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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A twelve year old little girl.

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Speaker 1: A twelve year old little girl found wandering down a

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Speaker 1: roadway on the side of the roadway by herself, her

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Speaker 1: braces on, her teeth broken because she has been held hostage,

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Speaker 1: tied to a bedpost for days. I'm Nancy Grace. This

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Speaker 1: is Crime Stories. Thank you for being with us here

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Speaker 1: at Fox Nation and series M one eleven. First of all,

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Speaker 1: take a listen to this. It's a horrifying case nearly

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Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty miles north of Mobile, where a

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Speaker 1: twelve year old girl was found walking alone and later

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Speaker 1: led deputes to a gruesome discovery. The Tallapoosa County Sheriff's

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Speaker 1: Office responding to reports of a young girl wandering alone

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Speaker 1: County Road thirty four by herself around eight thirty last night.

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Speaker 1: According to court records, the girl had been tied to

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Speaker 1: a bedpost for nearly a week and drugged with alcohol

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Speaker 1: before managing to tow through her bindings and go for help.

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Speaker 1: Here hearing our friends at WP AM I walking alone

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Speaker 1: on a rural road with her braces on her teeth

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Speaker 1: all torn up, where we believe she chewed through her

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Speaker 1: restraints in order to get loose from the nightmare this

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Speaker 1: little girl had endured. Again. I'm Nancy Grayson. This is

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories. Thanks for being with us. What an all

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Speaker 1: star panel we have for you today. But before I

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Speaker 1: go to the rest of the panel, I want to

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Speaker 1: introduce a special guest joining us, the elected sheriff and

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Speaker 1: tallapoosaccount to Alabama. He has been elected since nineteen ninety five.

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Speaker 1: Sheriff Jimmy Abbott with us. Sheriff, thank you for being

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Speaker 1: with us. Hey, good morning, you a sheriff. Just what

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Speaker 1: I think I've seen it all. Having prosecuted in interstitding

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Speaker 1: Atlanta over a decade, something like this happens and I

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Speaker 1: find out sadly I have not seen it all. I'm

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Speaker 1: trying to understand what exactly happened, Sheriff, take a listen

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Speaker 1: with me. To Elizabeth White at WRBL Sheriff. According to

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Speaker 1: court documents, this twelfy year old juvenile was tied to

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Speaker 1: a bed post for about a week, was drugged allegedly

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Speaker 1: with alcohol, but somehow was able to chew herself free

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Speaker 1: from those restraints, get out into that road and flag

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Speaker 1: down help. Can you confirm that information that is in

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Speaker 1: the court documents. Yeah, we stand by that affidavit to

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Speaker 1: be able to procure there Cannopy moant again with me.

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Speaker 1: Sheriff Jimmy Ammott, the elected sheriff an Talapoosa County, Alabama. Sheriff,

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Speaker 1: When did you first learn that a little girl was

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Speaker 1: walking all by herself? And what highway was it? Sheriff?

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Speaker 1: Hiwe thirty four. We're in the rural area. It's just

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Speaker 1: kind of southeast of Daville, Alabama. We received a nine

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Speaker 1: one one call from a motorist that morning at about

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Speaker 1: eight twenty six am in reporting this young lady on

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Speaker 1: the roadway near the residence. So we responded. Law enforcement responded,

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Speaker 1: and as a result of the investigation, the preliminary investigation,

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Speaker 1: and the information she provided for us, we were able

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Speaker 1: to procure a kidnapping first degree, warned Sheriff. What can

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Speaker 1: for those of our listeners and viewers that aren't familiar

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Speaker 1: with that area? And PS, I don't know if you've

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Speaker 1: ever heard of this place? Hey, Cody, you ever heard

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Speaker 1: of it? I have it. I okay, I'm so happy

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Speaker 1: that I was man able to stump you on something.

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Speaker 1: My father's from hay Cody, Alabama. It is near opp

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Speaker 1: which is near Enterprise, which is near Mobile. Now that

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Speaker 1: is a tiny spot when you have to go to

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Speaker 1: three cities before you can get a location. I'm working

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Speaker 1: up to the question. Highway thirty four tell me about that.

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Speaker 1: HOWE thirty four is about twenty five miles from the Auburn,

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Speaker 1: Alabama area. We're about eighty miles south of Birmingham, and

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Speaker 1: this is a rural area. We're known for the Lake

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Speaker 1: Martin area that we have there, and we're about fifty

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Speaker 1: miles south of north of excuse me, south of Montgomery, gotcha,

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Speaker 1: east central east central Alabama, almost to sixty miles from Columbus, Georgia.

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Speaker 1: Got you. Yes, what is Lake Martin. It's a man

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Speaker 1: made of lake by seven hundred and twenty seven miles

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Speaker 1: of shoreline there. It's in Tallapoosa Cousa in Elmore County,

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Speaker 1: a larger recreational area. Wow. So it's a spot where

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Speaker 1: people come from all over the state to fish, swam ski. Yeah, yes, ma'am,

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Speaker 1: from the state and out of state people and that

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Speaker 1: are actually living in our resident our county. Now, no,

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Speaker 1: you know, normally that throw a wrench in the works

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Speaker 1: to have a tourist spot in the middle and listen,

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Speaker 1: I'm from rural bib County, not even near a city

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Speaker 1: of twenty five miles to make him, which is in

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Speaker 1: middle Georgia. I get it. So right in the middle

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Speaker 1: of a very rural area, very low population, very low crime.

