1 00:00:00,080 --> 00:00:03,640 Speaker 1: Welcome to zero. I am Akshatrati this week how to 2 00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: imagine a better Future? Happy New Year, and welcome to 3 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:24,200 Speaker 1: twenty twenty six. I like starting the new year by 4 00:00:24,239 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: thinking about a better future, and what better way to 5 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,520 Speaker 1: do that than to hear from someone whose life project 6 00:00:30,760 --> 00:00:35,760 Speaker 1: has been imagining utopias Kim Stanley Robinson. If you're not 7 00:00:35,880 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: already familiar with his work, stan is a sci fi writer, 8 00:00:39,560 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: perhaps best known for his Mars trilogy published in the 9 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,879 Speaker 1: nineteen nineties, but for the climate crowd, it is his 10 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: twenty twenty book Ministry for the Future that he is 11 00:00:49,120 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: best known for. It is one of the boldest and 12 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:56,560 Speaker 1: most imaginative works of climate fiction. Stan is a big thinker, 13 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: and he has a remarkable ability to put the problems 14 00:00:59,360 --> 00:01:02,560 Speaker 1: of today and of one hundred years from now into perspective. 15 00:01:03,240 --> 00:01:05,959 Speaker 1: He also gives me a sense of realistic optimism and 16 00:01:06,040 --> 00:01:09,319 Speaker 1: helps me break out of the here and now. Listening 17 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: to him is like an antidote to the new cycle 18 00:01:12,280 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: that occupies my day to day as a journalist. So 19 00:01:15,360 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: it was an absolute pleasure to sit down with him 20 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: at COP thirty one in Brazil and to welcome him 21 00:01:20,600 --> 00:01:23,360 Speaker 1: back on zero for our very first episode of twenty 22 00:01:23,400 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: twenty six, where we talk about abundance and adequacy, what 23 00:01:27,600 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: will trigger people to take more action, and how to 24 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: think about living your life better. Stan, welcome back to 25 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:41,080 Speaker 1: the show. 26 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:43,039 Speaker 2: Thank you, auk Shot, it's good to be back. 27 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: I want to take a big step back because this 28 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: is the start of a new year and people will 29 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:50,800 Speaker 1: be thinking about how the year unfolds. What are the 30 00:01:50,840 --> 00:01:53,320 Speaker 1: new goals they would like to set, where they would 31 00:01:53,360 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: like their lives to go, where they would like the 32 00:01:55,480 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 1: planet to go, and maybe take a philosophical step back. 33 00:02:00,000 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 1: We were to provide your own philosophy of how you 34 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,720 Speaker 1: live your life? How do you explain it? 35 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:11,919 Speaker 2: I from my youth have felt that the best description 36 00:02:12,000 --> 00:02:15,919 Speaker 2: of life is a form of existentialism. So this comes 37 00:02:15,919 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 2: out of well, it has a long tradition back to 38 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 2: pascalon before. But really world War two start and Camu 39 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 2: French existentialism was a worldwide moment of awareness, and I 40 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,280 Speaker 2: guess I would define it like this. We are biological 41 00:02:32,280 --> 00:02:36,079 Speaker 2: creatures with these brains that evolve to what they are, 42 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:41,080 Speaker 2: that have thoughts and memories and projections into the future 43 00:02:41,160 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 2: in forms of imagination. Meaning is not provided by the universe. 44 00:02:47,480 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 2: It's a gigantic sequence of accidents. But meaning seems to 45 00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 2: be very important to human beings. It is to me, 46 00:02:55,360 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 2: I think it is to everybody. You want meaning, how 47 00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 2: do you get it? You have to create it from 48 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:06,600 Speaker 2: what you see in the world, essentially from scratch, and 49 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 2: what it manifests as is a project. You assign a 50 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:15,000 Speaker 2: meaning to the universe. The meaning for me is my 51 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:18,679 Speaker 2: project as human being, and so we become very project oriented, 52 00:03:18,960 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 2: and being without a project or without a project that 53 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:28,240 Speaker 2: is meaningful to you is an immediate invitation to borderm 54 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 2: and despair. So projects are crucial to the human mind 55 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,800 Speaker 2: because they create meaning. And so that's my working philosophy 56 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 2: and it has been since I was a student. 57 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:40,840 Speaker 1: And that form of existentialism can also go in a 58 00:03:40,880 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 1: direction of nihilism, where the meaninglessness of the world can 59 00:03:44,760 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: be taken to mean nothing is worth it. And it's 60 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 1: not that I'm raising this as a philosophical point. There 61 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:55,000 Speaker 1: is a strand of nihilism among young people that is growing, 62 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: and it's in the face of climate change, it's in 63 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: the face of artificial intelligence, and where they would find 64 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 1: themselves in society, whether they would find meaningful jobs. How 65 00:04:05,840 --> 00:04:09,760 Speaker 1: do you face up to nihilism in a time where 66 00:04:10,400 --> 00:04:13,920 Speaker 1: it's not just the technology trends and the biospheric trends 67 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: but also the political trends that tempt you in its direction. 68 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 2: Well, first you have to say that's it's right, that 69 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:27,040 Speaker 2: nihilism is right in this first step of it, which 70 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 2: is to say that the universe does not have an 71 00:04:29,240 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 2: intrinsic meaning that is given to us to receive, we 72 00:04:32,920 --> 00:04:37,359 Speaker 2: have to make it up. So the first step of 73 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:41,920 Speaker 2: nihilism is exactly the same as the first step of existentialism. 74 00:04:43,000 --> 00:04:46,359 Speaker 2: But the existentialist says a world without meaning is not 75 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:50,760 Speaker 2: worth living, and Kamu often talks about this the consideration 76 00:04:50,839 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 2: of suicide, for instance, if I don't have meaning, why 77 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,239 Speaker 2: even live at all? And this is the nihilist's position, 78 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 2: But you don't want to get stuck there, because nihilism 79 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,360 Speaker 2: leads despair into a kind of an anui where you're 80 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,840 Speaker 2: just you don't do anything because nothing means anything. And 81 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:09,960 Speaker 2: you're right to point out the political elements of this. 82 00:05:10,160 --> 00:05:13,200 Speaker 2: If you're in the percaryat if you are told you 83 00:05:13,279 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 2: have to work like a dog your entire life, and 84 00:05:15,440 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 2: you're never going to be secure anyway, then the situation 85 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 2: looks even more dire. But from that basic self, same 86 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:30,080 Speaker 2: situation of meaninglessness, if you choose a project that gives 87 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:33,600 Speaker 2: your life meaning, then you have They talk about this 88 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 2: quite often. You've basically created a self from the conditions 89 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:44,400 Speaker 2: that exist which are meaningless. You nevertheless have said, for me, 90 00:05:44,720 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 2: the meaning is this, I'm going to work on this project. 