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Speaker 1: Body bags with Joseph Scott Morgan years ago, when I

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Speaker 1: was working as an investigator. Every death that occurred, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'd like to say that each death is unique, and

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Speaker 1: they are. But when you're in the middle of conducting

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Speaker 1: an investigation into an obvious homicide and a pattern begins

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Speaker 1: to appear in other cases, there's this little thing that

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Speaker 1: occurs in your brain. And I used to think that

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Speaker 1: I would get distracted from other cases that did not

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Speaker 1: have the same patterns because you get I don't know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's almost like a in a hyper state of awareness,

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Speaker 1: I think, because you know, you see, you know, investigators

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Speaker 1: are no different than anybody else. You know, you begin

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Speaker 1: to see the Boogeyman everywhere you go. But the hardcore

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Speaker 1: reality is is that the boogeyman does exist. And today

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Speaker 1: I want to speak to a particular case of a teenager,

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Speaker 1: a teen girl who died many, many years ago, but

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Speaker 1: yet her death was shrouded in mystery for a long time,

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Speaker 1: and I think that it's important that we discuss it

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Speaker 1: because she fell victim to a boogeyman. She fell victim

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Speaker 1: to Gary Ridgeway, otherwise known as a Green River killer.

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Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags. I think

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Speaker 1: that Dave, you and I kind of came to maturity

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Speaker 1: as young adults.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Joe, stop before you guys get worried that this

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Speaker 2: is going to be some kind of summer of forty

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Speaker 2: two boys becoming men show.

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Speaker 3: It's not.

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Speaker 2: This show today is about Tammy Lyles directly and indirectly.

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Speaker 2: Tammy Lyles was only sixteen years old when she was

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Speaker 2: murdered by Gary Ridgway, known to many as the Green

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Speaker 2: River serial killer. Gary Ridgway killed forty nine women and girls.

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Speaker 2: Tammy Lyles was just sixteen when she met Gary Ridgeway

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Speaker 2: and he killed her. It took years for her for

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Speaker 2: her to be identified, for her family to know for

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Speaker 2: sure this was our Tammy. As a matter of fact,

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Speaker 2: for a year she was called bones twenty. But it

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Speaker 2: took the people at Authorm Labs and the work they

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Speaker 2: do that goes beyond the pail.

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Speaker 3: It's just as.

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Speaker 2: Fascinating, incredible work. And I think about every time they

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Speaker 2: solve a case genetically using genetic genealogy, it's another family

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Speaker 2: that now has peace and comfort. Joe and I both

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Speaker 2: don't like to say closure, but peace and comfort. Knowing

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Speaker 2: knowing that's the key. So I wanted to make sure

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Speaker 2: y'all know that's what we're talking about today. Green River,

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Speaker 2: Sarah Killer Authoram Labs, and sixteen year old Tammy Lyles. Now, Joe,

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Speaker 2: let's go back to the summer of forty two.

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Speaker 1: I'm speaking to myself. I can't speak to you.

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Speaker 2: We're the same, We heard the same agent of parallel

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Speaker 2: existences in our private lives before we ever met one another.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right, it's weird how people get connected that way.

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Speaker 1: But we came of age. I think at at an

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Speaker 1: interesting time, particularly from a crime history perspective, because it

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Speaker 1: seems as though that the world that we that we

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Speaker 1: inhabited back then, serial killers were talked about. They seemed

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Speaker 1: to be. I know that they talk about him now

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Speaker 1: in true crime world, but back then, you know, I

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Speaker 1: can reflect back and think about all these serial perpetrators

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Speaker 1: that were out there when I was a young guy,

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Speaker 1: and they were it seems like that they were everywhere.

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Speaker 2: Because of Ted Bundy more than anything else. Ted Bundy

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Speaker 2: because he was that, he was attractive, he had been big,

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Speaker 2: and you know, they they talked about him being very

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Speaker 2: big in Washington State politics. He really wasn't, but because

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Speaker 2: his story was so remarkable and and rule writing the

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Speaker 2: book The Stranger Beside Me actually illuminated this whole world

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Speaker 2: of the good looking guy that you would be happy

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Speaker 2: for your daughter to date is actually killing women who

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Speaker 2: looked like his first real love. But then we had

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Speaker 2: in the seventies, we had his escape from jail twice

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Speaker 2: if you remember, oh yeah, that was the two you know,

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Speaker 2: run Ted run kind of stuff, a run Bundy run,

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Speaker 2: whatever it was. We had that all over the press.

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Speaker 2: And then in the eighties we had all of the

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Speaker 2: other things. We had the Green River killer in the

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Speaker 2: news because they labeled.

