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Speaker 1: From iHeart Podcasts, I Am Fab five Freddy and this

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Speaker 1: this fifty years of Hip Hop podcast series. As rap

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Speaker 1: music hip hop culture began to make a louder noise,

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Speaker 1: began to have a more dominant impact, it became clear,

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Speaker 1: and it was clear to a lot of people that

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Speaker 1: really understood how the cultural pieces fall that where we

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Speaker 1: were as a time, particularly Black Americans coming out of

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Speaker 1: the struggles of the sixties and seventies.

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Speaker 2: It was a.

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Speaker 1: Culture of you know, typified by George Jefferson's show, you know,

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Speaker 1: moving on up, putting that three piece suit on, and

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Speaker 1: you know, come getting off the corner and being able

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Speaker 1: to get into those executive suites in a deluxe apartment

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Speaker 1: up in the sky. So that's where a lot of

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Speaker 1: the mindset was, particularly of a lot of people that

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Speaker 1: were controlling things, or the few black executives that had

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Speaker 1: some cloud that were running things at radio, even doing

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Speaker 1: things like you know, Don Cornelius hosting Soul Trained. A

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Speaker 1: lot of these cats were not checking for this hip

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Speaker 1: hop wrap energy attitude so wagger all of that.

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Speaker 2: They were like, what are you doing. I'm not down

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Speaker 2: with that energy at all.

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Speaker 1: And that was a problem, and that was a big

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Speaker 1: barrier that this rap music thing had to overcome.

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Speaker 2: You had to be real clever about doing it.

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Speaker 1: And once again, Christmas Wrapping was one of those records

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Speaker 1: that was able to get into the door. And once

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Speaker 1: we got into the door, a lot of people knew,

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Speaker 1: let's hold that door open and let the rest of

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Speaker 1: the homies on there. So the resistance was real and

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Speaker 1: once again cultural even I remember when Curtis Blow was

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Speaker 1: on Soul Train, John Cornelius wasn't totally cool, kind of dismissive,

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Speaker 1: like this is a passing fad, I'm sure you know.

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Speaker 1: Was the attitude that many had, I mean not just black, white,

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Speaker 1: everybody they were up against and.

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Speaker 2: In resistance to the force.

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Speaker 1: The attitude, once again, the swagger, everything that hip hop is.

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Speaker 2: It was a problem.

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Speaker 1: Russell Simmons, record executive and entrepreneur.

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Speaker 3: I used to promote records in nineteen seventy nine, right,

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Speaker 3: I was a record promoter when Christmas Rapping came out.

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Speaker 3: The only black guy that really enlightened me with the

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Speaker 3: ball Bob Bill Haywood. He died, but listen like me,

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Speaker 3: he would go to club hopping with. He would see

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Speaker 3: me take him from the South Bromp to Harlem to Midtown.

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Speaker 3: The differences were profound in the club by this bean

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Speaker 3: Jay love different kind of people. To Midtown, we go

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Speaker 3: to bed Leaus and the Bittigars and Pegasus and Justine's

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Speaker 3: and all these woodgey club where.

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Speaker 4: He felt like his soup fit right.

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Speaker 3: And then we'd go downtown to the Punk rock Club,

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Speaker 3: to the Peppermint Loune, to the Munt Club, into the World,

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Speaker 3: and then we would go to the gay club. We

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Speaker 3: would go, which is where the records had to play

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Speaker 3: or they wouldn't play on the radio. We don't play

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Speaker 3: in the gay club, Frankie Croxin, So we had to

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Speaker 3: play in the garage, in the law and we had

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Speaker 3: to play in better days, we had to play in

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Speaker 3: the gallery those famous d J so influenced radio because

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Speaker 3: they were gay club and that's all we had was.

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Speaker 4: Gay disco on the radio.

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Speaker 3: So Frankie cross on one night on Christmas Eve heard

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Speaker 3: and I was there Christmas Rapper in the Paradise garage

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Speaker 3: next morning on Christmas morning, he played it one time,

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Speaker 3: never played it again for until a year later. But

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Speaker 3: that's how it got played. Larry Levan played, so you

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Speaker 3: know in the gay club was very eclusive. Can't get

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Speaker 3: in there from straight but we as Holland we figure

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Speaker 3: out a way. We smoked us to go to k

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Speaker 3: Club because that was where and he had aspiration being music,

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Speaker 3: and you know, we would go check out you know,

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Speaker 3: let Fion, but we really that was really the place

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Speaker 3: to go if you wanted to play music, because that

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Speaker 3: was what Julie Weinstein said to me. To make the

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Speaker 3: final point, black music made easy for white people to

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Speaker 3: dance too. That's what they called disco, and she was

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Speaker 3: the boss that she had disco DJs all over the country.

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Speaker 3: In that chart, the disco chart was more important the

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Speaker 3: black radio in New York. There was no funk on

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Speaker 3: that chart. So that chart with WBLS and w k

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Speaker 3: TU and the radio stations that played what we called

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Speaker 3: black music, but it was never black music. It was

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Speaker 3: black music made simple with white people today. And during

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Speaker 3: the same time that bunk was everywhere else, we were

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Speaker 3: locked out of the bunking creator All.