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Speaker 1: You've got a huge seven hundred square foot lake that

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Speaker 1: draws tourists from all around, including other states. Now Joe

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Speaker 1: Scot Morgan with me, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author

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Speaker 1: of Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon and Starving brand

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Speaker 1: new hit series Body Backs with Joseph Scott Morgan on

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Speaker 1: iHeart that throws a wrench in the works when you

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Speaker 1: have a big tourist like that. Yeah, yeah, it really does,

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Speaker 1: because you don't know where a lot of these people

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Speaker 1: are coming from, you know. And Sheriff was right and

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Speaker 1: mentioning that you've got all kinds of people that are

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Speaker 1: not just coming in from Alabama and the local metro

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Speaker 1: areas there, but from out of state. Lake Martin's a

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Speaker 1: beautiful area, so you know, it will attract people, say

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Speaker 1: for instance, from Georgia that owned properties over there and

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Speaker 1: stay for long term or short term. So you can

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Speaker 1: have transient population that comes in and of course that

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Speaker 1: creates a headache for all the investigators involved in a

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Speaker 1: case like this. You know, Sheriff Jimmy Abbott with me

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Speaker 1: falling on the hills of Jesscott Morgan. When I first

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Speaker 1: realized what this means, I was prosecuting a case. It's

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Speaker 1: a guy that was a serial killer, and at that

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Speaker 1: point I thought I could get him on one murder.

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Speaker 1: But it was a Jane Doe. I didn't even know

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Speaker 1: who the purple was yet. I had a Jane Doe

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Speaker 1: found out in a field, no idea, honor, nothing, but

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Speaker 1: we were able to figure out. I was thinking, who's

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Speaker 1: your boyfriend, who's her husband, who's her ex? Where does

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Speaker 1: she work? Where does she live? Can I find those

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Speaker 1: things out and maybe I can find the killer. Then

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Speaker 1: I found out she had gotten off Marta the bus downtown. No,

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Speaker 1: it was Greyhound Crayoun bus downtown. She came out of

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Speaker 1: the bus station, Sheriff, and that is when I learned

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Speaker 1: you throw in airport bus station tourist attraction. Suddenly there

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Speaker 1: goes your line of inquiry because now you have thousands

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Speaker 1: of potential suspects. You wouldn't have if, say a woman,

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Speaker 1: a person was found dead in their home. When you

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Speaker 1: throw in something like Lake Martin, you've got a lot

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Speaker 1: more potential suspects. But let me get back to finding

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Speaker 1: this twelve year old girl. What is that? Let's see

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Speaker 1: seven eight, fifth grade, almost six or seventh I believe

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Speaker 1: seventh grade, completed, a sixth grade, headed to the seventh

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Speaker 1: So just out of the sixth grade, twelve years old. Now,

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Speaker 1: how did she get picked up? Sheriff? Well, basically she

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Speaker 1: wasn't picked up. She was actually when we got the call,

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Speaker 1: law enforcement responded our agency and also another agency responded

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Speaker 1: there and just attained her to law Investigative investigators got

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Speaker 1: to the scene and once they got to the scene

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Speaker 1: and kind of debriefed her on the information that she

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Speaker 1: could provide us. Sure, if you went to the scene later,

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Speaker 1: what did you observe? Was it on a lonely stretch

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Speaker 1: of road? And I understand the motorists saw her. Was

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Speaker 1: it a man or a woman that saw her. We're

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Speaker 1: not getting into that right now because we still in

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Speaker 1: the investigative stages, and so we have interviewed the person

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Speaker 1: that actually saw her there. It is a rural area,

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Speaker 1: it's not a heavy populated area. It is a through road,

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Speaker 1: Like I said earlier, a lot of traffic going to

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Speaker 1: the lake, going to Auburn. So about a twenty six

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Speaker 1: when she actually called nine one one and the agencies

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Speaker 1: responded to gather information from her, A twenty six Am, Yes, ma'am.

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Speaker 1: So somebody, a motorist comes along, sees the girl and

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Speaker 1: they don't take the girl anywhere. They just call nine

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Speaker 1: one one. Correct, that's correct. That's the best thing. That's

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Speaker 1: the very best thing. Because think about it, Sheriff, which

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you already have, if the person, the good

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Speaker 1: samaritan puts the girl in the car, it takes her somewhere.

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Speaker 1: If this thing finally goes to trial, the prop could argue, oh,

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Speaker 1: they did it. I didn't do it. That motorists did it.

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Speaker 1: I know it sounds crazy, right, but they could argue that.

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Speaker 1: And if you get one crazy juror, you're screwed. Now

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Speaker 1: a lot of lawyers talking in the fancy Latin terms,

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Speaker 1: but I'm telling you you'd be screwed. So thank goodness,

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Speaker 1: that's what the motorists did. Time stories with Nancy Grace. Guys,

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Speaker 1: we are talking with the elected sheriff. Sheriff Jimmy Abbott

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Speaker 1: out of Talapoosa County. A twelve year old girl is

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Speaker 1: fan with her braces all ripped up, walking along the

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Speaker 1: side of a desolate rural highway. And this is what

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Speaker 1: we learned. Take a listen to our friends at WSFA.