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Speaker 3: It that way.

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Speaker 2: But in the meantime, we had Ted Bundy reaching out

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Speaker 2: to the press because he was on death row and

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Speaker 2: they kept trying to kill him and he kept trying

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Speaker 2: to fight it off. And so every time a serial

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Speaker 2: killer started being covered in the press, Ted Bundy got

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Speaker 2: his wheels in motion to get the press back on him.

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Speaker 3: It was amazing. Yeah, it really was in a bad way.

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Speaker 1: Amazing Yeah yeah, no, no, really in a reality in

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Speaker 1: a realistic way, because I think that you know, it

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Speaker 1: goes to people throw around the term of narcissism all

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Speaker 1: the time nowadays, and it's certainly I think that it

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Speaker 1: is very uh it's it is symptomatic of narcissism relative

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Speaker 1: to him and he you know, he uh he he

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Speaker 1: would draw the spotlight back to him. And I think

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Speaker 1: back we had Richard Maris. Wow, we had the hillside

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Speaker 1: strang GluRs. It's not stranged GluR.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 1: For a while it was singular, but then you've got

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Speaker 1: this team of guys. And then going back even further

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Speaker 1: than that, you know, you you had uh yeah, Tate

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Speaker 1: lot Bianca. But I was thinking about uh uh he

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Speaker 1: refused to be called Otis but ottis Tool and uh

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Speaker 1: that Wascas and they worked in tandem. And actually I

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Speaker 1: had I didn't have direct contact with with Ottis O

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Speaker 1: t I s. He preferred to be called by that,

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Speaker 1: but Otis uh otis tool. They worked in hand them.

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Speaker 1: If you've ever seen Henry Portrait of serial Killer, very

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Speaker 1: disturbing film, but that you know, those two worked in

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Speaker 1: Interestingly enough, when I was with a corner in New Orleans,

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Speaker 1: they brought Oddis Tool to my jurisdiction. And one of

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Speaker 1: the little traps that a lot of investigators would fall

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Speaker 1: into back then was the fact that these guys would

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Speaker 1: be cool on their heels in jail. I think Ottis

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Speaker 1: was in Florida Penitentiary at that point in time, and

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Speaker 1: they brought him to New Orleans because he claimed that

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Speaker 1: he could tell tell authorities where bodies were, and you know,

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Speaker 1: he kind of made the rounds relative to that. And

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Speaker 1: with Ridgeway, there's an element of that with Ridgeway, Gary

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Speaker 1: Ridgeway the Green River Killer, because he took he took

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Speaker 1: the authorities out to a variety of sites and he

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Speaker 1: had a huge body count. I think that some people,

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Speaker 1: you know, believe that that he was really responsible for

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Speaker 1: far more than he had claimed. And I don't know

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Speaker 1: if that if that goes to his he's trying to,

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Speaker 1: you know, bait the authorities with with that or if

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Speaker 1: it's if it's reality. You never can tell because it's

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Speaker 1: such a deceptive game that they play, you know. But

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Speaker 1: for me, what's really cool, Dave, is that I had

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna say it was life changing, but I

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Speaker 1: had a real peak behind the curtain a couple of

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Speaker 1: weeks ago, and I got to go to Authorm Labs

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Speaker 1: down in the woodlands outside of Houston, Houston, Texas, and

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Speaker 1: they have a direct bearing on the case we're going

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Speaker 1: to talk talk about today and the work that they're

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Speaker 1: doing in forensic genetic genealogy, and so I think that

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Speaker 1: it's important that we try to understand our victim today

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Speaker 1: that we're gonna talk about, Sami Lawles, and she's what

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Speaker 1: they believe is the youngest victim of the Green rip

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Speaker 1: killer and AUTHORN played a big role in this day.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's amazing that for those of us who

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Speaker 2: watched the trial of the century, maybe one of the

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Speaker 2: last trials of the century for the nineteen hundreds was

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Speaker 2: the O. J. Simpson trial, where we heard a lot

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Speaker 2: about DNA for the first time for many of us

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Speaker 2: as observers of crime related stuff, that story was all

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Speaker 2: about DNA, it seemed at the end. And I think

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Speaker 2: there's a whole lot more that could be told. But

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Speaker 2: the bottom line here is that because of so many

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Speaker 2: of us knowing about DNA because of the oj trial

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Speaker 2: and what has happened since then, I think it's important

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Speaker 2: for people to understand to know that AUTHORM they're not

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Speaker 2: some heavily funded government entity that's got a staff of

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Speaker 2: you know, with billions of dollars pouring in. They it's

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Speaker 2: amazing to me, and we'll cover this more to what

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Speaker 2: they but they actually have to crowd fund to do

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Speaker 2: stories like if you have a loved one that was

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Speaker 2: murdered and you're trying to solve it has been years

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Speaker 2: and years and years, and you know, there's no statute

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Speaker 2: of limitations on murder and the only evidence you have

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Speaker 2: is this sample of DNA and you've they've been able

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Speaker 2: to do nothing with it, and it's twenty years later.