91 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 2: And if the project is not just self actualization, which 92 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:54,599 Speaker 2: is good in and of itself, but is some kind 93 00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 2: of a communal project, I do this for others. I 94 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:00,280 Speaker 2: do this for the future generations. I do this, or 95 00:06:00,320 --> 00:06:02,159 Speaker 2: the community that I'm in, I do this for my 96 00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 2: friends and my family. If it's other directed like that, 97 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 2: then the meaning can take on a real intensity, and 98 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,880 Speaker 2: suddenly you do not have the problems of the nihilist anymore. 99 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:16,840 Speaker 2: You have other problems. And it's hard to fight off 100 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,160 Speaker 2: a feeling that whatever you do is not enough, because 101 00:06:20,400 --> 00:06:24,800 Speaker 2: that's true, but it's also true that one eight billionth 102 00:06:24,880 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 2: of the effort is not nothing. One eight billionth in 103 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 2: certain chemicals can be quite powerful. And then you need 104 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:36,680 Speaker 2: to join a group, and then you're like one out 105 00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:38,600 Speaker 2: of one hundred rather than one out of eight billion, 106 00:06:39,120 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 2: and so it clumps together in shared projects that create 107 00:06:44,520 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 2: meaning because they are devoted to the welfare of others, 108 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,919 Speaker 2: and then that pleases you as well. So there's a 109 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 2: nice circularity to it. 110 00:06:52,400 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 1: And it's certainly true that people who work on climate 111 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:59,000 Speaker 1: change have a meaningful project in front of them. Yes, 112 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: and for them, the challenge has been more about not 113 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: seeing the change that they hope to see, that that 114 00:07:06,920 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 1: change is not happening at the pace at which they 115 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:14,880 Speaker 1: thought or the theory said it could happen. And for 116 00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 1: them it is very much an attempt to try to 117 00:07:19,200 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 1: stay on track despite the failures that they are seeing left, 118 00:07:23,960 --> 00:07:26,920 Speaker 1: right and center these days. Yes, you know, how do 119 00:07:27,040 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: you maintain yourself on the project once you have a project? 120 00:07:32,920 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 2: Well, it's a very good question, and I think it's 121 00:07:35,120 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 2: important too, because you want to avoid burnout. There are 122 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:41,760 Speaker 2: two things going on here. You throw yourself into a 123 00:07:41,800 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 2: project and you are devoted to it with a burning passion, 124 00:07:45,080 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 2: perhaps you're young, and that goes on for five years 125 00:07:48,000 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 2: or so, and you begin to get weary of it. 126 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,840 Speaker 2: And what's interesting is you can pass it on to 127 00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:56,680 Speaker 2: the next wave of enthusiasts that take the cause up 128 00:07:56,720 --> 00:07:59,240 Speaker 2: from you and you can relax a little. The other 129 00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 2: thing to say is none of us are getting out 130 00:08:02,000 --> 00:08:05,280 Speaker 2: of this moment in history alive. Even the youngest of 131 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:08,320 Speaker 2: your listeners are going to be living with this their 132 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 2: entire life. So you have to give up on the 133 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:14,440 Speaker 2: concept of success as a finality. And you don't want 134 00:08:14,440 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 2: an end to your project anyway. But when it comes 135 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 2: to climate change, taking billions of tons of CO two 136 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,280 Speaker 2: out of the atmosphere and sequestering them back on earth, 137 00:08:23,680 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 2: that's going to take decades no matter how we do it, 138 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:30,440 Speaker 2: because it's so much physical stuff. And during that time, 139 00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:33,239 Speaker 2: there's going to be political defeats, there's going to be betrayals, 140 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:35,200 Speaker 2: there's going to be people who don't get it. There's 141 00:08:35,200 --> 00:08:38,520 Speaker 2: going to be people who are fighting madly to destroy 142 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,640 Speaker 2: the goodness of your project, which is evident to you. 143 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 2: And in all that you just have to say, look, 144 00:08:44,280 --> 00:08:47,040 Speaker 2: this is the work I've been I've been handed this 145 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,440 Speaker 2: moment in history. I can't escape it. I'm going to 146 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 2: do the work and not worry too much about seeing success. 147 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,880 Speaker 2: In my lifetime. The success has often come in the 148 00:08:56,920 --> 00:09:00,400 Speaker 2: midst of a gigantic cloud of failures that are more 149 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:07,440 Speaker 2: obvious and yet under the surface churn, some quite successful 150 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:11,440 Speaker 2: things can be happening, and for sure, in our climate 151 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:14,840 Speaker 2: change struggle, some really successful things have been happening. 152 00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: I want to come to successes because they are real. 153 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:21,000 Speaker 1: But let's stick with the failures and maybe even look 154 00:09:21,040 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: at one other strand of failure, where the attempt from 155 00:09:26,679 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: certain political factions, Donald Trump being one of them, not 156 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: the only one, of taking policies, activities, positions that are 157 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: irrational from almost every perspective you can see, perhaps the 158 00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: one self interested perspective maybe, but there is no logical 159 00:09:46,000 --> 00:09:48,599 Speaker 1: way in which you can try and combine all the 160 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: myriad of things that Donald Trump and many right wing 161 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: politicians around the world have done to try and slow 162 00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:59,480 Speaker 1: down climate efforts. In the face of that kind of 163 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:03,320 Speaker 1: irrational how do you build on solutions that are meant 164 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: and that have to be created on a logical rational basis. 