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Speaker 1: Surrendous situation. Talapoosa County Sheriff Jimmy Abbess as deputies gotta

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Speaker 1: call yesterday morning that a twelve year old girl was

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Speaker 1: wandering down the road here along County Road thirty four.

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Speaker 1: Investigators say she was kidnapped. We always say say something,

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Speaker 1: to say something. We're very appreciative to the people that

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Speaker 1: actually came forward. The twelve year old girl, according to

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Speaker 1: court records, had been tied up and drugged before managing

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Speaker 1: to escape. Sheriff, what did the girls say had happened

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Speaker 1: to her? Well, basically what she indicated as far as

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Speaker 1: the complaints that we were actually doing. You know that

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Speaker 1: she indicated in there that she had been restrained to

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Speaker 1: the bedpost for a fox in a week and gave

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Speaker 1: the victim alcohol to keep her in a drug state,

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Speaker 1: as well as assaulted her in the head area. Right,

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Speaker 1: assaulted her in the head area, you mean hit her

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Speaker 1: in the head, Yes, ma'am was the little girl sex assaulted.

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Speaker 1: We have no knowledge of that at this time. So

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Speaker 1: in order to keep her sedated, the perp fed her

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Speaker 1: alcohol and hit her in the head. That's what our

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Speaker 1: complaint to indicated, so that we could actually get the

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Speaker 1: arrest warrant. Yes, sureff, what condition was the girl in?

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Speaker 1: She did not have any life threatening injuries as injuries,

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Speaker 1: she did receive medical attention and then she was placed

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Speaker 1: into the custody of Obama Department came and resources. Does

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Speaker 1: she have the wherewithal to tell you where this had happened?

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Speaker 1: She did, she indicated, as she was in an approximate

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Speaker 1: location the residents when we actually arrived on the scene.

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Speaker 1: The alsers arrived on the scene and started a gathering

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Speaker 1: information from her in regards to this. Joining you right now,

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Speaker 1: special guest crime reporter from Oxygen dot com. You can

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Speaker 1: find her on Twitter at Underscore Gina Tron, author of

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Speaker 1: Star sixty seven and employment on Amazon with Me Gina Tron. Gina,

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Speaker 1: what do we know about that morning? Eight twenty six

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Speaker 1: am when the call comes in? After the call went

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Speaker 1: came in, the girl was taken to the hospital and

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Speaker 1: from there the investigators went I believe the next day,

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Speaker 1: they went to the home where she instructed them was

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Speaker 1: being held captive. Gina, do you know if it's been

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Speaker 1: reported that the girl was sex assaulted? It was not

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Speaker 1: reported that. However, the court documents say that the intended

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Speaker 1: to kidnapping was to quote violate or abuse sexually the victim.

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Speaker 1: Sheriff Jimmy Abbott back to you, the girl was able

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Speaker 1: to lead you back to the home where she says

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Speaker 1: she was tied to the bedpost. Correct, that's correct. Where

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Speaker 1: was it? The home was on counter Road thirty four,

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Speaker 1: which is the same proximity that she was actually located at.

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Speaker 1: So it's in that rural areas. We spoke and it

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Speaker 1: was the same day instance, not in the next day

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Speaker 1: that we actually went into the residence. Sheriff, What was

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Speaker 1: found when you and your people went into the residence. Actually,

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Speaker 1: we precured a search warrant for the residence based on

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Speaker 1: the information and entered into the residence, and at that

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Speaker 1: point in time, two decomposed bodies were actually found in

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Speaker 1: the residents. They were removed and went to the Alabama

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Speaker 1: Department of Forensic Sciences for their examination. Take a listen

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Speaker 1: to this. Yesterday about a twenty six, our office received

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Speaker 1: a call of a young juneile female walking in the

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Speaker 1: roadway in the area of thirty five forty seven County

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Speaker 1: Road thirty four. During their initial investigation, from the information

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Speaker 1: that we received and collected, we were able to arrest

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Speaker 1: the Jose Pauline Pascal Reyes of this same address for

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Speaker 1: kidnapping in the first degree and he was arrested in

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Speaker 1: Auburn or Summerville Circle by the Marshall Service in the

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Speaker 1: Auburn Police Department and more. Listen, first of all, what

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Speaker 1: stands in the affidavit. We stand by that affidavit to

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Speaker 1: be able to procure the kidnapping wants. And I would

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Speaker 1: say she's a hero, and it's one of those things

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Speaker 1: that we want to get into to a later where

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Speaker 1: gave her medical attention and she's safe now and so

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Speaker 1: we want to keep her that way. And that's basic

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Speaker 1: all I can actually say. The first contact we had

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Speaker 1: her which yesterday morning when a passing bar was able

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Speaker 1: to stop with her and they reported to us, so

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Speaker 1: she was not a considered a missing person. And also

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Speaker 1: we learned more from Elizabeth White at WRBL the child

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Speaker 1: had restraint marks on her wrist braces, on her teeth

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Speaker 1: broken from her escape, according to investigators, as the child

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Speaker 1: was being treated for injuries, investigators entered the home, locating

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Speaker 1: two decomposing bodies. Their identities and cause of death not

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Speaker 1: yet released. Ryas was located Monday by US marshals at

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Speaker 1: a construction site where he was working in Auburn. He's

