1 00:00:14,036 --> 00:00:23,156 Speaker 1: Pushing their slogan would literally bring the war home. And 2 00:00:23,196 --> 00:00:25,236 Speaker 1: that was a metaphor at first, but it became a 3 00:00:25,276 --> 00:00:28,236 Speaker 1: literal idea of like they're gonna go to war, we 4 00:00:28,316 --> 00:00:35,316 Speaker 1: gotta go to war. I'm Khalil Jibrad Muhammad. I'm Ben Austin. 5 00:00:35,596 --> 00:00:38,836 Speaker 1: We're two best friends, one black, one white. I'm a 6 00:00:38,916 --> 00:00:41,876 Speaker 1: historian and I'm a journalist. And this is some of 7 00:00:41,916 --> 00:00:45,196 Speaker 1: my best friends are Some of my best friends are like, 8 00:00:45,836 --> 00:00:49,196 Speaker 1: I'm not a blank, some of my best friends are blank. 9 00:00:49,956 --> 00:00:52,356 Speaker 1: In this show, we're going to wrestle with the challenges 10 00:00:52,676 --> 00:00:57,196 Speaker 1: and the absurdities of a deeply divided and unequal country. 11 00:00:57,396 --> 00:01:01,596 Speaker 1: And today we're talking with zade Air's Dorn about the 12 00:01:01,836 --> 00:01:05,996 Speaker 1: lesser known history of radical movements in the sixties. There 13 00:01:06,116 --> 00:01:09,476 Speaker 1: was so much to learn about the country we live 14 00:01:09,516 --> 00:01:29,116 Speaker 1: in and the fights people have had to make it better. Man, Khalil, 15 00:01:29,156 --> 00:01:32,436 Speaker 1: I am so excited about our conversation today. Yes, we 16 00:01:32,476 --> 00:01:35,756 Speaker 1: have Zaide Dorn on the show, one of my friends, 17 00:01:36,196 --> 00:01:40,756 Speaker 1: and he has this podcast Mother Country Radicals, like on 18 00:01:40,916 --> 00:01:44,756 Speaker 1: Top ten lists, It won awards. It is this amazing 19 00:01:44,836 --> 00:01:48,876 Speaker 1: podcast that in a lot of ways is about his parents. 20 00:01:48,876 --> 00:01:54,236 Speaker 1: Bernadine Dorn and Bill Ayres. Yeah, listen, I think getting 21 00:01:54,236 --> 00:01:56,436 Speaker 1: to talk to his aid right now is so important 22 00:01:56,876 --> 00:02:00,556 Speaker 1: because as the Democrats can see, the House to the 23 00:02:00,596 --> 00:02:05,716 Speaker 1: Republicans and the investigation of the coup attempt on January sixth, 24 00:02:06,036 --> 00:02:09,516 Speaker 1: when a violent mob stormed the Capitol to try to 25 00:02:09,556 --> 00:02:14,116 Speaker 1: subvert democracy. This is an inversion of the attempts by 26 00:02:14,196 --> 00:02:18,316 Speaker 1: Bill and Bernadine Dorn back in the day to try 27 00:02:18,316 --> 00:02:21,196 Speaker 1: to change America for the better. So well, what do 28 00:02:21,236 --> 00:02:23,756 Speaker 1: you mean, what do you mean tell our listeners who 29 00:02:23,796 --> 00:02:27,396 Speaker 1: are Bill and Bernadine? Yeah, well, they are original members 30 00:02:27,476 --> 00:02:32,076 Speaker 1: of the Student for a Democratic Society, also known as SDS. 31 00:02:32,076 --> 00:02:35,636 Speaker 1: So like we're talking nineteen sixties, Yeah, early nineteen sixties, 32 00:02:35,756 --> 00:02:39,676 Speaker 1: part of a generation of young people who rejected the 33 00:02:39,836 --> 00:02:44,076 Speaker 1: Cold War anti communism of their parents, started to look 34 00:02:44,076 --> 00:02:48,356 Speaker 1: at the contradictions of American empire and inequality, the richest 35 00:02:48,356 --> 00:02:52,236 Speaker 1: country on earth with huge pockets of poverty and most 36 00:02:52,316 --> 00:02:55,636 Speaker 1: especially amongst black folks, and they wanted to change this country, 37 00:02:55,676 --> 00:02:59,316 Speaker 1: and they wanted to do something that they call participatory democracy. 38 00:02:59,996 --> 00:03:03,236 Speaker 1: And it's interesting, as you well know, because Bill and 39 00:03:03,636 --> 00:03:08,076 Speaker 1: Bernadine eventually break away from SDS. They totally broke away 40 00:03:08,236 --> 00:03:11,956 Speaker 1: they became members of the Weather Underground and a much 41 00:03:11,996 --> 00:03:15,596 Speaker 1: more radicalized group that resorted to violence to fight what 42 00:03:15,676 --> 00:03:17,876 Speaker 1: they thought was violence in the country. Yeah. It was 43 00:03:17,916 --> 00:03:21,676 Speaker 1: like violence on violence, and it's a complicated thing. And 44 00:03:21,836 --> 00:03:26,316 Speaker 1: in many ways, most of us our generation were educated 45 00:03:26,436 --> 00:03:29,836 Speaker 1: to reject what they did, to think of this as 46 00:03:29,876 --> 00:03:33,556 Speaker 1: a terrible change in direction from a country that was 47 00:03:33,596 --> 00:03:36,476 Speaker 1: getting it right, but in some ways couldn't be further 48 00:03:36,556 --> 00:03:38,556 Speaker 1: from the truth. Yeah, And I mean, this is what 49 00:03:38,636 --> 00:03:42,076 Speaker 1: I love about Zaide's podcast and about our conversation today, 50 00:03:42,596 --> 00:03:47,076 Speaker 1: is that this question of what must we do, what 51 00:03:47,196 --> 00:03:49,756 Speaker 1: should we do in the face of injustice, in the 52 00:03:49,796 --> 00:03:53,676 Speaker 1: face of grave injustice. So the Weatherman, the Weather Underground, 53 00:03:53,876 --> 00:03:56,596 Speaker 1: Bernadine Dorn and Bill Aires, they were going to risk 54 00:03:56,636 --> 00:03:59,596 Speaker 1: at all because they thought the country needed to be changed, 55 00:03:59,676 --> 00:04:03,076 Speaker 1: and they were going to take radical action. Yeah, and 56 00:04:03,156 --> 00:04:07,596 Speaker 1: that came at a cost. I mean, Zaide's mother, Bernadine, 57 00:04:07,756 --> 00:04:13,236 Speaker 1: becomes the most dangerous person in America. She is listed 58 00:04:13,236 --> 00:04:16,476 Speaker 1: on the FBI's most wanted list by Jay Edgar Hoover, 59 00:04:16,636 --> 00:04:20,396 Speaker 1: the then director of the FBI. Yeah, because they're doing 60 00:04:20,476 --> 00:04:25,356 Speaker 1: bombings and they're taking these actions. Are that involved violence? Yeah, Yeah, 61 00:04:25,396 --> 00:04:27,636 Speaker 1: And let's just say, you know, as a trigger warning, 62 00:04:27,716 --> 00:04:31,996 Speaker 1: we're not actually saying that they struck out to kill people. 63 00:04:31,996 --> 00:04:34,876 Speaker 1: In fact, it's important just before we get started that 64 00:04:35,036 --> 00:04:39,436 Speaker 1: the Weather Underground targeted buildings, they targeted property because it 65 00:04:39,476 --> 00:04:44,116 Speaker 1: was important for them to make it clear that this 66 00:04:44,196 --> 00:04:46,836 Speaker 1: country could not continue down the road that it was going. 67 00:04:47,036 --> 00:04:49,556 Speaker 1: And Zaide, because of this, ends up in the first 68 00:04:49,596 --> 00:04:52,356 Speaker 1: part of his life living underground. Yea, you know, I 69 00:04:52,756 --> 00:04:55,476 Speaker 1: know them from Chicago, but they're living in New York 70 00:04:55,476 --> 00:04:58,196 Speaker 1: and Harlem and they're hiding from the FBI early in 71 00:04:58,236 --> 00:04:59,956 Speaker 1: his life, and he's going to talk to us about that. 72 00:05:00,356 --> 00:05:02,156 Speaker 1: I got one other thing I want to say, Khalil, 73 00:05:02,236 --> 00:05:04,276 Speaker 1: what's that While we're talking to Zaide, he's got a 74 00:05:04,276 --> 00:05:06,276 Speaker 1: cat walking around and we hear it a couple of times. 75 00:05:07,716 --> 00:05:10,476 Speaker 1: He just want to tell people, it's not a sound 76 00:05:10,516 --> 00:05:14,436 Speaker 1: effect that we're putting in. Okay, all right, I think 77 00:05:14,436 --> 00:05:17,916 Speaker 1: people appreciate that, especially all those cat lovers YEP or 78 00:05:17,956 --> 00:05:21,236 Speaker 1: the cat haters. So let's let's let's get to it. 79 00:05:21,316 --> 00:05:31,436 Speaker 1: Let's talk to him. Zaid. Hello, it's so great for 80 00:05:31,476 --> 00:05:34,316 Speaker 1: you to join us on the podcast. Thanks Ben, Thanks Quil, 81 00:05:34,356 --> 00:05:36,236 Speaker 1: happy to be here. Yeah, we're so excited to have 82 00:05:36,316 --> 00:05:38,556 Speaker 1: you on the show's aide. So you're already one of 83 00:05:38,556 --> 00:05:42,636 Speaker 1: my favorite people. You know, I know your parents, your dad, 84 00:05:42,676 --> 00:05:44,676 Speaker 1: and I like a week or two ago we drove 85 00:05:44,716 --> 00:05:47,316 Speaker 1: to a prison together where we both teach, and you know, 86 00:05:47,356 --> 00:05:49,396 Speaker 1: the whole way, he's telling me stories and he's just 87 00:05:49,436 --> 00:05:53,596 Speaker 1: so like positive and outgoing. And I was thinking about 88 00:05:53,756 --> 00:05:57,876 Speaker 1: not too long ago, seeing your mom with your two daughters, 89 00:05:57,876 --> 00:06:02,516 Speaker 1: her grandchildren in the local Michaels the craft store. You know, 90 00:06:02,596 --> 00:06:05,036 Speaker 1: she's like tatted up your mom and like you know, 91 00:06:05,076 --> 00:06:07,876 Speaker 1: with all these bracelets, and her granddaughters are like embarrassed 92 00:06:07,876 --> 00:06:10,196 Speaker 1: of her, And I'm like that so interesting, just the 93 00:06:10,236 --> 00:06:12,756 Speaker 1: neighborhood like radical with her, Like you know, it was 94 00:06:12,796 --> 00:06:16,196 Speaker 1: just so normalized, not just radical, like one of America's 95 00:06:16,196 --> 00:06:19,876 Speaker 1: most wanted. Yeah, yeah, she's an institution. Although I will 96 00:06:19,956 --> 00:06:21,916 Speaker 1: tell you, like you say, embarrassed to her, and that's 97 00:06:21,916 --> 00:06:24,636 Speaker 1: true sometimes, but it's also true that, like you know, 98 00:06:24,716 --> 00:06:27,076 Speaker 1: they're bragging about her all the time. And actually when 99 00:06:27,116 --> 00:06:30,236 Speaker 1: they listened to the podcast and heard about her radical past, 100 00:06:30,476 --> 00:06:32,956 Speaker 1: they came home saying to me and my wife Rachel, like, 101 00:06:32,996 --> 00:06:35,036 Speaker 1: how come you guys aren't as cool? As the grandparents, 102 00:06:35,116 --> 00:06:38,516 Speaker 1: like I meant more embarrassed, like I'm in Michael's and 103 00:06:38,516 --> 00:06:40,916 Speaker 1: why are you speaking so loudly? Well that they're definitely 104 00:06:40,996 --> 00:06:43,996 Speaker 1: not they're embarrassed about so zaid, I know you and 105 00:06:44,036 --> 00:06:46,356 Speaker 1: your family from Chicago, from Hyde Park and from the 106 00:06:46,396 --> 00:06:49,476 Speaker 1: area on the South Side. But let's start this conversation 107 00:06:49,516 --> 00:06:53,076 Speaker 1: maybe by talking about your childhood. You grew up underground 108 00:06:53,516 --> 00:06:56,196 Speaker 1: under an assumed name, and so you have this very 109 00:06:56,236 --> 00:06:59,716 Speaker 1: early life before coming to Chicago, where you're living in 110 00:06:59,796 --> 00:07:03,316 Speaker 1: Harlem and you and your parents are on the run 111 00:07:03,436 --> 00:07:05,996 Speaker 1: from the FBI. I mean, that's crazy. Can you talk 112 00:07:06,036 --> 00:07:09,876 Speaker 1: about that experience? What was it? Like? How much did 113 00:07:09,876 --> 00:07:12,196 Speaker 1: you know? What did your parents tell you about about 114 00:07:12,276 --> 00:07:16,876 Speaker 1: living underground? Yeah, my earliest memories are road trips and 115 00:07:17,076 --> 00:07:19,996 Speaker 1: driving around and living in the Bay Area in California 116 00:07:19,996 --> 00:07:22,676 Speaker 1: and sometimes in Harlem and New York and knowing that 117 00:07:22,716 --> 00:07:25,836 Speaker 1: I had to call my parents Rose and Tony. You 118 00:07:25,916 --> 00:07:27,956 Speaker 1: knew those weren't their names, Like I knew those weren't 119 00:07:27,956 --> 00:07:29,996 Speaker 1: there their names? Yeah, And I knew that the FBI 120 00:07:30,076 --> 00:07:31,756 Speaker 1: was chasing us, although I don't think I knew what 121 00:07:31,796 --> 00:07:34,756 Speaker 