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Speaker 1: Russell's reminded me, man, it's just how many incredible clubs

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Speaker 1: we had in New York City up until not that

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Speaker 1: long ago, y'all. It really makes me think, man, I

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Speaker 1: mean there you can go to a different club every night,

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Speaker 1: different flavor, different kind of music. You know, mostly on

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Speaker 1: the downtown scene, but there was so many places to

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Speaker 1: go and party in New York.

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Speaker 2: Paradise Garage. I was up in there too.

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Speaker 1: It was a gay club, but on Friday it was

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Speaker 1: very mixed and some of the hot chicks used to

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Speaker 1: go through the And that sound system Larry Levan had

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Speaker 1: in the garage was something to behold, designed by the

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Speaker 1: legendary audio designer rest in Peace Richard Long. But I

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Speaker 1: just also want to add it was when Rudy Giuliani

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Speaker 1: was mayor. Yeah, that guy that he put in all

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Speaker 1: these laws in effect that totally devastated the New York

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Speaker 1: club scene. Like he enacted these cabaret laws and everything.

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Speaker 1: That took a lot of the fun out of New

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Speaker 1: York City and really was a big part in just

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Speaker 1: a lot of people that had club they just couldn't

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Speaker 1: do it because it took lots of money to get

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Speaker 1: these licenses and stuff. And that's really fascinating to just

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Speaker 1: remember what it used to be. As Russell Lazy Down

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Speaker 1: Curtis Blows Christmas Rapping, which was released back in nineteen

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Speaker 1: seventy nine. This was the first Christmas wrap record. Of course,

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Speaker 1: you know, very few rap records at the time, but

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Speaker 1: this was the first one all about Christmas, a real

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Speaker 1: clever move, and it was also the first rap record

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Speaker 1: on a major record label. This was released on Mercury Records,

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Speaker 1: and this thing was the first record to get significant

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Speaker 1: radio play across the board. And of course largely behind

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Speaker 1: this was Russell Simmons, Curtis Blow's manager at the time.

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Speaker 1: Curtis Blow legendary rapper and hip hop's first rap superstar.

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Speaker 5: I remember it was very, very difficult back in the

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Speaker 5: days when radio would not play rap music, and that

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Speaker 5: was a big problem for many of the artists. Christmas

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Speaker 5: rapping was so instrumental and the success to hip hop

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Speaker 5: because it was our first holiday classic song. Its plays

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Speaker 5: every year, and it was by design. I remember my

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Speaker 5: producers coming to me and saying that look, it's coming up.

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Speaker 5: We were in studio in August and Rappers of Light

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Speaker 5: was the number one thing all over the Natian right then,

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Speaker 5: and so we were thinking, well, how can we capitalize

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Speaker 5: on this rap on record, and so we came up

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Speaker 5: with the idea of doing a Christmas rap a holler

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Speaker 5: day rap song that would play every year during Christmas time.

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Speaker 5: So that was the greatest concept. And of course you

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Speaker 5: know the spiritually Christmas is the birthday of Christ, so

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Speaker 5: you know, we can't lose doing a song about Jesus' birthday.

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Speaker 5: So it has the longevity because it plays every year.

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Speaker 5: And of my hat goes out to all of the

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Speaker 5: radio stations around the nation. Thank you, thank you, thank

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Speaker 5: you for playing that song. Like Nat King cole Man

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Speaker 5: Man Man, you made my legacy, you made my career,

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Speaker 5: and not only me, but my family and all of

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Speaker 5: my fans all love. I'll say friends. I don't have

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Speaker 5: fans anymore. I only have friends, and so we thank

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Speaker 5: you because you made it happen and it was so

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Speaker 5: important because I'll tell you when the song came out,

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Speaker 5: it was a monster hit on the radio, and not

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Speaker 5: only on the radio but in the clubs. And I'll

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Speaker 5: tell you why it was so hot because it played

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Speaker 5: not only on doing Christmas. The song came out December nineteenth,

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Speaker 5: in nineteen seventy nine, but it played all the way

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Speaker 5: through to the summer of nineteen eighty.

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Speaker 2: At Lover Rapper. Actor radio personality and former mtvvj.

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Speaker 6: Oh God the rail Stays were playing whatever whatever was

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Speaker 6: popular in disco, whatever was popular at the time, whether

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Speaker 6: whatever kind of R and B was popular. We used

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Speaker 6: to listen to Frankie Krocer or one of the greatest

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Speaker 6: New York air personalities, or wblas And then Disco ninety

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Speaker 6: two came along and they played a whole lot of

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Speaker 6: disco that was w k tu. So whatever was popular

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Speaker 6: except if they played it, whether it was a fat

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Speaker 6: back band, a confunction or Mini Repertand or earth Ring

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Speaker 6: in Fire or Stevie Wonder or Michael Jackson and the

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Speaker 6: Jackson Five, all of that stuff got played on the

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Speaker 6: radio all the time. You got to hear anything remotely

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Speaker 6: considered hip hop was on those tapes, and you know,

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Speaker 6: the breakout Barren and the breakout for in the Cold

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Speaker 6: Crush Brothers and the Fantastic Romantic Fives. You got to

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Speaker 6: hear that stuff that was going on, and the mid

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Speaker 6: to late seventies you got to hear that.

