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Speaker 1: Hey, there are folks. It is Thursday, October ninth, and

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Speaker 1: he was one week away from his execution date when

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Speaker 1: a Texas inmate heard the words I guess every death

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Speaker 1: row inmate wants to hear. They have stayed your execution.

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Speaker 1: And with that, welcome to this episode of Amy and TJ.

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Speaker 1: Robert Robertson Rose, We've been in following this case for

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Speaker 1: quite a while. Cannot believe here we are. He supposed

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Speaker 1: to be executed a week from today. He got news

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Speaker 1: that's not going forward.

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Speaker 2: Yes, October has been a scary but a good month

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Speaker 2: for Robert Robertson because this is the second time in

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Speaker 2: one year, in a period of twelve months, where there

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Speaker 2: have been interventions to stop an imminent execution. He would

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Speaker 2: have been and if this is eventually to go through,

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Speaker 2: he would be the first person ever executed after being

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Speaker 2: convicted of shaking baby syndrome. That's how flimsy and now

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Speaker 2: really they say on warranted and baseless that science is

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Speaker 2: that was used to convict him all those years ago.

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Speaker 1: If you've been following this case, we certainly have. You've

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Speaker 1: been keeping up with us on our morning run. But

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Speaker 1: Robert Robertson, I was fifty eight years old. He was

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Speaker 1: convicted of killing his own daughter, a two year old Nikki,

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Speaker 1: A story in the circumstances we'll get into, but he

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Speaker 1: was convicted based on shaken baby syndrome. Well, a lot

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Speaker 1: of that science has changed, and if he were to

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Speaker 1: go to trial today, they wouldn't be allowed to even

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Speaker 1: use the same science that they used all those years

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Speaker 1: ago to convict him. So he went before a court

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Speaker 1: of appeals, and that quart of appeals has today come

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Speaker 1: back and said we're going to halt your execution robes.

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Speaker 1: They haven't said we are ending in or taking you

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Speaker 1: off death row. They essentially said, nope, we're gonna stop

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Speaker 1: it until another court at least here's.

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Speaker 3: You out correct.

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Speaker 2: And you know what, at this point, I think that's

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Speaker 2: all his attorneys were trying to get. They were trying

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Speaker 2: to get another court hearing. They ultimately want a new

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Speaker 2: trial because without that evidence, it seems very unlikely that

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Speaker 2: he would be convicted of killing his two year old daughter,

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Speaker 2: then two year old daughter, And certainly there have been

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Speaker 2: so many people from John Grisham to Republican lawmakers in

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Speaker 2: the state of Texas along with their Democratic counterparts, all

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Speaker 2: rallying because they believe this man, Robert Robertson, is innocent,

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Speaker 2: and he has maintained his innocence from the very beginning.

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Speaker 2: There have been several complicating factors that led to his conviction.

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Speaker 2: All of them have been brought up, but it seems

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Speaker 2: like the most compelling one with the Court of Appeals

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Speaker 2: was this notion of a junk science being used to

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Speaker 2: convict them. Because there is a law on the books

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Speaker 2: in the state of Texas, its passed in twenty thirteen

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Speaker 2: that allows a person to challenge their conviction if the

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Speaker 2: science used to convict them has been discredited. That is

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Speaker 2: clearly applicable to this case.

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Speaker 1: That's the case. I mean, I don't that's not in

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Speaker 1: dispute by anybody at this point, right.

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Speaker 2: And Edi hadn't been able to get a new trial.

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Speaker 2: He hadn't been able to get this because the only way,

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Speaker 2: or the only reason why his scheduled execution was halted

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Speaker 2: last year is because the bipartisan legislature decided to call

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Speaker 2: him to testify. It was basically a maneuver to wait

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Speaker 2: out the execution Dayton. They asked for him to testify

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Speaker 2: what the week after his scheduled execution.

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Speaker 3: And so because they did that and he.

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Speaker 2: Never actually did testify, it pushed it to the next year.

