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Speaker 1: Hey, that folks.

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Speaker 2: It is Saturday, March seventh, and I have no idea

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Speaker 2: what this episode of Amy and TJ is about. With that,

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Speaker 2: welcome to this episode. This is one of these we

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Speaker 2: do every once in a while and they can be fun.

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Speaker 2: We should do them more often. But Robes has kept

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Speaker 2: me in the dark about this new dating trend that's

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Speaker 2: out there, and she wanted to get my honest, immediate,

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Speaker 2: authentic reaction to it.

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Speaker 1: I really don't know what this is.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I love you know, I don't know about any

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Speaker 3: of you, but I love reading about new dating trends

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Speaker 3: or toxic dating trends, even though I'm not dating. It's

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Speaker 3: just kind of funny to see where things are. And honestly,

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Speaker 3: with my daughter's dating, it's just it's so different than

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Speaker 3: when we were in the mix.

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Speaker 4: But there is a new it's called a toxic dating.

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Speaker 1: Toxic so this isn't a good thing.

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Speaker 3: It's not a good thing, and it's something to be

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Speaker 3: aware of. So if you're out there and I say

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Speaker 3: this phrase, you may be like, uh, huh, been there,

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Speaker 3: done that scene it, experienced it, But I want to

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Speaker 3: get what you.

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Speaker 4: Think this might be. It's called ghost lighting.

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Speaker 1: Well, we have gas lighting, right?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 1: So ghosting, am I on the right track?

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Speaker 4: Correct?

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Speaker 2: Ghosting is is when you just bounce on somebody. So

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Speaker 2: ghost lighting is it when huh what is it? You

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Speaker 2: disappear but blame the other person for it.

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Speaker 1: How does this work?

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Speaker 4: Okay, that's actually you're on the right track.

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Speaker 3: So it's a toxic combination of ghosting and gas lighting.

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Speaker 4: So you got that right? Ding ding ding ding ding.

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Speaker 3: Here's what happens ghost lighters. They'll they'll ghost, they'll drop

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Speaker 3: all communication. You won't know where they went or why

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Speaker 3: they left, and then they'll reinitiate contact later and act

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Speaker 3: as if nothing happened and they didn't do anything wrong.

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Speaker 4: So they gaslight you. Wait, so they ghost you.

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Speaker 2: They don't come back and explain why they've been going on.

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Speaker 2: They just show back up and everything's normal. I don't

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Speaker 2: want to grab a.

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Speaker 4: Drink, yep, So they guess. So, so here's that's what

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Speaker 4: they do.

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Speaker 3: They ghost, They show back up, and then they gaslight

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Speaker 3: the person they were dating into believing they never ghosted them.

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Speaker 2: What you convince someone that, oh I wasn't going I

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Speaker 2: didn't hear from you that kind of a thing. Oh

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Speaker 2: you never hit me back. I remember we're supposed to

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Speaker 2: go to this thing. I didn't hear from you. Now,

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Speaker 2: how much time are we talking? Like a week, two weeks,

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Speaker 2: two months, six months, It could.

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Speaker 4: Be any period of time.

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Speaker 3: So there was a dating expert who put it like

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Speaker 3: this when she was trying to describe.

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Speaker 4: What ghost lighting is.

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Speaker 3: This is so interesting, she said, what makes it different

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Speaker 3: from simple ghosting is the psychological twist. Ghosting is avoidance.

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Speaker 3: Ghost Lighting adds distortion by manipulating the facts, so you're

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Speaker 3: doubting your own.

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Speaker 1: Reality, which is gaslighting. Correct.

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Speaker 3: So they were saying, here's what you look out for

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Speaker 3: because when the ghost lighter reinitiates contact and wants to

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Speaker 3: reach out to you and hit you up, they'll do

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Speaker 3: it on social media.

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Speaker 4: Likes first, so it's kind of subtle. They'll start liking

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Speaker 4: your social.

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Speaker 3: Media posts again, or they might slide into your DMS

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Speaker 3: just kind of like casually, like hey, checking in on you,

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Speaker 3: or they'll actually start texting you. But they're saying that

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Speaker 3: this is now a trend that's emerging that has never

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Speaker 3: really been seen.

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Speaker 4: Before because now, yes, everyone's on dating.

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Speaker 3: Apps, everyone, they're not doing the face to face stuff.

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Speaker 3: So when you're doing it on apps and you're texting,

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Speaker 3: they can kind of make you think like, oh, well,

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Speaker 3: maybe I just missed this DM.