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Speaker 4: But before that it was all it was all disco.

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Speaker 4: Got the.

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Speaker 3: Aday Phanta Monica and for all of Los Angeles we

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Speaker 3: are the hit breakers.

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Speaker 1: But that was a little taste of Kday fifteen eighty

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Speaker 1: on the AM Doll in the Los Angeles area. Yes,

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Speaker 1: K Day was the first radio station in the country

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Speaker 1: twenty four hours to play hip hop You Feel Me,

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Speaker 1: and it was so important.

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Speaker 2: This is back in the eighties, the early eighties.

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Speaker 1: On K Day was the move and Greg Mack was

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Speaker 1: the genius behind it all. Brave guy that stepped out there,

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Speaker 1: got this station fifteen eighty on the AM dow. All

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Speaker 1: you West Coast people, la, et cetera, y'all gonna know

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Speaker 1: what I'm talking about, And that was just so impactful.

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Speaker 1: They also had these mixed masters right on weekends. These

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Speaker 1: two DJs would put these incredible mixes together. Two of

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Speaker 1: those mixed masters was DJ Yeller and Doctor Dre Yes

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Speaker 1: Doctor Dre. But at this time they was in the

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Speaker 1: world class record crew NWA and all that good hip

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Speaker 1: hop energy hadn't happened yet. We just want to make

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Speaker 1: sure everybody knows this is where it begins on the

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Speaker 1: twenty four hour.

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Speaker 2: To Doc Winter.

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Speaker 1: iHeartMedia, President of Hip Hop and R and B Programming

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Speaker 1: and program director at Real ninety two point three in La.

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Speaker 7: So let's say I think hip hop the record The

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Speaker 7: first records were like in eighty two, so King ten third,

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Speaker 7: and then later on was Rappers Delight. Those records were

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Speaker 7: relegated to basically play them in the house. Somebody was

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Speaker 7: playing them on the radio. I get to Saint Louis

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Speaker 7: and eighty nine and ninety and I can't remember what

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Speaker 7: year how ninety seven started playing it. I remember that

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Speaker 7: towards like maybe ninety two ninety three. It was relegated

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Speaker 7: to six pm to nine pm, and I was a

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Speaker 7: Quiet stormhost, so I came on at nine o'clock. So

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Speaker 7: the guy that had that six to nine shift, his

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Speaker 7: name was Kevy keV by the way, still with his

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Speaker 7: good brother. That was the guy that played rap. And

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Speaker 7: that was the only time you can hear it on

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Speaker 7: the radio. Never heard it in Morning Drive, never heard it.

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Speaker 7: It was six pm to nine pm was when the

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Speaker 7: rap records came on, and he was he was, other

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Speaker 7: than the Quiet Storm guy, the most popular DJ on

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Speaker 7: the station because he played the music that the audience

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Speaker 7: was just so excited to hear and what was really

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Speaker 7: good for me And not really realizing this until later

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Speaker 7: on in life. I'd grown up in New York City,

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Speaker 7: so I had, you know, I grew up on a

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Speaker 7: New York palette of music and taste and whatnot. And

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Speaker 7: then I went to Connecticut, you know, northern, and then

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Speaker 7: I go to the Midwest, and I'm in the Midwest.

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Speaker 7: And so now because I'm in the Midwest, I'm not

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Speaker 7: only getting the New York music, I'm also getting the

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Speaker 7: West Coast music molsto probably more of the West Coast

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Speaker 7: music now. So you know, as time goes on, I'm

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Speaker 7: beginning to get ice Cube after Trey and Tupac. I'm

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Speaker 7: getting this education where it was quite possible that if

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Speaker 7: I was in New York at the time, I was

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Speaker 7: probably only going to get the New York sound. If

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Speaker 7: I was in LA, I was only going to get

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Speaker 7: the LA soundside I got a nice palat of music.

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Speaker 7: And so, you know, those records were coming through Man,

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Speaker 7: and it was like, Man, we were afraid in our

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Speaker 7: mind if those records came on before six or after nine,

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Speaker 7: it was going to hurt us from a ratings.

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Speaker 2: Perspective of from an advertisers perspective.

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Speaker 7: And so then we began to experiment playing them a

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Speaker 7: little more earlier on the weekends. Like you know, it

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Speaker 7: may come on at two o'clock on a Saturday or

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Speaker 7: on a Saturday and on a Sunday because that was

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Speaker 7: you know, that was the Devil's Music.

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Speaker 1: DJ MVY radio personality and host of the Breakfast Club.

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Speaker 8: At that time, it was very local and it was

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Speaker 8: just growing outside of New York. You got to remember

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Speaker 8: back then, it wasn't too many people playing hip hop.