1: the FBI was exactly. I mean, I knew something was 122 00:07:34,836 --> 00:07:37,236 Speaker 1: chasing us. It didn't sound good. I knew we weren't 123 00:07:37,236 --> 00:07:39,796 Speaker 1: supposed to get caught. I mean, the way my parents 124 00:07:39,796 --> 00:07:42,956 Speaker 1: explained it to me was through kind of childhood metaphors, 125 00:07:42,996 --> 00:07:45,556 Speaker 1: you know. They said were like Robin Hood, you know, 126 00:07:45,796 --> 00:07:47,556 Speaker 1: to stealing from the rich and giving to the poor. 127 00:07:47,636 --> 00:07:51,076 Speaker 1: Were like Luke Skywalker fighting against an evil empire, and 128 00:07:51,156 --> 00:07:53,396 Speaker 1: you know, we're trying to fight against racism. We're like 129 00:07:53,476 --> 00:07:55,436 Speaker 1: John Brown, We're trying you know, I mean, those kind 130 00:07:55,476 --> 00:07:58,196 Speaker 1: of people. But they would say, you know, the government 131 00:07:58,396 --> 00:08:00,156 Speaker 1: is doing a lot of bad things and we're fighting 132 00:08:00,196 --> 00:08:02,276 Speaker 1: against them. And you know, sometimes you have to resist 133 00:08:02,676 --> 00:08:04,996 Speaker 1: the government when it's in the wrong, like these people did. 134 00:08:05,036 --> 00:08:06,916 Speaker 1: And so I knew all those stories growing up, and 135 00:08:06,956 --> 00:08:08,956 Speaker 1: I knew that they were outlaws. I knew that we 136 00:08:09,156 --> 00:08:10,996 Speaker 1: if they got caught, they'd go to jail. So that 137 00:08:11,076 --> 00:08:13,636 Speaker 1: was a lot to absorb as a kid. But at 138 00:08:13,636 --> 00:08:16,636 Speaker 1: the same time, I mean, the weird thing is it 139 00:08:16,676 --> 00:08:20,116 Speaker 1: never seemed strange to me, Like any kid you're growing up, 140 00:08:20,116 --> 00:08:22,316 Speaker 1: it's all you've ever known. I just figured that's how 141 00:08:22,356 --> 00:08:24,516 Speaker 1: things were. Most of my friends were also on the run. 142 00:08:24,636 --> 00:08:27,076 Speaker 1: I had friends, you know, who were children of weathermen, 143 00:08:27,276 --> 00:08:29,796 Speaker 1: children of Black panthers and DLA people, and they were 144 00:08:29,956 --> 00:08:32,436 Speaker 1: they were all fugitives. I think this is really fascinating 145 00:08:32,436 --> 00:08:36,516 Speaker 1: because I know all of us are socialized within the 146 00:08:36,516 --> 00:08:38,796 Speaker 1: limitations of our own family. You know, I was a 147 00:08:38,876 --> 00:08:40,956 Speaker 1: kid of an educator and a photographer, and I spent 148 00:08:40,996 --> 00:08:43,116 Speaker 1: a lot of time both in my mom's classroom while 149 00:08:43,156 --> 00:08:45,116 Speaker 1: she was teaching and on the road while my father 150 00:08:45,196 --> 00:08:49,876 Speaker 1: was covering sports or political events. But here you are 151 00:08:49,996 --> 00:08:54,076 Speaker 1: being socialized within the context of this crazy radical movement. 152 00:08:54,236 --> 00:08:57,876 Speaker 1: Like I mean, there are kids today who are overhearing 153 00:08:57,916 --> 00:09:02,156 Speaker 1: their parents talk about the Trump era and having some 154 00:09:02,276 --> 00:09:05,276 Speaker 1: sense of dread and fear and anxiety that has passed 155 00:09:05,316 --> 00:09:08,076 Speaker 1: on to them. I mean, I'm trying to figure out, like, 156 00:09:08,676 --> 00:09:11,516 Speaker 1: did you do any independent research on your own. Did 157 00:09:11,516 --> 00:09:14,276 Speaker 1: you pull out the Encyclopedia Britannica, look up John Brown 158 00:09:14,356 --> 00:09:16,636 Speaker 1: and say, let me just try to figure out exactly 159 00:09:16,676 --> 00:09:19,316 Speaker 1: what's going on here? Or did you feel, even in 160 00:09:19,356 --> 00:09:22,196 Speaker 1: the conversations on the playground of Harlem like that you 161 00:09:22,236 --> 00:09:25,156 Speaker 1: were the only kid having this experience and no other 162 00:09:25,236 --> 00:09:27,636 Speaker 1: kid was like this except for you and your two brothers. 163 00:09:27,956 --> 00:09:30,396 Speaker 1: I mean, the weirdest thing about it is that I 164 00:09:30,436 --> 00:09:32,156 Speaker 1: wasn't the only kid I mean I was, of course, 165 00:09:32,196 --> 00:09:34,236 Speaker 1: I was the only kid who was whose mom had 166 00:09:34,236 --> 00:09:37,116 Speaker 1: been on the FBI's ten Most Wanted list, but who 167 00:09:37,116 --> 00:09:40,636 Speaker 1: replaced Angela Davis, by the way, just for our listeners, right, 168 00:09:41,316 --> 00:09:44,196 Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah, But you know, in my school in 169 00:09:44,276 --> 00:09:46,396 Speaker 1: New York at PS eighty four, I knew other kids 170 00:09:46,396 --> 00:09:48,796 Speaker 1: whose parents were in prison. I knew other kids whose 171 00:09:48,836 --> 00:09:51,116 Speaker 1: parents had broken the law. I knew other kids who 172 00:09:51,316 --> 00:09:53,836 Speaker 1: visited their dad in jail. So yeah, I mean it 173 00:09:53,876 --> 00:09:56,676 Speaker 1: was weird, but it wasn't that weird, and so yeah, 174 00:09:56,676 --> 00:09:58,876 Speaker 1: I was socialized into it. I mean I felt like 175 00:09:59,676 --> 00:10:02,276 Speaker 1: I knew there was something unusual about my parents, but 176 00:10:02,356 --> 00:10:05,116 Speaker 1: I admired them, still admire them. I mean I felt 177 00:10:05,156 --> 00:10:07,196 Speaker 1: like they didn't lie to me. You know one thing 178 00:10:07,236 --> 00:10:09,356 Speaker 1: when people ask me, like, how come you didn't bell 179 00:10:09,436 --> 00:10:11,836 Speaker 1: against your parents? First of all, I did rebel against 180 00:10:11,876 --> 00:10:14,076 Speaker 1: my parents the way every kid does. Right, But you 181 00:10:14,196 --> 00:10:16,996 Speaker 1: became a playwright. Yeah, yeah, exactly. They became a writer 182 00:10:17,076 --> 00:10:19,636 Speaker 1: and an artist instead of an activist. But no, I 183 00:10:19,676 --> 00:10:21,996 Speaker 1: mean I just been like I didn't come home some 184 00:10:22,156 --> 00:10:24,396 Speaker 1: nights in high school, and I did stuff they probably 185 00:10:24,476 --> 00:10:27,436 Speaker 1: wouldn't have approved of, but like making friends with the cops. 186 00:10:27,436 --> 00:10:29,636 Speaker 1: I mean, not that kind of thing. That's what I mean. 187 00:10:29,716 --> 00:10:32,116 Speaker 1: Like this, I think when people say did you rebel, 188 00:10:32,236 --> 00:10:35,196 Speaker 1: what they mean is like, were you like Michael Pete Keaton, 189 00:10:35,476 --> 00:10:38,516 Speaker 1: like being a Reagan you know, like right wing? And 190 00:10:38,636 --> 00:10:41,196 Speaker 1: I was not that at all. And I think the 191 00:10:41,236 --> 00:10:45,596 Speaker 1: reason for that is I think family ties reference. So 192 00:10:45,756 --> 00:10:48,916 Speaker 1: just for our audience, that was one of my favorite shows, 193 00:10:48,956 --> 00:10:50,996 Speaker 1: by the way, because Khalil you were you were like 194 00:10:51,036 --> 00:10:53,716 Speaker 1: Michael pee Keaton, you were totally had that vibe. I 195 00:10:53,836 --> 00:10:59,076 Speaker 1: was the Malik pee Keaton. Yeah. Yeah, But I mean 196 00:10:59,116 --> 00:11:01,756 Speaker 1: I didn't have that instinct. And I think the reason 197 00:11:02,276 --> 00:11:05,036 Speaker 1: is I think a lot of kids rebel against their 198 00:11:05,036 --> 00:11:08,076 Speaker 1: parents because they noticed the hypocrisy. You know, they see 199 00:11:08,116 --> 00:11:10,476 Speaker 1: like their parents say one thing and then they do 200 00:11:10,516 --> 00:11:13,196 Speaker 1: another thing. My parents, you know, they made mistakes, they 201 00:11:13,196 --> 00:11:15,036 Speaker 1: have problems, but they are what they say they are. 202 00:11:15,076 --> 00:11:16,676 Speaker 1: And when I was a kid, you know, if I 203 00:11:16,716 --> 00:11:18,716 Speaker 1: asked them questions about it, if I was like, why 204 00:11:18,836 --> 00:11:21,036 Speaker 1: is the FBI chasing you? What did you do? The 205 00:11:21,076 --> 00:11:23,276 Speaker 1: answers were real. You know. They didn't lie to me 206 00:11:23,316 --> 00:11:25,436 Speaker 1: about those things, and they never hid from me the 207 00:11:25,476 --> 00:11:28,076 Speaker 1: fact that they were wanted, and so I never felt 208 00:11:28,076 --> 00:11:30,636 Speaker 1: like I was being deceived. I just felt like we 209 00:11:30,636 --> 00:11:32,996 Speaker 1: were born into this situation and we had to make 210 00:11:33,036 --> 00:11:35,756 Speaker 1: the best of it. Let's take a quick break and 211 00:11:35,996 --> 00:11:38,156 Speaker 1: when we come back, we're going to talk more about 212 00:11:38,276 --> 00:11:57,476 Speaker 1: Zaid's podcast, Mother Country Radicals. It's so damn good. Welcome 213 00:11:57,516 --> 00:11:59,676 Speaker 1: back to some of my best friends. Are we're here 214 00:11:59,716 --> 00:12:02,956 Speaker 1: with Zay dorn Zaide. I just want to tell you 215 00:12:03,716 --> 00:12:08,116 Speaker 1: how fantastic your podcast is than Mother Country Radicals. It 216 00:12:08,276 --> 00:12:10,796 Speaker 1: is great in so many different ways. One is just 217 00:12:10,916 --> 00:12:13,436 Speaker 1: the storytelling that you have, like you are an amazing 218 00:12:13,436 --> 00:12:16,836 Speaker 1: writer and storyteller. The archival tape that digs into the 219 00:12:16,956 --> 00:12:20,716 Speaker 1: history of radical movements in the sixties and seventies, and 220 00:12:20,756 --> 00:12:23,556 Speaker 1: then the interviews you have, your interview your parents of course, 221 00:12:23,916 --> 00:12:28,276 Speaker 1: but everyone from Angela Davis to Black Panthers to the FBI, 222 00:12:28,356 --> 00:12:31,436 Speaker 1: the FBI agents who hunted them, you got it all. Yeah, 223 00:12:31,476 --> 00:12:34,276 Speaker 1: it's a sweeping history. And then it's also such an 224 00:12:34,316 --> 00:12:37,916 Speaker 1: intimate story. Just before you go further, Ben, I just 225 00:12:38,036 --> 00:12:42,956 Speaker 1: really appreciate how sensitive you are to the tensions, both 226 00:12:43,036 --> 00:12:48,436 Speaker 1: not romanticizing the relationship between say sds and what becomes 227 00:12:48,436 --> 00:12:50,996 Speaker 1: a Weatherman and the Black Panther Party and what becomes 228 00:12:50,996 --> 00:12:55,276 Speaker 1: a Black Liberation Army. But you find really effective ways 229 00:12:55,356 --> 00:12:58,676 Speaker 1: to show the nuances in those relationships and through storytelling 230 00:12:58,756 --> 00:13:01,276 Speaker 1: to actually help people who don't really know this history 231 00:13:01,356 --> 00:13:04,516 Speaker 1: very well to understand precisely why they would work together 232 00:13:04,556 --> 00:13:06,396 Speaker 1: and what they had in common and what they shared 233 00:13:06,436 --> 00:13:09,316 Speaker 1: in common, including the name of this podcast. You say 234 00:13:09,356 --> 00:13:12,596 Speaker 1: that Mother Country Radicals is a term that Fred Hampton 235 00:13:13,156 --> 00:13:16,876 Speaker 1: uses to describe Bernadine and Bill and so many others 236 00:13:17,356 --> 00:13:20,276 Speaker 1: as people who come from within this country and want 237 00:13:20,276 --> 00:13:23,356 Speaker 1: to change it. And it's fascinating. Here's a clip of 238 00:13:23,436 --> 00:13:26,836 Speaker 1: Fred Hampton spelling out the solidarity and why he's choosing 239 00:13:26,876 --> 00:13:28,916 Speaker 1: to call your parents that a lot of people don't 240 00:13:28,956 --> 00:13:32,956 Speaker 1: understand the Black hath Party relationship with white Mother Country 241 00:13:32,996 --> 00:13:36,476 Speaker 1: radical What we're saying is there are white people in 242 00:13:36,516 --> 00:13:38,956 Speaker 1: the Mother Country that are of the same types of 243 00:13:38,956 --> 00:13:41,116 Speaker 1: things that we are