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Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so

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Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Uh, let's hear it for our

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Speaker 1: super producer, mister Max Copyright Williams.

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Speaker 2: I mean it was the only one. It was the

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Speaker 2: only possible nickname wise for this episode.

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Speaker 3: I actually do have a copyright on myself. Yeah, but

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Speaker 3: I mean granted, we all get copyrights as soon as

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Speaker 3: we create something.

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Speaker 4: But we'll get to that later.

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Speaker 2: Right, that's old. Yes, of course you put it out there.

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Speaker 2: Technically it's copywritten, but there's also, like you know, caveats today,

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Speaker 2: oh so many.

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Speaker 1: And it reminds me of our conversation on the Daily

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Speaker 1: Zeitgeist about stuff like the poor Man's copyright. As we'll see,

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Speaker 1: having a copyright and defending a copyright can be a

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Speaker 1: little complicated. Oh, we've got to introduce ourselves. That's mister

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Speaker 1: Noel Brown. Hi, you're Ben Bolan. That's me, and we

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Speaker 1: are continuing our series on IP, the short term for

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Speaker 1: intellectual property.

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Speaker 2: I p U P. We all pee for intellectual property.

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Speaker 2: And as we said off here, I P first, I

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Speaker 2: poop second. Yes, of course Max.

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Speaker 4: Does the too hump camell have a too hump p.

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Speaker 2: I don't understand.

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Speaker 4: It's a reference to uh, everyone poops.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, and then the less the much less popular

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Speaker 2: book Nobody Poops but you. Yeah, that's a family guy.

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Speaker 2: It's the one family guy joke. I remember.

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Speaker 1: I think they called it like a Catholic children's book

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Speaker 1: or something.

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Speaker 3: Oh, well, we're Catholic. He's like, oh, so you're a

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Speaker 3: horrible child and that is tent of sin protruding from

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Speaker 3: your body or something like that.

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Speaker 2: I gotta tell you this has nothing to do with anything,

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Speaker 2: but talking about camels reminds me of a weird prejudice

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Speaker 2: or discriminatory thought that I've I've been trying to fix

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Speaker 2: it in my own head for years, But I just

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Speaker 2: think the two hump Bactrian camels are so much cooler

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Speaker 2: than the one hump camels. Yeah, I mean it's the

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Speaker 2: classic camel. You want the two hump or else. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it's like a built in saddle.

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Speaker 1: I'm never gonna get over this. I'll have to start

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Speaker 1: hanging out with some one hump camel.

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Speaker 2: Remember when we were in the Middle East at that

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Speaker 2: market and they had camel rides, was that a one

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Speaker 2: hump or two hump had to have been a two hump.

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Speaker 2: You can't write a one hump, you'd fall right off.

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Speaker 2: You could write a one hump, you'd have to fit

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Speaker 2: it with a special sound. Yeah, that would be a copy.

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Speaker 1: And maybe you could try to copyright some of these ideas.

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Speaker 2: Oooh see, but that would be more of a patent,

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Speaker 2: wouldn't it. It would do.

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Speaker 1: Check out our earlier episodes on this subject. So in

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Speaker 1: our previous episodes we had talked about like you were saying,

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Speaker 1: Noel Pattens and all other sorts of intellectual property. But

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Speaker 1: now we're going with something our research associate Max calls

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Speaker 1: the comic sands of intellectual property copyright.

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Speaker 2: I think I get it. So we're gonna pull a

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Speaker 2: lot today from the very official copyright dot gov. Not

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Speaker 2: an org, not a commra on that. It's a gov.

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Speaker 2: It means used to mean something. Sure it, Sure did it,

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Speaker 2: Sure did. So if we go to this source, copyright

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Speaker 2: dot gov, which is pretty canonical for our purposes today,

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Speaker 2: we'll see you. We'll see it.

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Speaker 1: Even think of a copyright as a genre or type

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Speaker 1: of intellectual property. The concept is that as soon as

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Speaker 1: you fick a creative work or original work in a

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Speaker 1: tangible form of expression medium, right, yeah, medium, then your

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Speaker 1: work is protected under copyright law in the This is

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Speaker 1: by the way, this just applies to the United States.

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Speaker 1: Things get stickier when you travel around the globe. But no,

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Speaker 1: what is original work for this?

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Speaker 2: Something that's a creative work that an individual produces from

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Speaker 2: their mind. Place. That could include paintings, photographs, musical compositions,

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Speaker 2: original recordings, which is its own issue because there's lots

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Speaker 2: of different stakeholders. And musical recording because you've also got

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Speaker 2: the writing, you've got the actual property, the masters, all

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Speaker 2: that stuff. We'll get into that. That's one of my

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Speaker 2: particular nerddoms. Computer programs, software, video games, books, poems, any

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Speaker 2: kind of blog posts would technically fall under this. Films,

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Speaker 2: architectural works and the plans thereof right, plays, sonnets, I

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Speaker 2: guess that falls under poetry, illustrations, you know, comic books.

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Speaker 1: It's pretty much creative acts, right, and a tangible form

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Speaker 1: of expression is It's a well intentioned it's a well

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Speaker 1: intentioned distinction, but it can also get a little sticky

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Speaker 1: when we're talking about the nature of something being tangible,

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Speaker 1: like dance, Is it choreographed dance, something you could copyright.