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Speaker 1: charged with first degree kidnapping. Investigators say other charges, including

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Speaker 1: capital murder, are pending. Nicole hodge Clod joining me veteran

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Speaker 1: criminal defense attorney out of Houston, former prosecutor, and you

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Speaker 1: can find her at Houston criminal defense dot com. Nicole,

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Speaker 1: did you hear Sheriff Jimmy Abbott say very carefully we

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Speaker 1: had an affidavit to support a search warrant before we

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Speaker 1: went into that home. That's the way you do it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's cross your t's and dot in your eyes. Because

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Speaker 1: in my mind, if a little girl with embraces all

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Speaker 1: mangled up from chewing through restraints to escape a sex predator,

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Speaker 1: been tied up to a bed post for a week,

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Speaker 1: hitting the head, and fed alcohol to keep her sedated,

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Speaker 1: I would call that X and exigent circumstances, but not

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Speaker 1: only that, which you usually would apply to a car,

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Speaker 1: I would be worried another crime could be going down

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Speaker 1: in that home and just break the door down. Now see,

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Speaker 1: that's how we have shriff Jimmy Abbott because he did

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Speaker 1: the right thing. Because you don't want to trial the

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Speaker 1: defense jumping up and saying he had time to get

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Speaker 1: a warrant. You can't just break down the door, you're

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Speaker 1: so right, and some judge might agree and throw out

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Speaker 1: all the evidence that you find inside. Of course, also

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Speaker 1: there's ultimate discovery because ultimately two dead bodies are going

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Speaker 1: to be found because someone is going to miss those people.

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Speaker 1: But did you hear that this girl had not been

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Speaker 1: reported as missing even though she had been tied to

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Speaker 1: a bed post for a week, And now we know why,

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Speaker 1: But first explain why the sheriff did the right thing

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Speaker 1: and getting the warrants absolutely the right thing. And as

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Speaker 1: you've already pointed out, it really is kind of a

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Speaker 1: belt in suspenders situation. It could be what we call

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Speaker 1: exigent or emergency circumstances which would have allowed law enforcement

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Speaker 1: to go in without a warrant, But this is exactly

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Speaker 1: the right way to do it for law enforcement. You

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Speaker 1: get that warrant to be sure. That way there are

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Speaker 1: no arguments later on when you discover evidence that you

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Speaker 1: need for trial. And I'll tell you that's a hard

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Speaker 1: thing to do. When you have a case involving a child.

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Speaker 1: There are very few circumstances more emotional than finding a

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Speaker 1: child who is injured, who has been attacked, and who

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Speaker 1: has reported that this is the location of the crime,

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Speaker 1: and that there may be something still ongoing. And it

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Speaker 1: is so smart to press pause, as we've done in

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Speaker 1: this case, do what is correct under the law and

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Speaker 1: get that warrant, even though it is really not the

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Speaker 1: emotionally natural thing to do, not at all. Sheriff Jamie Abbott,

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Speaker 1: in your jurisdiction, can you get a warrant over the

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Speaker 1: phone or did you have to go through standing an

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Speaker 1: investigator to the sheriff, I mean, to the judge, have

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Speaker 1: the investigator swear in and give information or could you

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Speaker 1: do it my phone? Yes, we can do telephonic search

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Speaker 1: warrant my phone, and then we have to then, you know,

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Speaker 1: prepare the affidavid, you know, for the judge later to

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Speaker 1: to sign and then the return. So everybody a return

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Speaker 1: that Sheriff Abbot's talking about is when you go in

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Speaker 1: on a search warrant and you find things that you're

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Speaker 1: going to seize, like drugs. Let's just go with drugs.

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Speaker 1: You write a return, which means you list everything that

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Speaker 1: you're seizing from the home. Sheriff, I'm so glad you

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Speaker 1: could do. You said telephonic a phone affidavit. You know,

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Speaker 1: you explain it, Nicole Hodge Globe what we mean by

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Speaker 1: abbot Sheriff Abbott getting the affidavit to support the warrant

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Speaker 1: to make that search legal. So the law enforcement official

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Speaker 1: who is providing the affidavit has to swear to it

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Speaker 1: and go in front of a judge or in front

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Speaker 1: of somebody who can really notorize it or accept that swearing,

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Speaker 1: and then give them a document that is the warrant.

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Speaker 1: So in the old days, most places required that you

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Speaker 1: be present. You go do that in person. There have

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Speaker 1: been changes to the law over time, and these changes

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Speaker 1: allow for these types of swearing as to happen over

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Speaker 1: the telephone. They have people in place who can accept

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Speaker 1: the swearing and provide the affidavit, oftentimes over the computer.

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Speaker 1: It would have been again in the old days, provided

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Speaker 1: by facts or just hand. It's the law enforcement official.

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Speaker 1: But now because we know and understand that time is

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Speaker 1: of the essence. You can actually take care of these

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Speaker 1: things remotely, which really makes up So Sureff, what do

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Speaker 1: you do use the magistrate who were really there for

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Speaker 1: off hours because court very often doesn't start till nine

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Speaker 1: or ten o'clock in the morning. Who do you go

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Speaker 1: in front of a magistrate? We actually use our district judge.