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Speaker 8: So Hot ninety seven and you know when WBLS played

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Speaker 8: the little you know, hours here and hours there. Hot

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Speaker 8: ninety seven gave dedicated radio station to hip hop and

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Speaker 8: R and B, which was really amazing. They gave a

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Speaker 8: bunch of artists and it gave a bunch of people

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Speaker 8: from our community a chance to pay their bills, a

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Speaker 8: chance to go on tour, a chance to be heard.

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Speaker 8: And if it wasn't for that station and taking the chance,

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Speaker 8: I don't know where hip hop will be right now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it was just a part of the

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Speaker 1: game at that time as rap was growing, coming up,

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Speaker 1: having more impact, convincing people like, no, this is not

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Speaker 1: a trend, We're not going nowhere.

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Speaker 2: We're gonna be here for a while.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of people in charge, program directors at

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Speaker 1: various radio stations, record execs, you know, those few that

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Speaker 1: had those positions, particularly on the black side would just

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Speaker 1: not check them for it.

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Speaker 2: It was shocking to them. It was just not what

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Speaker 2: they were.

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Speaker 1: You know, if you think of R and B and

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Speaker 1: casts wearing slick suits and doing really flying with I

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Speaker 1: still love of this, but this was diametrically opposed and

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Speaker 1: I mean absolutely different in every sense of the word.

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Speaker 1: And you folks that you know from the hood and

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Speaker 1: know what I'm talking about when you can remember, like

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Speaker 1: you saw that that whole rap attitude, you know, like

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Speaker 1: when you standing there in a B boy stands you know,

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Speaker 1: you know what, your arms folded with an ice grill

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Speaker 1: on your face.

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Speaker 2: A lot of it was just posing.

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Speaker 1: But it was shocking to the cats that were running

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Speaker 1: the game, and so they were resistant. So these were

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Speaker 1: major battles, barriers that had to be broken down, and

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Speaker 1: they did. Russell Simmons definitely played a key part in

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Speaker 1: that he understood this struggle as when a few young

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Speaker 1: black execs that really came out of the scene at

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Speaker 1: that time, and these were the battles that were fought,

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Speaker 1: and like I said, fifty years in the game, baby,

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Speaker 1: these battles were won. Daddy Oh, rapper, producer, Deep Thinker

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Speaker 1: and founding member of classic Brooklyn rap group Stetso Sonic.

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Speaker 9: The first time we ever got radio play was a

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Speaker 9: guy there was There was a station in New York

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Speaker 9: called w k TU that used to play mostly like

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Speaker 9: Dance Medgan. It was a guy named Paco on KTU

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Speaker 9: that played King Tim the Third, which was a fatback

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Speaker 9: band record that had a rapping and it was kt

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Speaker 9: you that played rappers Delight Perks.

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Speaker 4: I'm talking about in the daytime.

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Speaker 9: I'm not talking about Awesome Too or Mister Magic. Do

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Speaker 9: ain't need them, you know, affricase long enough, but on

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Speaker 9: the daytime, you know. And I don't know what happened

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Speaker 9: upon you know, he stayed on the radio, But I

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Speaker 9: can imagine Paco got yelled at. I'm really killing see

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Speaker 9: him getting yelled at for play.

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Speaker 4: What are you doing?

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Speaker 2: Ye?

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Speaker 9: What are you playing this red?

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Speaker 7: Like?

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Speaker 2: You know what I mean?

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Speaker 9: Like like like, I don't know if they thought it

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Speaker 9: was like street music or it was gonna bring bad

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Speaker 9: ju ju. I don't know what they thought, but it

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Speaker 9: wasn't to their liking. And the other thing I think is,

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Speaker 9: and this probably is not a bad thing on it,

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Speaker 9: but we didn't really know how to make rackets in

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Speaker 9: the beginning so our records was like thirteen minutes four.

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Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying, Like, I'll be brutal.

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Speaker 9: When we got side, you know, we got our deal

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Speaker 9: through a context, right, we want a contest, and we

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Speaker 9: got our record deal. But when we had a demo

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Speaker 9: and the name of that demo was stets of signing.

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Speaker 9: That was the name of the demo, no hook. When

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Speaker 9: Tommy Silverman heard the record or the demo or whatever,

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Speaker 9: he said, this is good.

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Speaker 4: I like what y'all are doing.

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Speaker 9: Where's the hook?

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Speaker 2: And I said, what are you talking?

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Speaker 9: Like a chorus like something that repeats, And he said, yeah,

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Speaker 9: ain't no hook, Like ain't no hook, and none of

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Speaker 9: these ain't no hooking the message and you know what

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Speaker 9: I'm saying, like like, well, the message kind of handle hook,

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Speaker 9: but the rest of the didn't really have no hook.

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Speaker 9: And he said that thing that you say at the end, daddyo,

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Speaker 9: if you can't say it all, just say step. That

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Speaker 9: would be a nice hook. And so we went and

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Speaker 9: re recorded it and the record became just say step,

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Speaker 9: which was our first thing.

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Speaker 4: You know what I mean.

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Speaker 9: But the bottom line is that I say this all

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Speaker 9: the time, and the beginning none of us knew what

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Speaker 9: we was doing.

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Speaker 4: You listened to the.

