1 00:00:02,720 --> 00:00:07,200 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. 2 00:00:10,240 --> 00:00:13,800 Speaker 2: This is Everybody's Business from Bloomberg BusinessWeek. I'm Stacey Mannox Smith. 3 00:00:13,960 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 3: I'm Max Chafkin. 4 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,200 Speaker 4: Hey Stacy, Hello Max, Welcome back. 5 00:00:17,560 --> 00:00:21,000 Speaker 3: I was on vacation in Las Vegas and I was reporting. 6 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:23,320 Speaker 3: I really enjoyed the episode that you and Brad Stone did, 7 00:00:23,320 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 3: although I did have a note for you. 8 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 4: Oh you had a note what we missed you. Brad 9 00:00:27,360 --> 00:00:29,160 Speaker 4: was such a great sport. We loved having him on. 10 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 4: But I'm excited to hear your notes. 11 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 3: We'll get to that at the very end. Okay, But 12 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,600 Speaker 3: this week, as I understand it, we are talking about men. 13 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:40,879 Speaker 2: Yes, there's been a lot of male energy in the 14 00:00:40,920 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 2: news this week, and in fact, Bloomberg's issue this week 15 00:00:44,200 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 2: is all about the man of. 16 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 3: Sphere, the manusphere. We had men all over the places. 17 00:00:57,120 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 4: So many men make me this week. 18 00:00:59,520 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 2: Yes, you add President Donald Trump saying that Federal Reserve 19 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:06,560 Speaker 2: Chair Jerome Powell should be fired. This sent the markets 20 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,440 Speaker 2: into a lot of dramatics. Trump since backed off and 21 00:01:10,560 --> 00:01:11,600 Speaker 2: the markets have recovered. 22 00:01:11,880 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 3: Defense Secretary Pete Hegseith doing another signal thing believe group chat, 23 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,919 Speaker 3: adding his wife to the group chat which is always fun. 24 00:01:21,160 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 2: Meanwhile, your man Elon Musk making waves this week, Wow. 25 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:30,319 Speaker 3: Elon Musk telling Tesla investors on an earnings call that 26 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 3: he is stepping away from Doge. We'll look at what 27 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 3: doge has done and what its future is, and then 28 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:41,759 Speaker 3: we're going to talk about the podcast Ecosystem the Manisphere 29 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 3: that maybe changed the course of the twenty twenty four 30 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:50,080 Speaker 3: election and perhaps history itself, with Sarah Fryar, BusinessWeek contributor 31 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:52,200 Speaker 3: and Bloomberg senior editor. 32 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:55,080 Speaker 2: And we will also talk about our underrated segment of 33 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,280 Speaker 2: the week. It turns out, Max, the cheaters do win, 34 00:01:59,120 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 2: and they win five point three million dollars in seed money. 35 00:02:04,040 --> 00:02:06,600 Speaker 3: I don't know what to say. 36 00:02:06,720 --> 00:02:12,800 Speaker 2: Things are strange here in the dawn of the Man economy. 37 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 2: So Max, we may be in the middle of the 38 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 2: man economy, but here at Everybody's Business, we are an 39 00:02:19,720 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 2: inclusive group. 40 00:02:21,639 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 4: We want to hear from everybody. This is part of 41 00:02:24,600 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 4: the show. 42 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 2: We like to have the questions and thoughts of you know, 43 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:28,760 Speaker 2: people from all over the place. 44 00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:32,359 Speaker 4: And this got me thinking about where I should go 45 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:33,440 Speaker 4: to talk with people. 46 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,920 Speaker 2: And I was like, where in New York is the 47 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 2: epitome of economic Like manliness. 48 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:41,280 Speaker 3: Where is it? 49 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:42,600 Speaker 4: They started thinking. 50 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 2: Like Wall Street, Power Brokers, Bravado, and then it hit me, 51 00:02:47,560 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 2: the bull, the what. 52 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:49,839 Speaker 3: Is the bull? 53 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 4: The Wall Street Bull? You know that's the big statue 54 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 4: of the bull. 55 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 3: Yeah. 56 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:56,720 Speaker 2: So I went to the bull and you know, there's 57 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 2: like one hundred people waiting in line to post for. 58 00:02:59,080 --> 00:02:59,919 Speaker 4: A photo with the ball. 59 00:03:00,240 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, but they are not posing for a photo with 60 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 2: the front of the ball. 61 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:05,799 Speaker 3: Do you know this is like this the balls is 62 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:06,360 Speaker 3: what you're telling? 63 00:03:06,440 --> 00:03:08,680 Speaker 4: Are all posing? It's apparently very good luck? 64 00:03:09,080 --> 00:03:10,000 Speaker 3: Do they touch this? 65 00:03:10,880 --> 00:03:11,000 Speaker 5: Oh? 66 00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 3: Okay? Wow? Okay? So are they kind of you know, 67 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:19,400 Speaker 3: in a bronze statue it gets kind of poyes wow okay. Yeah. 68 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:21,799 Speaker 2: So I was like talking to people in line and 69 00:03:21,960 --> 00:03:26,360 Speaker 2: I asked them, like, you know, in this moment, this 70 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 2: manospheric moment, who do you think embodies masculinity? Like who 71 00:03:31,919 --> 00:03:35,360 Speaker 2: would be the ideal masculine figure for this moment. Here's 72 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 2: what the people waiting in line at the ball said. 73 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 3: I actually admire John and Robert Downey. 74 00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:45,559 Speaker 4: What are the qualities about them that you like? Confidence 75 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 4: has humor for both of them. 76 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 3: I love sports, So, you know, Kobe Bryant was a 77 00:03:51,200 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 3: very very intense athlete, but when he retired, he really 78 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 3: wanted to make the world a better place. And that's 79 00:03:58,080 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 3: really Number one. 80 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 4: Do you have a like an ideal man? 81 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 2: You think, Oh, who would you think would be the 82 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:09,720 Speaker 2: ideal masculine person right now? 83 00:04:09,960 --> 00:04:15,400 Speaker 3: Donald Trump? Donald Trump? Yeah, it's popular for me, it's 84 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 3: very good. 85 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 4: It's been who's the man that you admire? I don't 86 00:04:19,920 --> 00:04:24,280 Speaker 4: think there is one. I don't think there is. I'm next, No, 87 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:26,360 Speaker 4: I don't think there is. I don't think any of 88 00:04:26,400 --> 00:04:29,360 Speaker 4: the top good businessmen of good role models. I don't 89 00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:31,919 Speaker 4: like Jeff bezel SE's a mask, none of them. They 90 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 4: love Mary Curriy, somebody who's doing good. They're looking for 91 00:04:35,960 --> 00:04:38,960 Speaker 4: qs for stuff like that. So, wait, is your ideal 92 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 4: man Marie Curry. 