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Speaker 2: I was gonna ask, and I think, well, that's a

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Speaker 2: good question, because you do often hear about choreography being

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Speaker 2: lifted or borrowed or stolen. I actually saw a thing

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Speaker 2: yesterday on Instagram where it was some digital you know,

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Speaker 2: kind of independent digital creator showing some sort of animatic

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Speaker 2: that they had made and published online of a fight scene,

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Speaker 2: like a lightsaber ish type fight scene, and then the

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Speaker 2: ab frame of a I believe a Marvel movie that

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Speaker 2: lifted every aspect including camera angles of that original work,

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Speaker 2: which that yeah, I don't I have to dig deeper

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Speaker 2: into that, but I was gonna ask the same thing.

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Speaker 2: Can you copyright like a funny walk I've seen, I've

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Speaker 2: seen a video the video you're talking about, or something

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Speaker 2: very much like it. Okay, it happens. Yeah, it happens frequently.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's complex to stage a choreographed fight safely,

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Speaker 1: add in a way that still looks real.

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Speaker 2: And carries the story.

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Speaker 1: It may be a situation where the stunt coordinator or

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Speaker 1: the person responsible for choreographing the fight just uses their

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Speaker 1: own stuff sometimes, but in the video you're referencing, it

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Speaker 1: did look clearly like a lift.

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Speaker 2: This was a person who had made the original thing saying,

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Speaker 2: hey look at this.

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Speaker 1: At these they said, I didn't make the second version

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Speaker 1: of this, so I took it. I do want to

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Speaker 1: point out that copyright dot gov does one more, very

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Speaker 1: unusual thing for dot gov website. They have an exclamation

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Speaker 1: mark in their definition. They say architectural works, plays, and

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Speaker 1: so much more.

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Speaker 2: Gosh, how much more? A copyright duck of enlighten us.

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Speaker 2: Copyrights can be either original, meaning that they're created independently

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Speaker 2: by a unique human author. Boy a boy, We're gonna

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Speaker 2: start getting into some real interesting territory with AI, Like

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Speaker 2: can someone copyright an AI work they have prompted into existence?

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Speaker 2: That's all another question for another day. And have a

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Speaker 2: minimal degree of creativity that definitely describe AI work. Look,

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Speaker 2: I'm not trying to poo poo all AI work. And

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Speaker 2: then there's an interesting AI artwork, weird kind of use

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Speaker 2: of the technology yet there, But boy a boy, is

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Speaker 2: a lot of it hack or it can be fixed?

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Speaker 2: And what does that mean exactly?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So before we get to that, let's go to

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Speaker 1: a minimal degree of creativity. Just please, for an example,

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Speaker 1: let's say like, I used to have a lot of

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Speaker 1: technical writing gigs. So let's say you are a technical

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Speaker 1: writer and you're not crafting some philosophical exploration of the

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Speaker 1: nature of the soul, but instead you're like, here are

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Speaker 1: the requirements for this sort of request for funding prosentural writing. Right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's a good way to put it. And so that

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Speaker 1: would still qualify as a copyright. But to your question

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Speaker 1: about something being fixed, that means that it is captured

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Speaker 1: in some way with the approval of the author the

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Speaker 1: creator in a quote sufficiently permanent medium such that the

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Speaker 1: work can be perceived, reproduced, or communicated for more than

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Speaker 1: a short time, so it's no longer ephemeral.

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Speaker 2: And this gets into an interesting place back to the

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Speaker 2: music nerdom with like tapers, people that follow bands around

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Speaker 2: in tape concerts. A lot of jam type bands, you know,

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Speaker 2: the Fish and the Grateful Dead and the Liking Gizzard

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Speaker 2: and the Lizard Wizard. They are all about tapers, and

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Speaker 2: they do not pursue any kind of you know, recompence

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Speaker 2: for people putting these recordings out. King Gizzard in particular

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Speaker 2: actually releases the masters of their albums, their original creative works,

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Speaker 2: and allows individuals to press them in unique and creative ways,

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Speaker 2: and they don't ask for a dime of that. They

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Speaker 2: just ask for a copy of the work of the

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Speaker 2: thing so they can add it to their like crazy

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Speaker 2: archive of like versions of their albums.

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Speaker 1: And they also so we're Gizzard fans, folks, they also

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Speaker 1: have done something really smart there. You could say it's

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Speaker 1: just creativity welcoming more creativity, but it also is huge

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Speaker 1: for growing their fandom. It's a great way to good will. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's a great way to pull in new listeners. It's

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Speaker 1: brilliant move. But this is the thing what makes copyrights

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Speaker 1: different from say other kinds of IP, like a pat

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Speaker 1: and it's because you get back to copyright dot gov.

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Speaker 1: Everyone is a copyright owner, ridiculous historians. You're listening now.

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Speaker 1: If you ever made anything original, you kind of have

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Speaker 1: a copyright. It just goes back to you, know how

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Speaker 1: you defend it, Like if you take a photograph, you

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Speaker 1: write a nifty little poem, you record a new song,

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Speaker 1: you're the author of it. And ma's with the comic

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Speaker 1: Sands analogy. I want to shout out your your allusion

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Speaker 1: to that excellent McSweeney's article which is all about fonts fighting.

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Speaker 4: You're welcome. I wrote that all for I wrote that

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Speaker 4: specifically for you, Ben.