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Speaker 1: We have district judges and circuit judges in our county,

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Speaker 1: so we actually do it in person by phone to

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Speaker 1: the circuit to the district judge, Suriff Abbott, what was

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Speaker 1: discovered when your people went in the home? Pursue it

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Speaker 1: to one? Well, as you know, the two decomposed bodies

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Speaker 1: were actually failed. We process the scene for almost three

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Speaker 1: days Monday, Tuesday and Wednesday, gathering other valuable information that

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Speaker 1: we can use against the individual. Can't get into that

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Speaker 1: right now, but basically, the two decomposed bodies were actually

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Speaker 1: our focus to begin with. And once we found those,

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Speaker 1: then they went immediately to transport immedially to Forensic Sciences

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Speaker 1: which is located in Montgomery, and they started their examination

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Speaker 1: and Friday, if I may add, is that we've finally

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Speaker 1: got a positive idea on the Sandra Saha, and then

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Speaker 1: the other individual, juvenile under the age of fourteen, is

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Speaker 1: reasonably sure that this is identity of this individual. So

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Speaker 1: I've got a woman and a little boy where the

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Speaker 1: two murdered people. And I'm understanding, I'm reading between the

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Speaker 1: lines that at first you couldn't even identify the victims.

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Speaker 1: Sandra Saha is a little twelve year old girls mother,

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Speaker 1: and the little boy seems to be her brother. I'm

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Speaker 1: hearing you say it was a three day process, an

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Speaker 1: odyssey of processing that home where the little girl had

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Speaker 1: been tied to a bedpost for a week, sedated with

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Speaker 1: alcohol and beaten a head. I just wonder, sheriff, where

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Speaker 1: she was tied to the bed, would she had been

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Speaker 1: able to see her mother or brother's body. We're not

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Speaker 1: getting into that right now. I hope you understand. It's

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Speaker 1: still a part of the investigation and we're trying to feel,

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Speaker 1: like I said, to gather everything from A to Z

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Speaker 1: and then actually make our returns and then get with

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Speaker 1: our prosecutors and move forward with the case. To doctor

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Speaker 1: Charles Heller joining me, clinical forensic psychologist, chief forensic consultant

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Speaker 1: in Rockland County, New York. The forensic mental Health unit

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Speaker 1: works there at also Rutger's Biomedical and Health Services Doctor Heller,

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Speaker 1: I can't even imagine what this child will live through

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Speaker 1: the rest of her life. Yeah, this is a terrible

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Speaker 1: complex trauma, and she's going to need a lot of

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Speaker 1: emotional support and understanding, and there are various treatments that

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Speaker 1: can be used over time. But really we don't really

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Speaker 1: know what her condition is emotionally or mentally. Obviously, we

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Speaker 1: can hermise that she's been through one of the worst

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Speaker 1: travelers any human being could ever go through. Is horrible story.

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Speaker 1: I'm just wondering what she knew, if she knew what

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Speaker 1: was happening to her mother and brother. During this investigation

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Speaker 1: overnight investigation process and the residence we have found located

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Speaker 1: two decomposed bodies that would failed in currently at the

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Speaker 1: Department Forensic Sciences pending the identification. One of the victims

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Speaker 1: has been identified as the suspect's girlfriend, Sandra Vasquez Seja.

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Speaker 1: Court documents alleged Pascal Reyez smothered her to death with

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Speaker 1: a pillow. The other victim was her child, identified only

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Speaker 1: by his initials. Pascal Reyez is charged with capital murder

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Speaker 1: of a child under fourteen years old. The criminal complaint

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Speaker 1: goes on to accuse Pascal Reez of abusing a corpse

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Speaker 1: in an attempt to hide the evidence. Abusing a corpse, well,

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Speaker 1: that's certainly putting perfume on the pig you were hearing.

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Speaker 1: In addition to the Tallapoos County Sheriff, Sheriff Abbott our

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Speaker 1: friends at NBC, but now take a listen to our

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Speaker 1: friends Sarah killing in at w VTM. Court records are

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Speaker 1: identifying the victims found in the date film home as

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Speaker 1: a woman and child. The adult victim, Sandra CJ, was

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Speaker 1: smothered to death. The other victim, a young boy, beaten

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Speaker 1: to death. The two were dismembered to hide evidence. Jose

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Speaker 1: Pascal rayas that man you see right there, charged with

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Speaker 1: capital murder, abuse of a corpse, and kidnapping. Police say

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Speaker 1: that he kidnapped a twelve year old who he drugged

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Speaker 1: tied to a bedpost before she escaped by chewing her

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Speaker 1: way out of the restraints. To Sheriff Jimmy Abbott, have

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Speaker 1: you ever had a dismemberment case before this one? No,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry this was your first and I pray it

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Speaker 1: it's going to be your last. Because that, and I

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Speaker 1: know you've got to be careful because you're going to

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Speaker 1: be a witness. So whatever you don't want to answer,

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Speaker 1: I know you'll tell me. You're very forthright, Sheriff. When

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Speaker 1: your people first went into the home, was it apparent

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Speaker 1: that a dismemberment had occurred? I can't, I can't get

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Speaker 1: into that. And for no, no, no, no, You're absolutely right.

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Speaker 1: You're right, And that's why I've got Joe Scott Morgan,

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Speaker 1: not that he went into the home, but he's seen

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Speaker 1: probably more dismemberments. Between you and I together, Just Goot Morgan,

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Speaker 1: death investigator and professor forensics, Joe Scott, You and I

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Speaker 1: just okay, just gave me chills just remembering this. You

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Speaker 1: and I have just finished and I'm sure it's on going.