for. We said that we work 244 00:13:41,156 --> 00:13:44,676 Speaker 1: with anybody from Polish, with anybody that has revolutions on 245 00:13:44,756 --> 00:13:48,116 Speaker 1: their mind. I just think that's a really terrific intervention, 246 00:13:48,196 --> 00:13:51,076 Speaker 1: even for professional historians who have often written about this 247 00:13:51,156 --> 00:13:53,956 Speaker 1: as one or the other, as the New Left or 248 00:13:54,036 --> 00:13:57,596 Speaker 1: the black militant phase of the Black freedom struggle. No, 249 00:13:57,756 --> 00:14:00,036 Speaker 1: I appreciate that that's exactly the intervention we were hoping 250 00:14:00,076 --> 00:14:02,076 Speaker 1: to make and the thing we thought was missing from 251 00:14:02,076 --> 00:14:05,516 Speaker 1: the histories. Yeah. Yeah, maybe the best way for us 252 00:14:05,556 --> 00:14:08,076 Speaker 1: to dive in is to talk about your mom, Bernadine Dorn. 253 00:14:08,756 --> 00:14:11,636 Speaker 1: Can you tell us who she was growing up and 254 00:14:11,676 --> 00:14:14,356 Speaker 1: how she became radicalized? Yeah, I mean it's it's a 255 00:14:14,396 --> 00:14:17,036 Speaker 1: crazy story and frankly a story I didn't really fully 256 00:14:17,116 --> 00:14:20,836 Speaker 1: understand myself before I started working on the show, but um, yeah, 257 00:14:20,836 --> 00:14:23,636 Speaker 1: And the first episode is about my mom's path from 258 00:14:23,756 --> 00:14:28,316 Speaker 1: kind of smalltown Wisconsin, daughter of a Jewish immigrant. Her 259 00:14:28,436 --> 00:14:31,516 Speaker 1: dad was was this deep believer in the American dream, 260 00:14:32,036 --> 00:14:35,076 Speaker 1: sort of a small time salesman in Green Bay, Wisconsin, 261 00:14:35,476 --> 00:14:38,996 Speaker 1: staunch Republican, voted for Joe McCarthy, wanted his daughters to 262 00:14:39,116 --> 00:14:41,556 Speaker 1: kind of have the American dream. So my mom was 263 00:14:41,596 --> 00:14:43,356 Speaker 1: the first person in her family to go to college, 264 00:14:43,716 --> 00:14:45,956 Speaker 1: ended up in Chicago at the University of Chicago, ended 265 00:14:45,996 --> 00:14:48,756 Speaker 1: up in law school, and then you know, I think 266 00:14:48,796 --> 00:14:52,036 Speaker 1: my father actually taught her. That's wild. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, 267 00:14:52,076 --> 00:14:54,316 Speaker 1: And by the way, just because I need to say 268 00:14:54,356 --> 00:14:57,116 Speaker 1: this for listeners. Your mom goes to the UFC at 269 00:14:57,116 --> 00:14:59,036 Speaker 1: a moment when it is because it is about to 270 00:14:59,076 --> 00:15:03,356 Speaker 1: become like the headquarters of some of the most conservative 271 00:15:03,356 --> 00:15:09,916 Speaker 1: thinking Milton Friedman, libertarianism, voucher school, choice, economics of free 272 00:15:09,916 --> 00:15:12,836 Speaker 1: market capitalism, all of it is unfolding right at this moment. 273 00:15:13,036 --> 00:15:15,756 Speaker 1: You know, the two most famous people in my mom's 274 00:15:15,956 --> 00:15:19,036 Speaker 1: graduating law school of class where her and John Ashcroft, 275 00:15:19,076 --> 00:15:21,716 Speaker 1: George Bush's attorney general, they just had their reunion and 276 00:15:21,756 --> 00:15:24,676 Speaker 1: they were the two speakers. So that's how weird this 277 00:15:24,796 --> 00:15:27,796 Speaker 1: class is. Yeah, well that's incredible. But anyway, she ends 278 00:15:27,836 --> 00:15:30,516 Speaker 1: up at the University of Chicago and ends up volunteering 279 00:15:30,596 --> 00:15:34,036 Speaker 1: for doctor Martin Luther King's wrench strike in Chicago. So 280 00:15:34,076 --> 00:15:36,556 Speaker 1: she starts kind of just as a sort of a 281 00:15:36,636 --> 00:15:39,836 Speaker 1: volunteer legal assistant trying to give advice to tenants who 282 00:15:39,836 --> 00:15:43,956 Speaker 1: are trying to fight the slumlords in Chicago, and ends 283 00:15:44,036 --> 00:15:47,156 Speaker 1: up marching with doctor King, ends up meeting Muhammad Ali, 284 00:15:47,636 --> 00:15:51,276 Speaker 1: ultimately meeting Fred Hampton, and really kind of following those 285 00:15:51,436 --> 00:15:54,556 Speaker 1: leaders of the movement into a more and more radical 286 00:15:54,596 --> 00:15:58,076 Speaker 1: stance against the Vietnam War and racism. So it is 287 00:15:58,116 --> 00:16:02,116 Speaker 1: this crazy arc between smalltown girl in Wisconsin ends up 288 00:16:02,396 --> 00:16:05,516 Speaker 1: FBI's top ten most wanted list, And it's a story 289 00:16:05,516 --> 00:16:07,516 Speaker 1: that could have only happened at that moment, just to 290 00:16:07,636 --> 00:16:09,236 Speaker 1: dwell on this for a moment in Chicago. So it's 291 00:16:09,356 --> 00:16:12,396 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty six, the civil rights movement, at least of 292 00:16:12,436 --> 00:16:16,076 Speaker 1: the legislative phase of it, with the passage of the 293 00:16:16,116 --> 00:16:19,356 Speaker 1: Accommodations Bill in sixty four and then Voting Rights Act 294 00:16:19,356 --> 00:16:22,276 Speaker 1: in sixty five. Some believed at that moment that, you know, 295 00:16:22,316 --> 00:16:24,756 Speaker 1: the victory had been won. And yet king redirects the 296 00:16:24,836 --> 00:16:28,036 Speaker 1: movement and takes it to this open housing campaign to 297 00:16:28,236 --> 00:16:32,876 Speaker 1: essentially fight against entrenched segregation in Chicago, where the legacies 298 00:16:32,916 --> 00:16:36,476 Speaker 1: of redlining and all of it are in rightful view. 299 00:16:36,996 --> 00:16:40,556 Speaker 1: One of the most radical interventions, Doctor king Maid was saying, 300 00:16:40,996 --> 00:16:43,116 Speaker 1: not only are we going to focus on the kind 301 00:16:43,156 --> 00:16:45,516 Speaker 1: of economic freedom and the and the redlining and the 302 00:16:45,516 --> 00:16:47,516 Speaker 1: real estate question, but we're gonna do it in Chicago. 303 00:16:47,516 --> 00:16:50,636 Speaker 1: I mean, he explicitly says, We've come to Chicago to 304 00:16:50,676 --> 00:16:53,476 Speaker 1: show that racism isn't just a Southern problem, It's an 305 00:16:53,436 --> 00:16:56,836 Speaker 1: America's problem. Right, That's right. So yeah, she's with doctor 306 00:16:56,956 --> 00:16:59,236 Speaker 1: king sees him get hit by rocks as their marching 307 00:16:59,236 --> 00:17:03,756 Speaker 1: engage park. Basically, she's at an eviction. The sheriffs have 308 00:17:04,076 --> 00:17:07,876 Speaker 1: taken some you know, family's belongings out of their house 309 00:17:07,876 --> 00:17:09,836 Speaker 1: and piled them up on the walk, and all these 310 00:17:09,836 --> 00:17:13,276 Speaker 1: people have gathered to watch this, and she's watching it 311 00:17:13,356 --> 00:17:15,956 Speaker 1: as a kind of legal advisor who's trying to help 312 00:17:16,076 --> 00:17:19,596 Speaker 1: people who are being evicted. But they all feel pretty 313 00:17:19,596 --> 00:17:21,956 Speaker 1: helpless and they're standing around, and then this man next 314 00:17:21,996 --> 00:17:25,676 Speaker 1: to her asks her to hold her his coat, and 315 00:17:26,156 --> 00:17:28,796 Speaker 1: she looks over and it's Muhammad Ali, most famous person 316 00:17:28,836 --> 00:17:31,516 Speaker 1: in the world at that point. Maybe wow. And she 317 00:17:31,636 --> 00:17:33,236 Speaker 1: says to you, have you ever stood next to an 318 00:17:33,316 --> 00:17:36,676 Speaker 1: NBA player like somebody lose presence? Yeah, she says she could. 319 00:17:36,676 --> 00:17:38,796 Speaker 1: She could sense the size of the guy and just 320 00:17:38,876 --> 00:17:41,276 Speaker 1: how imposing he was, but she didn't know who he 321 00:17:41,316 --> 00:17:42,596 Speaker 1: was at first. And then she looked up and it's 322 00:17:42,636 --> 00:17:45,196 Speaker 1: Muhammad Ali standing right there. She's holding his you know, 323 00:17:45,276 --> 00:17:49,236 Speaker 1: searsucker jacket. He walks forward, he picks up a table 324 00:17:49,516 --> 00:17:51,756 Speaker 1: that the sheriffs have taken out of these these people's house. 325 00:17:51,916 --> 00:17:53,836 Speaker 1: And from my mom, that was a moment of just 326 00:17:53,916 --> 00:17:57,196 Speaker 1: realizing what direct action could look like when you when 327 00:17:57,196 --> 00:17:58,996 Speaker 1: you were able to kind of lead people in that 328 00:17:59,076 --> 00:18:02,556 Speaker 1: way with action not words, and how how much of 329 00:18:02,596 --> 00:18:05,636 Speaker 1: a difference that could make. So she takes it more 330 00:18:05,676 --> 00:18:08,956 Speaker 1: than a step further, you know, So she sees direct action, 331 00:18:09,156 --> 00:18:12,916 Speaker 1: she sees protest, and she decides that's not enough. Yeah, 332 00:18:12,916 --> 00:18:15,476 Speaker 1: I mean, maybe you can describe how and why she 333 00:18:15,596 --> 00:18:20,116 Speaker 1: turns to violence, to violent acts against this country as 334 00:18:20,196 --> 00:18:25,036 Speaker 1: her form of protest. I wondered if your mom thought 335 00:18:25,076 --> 00:18:28,436 Speaker 1: of it as violence in other words, I mean, one 336 00:18:28,476 --> 00:18:30,756 Speaker 1: of the things the podcast keeps coming back to and 337 00:18:31,076 --> 00:18:35,636 Speaker 1: making clear is that American imperialism is by definition violence. 338 00:18:35,676 --> 00:18:38,756 Speaker 1: So did she actually call it violent in their early 339 00:18:38,836 --> 00:18:42,196 Speaker 1: days or did she see it that way? I think that, Yeah, 340 00:18:42,276 --> 00:18:44,916 Speaker 1: I would say that they her idea, their idea. The 341 00:18:44,956 --> 00:18:49,116 Speaker 1: weather men were thinking about violence a lot, and what 342 00:18:49,156 --> 00:18:51,756 Speaker 1: they were thinking about is that all the violence was 343 00:18:51,956 --> 00:18:54,196 Speaker 1: on the side of the state. And so, you know, 344 00:18:54,276 --> 00:18:56,716 Speaker 1: how did she go from thinking, okay, that that kind 345 00:18:56,756 --> 00:18:59,516 Speaker 1: of non violent you know, Martin Luther King, Muhammad al 346 00:18:59,636 --> 00:19:02,076 Speaker 1: Lei direct action all the way too, we should fight 347 00:19:02,076 --> 00:19:04,316 Speaker 1: back with bombs and guns. Well, the first thing that 348 00:19:04,356 --> 00:19:06,796 Speaker 1: happened was Martin Luther King was murdered and for her. 349 00:19:06,836 --> 00:19:09,796 Speaker 1: That was a big turning point, you know that his movement, 350 00:19:10,076 --> 00:19:13,716 Speaker 1: you know, his non violent activism was met with this 351 00:19:13,876 --> 00:19:17,156 Speaker 1: lethal violence from white vigilantes in America. So that was 352 00:19:17,196 --> 00:19:19,076 Speaker 1: one thing that happened. And then the next thing that 353 00:19:19,076 --> 00:19:21,956 Speaker 1: happened was the Vietnam War escalated, and all this marching 354 00:19:21,996 --> 00:19:24,636 Speaker 1: and protesting and and kind of trying to stop it 355 00:19:24,716 --> 00:19:29,196 Speaker 1: through voter registration drives and demonstrations didn't seem to be working, 356 00:19:29,196 --> 00:19:31,396 Speaker 1: and thousands of people were being killed every day. So 357 00:19:31,436 --> 00:19:33,636 Speaker 1: that was the second thing. And then the third thing 358 00:19:33,716 --> 00:19:36,516 Speaker 1: is they became, you know, allies with the Black Panthers, 359 00:19:36,756 --> 00:19:39,116 Speaker 1: and in particular with Fred Hampton, who my mom was 360 00:19:39,236 --> 00:19:42,396 Speaker 1: quite friendly with, who's a chairman of the Illinois chapter 361 00:19:42,436 --> 00:19:44,396 Speaker 1: of the Black Panther Room. And he's like nineteen or 362 00:19:44,436 --> 00:19:46,556 Speaker 1: I think at that point he's I think he was twenty. Yeah, 363 00:19:46,556 --> 00:19:49,236 Speaker 1: but you know, a young guy five years younger than 364 00:19:49,276 --> 00:19:52,556 Speaker 1: my mom, charismatic as hell, yeah, and brilliant and a 365 00:19:52,596 --> 00:19:55,796 Speaker 1: real analysis and kind of the FBI singled him out 366 00:19:55,836 --> 00:19:58,156 Speaker 1: as a potential you know, black messiah who they were 367 00:19:58,156 --> 00:20:01,316 Speaker 1: worried might be able to you know, unite the black 368 00:20:01,356 --> 00:20:04,036 Speaker 1: freedom movement and kind of really threatened the American government 369 00:20:04,116 --> 00:20:06,316 Speaker 1: and just but just just because it's important, because this 370 00:20:06,436 --> 00:20:09,556 Speaker 1: is connected to your own, your own story, but that 371 00:20:09,716 --> 00:20:14,316 Speaker 1: he was actually connecting his analysis of American capitalism and 372 00:20:14,756 --> 00:20:17,996 Speaker 1: empire to the conditions of poor white people in Chicago 373 00:20:18,636 --> 00:20:22,316 Speaker 1: along with brown people. So this wasn't just unifying the 374 00:20:22,316 --> 00:20:25,756 Speaker 1: Black Freedom Strug, was also unifying across across racial differences 375 00:20:25,796 --> 00:20:28,116 Speaker 1: for people who had a similar class analysis. That's exactly right. 