165 00:10:08,320 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 2: Well, that's hard. It's hard to understand the irrationality and 166 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:20,680 Speaker 2: explain it. So let's just say that if you are 167 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 2: caught up in your own mortal mind and realize that 168 00:10:25,040 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 2: you're going to die, there's a certain type of personality 169 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 2: that says, therefore, the rest of the world has to die. Also, 170 00:10:31,880 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 2: nothing gets to survive me because I'm the only thing 171 00:10:34,480 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 2: that matters. And this kind of fundamental narcissism. The syndrome 172 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:41,800 Speaker 2: is called the girder Damerung, the twilight of the gods. 173 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 2: The gods know they're going down. This is at the 174 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 2: end of Wagner, but it's very common in storytelling around 175 00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 2: the world back into the Palelithic. When the powerful ones 176 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 2: know they're going down, they try to take everything down 177 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 2: with them in an irrational emotional hatred that others might 178 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 2: continue on in their absence. So this is the death drive. 179 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,360 Speaker 2: I mean, Freud would call this the thanotropic death drive, 180 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,199 Speaker 2: but you can also just say that it's a kind 181 00:11:07,200 --> 00:11:11,439 Speaker 2: of a cult behavior where the followers of a leader 182 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,760 Speaker 2: want to die with that leader, and there's a lot 183 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 2: of death in that motivation, and that's the only thing 184 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 2: that explains it. Because you're harming your own you harm 185 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 2: your children, you harm the future generations, you don't care 186 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,400 Speaker 2: you do it anyway. The malevolence involved is quite ugly. 187 00:11:30,200 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 2: So you have to admit that that element in the 188 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,200 Speaker 2: human mind and the totality of the human subconscious mind 189 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,440 Speaker 2: exists to a certain extent. In all of us, but 190 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:45,000 Speaker 2: it's prominent in some pathological cases. If one of them 191 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 2: accidentally happens to become president at a moment where we 192 00:11:48,320 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 2: really need speed in climate change action, that's bad and 193 00:11:52,360 --> 00:11:54,880 Speaker 2: we're in a bad moment. You cannot deny it. But 194 00:11:54,960 --> 00:11:58,240 Speaker 2: on the other hand, people come and go and they 195 00:11:58,240 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 2: are not going to be able to kill the future. 196 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 2: So we had genocide equicide for a while. I was 197 00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:05,960 Speaker 2: when Trump became president. I was talking about this attempt 198 00:12:05,960 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 2: at future side. I'm going to kill the future. You 199 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,120 Speaker 2: cannot kill the future. It's coming whether you like it 200 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:17,600 Speaker 2: or not. And the future that is inevitable by the 201 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,839 Speaker 2: force of history as it is right now, is in 202 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:24,559 Speaker 2: fact going to be more diverse, more inclusive, more equitable, 203 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,480 Speaker 2: because it couldn't get less equitable than it is now, 204 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:30,080 Speaker 2: and a balance and a pendulum swing is going to happen. 205 00:12:30,440 --> 00:12:33,720 Speaker 2: It couldn't it possibly get less diverse because of simple 206 00:12:33,800 --> 00:12:36,160 Speaker 2: demographics of who's alive on this earth and who's going 207 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 2: to be alive in the times to come. So you 208 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:46,760 Speaker 2: can see the kind of parochial, jealous and vindictive aspect 209 00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:49,959 Speaker 2: of this future side. But you can't kill the future. 210 00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:53,199 Speaker 2: So eventually the tide will pass these people by. They 211 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 2: will in fact die. The next moment in history will 212 00:12:55,880 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 2: be struggling still to make a decent civilization that's in 213 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:01,320 Speaker 2: balces with its biosphere. 214 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: And this future side idea, I think hasn't been talked 215 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: about enough just because of the sheer amount of near 216 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:13,360 Speaker 1: present damage that's being done. But the future side is real. 217 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 1: There are cancelations of satellites, there are cancelations of climate 218 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 1: science programs, there are cancelations of health programs, the cancelations 219 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 1: of economic data that they don't want you to see. 220 00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:30,199 Speaker 1: They don't want you to know what the future would 221 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:32,800 Speaker 1: look like, even though we have the ability to at 222 00:13:32,880 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: least get a peak at it and maybe prepare for 223 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:36,480 Speaker 1: what's coming our way. 224 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's kind of astonishing. It's as if to say, 225 00:13:40,080 --> 00:13:44,000 Speaker 2: since we are walking into a minefield, let's poke at 226 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 2: our eyes. Well, this is not the right response. The 227 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:51,880 Speaker 2: better to have knowledge, to have that eyesight to see 228 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,840 Speaker 2: how to navigate a dangerous future. So this is a 229 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 2: part of the death cult aspect of it, that there's 230 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,320 Speaker 2: a malevolence to this that is destructive in the extreme. 231 00:14:01,720 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 2: What I point out as being the worst of all 232 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 2: is an attack on medical research, when those very same 233 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 2: people making the attack, the moment they feel the slight 234 00:14:09,600 --> 00:14:12,199 Speaker 2: spick sick, they will run to a doctor. They will 235 00:14:12,280 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 2: run to a scientist and say, please, can you save 236 00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:18,680 Speaker 2: my life. So this is a real test. When you 237 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,840 Speaker 2: are scared and you fear for your own life, you 238 00:14:22,960 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 2: run to a scientist. And so that shows what you 239 00:14:25,920 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 2: truly believe in, no matter what you say, no matter 240 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 2: what politics you espouse. When push comes to shove and 241 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:34,240 Speaker 2: you're scared, you run to science. And then if there 242 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 2: are people attacking science, it's not as if their wealth 243 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 2: is going to buy them out of the situation they're creating, 244 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 2: because you can't buy a cure that doesn't exist. And 245 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:50,480 Speaker 2: so when you kill medical research budgets, you're killing human 246 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 2: lives or you're killing human longevity. I myself would have 247 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,040 Speaker 2: been dead twice if it weren't for medical research, and 248 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,720 Speaker 2: I'm going to say that's true of almost everybody my age, 249 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:04,040 Speaker 2: because we've extended human lifetime. So I medical research I 250 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:07,960 Speaker 2: once calculated, and believe me, this is completely a heuristic device. 