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Speaker 1: Well that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: Just you've heard folks, because we love to watch some

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Speaker 3: of these dating shows like ninety Day Fiance, you've heard

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Speaker 3: people react like, oh, he's liking my posts? Now does

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Speaker 3: that mean that that he wants to get back to?

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Speaker 4: What's that saying?

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Speaker 3: So everyone's always trying to interpret online activity differently, and

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Speaker 3: so that leaves some gray area for this to occur.

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Speaker 2: Does this does it happen whatever you're researching and reading,

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Speaker 2: Does it happen equally with men and women? Is a

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Speaker 2: man more likely to do with a woman to do it?

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Speaker 2: Or it's well equal opportunity here?

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Speaker 3: That wasn't I didn't see that, but I would if

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Speaker 3: I'm just a someone basing this on anecdotal evidence, I

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Speaker 3: would think this is maybe more something that men.

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Speaker 4: Why because it just is how many women just ghost men?

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Speaker 4: I mean, I guess it happens, but I feel like

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Speaker 4: it's more men who do that.

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Speaker 1: To say ghost women? Huh, how would I know? I

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Speaker 1: don't know what's going on in this dating world, and.

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Speaker 3: You know what, and I don't think people in the

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Speaker 3: dating world, know what's going on in the dating world,

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Speaker 3: because they say, so many relationships are now situationships, so

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Speaker 3: many connections are in a gray zone.

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Speaker 4: I see this and hear this from my daughters.

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Speaker 1: I'm confused. What's a situationship? Again?

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Speaker 2: We hear it all the time. We think we have

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Speaker 2: a general idea. Is this what we called what friends

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Speaker 2: with benefits? Or what do we call this? At some

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Speaker 2: point a situationship where you're you're seeing other people.

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Speaker 3: Maybe, but it's kind of unclear, like you're in a

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Speaker 3: situation with this person, but it's not a defined relationationship

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Speaker 3: so that you're texting, right, you're damning some people want

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Speaker 3: that you're seeing each other, but you haven't actually defined

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Speaker 3: what your relationship is.

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Speaker 4: And look, I know that.

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Speaker 3: People I don't think have these social skills, or a

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Speaker 3: lot of younger folks don't and haven't developed the face

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Speaker 3: to face social skills where you actually flat out say.

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Speaker 4: Hey, what is this that we're doing?

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Speaker 1: Are we social skills to ask a question?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Because I think it feels, oh, that's too intrusive, right,

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Speaker 3: I don't want to.

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Speaker 4: Push you know, how do we get there?

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Speaker 3: But even here your own thirteen year old daughter who's

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Speaker 3: just now starting to have friends saying who's dating whom?

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Speaker 3: And it's all happening on text, It's all happening on

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Speaker 3: social media. It's not happening face to face the same

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Speaker 3: way it did with us. We pass notes maybe in class,

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Speaker 3: but that's we still had to communicate face to face

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Speaker 3: or at least on the phone.

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Speaker 2: But because of now how people go about dating and interacting,

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Speaker 2: it has opened up an opportunity for something like ghost

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Speaker 2: lighting to be prevalent.

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Speaker 1: Is what you're saying, correct?

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Speaker 2: How much of this, though, is somebody having a regret

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Speaker 2: or a second thought, or say, Okay, I'm I'm bored tonight,

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Speaker 2: let me go hit this person up again?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Right?

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Speaker 2: Is that I'm trying to find the motivation for the

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Speaker 2: ghost lighting? Is it just a matter of hey, we're

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Speaker 2: I'm seeing other people, you're seeing other people. I'll get

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Speaker 2: back to you when I can, when I need to

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Speaker 2: or when I'm bored. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: I think the ghost lighting is someone trying to control

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Speaker 3: what they want when they want it, and then not

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Speaker 3: wanting to take any sort of responsibility for what that

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Speaker 3: might do to someone else.

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Speaker 2: Psychologically, we uhould just call that a crappy partner, right,

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Speaker 2: that is.

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Speaker 4: A jerk and asking yes yes.

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Speaker 3: But I thought this was interesting this dating expert who

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Speaker 3: was weighing in on this, I was reading this article.

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Speaker 3: She said, the ambiguity, this gray zone, you know that

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Speaker 3: we're talking about where no one really knows where things stands.

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Speaker 4: Everyone is just in a situationship.

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Speaker 3: That ambiguity is what gives people now today an easy exit.

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Speaker 4: Out of a relationship.

