WEBVTT - Can Governors Stop You From Going to Vacation Homes?

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<v Speaker 1>You're listening to Bloomberg Law with June Grasso from Bloomberg Radio.

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<v Speaker 1>It may now take more than a long car ride

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<v Speaker 1>to get you to your second home. It may now

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<v Speaker 1>take more than a long car ride to get to

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<v Speaker 1>your second home. In some states, it may take a lawsuit.

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<v Speaker 1>In Michigan, a state with some of the strictest stay

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<v Speaker 1>at home measures in the country, Governor Gretchen Whitmer has

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<v Speaker 1>also been traveled to second homes. The fact of the

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<v Speaker 1>matter is it's still too dangerous to have people just

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<v Speaker 1>out and about unnecessarily so, and so we have a

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<v Speaker 1>pretty strict to stay at home order. Michigan has the

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<v Speaker 1>third highest um number of deaths from COVID nineteen and

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<v Speaker 1>we're not the third biggest steak. Lawsuits have already been

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<v Speaker 1>filed by owners of second homes, claiming a violation of

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<v Speaker 1>their fundamental liberty and their rights to do process and

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<v Speaker 1>equal protection. My guest is David super, a professor at

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<v Speaker 1>Georgetown Law School. So can the governor forbid residents from

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<v Speaker 1>traveling to a second home. Generally yes. Governors have very

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<v Speaker 1>sweeping power to deal with public health emergencies, which this is.

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<v Speaker 1>State law varies from one place to another. But in general, states,

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<v Speaker 1>public health codes give the governor very broad authority to

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<v Speaker 1>respond to emergencies. Governors are the primary people responsible for

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<v Speaker 1>dealing with domestic health problems in our system, not the president,

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<v Speaker 1>and really more governors than mayors or county officials as well,

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<v Speaker 1>So in most states, the governor does have sweeping authority

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<v Speaker 1>to respond to a crisis like this. Some second home

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<v Speaker 1>owners have already filed suit against the governor's ban on

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<v Speaker 1>travel to their second homes. How strong are those claims.

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<v Speaker 1>I've read the complaint and I think it's extremely weak.

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<v Speaker 1>This is something that the Supreme Court has said public

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<v Speaker 1>officials have a lot of authority to do when there's

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<v Speaker 1>a genuine emergency, and there's no question that this is

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<v Speaker 1>a serious emergency. This isn't something the state does all

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<v Speaker 1>the time. I'm not aware that Michigan has ever done this,

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<v Speaker 1>so I think a court would give them wide lattitude.

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<v Speaker 1>Do they come out and say I need to rest

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<v Speaker 1>at my second home. Is there any substantial reason why

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<v Speaker 1>they have to go to the second home. No, they

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<v Speaker 1>say that it's a pleasant place to be, that it

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<v Speaker 1>provides rest, but from the hustle and bustle of law practice.

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<v Speaker 1>My guess is that for most lawyers, the hustle and

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<v Speaker 1>bustle has died down considerably. But they describe their second

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<v Speaker 1>homes as pleasant places. But they don't describe anything fundamental

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<v Speaker 1>about a need to go there or suggest that they're

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<v Speaker 1>being harmed in any deep way other than not getting

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<v Speaker 1>the benefit of their second homes and some other places

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<v Speaker 1>that they want to travel to. They complain, for example,

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<v Speaker 1>they're not allowed to go to gun stores. In most states,

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<v Speaker 1>gun stores are considered essential businesses. In fact, the n

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<v Speaker 1>r A is suing New York because it doesn't consider

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<v Speaker 1>gun stores essential, and Michigan apparently doesn't either. But again,

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<v Speaker 1>the Supreme Court has given state's enormous flexibility to respond

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<v Speaker 1>to pending emergencies, and indeed of upheld measures much more

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<v Speaker 1>stringent than these, if they were tailored to fit an emergency.