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Speaker 1: So this guy, they kicked the can down the road

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Speaker 1: there in Texas. So we got to the end of

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Speaker 1: the road. Or at least it was supposed to be

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Speaker 1: next week, October sixteenth, lethal injection. It was planned, he

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Speaker 1: was supposed to die. Well, that's not going to happen

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Speaker 1: at least next week. We want to be clear here,

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Speaker 1: they're not saying he is coming off death roll. What

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Speaker 1: they're saying here, at least this Texas Court of Appeals

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Speaker 1: is that, hey, the lower court, the trial court, you

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Speaker 1: need to at least hear him out on his claims now.

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Speaker 1: Robe one of them has to do with the junk science.

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Speaker 1: The other one had to do with somebody else who

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Speaker 1: was also convicted under baby shaken baby syndrome. And that

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Speaker 1: person is out of prison now.

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Speaker 2: Yes, So the judge referenced this case of Andrew Rourke,

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Speaker 2: who was convicted back in two thousand of injury to

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Speaker 2: a child and based on shaking baby syndrome testimony. He

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Speaker 2: was sentenced to thirty five years in prison. He also

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Speaker 2: maintained his innocence from the beginning saying he never hit

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Speaker 2: or harmed his child. Last year, the court said, after

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Speaker 2: hearing all the new evidence and certainly looking at the

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Speaker 2: invalidity of the evidence presented in court at the time,

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Speaker 2: they said he likely would not have been convicted today.

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Speaker 2: So the appeals court sent his case back and the

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Speaker 2: DA decided to exonerate Andrew Rourke. And that is what

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Speaker 2: the judge cited when making the decision today about Robert Roberts.

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Speaker 1: Yah, they were throwing this name around. I wasn't I mean,

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Speaker 1: familiar with Andrew Rourke in that case necessarily, but they

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Speaker 1: were throwing it essentially saying, wait a minute, we want

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Speaker 1: that deal. That's all we're asking for. Do what you

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Speaker 1: did with him, which is take a look at this

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Speaker 1: junk science. The conclusion seems clear there nowes we have

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Speaker 1: to say, there are plenty of folks out there, and

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Speaker 1: including the family of the little girl, at least the moms.

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Speaker 3: Some of them, yes, are they know?

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Speaker 1: And there are some lawmakers, There are some still police,

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Speaker 1: There are some doctors would say, yeah, shaken baby syndrome

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Speaker 1: is a real thing, and this child in particular ropes.

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Speaker 1: I think it was the fact that little Nikki, to

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Speaker 1: your old Nikki had some blunt force trauma. Now, the

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Speaker 1: explanation was she had fallen out of the bed, but

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Speaker 1: they thought she had been beaten.

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Speaker 2: Yes, they said that they felt like because of the

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Speaker 2: trauma to the head, that she had been beaten or shaken.

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Speaker 2: But his story, Robertson's story has stayed true and the

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Speaker 2: same all these years, saying that she was ill. He

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Speaker 2: had been taking her to the hospital. She had severe

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Speaker 2: viral and bacterial pneumonia. She had been given drugs and

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Speaker 2: prescribed drugs by doctors that are now no longer allowed

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Speaker 2: to be prescribed to children because I believe it affects

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Speaker 2: their breathing, so it could stop your heart literally could

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Speaker 2: be a cause of death. And so you've got these medications,

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Speaker 2: you've got this severe viral and bacterial pnemonia, and this

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Speaker 2: was not a healthy child. She had been in and

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Speaker 2: out of the hospital for most of her little life,

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Speaker 2: and then she fell out of the bed. And that's

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Speaker 2: how he explains, or at least that's what he says happened,

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Speaker 2: and that would possibly be responsible for the blunt force

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Speaker 2: trauma that they see.

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Speaker 1: Like you said, he's maintained his story throughout, so it's

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Speaker 1: not just yes, they want the execution to stop, at

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Speaker 1: least he and his attorneys. But they are they absolutely

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Speaker 1: are proclaiming his innocence. This is a case that has

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Speaker 1: been going on. They want him out of prison, not

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Speaker 1: just off death row, and have maintained this for a

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Speaker 1: long time that this guy and the other factor here

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Speaker 1: right Robes, we discovered later.