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Speaker 3: And then when someone can exit without any consequence, they

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Speaker 3: can come back without any consequence.

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Speaker 4: And that is what is happening.

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Speaker 2: Oh, because you're not actually you're not actually being reprimanded

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Speaker 2: if you will, for being wrong or being a jerk,

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Speaker 2: or for dumping anybody.

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Speaker 1: Right, because it disappears.

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Speaker 3: It was never clear what you were anyway, and so

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Speaker 3: that's part of the issue. So there are some tips

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Speaker 3: for folks, for anyone out there, if this is ringing

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Speaker 3: a bell, if this is resonated, if you were like,

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Speaker 3: oh my god, that's what's happening to me.

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Speaker 4: Now it has a name.

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Speaker 2: Before you get to the tips, where did this come

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Speaker 2: like this? Are they just another thing where they're start

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Speaker 2: assigning names to things on social media or there something

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Speaker 2: that has been researched by therapists. Where does this come from?

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Speaker 1: Anyway?

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Speaker 3: I think people start talking about it online, people start

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Speaker 3: then realizing it's happening actually quite often, and then yes,

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Speaker 3: people give it cute names.

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Speaker 4: And I don't know if this has gotten any sort

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Speaker 4: of grant.

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Speaker 3: For funding to research, but it is interesting you hear about.

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Speaker 3: We were actually laughing about all these trends. There was

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Speaker 3: something this week called Alpine divorce. It was macab I

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Speaker 3: was like, what you go and do outdoor activities and

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Speaker 3: then leave and leave them alone and they have to

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Speaker 3: find their way home.

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Speaker 4: What that sounds like a dateline?

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Speaker 1: I look for that episode tomorrow Divorce.

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Speaker 4: I didn't even want to go there.

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Speaker 3: I felt like ghost lighting was a little safer space

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Speaker 3: to talk about. But if it's happening to you, this

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Speaker 3: is These are the tips from folks relationship. Back to worts,

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Speaker 3: they say, do not smooth it over, call that person out.

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Speaker 4: You have to say to them.

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Speaker 3: They actually gave language to use to somebody like I

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Speaker 3: think people are afraid of demanding what they want or

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Speaker 3: speaking out loud what they deserve, and so they just

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Speaker 3: kind of let stuff happen. They're saying, you have to

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Speaker 3: actually call people out and say when you stopped responding.

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Speaker 3: I took that as a lack of interest and a

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Speaker 3: lack of communication.

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Speaker 4: And then the big thing is pause, see what they

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Speaker 4: say back.

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Speaker 3: Don't start explaining how you felt, or just say you

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Speaker 3: stopped responding. I took that as you didn't want to

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Speaker 3: be in this relationship. You weren't communicating with me.

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Speaker 1: First of all, it wasn't a relationship, it was a situationship.

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Speaker 1: Is how a jerkquil.

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Speaker 4: Responds yeah, right, yes, and so yes and you.

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Speaker 3: The point being is listen, pause, do not say anything else.

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Speaker 3: I think that's something that I have to remember to

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Speaker 3: do often. Don't fill the silence. Silence is so powerful

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Speaker 3: because eventually that tension, that silence will force the other

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Speaker 3: person to have to speak, and then you have to listen.

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Speaker 4: Do they take responsibility? Make sure they.

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Speaker 3: Acknowledge you're right I did stop communicating with you, or

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Speaker 3: if they just minimize it or deflect, well you you

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Speaker 3: were busy and I was busy, and you knew I

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Speaker 3: had to go. Then you know that person is making

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Speaker 3: excuses and is not going to be serious about this relationship.

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Speaker 4: You have more tips on the list, Well, that's the big.

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Speaker 3: You just need to demand an answer. You cannot take

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Speaker 3: ambiguity as a response.

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Speaker 2: Okay, ask cause you just triggered another question. Is it

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Speaker 2: always intentionally manipulative or is this something that's just a

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Speaker 2: consequence of how people are dating?

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Speaker 4: Now you know what I think it might be. It

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Speaker 4: might be both.

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Speaker 3: I think I think you also could maybe unintentionally do this,

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Speaker 3: maybe just because it's permitted if no one calls you

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Speaker 3: want it. I do think that that happens a lot

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Speaker 3: with bad behavior. If you are being allowed to behave

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Speaker 3: a certain way, think about a kid with a parent,

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Speaker 3: You're probably going to do it because we are selfish

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Speaker 3: by nature.

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Speaker 4: That is survival, right, we are born selfish.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, we're going to take what we want when

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Speaker 3: we want it, and then we're going to move until

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Speaker 3: someone calls you want it.