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Speaker 9: First sugar Hill Gang album. They singing on half of

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Speaker 9: it and rapping on half of so we didn't know

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Speaker 9: what to do. Yeah, I always give Russell and Running

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Speaker 9: them the credit.

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Speaker 4: Larry Smith, God bless the debt.

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Speaker 9: But when Run came out with a full rap out,

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Speaker 9: we said, holy crap, we could do a rap out.

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Speaker 4: A lot of younger people, they.

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Speaker 9: Might not realize or might not even pring to the

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Speaker 9: information that back in the days hip hop wasn't as

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Speaker 9: it was. Everything is on demand now, so you know,

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Speaker 9: if if Flunk Mass the Flex Debut was a song

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Speaker 9: on Hot ninety seven and miss it, you could just

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Speaker 9: go to YouTube, or you could just go to whatever

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Speaker 9: five minutes later and hear it. But back in those days, man,

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Speaker 9: I remember sitting by the radio just waiting to hear

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Speaker 9: certain songs like Dana Dang Nightmas. That song just really

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Speaker 9: blew my mind because it was such a conceptual thing,

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Speaker 9: and you know, it was on the almost like the

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Speaker 9: hip hop version of the thriller, you know as Nightmares,

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Speaker 9: and of course Slick Rick and Dougie Fresh to show.

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Speaker 9: I remember uh Goo.

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Speaker 4: She mad Goo Goo Goo She.

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Speaker 9: Read like rock saying rock saying all of those records.

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Speaker 9: I was even though I was a little kid, I

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Speaker 9: knew it was a difference between what they was doing

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Speaker 9: and what New Audition was doing and what a lot

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Speaker 9: of other people was doing. I knew it was I

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Speaker 9: knew it was rap music. I knew it was a difference.

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Speaker 9: But back in those days New York radio, it wasn't

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Speaker 9: segregated like how it is now. So you had KITSELM WBLS.

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Speaker 9: Those are the two main stations, and they would play everything.

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Speaker 9: They would play Madonna, they would play luster Vandros, they

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Speaker 9: would play New addition, they would play Michael Jackson, they

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Speaker 9: would play Patti Label. But they would also play hip hop.

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Speaker 9: But hip hop would only be played certain times of

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Speaker 9: the day, believe it or not. You know, now he

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Speaker 9: turned on the radio and you want to hear a

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Speaker 9: rap song immediately, damn there. But back in those days,

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Speaker 9: early eighties, he would only hear it like certain times

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Speaker 9: a day. So I used to just stay by the

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Speaker 9: radio and I had my teeny K or Maxell cassette

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Speaker 9: tapes and I had it there, and I was just

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Speaker 9: wanted to be so on point, like I discovered that

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Speaker 9: when you want to record something off the radio instead

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Speaker 9: of having to run and plus playing record at the

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Speaker 9: same time. Our most boombox was set up you hit

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Speaker 9: the pause, but and then you hit playing record. So

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Speaker 9: when your song came on that you wanted, all you

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Speaker 9: got to do is press pause and then you start recording.

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Speaker 9: And later I'm not saying I invented the term, but later,

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Speaker 9: you know, some people would call those pores tapes.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'm definitely not taking.

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Speaker 9: Credit for none of that, but you know, I just

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Speaker 9: did it. You think about all the way back to

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Speaker 9: like eighty two or eighty three, it was just coming

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Speaker 9: on the radio, even though it was.

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Speaker 4: Out in the street.

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Speaker 9: Before that, it wasn't really getting like super crazy radio

397
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Speaker 9: play in like the late seventies and maybe like super

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Speaker 9: super early eighties. I was I was a little too young,

399
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Speaker 9: so I don't don't remember if it did, but from

400
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Speaker 9: what I understand, it wasn't really getting that much played

401
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Speaker 9: like in the late saturnies and been Dawn of the eightiing,

402
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:09,960
Speaker 9: but like eighty three, when like Runding scenes started breaking

403
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Speaker 9: and Houdini and all of those guys started making noise

404
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,919
Speaker 9: and curves blow, it would just be hearing all of

405
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Speaker 9: these new songs, you know, like damn it, Like every Weeda,

406
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Speaker 9: every other week, a new song was coming out, song Pepper,

407
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Speaker 9: and you know you just sit by the radio just

408
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Speaker 9: so you can just feel an energy.

409
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Speaker 1: Yeah, And so basically keep in mind in this fiftieth

410
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Speaker 1: year of rap music and hip hop culture just dominating

411
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Speaker 1: the whole global music space. Back at this time, if

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Speaker 1: you didn't have a cassette, a homie that knew was

413
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Speaker 1: able to tell.

414
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Speaker 2: A friend to telephrame what was really going on, you.

415
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Speaker 1: Really didn't hear any rap music on the radio. It

416
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Speaker 1: was a cassette, you know what I'm saying. Or maybe

417
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Speaker 1: you was lucky enough to be on the block with

418
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Speaker 1: those DJ's were actually doing that thing, you know what

419
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Speaker 1: I mean. You know, as we talked about in previous episodes,

420
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:05,800
Speaker 1: banging into the base of the street light, plugging in

421
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:09,600
Speaker 1: them wires to the right wires you don't get electrocuted,

422
00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,679
Speaker 1: plugging in their sound system, them amps, them speakers, and

423
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Speaker 1: let the music play.