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Speaker 2: Authorn can do something with it.

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Speaker 1: They can try, Yeah, they can, and it kind of

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Speaker 1: bifurcates in the sense of how it's utilized. I got

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Speaker 1: to meet and spend time with David Mettleman, who is

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Speaker 1: the director and CEO, and his brilliant wife, Kristin Mittleman,

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Speaker 1: and they've run this thing and created something essentially from

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Speaker 1: the ground up.

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Speaker 3: And wow, I didn't know that.

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Speaker 2: Actually, yeah, there's going to have to be a movie

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Speaker 2: on this, you know, Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think that it would be perfect and they're fantastic.

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Speaker 1: And David, if you ever enter, and I know that

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Speaker 1: a lot of people may be in can state this,

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Speaker 1: if you've never been a around a true savant somebody

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Speaker 1: that if you're around them, their intellect seems to be

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Speaker 1: off the scale. I'd say that David fits within that category.

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Speaker 1: He is brilliant. But you know, the thing about it

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Speaker 1: is is that his brilliance doesn't stifle his compassion. And

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Speaker 1: it's one thing, you know, it's one thing to say

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Speaker 1: we can sit around all day long and say how

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Speaker 1: compassionate we are, but you know you and I believe

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Speaker 1: that you're You know that your abilities are proven through

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Speaker 1: your actions, and you know, put the words into motion,

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Speaker 1: put those you know what, otherwise would just be worthless platitudes.

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Speaker 1: His goal, which is fascinating to me, is not only

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Speaker 1: to help solve crimes, which is part of it. That's

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Speaker 1: why this is a bifurcated discussion. Is to solve help

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Speaker 1: solve crimes, to bring people, to hold people responsible for

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Speaker 1: these horrible things that they've done. But also the other

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Speaker 1: part that he's engaged in is trying to get the

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Speaker 1: thousands and thousands and thousands of bodies that are out

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Speaker 1: there identified and to help families know that have been

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Speaker 1: missing loved ones, that there is always an empty chair

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Speaker 1: at Christmas time or Thanksgiving or whatever holiday they celebrate,

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Speaker 1: and you never know what had happened to those individuals.

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Speaker 1: And you know, Dave, I got to tell you. I

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Speaker 1: was having a conversation with David Meddleman and we were

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Speaker 1: standing out on this sun drenched porch in the Texas heat,

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Speaker 1: and he looked at me and he said, you know,

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Speaker 1: my goal is to get the database for name US,

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Speaker 1: which is the database for all of the unidentified bodies

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Speaker 1: that we have that are out there. My goal and

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Speaker 1: should be the goal of everyone, to clear that database

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Speaker 1: out and get everybody known to the world once again,

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Speaker 1: sixteen years old. No, you're not an adult in it,

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Speaker 1: but you know, sometimes dependent upon the circumstances that a

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Speaker 1: sixteen year old is in, they have to face horrors

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Speaker 1: that you would think would otherwise only be reserved for adults.

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Speaker 1: And of course, in the case that we're speaking of

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Speaker 1: today with Tammy Lyles, she faced that horror. She faced

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Speaker 1: this devil, this book man and Gary Ridgeway, and it's

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Speaker 1: still amazing that first off, that they were ever even

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Speaker 1: able to get her identified.

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Speaker 2: David, the entire spectrum of the Green River Killer covers

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Speaker 2: so many years, so much investigation, so much press. This

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Speaker 2: was not something that was just discovered one day and

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Speaker 2: they researched it back as a history lesson. This was

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Speaker 2: ongoing in the moment coverage of what was happening with

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Speaker 2: these women who were being killed. And Gary Ridgeway, he

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Speaker 2: was actually on the police radar early on, but just

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Speaker 2: kept on truck and they never had enough to really

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Speaker 2: do anything with him, but he was somebody they considered

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Speaker 2: up there as we look at Tammy Lyles when her

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Speaker 2: bones were I apologize if you're if you are one

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Speaker 2: of tam these relatives or somebody that knew her as

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Speaker 2: a living individual. This is no disrespect, it's but to

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Speaker 2: be truthful, we have to describe what was found, when

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Speaker 2: it was found, where it was found, how it was

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Speaker 2: And I'm so sorry. If this was my love, no,

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Speaker 2: I don't know how I would feel about this. But

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Speaker 2: in this case, she was finally identified. She was not

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Speaker 2: identified for a long time. And that's why I have

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Speaker 2: a question for you about that, Joe, because they had

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Speaker 2: labeled her as the Green River serial killer's final victim

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Speaker 2: identified sixteen year old Tammy Lyles at the age of sixteen.