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Speaker 2: That he is autistic, yes, and so that was part

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Speaker 2: of also the testimony used against him in his initial trial,

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Speaker 2: that he wasn't as emotional as you would expect a

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Speaker 2: father to be whose daughter was just pronounced dead. And

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Speaker 2: so that same detective who testified against him has now

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Speaker 2: come out very publicly and often saying he believes he's innocent,

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Speaker 2: that he was wrong, that he misinterpreted ert Robertson's lack

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Speaker 2: of empathy or lack of emotion and didn't realize that

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Speaker 2: there was actually a clinical diagnosis behind why he acted

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Speaker 2: and reacted the way he did.

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Speaker 1: That's incredible that something like that could factor into a

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Speaker 1: man possibly being put to death, Like, I'm just not

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Speaker 1: know who. I didn't know he was autistic. He just

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Speaker 1: his emotional reactions were enough to make somebody think he

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Speaker 1: was guilty. This case is incredibly fascinating, and we keep

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Speaker 1: learning more and more and more about it. Ropes. I'm

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Speaker 1: still as we go through. We've been talking about the

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Speaker 1: death penalty more and more here lately, and I can't

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Speaker 1: isn't this the proof that this man shouldn't be executed,

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Speaker 1: that everybody's fighting about it this much. Clearly we're not

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Speaker 1: one hundred percent sure, And I say we talking about

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Speaker 1: just as a society. Shouldn't that be enough to say

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Speaker 1: we're not in agreement. It has to be one hundred percent sure.

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Speaker 3: All of us. There's no taking it back.

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Speaker 2: There's no exonerating someone if you do it posthumously, that

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Speaker 2: the damage is done, there's no taking it back.

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Speaker 3: This is permanent.

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Speaker 2: This isn't like whoopsie, we put you in prison, which

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Speaker 2: is still significant. I mean, his attorneys point out that

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Speaker 2: he has spent the last twenty two years behind bars

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Speaker 2: for a crime he didn't commit, and they had said

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Speaker 2: that over and over again, and by the way, they

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Speaker 2: also pointed to this statistic just for some perspective. Since

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety two, at least forty parents and caregivers have

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Speaker 2: now been exonerated after they were convicted for wrongful shake

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Speaker 2: in baby syndrome. So this is not unusual. Since nineteen

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Speaker 2: ninety two, for over the past thirty years, forty parents

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Speaker 2: and caregivers have since been exonerated after they were already convicted.

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Speaker 1: His conviction was what year. I can't believe we don't

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Speaker 1: know this off the top of our heads, as much as.

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Speaker 2: We've been I thought it was two thousand and two.

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Speaker 1: That sounds right. Two thousand and two is when Nikki died. Yes,

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Speaker 1: So I mean this is right around that. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's it's in I just if we get away from

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Speaker 1: a moral question of the death penalty. And this is

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Speaker 1: not a matter of I believe we should have it or

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Speaker 1: I believe we shouldn't have it. We all agree that

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Speaker 1: we shouldn't put somebody to death that we are not

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Speaker 1: one hundred percent sure of the guilt, the guilt at least,

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Speaker 1: and it's just too much with this one Rogan. Some

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Speaker 1: I guess on one side, I might say, well, I

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Speaker 1: am one hundred percent sure, and the other side said,

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Speaker 1: well I am one hundred percent sure.

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Speaker 2: Two. But the question would be given the information we

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Speaker 2: know now that we didn't know what the time of

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Speaker 2: his trial, what a jury of his peers find him

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Speaker 2: guilty or innocent. And I think that's a fair question

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Speaker 2: to ask now twenty two years later, when we know more.

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Speaker 2: It's I mean, I know this is a really bad comparison,

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Speaker 2: but I think about college football, and you know, a

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Speaker 2: ref makes a call right there in the field. Why

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Speaker 2: wouldn't we want to go back now if we have

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Speaker 2: better information to actually see if the ball was out

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Speaker 2: of bounds. If we can do that and then have

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Speaker 2: a better clear understanding, and then the ref can make

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Speaker 2: a better choice based on better information, why wouldn't we

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Speaker 2: want that for somebody whose life is on the line.