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Speaker 2: For all the font heads out there, for all the fun.

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Speaker 2: We got our gizzard heads, and we gizz heads and

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Speaker 2: we got our font heads. So a trademark, right, is

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Speaker 2: a brand right. It's like a a company name, you know,

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Speaker 2: or the name of a product for example. There is

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Speaker 2: a certain similarity to that with regards to copyright. Whereas,

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Speaker 2: if you're the first one to use a trademark, I

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Speaker 2: believe you got a little bit of skin in the game.

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Speaker 2: If you can prove that you used it first in

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Speaker 2: a certain region, then you do have a little bit

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Speaker 2: of an argument for shutting somebody else down from using it,

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Speaker 2: just by virtue of being first to market with that thing. Similarly,

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Speaker 2: with the creative work, if you can show through timestamps

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Speaker 2: of original source files, for example, or a digital photograph

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Speaker 2: for example, that has embedded metadata on it, the shows

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Speaker 2: you did it before X person that claims it, there's

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Speaker 2: your argument as well. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So in the world of writing, one thing you

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Speaker 1: hear a lot about is the poor band's copyright, because

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Speaker 1: putting it in the post through an official government institution

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Speaker 1: gets you that stamp right, it proves that you have

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Speaker 1: done this thing by this point in time. But as

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Speaker 1: we've said before, oh for a.

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Speaker 2: Thing that maybe isn't it so digital? Literally are showing

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Speaker 2: that you mailed this. There is then a record and

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Speaker 2: a postmark that dates it in time, and you can

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Speaker 2: use that as your argument.

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Speaker 1: So I'm if I maybe don't trust my publisher entirely,

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Speaker 1: then I print something out, I mail it somewhere so

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Speaker 1: I can say, you know, HarperCollins or whatever, I made

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Speaker 1: this thing, not whatever story you're claiming. Of course, HarperCollins would.

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Speaker 2: Not do that, probably not, And that would be particularly

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Speaker 2: important if you were super old school and maybe you

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Speaker 2: only did your writing on a typewriter. Right as a

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Speaker 2: post center, I emphasized writer. It's just fine to emphasize

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Speaker 2: the wrong word. But if you were doing it electronically,

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Speaker 2: you would obviously have that timestamp and wouldn't necessarily need

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Speaker 2: to send it to the post. I believe those two

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Speaker 2: things accomplish the same task, right, yeah, yeah, And everything.

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Speaker 1: We're describing is an attempt to again secure some sort

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Speaker 1: of confirmation or authentication of the time in which a

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Speaker 1: thing was created, registering a work, officially getting the copyright

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Speaker 1: through the system isn't mandatory, but for things made in

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Speaker 1: the US, registration or refusal of registration is necessary if

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Speaker 1: you want to enforce the rights of the copyright in

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Speaker 1: court through litigation. This means like, if you register correctly

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Speaker 1: on time and don't do the poor man's copyright, folks,

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Speaker 1: it gets sticky in court. If you register correctly on time,

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Speaker 1: then you have the right to sue people to get

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Speaker 1: some compensation, to ask for damages from the court, to

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Speaker 1: get the offending party to pay your attorney fees in

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Speaker 1: case of a lawsuit. You're essentially taking out insurance. You're

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Speaker 1: paying a little bit of protection money just in case someone.

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Speaker 2: Comes for you later. Yeah, and you really hit on

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Speaker 2: an important point there, Ben is. A copyright is not

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Speaker 2: a blanket protection from litigation. It just is your argument

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Speaker 2: in court that hopefully you know, will give you the

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Speaker 2: upper hand. In the same way that we've talked about

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Speaker 2: things like fair use. You can technically use a copywritten

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Speaker 2: work legally if it's transformative or if it falls under

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Speaker 2: these certain educational educational whatever, But that doesn't mean that

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Speaker 2: the copyright owner isn't going to come after you and

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Speaker 2: you're gonna have to defend your fair use in court,

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Speaker 2: which could well be expensive, and you could well lose.

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Speaker 1: Without being without being two in the weeds here folks

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Speaker 1: peak behind the curtain. We have, over the course of

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Speaker 1: our careers, separately and together, dealt with issues like this firsthand.

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Speaker 1: One time, writing a show called Stuff of Genius, I

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Speaker 1: got in trouble with the creators of the Frisbee. They

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Speaker 1: were surprisingly whimsical about.

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Speaker 2: It, you know, for kids, right.

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Speaker 1: And then we got you got to call a flying

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Speaker 1: disc unless you have Frisbee's permission, turns.

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Speaker 2: Out so, and that is a that is a trademark.

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Speaker 1: Issue, right, And we got into another issue. Well, we

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Speaker 1: got in front of an issue here on our own

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Speaker 1: dear ridiculous history when we loved having the law and

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Speaker 1: Order sound c after we said Casey on the case

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Speaker 1: referring to our pala casey pegram h. And then we realized, uh,

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Speaker 1: there could be some litigation involved because they're very protective

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Speaker 1: of that specific even though it's so short that specific sound.