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Speaker 3: She was murdered.

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Speaker 2: Her remains were known as bones twenty. Didn't they have

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Speaker 2: an identity. Didn't they know who she was before they

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Speaker 2: used DNA to confirm what they thought?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they had gotten an ID on her years after

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Speaker 1: she had gone missing, and her remains had been recovered. Okay,

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Speaker 1: there was kind of a partial skeletal remain that was

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Speaker 1: found of her, which is not uncommon. You know, when,

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Speaker 1: particularly when you have what referred to as surface remains,

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Speaker 1: those remains that are not buried, you're very fortunate, You're

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Speaker 1: very fortunate to find anything at all. In her case,

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Speaker 1: they did, and I think that that task was achieved

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Speaker 1: through dental examination.

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Speaker 2: Okay, because Tammy Lyles's body was found bones called Bones twenty.

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Speaker 2: She had been last seen in downtown Seattle, Washington, June

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Speaker 2: of eighty three, at the age of sixteen. She was

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Speaker 2: one of two unidentified women whose remains were found near Tiggard, Oregon,

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Speaker 2: nineteen eighty five, two years after she went After she

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Speaker 2: vanished from downtown Seattle, her remains found near Tiggered, Oregon.

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Speaker 2: She had been considered one of Bridgeway's potential victims since

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Speaker 2: way back, I like ninety eight or eighty eight. Rather, so,

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Speaker 2: she goes missing in eighty three, her bones are recovered

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Speaker 2: in eighty five, and by eighty eight they did consider

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Speaker 2: her part of the Green River killer victims. And that's

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Speaker 2: why I was curious about the identification. It was an

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Speaker 2: incomplete set of bones and teeth that were just and

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Speaker 2: if I get some of these confused too, and I

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Speaker 2: am so sorry, but you know, there was one of

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Speaker 2: the stories that I remember Joe where they were at

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Speaker 2: a ball field and a dog came running up to

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Speaker 2: the coach who was working on the field and had

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Speaker 2: a leg bone in his mouth.

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Speaker 3: And can you imagine what that would be like?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and for our listeners.

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Speaker 3: Oh, that's not Tammy by the way.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, that's not that's not Tammy. But

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Speaker 1: when you have when you have canones that are running, uh,

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Speaker 1: running a field if you will. Uh, there are a

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Speaker 1: number of cases. Uh. And for some reason, dogs are

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Speaker 1: attracted to skulls as well. It's almost like they're you know,

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Speaker 1: commonly you think about dogs having long bones. They're laying

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Speaker 1: in shade, maybe they're chewing on a long bone of

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Speaker 1: some kind. Generally you don't expect that to be a

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Speaker 1: human bone. But uh, I can think of two cases

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Speaker 1: right off the top of my head where I had

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Speaker 1: dogs that walked up in the yard of some unsuspecting

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Speaker 1: person's home with a skull uh, And they treat them

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Speaker 1: almost like balls many times, and they'll have them poised

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Speaker 1: between their paws like this, and they'll you know, they'll

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Speaker 1: they'll be chewing uh and working on those bones the

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Speaker 1: entire time. And they, you know, canines seem to find

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Speaker 1: find this, find great joy in doing this, and so

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Speaker 1: it's not unusual for an animal to come walking up

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Speaker 1: with a bone.

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Speaker 2: If I could have answered a question for a million dollars,

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Speaker 2: I never would have guessed that a dog would be

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Speaker 2: fascinated with the head.

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Speaker 3: I never would all about that.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's like that. I think that it's if

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Speaker 1: anyone has ever seen a dog with a ball between

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Speaker 1: their paws kind of playing in the backyard with it,

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Speaker 1: it's you know, it's kind of like that, only they

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Speaker 1: see it as a source of protein. That's, you know,

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Speaker 1: just like we're no different, you know, our bodies are

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Speaker 1: no different after death like that. That. Wow, that's one

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Speaker 1: of the things that attracts and so you never know.