93 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:42,159 Speaker 3: And she's a woman? 94 00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 4: John does pretty much. 95 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 6: No, it doesn't really, Mutch. 96 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,440 Speaker 3: I know that was a journey. First of all, it 97 00:04:49,520 --> 00:04:52,680 Speaker 3: sounded like several of those people have been credibly accused 98 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:54,200 Speaker 3: of I know. 99 00:04:55,400 --> 00:04:59,919 Speaker 4: I know people had so much trouble coming up with someone. 100 00:05:00,240 --> 00:05:00,560 Speaker 4: I don't know. 101 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:02,920 Speaker 3: Does this leave you thinking that we are in a 102 00:05:03,120 --> 00:05:04,400 Speaker 3: crisis of masculinity? 103 00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:08,360 Speaker 2: You know, it kind of did a little because like 104 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:10,360 Speaker 2: if someone asked me, like, who are the women you 105 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,039 Speaker 2: look up to? I would not really have trouble naming 106 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 2: people who I admire in different fields. 107 00:05:16,120 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 3: I try to think quickly, like who is the man 108 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,160 Speaker 3: I most admire? And I'm not saying this is the 109 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,880 Speaker 3: man I most admire, But I was thinking of the 110 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,400 Speaker 3: Giant guy and Reacher the Amazon show. 111 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 4: Okay, I have not seen Reacher. 112 00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 3: The whole premise of the show is basically, he is large. 113 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:34,800 Speaker 3: He is like very smart and sensitive, but he solves 114 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 3: crimes and he can kick ass. So that's what I 115 00:05:36,880 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 3: came up with. Okay, I should have said my dad, 116 00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 3: though that is the correct answer. 117 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:42,640 Speaker 4: The correct answer is always your dad. 118 00:05:42,839 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 3: Yes. Indeed, if I haven't gotten to the episodes where 119 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:47,080 Speaker 3: Reacher turns bad, like, I'm sorry. 120 00:05:46,880 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 2: Everybody, that's a mid season error. So Max, we've got 121 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 2: to talk about Elon Musk. You have spent a lot 122 00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 2: of time looking at Elon muss You know a lot 123 00:06:04,279 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 2: about this man, and it was a big week for him. 124 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,040 Speaker 4: Talk to us a little bit about like this Muskian 125 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 4: moment we're in. 126 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 3: It's been crazy just because Elon Musk, who you kind 127 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:16,600 Speaker 3: of hinted at this, But I've basically been reporting on 128 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 3: him for you know, close to twenty years, and who 129 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:22,760 Speaker 3: he is, like his model of a man, if you will, 130 00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,840 Speaker 3: has completely shifted. I mean, he went from being kind 131 00:06:25,880 --> 00:06:30,360 Speaker 3: of universally admired business guy, oh the person probably if 132 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 3: you had gone to the bull polishers downtown, some of 133 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 3: them would have mentioned him as my guest and obviously. 134 00:06:37,960 --> 00:06:42,039 Speaker 2: Rooted electric vehicles like space travel innovator timely. 135 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 3: I'm almost a little surprised no one did, but maybe 136 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 3: it's telling and what has happened amid this his sort 137 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:53,120 Speaker 3: of political turn is in addition to kind of polarizing 138 00:06:53,200 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 3: his persona and tying himself to Donald Trump in the 139 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:58,279 Speaker 3: way he did, he has been acting in this way 140 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 3: at the White House that has made him more and 141 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:05,040 Speaker 3: more unpopular. Like he traded in his brand as like 142 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 3: the guy who has a lot of kids and who 143 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 3: like cares about the environment and likes to drive fast cars. 144 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 3: And now he's like play acting as a management consultant, 145 00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 3: going around terrorizing federal workers and acting like it's so 146 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 3: awesome that he's like cutting the budget. That is a 147 00:07:20,520 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 3: weird vision of masculinity, the man as consultant and what 148 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 3: we've seen in the public polling is that he's gotten 149 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 3: a lot less popular. And we've also seen this in 150 00:07:29,680 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 3: the results of his car company, Tesla Motors. 151 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:34,320 Speaker 4: Yes, Tesla has not had a good couple of months. 152 00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 3: No, they just reported earnings. This was on Tuesday, possibly 153 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:39,200 Speaker 3: the worst quarter they've ever had. 154 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 4: It was very bad. 155 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 3: This was a growing company. It is now a shrinking company. 156 00:07:43,000 --> 00:07:46,520 Speaker 3: The profits are down. They missed expectations by a huge amount. 157 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,000 Speaker 3: And Elon Musk, in an attempt to try to make 158 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 3: investors happy, say something that would you know, maybe cause 159 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,000 Speaker 3: a stock to go up. Said, I'm going to spend 160 00:07:57,000 --> 00:07:59,640 Speaker 3: a little less time with my boy Donald Trump, and. 161 00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 7: I think starting probably an next month, may my time 162 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 7: allocation to DOGE will drop significantly. 163 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, of course, like the Department of Government Efficiency, 164 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 2: DOGE was kind of Trump's brainchild, but Elon Musk kind 165 00:08:19,720 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 2: of took the helm. And I have to say, from 166 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:23,920 Speaker 2: my perspective, when I was watching this all happen, it 167 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,160 Speaker 2: just looked like chaos. Like you know, Elon Musk came in, 168 00:08:27,280 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 2: he didn't know what he was doing. He hired all 169 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 2: these kids who didn't know what they were doing, and 170 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 2: it was just like this hack job. 171 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:33,320 Speaker 4: But in your article this week. 172 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:36,600 Speaker 2: It was so interesting because it kind of looks at 173 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 2: it through this lens of like it was not actually chaos. 