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Speaker 2: Bump, Oh dick Wolf, don't play now, he will come

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Speaker 2: for you. There's a term that's about to pop up

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Speaker 2: phono record, which I really dig It sounds as our

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Speaker 2: glorious President would say, it's an old fashioned word PHONEO record,

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Speaker 2: it's an old fat it's a but beautiful word, and

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Speaker 2: it means, of course recording. But a lot of especially

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Speaker 2: in the last maybe twenty now, this is much longer

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Speaker 2: than that. There are a lot of copyrights, and it

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Speaker 2: almost falls under copyright and trademark when you have a

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Speaker 2: sound like you're talking about ben like, for example, the

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Speaker 2: McDonald's jingle, or any little tiny audio id for perhaps

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Speaker 2: for a radio station or for a brand, that's both

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Speaker 2: a trademark and a copyright.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and what are the craziest versions of this that

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Speaker 1: I remember hearing about? Oh gosh, earlier this year, I

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Speaker 1: was on the road when I heard about this. Apparently,

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Speaker 1: you guys, the dude who goes to wrestling matches and says,

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Speaker 1: let's get ready to rumble, he's not going to do

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Speaker 1: the voice. He owns it and he is super plugged

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Speaker 1: into anybody else using it.

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Speaker 2: Well, if that's like your one thing, I mean, I look,

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Speaker 2: no shade on the guy. Maybe he's an excellent painter

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Speaker 2: or something in his probably life, but you know that's

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Speaker 2: his bread and butter, and he's of course going to

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Speaker 2: defend that if if he was lucky enough and smart

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Speaker 2: enough to lock that down, he did. Yeah, he super

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Speaker 2: dups locked it down.

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Speaker 1: You also, if you have a copyright registered here in

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Speaker 1: the United States, you have the right to make what

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Speaker 1: we call derivative works based on your original work. So

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Speaker 1: let's say you have a you have a song called

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Speaker 1: third Man case idea, and then you decide you're going

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Speaker 1: to make a salsa version or a merengue version, because

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Speaker 1: why not. You could totally do that because you own

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Speaker 1: the original thing. You can also distribute copies or as

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Speaker 1: we said, phono records of the work to the public,

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Speaker 1: so you can sell it to people. You can also

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Speaker 1: sell the copyright itself or rent it out or grant

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Speaker 1: limited permission for people to use your thing.

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Speaker 2: Like technically you are not supposed to what's the word

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Speaker 2: I'm looking for present, Let's say a copy written work,

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Speaker 2: you know, for money. Like if you're if you own

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Speaker 2: a cinema, for example, and you're showing films and you

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Speaker 2: aren't paying the copyright, you're gonna get shut down. Or

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Speaker 2: even if you're like doing it in a public square

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Speaker 2: and charging admission, or I think even if you're not

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Speaker 2: charging in mission MM hm.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, people have gotten in trouble before for things like

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Speaker 1: private gatherings sometimes where you just you know, we all

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Speaker 1: know the classic fall and summer move. You wait till

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Speaker 1: the weather's nice, you get a big blank wall or heck,

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Speaker 1: a bedsheet of work, and then you have a projector

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Speaker 1: get a movie night in the backyard. People have gotten

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Speaker 1: in trouble for that, even though it is so unreservedly wholesome, right,

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Speaker 1: And it's also pretty rare that someone would come after

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Speaker 1: you for something like that. Just because it's rare, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't mean it hasn't happened. Yeah, it has happened, for sure.

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Speaker 1: And the copyright Your copyright rights also include things like

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Speaker 1: for I mean the work publicly.

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Speaker 2: That's what I was That's the word I was looking for, Ben.

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Speaker 2: This performance Yeah, yes, technically a projecting something is a

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Speaker 2: is a kind of performance.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, if you had a really curmudgeonly copyright owner or

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Speaker 1: a real go getter lawyer. Right, So that could be

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Speaker 1: anything for musical performance to a play, to choreography, literary recitation.

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Speaker 1: And I like how copyright dot Gov even points out pantomime.

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Speaker 2: I did not know. I was not aware of the

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Speaker 2: wide world of mime law. Memory, Oh, mime law. It's

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Speaker 2: only only second to bird law. And yeah, I mean

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Speaker 2: I think I've expressed a little bit of confusion about

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Speaker 2: this at the top. But choreography and pantomime their own

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Speaker 2: their own category. Individual movements, dance steps themselves are not

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Speaker 2: copyrightable as in one particular aspect. But when you chain

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Speaker 2: them together and you make it into a a you know,

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Speaker 2: a unique combination of them, then it becomes a copyrightable.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you can't own put your left foot in,

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Speaker 1: but you can own hokey pokey, that's right. And you

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Speaker 1: can't own the color blue, but you can own a

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Speaker 1: work that incorporates the color blue and involves unique combinations

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Speaker 1: of like, you know, other colors, like the IBM logo

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Speaker 1: sure beating example.

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Speaker 2: So you can also display the work publicly. These are

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Speaker 2: basic things. They make sense. That's the what of the copyright.

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Speaker 2: Oh and just really quickly, I'm sorry I'm hung up

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Speaker 2: on this, but I was just I found an article

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Speaker 2: on Copyright Alliance, which is a dot org. And here's

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Speaker 2: just a little clarification around the movement aspects. Here are

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Speaker 2: some things that are not copyrightable. Yoga positions, a celebratory

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Speaker 2: end zone dance move or athletic victory gesture, ballroom folk line,

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Speaker 2: square and swing dances or general exercise routines. And here's

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Speaker 2: the funny one. And I wonder if there's some wiggle

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Speaker 2: room here skateboarding or snowboarding tricks. But what if you

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Speaker 2: had one that was like had never been done before,

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Speaker 2: Like surely there's some way to at the very least

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Speaker 2: like trademark. Maybe that's more of a trademark thing where

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Speaker 2: you're calling it the thing and it's associated with a

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Speaker 2: particular skate or snowboarder.