376 00:20:28,156 --> 00:20:30,036 Speaker 1: He called it the Rainbow Coalition. It was the original 377 00:20:30,076 --> 00:20:33,436 Speaker 1: before Jesse Jackson's Rainbow Coalition. It was Fred Hampton's Rainbow Coalition. 378 00:20:33,436 --> 00:20:36,876 Speaker 1: And my mom was the president of SDS at the time, 379 00:20:36,916 --> 00:20:40,396 Speaker 1: Students for Democratic Society, and STS was one of the 380 00:20:40,436 --> 00:20:43,356 Speaker 1: members of the Rainbow Coalition. So she was literally representing 381 00:20:43,356 --> 00:20:47,476 Speaker 1: the kind of white student wing of Fred Hampton's multiracial coalition. 382 00:20:47,916 --> 00:20:51,276 Speaker 1: So she was following his example. And he was doing 383 00:20:51,356 --> 00:20:54,596 Speaker 1: an incredible job of organizing all these disparate people into 384 00:20:54,676 --> 00:20:58,236 Speaker 1: this this powerful movement in Chicago, and he was being 385 00:20:58,276 --> 00:21:01,116 Speaker 1: targeted by the FBI and by police, you know, first 386 00:21:01,556 --> 00:21:06,516 Speaker 1: with harassment and arrest and intimidation, and then ultimately he 387 00:21:06,556 --> 00:21:08,876 Speaker 1: was murdered by the Chicago police. And I think for 388 00:21:08,916 --> 00:21:11,756 Speaker 1: a lot of activists, white and black, it was that 389 00:21:11,956 --> 00:21:15,396 Speaker 1: series of kind of watching black leaders be targeted and 390 00:21:15,516 --> 00:21:18,756 Speaker 1: killed over and over again, King and Med Grevers and 391 00:21:18,916 --> 00:21:23,076 Speaker 1: Fred Hampton and others, and you know, they started the 392 00:21:23,116 --> 00:21:26,076 Speaker 1: white activists like my mom started to feel like we 393 00:21:26,116 --> 00:21:28,276 Speaker 1: have to do more. We can't you be doing these 394 00:21:28,316 --> 00:21:32,156 Speaker 1: peaceful marches and resting on our privilege, which is our 395 00:21:32,196 --> 00:21:34,116 Speaker 1: privilege that the police are not going to come and 396 00:21:34,196 --> 00:21:36,436 Speaker 1: kill us because there would be an uproar, but they're 397 00:21:36,436 --> 00:21:38,836 Speaker 1: willing to kill black leaders, and so we have to 398 00:21:38,876 --> 00:21:40,996 Speaker 1: do more to try to kind of pull the attention 399 00:21:41,156 --> 00:21:44,116 Speaker 1: of law enforcement away from the panthers and make them 400 00:21:44,116 --> 00:21:46,236 Speaker 1: focus on something else. So that was I think that. 401 00:21:46,436 --> 00:21:48,196 Speaker 1: I mean, it's more complicated than that, of course, but 402 00:21:48,236 --> 00:21:51,716 Speaker 1: the Road to Violence was about watching state violence being 403 00:21:51,796 --> 00:21:53,996 Speaker 1: acted over and over and over and thinking like, we 404 00:21:54,036 --> 00:21:57,516 Speaker 1: can't just take this. We we have to give something back. 405 00:21:57,516 --> 00:22:00,436 Speaker 1: And their slogan was literally bring the war home, and 406 00:22:00,476 --> 00:22:02,476 Speaker 1: that was a metaphor at first, but it became a 407 00:22:02,556 --> 00:22:05,236 Speaker 1: literal idea of like they're going to go to war. 408 00:22:05,436 --> 00:22:07,956 Speaker 1: We got to go to war. In episode three, you 409 00:22:07,996 --> 00:22:11,356 Speaker 1: mentioned and explicitly in nineteen sixty nine alone, police had 410 00:22:11,436 --> 00:22:15,276 Speaker 1: killed twenty seven Black Panthers and had arrested seven hundred others. 411 00:22:15,916 --> 00:22:18,156 Speaker 1: And one of the things that I learned from the 412 00:22:18,196 --> 00:22:21,996 Speaker 1: podcast is that part of the strategy of the Weathermen, 413 00:22:22,156 --> 00:22:26,036 Speaker 1: working with either Black Panthers or the Black Liberation Army, 414 00:22:26,756 --> 00:22:28,876 Speaker 1: was to take some of the heat off of them, 415 00:22:29,036 --> 00:22:34,676 Speaker 1: to essentially absorb some of the state violence by creating 416 00:22:34,836 --> 00:22:39,676 Speaker 1: enough chaos through targeted strategic bombing so that the state 417 00:22:39,716 --> 00:22:42,716 Speaker 1: would focus on them at key moments as opposed to 418 00:22:42,756 --> 00:22:47,036 Speaker 1: just focusing on black radicals. That's pretty incredible, Yeah, And 419 00:22:47,076 --> 00:22:49,236 Speaker 1: you know, it's funny you mentioned earlier the kind of 420 00:22:49,236 --> 00:22:51,716 Speaker 1: the intervention we tried to do with kind of re 421 00:22:51,956 --> 00:22:54,676 Speaker 1: establishing the history of the fact that this really was 422 00:22:54,716 --> 00:22:57,836 Speaker 1: a movement about racism as much as anything else. I 423 00:22:57,876 --> 00:23:00,596 Speaker 1: think traditionally when people have written about the Weathermen and 424 00:23:00,636 --> 00:23:03,556 Speaker 1: about white activists in the sixties in general, they tend 425 00:23:03,596 --> 00:23:06,116 Speaker 1: to focus on the anti war activism, which was certainly 426 00:23:06,156 --> 00:23:08,756 Speaker 1: a part of it. But every time I went back 427 00:23:08,796 --> 00:23:10,596 Speaker 1: to the records that you know, I have a there's 428 00:23:10,756 --> 00:23:12,956 Speaker 1: archival audio of my dad giving a speech right before 429 00:23:12,956 --> 00:23:16,676 Speaker 1: the Days of Rage demonstration, and he's literally saying, we 430 00:23:16,796 --> 00:23:19,156 Speaker 1: have to take to the streets to draw the attention 431 00:23:19,156 --> 00:23:21,396 Speaker 1: to the police away from the Black Panthers. That's the 432 00:23:21,436 --> 00:23:26,636 Speaker 1: motivation this ball in Chicago. We will lead massive demonstrations 433 00:23:26,636 --> 00:23:29,436 Speaker 1: against the war in support of the Black Panther Party 434 00:23:29,836 --> 00:23:32,996 Speaker 1: and in solidarity with all political prisoners. And every time 435 00:23:33,076 --> 00:23:35,356 Speaker 1: my parents issued to communicate later when they were bombing 436 00:23:35,396 --> 00:23:38,556 Speaker 1: buildings and stuff, the communications are always about this is 437 00:23:38,556 --> 00:23:41,796 Speaker 1: in solidarity with the Black prisoners and the Black Panther Party, 438 00:23:41,796 --> 00:23:44,596 Speaker 1: and a lot of their just self conception was we 439 00:23:44,636 --> 00:23:46,836 Speaker 1: have to be out there, we have to be making 440 00:23:46,916 --> 00:23:49,916 Speaker 1: noise in order to make the government pay attention to 441 00:23:49,996 --> 00:23:53,356 Speaker 1: us instead of just being able to target black leaders. Yeah, 442 00:23:53,356 --> 00:23:55,596 Speaker 1: I mean, so Zay you're bringing that up. One of 443 00:23:55,636 --> 00:23:58,116 Speaker 1: the moments in the podcast that has stayed with me 444 00:23:58,196 --> 00:24:00,636 Speaker 1: since hearing it was I think as your mother at 445 00:24:01,156 --> 00:24:04,476 Speaker 1: an SDS convention in nineteen sixty nine, and I think 446 00:24:04,476 --> 00:24:06,916 Speaker 1: that's when they talk they become the action faction, right, 447 00:24:06,956 --> 00:24:10,636 Speaker 1: like they're like, we need to take more radical revolutionary action. 448 00:24:11,116 --> 00:24:14,316 Speaker 1: But she's up on stage with Black Panthers, and in 449 00:24:14,316 --> 00:24:17,756 Speaker 1: a way, there's this choice presented to her of fighting 450 00:24:17,796 --> 00:24:22,076 Speaker 1: missogyny or fighting white supremacy and you know, I think 451 00:24:22,076 --> 00:24:25,636 Speaker 1: about your mom in that moment, and she makes a 452 00:24:25,756 --> 00:24:27,876 Speaker 1: choice of fighting white supremacy, but I don't even think 453 00:24:27,916 --> 00:24:29,596 Speaker 1: she sees it in that choice. And you know that 454 00:24:29,636 --> 00:24:31,516 Speaker 1: she made that choice, Maybe you could unpack that a 455 00:24:31,556 --> 00:24:33,676 Speaker 1: little bit. I found it to be a fascinating moment, 456 00:24:33,676 --> 00:24:35,556 Speaker 1: and I ended up focusing on it a lot because 457 00:24:35,556 --> 00:24:38,636 Speaker 1: she was at that point the national secretary of the biggest, 458 00:24:39,236 --> 00:24:42,036 Speaker 1: well mostly white student anti war group in the country, 459 00:24:42,076 --> 00:24:44,596 Speaker 1: and they were trying to decide what was the way forward, 460 00:24:44,636 --> 00:24:47,676 Speaker 1: and a lot of the people within sts were kind 461 00:24:47,676 --> 00:24:50,116 Speaker 1: of the They were like the Bernie Bros of the time. 462 00:24:50,156 --> 00:24:53,876 Speaker 1: They were white kids who wanted to like focus on 463 00:24:53,956 --> 00:24:56,396 Speaker 1: class more than race. They wanted to go in the 464 00:24:56,556 --> 00:24:59,556 Speaker 1: factories and organize workers, and you know, they were Marxists, 465 00:24:59,556 --> 00:25:02,156 Speaker 1: and they wanted a kind of a class analysis. And 466 00:25:02,276 --> 00:25:04,796 Speaker 1: my mom and her allies in what they called the 467 00:25:04,796 --> 00:25:08,996 Speaker 1: Action Faction or what became the Weatherman Group, were thinking, 468 00:25:09,316 --> 00:25:12,836 Speaker 1: we have to follow the lead of black activists here 469 00:25:12,836 --> 00:25:18,796 Speaker 1: in America and radical nationalist anti imperialist movements abroad, like 470 00:25:18,916 --> 00:25:22,076 Speaker 1: the Vietcong, like the Tupamarrows. You know, they all had 471 00:25:22,156 --> 00:25:25,796 Speaker 1: a similar kind of sense of fighting American hegemony. But 472 00:25:26,156 --> 00:25:30,516 Speaker 1: my mom was about focusing on race and on imperialism. 473 00:25:30,756 --> 00:25:32,956 Speaker 1: And so the moment you're talking about then, what the 474 00:25:33,036 --> 00:25:35,676 Speaker 1: choice that was presented to hers. She was giving a 475 00:25:35,716 --> 00:25:38,436 Speaker 1: speech at this big convention. There was already a lot 476 00:25:38,436 --> 00:25:42,116 Speaker 1: of internal dissension and fighting within the group, and the 477 00:25:42,156 --> 00:25:44,556 Speaker 1: Black Panthers showed up, and she had actually invited them 478 00:25:44,596 --> 00:25:47,276 Speaker 1: to come and speak, yea, And they were giving a 479 00:25:47,316 --> 00:25:51,636 Speaker 1: speech about race and about American power, and one of 480 00:25:51,636 --> 00:25:53,956 Speaker 1: them said a couple of sexist things. He's you know, 481 00:25:54,036 --> 00:25:56,836 Speaker 1: somebody asked him what the place of women in the 482 00:25:56,876 --> 00:25:59,996 Speaker 1: movement was and he said prone as the position, you know, 483 00:26:00,316 --> 00:26:02,676 Speaker 1: and people started booing and there was a whole uproar 484 00:26:02,716 --> 00:26:04,876 Speaker 1: about it, and you know, my mom was presented with 485 00:26:04,916 --> 00:26:07,836 Speaker 1: this moment of like, do I denounce the Panthers for 486 00:26:08,076 --> 00:26:10,796 Speaker 1: as being sexist or do I kind of embrace the 487 00:26:10,836 --> 00:26:13,556 Speaker 1: idea that like, when given a choice, white activists have 488 00:26:13,636 --> 00:26:16,036 Speaker 1: to stand up for black people. And for her, that 489 00:26:16,116 --> 00:26:18,876 Speaker 1: was she says in the podcast, that was an easy choice. 