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Speaker 4: And so that's kind of the point.

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Speaker 3: If you are serious about being in a relationship with somebody,

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Speaker 3: you cannot let this slide.

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Speaker 4: You have to call them on it.

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Speaker 3: So when we come back, we're going to tell you

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Speaker 3: now what the relationship experts say you should never do.

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Speaker 4: If you think you're being ghost lighted.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back. She's laughing at me because what's the right language.

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Speaker 2: This is a new word, so I don't know past tense.

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Speaker 2: It goes lighted a gut ghost lit when during.

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Speaker 4: The commercial break?

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Speaker 3: That is the question he asked me, and I laughed

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Speaker 3: so hard because I hadn't considered it.

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Speaker 4: I guess I was using it as a verb, and ghost.

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Speaker 3: Lighting is an action. But are you are you ghost

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Speaker 3: have you been ghost lit? I just got ghost or

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Speaker 3: have you been ghost lighted?

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Speaker 1: Man? I don't know which you want to go with.

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Speaker 1: That's funny, but yes, goes lighting. This is interesting, But

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Speaker 1: I am I am. I asked you a question before

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Speaker 1: we went to the break.

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Speaker 2: I'm fascinated by the idea of if this is just

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Speaker 2: a consequence and is not necessarily intentional or meant to

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Speaker 2: be manipulative. I'm sure if someone does that, but just

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Speaker 2: the nature of how they do it. Now I think, I, well,

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Speaker 2: one of your daughters like this. I hear about their

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Speaker 2: dating and how they go about it, and it's just,

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Speaker 2: what do you mean you haven't met way you mean

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Speaker 2: you've been talking on what oh, what do you mean?

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Speaker 1: This and that? And you're just going for this. I

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Speaker 1: don't understand their dating.

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Speaker 2: So it's a matter of sometimes you don't have to

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Speaker 2: follow up, you don't have to reach out again. You

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Speaker 2: don't have to see that person in the hallway or

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Speaker 2: at the office or in the call.

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Speaker 3: You don't see them, I know, And yet your feelings

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Speaker 3: still get hurt. Right, nothing's changed about who we are

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Speaker 3: on the inside. And I think about it from a

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Speaker 3: female perspective, and a lot of these like, look, you're

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Speaker 3: wanting answers, but you're afraid to push too hard. You

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Speaker 3: don't want to be annoying or ask well do you

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Speaker 3: really like me? You don't want to seem insecure. And

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Speaker 3: in that sense, you just let people get away with

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Speaker 3: treating you like crap because you don't want to be

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Speaker 3: demanding and you don't want to be that girl. And

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Speaker 3: so I do think still, yes, yes, and I do

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Speaker 3: look back in the day this was all happening on

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Speaker 3: phone in a real conversation.

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Speaker 4: Now this is all happening by text.

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Speaker 3: So yes, I hear from You're right, one of my

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Speaker 3: daughters who's like, I don't know what's going on. He

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Speaker 3: was texting me for hours and hours and hours and

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Speaker 3: then silent, you know, and I don't know what to do.

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Speaker 3: And because they never saw each other, and they're not talking.

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Speaker 4: It's it's extra confusing. It's a total mind game out.

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Speaker 2: And then they laugh at me because when I hear

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Speaker 2: that story from your daughter is about dating, I say,

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Speaker 2: what's the problem here, Send a message right now and

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Speaker 2: ask what's up? What's the big deal? Why are we

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Speaker 2: sitting around? And I get shot down every time. Of

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Speaker 2: course I'm not gonna do that. Of course you can't

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Speaker 2: do that. Of course you can't reach out. Of course

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Speaker 2: you can't talk.

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Speaker 4: You gotta play it cool. You gotta play it like

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Speaker 4: you don't care. You gotta play it.

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Speaker 3: Like it no't matter and it wasn't a big deal.

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Speaker 3: And oh I wasn't that into you anyway. That's the

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Speaker 3: ego talking.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, you know where.

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Speaker 2: I am on that. We just don't have time. We're

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Speaker 2: grown and we're adult folks. It's okay to ask somebody

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Speaker 2: how they feel.

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Speaker 4: Your rejection is what it is.

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Speaker 2: And you know what, get rejected now instead of in

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Speaker 2: five years. It's okay, Like it's okay. We're not building

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Speaker 2: ourselves up. We're not building our kids up for disappointment later.

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Speaker 4: It could be much better to be disappointed now.