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Speaker 1: Right like you're Tony Hawk. You make some amazing new

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Speaker 1: trick and somebody you can own for that. But it's

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Speaker 1: also it's kind of a dick move to stop other

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Speaker 1: skateboarders from trying that because they're aspiring. It's it's flattery

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Speaker 1: for them to want to learn from you. It's uh,

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Speaker 1: it's interesting too because I would pause it, fellow ridiculous

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Speaker 1: historians that in each of those cases that we heard

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Speaker 1: read off on that list from the Alliance, we see

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Speaker 1: a little bit of history. Someone definitely tried to copyright

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Speaker 1: an end zone dance. Someone definitely tried to copyright aligne dance.

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Speaker 1: That's why it's that's why there are there's such specificity

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Speaker 1: of language here. It reminds me of walking into stores

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Speaker 1: and seeing a really specific warning SIGDN, like you see

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Speaker 1: no shirt, no shoes, no service, and you're like, who

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Speaker 1: just walked in here in their underwear? And how often

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Speaker 1: did it happen? Because it had to happen often enough

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Speaker 1: for somebody to look at their coworker and say, crap,

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Speaker 1: we need a sign.

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Speaker 2: Max did it? Max did it? Max is an underwear guy, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: he's for sure. It also reminds me of the scene

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Speaker 2: in Wayne's World where Wayne starts playing a thing that

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Speaker 2: sounds nothing like stairway to Heaven, by the way, and

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Speaker 2: then that gets our shop attendant them down, shut them down,

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Speaker 2: points to the sign that says no stairway to Heaven.

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Speaker 2: But I was also thinking it'd be funny to have

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Speaker 2: a no showboating rule for stores that like don't allow

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Speaker 2: you to do you know, peacocky end zone dances, you

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Speaker 2: know while I'm in the store or music stores.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, or I want to find the most specific law

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Speaker 1: or warning sign in his store has an incredibly crazy

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Speaker 1: story behind it, you know, like no misbehaving horses. No

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Speaker 1: lama spitting after six pm.

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Speaker 2: Well, that reminds me of an episode that I'm certain

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Speaker 2: we did just about odd laws still in the monks

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Speaker 2: in certain states. That sounds like, you know, that would qualify.

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Speaker 1: The reason I'm harping on the history here is because

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Speaker 1: what we do. We talked about the what of the

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Speaker 1: copyright and you can probably already see some of the

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Speaker 1: some of the sticky wickets, but we also want to

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Speaker 1: talk about the when. When did this become a thing?

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Speaker 1: How did we get in this real situation. It might

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Speaker 1: surprise some of us in the audience tonight to realize

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Speaker 1: that yet trademarks might date all the way back to

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Speaker 1: the Medieval Age in Western Europe, but copyright as a

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Speaker 1: concept is way more recent.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. According to the Intellectual Property Rights Office direct quote

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Speaker 2: from them, the world's first copyright law is the Statute

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Speaker 2: of and an Act that in England in seventeen ten.

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Speaker 2: This act introduced for the first time the concept of

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Speaker 2: the author of a work being the owner of its

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Speaker 2: copyright and laid out fixed terms of protection. This is

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Speaker 2: a long one, BM, but I think worth reading. You

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Speaker 2: want to want to pick it.

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Speaker 1: Up, sure, Following this Act, copyrighted works were required to

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Speaker 1: be deposited at specific copyright libraries and registered at the

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Speaker 1: Stationer's Hall. So what this means to pause here, is

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Speaker 1: that your copyright has to go through a very specific system,

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Speaker 1: and if a version of your thing is not deposited

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Speaker 1: at these specialized libraries, then it is not copyrighted. Even

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Speaker 1: if you wrote it, it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 2: But in those days there was no automatic copyright protection

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Speaker 2: for unpublished works, which we've talked about today doesn't necessarily

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Speaker 2: have to have been published and just needs to have

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Speaker 2: been committed to a medium. Continuing from Intellectual Property Rights Office,

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Speaker 2: legislation based on the Statute of ann gradually appeared in

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Speaker 2: other countries, such as the Copyright Act of seventeen ninety

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Speaker 2: in the United States, but copyright legislation remained uncoordinated at

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Speaker 2: an international level until the nineteenth century.

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Speaker 1: And one bully Boy bonus points for the founding fathers

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Speaker 1: of the US, they talk about this in the Constitution

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Speaker 1: in Article one, section eight. That's the same part of

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Speaker 1: the text that we mentioned in previous episodes that establishes

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Speaker 1: the rules of the legal road for patents and trademarks.

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Speaker 1: So let's go the Burn Convention of not Bernie Sanders

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Speaker 1: reference ber Ee. In eighteen eighty six, the Burn Convention

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Speaker 1: is introduced, and it's kind of coordinating everybody together at

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Speaker 1: an increasingly connected world. So the Burn Convention is this

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Speaker 1: just it's an agreement to say, hey, different countries have

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Speaker 1: some being like a copyright for their domestic population, so

432
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: let's all just respect the copyright like a German copyright

433
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 1: should still carry o.