490 00:26:18,916 --> 00:26:21,276 Speaker 1: That she considers herself a feminist, but she also thought 491 00:26:21,316 --> 00:26:25,276 Speaker 1: the Panthers were important feminist allies and La Davis, you know, 492 00:26:25,436 --> 00:26:28,036 Speaker 1: and sixty percent of the Panthers at the time were women, 493 00:26:28,596 --> 00:26:32,236 Speaker 1: so in any case, she decides, no, the SDS has 494 00:26:32,236 --> 00:26:34,796 Speaker 1: to follow the Panthers, and she basically makes a declaration 495 00:26:34,876 --> 00:26:37,196 Speaker 1: from the stage and she says, you know, we have 496 00:26:37,276 --> 00:26:39,636 Speaker 1: to be on the side of the vanguard of the revolution. 497 00:26:39,676 --> 00:26:43,076 Speaker 1: Anybody who's with me, we're leaving white youth must two 498 00:26:43,156 --> 00:26:45,956 Speaker 1: sides now. We must either fight on the side of 499 00:26:45,956 --> 00:26:48,636 Speaker 1: the oppressed or be on the side of the oppressor. 500 00:26:48,876 --> 00:26:51,036 Speaker 1: And she led half the half the group out of 501 00:26:51,036 --> 00:26:53,756 Speaker 1: the convention hall and split SDS and half more than 502 00:26:53,796 --> 00:26:57,236 Speaker 1: in half. I mean, she basically the group never recovered. 503 00:26:57,316 --> 00:27:00,076 Speaker 1: SDS was broken as an institution. But that's where the 504 00:27:00,156 --> 00:27:02,556 Speaker 1: kind of kernel of the weather Men came from. What 505 00:27:02,636 --> 00:27:07,476 Speaker 1: a badass your mom is picking up on your mom's 506 00:27:07,516 --> 00:27:11,396 Speaker 1: commitments here and essentially saying that the black Panthers are 507 00:27:11,396 --> 00:27:13,476 Speaker 1: the vanguard of the revolution and we have to follow 508 00:27:13,516 --> 00:27:16,676 Speaker 1: their lead. I mean, it seems to me that that break, 509 00:27:17,076 --> 00:27:20,636 Speaker 1: that inflection point in this radical movement has actually never 510 00:27:21,076 --> 00:27:24,396 Speaker 1: come back together again. I've been involved in a number 511 00:27:24,396 --> 00:27:28,436 Speaker 1: of conversations with leftists over the years, you know, many 512 00:27:28,436 --> 00:27:31,876 Speaker 1: of whom are white men, and there still remains this 513 00:27:31,996 --> 00:27:36,676 Speaker 1: kind of class analysis that hasn't taken stock of history, right, 514 00:27:36,756 --> 00:27:43,276 Speaker 1: That Marxism couldn't account for slavery, that the twentieth century 515 00:27:43,956 --> 00:27:48,636 Speaker 1: labor movements in the United States failed repeatedly to recognize 516 00:27:48,636 --> 00:27:52,636 Speaker 1: the shared interests of black workers and consistently chose whiteness 517 00:27:52,716 --> 00:27:55,796 Speaker 1: over solidarity. And here we are, you know, in this 518 00:27:55,876 --> 00:27:58,916 Speaker 1: moment of the sixties. And I guess I'm just really 519 00:27:58,956 --> 00:28:05,876 Speaker 1: struck by how your mom made this issue of sticking 520 00:28:05,876 --> 00:28:08,156 Speaker 1: with and standing up for black people. You know. I 521 00:28:08,196 --> 00:28:10,636 Speaker 1: think at some point that podcast says it's the central 522 00:28:10,636 --> 00:28:13,676 Speaker 1: dilemma of American history, and I just want to hear 523 00:28:13,676 --> 00:28:15,356 Speaker 1: you talk a little bit more about that, because it's 524 00:28:15,396 --> 00:28:19,636 Speaker 1: a recurring thread in the podcast itself. Yeah, you know, 525 00:28:19,676 --> 00:28:21,636 Speaker 1: it was complicated. I mean, part a lot of the 526 00:28:21,636 --> 00:28:24,876 Speaker 1: show is about the complexities of trying to be whatever. 527 00:28:24,956 --> 00:28:27,596 Speaker 1: You know, people talk about ally ship today, Right, every 528 00:28:27,636 --> 00:28:30,796 Speaker 1: time I mentioned being allies both to the weathermen and 529 00:28:30,836 --> 00:28:32,716 Speaker 1: to the panthers, they all said we weren't allies, we 530 00:28:32,716 --> 00:28:34,876 Speaker 1: were comrades. And I would try to say, what does 531 00:28:34,916 --> 00:28:37,356 Speaker 1: that mean, Like what's the difference? And they would say, 532 00:28:37,636 --> 00:28:40,516 Speaker 1: you know, ally ship means you're just kind of like, yeah, 533 00:28:40,516 --> 00:28:44,116 Speaker 1: I'm on your side. Comradeship means you're literally standing shoulder 534 00:28:44,116 --> 00:28:46,876 Speaker 1: to shoulder and fighting together. Your hands are getting dirty, 535 00:28:46,916 --> 00:28:49,716 Speaker 1: You're not, You're not You're not from a fire. Yeah, yeah, exactly. 536 00:28:49,756 --> 00:28:52,396 Speaker 1: And so these were people. I mean, again, there were 537 00:28:52,436 --> 00:28:54,476 Speaker 1: problems all throughout, and I don't mean to hold it 538 00:28:54,556 --> 00:28:56,796 Speaker 1: up as some kind of like this was an idyllic, 539 00:28:57,196 --> 00:29:00,756 Speaker 1: utopian society, but if you listen to the series, I 540 00:29:00,796 --> 00:29:04,116 Speaker 1: think you do see a model of like people who 541 00:29:04,156 --> 00:29:08,756 Speaker 1: were fighting together for the liberation of black people, but 542 00:29:08,796 --> 00:29:10,796 Speaker 1: the oberation of all people. I mean, I think the 543 00:29:10,796 --> 00:29:13,796 Speaker 1: weather Men were pretty convinced that white people couldn't be 544 00:29:13,836 --> 00:29:16,596 Speaker 1: free until black people were also free, and that you know, 545 00:29:16,716 --> 00:29:19,196 Speaker 1: they were therefore literally on the same side and literally 546 00:29:19,196 --> 00:29:21,956 Speaker 1: fighting for the same thing. And so yeah, what I 547 00:29:22,076 --> 00:29:25,076 Speaker 1: what I was impressed by with, you know, going back 548 00:29:25,076 --> 00:29:27,836 Speaker 1: over that this history is that for over a decade, 549 00:29:27,916 --> 00:29:30,996 Speaker 1: these people in the Panther Party, in the Black Liberation Army, 550 00:29:31,036 --> 00:29:33,796 Speaker 1: and in the weather Men were literally on the run 551 00:29:33,876 --> 00:29:37,236 Speaker 1: together and giving aid and comfort to each other and 552 00:29:37,676 --> 00:29:39,796 Speaker 1: aiding and abetting each other well on the run. And 553 00:29:39,836 --> 00:29:43,156 Speaker 1: that was that was real solidarity and a real attempt to, 554 00:29:43,396 --> 00:29:47,476 Speaker 1: you know, not to say like there's some theoretical economic 555 00:29:47,636 --> 00:29:50,676 Speaker 1: model that we should all be kind of focused on 556 00:29:50,836 --> 00:29:53,796 Speaker 1: as the only way to have a revolution, but really saying, look, 557 00:29:53,836 --> 00:29:56,636 Speaker 1: there's injustice right here. We all have to fight it together. 558 00:29:56,956 --> 00:29:59,676 Speaker 1: And I think that there's something powerful about that. Yeah, yeah, 559 00:29:59,716 --> 00:30:03,316 Speaker 1: for sure. And just something powerful about your parents commitments, 560 00:30:03,316 --> 00:30:06,476 Speaker 1: your mom and dad. I mean, your name from one 561 00:30:06,516 --> 00:30:10,196 Speaker 1: of the members of the Black Liberation Army who was 562 00:30:10,396 --> 00:30:13,676 Speaker 1: very much committed to these shared radical movements, and who 563 00:30:13,756 --> 00:30:17,996 Speaker 1: dies and for the sacrifice he made, your parents wanted 564 00:30:17,996 --> 00:30:20,876 Speaker 1: his memory to live all And I think that's pretty incredible. Yeah, 565 00:30:20,956 --> 00:30:22,476 Speaker 1: I'll tell you it's funny. You know. One of the 566 00:30:22,876 --> 00:30:24,676 Speaker 1: one of the most moving parts about it for me 567 00:30:24,836 --> 00:30:27,156 Speaker 1: was I never really knew much about the man I'm 568 00:30:27,196 --> 00:30:29,876 Speaker 1: named after, Zakour, you know, and so to get to 569 00:30:29,876 --> 00:30:32,516 Speaker 1: talk to some of these guys like Jamal Joseph or 570 00:30:32,556 --> 00:30:36,196 Speaker 1: seku Odinga, these Black Liberation Army guys who knew Zaid 571 00:30:36,516 --> 00:30:38,156 Speaker 1: you know, of course I never met him, he was 572 00:30:38,236 --> 00:30:41,076 Speaker 1: killed years before I was born, but hearing some of 573 00:30:41,116 --> 00:30:42,876 Speaker 1: the anecdotes about him, you know that he was this 574 00:30:42,956 --> 00:30:46,316 Speaker 1: super sharp dresser and a tailor, who made Dashiki's for 575 00:30:46,316 --> 00:30:49,276 Speaker 1: the members of the party and everything. Something really fun 576 00:30:49,316 --> 00:30:52,316 Speaker 1: about digging back into your own history, your own prehistory, 577 00:30:52,796 --> 00:30:55,516 Speaker 1: and you know, finding out the real lives of the 578 00:30:55,516 --> 00:30:59,516 Speaker 1: people whose names you carry. Yeah. So we are talking 579 00:30:59,676 --> 00:31:04,476 Speaker 1: to Zaid Ayers Dorn named after Zaide Malik Sakour, and 580 00:31:04,596 --> 00:31:08,356 Speaker 1: also talking about his radical parents, Bernadine Dorn and Bill 581 00:31:08,396 --> 00:31:12,636 Speaker 1: Ayers and his amazing podcast Mother Country Radicals. We're going 582 00:31:12,676 --> 00:31:14,556 Speaker 1: to take a break and after we come back, we're 583 00:31:14,556 --> 00:31:17,236 Speaker 1: going to talk about the future, about lessons that we 584 00:31:17,276 --> 00:31:39,436 Speaker 1: can learn from this past. Welcome back to some of 585 00:31:39,476 --> 00:31:42,356 Speaker 1: my best friends. Are we're here with Zai Dorn. Zaide 586 00:31:42,836 --> 00:31:45,876 Speaker 1: you say in Mother Country Radicals that you make the 587 00:31:45,956 --> 00:31:48,956 Speaker 1: podcast in part for your children, for your daughters and 588 00:31:49,396 --> 00:31:52,236 Speaker 1: your kids and my kids are in school together. They 589 00:31:52,276 --> 00:31:55,756 Speaker 1: know one another, they hang out their classmates, they're growing 590 00:31:55,836 --> 00:31:59,116 Speaker 1: up together. And I'm thinking, like, so, what are the 591 00:31:59,196 --> 00:32:02,236 Speaker 1: lessons right now in this country? You know, we feel 592 00:32:02,276 --> 00:32:06,276 Speaker 1: like white supremacy is ascendant again? What should we be doing? Like, 593 00:32:06,356 --> 00:32:08,476 Speaker 1: what is the lesson from the podcast from this past 594 00:32:08,516 --> 00:32:12,156 Speaker 1: that you dig too in? How should we be fighting injustice? 595 00:32:12,996 --> 00:32:14,676 Speaker 1: I think there's a couple of lessons. I mean I'll 596 00:32:14,716 --> 00:32:19,276 Speaker 1: start with the slightly more depressing one, because you know, 597 00:32:19,316 --> 00:32:21,116 Speaker 1: one of the things you do get a sense of 598 00:32:21,196 --> 00:32:23,196 Speaker 1: I think listening to the podcast, certainly I got a 599 00:32:23,236 --> 00:32:27,916 Speaker 1: sense making it is how intractable some of these problems are. 600 00:32:27,996 --> 00:32:30,516 Speaker 1: How for all the fighting that these people did, how 601 00:32:30,596 --> 00:32:33,556 Speaker 1: much we're still living in that world of racism and 602 00:32:33,596 --> 00:32:36,316 Speaker 1: white supremacy. I mean, one of the most vivid things 603 00:32:36,356 --> 00:32:39,196 Speaker 1: for me is I was making this show during the pandemic. 