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<v Speaker 1>The fact that someone thinks the gun store is or

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<v Speaker 1>is not critical and and that state disagree on that

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<v Speaker 1>is not going to persuade a judge to second guess

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<v Speaker 1>the judgment of the elected officials of that state. Can

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<v Speaker 1>you tell us about the Supreme Court case that you're

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<v Speaker 1>talking about, Well, there are several of them. For example,

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<v Speaker 1>in one case, officials seized and destroyed someone's poultry that

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<v Speaker 1>they were planning to sell, and they claimed they were

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<v Speaker 1>deprived of property without due process of law, and the

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<v Speaker 1>Supreme Court said that the government officials believed that poultry

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<v Speaker 1>had dangerous bacteria on it, it would make people sick,

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<v Speaker 1>and it needed to be destroyed right away, and the

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<v Speaker 1>courts should differ or to experts on a crisis like that.

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<v Speaker 1>In another case, someone was selling pharmaceuticals that were apparently

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<v Speaker 1>defective and risk making people sick. We're killing them, and

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<v Speaker 1>the court again said, this is an emergency. We don't

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<v Speaker 1>have time for giving people hearings and doing a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of process. We need people in the government to keep

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<v Speaker 1>us safe and supported the action. Governor Cuomo of New

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<v Speaker 1>York said, the policies I communicated aren't worth the paper

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<v Speaker 1>that they're printed on unless people decide to follow them.

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<v Speaker 1>In Michigan, I'm wondering how could they even enforce this.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a difficult thing to do. Certainly, if people on

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<v Speaker 1>mass ignore it, then the government doesn't have the capacity

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<v Speaker 1>to pursue what The hope is that the vast majority

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<v Speaker 1>of people will understand that we are in a crisis

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<v Speaker 1>together and want to do their part to help by

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<v Speaker 1>following these rules, and the few outliers can be addressed

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<v Speaker 1>by law enforcement or by community pressure. Can a governor

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<v Speaker 1>forbid people from other states from coming into his or

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<v Speaker 1>her state? Generally not unless there's a sound of public

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<v Speaker 1>health reason for doing so. If a governor wanted it

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<v Speaker 1>to hold up in court, they'd need to get some

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<v Speaker 1>expert evidence that this is actually necessary, which I don't

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<v Speaker 1>think they'd be able to do. The governor of Florida,

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<v Speaker 1>Rhonda Santists, has imposed quarantines on people coming in from

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<v Speaker 1>New York fourteen day quarantines. Is that within his power?

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<v Speaker 1>I suspect it's not, because that's discriminating on peaceful coming

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<v Speaker 1>from one part of the country versus another. And the

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<v Speaker 1>whole point of being unified country is it states don't

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<v Speaker 1>get to do that. If he had strong scientific basis

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<v Speaker 1>for doing it, he might be able to. But this

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<v Speaker 1>disease is in every state in the Union, and someone

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<v Speaker 1>is just as sick if they have the infection whether

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<v Speaker 1>they come from New York or Wyoming. Part of the

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<v Speaker 1>point of being a single country, being the United States,

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<v Speaker 1>is that we are all in this together. Supreme Court

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<v Speaker 1>has said that the right to interstate travel is fundamental.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you so much. That's David super, a professor at

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<v Speaker 1>Georgetown Law School. You're listening to Bloomberg Law with June

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<v Speaker 1>Grasso from Bloomberg Radio. President Trump says he has absolute

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<v Speaker 1>power to and the coronavirus shutdown. When somebody is the

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<v Speaker 1>president of the United States, the authority is total, and

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<v Speaker 1>that's what it's going to be. The Constitution says otherwise.

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<v Speaker 1>Joining me is Richard, professor at Columbia Law School. So,

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<v Speaker 1>rich what does the Constitution say about the president's claim

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<v Speaker 1>of absolute power over the States? Well, of course, the

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<v Speaker 1>Constitution doesn't address anything like that, and there's really nothing

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<v Speaker 1>in the Constitution that would support that. President is vested

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<v Speaker 1>with executive authority, but that's with respect to the federal

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<v Speaker 1>government present and has given really no direct powers over

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<v Speaker 1>the states at all, except to implement those kinds of

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<v Speaker 1>powers that Congress might give him. Obviously, the parent president

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<v Speaker 1>has power dealing with national security and foreign affairs, but

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<v Speaker 1>for the kind of domestic things that the states are doing.