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Speaker 1: And here's the other thing is that if you if

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Speaker 1: you have a skeletal remain and the dog grabs a

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Speaker 1: skelter remain brings in one element of it, you don't

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Speaker 1: know where that originated from. And so with Ridgeway, Gary

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Speaker 1: Ridgeway and all of these victims, including Tammy Lyles, he

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Speaker 1: perpetrated these crimes so that he had the he remained

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Speaker 1: spread out in let's see how the distribution of the

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Speaker 1: remains was all over King County, and so you didn't

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Speaker 1: always know. He didn't have like a specific location he

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Speaker 1: would go to, but he would do particular things with

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Speaker 1: the bodies, some of them that they could still appreciate.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes he'd lined bodies up, he'd go to these particular

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Speaker 1: areas where he was just kind of keeping them. And

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Speaker 1: so they've got these almost like commingaled remains. They even

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Speaker 1: put forth the idea that he's posing some of these

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Speaker 1: bodies after death and the fact that he would do this.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing about Ridgeway is that he's not

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Speaker 1: one of these brilliant guys. He doesn't have like an

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Speaker 1: IQ that's off the chart. He was just singularly focused

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Speaker 1: on what he was doing and he you know, he

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Speaker 1: worked for years and years and this plays into the

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Speaker 1: story as well. He worked for years and years as

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Speaker 1: a not just a car painter or an automotive painter,

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Speaker 1: but a painter of trucks specifically, like you know, big

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Speaker 1: Peter Bilts and Mac trucks. That's what he did, and

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Speaker 1: he maintained that job all of these years while still

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Speaker 1: going out and perpetrating these crops, which is fascinating as

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Speaker 1: far as I'm concerned, he was just singularly focused on

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Speaker 1: this obsession that he had with killing prostitutes and then

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Speaker 1: disregarding their remains.

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Speaker 2: It's still amazing to me that he was. Gary Ridgeway

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Speaker 2: was a suspect early on, from at least eighty seven,

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Speaker 2: and that's when we publicly knew about him in terms

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Speaker 2: of the investigation. But they suspected him. As you mentioned,

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Speaker 2: he was not as clever or as intelligent as some

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Speaker 2: others that we have dealt with, but still he got

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Speaker 2: away with it for a whole lot longer than many

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Speaker 2: of them ever did. And the damage he did to families.

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Speaker 2: I think of the how one person can effect. One

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Speaker 2: person's death affects so many people. Now you're talking fifty

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Speaker 2: you know, you're talking a lot of extended people directly

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Speaker 2: and indirectly affected by what this one person did. And

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Speaker 2: that's what I think is the most shocking to talk

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Speaker 2: about people in bones and things like that. When you

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Speaker 2: had a girl at sixteen years old, his youngest victim

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Speaker 2: was fourteen, or the youngest one we know about was fourteen,

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Speaker 2: but you know still Tammy Lyles was sixteen years old.

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Speaker 2: Her bones helped identify who she was with the as

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Speaker 2: you mentioned the teeth, using those as identity, but they

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Speaker 2: weren't actually able to get the whole picture pulled together

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Speaker 2: on on Tammy Lyles until they were able to get

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Speaker 2: the DNA tested. And when you start with so little evidence, Joe,

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Speaker 2: and you don't have soft tissue, you don't have anything

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Speaker 2: except the bones, what do you do as an investigator

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Speaker 2: to try to find out who this person is and

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Speaker 2: how they ended up where they are when they are discovered.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's a lot of that is going to

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Speaker 1: rest heavily upon. First off, your first stop along the

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Speaker 1: continuum here is anthropology. I would imagine that many of

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Speaker 1: our friends have all heard of the body Farm. That's

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons the Body Farm does the research

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Speaker 1: that they do, because you're dealing with decomposing skeletal remains,

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Speaker 1: and you have to be able to these people that

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Speaker 1: go out and practice as anthropologists. They can't put most

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Speaker 1: of the time a real fine point on identification, so

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Speaker 1: they're looking in very broad ways at the bones that

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Speaker 1: they have. You know, they'll try to categorize the bones

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Speaker 1: by virtue of race and that you really need a

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Speaker 1: skull for that, and of course in many of these

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Speaker 1: cases you're not going to have skull. And then you

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Speaker 1: try to do stature, and there's a metric that you

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Speaker 1: can apply relative to like bone link, Like if you're

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Speaker 1: going to measure, say the length of the thigh bone,

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Speaker 1: it's going to fit into a particular category as to

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Speaker 1: what the height, the approximating height of this individual will be.