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Speaker 1: We're not through yet. Joe Scott investigating the case of

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Speaker 1: Colt mom Laurie Valo, where her two of her children

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Speaker 1: were murdered by her new husband and the little girl

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Speaker 1: was dismembered, Tyley was dismembered. There have been well, you

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Speaker 1: and I've investigated a lot of dismemberment cases. Yes, you're

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Speaker 1: you're three days, three days to process the scene. And

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Speaker 1: now I know why. Yeah, and if there's an upside,

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Speaker 1: the idea that it did take three days gives you

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Speaker 1: an idea as to the care that has been taken

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Speaker 1: in processing the scene. You know, we back up and

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Speaker 1: we think about this warrant that was the issue prior

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Speaker 1: to making entry into the scene. You've got to contain

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Speaker 1: scene because it's within you know, this this dwelling, which

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Speaker 1: is helpful in this sense. You don't have people you

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Speaker 1: can control who's coming in and out of it. And

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Speaker 1: because there's a lot of fragile, delicate evidence in a

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Speaker 1: scene like this that investigators would have to take their

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Speaker 1: time with. You know, if we just look at you know,

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Speaker 1: the word decomposing has been used several times, and when

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Speaker 1: you're dealing with a composing case and you don't have

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Speaker 1: an immediate witness that can give you information, time is

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Speaker 1: of essence there. And so you began to think about

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Speaker 1: how long the bodies had been down, and you know,

428
00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 1: we can talk about things like entomology and study of

429
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: insects and the rate of decomposition and heat. I don't

430
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 1: know they're going to get the same kind of insects

431
00:28:20,480 --> 00:28:22,959
Speaker 1: inside a home that you would get off the bodies.

432
00:28:23,000 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: Had been left out. Hey, hold on, Joe Scott, in

433
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:26,720
Speaker 1: just a second, hold your thought, because I want to

434
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: hear every single thing you're saying. I just got to ask, Sheriff,

435
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: Jimmy Abbott, Sheriff, I'm looking at the little girl. Her

436
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:37,720
Speaker 1: face is blurred, and she's got on a little shirt

437
00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 1: with the little it looks like a little blue horse

438
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 1: with wings, and it's rainbow colored. And she's all dressed

439
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 1: up to match her outfit with her skirt. I'm looking

440
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 1: at a picture of her brother and her mother is

441
00:28:55,760 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 1: just beautiful, Sheriff. How do you do it? How do

442
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,320
Speaker 1: you get up in the morning and put one foot

443
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: in front of the other. I'm looking at these three.

444
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: Oh my, she's got on a little headband with little

445
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:18,480
Speaker 1: ears and a unicorn, a gold unicorn horn coming at

446
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,400
Speaker 1: the top of her little headband. Like something I would

447
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 1: dress my sister, I'm excuse me, like I would dress

448
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: my little girl am when she was younger. And to

449
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 1: think the brother and the mother dead and dismembered, and

450
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 1: the little girl has been through hell, the bottom of hell,

451
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: and then out tied to that bedpost, while her mother

452
00:29:42,880 --> 00:29:47,080
Speaker 1: and brother are murdered and dismembered. How do you keep

453
00:29:47,120 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 1: going here? If I'm curious, Well, this is my second profession.

454
00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: At first I worked with the States and I worked

455
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,959
Speaker 1: in the ALBA Bureau Investigation for approximately twenty years, and

456
00:29:57,000 --> 00:30:00,760
Speaker 1: then I ran and got elected in this I feel

457
00:30:00,760 --> 00:30:03,560
Speaker 1: like it's a duty once you take this job, it's

458
00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 1: a duty to do the best that you can, and

459
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: investigating cases to end results is prosecuting the person. So

460
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 1: it's a passion that I've had for years. And you know,

461
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: our team of investigators, not just me, We had people

462
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 1: from local agencies, from the state and also from the

463
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 1: federal levels that was assisting us on this and are

464
00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 1: still assisting on us as we wade through the evidence

465
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,960
Speaker 1: that we've collected. And so it's just one of those

466
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 1: things that you have to do. It. It's a role

467
00:30:37,720 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 1: in law enforcement, you know, once you sign up. It's

468
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: one of those things that I've got a great passion for.

469
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 1: It is working in criminal investigation. As long as I've

470
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,480
Speaker 1: worked to make sure that we do the right thing

471
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: and train our people to do the right thing when

472
00:30:51,120 --> 00:30:53,240
Speaker 1: they're there. You know, there was many a time, sure

473
00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: if I would leave the courthouse or crime scene and

474
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 1: and I'll just pull off the side of the road

475
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: and just sit there to get my mind straight to

476
00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 1: keep going. But as a crime victim myself, I feel

477
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,640
Speaker 1: like it's a duty to keep going forward. And I

478
00:31:10,720 --> 00:31:13,240
Speaker 1: was just curious about how you do that. Now I'm

479
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 1: looking at a picture I found on Facebook, and it

480
00:31:16,840 --> 00:31:21,840
Speaker 1: said the mom and a beautiful purple evening dress and

481
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:24,800
Speaker 1: the sun has all a little blue suit and a

482
00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:29,239
Speaker 1: white collar shirt, and the daughter is all dressed up

483
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 1: in like a little red party dress and a little heels.