251 00:15:08,640 --> 00:15:11,480 Speaker 2: I would love to see the numbers confirmed that every 252 00:15:11,560 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 2: ten billion dollars spent on medical research extends the lifetime 253 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:19,120 Speaker 2: of everybody alive on Earth, all eight billion of us, 254 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:23,240 Speaker 2: by about one month on average. Just actuarial tables. You 255 00:15:23,320 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 2: might not get that month, but you might get ten years. 256 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 2: And so this killing of ten billion dollars of medical research, 257 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 2: which is one of the first acts of the Trump administration, 258 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 2: well eight billion months is six hundred and sixty seven 259 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:40,560 Speaker 2: million years of human consciousness that has been knocked on 260 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 2: the head. That's quite a massive crime. And it's disguised 261 00:15:50,080 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 2: in numbers, it's disguised in budgets. But when you think 262 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 2: about how we really live on this planet as biological beings, 263 00:15:56,440 --> 00:15:59,320 Speaker 2: to interfere with our knowledge of how our bodies work 264 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,479 Speaker 2: and how the world works is profoundly destructive. 265 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: There has to be an answer to Trump, which is 266 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: currently being thought about on the American left among the 267 00:16:10,000 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: Democratic Party. One of the ideas that has taken perhaps 268 00:16:15,880 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: hold among a larger portion of that class of people 269 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,800 Speaker 1: is the idea of abundance, This idea that what we 270 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:28,360 Speaker 1: need to do right now, what environmentalists have actually gotten wrong, 271 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: is to stop building things, and we have to go 272 00:16:32,640 --> 00:16:35,200 Speaker 1: back to building things, and we need to get rid 273 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: of regulations that are stopping building things. We need to 274 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: bring abundant clean energy, we need to bring abundant housing, 275 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:46,200 Speaker 1: and that it is something that America is capable of doing. 276 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,840 Speaker 1: And you just need to sort the system out in 277 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:54,160 Speaker 1: these places, mostly through cutting regulations to get to this future. 278 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: For someone who grew up in India who now lives 279 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 1: in the UK, who looks at the world and sees 280 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 1: that the world's richest economy is going through a political 281 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: crisis and that the answer is abundance is a bit off. 282 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: There is something awfully wrong that you are saying the 283 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:16,520 Speaker 1: richest economy in the world, the solution to the problem 284 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:21,280 Speaker 1: is to actually have more abundance, more resources. How do 285 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,400 Speaker 1: you think abundance is an idea works as an antidote 286 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:27,080 Speaker 1: to Trump? And if it isn't the right idea, what 287 00:17:27,160 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 1: is the right idea? 288 00:17:28,280 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 2: I don't think it works. I don't like this term abundance. 289 00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 2: I think it's a category error or a false categorization. 290 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:42,160 Speaker 2: As you point out, America richest society in all history. 291 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:46,719 Speaker 2: But let's say, what if the word was adequacy, what 292 00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 2: if the word was equality? And then there's an old 293 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 2: English saying that I quite love enough is as good 294 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,320 Speaker 2: as a feast. You have to remember that it was 295 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:03,680 Speaker 2: hungry people that made up that saying, and enough is adequacy. 296 00:18:03,960 --> 00:18:09,080 Speaker 2: If you have food, water, shelter, clothing, healthcare, education, which 297 00:18:09,119 --> 00:18:12,600 Speaker 2: is requiring also electricity, If you have those at an 298 00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:17,399 Speaker 2: adequate level, which can be relatively as modest as the 299 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,920 Speaker 2: human body itself, you're okay. You don't need abundance beyond that. 300 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 2: Then you get into excess, luxury, wealth beyond need and 301 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,920 Speaker 2: all these crazy areas that is very common in American life. 302 00:18:31,080 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 2: And also abundance that the idea that we don't have 303 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:37,680 Speaker 2: it because of regulations that environmentalists impose. This is really 304 00:18:37,760 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 2: a blaming of the victim or a blaming of the 305 00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:44,719 Speaker 2: party that is lost. And also to the extent that 306 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:49,359 Speaker 2: environmental regulations have won, we have clean water, we have 307 00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 2: soil that isn't poisoned by pesticides. The regulations have been important. 308 00:18:55,760 --> 00:18:58,960 Speaker 2: And you know the thing that is used by this 309 00:18:59,320 --> 00:19:03,640 Speaker 2: abundance crowd that the Empire State Building was built in 310 00:19:03,680 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 2: a year, which is really kind of remarkable. It's also 311 00:19:07,080 --> 00:19:09,720 Speaker 2: true that about fifty people died in that effort, and 312 00:19:09,800 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 2: so the lack of regulation there helped to go fast. 313 00:19:13,440 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 2: But it was dangerous and it killed people. Is that 314 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 2: the kind of abundance we want to go back to. 315 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:19,800 Speaker 2: I don't think so. I don't even think that people 316 00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,560 Speaker 2: promulgating this notion of abundance they haven't thought it through. 317 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 2: They've thought, oh, if only those regulations were there, we 318 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 2: would have high speed rail. A. It would be first 319 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,760 Speaker 2: good to just have decent low speed rail, and B. 320 00:19:35,000 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 2: Those regulations were often imposed for a reason to reduce 321 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:43,880 Speaker 2: damage to humans, and so it isn't a trivial thing. 