424
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Speaker 2: That's how I went down for sure, and.

425
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Speaker 6: Love it because we were so considered mainstream at that

426
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Speaker 6: time that if you did a record like you know,

427
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Speaker 6: the first time I got protect your Neck and met

428
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Speaker 6: the man. It wasn't on LOUD, it was on wool

429
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Speaker 6: Tang Records, and it was on a tape, so we

430
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Speaker 6: we wasn't not we ain't gonna play that. We weren't

431
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Speaker 6: playing that.

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Speaker 4: That was too. That was like a year before they

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Speaker 4: even signed to LOUD.

434
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Speaker 6: So they got at me at at the Beach at

435
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Speaker 6: Jones Beach, at the Greek Greek Picnic at Jones Beach

436
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Speaker 6: and gave it to me, gave it to me on tape,

437
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Speaker 6: you know. So they didn't really have no real major

438
00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:01,719
Speaker 6: label backing that, so they wasn't going to get that.

439
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:04,840
Speaker 6: So that's where the stretching by Bethos came in and

440
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:08,240
Speaker 6: Awesome Fools came in, and even the Supreme Team you

441
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,640
Speaker 6: know before that they were there as the outlet for

442
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 6: these underground artists that was coming up that didn't have

443
00:24:15,200 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 6: that financial back in from a major l Curtis.

444
00:24:18,400 --> 00:24:22,320
Speaker 5: Blood, I was on a major label. I was guaranteed

445
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:25,680
Speaker 5: radio play. As a matter of fact, I started making

446
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:29,080
Speaker 5: these radio records and got criticized for it.

447
00:24:29,480 --> 00:24:31,320
Speaker 2: But that's okay because I did.

448
00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 5: A sacrificial move, the sacrifice of making the kind of

449
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:41,600
Speaker 5: music that was radio friendly was so very important to

450
00:24:41,920 --> 00:24:46,520
Speaker 5: spreading of course, this culture around the country. That was

451
00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 5: by design. It was a sacrifice. This is what I'm saying.

452
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:55,159
Speaker 5: And his two parts to that. Number one was I

453
00:24:55,240 --> 00:25:00,479
Speaker 5: met a reverend Jesse Jackson in nineteen eighty came up

454
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:05,560
Speaker 5: to me, pulled me to the side and said, listen, Curtis,

455
00:25:05,920 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 5: this thing hip hop, this thing rap is incredible. You guys,

456
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 5: you and your you and your fellas are the new

457
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:21,159
Speaker 5: icons of the community. And I'm going to give you

458
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 5: a message. I want you to take back to your fellas

459
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,400
Speaker 5: and you tell them. I said that this is an

460
00:25:28,440 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 5: incredible this culture of hip hop. But if you guys

461
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:37,919
Speaker 5: wanted to really big, successful and spread around the world,

462
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 5: you have to keep it clean and then they will

463
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:49,080
Speaker 5: play it. They will make it successful, all right. So

464
00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:52,879
Speaker 5: I went back to Grand Master Flash and the sugar

465
00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:58,560
Speaker 5: Hill Gang. We were doing our first national interview on radioscope.

466
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:01,840
Speaker 5: So I went at them before the interview and I

467
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:06,399
Speaker 5: told them what Jesse Jackson had said, the red had said,

468
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 5: and they all agreed, all right, all right, right then

469
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:14,720
Speaker 5: and there we started what we call the code of ethics,

470
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,159
Speaker 5: not cursing on our songs, not using for Van and

471
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 5: d and not being disrespectful, just keeping it clean so

472
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 5: we could spread it around the country.

473
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:32,080
Speaker 1: Courtis blow talking about his sacrifices were also strategic chess

474
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:37,360
Speaker 1: moves that broke down the barriers of resistance to the music,

475
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:41,920
Speaker 1: to the culture. I'm talking about hip hop and lover.

476
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:45,480
Speaker 6: Everybody had to make a clean verse, like a squeaky

477
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 6: clean version. We played clean version, no spin back. Spin

478
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 6: back came later all that. No, you went into the

479
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 6: studio after you made your dirty version and you made

480
00:26:56,240 --> 00:26:59,800
Speaker 6: a completely clean version for the radio. It was another

481
00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 6: of that spin back. It wasn't none that point. It

482
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,280
Speaker 6: wasn't none of them, dude, none of that woo, none

483
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 6: of that.

484
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 4: You made a.

485
00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 6: Completely clean version. Well snoop of them did that when

486
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:14,879
Speaker 6: he did the Doggie Style album. The stuff we played

487
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 6: was completely clean. It wasn't no beepouts, it wasn't no

488
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 6: backwards spins, it wasn't nothing. Even sometimes having to absolutely

489
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 6: change the lyrics so that it could be clean. There

490
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:30,840
Speaker 6: was no even a reference towards anything. The word was

491
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,119
Speaker 6: you didn't hear it on the radi. You just you

492
00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 6: couldn't hear all the your ads.

493
00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 4: You know.