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Speaker 1: But then you have to determine if the thigh bone

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Speaker 1: that you're looking at is either male or female or

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Speaker 1: is it from a racial grouping that would have more

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Speaker 1: what to refer to. And this is a weird word

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Speaker 1: grassile bones, which grass ale means fine kind of fine

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Speaker 1: featured where if you had, say an Asian person that

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Speaker 1: you found and it could be an adult male, their

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Speaker 1: bones might not be as big and robust as some

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Speaker 1: big European origin guy like me, and so you can't

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Speaker 1: Sometimes you'll get the sexing of the bones. As I say,

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Speaker 1: you'll get those confused. You'll get racial characteristics confused with

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Speaker 1: skulls because the facial characteristics. You know, sometimes we're commingled,

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Speaker 1: our genetics are commingled. Now it's not. You don't have

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Speaker 1: these clear lines of delineation. So what are you left

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Speaker 1: with at that point?

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Speaker 3: Toime?

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Speaker 1: Well, fortunately the world that we live in today has

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Speaker 1: brought about the idea of who are we? Who are

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Speaker 1: we at our molecular core? And to our benefit, you

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Speaker 1: have groups of people like authorm that are answering some

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Speaker 1: of these long, long unanswered questions. The big question is

396
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Speaker 1: what are you left with? You know, you start off,

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Speaker 1: I think, with an incomplete skeleton, and as horrible as

398
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Speaker 1: it is, the only name that you have is bones

399
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Speaker 1: twenty and you suspect that it could be one individual

400
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Speaker 1: in particular based upon dental id but you need to

401
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Speaker 1: confirm that. You need to confirm that for the sake

402
00:26:27,080 --> 00:26:30,720
Speaker 1: of the family. And you, like you said, Dave, you

403
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:35,040
Speaker 1: don't have soft tissue. So where are you going to go? Well,

404
00:26:35,080 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: you're going to take bone sample. And in Tammy Lyles case,

405
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Speaker 1: that bone sample actually made it to Texas. But the

406
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Speaker 1: first stop in Texas was not Authorm Labs. It's another

407
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Speaker 1: great lab that's housed at the University of North Texas.

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Speaker 1: And as a matter of fact, I've got a real

409
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Speaker 1: good buddy of mine that just retired from there, and

410
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Speaker 1: they do some of the most marvelous work in DNA identification.

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Speaker 1: But when they played that out to the end, they

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Speaker 1: were left scratching their head thinking, we can't take this

413
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Speaker 1: any further. We need to see who else we can

414
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Speaker 1: source this to. And of course that's when Authorm appears,

415
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,000
Speaker 1: appears on the radar and they come in to kind

416
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Speaker 1: of complete this job.

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Speaker 2: Now when we're talking about Authorm and beyond, because there

418
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:32,399
Speaker 2: is breaking down the DNA and having that map, but

419
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,040
Speaker 2: to find out who this person is and who they

420
00:27:36,080 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 2: are tied to is a totally different It's an extension

421
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 2: of the DNA exercise because now you've got to do

422
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 2: the genetic genealogy. You have to build a family tree.

423
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Speaker 2: So here is our victim, and we've got that victim. Boy,

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Speaker 2: we got everything right here, but we have to find

425
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:58,840
Speaker 2: out other things. Who's related to this victim? There's other

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00:27:58,880 --> 00:27:59,920
Speaker 2: people at least too.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a fascinating thing. In my recent visit

428
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Speaker 1: to Athram that I was shocked by. You go into

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Speaker 1: one one section of this of their facility, which is amazing,

430
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Speaker 1: and you've got this very clinical environment where everything is

431
00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:20,480
Speaker 1: sealed off. People are on the literally on the other

432
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Speaker 1: side of the glass and wearing protective clothing, right, and

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Speaker 1: they can only work for about forty five minutes at

434
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 1: a time when they have to step out because it's

435
00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 1: such labor intensive work and you don't want your people

436
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:37,960
Speaker 1: to be distracted because of fatigue, so they have to

437
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: take a break like every forty five minutes.

438
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 2: So there's such a powerful thing on the brain. It

439
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:47,240
Speaker 2: is taxing your brain so much that they know after

440
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 2: forty five minutes you're no longer at the top of

441
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 2: your game.

442
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 3: It has eaten that much. Take a break.