322 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:49,080 Speaker 2: There can be redundant or fossilized regulations that are no 323 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:53,080 Speaker 2: longer adequate. There can be too much red tape. There's 324 00:19:53,080 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 2: always room for clarity and for improvements in system. But 325 00:19:55,920 --> 00:19:58,760 Speaker 2: to take that as a primary principle is so niggling 326 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,240 Speaker 2: and small minded, and also getting the wrong end of 327 00:20:02,280 --> 00:20:06,520 Speaker 2: the stick. What you want is adequacy and also equality. 328 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:09,120 Speaker 2: There should be I've been saying this for years as 329 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:11,520 Speaker 2: part of a utopian project, and it's been enacted in 330 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:15,159 Speaker 2: history a few times before that there should be a 331 00:20:15,200 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 2: floor that you can't fall under. There should be a 332 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 2: ceiling you can't crash through in terms of human wealth. 333 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 2: So adequacy is the floor. Nobody should be living in 334 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 2: em miserated situations, and right now about a billion to 335 00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:34,399 Speaker 2: two billion people are This claim that we've solved the 336 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:37,560 Speaker 2: problem of poverty is the claim of rich people in 337 00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 2: cultures that don't look around. So adequate floor and then 338 00:20:42,359 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 2: the ceiling, Well, it can be kind of high, but 339 00:20:44,680 --> 00:20:47,359 Speaker 2: it doesn't have to be too high before it becomes ridiculous. 340 00:20:47,880 --> 00:20:52,840 Speaker 2: If what's ten times adequacy, that's ten adequacies. What do 341 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,320 Speaker 2: you do with ten adequacies? It's luxury beyond belief. So 342 00:20:56,359 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 2: the rage ratio should be one that is a floor 343 00:20:59,720 --> 00:21:04,440 Speaker 2: of adequacy, and then a maximum of ten times that. Well, 344 00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 2: right now the wage ratio in the United States is 345 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 2: one to one thy five hundred, So they're off by 346 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 2: a couple magnitudes of what's really right, what's really just. 347 00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 2: And so I revert to this notion that a floor 348 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:25,040 Speaker 2: and a ceiling to the human material wealth is a 349 00:21:25,040 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 2: good thing. And it would also since we are talking 350 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:30,360 Speaker 2: about climate change, it would be good for the biosphere too, 351 00:21:30,520 --> 00:21:35,000 Speaker 2: because it's precisely the people above the ceiling and below 352 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 2: the floor that are hardest on the biosphere, the poor 353 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 2: because they cut down the forest, because they got to 354 00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,360 Speaker 2: cook the meal that night. It sickens them and it's 355 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 2: bad for the planet, but they have to do it 356 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:48,119 Speaker 2: to stay alive. The rich hyper consumption and burning a 357 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 2: whole lot of carbon just to play around, and they 358 00:21:50,480 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 2: could get just as much fun out of life. And 359 00:21:53,440 --> 00:21:55,320 Speaker 2: I've proved this in my own life, and I'll take 360 00:21:55,359 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 2: them out to show it by going down to the 361 00:21:57,880 --> 00:22:00,359 Speaker 2: very local park and throwing pebbles at a at a 362 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:02,280 Speaker 2: bottle on the other side of the stream, see if 363 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:04,359 Speaker 2: you can hit it or not, or going for a run. 364 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:07,960 Speaker 2: In other words, the very basic physical pleasures of being 365 00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 2: an animal on this planet. You don't need millions to 366 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 2: support that. So the people above the ceiling, the people 367 00:22:15,359 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 2: below the floor are a problem. If we could rectify that, 368 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 2: we would a lot of things would come back into balance. 369 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: After the break, I asked Stan why increasing extreme weather 370 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: events don't seem to be translating into increased climate action. 371 00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,000 Speaker 1: If you're enjoying this episode, please take a moment to 372 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:40,120 Speaker 1: rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. Recently, 373 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: Qualum wrote huge fan of the show. I listen every week. 374 00:22:43,840 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 1: Keeps my climate anxiety at bay. Thanks Qualum. If we 375 00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 1: leave the extremes of the politics aside. Yes, and we 376 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:11,439 Speaker 1: look at the real economy. There are still struggles in 377 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:16,919 Speaker 1: the real economy that have slowed down climate action. People's 378 00:23:18,080 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 1: wallets are a bit thinner, inflation is higher, the feeling 379 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:26,879 Speaker 1: of security is going away. Yes, and so when you 380 00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:30,120 Speaker 1: talk about climate change, which is here and has impacts 381 00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:36,160 Speaker 1: around the world today but marginal relative to your everyday living, Yes, 382 00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:38,360 Speaker 1: what is it that we need to do to try 383 00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: and convince people that what they are going to see 384 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 1: in climate action is in their benefit now and in 385 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 1: the future, and that it is worthwhile to act on 386 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:53,480 Speaker 1: it now and thus elect the kind of leaders that 387 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: would understand the challenge and the future that we need 388 00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:58,600 Speaker 1: to build. 389 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 2: Well, first, you want to say that this is right 390 00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:08,400 Speaker 2: that when you're in the precariat paying for that month's rent, 391 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 2: when you're really working paycheck to paycheck, and month month 392 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,879 Speaker 2: is so overwriting and consideration that if you're asked to 393 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,960 Speaker 2: pay more that you don't have in order to help 394 00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:24,680 Speaker 2: the situation a decade from now, you simply can't do it. 395 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 2: So it needs to be a collective response that has 396 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:29,879 Speaker 2: to do with government action, because what you call the 397 00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:34,159 Speaker 2: real economy is an artificial construct made by law. The 398 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,320 Speaker 2: laws could be changed such that instead of paying the 399 00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 2: green premium, you got compensated for doing the right thing 400 00:24:41,680 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 2: for the climate, to the point where, and marvelously, this 401 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:49,040 Speaker 2: is coming true in semi accidental ways that have to 402 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 2: do with technological advancements. It's cheaper to do the right 403 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,280 Speaker 2: thing than to do the wrong thing when it comes to, 404 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 2: for instance, buying energy for yourself. And so this is 405 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 2: a great illustration. The solar powered industries were first subsidized 406 00:25:06,840 --> 00:25:10,639 Speaker 2: by governments to do the experimental work, and then rolled 407 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 2: out when it became clear that these worked very, very 408 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 2: well and began to change the world with a startling rapidity. 