494
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,880
Speaker 6: That's why it was always with Biggie when we played Juicy,

495
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 6: when we first started playing Juicy, it was always if

496
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:46,160
Speaker 6: you don't know now you know, you know you didn't

497
00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 6: say they didn't beat out, they didn't spend beginning backwards. No,

498
00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,360
Speaker 6: the SCC wasn't having that. So you know, everybody had

499
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 6: gone through what they was going to go through. You know,

500
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 6: look at them, how they thing with the Supreme Court

501
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 6: and all of that. I remember, you always have to

502
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 6: play the completely clean versions of their video when they

503
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,639
Speaker 6: would re edit the video for your TV rats. You know,

504
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:09,159
Speaker 6: we couldn't play We didn't play Straight out of Compton

505
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:12,680
Speaker 6: on your own TV rat. We're gonna play that video

506
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,040
Speaker 6: because of the imagery and all of that other stuff.

507
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,200
Speaker 4: No, we couldn't play that, couldn't play it.

508
00:28:17,240 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 6: There was a completely clean version of that song too,

509
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 6: so you know, you had to have what was palatable

510
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 6: to the public, what parents would not complain about, and

511
00:28:27,800 --> 00:28:31,199
Speaker 6: what passed FCC regulations without you getting a fine, And

512
00:28:31,240 --> 00:28:35,520
Speaker 6: that was a completely clean version. Everybody did it. Acts,

513
00:28:35,640 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 6: dre act, cuff acts Russell. Everybody was like, give me

514
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 6: the clean version so I could service rate completely claim

515
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 6: without all that what they do now you know that

516
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:49,560
Speaker 6: stuff didn't exist.

517
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,720
Speaker 4: It was clean claim super claim.

518
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:54,960
Speaker 1: Yes, Ed, you took me back like an eight track

519
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: right there, man, that's right, another strategic move in getting

520
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 1: this culture to wear it clean versions of all the records.

521
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 2: Hey man, listen, it was a necessary thing to do.

522
00:29:07,000 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: But I'm sure for Ed even particular, like being a

523
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 1: guy that was on the radio, you really knew we

524
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 1: could only play the clean version, no matter how dope

525
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 1: it was. But as soon as you left the radio,

526
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 1: you knew what was being played, right y'all. Frankie Crocker,

527
00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 1: Frankie Hollywood Crocker, huge influence on me and my musical taste.

528
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: And if you came up in New York seventies into

529
00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 1: the eighties from four pm to eight pm, like he

530
00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: used to say, if Frankie Crocker isn't on your radio,

531
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: your radio isn't really on. Frankie took that whole black

532
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: radio Jacques aesthetic, cleaned it up, polished, poised, enunciated. But

533
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: he had so much flavor, was so cool, and Frankie

534
00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: specifically wanted to elevate black radio from where it had

535
00:29:57,080 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: been once again in New York, the main black radio

536
00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 1: station for years had been sixteen hundred on the AM

537
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: dollar was WWRL. Frankie Krocker brought it to FM, you know,

538
00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:13,800
Speaker 1: it was originally WLIBFM. Then they switched it up. They

539
00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: let Frankie have total control. So Frankie was not just

540
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: the main DJ that put together all the other DJs

541
00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:24,760
Speaker 1: on WBLS. He was also the program director. Frankie had

542
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 1: his ear attuned to the mobile DJs, the disco DJs

543
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,000
Speaker 1: that preceded hip hop. And when he was at those

544
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,440
Speaker 1: parties and he saw the crowd go crazy to records

545
00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: he didn't hear about. He went to the DJ, got

546
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,719
Speaker 1: the name of a song, went and brought that record

547
00:30:42,720 --> 00:30:46,480
Speaker 1: and was playing it on WBLS within days. And he

548
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:51,160
Speaker 1: broke so many records that later became what we.

549
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 2: Know of as disco.

550
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:56,680
Speaker 1: Frankie was a true pioneer with incredible music tastes, but

551
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 1: his taste was broad. If the records would dope, Frankie

552
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: play and so he broke out of just a strict

553
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:06,680
Speaker 1: you know, black music, R and B so funk thing,

554
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: and he would play something by the Rolling Stones if

555
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 1: it was dope, something by David Bowie if it was dope.

556
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 1: When Frankie played those artists, he got a lot of

557
00:31:15,720 --> 00:31:18,000
Speaker 1: black folks that really weren't exposed to that kind of

558
00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: music open and then into them. So Frankie was a

559
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:26,560
Speaker 1: true music leader taste maker. But once again, like a

560
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 1: lot of older folks or folks from the previous generation

561
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: of smooth R and B and soul and funk and

562
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: all those things, Frankie wasn't really checking for hip hop.

563
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,560
Speaker 1: This was a musical revolution going on, and so he

564
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: was rather resistant to what was coming. Eventually, Frankie had

565
00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 1: to give in and let it go because it was

566
00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: Frankie that okay, bringing mister Magic, who was on WHBI

567
00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 1: where the Supreme Team, just a lot of superstars, Ce

568
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:58,200
Speaker 1: Devine the Mastermind were coming on in the middle of

569
00:31:58,240 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 1: the week.