443
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:57,440
Speaker 1: That's remarkable, Yeah, it is, and it's the facility itself

444
00:28:57,560 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 1: is really something to see from that perspect but also

445
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: that awareness. So if you have a case like Tammy's

446
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 1: case that comes in and you're trying to adjust yourself

447
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 1: to be so laser focused in your assessments of what

448
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,560
Speaker 1: you have before you. Here's the really sad thing is

449
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: that if this is a criminal case, defense attorneys will

450
00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: pick at that pick at, well, how many other cases

451
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:25,360
Speaker 1: if they're talking to the technician, how many other cases

452
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,800
Speaker 1: have you been working? How much time? Where do you

453
00:29:27,840 --> 00:29:29,719
Speaker 1: think you were too tired to be doing this? And

454
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. They understand that concept. But here's

455
00:29:33,080 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: the other part. They don't just have a scientific section,

456
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: the genetics section. They've also got a genealogical section, which

457
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 1: is when you begin to think about this in the

458
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,360
Speaker 1: world that I come from, which is, you know, morgues

459
00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 1: and crime labs and all that stuff you don't think about. Well,

460
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: we've got a whole staff a genealogist here that they

461
00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 1: can confer with begin to kind of work out this

462
00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: big puzzle about who is this individual? And right you were,

463
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 1: you know, when you were discussing how do you tie

464
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: this back to a particular particular familial group, if you will,

465
00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: and that is you look for these peripheral individuals that

466
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 1: are out there within the family tree. So you're talking

467
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:30,160
Speaker 1: about cousins most of the time and several times removed.

468
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:33,520
Speaker 1: And then they begin to kind of bring that in

469
00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: and tighten the focus on all of these cases. And Tammy,

470
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: of course, is representative of that, and you want to

471
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: be sure you want to be sure about these cases.

472
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 1: And so for Tammy Lyles, which please keep in mind,

473
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 1: if people are thinking, well, how did she die, there's

474
00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: no way to determine how many of these people die

475
00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 1: because when you get to the state where you're in

476
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: a skelton On state, any of the soft tissue that

477
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 1: you would be looking for for focal areas of hemorrhage

478
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,240
Speaker 1: in the neck, or you're looking for, you know, the

479
00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 1: fractured hyoid as they always talk about, or you're looking

480
00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,400
Speaker 1: for trauma to the skull. Meantime, you're not going to

481
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 1: have that. And so it's it's an idea of of

482
00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 1: essentially a presumptive event where you're you're presuming that this

483
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:36,240
Speaker 1: individual died at the hands of someone like Gary Ridgeway

484
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 1: because it fit the mo of what he had done

485
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,360
Speaker 1: in the past and she fits into a particular grouping.

486
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: But Authorm's role in this is I think that it's

487
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 1: it is first off, it's the ultimate and compassion, but

488
00:31:52,280 --> 00:31:55,640
Speaker 1: also it's it is from this particular case in the

489
00:31:55,720 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 1: series of homicides that Gary Ridgeway was involved. Then it

490
00:32:02,440 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: is the ultimate act of compassion as well, because finally

491
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: the family can move on from that point, I never

492
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,720
Speaker 1: use the word closure because I think that that's it's

493
00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:19,360
Speaker 1: a horrible term to use because families. You're diminishing the

494
00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 1: grief of families by saying that families never get closure

495
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: from homicides. You can forget that. Please don't say that

496
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,080
Speaker 1: to people. I guess you have closure, now, No, they don't.

497
00:32:28,160 --> 00:32:32,600
Speaker 1: People don't get closure. It's such a weird term. And

498
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: for those of us that work as death investigators, families

499
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,040
Speaker 1: don't get closure, they might achieve certain levels of peace.

500
00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: I don't know. I can't speak to anybody's individual experiences,

501
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: but the one piece to this is that from a

502
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:54,040
Speaker 1: confirmatory stint, Authorm offers that and it's a little slice

503
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:57,280
Speaker 1: of peace perhaps for them. And that's what they've done

504
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 1: in tammy Law's case.

505
00:32:58,400 --> 00:32:59,640
Speaker 3: Dave, Well, you.

506
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 2: Know with Authorm and you have like math on one

507
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 2: side and the theater arts to people on the other.

508
00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 2: Because to pull all this together to actually get answers

509
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 2: to questions and solving crimes, this is really an amazing

510
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 2: world of technology because it does require some out of

511
00:33:17,520 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 2: the box thinking. Besides the math. We have the math,

512
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,320
Speaker 2: but we've got to find the rest. And that's why

513
00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 2: authoram is so important to what's being done. And I

514
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 2: want to go back to this idea that they are

515
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 2: crowd funded when police send. You know, oftentimes our law

516
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 2: enforcement agencies are underfunded, especially when it comes to investigations

517
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 2: in what are considered cold cases. Now, because of the

518
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 2: strides that have been made, many departments have a cold

519
00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 2: case unit and they're breaking crimes. They're actually solving crimes

520
00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 2: that have been dormant for many, many years, but now

521
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:57,200
Speaker 2: have the ability to take the technology and the skills

522
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 2: and just the experience of investment ditigators and actually solve

523
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,840
Speaker 2: these crimes. But to get to that next level, you

524
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 2: need an author them, you need a law. Yeah, they

525
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 2: don't have funding like well I would think, you know,

526
00:34:11,560 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 2: I I just assumed until you told me. I really

527
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:18,040
Speaker 2: did assume that there was federal funding, that it came

528
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 2: in from many different sources and they just had because

529
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,359
Speaker 2: of the work they are doing that I really did

530
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,040
Speaker 2: think that it was super funded. Not a problem. Send it,

531
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 2: We got you. You know, we're lined up from here

532
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 2: to the moon.