409 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 2: And this is one of the great signs of our time. 410 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 2: That means that when you come to a cop and 411 00:25:24,160 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 2: you see all of the broken promises, you're only seeing 412 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:29,120 Speaker 2: part of the story, because you're also seeing a world 413 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:33,440 Speaker 2: in which clean energy is cheaper than new fossil fuel energy. 414 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:38,679 Speaker 2: And so a transformation has happened that is partly structural. 415 00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 2: It is in the real economy, but the real economy 416 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:43,879 Speaker 2: being a matter of laws, you tweak the laws, and 417 00:25:43,920 --> 00:25:48,240 Speaker 2: if you tweak the ways in which we evaluate success. 418 00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,560 Speaker 2: In other words, what's profitable. Well, if you include a 419 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:58,480 Speaker 2: ten year definition as part of the baseline evaluation itself, 420 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 2: then you begin to get new forms of accounting in 421 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,439 Speaker 2: effect that say that doing the right thing for the 422 00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:12,880 Speaker 2: biosphere is actually the most economical thing, because we've made 423 00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:13,360 Speaker 2: it that way. 424 00:26:13,880 --> 00:26:18,360 Speaker 1: And imagination is a wonderful thing, you know. When the 425 00:26:18,400 --> 00:26:22,040 Speaker 1: solar panel was invented, the imagination was, one day we'll 426 00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:24,199 Speaker 1: be able to capture the power of the sun and 427 00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,840 Speaker 1: bring it to the people. That was in nineteen fifty four. 428 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: In twenty twenty five, that's reality. But that imagination took 429 00:26:31,440 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: a while to get there, and the imagination was at 430 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: least in the near past, to try and create a 431 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:41,600 Speaker 1: form of energy that won't be polluting, that would be 432 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:47,120 Speaker 1: available for free whenever the sun is out. And yet 433 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:52,240 Speaker 1: the benefits that have come from unlocking solar power are 434 00:26:52,280 --> 00:26:55,359 Speaker 1: things that people didn't imagine. So if you were in 435 00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,760 Speaker 1: the path of Hurricane Melissa and you had solar panels 436 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: on your roof in Jamaica, you had power after the 437 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 1: storm went away, and you could bring your neighbors to 438 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: your home and charge your phones and get the basic 439 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 1: needs sorted. If you are in Pakistan and cannot afford 440 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:17,639 Speaker 1: liquified natural gas because the prices are too high. But 441 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 1: you can buy a sole panelfol your roof in a 442 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,480 Speaker 1: country that's heating up too fast and you need air 443 00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 1: conditioning right when the sun is on the top of 444 00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:31,280 Speaker 1: your head. It provides climate adaptation in a zero carbon way. Yes, 445 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,399 Speaker 1: what can you do to help people unlock how to 446 00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:36,920 Speaker 1: imagine better futures? 447 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,840 Speaker 2: For me, as a science fiction writer, what I've always 448 00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 2: defined that as is finding new stories that come out 449 00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:51,919 Speaker 2: of scientific progress. So this is a perpetual fountain of 450 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,639 Speaker 2: new stories, and there aren't that many new stories to 451 00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:58,160 Speaker 2: be told, given that there's tens and thousands of stories 452 00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 2: told every year by all of us. Find a new 453 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 2: story is like a phoenix egg or something. And yet 454 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 2: the sciences are producing all these new developments all the 455 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 2: time that can be turned into stories, And to me, 456 00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,040 Speaker 2: that's one of the great glories of being a science 457 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:16,800 Speaker 2: fiction writer. So in this situation, and if you add 458 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 2: to that the idea of utopia, which I will just 459 00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,399 Speaker 2: say is simply a future society that works better than 460 00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 2: this one right now, which ought not to be impossible, 461 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 2: then you begin to think, well, if we did this, 462 00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 2: say we did progressive taxation, and that the more money 463 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:36,360 Speaker 2: you made, the more in taxes you paid on those 464 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 2: higher amounts. Well, this is actually something out of the 465 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,960 Speaker 2: past that if it was brought back again, you might 466 00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 2: be able to decrease inequality. In other words, everybody works hard, 467 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 2: and so everybody in society ought to have a certain 468 00:28:53,480 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 2: amount of security that's paid forth through the public process 469 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 2: of government of the collective. And if everybody felt kind 470 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,760 Speaker 2: of secure what I'm describing here as a kind of 471 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:09,640 Speaker 2: social democracy, really, but it could be pushed. That's better 472 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:13,160 Speaker 2: society than now, where everybody feels precarious, and that's their 473 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:16,360 Speaker 2: right to feel precarious, because one health crisis and they 474 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 2: could be bankrupt and out of a job, and that's 475 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 2: not a good feeling to have. So everybody's mildly scared 476 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,880 Speaker 2: or completely terrified. But it doesn't have to be that way, 477 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 2: and you can easily see the ways out of it, 478 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 2: and some of them are old ways brought back. Then 479 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:33,040 Speaker 2: they have to be argued for and people