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<v Speaker 1>Our local business is going to be open, our local

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<v Speaker 1>school is going to be open. That's the kind of

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<v Speaker 1>thing that has traditionally a matter for the states to decide,

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<v Speaker 1>as they've been doing over the past month, because it's

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<v Speaker 1>the public health. Do the states have a particular purview

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<v Speaker 1>over the public health? Yes, I mean, I think the

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<v Speaker 1>better way to put it, and this is the position

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<v Speaker 1>that conservatives have always emphasized, is that the federal government

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<v Speaker 1>is a government of limited powers. It does have this

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<v Speaker 1>power to regulate commerce, and of course, obviously coronavirus has

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<v Speaker 1>a big impact on commerce, but that all the basic

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<v Speaker 1>powers of government, including power over public health and public safety,

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<v Speaker 1>are powers that are wielded at the state level until

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<v Speaker 1>perhaps Congress it is used its commerce power might take

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<v Speaker 1>something away. But the assumption that's basically all the governing

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<v Speaker 1>power and states starts at the state level. Somethings can

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<v Speaker 1>be moved up by Congress at the national level. Some

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<v Speaker 1>things have been delegated by the states to their cities.

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<v Speaker 1>But the key assumption of our system is that the

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<v Speaker 1>states are the basic blocks of government. Trump declared a

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<v Speaker 1>national emergency. Explain why that doesn't give him the powers

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<v Speaker 1>he's trying to claim, and what powers it does give him.

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<v Speaker 1>The national emergency is something that basically is something pursuing

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<v Speaker 1>various acts of Congress that gives the president certain emergency powers.

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<v Speaker 1>With perspective areas in the federal system we allocate sons

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<v Speaker 1>to call into play the Events Production Act, it does

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<v Speaker 1>give him various powers, and even in this setting, it

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<v Speaker 1>might have provided some authority. You know, or when he

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<v Speaker 1>shut down in international air travel or you opposed restrictions

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<v Speaker 1>international air travel. I mean, Congress can get the president

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<v Speaker 1>power to deal with emergencies. The irony here is I

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<v Speaker 1>think the president might have been in a better position

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<v Speaker 1>to use emergency powers to shut things down. It's not

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<v Speaker 1>clear he has any particular power to order things up.

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<v Speaker 1>I mean, if his state decides it wants to close

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<v Speaker 1>its school system, the president has no power to say

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<v Speaker 1>it's got to be open. One of the state decides

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<v Speaker 1>it wants to close its government offices, the president has

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<v Speaker 1>no power. In the states, is issuing orders to businesses

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<v Speaker 1>that you want to close, the President doesn't have the

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<v Speaker 1>power to say, no, you have to be open. In fact,

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<v Speaker 1>he didn't even push several Republican governors who were slow

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<v Speaker 1>to issues stay at home orders. But he seems to

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<v Speaker 1>be trying to save face yesterday he said he was

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<v Speaker 1>authorizing the governors to decide for themselves, when govern could

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<v Speaker 1>easily respond, we don't need your authorization. The governors can

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<v Speaker 1>pretty much do what they want. I mean, it is

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<v Speaker 1>true that the president has ways of making governors do

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<v Speaker 1>what he wants, but not through orders so much. Obviously,

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<v Speaker 1>the president or Secretary of the Treasury now under the

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<v Speaker 1>CARES Act, has control over huge amounts of money in

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<v Speaker 1>terms of allocation of funding for public health emergencies are

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<v Speaker 1>other things the president and this president has not been

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<v Speaker 1>shy about that can manipulate who gets the funding, who

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<v Speaker 1>gets the ventilators, who gets the PPE, and the masks

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<v Speaker 1>in ways that favor governors who are cooperative and disfavor

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<v Speaker 1>those who are not. So it's not that the president

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<v Speaker 1>has no power. What the president doesn't have is the

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<v Speaker 1>power to treat governors as subordinates. The president can try

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<v Speaker 1>and persuade them, the president can try and pressure them,

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<v Speaker 1>but what the president can't do is actually give them orders.