484
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,200
Speaker 1: They're obviously going to some events, some function. And to

485
00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 1: think that all that is over, the whole family, what's

486
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:45,600
Speaker 1: left of them, will never be the same again. Sheriff

487
00:31:58,680 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: time stories with me. It's grace. Tell me how the

488
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:07,520
Speaker 1: little girl is doing. She's doing well is expected physically,

489
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:12,160
Speaker 1: you know, injuries and all her minor injuries. We placed

490
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: her in the custody of the State of Alabama. She

491
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:20,600
Speaker 1: has an attorney in Alabama. That's that's the procedures that

492
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:24,680
Speaker 1: we go through, and the Alabama Department Human Resources is

493
00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:31,160
Speaker 1: taking care of her. We've had tremendous support from the community,

494
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:35,360
Speaker 1: people reaching out to assist the DHR as well as

495
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: her you know what is another amazing thing about this

496
00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: is the fact that the little girl lived. Sheriff, take

497
00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 1: a listen to our cut seventeen. This is our longtime

498
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 1: friend Gail King at forty eight hours. Jamie Cross went

499
00:32:53,400 --> 00:32:57,120
Speaker 1: missing in the early hours of October fifteen, twenty eighteen,

500
00:32:57,360 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: when a man in the family did not know pulled

501
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 1: into their driveway. Jamie's father, Jim was murdered, shot at

502
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 1: point blank range at the front door. Her mother, Denise,

503
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 1: barricaded herself with Jamie in the bathroom and called nine Night.

504
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: One call is very inaudible. I can't hear words. You

505
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: hear a yelling or maybe a scream, and it ends

506
00:33:25,080 --> 00:33:27,960
Speaker 1: by getting hung up. The killer drove away with thirteen

507
00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,640
Speaker 1: year old Jamie in the trunk of his card. Jamie

508
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:35,600
Speaker 1: class endured hell and had her family murdered as well

509
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 1: by a predator. Sheriff Abbott, I don't understand the thinking

510
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: of these perps willing to wipe out a whole family

511
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 1: to get to the girl. I mean, I don't know

512
00:33:50,320 --> 00:33:54,080
Speaker 1: if that was the motivation in this case, but do

513
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:58,440
Speaker 1: you believe you have a motivation regarding the twelve year

514
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 1: old girl that you guys say, we're not commenting on

515
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 1: any emo at this time. We're still letting the investigation

516
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:12,320
Speaker 1: continued and with hopefully the results of what you're asking

517
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 1: me as far as m will come out at a

518
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,800
Speaker 1: later date. To Gina Tron joining me from Oxygen dot Com, Gina,

519
00:34:19,120 --> 00:34:22,840
Speaker 1: what more can you tell us? Well, the family was

520
00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 1: living with the suspect four months before this happened, so um,

521
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 1: it's it's uh, it makes one wonder if he had

522
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: been planning this for a while. They moved in with

523
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 1: him in February, and um, the attack actually happened on

524
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 1: July twenty fourth, or allegedly that's when the mother and

525
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:47,839
Speaker 1: son were killed and when the girls captivity began. Joe

526
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 1: Scott Morgan joining me, Professor forensics, will we be able

527
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 1: to date the murders and then backtrack and compared to

528
00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: when the girl was first taken hostage? I think that

529
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,520
Speaker 1: deepender pumps school evidence that has been gathered in a

530
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,080
Speaker 1: case like this. Uh, you know, one of the things

531
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: that you're going to look for is how long the

532
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:14,000
Speaker 1: remains have been down and you know, dependent upon the

533
00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:17,000
Speaker 1: information that may be developed by the investigators, is that

534
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:21,359
Speaker 1: going to marry up with this timeline and keep in mind,

535
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: you've got to You've got this poor little girl that's

536
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,799
Speaker 1: in and out of uh, you know her, what her

537
00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:30,440
Speaker 1: current reality was. She She's not going to be necessarily

538
00:35:30,440 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: oriented at time and space, so she's going to be

539
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 1: hard I think, uh to get information from about specific times. Um.

540
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,880
Speaker 1: You know, one of the troubling things for me is,

541
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 1: you know, perhaps the head trauma that she may have sustained,

542
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:51,719
Speaker 1: coupling that with this ongoing you know, uh dosing of

543
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,520
Speaker 1: alcohol and anything else that she may may have had

544
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 1: in her system. And I'm sure that there they probably

545
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: did talks on her, more than likely when they did

546
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,960
Speaker 1: the initial assessment. Yes, ma'am, Jess got Morgan joining me,

547
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:07,240
Speaker 1: Jes Scott there. I just don't think there's any way

548
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:11,320
Speaker 1: this little girl did not know her mother and brother

549
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 1: had been killed and dismembered. It's a very small home. Yeah,

550
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: it is very contained. And this is the thing about it.