570
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 2: That's super dupa late hours.

571
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 1: You had to have your cassette on pause ready to

572
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: record if you wanted to get any kind of real

573
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 1: hip hop. But Frankie saw what was going on, he

574
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,240
Speaker 1: saw the numbers, he saw of game changing, so he

575
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 1: brought mister Magic over. Because Frankie probably played a handful

576
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: of rap records sugar Hill Gang Rappers, Delight or whatever,

577
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 1: but it wasn't his thing, so it was changing of

578
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,640
Speaker 1: the guard. But Frankie Crocker huge influence from style wise,

579
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: music wise, for so many reasons.

580
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 2: Go on YouTube and just google up Frankie Crocker.

581
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 1: You can find some pieces of him in action and

582
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: get a taste of that Frankie Krocker flake doc Winter.

583
00:32:36,360 --> 00:32:37,840
Speaker 7: So as I got a little older, I mean in

584
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 7: my room and that's I got older, and I started

585
00:32:40,000 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 7: driving to school or going getting in the car with

586
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 7: my brother or my friends, they would always have BLS on,

587
00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:52,600
Speaker 7: and man like I just I was immediately entranced by

588
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 7: Frankie Crocker, Like I had never heard a brother speak

589
00:32:56,600 --> 00:33:02,680
Speaker 7: so smoothly, speak so well, be so articulate and cool,

590
00:33:02,760 --> 00:33:05,680
Speaker 7: and just like, man, this dude is This dude is

591
00:33:05,680 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 7: the man you know. And obviously you can don't imagine

592
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 7: what it was like for me years later to actually

593
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 7: meet him.

594
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,400
Speaker 2: It was it was just surreal.

595
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 7: By the time I had left for college, you know,

596
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:21,080
Speaker 7: it was a huge I've become a huge R and

597
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 7: B fan.

598
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 4: I was able to.

599
00:33:24,840 --> 00:33:29,400
Speaker 7: Distinguish the fact that WBLS was the heritage station in

600
00:33:29,440 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 7: New York City. When Frankie Crocker was on the radio,

601
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 7: you were loyal like you just didn't turn the dial

602
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 7: because it was blasphemy. And then Kiss came on, and

603
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 7: then you know, sometimes Frankie Crocker would you know, he

604
00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 7: might just decide he wanted to play an hour of

605
00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:50,080
Speaker 7: jazz and you'd be like, oh, that's interesting, and then

606
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:51,520
Speaker 7: you might sneak over.

607
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:53,840
Speaker 2: And listen to Kiss and maybe playing new Edition or something.

608
00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 4: You're like, whoa.

609
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 7: And it was like kind of like my first lesson

610
00:33:56,960 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 7: before I became a program director. Even Volert about the

611
00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,240
Speaker 7: power of you know, playing the hits at love.

612
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 6: His voice, his delivery, the fact that Frankie wasn't be

613
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,520
Speaker 6: programmed at that time. Either Frankie play whatever Frankie wanted

614
00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 6: to play, and that was the cool thing about it night.

615
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,399
Speaker 6: If you listen to Frankie, you wasn't going to get

616
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 6: the same music you got yesterday. It might be a

617
00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,839
Speaker 6: standout record that he was really into that he would

618
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 6: play or find out later on he was taking a

619
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 6: little money too. But Frankie played for Frankie wanted to play,

620
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 6: which made Frankie so dope. He was a gold standard

621
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 6: definitely of radio. He was a cool dude of radio.

622
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 6: He missed the boat on hip hop too, but can't

623
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,560
Speaker 6: be mad at him because he was already into doing

624
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 6: his own thing, you know. But definitely one of the

625
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:51,560
Speaker 6: dudes that I thought was super dope was Frankie krock Sure.

626
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 9: Daddy Oh Tyron Williams Fly Todd tells me the story

627
00:34:56,239 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 9: of how Frankie Kraker and a few of them other

628
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 9: d actually got together and started talking to other DJs

629
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 9: and saying, Yo, if y'all stopped playing hip hop, we'll

630
00:35:07,400 --> 00:35:10,280
Speaker 9: give you more salary and all of that kind of stuff.

631
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:13,760
Speaker 9: Like it just it was, I don't know, I think

632
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 9: we were the same threat that we were to everybody else,

633
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 9: you know what I mean, Like there was a lot

634
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,360
Speaker 9: of people that saw their ending in our beginning.

635
00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:26,640
Speaker 1: On the next episode of fifty Years of Hip Hop

636
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:30,720
Speaker 1: podcast series, we'll continue with all the Hits and No Rap,

637
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 1: Part two, The imminent Shit that helped change the landscape

638
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:39,760
Speaker 1: of radio top to bottom and to end. This episode

639
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 1: has been executive produced by Dolly S. Bishop, hosted and

640
00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 1: produced by your Boy five to five Freddy. Produced by

641
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: Aaron A. King Howard. Edit, mixed sound by Dwayne Crawford,

642
00:35:51,680 --> 00:35:55,840
Speaker 1: music scoring by Trey Jones, Talent booking by Nicole spence