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Speaker 1: Continuing with your football analogy, what if that play is

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Speaker 1: the game winning one, then the game's over after a

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Speaker 1: call we didn't review. This is what we're talking about,

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Speaker 1: just in life and death. Now we have to have

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Speaker 1: to be sure. Look, I'm glad no matter what, there

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Speaker 1: are people who absolutely believe this man is a monster

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Speaker 1: and he did something as heinous as it gets. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about a two year old child who had health problems,

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Speaker 1: and they believe this man beat his child to death.

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Speaker 1: And you have another side to this story, and then

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Speaker 1: you have science, and science was telling us Robes something

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Speaker 1: different today than it was telling us thirty years ago.

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Speaker 1: And I think the law says we're supposed to listen, right.

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Speaker 3: I believe that is what justice is.

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Speaker 2: It's not about defending the fact that you thought you

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Speaker 2: were right thirty years ago, but actually examining whether or

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Speaker 2: not you truly were.

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Speaker 3: That's justice.

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Speaker 1: And we're talking about where this case is now and

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Speaker 1: all these developments that took place today. The court has

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Speaker 1: stepped in and said, yes, we're going to stay the execution,

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Speaker 1: but we haven't even told you, at least in this

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Speaker 1: podcast about the other update. There was another huge development

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Speaker 1: in this case this week, a development we thought was

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Speaker 1: the one that might actually get him a stay of execution.

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Speaker 2: We continue our conversation now about this major development in

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Speaker 2: the case of fifty eight year old Robert Robertson. He

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Speaker 2: was convicted of murdering his two year old daughter, Nicki,

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Speaker 2: and the basis for that conviction was science that is

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Speaker 2: now considered junk science.

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Speaker 3: It's shaken baby syndrome.

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Speaker 2: And after years and years, more than a decade of trying,

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Speaker 2: his lawyers have finally gotten a stay of execution and

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Speaker 2: a request for there to be a court hearing on

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Speaker 2: this new evidence for there to be a reconsideration of

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Speaker 2: new medical information that has come to light concerning how

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Speaker 2: and why this man was convicted. And in this appeal,

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Speaker 2: this is really interesting, Robertson's lawyers included along with that

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Speaker 2: new scientific information that we now know, they actually say

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Speaker 2: ten independent pathologists looked at that original medical examiner's autopsy

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Speaker 2: of little Nikki and they concluded that Nicki died. The

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Speaker 2: coroner's report that Nicki died from those blunt force head injuries,

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Speaker 2: which is really what got him convicted, were not reliable.

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Speaker 2: So ten independent pathologists. So the defense really put on

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Speaker 2: an incredible, I don't want to say show, but just

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Speaker 2: really produced a significant amount of evidence enough to sway

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Speaker 2: this judge for the first time in a long time.

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Speaker 1: And look, the other side will give you their witnesses

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Speaker 1: and they're experts, and you're supposed to work all that

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Speaker 1: out in court and let a jury decide. But again

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Speaker 1: the point here being, the jury didn't get to hear

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Speaker 1: some of the stuff we know not we know, yes,

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Speaker 1: we just we know more.

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Speaker 2: And there's something else the jury didn't get to hear,

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Speaker 2: and it's something that actually was made or I guess

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Speaker 2: there was some light shed on it in a podcast

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Speaker 2: just a few days ago of Dayline podcast where we

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Speaker 2: heard from for the first time Nicky's maternal grandfather, who

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Speaker 2: told NBC's Lester Holds something we had not yet hurt.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we thought this was the thing, right there was

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Speaker 1: He's got so much Robert Robertson, so many motions out

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Speaker 1: there trying to get the execution stopped, and we thought, Okay,

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Speaker 1: he's running out of options. Next week is going to

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Speaker 1: be it. And then this dateline thing comes up where

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Speaker 1: the grandfather on the little baby Nicky's on the mom's side,

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Speaker 1: said that he got a call when Nicky was in

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Speaker 1: the hospital that a judge called that hospital and told

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Speaker 1: them that the grandparents were actually the parents and that

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Speaker 1: the grandparents had the right to make the call to

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Speaker 1: take the child off life support, and they did do so.