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<v Speaker 1>They treat them as if they were junior members of

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<v Speaker 1>his government. That is simply not our system. We did

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<v Speaker 1>hear the president a few weeks ago, is it a

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<v Speaker 1>few weeks ago? I don't know, it's this seems like

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<v Speaker 1>it's going on. It could have been days ago exactly.

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<v Speaker 1>So he did say that the governors who are nice

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<v Speaker 1>to him, who are going to be the ones that

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<v Speaker 1>get what they need, which seems to be just an

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<v Speaker 1>anathema to the way our system is supposed to work. Well,

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<v Speaker 1>that's certainly true. It shouldn't be a case where political

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<v Speaker 1>or ideological favoritism or todaism influences where valuable funds, critical

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<v Speaker 1>public health equipment and supplies where they're sent, they should

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<v Speaker 1>be sent based on need, not based on the governor's

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<v Speaker 1>saying nice things about the president. But in a way

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<v Speaker 1>that though that statement also illustrates the whole point, which

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<v Speaker 1>is they don't work for him. He used the phrase,

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<v Speaker 1>I think it was yesterday, the day before that mutiny,

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<v Speaker 1>like you know, the mutiny on the bounty when the

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<v Speaker 1>crew doesn't obey the captain. Well, that's not this. He's

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<v Speaker 1>not the captain, or, as Governor Colma said, he's not

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<v Speaker 1>the king. It's not mutiny. It's disagreement. It's disagreement amongst

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<v Speaker 1>people who have the key power in this area. He

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<v Speaker 1>can give reasons, he can try and persuade he can

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<v Speaker 1>suggest why he can even direct funds in certain ways

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<v Speaker 1>to try and persuade or coerce, but he can't order

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<v Speaker 1>in the way that the head of the department can

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<v Speaker 1>order a junior in an apartment to do something. In

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<v Speaker 1>his presidency, he's already said that Article two allows me

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<v Speaker 1>to do whatever I want. Now. When he was asked

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<v Speaker 1>at a press conference the other day, who said that

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<v Speaker 1>you have these absolute powers? He didn't say, but I

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<v Speaker 1>wonder is it Attorney General Bill Barr, with his theories

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<v Speaker 1>of executive power, well, and one has the impression that

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<v Speaker 1>the president just sometimes makes these things up. I think

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<v Speaker 1>the president is his strongest claim, and even then there's

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of doubt about it that he can do

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<v Speaker 1>anything he wants within the federal government. You know, everybody

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<v Speaker 1>in the executive branch. Even then he can't command Congress.

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<v Speaker 1>The theory that a lot of people, the Attorney General

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<v Speaker 1>to some extent others have the spouse is the so

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<v Speaker 1>called unitary executive that everybody in the executive branch works

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<v Speaker 1>for the president, and you can't have entities like an

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<v Speaker 1>independent council, where you can't have truly independent executive agencies.

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<v Speaker 1>And that's debated, but there's no theory that says that

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<v Speaker 1>the governor's work for the president, or that the states

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<v Speaker 1>can be commanded by the president to do whatever he

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<v Speaker 1>wants them to do. Has Congress basically, through many, many years,

0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:44.480
<v Speaker 1>been allowing the president to exert more powers, been building

0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:49.040
<v Speaker 1>up the executive branch to the detriment of Congress. I

0:12:49.080 --> 0:12:51.439
<v Speaker 1>think that's a fair point. That Congress has delegated a

0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:53.640
<v Speaker 1>lot of authority to the presidents over the years, a

0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:56.520
<v Speaker 1>lot of there's a lot of emergency legislation, a lot

0:12:56.559 --> 0:12:59.360
<v Speaker 1>of wartime legislation that never got repealed, a lot of

0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:01.600
<v Speaker 1>what the president did earlier in the administration in terms

0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:05.600
<v Speaker 1>of imposing tariffs against products in various countries, including our allies,

0:13:06.080 --> 0:13:11.080
<v Speaker 1>he's using delegated authority that Congress gave him. I mean,

0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:13.640
<v Speaker 1>in theory, these were supposed to be based on national security,

0:13:13.679 --> 0:13:18.360
<v Speaker 1>and he's pretty much stretched national security. Congress has given

0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:23.599
<v Speaker 1>the president a lot of authority through relatively unchecked delegations.