604 00:32:39,356 --> 00:32:42,156 Speaker 1: I was interviewing people over zoom and over and over again. 605 00:32:42,196 --> 00:32:45,836 Speaker 1: I was having these conversations with people weathermen and black panthers, 606 00:32:46,076 --> 00:32:49,076 Speaker 1: and I would ask them why they were radicalized, and 607 00:32:49,396 --> 00:32:53,156 Speaker 1: over and over again, the answer was because of police 608 00:32:53,236 --> 00:32:55,956 Speaker 1: killing a black person. You know. So it was my 609 00:32:56,036 --> 00:32:59,876 Speaker 1: mom radicalized by the killing of Fred Hampton, Jamal Joseph 610 00:33:00,196 --> 00:33:02,316 Speaker 1: radicalized first by the killing of Fred Hampton and then 611 00:33:02,316 --> 00:33:04,476 Speaker 1: by the killing of this ten year old boy, Clifford 612 00:33:04,476 --> 00:33:07,556 Speaker 1: Glover in Queens in nineteen seventy four, shot in the 613 00:33:07,556 --> 00:33:09,676 Speaker 1: back by an undercover cup And so, you know, and 614 00:33:09,716 --> 00:33:11,516 Speaker 1: I heard all these stories over and over and while 615 00:33:11,556 --> 00:33:14,596 Speaker 1: I was doing these interviews, George Floyd was murdered by 616 00:33:14,596 --> 00:33:16,556 Speaker 1: the police, and you know, we had the uprisings on 617 00:33:16,596 --> 00:33:19,756 Speaker 1: the street, and you couldn't help but be struck by 618 00:33:20,076 --> 00:33:24,236 Speaker 1: the cyclical nature of history and how disturbing and depressing 619 00:33:24,236 --> 00:33:28,116 Speaker 1: it is that these people fought so hard against white supremacy, 620 00:33:28,116 --> 00:33:31,196 Speaker 1: against police violence, and here we are in twenty twenty 621 00:33:31,236 --> 00:33:35,956 Speaker 1: twenty one, still dealing with the same problems. So one 622 00:33:36,036 --> 00:33:39,156 Speaker 1: lesson was the fight is not over, you know, and 623 00:33:39,196 --> 00:33:42,596 Speaker 1: that that can be a depressing lesson. The other lesson, though, was, 624 00:33:42,836 --> 00:33:45,876 Speaker 1: you know, it is impressive to me that every generation 625 00:33:46,396 --> 00:33:49,956 Speaker 1: throws up these people willing to fight back, willing to 626 00:33:49,956 --> 00:33:52,956 Speaker 1: put themselves on the line, willing to put their shoulders 627 00:33:52,956 --> 00:33:54,716 Speaker 1: to the wheel or whatever you want to say. Right, 628 00:33:54,956 --> 00:33:57,516 Speaker 1: And we do have these movements now, you know, everything 629 00:33:57,596 --> 00:34:01,956 Speaker 1: from Black Lives Matter to Sunrise to March for Our Lives, 630 00:34:02,356 --> 00:34:05,796 Speaker 1: young people who are rediscovering a kind of an activist 631 00:34:05,876 --> 00:34:08,476 Speaker 1: spirit and wanting to change the world in some way. 632 00:34:08,476 --> 00:34:10,476 Speaker 1: And I think, you know, every time we're in a 633 00:34:10,556 --> 00:34:14,076 Speaker 1: place in this country where it feels like bleak and 634 00:34:14,396 --> 00:34:18,756 Speaker 1: like you know, authoritarianism and law and order racism are ascendant, 635 00:34:19,036 --> 00:34:22,676 Speaker 1: you also get people fighting back against that and saying 636 00:34:22,756 --> 00:34:24,916 Speaker 1: like that's not the world we want to live in. 637 00:34:25,076 --> 00:34:27,836 Speaker 1: We want a better world, and so I think that's 638 00:34:27,876 --> 00:34:31,516 Speaker 1: the way progress works. You know, progress works through sort 639 00:34:31,556 --> 00:34:36,196 Speaker 1: of radical revolutionary imagination, and then there are there is 640 00:34:36,596 --> 00:34:40,076 Speaker 1: a reaction to that and a kind of a pushing back, 641 00:34:40,116 --> 00:34:43,156 Speaker 1: and so progress is halting and it's two steps forward, 642 00:34:43,236 --> 00:34:46,156 Speaker 1: one step back. But I think when you look at 643 00:34:46,156 --> 00:34:49,676 Speaker 1: this history, you can't help but feel inspired by both 644 00:34:49,916 --> 00:34:52,276 Speaker 1: the young people of that time, the members of the 645 00:34:52,356 --> 00:34:54,996 Speaker 1: Weather Underground, the Black Liberation Army, and the young people 646 00:34:55,036 --> 00:34:57,676 Speaker 1: of today who are trying to figure out, you know, 647 00:34:57,796 --> 00:35:00,116 Speaker 1: a better way forward. So I want to I want 648 00:35:00,116 --> 00:35:02,516 Speaker 1: to hold here and go back to even to that 649 00:35:02,836 --> 00:35:05,556 Speaker 1: question I asked about the lessons from your parents and 650 00:35:05,556 --> 00:35:09,196 Speaker 1: their activism because they resorted to violence, or not not 651 00:35:09,276 --> 00:35:12,276 Speaker 1: even resorted, they took to the streets and they committed 652 00:35:12,316 --> 00:35:15,076 Speaker 1: violent acts to oppose the violence of the state, as 653 00:35:15,116 --> 00:35:19,476 Speaker 1: you said, and that lesson for today, for you could 654 00:35:19,516 --> 00:35:21,316 Speaker 1: say for our kids, like what are you willing to 655 00:35:21,356 --> 00:35:24,196 Speaker 1: sacrifice in the face of injustice? And you know, here 656 00:35:24,196 --> 00:35:27,276 Speaker 1: we have racial apartheid in the country then and we 657 00:35:27,316 --> 00:35:29,956 Speaker 1: have a lot of it now. And I think of 658 00:35:30,116 --> 00:35:33,916 Speaker 1: also of your generation, like you you made this podcast, 659 00:35:34,316 --> 00:35:36,796 Speaker 1: and you know you told this deep history and you 660 00:35:36,916 --> 00:35:42,156 Speaker 1: explore like as you call them weather kids and panther cubs. Yeah, 661 00:35:42,516 --> 00:35:46,836 Speaker 1: the children of these radicals, like you guys, experienced that 662 00:35:46,996 --> 00:35:53,356 Speaker 1: sacrifice that your parents chose fighting over family. So what's 663 00:35:53,396 --> 00:35:56,596 Speaker 1: that lesson? I think, well, that's a big question. I 664 00:35:56,636 --> 00:35:58,716 Speaker 1: mean I spend a lot of time in the podcast thinking, 665 00:35:58,716 --> 00:36:01,116 Speaker 1: of course, I you know, I grew up on the run, 666 00:36:01,156 --> 00:36:03,156 Speaker 1: and then with my mom in jail, we adopted my 667 00:36:03,196 --> 00:36:06,436 Speaker 1: brother Chasa, whose parents did decades in prison. I also 668 00:36:06,476 --> 00:36:09,036 Speaker 1: talk on the show to Kakuya Shakur, the daughter of 669 00:36:09,156 --> 00:36:12,956 Speaker 1: Sada Shakur, who's still underground forty years later, fifty years later, 670 00:36:13,316 --> 00:36:17,836 Speaker 1: living on the run in Cuba for her day. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 671 00:36:17,836 --> 00:36:21,196 Speaker 1: Asada was the kind of figurehead and kind of leader 672 00:36:21,236 --> 00:36:23,876 Speaker 1: of the Black Liberation Army for a time and ended 673 00:36:23,956 --> 00:36:27,636 Speaker 1: up fleeing to Cuba after breaking out of prison. And 674 00:36:28,156 --> 00:36:30,756 Speaker 1: I talked to her daughter, Kakuya, who's it's been twenty 675 00:36:30,836 --> 00:36:33,836 Speaker 1: some years since she saw her mom. Asada has never 676 00:36:33,876 --> 00:36:37,156 Speaker 1: met her grandkids. So there are these real big sacrifices 677 00:36:37,196 --> 00:36:40,076 Speaker 1: that these families made. The people themselves who committed the 678 00:36:40,156 --> 00:36:43,996 Speaker 1: violent criminal acts, the radicals themselves, but also their children 679 00:36:43,996 --> 00:36:47,516 Speaker 1: and their grandchildren. So the kind of fallout from those 680 00:36:47,556 --> 00:36:51,276 Speaker 1: actions is real, and people really suffered. But you know, 681 00:36:51,836 --> 00:36:54,196 Speaker 1: one of my favorite moments in the podcast is I 682 00:36:54,836 --> 00:36:57,876 Speaker 1: sort of managed to secretly record a conversation between my 683 00:36:57,996 --> 00:37:01,516 Speaker 1: dad Bill and my daughter, who was thirteen at the time, 684 00:37:01,996 --> 00:37:03,676 Speaker 1: and as I was trying to figure out how to 685 00:37:03,756 --> 00:37:05,796 Speaker 1: end the podcast, I happened to be sitting at dinner 686 00:37:05,796 --> 00:37:07,996 Speaker 1: with them, and they just got into an argument about 687 00:37:08,036 --> 00:37:12,796 Speaker 1: John Brown were dinner, the radical abolitionist who who stormed 688 00:37:12,876 --> 00:37:16,036 Speaker 1: Harper's ferry in eighteen fifty nine, exactly. And John Brown 689 00:37:16,116 --> 00:37:18,356 Speaker 1: is a hero of my dad's as a symbol of 690 00:37:18,356 --> 00:37:20,716 Speaker 1: a kind of a white person willing to risk everything. 691 00:37:20,956 --> 00:37:23,716 Speaker 1: He's got a big ass tattoo of John Brown on 692 00:37:23,756 --> 00:37:25,996 Speaker 1: his back, right. Yeah. And yet, and yet, my thirteen 693 00:37:26,036 --> 00:37:28,596 Speaker 1: year old daughter had been studying John Brown in school, 694 00:37:28,836 --> 00:37:31,756 Speaker 1: and she came back home saying, he sounds crazy. I mean, 695 00:37:31,796 --> 00:37:35,036 Speaker 1: he took his sons into this suicidal raid and his 696 00:37:35,116 --> 00:37:38,796 Speaker 1: sons were killed for this political idea. She's a very 697 00:37:38,796 --> 00:37:41,356 Speaker 1: sophisticated kid for a thirteen year old. I mean, I 698 00:37:41,396 --> 00:37:44,156 Speaker 1: don't want to diminish his sacrifice, like that's amazing. And 699 00:37:44,196 --> 00:37:46,676 Speaker 1: he made a difference, but like, come on, I mean, 700 00:37:46,716 --> 00:37:50,156 Speaker 1: it's not really a rational thing to give up your 701 00:37:50,156 --> 00:37:53,476 Speaker 1: family and then yourself lamb to the slaughter hypo deal. 702 00:37:53,636 --> 00:37:55,756 Speaker 1: So she's saying this, and my dad's arguing with her, 703 00:37:55,756 --> 00:37:58,396 Speaker 1: and I, of course, as a good podcaster, should I 704 00:37:58,516 --> 00:38:00,356 Speaker 1: slid my iPhone into the middle of the table and 705 00:38:00,436 --> 00:38:03,996 Speaker 1: hit record. The point is when you say he was 706 00:38:04,036 --> 00:38:07,036 Speaker 1: a fanatic, he was and extremist. That's true, and it's 707 00:38:07,036 --> 00:38:10,516 Speaker 1: also true that the rational thing, which is just lets 708 00:38:10,516 --> 00:38:13,756 Speaker 1: slavery be. I mean, what are you gonna do? That's 709 00:38:13,836 --> 00:38:18,476 Speaker 1: crazy to me? It doesn't crazy. What do you mean? 710 00:38:18,716 --> 00:38:22,836 Speaker 1: I don't like it. It unsettles me to think about 711 00:38:24,076 --> 00:38:28,236 Speaker 1: you or Bill caring about a political issue more than 712 00:38:28,276 --> 00:38:30,556 Speaker 1: you care about me. I feel like it's like weird, 713 00:38:30,676 --> 00:38:35,116 Speaker 1: think about a father who cares more about like sticking 714 00:38:35,116 --> 00:38:38,156 Speaker 1: it to the match than his songs. It ended up 715 00:38:38,196 --> 00:38:41,076 Speaker 1: being kind of the sort of culminating moment of the 716 00:38:41,116 --> 00:38:44,396 Speaker 1: show because they really have this interesting argument about what 717 00:38:44,756 --> 00:38:47,916 Speaker 1: is it worth to sacrifice? And not all of us 718 00:38:47,996 --> 00:38:50,316 Speaker 1: are able or willing to make the kind of sacrifices 719 00:38:50,356 --> 00:38:54,836 Speaker 1: that John Brown or Asadah Shapour made or your parents, yeah, 720 00:38:55,036 --> 00:38:56,756 Speaker 1: or my parents. But I don't think any but any 721 00:38:56,796 --> 00:38:59,556 Speaker 1: of us would say the right moral thing is just 722 00:38:59,636 --> 00:39:02,076 Speaker 1: always to protect your own family and let the world burn. 723 00:39:02,276 --> 00:39:05,076 Speaker 1: So you have to find the line where you're willing 