174 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:41,959 Speaker 2: There's something underlying it and a person So talk to 175 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:43,679 Speaker 2: us a little bit about kind of what was under 176 00:08:43,720 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 2: the chaos. 177 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 3: So the article that I wrote is about this guy, 178 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 3: Russell Vote. Now, most people haven't heard of Russell Vote. 179 00:08:49,360 --> 00:08:52,120 Speaker 3: He is like a behind the scenes player, but he 180 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 3: plays a role within the Trump administration that's not that 181 00:08:55,080 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 3: different from somebody like Stephen Miller. He is like a 182 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 3: behind the scenes ideologue. But what makes Russell Vote interesting 183 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:07,600 Speaker 3: is that he created this plan essentially partly in Project 184 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:11,839 Speaker 3: twenty twenty five, the nine hundred page policy book that 185 00:09:12,000 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 3: he co authored, and partly over the last three four years. 186 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 3: He runs this right wing organization, the Center for Renewing America, 187 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,920 Speaker 3: but he helped create this kind of vision of trumpsm 188 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 3: that is now basically the trump Ism that we are 189 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 3: seeing today. Vote is interested in kind of two core 190 00:09:30,400 --> 00:09:34,600 Speaker 3: things which are relevant to the Doge conversation. One is budgets. 191 00:09:34,679 --> 00:09:36,720 Speaker 3: He really wants to cut the budget. And the other, 192 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:42,480 Speaker 3: and probably the more important thing, is basically drastically reducing 193 00:09:42,520 --> 00:09:45,960 Speaker 3: the power of the federal workforce, not just eliminating federal workers, 194 00:09:46,280 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 3: but like totally reshaping the relationship between the civil service 195 00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 3: and the president. 196 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,720 Speaker 2: So is the chaos that seemed to be manifesting through 197 00:09:56,800 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 2: Doge did that chaos enable this plan to go forward? 198 00:10:01,320 --> 00:10:02,800 Speaker 4: Or is it actually not chaos? 199 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 3: It is chaos. You know, we've seen Musk do things 200 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:08,959 Speaker 3: that seem very aggressive and are very unpopular. You know, 201 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,719 Speaker 3: when they shut down USAID. USAID did a lot of 202 00:10:12,800 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 3: wonderful things. Oh, you're in this program, pep far it 203 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 3: was seen as like the one of the greatest, maybe 204 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:22,439 Speaker 3: the greatest public health program in history, significantly arrested the 205 00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 3: AIDS pandemic by giving out free or low cost medication. 206 00:10:27,000 --> 00:10:29,400 Speaker 3: And Musco's on Twitter and says, we put it in 207 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,559 Speaker 3: the woodshipper, you know, hahaha. Isn't it that we're destroying 208 00:10:32,600 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 3: these people? And if you look at Vote Vote In 209 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 3: addition to saying we need to kill all these programs, 210 00:10:39,600 --> 00:10:42,000 Speaker 3: the president should be able to just fire people willy nilly. 211 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 3: Also with saying things like we need to traumatize the 212 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 3: federal work first, we need to make them feel boud right, 213 00:10:47,920 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 3: and then so I think Elon Musk is his own person. 214 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:53,200 Speaker 3: Donald Trump is his own person. It's not like any 215 00:10:53,240 --> 00:10:57,240 Speaker 3: behind the scenes player is controlling them necessarily. But if 216 00:10:57,280 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 3: you're like why were people around Trump tolerating this? Like 217 00:11:01,400 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 3: why did this happen? I think one reason is there 218 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:06,319 Speaker 3: was a plan to some extent to do this. 219 00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 2: Why because that was such a notable thing about dose two, 220 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 2: Like you said that the tone of the layoffs is 221 00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:17,959 Speaker 2: like pretty brutal and not respectful of the work that 222 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 2: these civil servants have put in. 223 00:11:20,000 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 4: Why is that part of the plan, Like what end 224 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 4: does that achieve? 225 00:11:23,559 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 3: Well, if you look at what vote and I guess 226 00:11:27,960 --> 00:11:30,480 Speaker 3: other people around Trump have said and are saying, is 227 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 3: you know they came away from the last Trump presidency 228 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 3: feeling like Trump had been ineffective and the reason he 229 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 3: had been ineffective was because you had this federal bureaucracy 230 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 3: that was stymying him at every turn. Now I think 231 00:11:44,440 --> 00:11:48,760 Speaker 3: there are good reasons to question that take on purpose. Yeah, yeah, 232 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 3: Like basically he would have gotten re elected, He would 233 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:56,199 Speaker 3: have been far more effective if you didn't have people 234 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 3: in the fbich state people the quote unquote deep state 235 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 3: and vote is interesting because he was like really very 236 00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 3: much a part of some of these stories. So Vote 237 00:12:05,760 --> 00:12:08,319 Speaker 3: ran the Office of Management and Budget the last time, 238 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:10,320 Speaker 3: and he's running the Office of Management and Budget this time. 239 00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 3: He's one of the only people in Trump world who 240 00:12:12,920 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 3: essentially has the same job that he had before. Office 241 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,000 Speaker 3: of Management and Budget is the part of the government 242 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 3: that essentially funds the rest of the executive branch. So 243 00:12:23,360 --> 00:12:26,600 Speaker 3: Congress says, Okay, we're going to give you eight hundred 244 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:31,079 Speaker 3: million dollars to start a federal agency. OMB like basically 245 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 3: parcels that money out and Vote's big idea, one of 246 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:37,679 Speaker 3: his big ideas, is you could just use OMB to 247 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 3: kind of stop that or slow it down or something. 248 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 3: But during the last Trump presidency, Trump asked OMB to 249 00:12:45,320 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 3: cut this aid to Ukraine. Vote did it, and in 250 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:50,920 Speaker 3: his telling, there were all these bureaucrats who were like 251 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:52,800 Speaker 3: really mad at him, and it was this kind of 252 00:12:52,880 --> 00:12:55,640 Speaker 3: like radicalizing thing. Of course, cutting that money is what 253 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,800 Speaker 3: led to Trump's impeachment, and so in their view, what 254 00:12:58,920 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 3: went wrong was not the insistence on this kind of 255 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 3: using this aid to send a message to Zelenski or something. 