0:13:24.120 --> 0:13:26.240
<v Speaker 1>But even here it's not clear that the Congress could

0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:28.600
<v Speaker 1>give president of the authority to give the state's orders.

0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:33.400
<v Speaker 1>Supreme Court, in cases going back several decades now, has

0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:36.960
<v Speaker 1>developed this doctrine that as the anti commandeering doctrine, which

0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:39.400
<v Speaker 1>says that the federal government cannot come and dear the

0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:42.520
<v Speaker 1>states to carry out federal commands. The leading case on

0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:45.360
<v Speaker 1>that was actually a case involving gun control, the Brady Bill,

0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:49.800
<v Speaker 1>which purported to require local sheriffs to enforce waiting periods

0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:53.520
<v Speaker 1>and background checks. The Supreme Court said, Congress is free

0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:56.000
<v Speaker 1>to adopt requirements like this, but they can't impose them

0:13:56.160 --> 0:13:59.080
<v Speaker 1>on local officials or on state officials. The Congress can't

0:13:59.400 --> 0:14:01.839
<v Speaker 1>come and do your governments to carry out their will,

0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:04.920
<v Speaker 1>and the presidents certainly can't commend your state governments. Is

0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:11.040
<v Speaker 1>this Supreme Court more inclined to support executive power. It

0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:13.800
<v Speaker 1>certainly has. But I think all the fights that we've

0:14:13.840 --> 0:14:18.120
<v Speaker 1>seen until now have been the president versus Congress, or

0:14:18.120 --> 0:14:22.720
<v Speaker 1>the president versus outside people, citizens or groups or people

0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:26.040
<v Speaker 1>trying to enforce legal requirements against the president. It hasn't

0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:27.960
<v Speaker 1>actually come up that. I'm more if the president has

0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:31.120
<v Speaker 1>gone against has tried to impose something on states, and

0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:33.040
<v Speaker 1>that would be a different set of issues. The Court

0:14:33.200 --> 0:14:36.440
<v Speaker 1>is very deferential to the president and has done so

0:14:36.720 --> 0:14:39.560
<v Speaker 1>in several liberties issues like the so called Musli traveled,

0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:42.160
<v Speaker 1>and the court has been deferential to the president. In

0:14:42.200 --> 0:14:45.920
<v Speaker 1>other areas, states have sometimes tried to enforce federal requirements

0:14:45.960 --> 0:14:47.880
<v Speaker 1>against the president, but I don't think we've seen a

0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:50.400
<v Speaker 1>case in which the presidents tried to enforce something into

0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:53.880
<v Speaker 1>the States. I'm wondering about the cases that are before

0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:56.240
<v Speaker 1>the court. It's a little bit of a detour. But

0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:59.760
<v Speaker 1>the cases that are before the court on Trump's subpoenas. Yeah,

0:15:00.040 --> 0:15:02.560
<v Speaker 1>I mean, what's your take on that? It's hard to say.

0:15:02.600 --> 0:15:04.480
<v Speaker 1>I mean, that is one where I could see the

0:15:05.080 --> 0:15:07.880
<v Speaker 1>court being protective. What's unusual is that this is a

0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:10.800
<v Speaker 1>case where the president is arguing kind of the immunity

0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:13.600
<v Speaker 1>of the president, not as an executive, not as kind

0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:16.680
<v Speaker 1>of institutional president, but the president is a person meet

0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:19.840
<v Speaker 1>Donald Trump, rather than the president United States. That argument

0:15:19.920 --> 0:15:23.320
<v Speaker 1>failed terribly. The PAULA. Jones lawsuit against the president went

0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:25.960
<v Speaker 1>where he basically said, because I'm the president, I'm too

0:15:25.960 --> 0:15:27.960
<v Speaker 1>busy and this case should be held off until I

0:15:28.040 --> 0:15:30.600
<v Speaker 1>leave office. He lost that case, but some people have

0:15:30.640 --> 0:15:33.600
<v Speaker 1>felt that there was more justice to his argument than