have to 480 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 2: be persuaded that it's a good idea in a world 481 00:29:36,120 --> 00:29:40,000 Speaker 2: of careless and foolish billionaires. The idea that there shouldn't 482 00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,320 Speaker 2: be billionaires is not such a radical idea. These are 483 00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:48,960 Speaker 2: not geniuses. These are rich people and often making remarkably 484 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,920 Speaker 2: heavy carbon footprint and saying foolish things and interfering in 485 00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 2: the political process by buying politicians. Maybe progressive taxation would 486 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 2: solve many and many of these problems. And it was 487 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:04,959 Speaker 2: true right after World War two. And these were people 488 00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 2: who had seen World War two, they had lived World 489 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 2: War two, and they said, rich people are implicated in 490 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 2: that whole war happening. I ordinary citizen did not cause 491 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 2: that war, but somehow rich people seem to have been 492 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 2: part of the cause, and so we don't want them anymore. 493 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 2: And in the nineteen fifties was a completely different structure 494 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 2: of feeling, and progressive taxation was quite intense, including amongst 495 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 2: in the United States, a Republican or you can just say, 496 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 2: conservative governments would have progressive taxation as much as liberal ones. 497 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:39,720 Speaker 2: So social democracy was kind of a thing, and then 498 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 2: it got a clawed back. Whenever there's a commons, there 499 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 2: is enclosure. So if you could imagine government and the 500 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 2: sharing of a by way of government of what society 501 00:30:52,320 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 2: creates for itself amongst all the people creating it, if 502 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:59,040 Speaker 2: that's a sort of a commons an abstract comments rather 503 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 2: than a piece of land. There will be enclosure. People 504 00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 2: will be cutting away at it, trying to take private 505 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 2: profit out of the public good. And so in the 506 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:12,479 Speaker 2: neoliberal era from nineteen eighty to about what twenty eight 507 00:31:12,560 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 2: or twenty twenty, about forty years of private over public. Well, 508 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 2: now I think the tide has turned because people have 509 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:23,520 Speaker 2: seen how bad it's gotten. Inequality is terrible, the biosphere 510 00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 2: that we rely on is being wrecked for short term 511 00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 2: profit taking. All of that needs to change, and people 512 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,280 Speaker 2: are ready for new ideas, but sometimes there's old ideas 513 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:34,880 Speaker 2: that are perfectly fit to purpose. 514 00:31:35,440 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 1: One trigger for that backlash against the rich was the 515 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,680 Speaker 1: World War, which was terrible on so many levels for 516 00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: people and for the biosphere. Your book Ministry for the 517 00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 1: Future starts with something like that as a terrible event 518 00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: happening in a heat wave in India, killing millions of people, 519 00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,400 Speaker 1: which leads a lot of people to then act. There 520 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: has been this idea that this is what will unlock 521 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: climate action because extreme weather events, really bad ones are 522 00:32:06,800 --> 00:32:09,760 Speaker 1: here and once people see it, they cannot unsee it, 523 00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:13,960 Speaker 1: and that will act. It hasn't translated into reality. Are 524 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: we still waiting for a bad one or is there 525 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 1: a different way in which we could trigger action. 526 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 2: I think it has translated into reality. We haven't had 527 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:26,920 Speaker 2: a mass heat death, which is all too possible. I 528 00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:30,680 Speaker 2: live in fear of that. We did have COVID eight 529 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 2: million people died. That's one on every thousand people in 530 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 2: this planet. That isn't odds. You would like if you 531 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:40,560 Speaker 2: were in a game of Russian Roulette. There one out 532 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,040 Speaker 2: of every thousand persons died. And we were traumatized as 533 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 2: a society, as a global society by twenty twenty through 534 00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:52,160 Speaker 2: about twenty twenty three, which is actually years difficult to 535 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,800 Speaker 2: remember because they're blurred by the weirdness of it and 536 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 2: the trauma, and there's always repression. But now we're different. 537 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,560 Speaker 2: And I would say this having written about climate change 538 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 2: since about nineteen ninety five, and I wrote Ministry for 539 00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 2: the Future in twenty nineteen in a state of anger 540 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,440 Speaker 2: and inflicted. This fictional mass death is a way to 541 00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 2: make people pay attention. Well, in reality, COVID did it 542 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,000 Speaker 2: for me, and the attitude towards climate change and biosphere action, 543 00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:25,200 Speaker 2: the reality that the biosphere can effect kill people in 544 00:33:25,240 --> 00:33:30,160 Speaker 2: rec civilization known to all, and so the reaction has 545 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:34,480 Speaker 2: been strong. People are paying attention, there's strong pulling, there's 546 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:40,880 Speaker 2: strong support for all of us doing more to protect 547 00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,920 Speaker 2: the biosphere. We've had these thirty by thirty protection acts, 548 00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,520 Speaker 2: We've had all kinds of things appear that I would 549 00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 2: have said were completely utopian just in the year twenty nineteen. 550 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 2: The problem is that there's churn. There's also the failures. 551 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,240 Speaker 2: Things are going too slowly compared to what would be optimal, 552 00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 2: but they're still so you can't just say, oh my gosh, 553 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:06,400 Speaker 2: we've stuck our head in the sand, especially when the 554 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 2: we is global humanity. I mean, some people are fighting 555 00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 2: every day to make a better world. It's their project 556 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:17,920 Speaker 2: to get to a dodgeer mass extinction event and to 557 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:21,160 Speaker 2: create a healthy, long term relationship with the biosphere for 558 00:34:21,280 --> 00:34:22,160 Speaker 2: human beings. 