256 00:13:06,480 --> 00:13:08,839 Speaker 3: It was the fact that people tried to stop it, 257 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,199 Speaker 3: and so so much about what's happening now is this 258 00:13:12,320 --> 00:13:14,680 Speaker 3: effort to ensure that that doesn't happen again. 259 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:18,400 Speaker 4: What is the vision that vote has for like what 260 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:20,040 Speaker 4: the federal government looks like. 261 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 3: The vision is he calls it and the people who 262 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,040 Speaker 3: have this who share this view, it's it's the unitary 263 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:29,200 Speaker 3: executive You may have heard that phrase, but the idea 264 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 3: is essentially that the executive branch is just. 265 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:34,480 Speaker 2: The president all the other fund I mean, the president 266 00:13:34,520 --> 00:13:36,200 Speaker 2: can't be sending out Social Security checks. 267 00:13:36,240 --> 00:13:38,520 Speaker 3: And the point is, like, as we've set up the 268 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 3: federal government, you have the president and then you have 269 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:44,079 Speaker 3: these executive body branches like the Social Security Administration, and 270 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:47,880 Speaker 3: we have these like non partisan bureaucrats essentially administering it. 271 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 3: And I think a lot of people like that idea. 272 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,720 Speaker 3: We like the idea maybe that the person who's inspecting 273 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,120 Speaker 3: our water is not a political appointee because they know 274 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:01,959 Speaker 3: they're war experience politics. Now, this is where there's like 275 00:14:02,360 --> 00:14:05,360 Speaker 3: a fundamental disagreement, Like the people of the russ Vote 276 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:08,920 Speaker 3: school say, essentially, the executive branch should just reflect the 277 00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 3: policies of the president. And if you have unelected bureaucrats 278 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 3: to use their phrase, making decisions that virg into policy, 279 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:17,959 Speaker 3: then you got a problem that shouldn't be happening, And 280 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 3: so they want to be able to basically enforce the 281 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 3: president's will across the executive branch and make the executive 282 00:14:25,480 --> 00:14:28,000 Speaker 3: branch way way, way, way way smaller. And if you 283 00:14:28,160 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 3: want the kinds of quote unquote non partisan things, Congress 284 00:14:31,920 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 3: should just do that. That's their view. So, like you 285 00:14:33,920 --> 00:14:36,200 Speaker 3: don't like it, pass the law. That's that's what they say. 286 00:14:36,680 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 2: Has Doge been successful then, as you see it, I 287 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 2: don't think Doge has been very successful at cutting the 288 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 2: budget deficit. 289 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 3: So Musk initially promised two trillion dollars I remember that, Yeah, 290 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 3: two trillion dollars in cuts, and over the last few 291 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 3: months he's moved the goalpost several times, Like first he 292 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 3: said two trillion, then he said one trillion, and the 293 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 3: latest is maybe one hundred and fifty billion, Yeah, twenty 294 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:06,800 Speaker 3: six it's so much smaller. And even that one hundred 295 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 3: and fifty billion, Like, I don't know if they've really 296 00:15:08,920 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 3: gotten there. Part of the problem is that, like the 297 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,480 Speaker 3: payroll is not a huge part of what the government does. 298 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:15,360 Speaker 3: It's actually very small. 299 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:16,640 Speaker 4: It's like a less than five percent. 300 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 3: You could fire a general workers and you still have 301 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 3: a pretty big budget. So I think in that sense 302 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,200 Speaker 3: it has not been a huge success. And I think 303 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,520 Speaker 3: politically you look at the popularity of Elon Musk and 304 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,560 Speaker 3: so on, it hasn't been a big success. They have 305 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:36,840 Speaker 3: managed to assert executive authority in a huge way, and 306 00:15:36,960 --> 00:15:39,560 Speaker 3: we don't yet know how lasting these changes will be. 307 00:15:39,720 --> 00:15:44,080 Speaker 3: So usaidea I mentioned CFPB is the Consumer Financial Production Bureau. 308 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 3: They're both like effectively no more in a case of CFPB, 309 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:50,840 Speaker 3: And I focus on this in the story because Vote, 310 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:52,560 Speaker 3: in addition to being the head of OBA, one of 311 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:54,400 Speaker 3: the workers there. Yeah, in addition to being the head 312 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 3: of OMB, Vote runs the CFPB on an interim basis. 313 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 3: And although courts have baickly stopped this effort to fire 314 00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:06,160 Speaker 3: everybody or fire almost everybody, what's happening now is anybody 315 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:08,400 Speaker 3: who works at the CFPB is in this limbo state. 316 00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 3: I mean, they technically still work there, but they're not 317 00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:13,480 Speaker 3: really able to do They're not like going into the offices, 318 00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 3: closed all of these actions that they were doing, all 319 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 3: the ways that they were, you know, trying to regulate 320 00:16:18,840 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 3: financial fraud. Many of the cases were dropped, and I 321 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 3: don't think there's a lot of optimism among people who 322 00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:27,160 Speaker 3: supported the CFPB that they'll be you know, resumed at 323 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 3: some point. They're basically dead. They've done a lot of 324 00:16:30,720 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 3: damage to these agencies that they really don't like. And 325 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 3: I think one of the reasons, just like the tariffs, 326 00:16:36,880 --> 00:16:39,000 Speaker 3: these drastic changes are going to be very hard because 327 00:16:39,040 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 3: you get a new president or a new Congress, and 328 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:43,880 Speaker 3: they could try to move very quickly to undo some 329 00:16:44,000 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 3: of this stuff, but this stuff, to build it back 330 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 3: is going to take a very long time, and maybe 331 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:49,400 Speaker 3: that's the goal. 332 00:16:50,480 --> 00:16:53,920 Speaker 4: What do you think is going to be DOGE going forward? 333 00:16:54,440 --> 00:16:57,320 Speaker 2: Now that Musk is taking at least a backseat, maybe 334 00:16:57,480 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 2: kind of slowly departing. 