0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:36.480
<v Speaker 1>the court recognized. But even then, these cases, a lot

0:15:36.520 --> 0:15:39.760
<v Speaker 1>of them are actually not against the president. But against say,

0:15:39.800 --> 0:15:42.920
<v Speaker 1>his accounting firm to produce documents. So that even though

0:15:42.960 --> 0:15:45.560
<v Speaker 1>though the President has gotten into the case, it's not

0:15:45.680 --> 0:15:47.760
<v Speaker 1>clear that it's going to cost him any time or

0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:50.520
<v Speaker 1>distraction to respond to the subpoenas the subpoena that his

0:15:50.560 --> 0:15:52.520
<v Speaker 1>account that has to respond to. So you know, if

0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:55.640
<v Speaker 1>one looks at President, the president as pretty weak grounds here.

0:15:55.680 --> 0:15:57.720
<v Speaker 1>But you know, no, it's always hard to predict the

0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:00.040
<v Speaker 1>Supreme Court. I want to turn for a moment to

0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:04.440
<v Speaker 1>the Defense Production Act, because he invoked it and said,

0:16:04.480 --> 0:16:07.320
<v Speaker 1>you know, to alex Aser, okay, use this to get

0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:09.880
<v Speaker 1>a GM, but it doesn't seem as if he's really

0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:12.640
<v Speaker 1>used it with the force that he could. For the

0:16:12.640 --> 0:16:15.080
<v Speaker 1>Defense Production Act, I think goes back to the Korean

0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:18.040
<v Speaker 1>War and reflects practice of the curser in World War Two,

0:16:18.080 --> 0:16:19.560
<v Speaker 1>although I don't think it was on the book stand,

0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:22.200
<v Speaker 1>in which the president has during a case of wartime

0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:26.360
<v Speaker 1>or a national emergency, president has power to direct major

0:16:26.400 --> 0:16:30.440
<v Speaker 1>manufacturers to stop making consumer goods uh and to divert

0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:33.800
<v Speaker 1>their their capacities to making war material. Would have been

0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:36.560
<v Speaker 1>you know, uh, tanks instead of cars. In this case,

0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:40.880
<v Speaker 1>it would be to produce um ventilators. Or other other

0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:44.080
<v Speaker 1>valuable equipment that hospital needs to deal with the car crisis.

0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:47.560
<v Speaker 1>UM president for city what he didn't want to do it,

0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:49.760
<v Speaker 1>and then he finally got pushed and as I as

0:16:49.800 --> 0:16:52.200
<v Speaker 1>far as I understand, he basically as and you're right,

0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:54.600
<v Speaker 1>he's asked. He himself doesn't get didn't give an order.

0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:56.320
<v Speaker 1>He gave an order to his one of his cabinet

0:16:56.320 --> 0:16:58.560
<v Speaker 1>members dave an order. My understanding is that the one

0:16:58.600 --> 0:17:01.400
<v Speaker 1>thing he ordered, they were already do ink uh and

0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:04.359
<v Speaker 1>so they had already said they were retooling to start

0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:08.240
<v Speaker 1>producing eventilators and other equipment. So it's not clearly he's

0:17:08.280 --> 0:17:10.280
<v Speaker 1>I mean, he makes um kind of made a big

0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:12.880
<v Speaker 1>show of that at the time, but I don't think

0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:16.240
<v Speaker 1>what he did actually had any significance other than maybe

0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:21.600
<v Speaker 1>symbolically explain the difference between what a president can do

0:17:21.640 --> 0:17:25.800
<v Speaker 1>on the Defense Production Act and what Harry Truman tried

0:17:25.880 --> 0:17:29.480
<v Speaker 1>to do during the Korean War with the steel mills, right.