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Speaker 1: You have to go through these things.

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Speaker 2: You know how many towns My heart was broken before

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Speaker 2: I was a senior in high school.

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Speaker 1: I mean, just you go through it. You just it's

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Speaker 1: a part of it.

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Speaker 2: So I see these games sometimes being played and it's

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Speaker 2: it's a whole new it's a whole new world.

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Speaker 4: All right. Well, if you think this is happening to you,

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Speaker 4: here is what not to do.

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Speaker 3: I love this advice. It's applicable to so many things.

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Speaker 3: We were just talking about. Everyone always wanting the why,

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Speaker 3: and it's so destructive. So number one, no matter what,

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Speaker 3: do not look for why they go slide at you.

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Speaker 3: The quote from the relationship expert is this, It can

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Speaker 3: drive you crazy trying to psycho analyze the person and

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Speaker 3: figure out why they did it. It does not help

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Speaker 3: to solve the mystery.

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Speaker 2: Are they saying that don't even ask the person why

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Speaker 2: or just don't get in your own head.

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Speaker 4: Either way they say, yes, don't look for it.

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Speaker 3: They say it actually helps you heal to not solve

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Speaker 3: the mystery because it allows you, This is what we

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Speaker 3: were just saying, to process the hurt, to process the rejection,

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Speaker 3: and to admit to yourself that it felt dismissive.

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Speaker 4: And that it upset you. We all like we try

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Speaker 4: to pretend like, oh, I didn't care, I didn't like

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Speaker 4: him that much anyway, it didn't matter. That is not helpful.

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Speaker 3: We're not acknowledging that it hurt you. And you have

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Speaker 3: to acknowledge that it hurt you to heal.

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Speaker 4: From it and to make sure it doesn't happen again.

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Speaker 4: I thought that was such good.

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Speaker 1: As Gerice right on a bunch of things. Not just this,

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Speaker 1: but that's yes.

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Speaker 3: This is applicable to so many things in life. I

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Speaker 3: just thought this was some of the best advice I

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Speaker 3: had seen. And then that second thing to do, what

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Speaker 3: not to do do not blame yourself for their actions?

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Speaker 1: Oh my god.

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Speaker 4: If no this is what women do, I can speak

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Speaker 4: for myself.

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Speaker 3: If only I had said it this way, if only

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Speaker 3: I had done this differently, if only I had whatever,

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Speaker 3: you start thinking about how you could have kept him

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Speaker 3: or not upset him, And that is so dangerous because

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Speaker 3: now you're going to try and change what you want

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Speaker 3: or feel or think to make someone else like you,

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Speaker 3: which is so dangerous.

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Speaker 4: We've all done it, we've all been there.

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Speaker 3: But I just loved this advice. The what not to

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Speaker 3: do was so much better almost than even what to do?

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Speaker 1: What did I do that made him not want to

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Speaker 1: reach out to me?

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Speaker 4: Correct? Correct? And it just it just eats away at

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Speaker 4: your self esteem. It eats away at valuing yourself.

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Speaker 3: You start criticizing yourself for someone else's selfish actions.

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Speaker 2: Wow, ghost lighting, yep, who knew? Who knew there was

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Speaker 2: that there are? There was a different dating trend almost

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Speaker 2: you you introduced at least once a month, sometimes just

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Speaker 2: once a week that there's some new thing.

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Speaker 1: I had not heard about this one.

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Speaker 3: But you know what I think when you The reason

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Speaker 3: why I love looking at all these dating trends is

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Speaker 3: it helps all of us in any relationship. You just

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Speaker 3: start understanding maybe and having a fun little phrase or

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Speaker 3: a way to say it actually is something that there

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Speaker 3: are lessons in some of these toxic dating trends that

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Speaker 3: actually happen in a lot of relationships and platonic ones too.

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Speaker 3: So anyway, everybody, make sure that you're not the ghost

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Speaker 3: lighter or you're not getting ghost.

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Speaker 2: Lit, ghost lighted, You're not the goes lighter and don't

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Speaker 2: get ghost lit.

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Speaker 1: That's what we're going.

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Speaker 4: That's what I went with.

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Speaker 1: You know, it always sounds like you it's gonna be

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Speaker 1: lit up in here tonight.

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Speaker 4: Don't get ghosts.

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Speaker 3: Don't get ghost all right, everybody, And with that, thank

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Speaker 3: you for listening to us.

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Speaker 4: I'm made Robock alongside TJ. Holmes. We will talk to

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Speaker 4: you soon