335 00:16:59,360 --> 00:17:02,200 Speaker 3: Like so my take on this is actually that he's 336 00:17:02,280 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 3: not really departing. I mean, oh, okay, so he's not 337 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:08,560 Speaker 3: going to be running DOGE. But like during this earnings call, 338 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 3: he said, I will still be working for Trump like 339 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 3: one or two days a week. This is a guy 340 00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:15,960 Speaker 3: with six companies. One or two days a week is 341 00:17:16,040 --> 00:17:19,720 Speaker 3: a lot of freaking time. I think they are clearly 342 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:23,280 Speaker 3: deemphasizing the work of Doge. What I mean by that 343 00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,520 Speaker 3: is the kind of performative layoffs the like slash and 344 00:17:27,640 --> 00:17:31,720 Speaker 3: burn cut contracts, ask questions. Later, Trump and Musk have 345 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 3: been telegraphing that that is coming to an end. They 346 00:17:34,160 --> 00:17:36,680 Speaker 3: realize this point that we heard that there's gonna be 347 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:39,679 Speaker 3: damage here, like they understand that, they understand their political risks. 348 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,720 Speaker 3: But Musk is not going anywhere in the Trump White House. 349 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:45,360 Speaker 3: And for the next few elections, I guess. 350 00:17:46,680 --> 00:17:50,640 Speaker 4: And votes plan realized partly, Yeah. 351 00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 3: I mean partly. I think. I think we don't yet 352 00:17:53,600 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 3: know how completely votes Plan will be realized until we 353 00:17:57,320 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 3: see how the courts behave because there's been a real 354 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 3: sustained effort to stop some of this stuff, and we 355 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:11,640 Speaker 3: just don't yet know how that's going to shake out. Okay, Stacey, 356 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 3: there have been these iconic media moments throughout political history. 357 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 3: So I'm thinking about the nineteen sixty television debate between 358 00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,520 Speaker 3: Richard Nixon and John F. 359 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:22,879 Speaker 5: Kennedy. 360 00:18:22,960 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 3: Do you know what I'm talking about? 361 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 2: Just the first television debate and kind of established politics 362 00:18:28,200 --> 00:18:29,080 Speaker 2: in a new way. 363 00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 4: It's sort of a more visual you know. 364 00:18:30,840 --> 00:18:33,800 Speaker 3: It's when voters learned that Richard Nixon was a little 365 00:18:33,840 --> 00:18:36,840 Speaker 3: bit older than jfk. And when we all learned, which 366 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 3: we now know well, that that can be a problem politically. Now, 367 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:42,720 Speaker 3: I want to suggest a modern analog, and I'm going 368 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:43,440 Speaker 3: to play you a clip. 369 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,120 Speaker 4: We're at We're at mar Lago. I can't even believe 370 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 4: this is happening. We got Donald Trump President of the 371 00:18:53,720 --> 00:19:00,000 Speaker 4: United States. Thank you podcast, Thank you. We're really really excited. 372 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 6: To be It's my honor, My honor. 373 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:05,120 Speaker 3: You come highly recommended by Dana White, and that's good 374 00:19:05,240 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 3: enough for me. All Right, you're laughing, Yes, but that 375 00:19:11,760 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 3: was important, and I think by the end of this 376 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 3: segment you are gonna agree with me that it was. 377 00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:17,400 Speaker 4: I'm Dana White's like the mixed martial arts guy. 378 00:19:17,520 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 3: That was Donald Trump. He was on a podcast called 379 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,800 Speaker 3: the Full Send Podcast. The people interviewing him, I don't 380 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:26,200 Speaker 3: even know their names. They're just the NLK boys. And 381 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 3: to talk about this clip and why it may be 382 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,840 Speaker 3: influenced not just the twenty twenty four election, but maybe 383 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:34,199 Speaker 3: like a lot of the stuff that's happening right now, 384 00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 3: We've got the perfect person, Sarah Fryar, BusinessWeek contributor, the 385 00:19:38,520 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 3: person at Bloomberg who runs all of our big tech coverage. 386 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:43,840 Speaker 3: Hey Sarah, Hello Max. 387 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 6: Yes, it was critical because this was Donald Trump's first 388 00:19:48,200 --> 00:19:52,360 Speaker 6: podcast in the manisphere, which you know, the person who 389 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 6: set it up tells me that's a term only the 390 00:19:54,240 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 6: media uses. But it's this really hyper masculine part of 391 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:02,639 Speaker 6: the Internet where people we're sort of a political but 392 00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 6: very pro manly aggression and where bros are gonna brow. 393 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:12,679 Speaker 6: It's like frat boys, and they love UFC and they 394 00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 6: love Dana White, they love YouTube pranks. The knelt Boys 395 00:20:16,440 --> 00:20:19,680 Speaker 6: really got their name as being these kind of jackass 396 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,880 Speaker 6: style pranksters the first time they rode an Air Force one. 397 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:27,240 Speaker 6: They also like burned fake Joe Biden ballots to see 398 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 6: if anyone would call them on it. 399 00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:31,920 Speaker 4: It's like jackass meeks punked. Yeah. 400 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 3: The question of how did Donald Trump get connected to 401 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 3: these guys has come up a lot, and what you 402 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 3: generally hear is it's Baron Trump, you know, his teenage son. Yes, 403 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:44,359 Speaker 3: he hangs out with the podcast bros. It would be him, 404 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,680 Speaker 3: But as Sarah wrote in her story, it's actually this 405 00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:52,159 Speaker 3: talent manager's former talent manager named John shahiti So used to. 406 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 6: Be a manager of pop stars and DJs in the 407 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 6: music industry and that was his entree to like digital media, 408 00:21:00,000 --> 00:21:02,800 Speaker 6: and he worked with a lot of the top vying creators. 409 00:21:02,800 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 6: If you remember Vine, it was like the predecessor to 410 00:21:05,040 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 6: TikTok that Twitter acquired that died. So he's been early 411 00:21:08,800 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 6: in a lot of these twists and turns of new celebrity. 