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Speaker 1: That same judge ends up signing the arrestaurant for Robert Robertson.

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Speaker 1: That same judge ends up being the judge in his trial. Now,

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Speaker 1: as you're hearing those facts laid out, you might go,

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Speaker 1: wait a minute, that doesn't sound right, well, because it's not.

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Speaker 1: First of all, only Bert Roberson had the right to

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Speaker 1: make that call.

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Speaker 2: About that child, yes, and then so beyond that, it

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Speaker 2: just screams of judicial misconduct. You know, this is somebody

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Speaker 2: who clearly was overly involved from the actual decision regarding

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Speaker 2: her death to who to arrest and then presiding over

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Speaker 2: and you know, a judge again to make another sports reference.

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Speaker 3: But much like a.

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Speaker 2: Referee can absolutely sway, a jury can absolutely have an

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Speaker 2: impact or an influence over how certain evidence is allowed,

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Speaker 2: how it's received, how it's perceived that Durer instructions. There

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Speaker 2: is so much influence that these judges have over these trials,

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Speaker 2: So how could that possibly not be misconduct?

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Speaker 1: I was shocked to hear. I mean, you just go

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Speaker 1: to the I mean again, she was on life support,

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Speaker 1: so we have to assume they didn't think she was

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Speaker 1: going to do well, or maybe she wasn't going to

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Speaker 1: make it. But still someone made the call about the

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Speaker 1: life and death of his child and he didn't get

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Speaker 1: to that right there strips wrights away from him, and

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Speaker 1: he has a case and a cause there it's just

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Speaker 1: too much. We're overwhelmed now with information of what the

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Speaker 1: hell and we can't trust that, but that expert trust

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Speaker 1: that it's too much just I know they've got to

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Speaker 1: go through the legal process. But this seems don't you

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Speaker 1: think Rope's going in the direction even if it's not

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Speaker 1: an exoneration, they got to get him off.

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Speaker 3: It feels like that's where it's headed.

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Speaker 2: And we actually, I mean, I again am no legal expert,

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Speaker 2: but just having covered it the way we have, I

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Speaker 2: am certainly hopeful that that is the outcome.

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Speaker 3: And to know that.

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Speaker 2: Ultra conservative Republican lawmakers from Texas who are very pro

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Speaker 2: death penalty all joined forces with Democrats in that state

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Speaker 2: after reviewing all of the evidence and the things that

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Speaker 2: we are now explaining to you here, that they all

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Speaker 2: were on board with getting him and actually creating a

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Speaker 2: political stunt to make sure he wasn't executed. With the

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Speaker 2: little power that they had over the situation, I think

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Speaker 2: speaks of volumes.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I'm smiling. You said they pulled off a political stunt.

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Speaker 1: It was a bipartisan which is so rare. The last

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Speaker 1: one there was one side. We're talking about Texas Republicans

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Speaker 1: and Democrats working together. That should be enough great execution

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Speaker 1: that Texas Republicans are working with their Democratic counter of

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Speaker 1: arts to save a man's life who's on death row. Idea.

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Speaker 3: That is all.

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Speaker 2: Well, that's most of the proof that I need at

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Speaker 2: this point. But again, certainly some news of relief for

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Speaker 2: Robertson and his supporters, and I know some frustration for

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Speaker 2: folks who think that this is exactly what should have happened,

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Speaker 2: and they're frustrated by our very lengthy process to actually

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Speaker 2: go through an execution, but certainly one that has to

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Speaker 2: be the case because of something very much like this.

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Speaker 2: We have to be sure and if we can't be sure, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I think that is just what most people who look

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Speaker 2: at this case, even if they are pro death penalty,

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Speaker 2: this is a this is a very specific situation. So

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Speaker 2: we will continue to follow any new developments bring you

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Speaker 2: the very latest. Thank you as always for listening to us.

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Speaker 3: I made me wrote back alongside T. J.

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Speaker 2: Holmes.

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Speaker 3: We'll talk to you soon.

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Speaker 2: M