0:17:29.760 --> 0:17:33.800
<v Speaker 1>Um So, the so called steel seizure was a situation

0:17:34.280 --> 0:17:37.840
<v Speaker 1>where um so, during during the Korean War, uh and

0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:41.159
<v Speaker 1>there was a dispute actually between them steel manufacturers and

0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:45.880
<v Speaker 1>the unions. UH and they reached the stalemate, and uh Truman,

0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:48.560
<v Speaker 1>I think, basically to being somewhat sympathetic to the unions

0:17:48.560 --> 0:17:51.080
<v Speaker 1>in that situation, basically said he was he was going

0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:54.600
<v Speaker 1>to steal seize the steel mills um as a matter

0:17:54.600 --> 0:17:57.359
<v Speaker 1>of his wartime authority because it's the Korean War, and

0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:00.200
<v Speaker 1>to avoid a strike, to avoid right that the area

0:18:00.280 --> 0:18:03.560
<v Speaker 1>was that um that if the negotiations between the manufact

0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:05.280
<v Speaker 1>the employers and the union broke down, there would be

0:18:05.280 --> 0:18:07.359
<v Speaker 1>a strike, and we couldn't afford a strike during the

0:18:07.359 --> 0:18:09.080
<v Speaker 1>middle of the Korean War. So his plan was to

0:18:09.119 --> 0:18:12.760
<v Speaker 1>seize the mills um in order to make a settlement

0:18:12.760 --> 0:18:14.720
<v Speaker 1>with the unions to avoid a strike. And that was

0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:18.480
<v Speaker 1>the basic idea, and that was challenged by the steel companies,

0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:21.200
<v Speaker 1>and ultimately the Supreme Court said the president lacked the

0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:23.919
<v Speaker 1>power to do this. This is this that it was

0:18:24.080 --> 0:18:27.320
<v Speaker 1>Congress had not given him this this power and and

0:18:27.400 --> 0:18:30.000
<v Speaker 1>sort of not even close. They said there were certain

0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:33.080
<v Speaker 1>things where Congress has explicitly given powers, there were certa

0:18:33.080 --> 0:18:35.160
<v Speaker 1>things where maybe it's implicit and what Congress has done,

0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:36.959
<v Speaker 1>and there are certain things where there's just no support

0:18:37.000 --> 0:18:39.640
<v Speaker 1>for it. And basically the president just simply did not

0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:43.720
<v Speaker 1>have this does not have that inherent authority, uh, to

0:18:43.760 --> 0:18:46.200
<v Speaker 1>see steel mills. The president maybe the commander in chief,

0:18:46.680 --> 0:18:48.440
<v Speaker 1>but that doesn't make him the commander in chief of

0:18:48.480 --> 0:18:52.359
<v Speaker 1>the domestic economy. Um. And you need to have some

0:18:52.720 --> 0:18:56.240
<v Speaker 1>clear or at least implied authority from Congress to do this.

0:18:56.560 --> 0:19:00.280
<v Speaker 1>For the Events Production Act does give some authority, um

0:19:00.359 --> 0:19:03.919
<v Speaker 1>and so UM it might be and he, you know,

0:19:04.000 --> 0:19:06.159
<v Speaker 1>he he can in book it for certain purposes and

0:19:06.200 --> 0:19:09.280
<v Speaker 1>that would be the basis for it. But the court

0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:11.120
<v Speaker 1>I guess at the time of the steel seizure case,

0:19:11.760 --> 0:19:14.080
<v Speaker 1>the president was not relying on the authority. And also

0:19:14.640 --> 0:19:18.760
<v Speaker 1>here in the Defense Production Actor, president isn't seizing general motors,

0:19:18.760 --> 0:19:22.160
<v Speaker 1>auto plants. He's basically telling them to redirect what they're doing.

0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:25.040
<v Speaker 1>So it's a less or he's asking, he's asking them

0:19:25.040 --> 0:19:28.160
<v Speaker 1>asking somewhere been asking and telling. It's it's a less

0:19:28.240 --> 0:19:32.640
<v Speaker 1>dramatic intervention than what Truman did. Thanks rich that's Richard Drafal,

0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:36.359
<v Speaker 1>Professor at Columbia Law School. Thanks for listening to the

0:19:36.359 --> 0:19:39.720
<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Law Podcast. You can subscribe and listen to the

0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:43.680
<v Speaker 1>show on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and on Bloomberg dot com

0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:47.919
<v Speaker 1>slash podcast. I'm June Brasso, This is Bloomberg,