434
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,600
Speaker 2: The credits should transfer to France as well. Yeah, exactly.

435
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,919
Speaker 2: Let's simplify this a little bit. It does away with

436
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 2: the need to register those works independently in separate countries.

437
00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 2: It also has been the Burned Convention adopted by almost

438
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 2: all the nations of the world. So following the US

439
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,679
Speaker 2: as adoption of the treaty in nineteen eighty eight, wow,

440
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:37,400
Speaker 2: the convention now covers almost all major countries, but not

441
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 2: all of them, you know what I mean?

442
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: And being covered on paper is maybe not the same

443
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 1: thing as being covered in practice. Like a shout out

444
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 1: to the Chinese publishing industry where since we were recently

445
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 1: talking about Harry Potter, you might be interested to know, Yeah, definitely,

446
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:00,359
Speaker 1: Alice too is dope, you might be interested to know

447
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 1: that there are a ton of Harry Potter books published

448
00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 1: in China, at least from my understanding, that are not

449
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 1: written by JK.

450
00:27:11,359 --> 00:27:14,560
Speaker 2: Rowling. Someone just liked the idea of Harry Potter. Well,

451
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 2: and we're here. We'd call that fanfic, and technically that's prosecutable, right,

452
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 2: but it usually isn't because it is considered sort of

453
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 2: like a niche internet culture thing, and they don't get

454
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 2: too much of a Gizzard concert totally. I suppose that's. Yeah,

455
00:27:31,200 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 2: that's fair, but it usually doesn't get enough traction or

456
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 2: generate enough revenue that it's worth anybody's time to go

457
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:39,440
Speaker 2: after like all these individual fanfic writers. But over there

458
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,159
Speaker 2: in China it's a little separate issue, isn't it.

459
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:46,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, And look, one of the biggest changes that comes

460
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:51,400
Speaker 1: about with the Burn Convention was to extend copyright protection

461
00:27:51,640 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: to things that hadn't been published two unpublished works and

462
00:27:55,840 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: then remove that long standing requirement for registration. That means

463
00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:05,080
Speaker 1: there's good news, folks. That means that as an individual

464
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: or is the organization that you're working for, if you,

465
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,480
Speaker 1: you say, have a job doing podcasts, you automatically own

466
00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,199
Speaker 1: the copyright of any work produced as soon as it

467
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 1: is recorded in some way, drawing it, filming it, writing

468
00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:24,400
Speaker 1: it down. And this is good overall for the creators

469
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: of original works. It's a system that helps people retain

470
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 1: ownership and agency and get compensated for their time. But

471
00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:47,239
Speaker 1: it's still kind of fragmented as a system globally, so

472
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:50,240
Speaker 1: the rules in your neck of the global woods may

473
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: be very different from those in another place. And one

474
00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: of the things we have to ask about, of course, is,

475
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,320
Speaker 1: all right, let's say we got a copyright, how long

476
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: does this bad boy last? The general rule, which is

477
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: kind of weird, The general rule is that for things

478
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 1: created after nineteen seventy eight, copyright protection applies for the

479
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: life of the creator and then seventy years after that.

480
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:22,760
Speaker 2: At which point it enters into the public domain, which

481
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:28,320
Speaker 2: we've seen happen for a handful of legacy properties in

482
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 2: the last handful of years, like Winnie the Pooh. I

483
00:29:31,280 --> 00:29:35,160
Speaker 2: believe a version of Mickey Mouse, the Steamboat Willie version

484
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 2: of Mickey Mouse, certain songs. I'm trying to think of

485
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,680
Speaker 2: some big examples, So those are the two that come

486
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 2: to mind.

487
00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're in my head with the mention of Disney,

488
00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: because Disney has for a long time used its enormous

489
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: power and heft to conduct legal disputes for protecting especially

490
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 1: they're older creations. So the nineteen twenty eight cartoon Steamboat

491
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,120
Speaker 1: Willie entered public domain in like twenty twenty four.

492
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 2: I think that's right.

493
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, And so do check out do check out all

494
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: of the the kerfuffle there, and you'll see how seriously

495
00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 1: companies like Disney take the concept of rights and trademarks

496
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: and copyrights.

497
00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 2: Well, in the moment that happened, you started to see

498
00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,400
Speaker 2: a lot of derivative works coming out featuring some of

499
00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 2: those characters. Like there was a really cool retro kind

500
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:34,360
Speaker 2: of shooter video game that came out that I can't

501
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 2: remember the name of, but it was basically a Mickey

502
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 2: Mouse like run and gun kind of a shooter, first

503
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 2: person shooter game. And there was also like a horror

504
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 2: movie version of Winnie the Pooh called like Blood and

505
00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:47,640
Speaker 2: Honey or something like that that came out real quick,

506
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:49,880
Speaker 2: like they'd already had it in production waiting for that

507
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 2: to drop, and then they like they rushed it out,

508
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,560
Speaker 2: you know, and it made some noise because of the

509
00:30:55,560 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 2: novelty of it. Yeah, and still when something enters public domain.