533
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:30,319
Speaker 3: But it's not like that at all.

534
00:34:30,480 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 1: That's not the way it works, you know. Uh. And

535
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:39,640
Speaker 1: it's curious to me where certain government agencies push moneies

536
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,600
Speaker 1: towards UH, and I think that you know, for me,

537
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 1: of course, i'm partial in this area because of the

538
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: death investigation. I think that one of the most noble

539
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:49,680
Speaker 1: things that you can do is provide a service like

540
00:34:49,719 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 1: this to families. Authorm fills that gap, uh, you know

541
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,920
Speaker 1: regarding this, regarding that that big unknown, because there's an

542
00:34:57,960 --> 00:35:01,479
Speaker 1: ultimate key it's uh, you know, at a molecular level

543
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,480
Speaker 1: that they're offering. Look, there's been cold case squads for

544
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 1: years and years, and it's frustrating being on a cold case.

545
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:12,080
Speaker 1: There's a reason they're cold cases, and you can in

546
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:18,840
Speaker 1: cold case cases that are part of a cold case packet.

547
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:22,919
Speaker 1: See if I can explain this correctly. They are generational,

548
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: So you can have an old group of investigators that

549
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 1: will be on a cold case, one of many that

550
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:33,320
Speaker 1: might exist in a certain jurisdiction, and from a generational standpoint,

551
00:35:33,320 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 1: and I'm talking generational in a very narrow spectrum here,

552
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: it's passed on to the next generation of investigators that

553
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:44,719
Speaker 1: have achieved the level of skill. Because the skills that

554
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:48,399
Speaker 1: a cold case investigator has are a bit different than

555
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,120
Speaker 1: your regular investigator that's out on the street. They're dealing

556
00:35:52,160 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 1: with things that are a bit finer in detail, and

557
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:57,320
Speaker 1: so you have to raise up another generation of police

558
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: officers to be at that level or investigators to be

559
00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,160
Speaker 1: at that level, and sometimes these cases just get handed off.

560
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:05,760
Speaker 1: That's what that and I really want people to grab

561
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 1: hold of this. That's why this is such a fantastic

562
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:14,200
Speaker 1: time to be alive and forensics to witness this because

563
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,520
Speaker 1: all of these cases dave that for years and years

564
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: and years that have gone gone unanswered. You know, the

565
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:26,200
Speaker 1: big questions that arise from these cases that have gone

566
00:36:26,920 --> 00:36:30,680
Speaker 1: unanswered for years and years and years. We're finally getting

567
00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 1: to see a few beams of sunlight that are exposed

568
00:36:35,120 --> 00:36:38,440
Speaker 1: in this darkness, and there will finally be answers. And

569
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: sometimes those answers will come about as an unidentified DNA

570
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 1: sample that could be blood or semen or any number

571
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 1: of body fluids that are found has seen that can

572
00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 1: tie back to a perpetrator, or it can be one

573
00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:57,719
Speaker 1: of the best gifts that anybody could give to one

574
00:36:57,719 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 1: of these families that have wanted to know for so

575
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:04,240
Speaker 1: long what happened to those that I love and striking

576
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,120
Speaker 1: them off of that master list that they have at names.

577
00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 1: I urge you to check out dnasolves dot com and

578
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 1: just visit the website. I don't get a nickel off

579
00:37:17,000 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 1: of this. I don't you know. I'm not here to

580
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 1: necessarily sell what authorm is doing. However, I've spent more

581
00:37:26,120 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 1: time than I can possibly express to any of you

582
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 1: guys standing over unidentified human remains for years and years

583
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 1: and years with no answers. Again, this might be one

584
00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,120
Speaker 1: of the most noble things that's being done in the

585
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:47,399
Speaker 1: area of forensic sciences right now, and I urge each

586
00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 1: and every one of you to go and visit the

587
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,600
Speaker 1: website and see what these people are doing, because it

588
00:37:53,680 --> 00:38:01,400
Speaker 1: will it will knock your socks off. I'm just Scott

589
00:38:01,440 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: Morgan and this is body bags. H