551
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: As you know, as this process of decomposition is going

552
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:24,440
Speaker 1: on and she is in this environment, you're going to

553
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: have all kinds of horrors that are going to be

554
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 1: falling her. Just from a century standpoint, The things that

555
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 1: she smells, maybe things that she hears in that environment,

556
00:36:33,520 --> 00:36:36,160
Speaker 1: and she would have had some kind of awareness. I

557
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 1: don't know specifically, you know what kind of detail she

558
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: could come up with. But you know, when you begin

559
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,800
Speaker 1: to think about the fact that what has been alleged

560
00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 1: is that she had chewed through her restraints in this

561
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:52,360
Speaker 1: environment to get free, that means that shows a will

562
00:36:52,400 --> 00:36:56,000
Speaker 1: on her part, and then she's got to extricate herself.

563
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 1: This is not like the police actually came in and

564
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 1: removed her Hollywood movie. She did this all on her own,

565
00:37:03,400 --> 00:37:05,359
Speaker 1: and so she would have had to have made her

566
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:08,239
Speaker 1: way through that environment. And I can't even begin to

567
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,439
Speaker 1: plumb the depths of how horrible that would have been.

568
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: I mean, Josca Morgan, how do we even know the

569
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 1: mom was suffocated? If the bodies have been dismembered, possibly

570
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,440
Speaker 1: the head was still intact. In other words, they found

571
00:37:21,480 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 1: the head so they can make out the particular being

572
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: burst or I'm not sure how would they do that

573
00:37:27,160 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 1: with a dismembered body. That's the only thing I can

574
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 1: think of is that they would have had some kind

575
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,960
Speaker 1: of evidence, perhaps in the form of particular hemorrhages, because

576
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 1: they keep using this term decomposing bodies and so how

577
00:37:39,320 --> 00:37:41,280
Speaker 1: are you going to assess that? And I think that's

578
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 1: that's what the forensic sciences are faced with in this

579
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 1: particular case. Or to doctor Charles Hell are joining us

580
00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:55,720
Speaker 1: forensic psychologist, maybe the little girl told them mommy was asphyxiated,

581
00:37:55,800 --> 00:38:00,520
Speaker 1: smothers strangled. Sometimes, Nancy, in cases like this, when it's

582
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 1: such a horrible, horrific event, a trauma beyond words, a

583
00:38:07,200 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: person goes into a dissociative state. It's almost like they

584
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:15,520
Speaker 1: numb out, so they don't feel the pain. It's like

585
00:38:15,560 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: a blackout. So there could be times when this little

586
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 1: girl did that. Also in terms of remembering it that

587
00:38:23,920 --> 00:38:28,239
Speaker 1: she can have dissociative moments where she doesn't remember. So

588
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 1: it's a complex trauma and she's going to be she's injured,

589
00:38:34,120 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 1: she's emotionally injured, and she's gonna need great therapy and treatment.

590
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,759
Speaker 1: Nicole devoured hots Globe joining us out of tech this

591
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:49,080
Speaker 1: high profile defense attorney White and Nicole, we were very,

592
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 1: very fortunate that this heroic child was able to get

593
00:38:52,200 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 1: out of that home and get help. And one of

594
00:38:55,840 --> 00:38:58,319
Speaker 1: the next miracles to happen is that the person who

595
00:38:58,360 --> 00:39:03,000
Speaker 1: discovered her did not did not take her somewhere, did

596
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 1: not remove her further from the scene, and did not

597
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:10,239
Speaker 1: question her. These things are so important because they will

598
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:13,320
Speaker 1: make her testimony and what she has to say ultimately

599
00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:17,520
Speaker 1: to the police that much cleaner. So I'm just very

600
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 1: glad for her. I mean, can we all get real?

601
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 1: Just for one moment? He murdered the mother, according to

602
00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:28,320
Speaker 1: the little girl, and the brother kept her alive, tied

603
00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 1: to a bed for a week, hitting her in the head,

604
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 1: and feeding her alcohol to keep her sedated. What other

605
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:39,319
Speaker 1: motive is there other than a sex motive? I mean,

606
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 1: am I missing something? Joe Scott helped me out. Yeah.

607
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: I mean the fact that that she is restrained is

608
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: a huge tell in this. You know, why, what would

609
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,840
Speaker 1: be your purpose? I'm using your in a universal sense,

610
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: but specifically to the perpetrator. Why why would you need

611
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:03,040
Speaker 1: to keep twelve year old restrained? And you know that's

612
00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: the biggest thing here for me. And then you're gonna

613
00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 1: leave her in this environment and go to work, Go

614
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:10,839
Speaker 1: to work. Just think about the audacity of that. You're

615
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:13,200
Speaker 1: going to go to work working on a construction side.

616
00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 1: Remember that's where they caught this guy after he had

617
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:20,320
Speaker 1: left this poor child tied up to this bed and

618
00:40:20,480 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 1: her family there. This member didn't decomposing, it just beats off.

619
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:29,399
Speaker 1: The metal underpinning of the mobile home was damaged and

620
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:33,759
Speaker 1: investigators believe that that may have been a part of

621
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 1: the effort to hide the body. So if you like

622
00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: look at footage from the seat, it looks as though

623
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 1: the bodies may have been found underneath the trailer, which

624
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:46,520
Speaker 1: will be brought out at trial because actions before, during,

625
00:40:46,560 --> 00:40:51,840
Speaker 1: and following a crime are admissible to show course of conduct,

626
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:57,800
Speaker 1: frame of mind, scheme, motive. For right now, this little

627
00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 1: girl is alive. Wait, wait is justice and falls Nancy

628
00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:04,600
Speaker 1: Grace crimbstory signing off, goodbye friend,