510
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 2: It's not the end of the game, especially for a

511
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 2: company as powerful as Disney, because this is more a

512
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,479
Speaker 2: trademark thing, but they have a legal leg to stand

513
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 2: on if they go back to court and say, hey,

514
00:31:13,880 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 2: our buddy, steamboat Will is in the public domain. But

515
00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 2: the way it's being used in this instance could lead

516
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:25,640
Speaker 2: people to think Disney has officially approved this or endorsed it,

517
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 2: or it to Disney product. So if you came out

518
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 2: with something called, for example, Steamboat Billy and Steamboat Billy

519
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 2: is slapped on things that look like Disney stuff, then

520
00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 2: you can get in trouble. That's exactly right.

521
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,280
Speaker 1: It's not the end of the game. But eventually, after

522
00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:50,840
Speaker 1: a certain amount of time, your copyright is gone. It's

523
00:31:50,880 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: in the public domain. And this has led a lot

524
00:31:55,480 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 1: of companies, especially in the entertainment industry, to continue create

525
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:05,800
Speaker 1: new copyrighted material. Right you create, That's why they create

526
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 1: new distinct versions of Mickey Mouse to sort of section

527
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 1: out or block out the time window of copyright. So

528
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:18,600
Speaker 1: each of those different Mickeys has a different copyright.

529
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:24,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, the different iterations, the different eras, etcetera. And

530
00:32:24,600 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 2: like Disney to your point earlier, ben is the kind

531
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 2: of company that can is so powerful that it can

532
00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 2: almost like affect the law. Yeah, for some time they

533
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,600
Speaker 2: kept that Steamboat Willie version of Mickey out of the

534
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 2: public domainion, and then they were able to extend that

535
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,680
Speaker 2: much longer than any mere moral would be able to do. Yeah,

536
00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 2: they were just pushing the time window further and further

537
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 2: and probably putting a lot of lawyers' kids through college,

538
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. So there's a silver lining there,

539
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:58,000
Speaker 2: and now the question becomes, Okay, can you use a

540
00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 2: copyright that is not yours? Kind of Yeah, exactly, you

541
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 2: sure can. I'm paraphrasing from copyright dot Gov. It's really

542
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:14,400
Speaker 2: important to know that we are all users of copyrights.

543
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 2: Every time we consume a piece of media, we are

544
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:21,120
Speaker 2: participating in that copyright. We are consuming it, reading books,

545
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 2: watching movies, listening to albums, playing video games, you know,

546
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 2: using creative software tools, enterprise stuff, whatever we were using. Yeah,

547
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,120
Speaker 2: we are using copy written works. So even if you're

548
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 2: not the owner of a work, you are still able

549
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 2: to use it. Yeah, that's the point. I mean, that's like, yeah,

550
00:33:42,640 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 2: we're putting these things out in the world, typically to

551
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 2: be consumed by others. We just want to have protection

552
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,160
Speaker 2: so that nobody can profit from it and you know,

553
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 2: take money out of our pockets.

554
00:33:53,320 --> 00:33:56,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and also howgiarize, how would you write a law

555
00:33:57,400 --> 00:34:00,280
Speaker 1: that didn't have that in there? How would you because

556
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 1: essentially you'd be saying, hey, buying a book does not

557
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: give you the right to read it, you know, so

558
00:34:06,920 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 1: it would you have a.

559
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 2: Good point, Ben, That is a really important distinction, right right. Technically,

560
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 2: if you didn't pay for it, then you're yeah, then

561
00:34:15,800 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 2: you're a bad kid. But it's also but then there's

562
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:21,280
Speaker 2: also like, I don't know, that's that's very interesting because

563
00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 2: is it technically illegal to read magazines at a bookstore? Like,

564
00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,319
Speaker 2: if you didn't pay for it, are you stealing that

565
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 2: copywritten work when you're not compensating the holder?

566
00:34:32,600 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 1: Oh, you would have to be such a busy body

567
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:38,480
Speaker 1: the problem. Yeah, I mean that's a man that's an

568
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:43,880
Speaker 1: assistant manager having a bad day. So we know that

569
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,480
Speaker 1: there are exceptions and limitations to the Copyright Act. You

570
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:53,279
Speaker 1: can find this listed on copyright dot gov. There are

571
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,640
Speaker 1: things we've talked about already, like fair use and the

572
00:34:55,680 --> 00:35:01,360
Speaker 1: first sale doctrine. There are some thankful, some specific rights

573
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:05,759
Speaker 1: for archives and libraries. You know, it gets complicated with

574
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:09,320
Speaker 1: cable and satellite as well. Let's not even get into

575
00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: televise sports for a moment.

576
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 2: Max. That was for you.

577
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 1: And we know that there are things that are never

578
00:35:17,840 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: protected by copyright, like facts and discoveries. You can patent,

579
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:28,360
Speaker 1: you know, a new wonder drug based on scientific research

580
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:33,239
Speaker 1: you've done, but you can't patent the scientific truths that

581
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: you discovered in your research, yes, or like you can

582
00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 1: patent maybe or I don't know, see what about like

583
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: naming an element.

