judge that one of 478 00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: these perfectly normal things is un natural? Hopkins reply is 479 00:28:57,480 --> 00:29:00,640 Speaker 1: quote the party, So judging can justify their skill to 480 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:03,920 Speaker 1: any and show good reasons why such marks are not 481 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,640 Speaker 1: merely natural, neither that they can happen by any such 482 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,560 Speaker 1: natural cause, as is before expressed, and for further answer 483 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:15,280 Speaker 1: for their private judgments alone. It is most false and untrue. 484 00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,520 Speaker 1: For never was any man tried by search of his body, 485 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,000 Speaker 1: but commonly a dozen of the ablest men in the 486 00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: parish or elsewhere were present, and most commonly as many 487 00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 1: ancient skillful matrons and midwives present. When the women are tried, 488 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,880 Speaker 1: which marks, not only he and his company attests to 489 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:35,800 Speaker 1: be very suspicious, but all beholders, the skillfullest of them, 490 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,520 Speaker 1: do not approve of them, but likewise assent that such 491 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: tokens cannot, in their judgments, proceed from any the above 492 00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: mentioned causes. In the next query, Hopkins goes on to 493 00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 1: explain that you can tell these marks aren't natural because 494 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 1: they're in unusual places. They're also insensible to pain, and 495 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:58,160 Speaker 1: they change shape, for example, because they're sending their imps 496 00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,040 Speaker 1: to feed from someone else to avoid the tection, or 497 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: because their imps have been able to feed from anyone 498 00:30:03,800 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: for a period of time. This pamphlet goes on to 499 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: explain in Hopkins opinion various aspects of witchcraft, and to 500 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: defend his own actions, simultaneously explaining the necessity of practices 501 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 1: like waking and swimming witches, and saying that he utterly 502 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: denies any confession that results from torture. And the last 503 00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,680 Speaker 1: query quote all that the witch finder doth is to 504 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:30,719 Speaker 1: fleece the country of their money, and therefore rides and 505 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,959 Speaker 1: goes to towns to have employment, and promiseth them fair promises, 506 00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: and it maybe doth nothing for it, and possesseth many 507 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: men that they have so many wizards and so many 508 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: witches in their town, and so heartens them on to 509 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: entertain him. His answer quote, you do him a great 510 00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:53,160 Speaker 1: deal of wrong, and every of these particulars. For first one, 511 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 1: he never went into any town or place, but they 512 00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 1: rode rit or sent often for him, and were for aught. 513 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 1: He knew glad of him too. He is a man 514 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:05,840 Speaker 1: that doth disclaim that ever he detected a witch, or 515 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:09,120 Speaker 1: said thou art a witch, only after her trial by 516 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,200 Speaker 1: search and their own confessions, as he as others may judge. 517 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 1: Three lastly, judge how he fleeceth the country and enriches 518 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: himself by considering the vast sum he takes of every 519 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 1: town he demands, but twenty shillings a town, and doth 520 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:29,280 Speaker 1: sometimes ride twenty miles for that, and hath no more 521 00:31:29,440 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: for all his charges thither and back again. And it 522 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: maybe he stays a week there and find there are 523 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: three or four witches, or if it be but one, 524 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:40,640 Speaker 1: cheap enough, and this is the great sum he takes 525 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:44,960 Speaker 1: to maintain his company with three horses. Hopkins partner John 526 00:31:45,000 --> 00:31:48,080 Speaker 1: Stern published his own defense of their work, called A 527 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:53,400 Speaker 1: Confirmation and Discovery of Witchcraft, and like Hopkins, Stern pushed 528 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: back on criticisms that quote, there are no witches, but 529 00:31:56,600 --> 00:31:59,960 Speaker 1: that there are many poor, silly, ignorant people hanged wrongfully, 530 00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,560 Speaker 1: and that those who have gone or been instruments in 531 00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: finding out or discovering those of late made known have 532 00:32:05,800 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 1: done it for their own private ends, for gain and 533 00:32:08,960 --> 00:32:12,640 Speaker 1: such like, favoring some where they thought good, and unjustly 534 00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:17,400 Speaker 1: prosecuting others. Unlike Hopkins, who made only one direct reference 535 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:21,880 Speaker 1: to King James's demonology, Stern's work cites a lot more references, 536 00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: especially Bible verses. There are so many book chapter in 537 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,960 Speaker 1: Birth citations, especially in the first portion of this, that 538 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,640 Speaker 1: it is difficult to read. It's like every third word 539 00:32:31,840 --> 00:32:34,040 Speaker 1: is a book of the Bible, and some chapters and verses. 