724 00:39:05,156 --> 00:39:08,276 Speaker 1: to sometimes put yourself and the things you love on 725 00:39:08,316 --> 00:39:10,396 Speaker 1: the line to make things better. Well, you know, and 726 00:39:10,476 --> 00:39:12,876 Speaker 1: listening to you answer that question, it hadn't occurred to 727 00:39:12,916 --> 00:39:15,876 Speaker 1: me listening to this moment that you just described in 728 00:39:15,916 --> 00:39:18,996 Speaker 1: the podcast itself. But here, all of a sudden, I'm like, look, 729 00:39:19,036 --> 00:39:22,116 Speaker 1: you've you've described the fact that your mom and dad, 730 00:39:22,196 --> 00:39:25,716 Speaker 1: Bill Ayres, did what they did because the monopoly of 731 00:39:25,796 --> 00:39:28,236 Speaker 1: violence by the state had could created the conditions of 732 00:39:28,236 --> 00:39:31,076 Speaker 1: suffering for all sorts of people, and most especially black 733 00:39:31,116 --> 00:39:33,356 Speaker 1: people in the United States, and that that was the 734 00:39:33,396 --> 00:39:36,196 Speaker 1: reason to do all of this. And yet as you 735 00:39:36,236 --> 00:39:38,676 Speaker 1: talk about like how you describe this to your daughter 736 00:39:38,836 --> 00:39:42,236 Speaker 1: and sacrifice in the trade offs between like self care 737 00:39:42,316 --> 00:39:44,876 Speaker 1: and being able to do something that won't risk your 738 00:39:44,876 --> 00:39:46,956 Speaker 1: life and your children are orfered and all this sort 739 00:39:46,956 --> 00:39:51,076 Speaker 1: of thing, I'm also like, white Americans proudly boast of 740 00:39:51,156 --> 00:39:55,716 Speaker 1: sacrificing their sons and daughters and military adventures all the time. 741 00:39:57,476 --> 00:40:00,836 Speaker 1: So this sort of routine notion of sacrifice in the 742 00:40:00,836 --> 00:40:03,476 Speaker 1: interests of the American state and the interest of patriotism 743 00:40:03,636 --> 00:40:06,436 Speaker 1: is unquestioned in this country. I mean, you can't board 744 00:40:06,476 --> 00:40:10,236 Speaker 1: a plane without giving it up to veterans for their sacrifices. Yeah, 745 00:40:10,476 --> 00:40:13,396 Speaker 1: every every sporting event, every yeah, yeah, I mean it's everywhere. 746 00:40:13,476 --> 00:40:16,996 Speaker 1: And so maybe it's just really about the socialization we've 747 00:40:17,036 --> 00:40:19,636 Speaker 1: all we've all come of age in. It's a notion 748 00:40:19,756 --> 00:40:22,476 Speaker 1: that this other kind of sacrifice, this other kind of 749 00:40:22,556 --> 00:40:25,716 Speaker 1: challenge to the state to change the state, is in 750 00:40:25,756 --> 00:40:28,596 Speaker 1: fact the one that we shouldn't do, because that's you know, 751 00:40:28,636 --> 00:40:30,916 Speaker 1: the costs are too great, and that's that's crazy. I 752 00:40:30,916 --> 00:40:32,996 Speaker 1: completely agree, and I'll add one thing, Khalil to that, 753 00:40:33,036 --> 00:40:36,436 Speaker 1: because I think you're exactly right that nobody really truly 754 00:40:36,516 --> 00:40:39,596 Speaker 1: believes that we shouldn't sacrifice or even that we should 755 00:40:39,636 --> 00:40:42,716 Speaker 1: never use violence. People believe that it is justified in 756 00:40:42,756 --> 00:40:45,916 Speaker 1: certain circumstances outside. The other thing people ask me about 757 00:40:45,956 --> 00:40:47,396 Speaker 1: all the time is they'll say, you know, if I'm 758 00:40:47,476 --> 00:40:50,276 Speaker 1: if I'm getting kind of hostile questions from a crowd 759 00:40:50,356 --> 00:40:53,236 Speaker 1: or from a journalist, the question often is something like, 760 00:40:53,916 --> 00:40:55,956 Speaker 1: you know, well, your parents did all this. They turned 761 00:40:55,956 --> 00:40:59,036 Speaker 1: to violence and it didn't work. And it's like, well, yeah, 762 00:40:59,116 --> 00:41:02,236 Speaker 1: I mean that's true, but like the people who did nothing, 763 00:41:02,356 --> 00:41:05,156 Speaker 1: they didn't end racism either, you know, and the idea 764 00:41:05,276 --> 00:41:09,596 Speaker 1: that that kind of this because an intractable problem problem, 765 00:41:09,636 --> 00:41:12,996 Speaker 1: you know, the original sin of this country still persists. 766 00:41:13,356 --> 00:41:15,556 Speaker 1: And people want to point at the activists and the 767 00:41:15,636 --> 00:41:19,196 Speaker 1: radicals and the peace movement and the anti racists and say, well, 768 00:41:19,236 --> 00:41:21,756 Speaker 1: you're not making enough progress. But those are the people 769 00:41:21,956 --> 00:41:24,756 Speaker 1: fighting for change, and it's the people doing nothing and 770 00:41:24,836 --> 00:41:28,236 Speaker 1: resisting that change who are actually standing in the way 771 00:41:28,236 --> 00:41:31,076 Speaker 1: of progress. You know. So everybody has to take a 772 00:41:31,076 --> 00:41:33,756 Speaker 1: long look, especially white people in America, take a long 773 00:41:33,836 --> 00:41:35,916 Speaker 1: look at what they're doing, what they're willing to do, 774 00:41:35,956 --> 00:41:38,636 Speaker 1: and what they're not doing, and take seriously the fact 775 00:41:38,676 --> 00:41:42,596 Speaker 1: that it's easy to throw stones from the sidelines, you know, Zaid. 776 00:41:42,636 --> 00:41:45,716 Speaker 1: I mean, I don't think your parents surprised you in 777 00:41:45,756 --> 00:41:48,436 Speaker 1: this podcast, Like they live out loud, as you said, 778 00:41:48,436 --> 00:41:50,996 Speaker 1: and they're sort of radically honest, you know what was 779 00:41:51,036 --> 00:41:53,276 Speaker 1: a surprise, and sort of digging into their story, into 780 00:41:53,276 --> 00:41:55,836 Speaker 1: their history, well, a couple of things really did surprise me. Actually. 781 00:41:55,836 --> 00:41:57,476 Speaker 1: I mean, it's true that they've always been honest, but 782 00:41:57,516 --> 00:42:01,516 Speaker 1: they've also always hidden things from me. I don't blame 783 00:42:01,556 --> 00:42:03,956 Speaker 1: them for it, because a lot of it was not 784 00:42:04,236 --> 00:42:07,436 Speaker 1: naming names and not talking about things that might implicate 785 00:42:07,476 --> 00:42:10,116 Speaker 1: other people, just being good to ask radicals like they 786 00:42:10,156 --> 00:42:13,716 Speaker 1: don't they don't talk. Yeah, yeah, my dad says often 787 00:42:13,756 --> 00:42:15,596 Speaker 1: in the podcast, I'll ask him a question and he says, well, 788 00:42:15,636 --> 00:42:17,436 Speaker 1: you know that action I can't talk about. That thing 789 00:42:17,476 --> 00:42:20,836 Speaker 1: I can't talk about. And it's often because it involves 790 00:42:20,836 --> 00:42:22,876 Speaker 1: somebody else. You know, when it's just him, he's pretty 791 00:42:22,916 --> 00:42:25,316 Speaker 1: willing to tell me things, but if it's an action 792 00:42:25,676 --> 00:42:27,596 Speaker 1: that other people were involved in, he doesn't want to 793 00:42:27,596 --> 00:42:30,796 Speaker 1: talk about it. And especially the actions that were collaborative 794 00:42:30,836 --> 00:42:34,076 Speaker 1: actions between the White Underground and the Black Underground. Nobody 795 00:42:34,116 --> 00:42:37,036 Speaker 1: really wants to be the one to say what was 796 00:42:37,076 --> 00:42:39,516 Speaker 1: happening because nobody wants to blow the whistle on the 797 00:42:39,556 --> 00:42:42,036 Speaker 1: other side. And there are people still in prison to 798 00:42:42,036 --> 00:42:45,116 Speaker 1: this day. But you know, one thing that really did 799 00:42:45,156 --> 00:42:47,636 Speaker 1: surprise me, and I found it I really had to 800 00:42:47,676 --> 00:42:51,156 Speaker 1: grapple with it was that, you know, my whole childhood, 801 00:42:51,316 --> 00:42:52,836 Speaker 1: one of the things they told me, one of the 802 00:42:52,916 --> 00:42:58,636 Speaker 1: kind of founding myths of my life, was that when 803 00:42:58,676 --> 00:43:02,796 Speaker 1: they had me, everything changed and they and they became parents, 804 00:43:02,796 --> 00:43:04,476 Speaker 1: and even though we were still underground, we were still 805 00:43:04,516 --> 00:43:07,516 Speaker 1: on the run from the FBI, they decided, you know, 806 00:43:07,556 --> 00:43:10,676 Speaker 1: we're no more violence and more things that could put 807 00:43:10,676 --> 00:43:12,276 Speaker 1: our lives at risk, because we have a kid now, 808 00:43:12,476 --> 00:43:14,036 Speaker 1: and you know, as a kid, you want to feel 809 00:43:14,076 --> 00:43:16,676 Speaker 1: like you're the center of the world and like your 810 00:43:16,716 --> 00:43:19,316 Speaker 1: parents would do anything for you. And so that was 811 00:43:19,316 --> 00:43:21,796 Speaker 1: always just something I accepted. And one of the things 812 00:43:21,876 --> 00:43:24,076 Speaker 1: as soon as I started digging into the timelines and 813 00:43:24,116 --> 00:43:27,196 Speaker 1: putting things together and making spreadsheets and you know, writing 814 00:43:27,236 --> 00:43:30,876 Speaker 1: down chronologies about like what was going on, when I 815 00:43:30,916 --> 00:43:34,076 Speaker 1: realized that that wasn't entirely true, and I started asking 816 00:43:34,116 --> 00:43:36,676 Speaker 1: my dad about what he was actually doing when I 817 00:43:36,716 --> 00:43:38,516 Speaker 1: was a little kid. And so one of the things 818 00:43:38,516 --> 00:43:40,956 Speaker 1: that really surprised me is that they kept up their 819 00:43:41,156 --> 00:43:45,036 Speaker 1: kind of violent revolutionary actions even as parents. Not quite 820 00:43:45,036 --> 00:43:46,516 Speaker 1: to the same extent, but there were a couple of 821 00:43:46,596 --> 00:43:49,396 Speaker 1: very risky things that happened when I was a toddler, 822 00:43:50,116 --> 00:43:53,476 Speaker 1: and you know, actions in solidarity with the Black Liberation Army. 823 00:43:53,796 --> 00:43:55,316 Speaker 1: And how'd you make sense of that? Like, how did 824 00:43:55,356 --> 00:43:57,156 Speaker 1: you feel? I mean, I we had a lot of 825 00:43:57,156 --> 00:43:59,356 Speaker 1: conversations about it, and I had to kind of think 826 00:43:59,396 --> 00:44:02,076 Speaker 1: about what to make of that, what it meant for 827 00:44:02,196 --> 00:44:04,756 Speaker 1: my own self conception or my conception of my parents 828 00:44:04,756 --> 00:44:08,436 Speaker 1: as people who prioritize their kids. Well, you know, but 829 00:44:08,476 --> 00:44:11,236 Speaker 1: what I ultimately make of it is that, like you said, 830 00:44:11,236 --> 00:44:13,236 Speaker 1: I mean, it surprises me, but it doesn't surprise me. 831 00:44:13,276 --> 00:44:16,476 Speaker 1: I mean, it surprises me that these specific things happened. 832 00:44:16,556 --> 00:44:18,556 Speaker 1: But when I really think about my parents, I always 833 00:44:18,636 --> 00:44:21,956 Speaker 1: knew that if they were called upon by you know, 834 00:44:22,356 --> 00:44:26,076 Speaker 1: comrades in the black underground to help with something, there 835 00:44:26,116 --> 00:44:27,516 Speaker 1: were very few things that we're going to stand in 836 00:44:27,556 --> 00:44:29,156 Speaker 1: the way of them trying to say yes to that, 837 00:44:29,276 --> 00:44:33,116 Speaker 1: even having a kid at home. So even today, even today, 838 00:44:33,276 --> 00:44:37,236 Speaker 1: I mean, they're they're pretty committed people, and it's complicated. 839 00:44:37,436 --> 00:44:40,276 Speaker 1: It makes my relationship with them complicated, But I also 840 00:44:40,356 --> 00:44:44,036 Speaker 1: feel like I admire and respect the fact that for them, 841 00:44:44,676 --> 00:44:47,476 Speaker 1: that fight and that struggle and that solidarity is as 842 00:44:47,476 --> 00:44:50,956 Speaker 1: important as anything else in their lives. Was it. I 843 00:44:51,036 --> 00:44:55,716 Speaker 1: want to just finish this conversation by saying that everyone 844 00:44:55,756 --> 00:45:00,116 Speaker 1: should listen to your podcast. Everyone should know this history. 