412 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 6: And around the first Trump administration, he was getting a 413 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 6: lot of shade for being a fan of Donald Trump, 414 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:25,159 Speaker 6: and he realized that there might be a business opportunity 415 00:21:25,320 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 6: in leaving the music industry and going into podcasts where 416 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:34,719 Speaker 6: the algorithms were extremely friendly to this kind of pro 417 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 6: conservative content, and he started working with Nelk. Dana White 418 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 6: introduced him to Trump, and he basically told Trump like, 419 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 6: young people are going to come out and support you, like, 420 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 6: I know this market, I know these people. This audience 421 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 6: loves the idea of somebody just being themselves and not 422 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:58,040 Speaker 6: apologizing for it. That's kind of what trump stick is 423 00:21:59,040 --> 00:22:02,880 Speaker 6: in general. John Shahiti realizes this and he hooks Trump 424 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 6: up with the Nelck Boys, and from there it turns 425 00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:09,119 Speaker 6: into a strategy because that Nelk Boy's podcast that you 426 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 6: just heard the beginning of went super viral in part 427 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 6: because YouTube band it Max and I talk about this 428 00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,840 Speaker 6: all the time, but being canceled, being censored on the 429 00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 6: internet if you're a conservative, is actually really great for 430 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 6: business because people talk about it, it becomes a news story. 431 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,399 Speaker 6: They start paying to hear your voice, and so it 432 00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 6: became a big story on Fox. Trump loved all the buzz, 433 00:22:31,920 --> 00:22:35,600 Speaker 6: and then he started making podcasts a huge part of 434 00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,119 Speaker 6: his strategy. He was doing like one every week towards 435 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 6: the end of his campaign. It was Joe Rogan, it 436 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 6: was it was Aiden Ross, it was Theovon. 437 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:44,760 Speaker 4: It was this whole. 438 00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 6: Ecosystem of bros on the Internet. Who wants to just 439 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:51,199 Speaker 6: sit down and talk with Trump unfiltered for like two 440 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 6: or three hours. 441 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:56,240 Speaker 3: You just mentioned theovon, Sarah. Let's hear Theovon and Donald 442 00:22:56,280 --> 00:23:01,080 Speaker 3: Trump talking shortly before the twenty twenty four How did 443 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 3: you get addicted? 444 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 7: How did no? 445 00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,560 Speaker 5: I would just do cocaine? That was really well, yeah, 446 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:10,840 Speaker 5: so not just yeah, that's down and dirty. Yeah, and 447 00:23:10,920 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 5: this is yeah this, I mean it was yeah, but 448 00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:14,880 Speaker 5: you don't anymore. Now I don't do it anymore, man, 449 00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:16,880 Speaker 5: And I'm not doing is it too much? Too much 450 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,040 Speaker 5: to Some of the stuff started to get a real 451 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 5: rattle in it too. I don't know where we were 452 00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:23,840 Speaker 5: even getting it from in this country, but Yeah, it 453 00:23:23,880 --> 00:23:25,640 Speaker 5: started to make me feel like I was a mechanic 454 00:23:25,760 --> 00:23:25,919 Speaker 5: or so. 455 00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:28,640 Speaker 3: Do your way up with cocaine more than anything else 456 00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:29,200 Speaker 3: you can think of. 457 00:23:29,200 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 5: Okay, I'll turn you into a damn owl, homie. 458 00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,760 Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying it had you heard this already, Stacy, No, 459 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 3: this is the. 460 00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 4: Rallying cry for men across America. 461 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:42,159 Speaker 6: This is the humanization of Donald Trump for this audience. Right, 462 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 6: Like the fact that he is willing to go on 463 00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:49,520 Speaker 6: with this, you know, former MTV comedian turn YouTube podcaster 464 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:55,200 Speaker 6: and just just shoot the about cocaine makes him appealing 465 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,120 Speaker 6: to this young male voter. Not just that, but there's 466 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:04,200 Speaker 6: a large level of skepticism among the extremely online about 467 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 6: anyone who is too focus grouped, too tailored to what 468 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,960 Speaker 6: they want to hear, to fake right, And this is Trump. 469 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,919 Speaker 6: You know, he's talking about his brother and alcohol addiction, 470 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:19,040 Speaker 6: and he really gets into his personal life. And yeah, 471 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,680 Speaker 6: it's insane to have the former president of the United 472 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:26,200 Speaker 6: States banter about cocaine as he's trying to get elected. 473 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 4: Like that didn't used to work. 474 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:32,159 Speaker 3: So Shahiti is a Trump supporter. Dana White is a 475 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 3: Trump supporter. I've talked a few people in this world. 476 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,159 Speaker 3: And the thing that keeps coming up is basically like, actually, 477 00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 3: like these aren't super right wing, these podcasts. They're just 478 00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 3: kind of fratty, right, It's just it. 479 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,760 Speaker 2: And so yeah, the second podcast is often like into 480 00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 2: Bromide toothpased and working out. 481 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:54,400 Speaker 6: But Shahiti helped turn this world into a pro Trump world. 482 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 6: It could have gone either way. I mean, these guys 483 00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:58,960 Speaker 6: have Bernie Sanders on all the time too. I know 484 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 6: the Kamala Harrison campaign really wanted to go on theovon. 485 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 6: They really wanted to go on Joe Rogan. They were 486 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 6: trying to make it happen. But there's a higher bar 487 00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 6: when you're currently in the White House the vice president, 488 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 6: and there are certain things you can and can't talk about. 489 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,480 Speaker 6: There's certain places you can and can't be And so 490 00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,400 Speaker 6: her team was a little bit too skittish about going 491 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,600 Speaker 6: on with these guys and having a completely unscripted, controlled 492 00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 6: conversation and people really weren't sure too if it was 493 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:27,560 Speaker 6: going to be worth it. This is just a cordonship 494 00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,440 Speaker 6: of my sources within that campaign to take her off 495 00:25:30,520 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 6: the trail and go sit down with Rogan for three hours, Like, 496 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 6: is that a good use of her time? Does she 497 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,560 Speaker 6: even have a chance with those voters? So it didn't 498 00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,280 Speaker 6: work because they had more rules and they were more skeptical. 