540 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: By the time Stern published his book in sixty eight, 541 00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: The East Anglia, which trials were essentially over. As English 542 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: Civil War drew to a close, the courts got back 543 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: to a more normal operation, and the number of witchcraft 544 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 1: accusations dropped. People were also less inclined to trust Hopkins 545 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: and Stern in the face of such vocal criticism about 546 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: their methods. Hopkins was also dead. He published his defense 547 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: of his work Flee, three months before he died. He 548 00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: was probably in his mid to late twenties, and his 549 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: pursuit of Witches and East Anglia had lasted for less 550 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: than three years. Although there is a popular story that 551 00:33:11,240 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 1: Hopkins was eventually convicted of witchcraft himself, he actually died 552 00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:18,720 Speaker 1: of tuberculosis, which was probably affecting his health for most 553 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: or all of the witch trials that he was part of. 554 00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 1: He was buried at miss Ley with Manningtree on August twelve, seven, 555 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 1: and today he is said to haunt miss Ley Pond 556 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 1: and other sites around the area. He's also the focus 557 00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: of the nineteen film witch Finder, which is directed by 558 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 1: Michael Reeves and Stars. Previous podcast subject Vincent Price and 559 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:46,320 Speaker 1: best actor of all time. I never speak in superlatives, 560 00:33:46,400 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: but I sure do love and some Price, and he 561 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: has a rad little bob in that movie. Yeah, Holly 562 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,840 Speaker 1: and I had a conversation before U, before this whole 563 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: outline was even done, really about how I'm so used 564 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: to seeing Vincent Price clean shaven or with a beard 565 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:08,719 Speaker 1: that seems to denote I am evil, like a little 566 00:34:08,800 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: very pointy beard that h for when I watched the 567 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 1: trailer um to this film, which finder at first I 568 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 1: did not recognize him, Like his face is there in 569 00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:20,760 Speaker 1: the thumbnail and I'm like, oh, I wonder what character 570 00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:22,319 Speaker 1: he played? Oh, it's that one. As soon as you 571 00:34:22,320 --> 00:34:26,640 Speaker 1: started talking, I of course immediately knew who it was. Um, 572 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: this whole story we talked earlier about, like this incongruity 573 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:35,440 Speaker 1: between how tragic and terrible it is and how bizarre 574 00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,880 Speaker 1: and fantastic all the testimony from the trial is. But 575 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:42,000 Speaker 1: the thing that I just find the most terrifying about 576 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 1: it is that basically this guy kind of showed up 577 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:49,920 Speaker 1: out of nowhere at age twenty something, and not single handedly. 578 00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 1: There was other stuff going on. But he definitely was 579 00:34:53,080 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 1: the instigator in in these trials all across East Anglia. 580 00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 1: Um that went on for roughly three years, and then 581 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:06,760 Speaker 1: he died at with not really any experience that anybody 582 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:11,399 Speaker 1: knows of besides his own opinion about who was a witch. Yeah, 583 00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 1: it's interesting because it's it's uh one of those things 584 00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:17,919 Speaker 1: where I mean, I certainly joked in this episode about 585 00:35:17,960 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 1: all the great names for pets, but like when you 586 00:35:19,719 --> 00:35:23,359 Speaker 1: think about one person on this weird quest to do 587 00:35:23,440 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 1: this thing and how many lives he completely obliterated in 588 00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:30,799 Speaker 1: of course of it, it becomes very sobering and dismaying. Well, 589 00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: and we've also we for sure talked about figures on 590 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:39,680 Speaker 1: the podcast before who singlehandedly uh had just terrible consequences 591 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 1: and a lot of a lot of time. That was 592 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: a person who was already in a position of power, 593 00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:48,239 Speaker 1: um not not you know, the relatively well off son 594 00:35:48,280 --> 00:35:51,160 Speaker 1: of a vicar who didn't seem to have any other 595 00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:55,360 Speaker 1: notable background to to put him in that level of 596 00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: authority besides his own authority that he decided to keep 597 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: up for himself. Thanks so much for joining us on 598 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: this Saturday. Since this episode is out of the archive, 599 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:12,239 Speaker 1: if you heard an email address or Facebook U r 600 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 1: L or something similar over the course of the show 601 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 1: that could be obsolete now. 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