845 00:45:00,116 --> 00:45:01,716 Speaker 1: This is a history that even when I was in 846 00:45:01,756 --> 00:45:06,756 Speaker 1: grad school, more than twenty years ago was treated as 847 00:45:06,796 --> 00:45:11,276 Speaker 1: as a failure in social movement history by mainstream historians. 848 00:45:11,276 --> 00:45:15,516 Speaker 1: It's a moment when social movements went off track, and 849 00:45:15,556 --> 00:45:18,476 Speaker 1: as you well know, neo conservatism of the nineteen eighties, 850 00:45:18,916 --> 00:45:22,396 Speaker 1: both in politics and even in scholarship, grew out of 851 00:45:22,436 --> 00:45:26,276 Speaker 1: the reactionary understanding of this moment. So you're helping to 852 00:45:26,276 --> 00:45:29,796 Speaker 1: write the historical record and bringing it in such a 853 00:45:29,836 --> 00:45:34,116 Speaker 1: wonderful storytelling way that new generations of young people will 854 00:45:34,156 --> 00:45:37,236 Speaker 1: have a chance to learn from this past and continue 855 00:45:37,356 --> 00:45:39,876 Speaker 1: the struggle. So thank you so much Zai for joining 856 00:45:39,996 --> 00:45:43,036 Speaker 1: us today. Than I really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Zaide. 857 00:45:43,076 --> 00:45:46,196 Speaker 1: It's really been amazing talking with you. Thanks Ben, great 858 00:45:46,236 --> 00:45:55,356 Speaker 1: being here. Oh Man, that was such a good conversation. 859 00:45:55,596 --> 00:45:58,996 Speaker 1: It was it was. Yeah. It has me thinking about 860 00:45:59,036 --> 00:46:02,876 Speaker 1: this moment in the summer of twenty twenty when white 861 00:46:02,916 --> 00:46:07,636 Speaker 1: activists in Portland were taking siege of a federal building 862 00:46:08,116 --> 00:46:13,556 Speaker 1: and Donald Trump was sending undercover people in black vans 863 00:46:13,596 --> 00:46:17,196 Speaker 1: and snatching people off the street, or even the Lafayatte 864 00:46:17,316 --> 00:46:20,716 Speaker 1: Square moment when part of the park outside of the 865 00:46:20,716 --> 00:46:24,676 Speaker 1: White House was on fire and then generals were standing 866 00:46:24,996 --> 00:46:27,276 Speaker 1: with Tromp and a photo op. So we're talking about 867 00:46:27,276 --> 00:46:30,716 Speaker 1: the moment after George Floyd's murder and these protests across 868 00:46:30,716 --> 00:46:34,036 Speaker 1: the country, and you're talking about the police response, the 869 00:46:34,156 --> 00:46:37,756 Speaker 1: state response to kind of squash this. Yeah, but I'm 870 00:46:37,756 --> 00:46:40,276 Speaker 1: really talking about both. I mean, people were in the 871 00:46:40,356 --> 00:46:43,996 Speaker 1: streets and in some cases there were buildings on fire, 872 00:46:44,036 --> 00:46:46,956 Speaker 1: a whole police station burned up in Minneapolis. I mean, 873 00:46:47,356 --> 00:46:51,476 Speaker 1: it looked exactly like what the grainy footage of the 874 00:46:51,516 --> 00:46:55,996 Speaker 1: sixties was what I grew up seeing, what I read about. 875 00:46:56,556 --> 00:47:00,156 Speaker 1: And the thing that's really fascinating, I mean, because that's 876 00:47:00,156 --> 00:47:03,956 Speaker 1: something everyone listening to this show right now witnessed, is 877 00:47:03,996 --> 00:47:08,476 Speaker 1: that so many people were asked the question, and I 878 00:47:08,516 --> 00:47:11,796 Speaker 1: will say it happened for me too, which is like, 879 00:47:11,996 --> 00:47:14,436 Speaker 1: is this a moment for change in America? Is this 880 00:47:14,516 --> 00:47:16,556 Speaker 1: the moment of the racial reckoning? Is this the moment 881 00:47:16,636 --> 00:47:19,036 Speaker 1: where we finally get this right? Journalists we're asking this question, 882 00:47:19,076 --> 00:47:21,436 Speaker 1: people were writing about it. I was participating, you were 883 00:47:21,756 --> 00:47:25,516 Speaker 1: in this moment. And the thing that I said, and 884 00:47:25,556 --> 00:47:29,236 Speaker 1: I remember others saying as well, including elected officials, as 885 00:47:29,316 --> 00:47:32,276 Speaker 1: long as people stay in the streets, we will see 886 00:47:32,356 --> 00:47:35,036 Speaker 1: change in this country. Only one is demanded is what 887 00:47:35,036 --> 00:47:37,916 Speaker 1: you're saying. Only one is demanded, and only when there 888 00:47:38,156 --> 00:47:42,556 Speaker 1: is a civil disobedience at a scale when you can't 889 00:47:42,796 --> 00:47:46,276 Speaker 1: have business as usual. Yeah. Yeah, and it turned out 890 00:47:46,316 --> 00:47:48,076 Speaker 1: to be right. I mean, we have the benefit of 891 00:47:48,156 --> 00:47:51,156 Speaker 1: hindsight in this moment to look back now two years 892 00:47:51,276 --> 00:47:54,636 Speaker 1: later and all these questions about whether this was a 893 00:47:54,796 --> 00:47:58,316 Speaker 1: quote unquote moment or movement have been answered. It was 894 00:47:58,356 --> 00:48:01,956 Speaker 1: a fucking moment, right, I mean, because once people are 895 00:48:01,996 --> 00:48:04,956 Speaker 1: off the streets, and once the demand is gone, the 896 00:48:05,316 --> 00:48:07,876 Speaker 1: action has gone, the change has gone. The change is gone. Yeah. 897 00:48:07,916 --> 00:48:11,396 Speaker 1: And yeah, there's this line from a Flannery O'Connor store 898 00:48:11,436 --> 00:48:13,796 Speaker 1: that I often think about. She would have been a 899 00:48:13,836 --> 00:48:16,036 Speaker 1: good woman if there was somebody there to shoot her 900 00:48:16,076 --> 00:48:20,196 Speaker 1: every day of her life. Oh shit, you know, without that, 901 00:48:20,516 --> 00:48:23,596 Speaker 1: you ain't the good woman. But only in that moment. 902 00:48:24,196 --> 00:48:26,316 Speaker 1: I mentioned this while we were talking with Zaide, But 903 00:48:26,396 --> 00:48:30,236 Speaker 1: there's that moment when his mother, Bernadine Dorn, you know, 904 00:48:30,396 --> 00:48:35,396 Speaker 1: chooses radicalism and she she forms the action faction. That 905 00:48:35,476 --> 00:48:37,476 Speaker 1: phrase has just stuck with me. What you're saying, like, 906 00:48:37,996 --> 00:48:41,396 Speaker 1: we need action factions, right, yeah, But then also all 907 00:48:41,436 --> 00:48:43,596 Speaker 1: the things that that means, because what does it mean 908 00:48:43,636 --> 00:48:46,876 Speaker 1: to ask people to stay on the streets indefinitely. Yeah, 909 00:48:46,996 --> 00:48:49,076 Speaker 1: I mean what does that demand on people in terms 910 00:48:49,076 --> 00:48:51,996 Speaker 1: of their lives, in terms of you know, society functioning, 911 00:48:52,356 --> 00:48:54,876 Speaker 1: And you know, it's like we need the change, but 912 00:48:54,956 --> 00:48:58,276 Speaker 1: also the demand on activists, I'm as on all of 913 00:48:58,356 --> 00:49:01,236 Speaker 1: us on society, it is an incredible amount. And that's 914 00:49:01,316 --> 00:49:03,396 Speaker 1: kind of what we were digging into today. And you know, 915 00:49:03,476 --> 00:49:06,916 Speaker 1: Zaid is so in a way unlike his parents, and 916 00:49:06,996 --> 00:49:09,076 Speaker 1: he says this on the podcast that that he created, 917 00:49:09,316 --> 00:49:12,796 Speaker 1: that they believe in moral absolutes and they think with 918 00:49:12,836 --> 00:49:16,516 Speaker 1: a kind of moral clarity. And he's this playwright, this 919 00:49:16,636 --> 00:49:21,276 Speaker 1: writer who explores the ambiguities, who explores the complexities and 920 00:49:21,556 --> 00:49:24,276 Speaker 1: in a way that's not action faction, but it's a 921 00:49:24,316 --> 00:49:27,676 Speaker 1: way why this podcast and exploring these ideas is so fascinating. Yeah, 922 00:49:27,956 --> 00:49:32,916 Speaker 1: And to show the context and the what's at stake here. Yeah, Well, 923 00:49:33,156 --> 00:49:35,796 Speaker 1: I think one takeaway, at least for me, is that 924 00:49:36,596 --> 00:49:40,556 Speaker 1: what the sixties presented as a choice in the way 925 00:49:40,556 --> 00:49:44,076 Speaker 1: that Bernadine and Bill made it, which is to say, 926 00:49:44,356 --> 00:49:46,716 Speaker 1: you know, even if you have to make a personal sacrifice, 927 00:49:47,276 --> 00:49:50,796 Speaker 1: that's the only way things change. And yeah, we are 928 00:49:50,996 --> 00:49:53,236 Speaker 1: at that moment again. And we don't know what's around 929 00:49:53,276 --> 00:49:56,276 Speaker 1: the corner in twenty twenty three, but I think we 930 00:49:56,396 --> 00:49:59,996 Speaker 1: do know that bodies in the street and sacrifices are 931 00:50:00,036 --> 00:50:03,996 Speaker 1: a crucial ingredient to social movement change. And you know, 932 00:50:04,076 --> 00:50:07,236 Speaker 1: let's hope that we can be part of encouraging people 933 00:50:07,236 --> 00:50:10,156 Speaker 1: and inspiring people to do that work. Yeah. Yeah, that's 934 00:50:10,196 --> 00:50:12,836 Speaker 1: really well put. And I think I think this podcast 935 00:50:12,596 --> 00:50:14,836 Speaker 1: that you know that we're doing, but also that zay 936 00:50:14,956 --> 00:50:17,476 Speaker 1: did is exactly doing that. Yeah, yeah, all right, all 937 00:50:17,556 --> 00:50:20,916 Speaker 1: right man, Well, Khalil, love you, Love you too, man. 938 00:50:25,796 --> 00:50:28,156 Speaker 1: Some of My Best Friends Are is a production of 939 00:50:28,236 --> 00:50:31,596 Speaker 1: Pushkin Industries. The show is written and hosted by me, 940 00:50:31,796 --> 00:50:35,316 Speaker 1: Khalil Dubron Muhammed and my best friend Ben Austin. It's 941 00:50:35,316 --> 00:50:39,436 Speaker 1: produced by John Assanti and Lucy Sullivan. Our editor is 942 00:50:39,516 --> 00:50:43,316 Speaker 1: Jasmine Morris, our engineer is Amanda ka Wang, and our 943 00:50:43,356 --> 00:50:47,716 Speaker 1: executive producer is Mia Lobelle. At Pushkin thanks to leitaal Mullad, 944 00:50:48,116 --> 00:50:53,596 Speaker 1: Julia Barton, Heather Fain, Carly Migliori, John Schnars, Gretta Khane, 945 00:50:53,916 --> 00:50:57,676 Speaker 1: and Jacob Weisberg. Our theme song, Little Lily, is by 946 00:50:57,716 --> 00:51:02,116 Speaker 1: Fellow chicagoan the brilliant Avery R. Young from his album Pubman. 947 00:51:02,556 --> 00:51:04,476 Speaker 1: You definitely want to check out his music at his 948 00:51:04,516 --> 00:51:08,036 Speaker 1: website avery R. Young dot com. You can find Pushkin 949 00:51:08,156 --> 00:51:11,716 Speaker 1: on all social platforms at Pushkin Pods, and you can 950 00:51:11,756 --> 00:51:14,836 Speaker 1: sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm. To 951 00:51:14,916 --> 00:51:20,116 Speaker 1: find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 952 00:51:20,356 --> 00:51:22,276 Speaker 1: or wherever you like to listen. And if you like 953 00:51:22,396 --> 00:51:25,276 Speaker 1: our show, please give us a five star rating and 954 00:51:25,316 --> 00:51:27,276 Speaker 1: a review and listen even if you don't like to 955 00:51:27,356 --> 00:51:29,476 Speaker 1: give it a five star rating and a review, and 956 00:51:29,636 --> 00:51:32,876 Speaker 1: please tell all of your best friends about it. Thank you. 957 00:51:45,756 --> 00:51:47,636 Speaker 1: I mean, I love your Guys podcast. I feel like 958 00:51:47,636 --> 00:51:49,636 Speaker 1: it's one of those honors to be on it. I've 959 00:51:49,676 --> 00:51:51,556 Speaker 1: been listening and that's gonna be weird to be like 960 00:51:51,636 --> 00:51:55,236 Speaker 1: the guests. You know. Yeah, we'll wait till you hear 961 00:51:55,276 --> 00:51:57,236 Speaker 1: how we chop it up. It's gonna be even better. 962 00:51:57,556 --> 00:52:02,036 Speaker 1: You're not actually gonna be yea, they just back and further, 963 00:52:02,316 --> 00:52:04,116 Speaker 1: it's just an episode about Benea