499 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,400 Speaker 6: But Trump went all in because he trusted Dana White 500 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:48,320 Speaker 6: and he trusted John Shahiti to tell him what was 501 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 6: going to work, and so far it had been working. 502 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:51,600 Speaker 6: So we just doubled down. 503 00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 4: One thing that's interesting to me. 504 00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,800 Speaker 2: We were just talking about Elon Musk, and it seems 505 00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 2: like the brosphere, like the Dana White figures and things 506 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 2: like that, is one part of it. The tech bros 507 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,760 Speaker 2: seemed like a totally separate culture, but it seems like 508 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 2: they kind of. 509 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:12,320 Speaker 3: There's an intersection here. I mean, fun te My favorite 510 00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,640 Speaker 3: fun fact about Dana White is that he's a technologist. 511 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,480 Speaker 3: He just joined the board of Meta Platforms, Mark Zuckerberg's company. 512 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:19,760 Speaker 4: I don't know if that makes him at. 513 00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 3: I don't think. 514 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:22,520 Speaker 6: I don't know if that makes them technologist. I think 515 00:26:22,560 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 6: that just means that Zuckerberg also wants in on this world. 516 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 3: Stacy brog Up Zuckerberg sarahs talking about Zuckerberg. Sarah also 517 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,560 Speaker 3: wrote a book all about Facebook and influencer culture called 518 00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 3: No Filter. So Sarah, we got to talk for a 519 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:38,640 Speaker 3: minute about Zuckerberg getting man pilled. I'm going to play 520 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,760 Speaker 3: one more clip. It's Zuckerberg and Joe Rogan. 521 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,200 Speaker 1: For me, it's, uh, just I think a lot of 522 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: a corporate world is like pretty culturally neutered, and the 523 00:26:52,480 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 1: the kind of masculine energy I think is is good. Yeah, obviously, 524 00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 1: you know society has plenty of that, but but I 525 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,399 Speaker 1: think corporate culture was really like trying to get away 526 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,119 Speaker 1: from it. And I think having a culture that like 527 00:27:06,280 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: celebrates the aggression a bit more has its own merits 528 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:11,280 Speaker 1: that are really positive. 529 00:27:11,880 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 2: I should say, like corporate CEOs eighty percent male, ninety 530 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:15,879 Speaker 2: percent white. 531 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,480 Speaker 3: Mark Zuckerberg was to make it it's eighty one. 532 00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:21,760 Speaker 2: I mean, obviously this was a very famous quote and 533 00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 2: just this idea that the workplace was becoming more feminine. 534 00:27:25,960 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 2: I think because of all the flexible work from home 535 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 2: DEI policies and things like that. 536 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,680 Speaker 6: Zuckerberg doesn't do much without an angle. And this was 537 00:27:34,720 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 6: a couple months before he was set to testify in 538 00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:42,520 Speaker 6: front of an FTC lawyer who wants to convince a 539 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,160 Speaker 6: judge to break up his company and spin off Instagram 540 00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 6: and WhatsApp. He's got tons of pressure in Europe. He 541 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:53,360 Speaker 6: has a TikTok band hovering that Trump could decide whether 542 00:27:53,480 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 6: to enact that law or not. There's so much at 543 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,920 Speaker 6: stake for him right now with appealing to the Trumpman, 544 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,320 Speaker 6: And yeah, part of it is he likes this world, 545 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 6: he feels comfortable there. He wants to embrace it. 546 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 4: But it's also strategic, the. 547 00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:12,520 Speaker 3: Most awkward embrace imaginable, though. 548 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:15,480 Speaker 2: I can I ask you both something which has been 549 00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 2: kind of in the back of my mind this whole show, 550 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,639 Speaker 2: which is what's the appeal of the manisphere right now? Like, 551 00:28:21,760 --> 00:28:25,399 Speaker 2: what is it about this culture this moment that's like 552 00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 2: drawing in so many people. Obviously they're you know, people 553 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:31,159 Speaker 2: are jumping on the badwagon for their own reasons, but 554 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 2: it's really appealing to people. It's speaking to something right now, 555 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 2: and I'm wondering what that might be. 556 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,320 Speaker 6: I think it's the identity issue. 557 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 3: You know. 558 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,920 Speaker 6: If you hear them talk, they're like, we shouldn't raise 559 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 6: young men in America to think that they're mean, that 560 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,280 Speaker 6: they're evil, right, we should celebrate them, and we should 561 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 6: not be ashamed of our of our natural aggression. We 562 00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 6: should not be ashamed of liking hot women. It's this 563 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 6: whole like backlash to equality which has really gained steam 564 00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 6: in the last few years, and when it comes to 565 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 6: somebody like Zuckerberger others in the tech world, that tech 566 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:11,240 Speaker 6: world leadership felt like they really played nice with the 567 00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 6: Biden administration as they amassed like more power than we've 568 00:29:15,520 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 6: ever seen in the history of the world. They felt 569 00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,680 Speaker 6: like they made some small concessions to try to make 570 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 6: sure their services were like safer, which maybe hurt their 571 00:29:25,880 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 6: profits a little bit, and they felt like they should 572 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 6: have been rewarded for that. They felt like they were 573 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,440 Speaker 6: doing what they had to do to recruit and retrain 574 00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:34,320 Speaker 6: employees and make them feel like they were part of 575 00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 6: a mission based company. But because the Biden administration continued 576 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 6: the tech clash on from the Trump administration, they felt like, 577 00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 6: what's the point if you don't like me, even when 578 00:29:44,960 --> 00:29:47,800 Speaker 6: I tried to be liked by you, I'm just gonna 579 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 6: like flip the table. 