559 00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:26,200 Speaker 1: One utopian idea that I want us to imagine is 560 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:33,239 Speaker 1: to think about a world in which distributed energy becomes ubiquitous. 561 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 1: And I am a journalist, so I have an imagination 562 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:40,680 Speaker 1: of a near future because I'm seeing too much of 563 00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 1: the reality, and so I can't extend it for our future. 564 00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:47,080 Speaker 1: But in the near future, this reality could come to pass, 565 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:54,080 Speaker 1: and it has implications of all sorts. One phrase that 566 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:58,200 Speaker 1: I've heard use is energy is destiny. That countries that 567 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 1: are able to control the dominant form of energy are 568 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,719 Speaker 1: able to wield geopolitical power. It's true with coal for 569 00:35:06,800 --> 00:35:10,080 Speaker 1: Britain in the nineteenth century, has been true for America 570 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,719 Speaker 1: with oil in the twentieth century, and now even in 571 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 1: the twenty first century. But with solar and wind and 572 00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: hydropower and geothermal, there is an ability to try and 573 00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:25,560 Speaker 1: make that energy distributed and democratic. What kind of world 574 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 1: do you think we would have geopolitically if that reality 575 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:32,760 Speaker 1: were to happen. 576 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:37,840 Speaker 2: Well, first, I want to clarify the technological aspect of 577 00:35:37,880 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 2: this scenario that you describe, because it doesn't have to 578 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 2: be individualized where each person has a solar panel that 579 00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:49,360 Speaker 2: is like an umbrella that powers their life. What you 580 00:35:49,480 --> 00:35:52,359 Speaker 2: want is that the collective, which is to say, all 581 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:57,239 Speaker 2: of us and as a public good, has access to 582 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,319 Speaker 2: electrical power that is cleanly generated and is cheap enough 583 00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 2: for the individual that they can power a life that 584 00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:08,879 Speaker 2: has the pleasures of modernity. And that's a little bit 585 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 2: less electricity than people are imagining, because a lot of 586 00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 2: stuff that really is fulfilling for human beings has nothing 587 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:23,120 Speaker 2: to do with your energy supply, but healthy food, light 588 00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:28,680 Speaker 2: at night. It's true that electricity has augmented our paleolithic 589 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,719 Speaker 2: minds and bodies in ways that everybody enjoys. It isn't 590 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:35,640 Speaker 2: very much. But if it was owned by all of 591 00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 2: us together and then you had to buy, you bought 592 00:36:39,960 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 2: it at what would effectively be not a subsidized price, 593 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:46,920 Speaker 2: but a fair price that represents how much it costs 594 00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 2: to make it parceled out, so that there isn't some 595 00:36:50,160 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 2: private property a person or party making enormous profits out 596 00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:58,240 Speaker 2: of something that everybody needs and does. This is called rent, 597 00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,640 Speaker 2: I mean the economic everybody knows what rent is for 598 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 2: your apartment, but rent as an economic thing is just 599 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,480 Speaker 2: middlemen who take value, sucking it out along the way. 600 00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 2: And so when Kaines said there should be the euthanasia 601 00:37:14,680 --> 00:37:18,400 Speaker 2: of the rent to your class, he didn't mean landlords 602 00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 2: in particular. He meant all of those people who managed 603 00:37:23,680 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 2: to suck value out of the system without doing anything 604 00:37:28,080 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 2: except owning it along the way. So here, public over 605 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:35,320 Speaker 2: private is a primary principle. And when it comes to energy, 606 00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 2: we now have the technology to create energy that doesn't 607 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 2: burn carbon into the atmosphere. It does a little bit, 608 00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,680 Speaker 2: but you get so much more electricity back for it 609 00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:49,480 Speaker 2: that it becomes what we call clean energy systems, and that, 610 00:37:49,719 --> 00:37:52,319 Speaker 2: of course is a more detailed discussion to have. But 611 00:37:52,600 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 2: once you've got that, then you begin to think, what 612 00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:59,879 Speaker 2: are the other necessities that should be equally well distributed? 613 00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 2: Democratic housing, food, clean water, sewage systems. All these things 614 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:12,200 Speaker 2: need to be public goods and something that everybody owns 615 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 2: and pays for together, rather than a private individual's sucking 616 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,359 Speaker 2: away by way of the fact that you need it, 617 00:38:21,960 --> 00:38:24,440 Speaker 2: that you have to have it to have a decent life, 618 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,080 Speaker 2: or even to stay alive at all. Well, this needs 619 00:38:28,120 --> 00:38:31,440 Speaker 2: to be taken into consideration in the political process, and 620 00:38:31,480 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 2: so you'll get to again a situation where the public 621 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 2: good takes precedents over private interests. 622 00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 1: Thank you Stan, thank you Auckshot, and thank you for 623 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:49,839 Speaker 1: listening to zero. Now for the sound of. 624 00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 3: The week four three two one ignition and lift off 625 00:38:57,400 --> 00:38:59,880 Speaker 3: Falcon nine ghost SpaceX goes to analytics b. 626 00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:10,839 Speaker 2: S six B rising, extending nearly four decades of the 627 00:39:10,840 --> 00:39:12,920 Speaker 2: precise sea level record from space. 628 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 1: That is the sound of the European Space Agencies Sentinel 629 00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 1: six B satellite launched aboard a SpaceX Falcon nine rocket 630 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: in November. The satellite will continue a decades long mission 631 00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:29,920 Speaker 1: to track global sea levels, a key measure of climate change. 632 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,320 Speaker 1: If you like this episode, please take a moment to 633 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:35,920 Speaker 1: read and review the show on Apple Podcasts and Spotify. 634 00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:39,400 Speaker 1: This episode was produced by Oscar boyd Our. Theme music 635 00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:43,400 Speaker 1: is composed by Wonderly Special Thanks to Samersati, Moses Andem, 636 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:47,520 Speaker 1: Laura Milan, and Sharon chen i'm Akshadrati Back soon.