584
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 2: On the periodic table, or like discovering a new metal

585
00:35:43,520 --> 00:35:46,359
Speaker 2: for example, that is a naturally occurring thing and you

586
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 2: maybe can name it after yourself and register that, but

587
00:35:49,800 --> 00:35:53,720
Speaker 2: you don't like own the material. Yeah, no, you can't

588
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:58,359
Speaker 2: be like the nickel king. You can try. You could

589
00:35:58,400 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 2: hoard your nickels like a smile, you know, start hord

590
00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:06,279
Speaker 2: Dungeon for pennies too, folks. The last US penny was

591
00:36:06,520 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 2: just was just stamped. No, the last penny dropped. The

592
00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 2: last penny dropped.

593
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:16,399
Speaker 1: Uh and uh I am as as you know, nol,

594
00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,160
Speaker 1: I am beyond excited about that. I think it's great,

595
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 1: But uh, I wanted to make space and just send

596
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,360
Speaker 1: our condolences to anybody who's a fan of those little

597
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: tourist penny stamper machines.

598
00:36:28,320 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 2: Anybody wants to do a candlelight vigil for pennies, We're

599
00:36:31,520 --> 00:36:32,000
Speaker 2: here for it.

600
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 3: Now.

601
00:36:32,520 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 2: I know, man, you've got, you got, You've got beef

602
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,439
Speaker 2: with pennies. I don't they make your fingers smell weird.

603
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 2: I don't care for him either, and they're when's the

604
00:36:40,480 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 2: last time you spend a penny?

605
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 4: Second?

606
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:43,880
Speaker 2: Second?

607
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:47,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, we should have got rid of them, like decads.

608
00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:49,640
Speaker 2: It does seem like a bit of a waste of material,

609
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:50,479
Speaker 2: So I'm with you guys.

610
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:53,919
Speaker 1: Canada was in front of us on that one for sure,

611
00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 1: so thank you to our northern neighbors. Now, at this point,

612
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:03,280
Speaker 1: we know that current all pre nineteen sixty two US

613
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: works are in the public domain because copyright protection has expired.

614
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 1: But again, powerful forces can change the law and push

615
00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:16,239
Speaker 1: that conversation, so at some point it won't be a

616
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 1: surprise when copyright law once again evolves, especially with all

617
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:27,280
Speaker 1: the technological breakthroughs we've been talking about in this episode. Nola,

618
00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,440
Speaker 1: I think it's pretty exciting as we're wrapping up here

619
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,800
Speaker 1: to realize that we're all copyright owners.

620
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:35,799
Speaker 2: All copyright owners and users. And if you want a

621
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:39,839
Speaker 2: little bit of a nugget of current events information at

622
00:37:39,840 --> 00:37:42,640
Speaker 2: the end, here the handful of pieces of work that

623
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:45,680
Speaker 2: are entering the public domain in twenty twenty six. Coming

624
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 2: up are some books William Faulkner's As I Lay Dying

625
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:54,640
Speaker 2: and The Incredible Detective Mystery, nor author dashil Hamnet's The

626
00:37:54,719 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 2: Multese Falcon, the book, not the movie. Excellent movie by

627
00:37:58,120 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 2: the way, with Humphrey Bogard, I believe yeah.

628
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: Also Pluto the Dog Betty Boop. In the year after that,

629
00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:10,800
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty seven, Virginia Wolf's Lighthouse, the movie Seventh Heaven.

630
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,359
Speaker 1: I'm excited about this one, the German sci fi film Metropolis,

631
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:18,200
Speaker 1: and then a bunch of music that might be familiar

632
00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: to people like Duke Ellington and Bubba Miley's collaboration Black

633
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 1: and Tan Fantasy. So we're on the precipice of some

634
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:30,120
Speaker 1: really weird and interesting stuff. I wonder what the first

635
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 1: few Faulkner derivatives are gonna be. As I Lay frying,

636
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:36,480
Speaker 1: as I spray crying, Well.

637
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,839
Speaker 2: You know, with this kind of boom in noir ish

638
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,759
Speaker 2: kind of throwbacky stuff like the Knives Out series and

639
00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 2: you know a lot of that stuff that Ryan Johnson's doing.

640
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:49,640
Speaker 2: I could see some real fun spins on Maltice Falcon.

641
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:54,399
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, that's so Falcon, which I've started saying

642
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: it's that it is.

643
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 2: Yeah. We hope you enjoyed this episode. Thank you for

644
00:38:59,640 --> 00:39:01,280
Speaker 2: two d in folks here.

645
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 1: As we're officially in the thick of the holiday season

646
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 1: at the end of the year, we can't wait to

647
00:39:06,880 --> 00:39:10,920
Speaker 1: have more ventures with you through November and throughout December

648
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:12,759
Speaker 1: and then on to twenty twenty six.

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Speaker 2: I can't believe we're saying it. We're so close to

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00:39:15,680 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 2: a new year. Indeed, huge thanks to Alex Williams, who

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00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 2: composed our theme. Oh gosh, that Max Williams, who is

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00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 2: not only our super producer at Shortinaire, but also our

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Speaker 2: research associate on this episode.

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Speaker 1: Big big thanks to aj Bahamas, Jacobs, doctor Rachel big

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00:39:29,520 --> 00:39:37,239
Speaker 1: Spinach Lance and a civil yet cold good day, Sir

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Speaker 1: to Jonathan Strickland ak the Twister.

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00:39:39,880 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 2: A bit of a boo, biting of the thumb, A

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Speaker 2: bit of a biting of the thumb. We'll see you

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Speaker 2: next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the

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00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

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Speaker 2: favorite shows.