580 00:29:57,520 --> 00:30:00,760 Speaker 4: Everyone. Stacy here just a quick note. In this segment, 581 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 4: we talk about a company called Klue. In fact, we 582 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,959 Speaker 4: got it wrong. The company's name is Clue. Our deepest 583 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:10,680 Speaker 4: apologies to the good people at Klue. We will try 584 00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,040 Speaker 4: to be less clueless in the future. 585 00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:13,960 Speaker 3: Enjoy. 586 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:16,800 Speaker 2: We have a segment at the end of our show 587 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:18,800 Speaker 2: called the Underrated Story of the Week, where we look 588 00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:20,440 Speaker 2: around and try to find a story that we think 589 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 2: maybe didn't get as much attention as it should have. 590 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 3: Wait, but Stacy, yes, I need to chime in here 591 00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 3: because you and Brad did this last week, and Brad 592 00:30:29,280 --> 00:30:29,880 Speaker 3: gave a take. 593 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:34,640 Speaker 2: Oh, this was the women going to spaces Humanity his 594 00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 2: pro Katie Perry Space trip Cake, and. 595 00:30:39,160 --> 00:30:40,280 Speaker 3: I just feel the need. 596 00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:42,880 Speaker 4: I think it was trying to be positive about it. 597 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,280 Speaker 3: I feel like I owe it to our listeners to 598 00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:47,080 Speaker 3: say I disagree with that. 599 00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 4: You strongly disagree. 600 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,320 Speaker 3: It was a lame stunt. I'm sorry, there's no there's 601 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:52,520 Speaker 3: no control. 602 00:30:52,440 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 4: Merits to Katy Perry and Space. 603 00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 3: You think no, All right, let's move on. All right. 604 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 2: So Underrated Story was a very delightful item that I 605 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 2: saw amidst all of the big stories of this week, 606 00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 2: of which there were a lot. But there was a 607 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:14,000 Speaker 2: Columbia student who was suspended because he developed this cheating software. 608 00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 2: It was apparently an AI tool it's called Kluey that 609 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:21,240 Speaker 2: helps you cheat on everything by apparently you can have 610 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 2: a hidden window in your browser. So if you're taking 611 00:31:23,600 --> 00:31:26,000 Speaker 2: a test online or doing an interview online or something, 612 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,239 Speaker 2: you can see information that the computer or the other 613 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 2: person you're chatting with cannot detect. So he he got 614 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 2: suspended from Columbia and wait, let. 615 00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 3: Me get and it had ruined his life. Now he 616 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 3: had to go home to his parents. They're very mad 617 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 3: at him. 618 00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 4: Oh is this terrible? 619 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:43,120 Speaker 2: I mean, can you imagine trying to apply to job 620 00:31:43,240 --> 00:31:49,080 Speaker 2: terrible situation getting suspended? Actually no, because nothing is what 621 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,320 Speaker 2: it seems in the manisphere. And he just announced that, 622 00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 2: in fact, he's launching a company to launch this cheating product. 623 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 2: And he just got five point three million dollars in 624 00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,520 Speaker 2: seed funding from benure capitalists who really think there's a 625 00:32:05,600 --> 00:32:07,000 Speaker 2: lot of promise in Klue. 626 00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,720 Speaker 3: There's nothing a venture capitalist likes better than you getting 627 00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,080 Speaker 3: kicked out of your Ivy League college. I can tell you, 628 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 3: Like Peter Thiel, I don't think he's an investor in Klue, 629 00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:19,600 Speaker 3: but like that is like the number one hitting a nerve. 630 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:22,120 Speaker 3: Mark Zuckerberg tossed out a Harvard look at him. Now 631 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:24,600 Speaker 3: he's worth one hundred billion dollars or whatever. 632 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:29,520 Speaker 4: So the student Roy Lee, he released this video of him. 633 00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 2: Promoting klue And in the video, he's on a date 634 00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,840 Speaker 2: with this woman, lying about his age. He's apparently like 635 00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 2: nineteen or twenty or something, and he's lying to this 636 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,840 Speaker 2: woman and he has these like hidden windows in front 637 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:48,600 Speaker 2: of his face, and he's like lying to her about 638 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 2: all this stuff. That is how he's advertising the product. 639 00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 3: I know I look a little young for my age, 640 00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 3: but I promise you I'm thirty years old. 641 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 4: Okay, well maybe you artist way older than you look. 642 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,160 Speaker 3: This is like the worst ad I have ever seen 643 00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 3: for any product of all time. I have to say, 644 00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:10,880 Speaker 3: because it doesn't work. He gets rejected, he gives rejected. 645 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 3: His cheating tool completely fails. It's like, here's why AI 646 00:33:14,760 --> 00:33:15,360 Speaker 3: is useless. 647 00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:20,400 Speaker 2: Well, like five point three million dollars would say otherwise. 648 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 6: I mean, people are going to see through it if 649 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 6: you use AI to get through a date. 650 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 3: I have to say, like the tagline for this company, 651 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,880 Speaker 3: cheat on Everything? Is that the tag that's their tagline, 652 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,080 Speaker 3: Kluey cheat on everything of people? 653 00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 6: You want to give your money? 654 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,240 Speaker 3: Right, that's got promise. I'm just saying. 655 00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 2: The show is produced by Stacy Wong. Magnus Hendrickson is 656 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 2: our supervising producer. Amy Keane is our editor, and Brendon 657 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:51,840 Speaker 2: Francis Nenham is our executive producer. Sage Bauman heads Bloomberg Podcasts, 658 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:54,719 Speaker 2: and if you have a story that should be our business, 659 00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 2: email us at Everybody's at Bloomberg dot net. That is, 660 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,800 Speaker 2: everybody with an ass at Bloomberg dot net. Thanks for listening, 661 00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:05,040 Speaker 2: and we'll see you next week.