1
00:00:05,800 --> 00:00:08,720
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg p m L Podcast. I'm pim Fox.

2
00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:11,520
Speaker 1: Along with my co host Lisa Bramowitz. Each day we

3
00:00:11,640 --> 00:00:15,120
Speaker 1: bring you the most important, noteworthy, and useful interviews for

4
00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:17,840
Speaker 1: you and your money, whether you're at the grocery store

5
00:00:17,960 --> 00:00:20,720
Speaker 1: or the trading floor. Find the Bloomberg p m L

6
00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:32,720
Speaker 1: Podcast on Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, and Bloomberg dot com. Right now,

7
00:00:32,760 --> 00:00:36,279
Speaker 1: we know that investors are hoping for returns that are

8
00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,839
Speaker 1: often bigger than what a lot of institutional managers will

9
00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,479
Speaker 1: say that they can get, and they don't want extra

10
00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:46,720
Speaker 1: taxes cutting into that. And there's a new popular way

11
00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,919
Speaker 1: to avoid taxes that has um name that's less than exciting,

12
00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,120
Speaker 1: insurance dedicated funds. Here to tell us a little bit

13
00:00:54,120 --> 00:00:55,720
Speaker 1: more about these and why they're a little bit more

14
00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:58,640
Speaker 1: exciting than they sound, Tom Metcalf, who is able to

15
00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,000
Speaker 1: produce reporter in choices in our Brick eleven three our studios, Tom,

16
00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:08,480
Speaker 1: what exactly our insurance dedicated funds? So they're pretty complicated product. Basically,

17
00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:11,440
Speaker 1: they're a way for very wealthy investors to invest in

18
00:01:11,480 --> 00:01:14,000
Speaker 1: hedge funds and without have to pay any sort of

19
00:01:14,080 --> 00:01:17,600
Speaker 1: tax on those gains. So there's two types a life

20
00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,720
Speaker 1: insurance product and an annuity product. But basically what you

21
00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:23,560
Speaker 1: do as an investor, you effectly buy a life insurance

22
00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:27,280
Speaker 1: product and then that insurer will invest for you into

23
00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:30,399
Speaker 1: a hedge fund and then there is absolutely zero tax

24
00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:32,119
Speaker 1: on that. Do you have a sense of how big

25
00:01:32,319 --> 00:01:35,880
Speaker 1: the idea for the insurance dedicated fund industry has become?

26
00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:38,720
Speaker 1: So it's pretty hard to get like official statistics. One

27
00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:40,480
Speaker 1: guy said, you know, people are trying to keep this

28
00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:43,760
Speaker 1: relatively quiet just because it's so successful. They don't want

29
00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:45,600
Speaker 1: everyone else to know how well it's going. But one

30
00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:47,480
Speaker 1: one guy sort of estimated for us it was at

31
00:01:47,520 --> 00:01:50,960
Speaker 1: least fifteen and perhaps eighteen billion in terms of total assets,

32
00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:53,360
Speaker 1: and that's tripled over the last ten years or so.

33
00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:55,920
Speaker 1: Let me just get a handle on this, because it's

34
00:01:55,960 --> 00:02:00,480
Speaker 1: not necessarily new that insurance policies are used for things

35
00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:03,600
Speaker 1: like a state planning purposes. Right, if you have a

36
00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:08,120
Speaker 1: projected tax bill because of your estate, many times what

37
00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:10,520
Speaker 1: you'll do is you, if you can afford it, you

38
00:02:10,600 --> 00:02:14,919
Speaker 1: will pay the premium for an insurance policy whose payoff

39
00:02:15,160 --> 00:02:18,760
Speaker 1: value to the beneficiaries is equal to whatever the tax

40
00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:21,520
Speaker 1: liability is. So in other words, you're getting a tax

41
00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,720
Speaker 1: free distribution from your insurance policy and you use that

42
00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:28,919
Speaker 1: money to go and pay your estate taxes. That's already

43
00:02:29,360 --> 00:02:33,639
Speaker 1: well known and I mean, I mean it's pretty widely widespread, correct, Yeah,

44
00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:35,920
Speaker 1: And this is sort of, I guess, even more grander

45
00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,960
Speaker 1: than that. So it's become a more popular because what

46
00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,359
Speaker 1: we're seeing is obviously family officers that have exploded, So

47
00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:43,560
Speaker 1: you're getting so many more investors out there you can

48
00:02:43,840 --> 00:02:47,519
Speaker 1: afford to leave their money locked away effectively for decades.

49
00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:52,160
Speaker 1: And also the difference here is effectively you can with

50
00:02:52,240 --> 00:02:55,360
Speaker 1: this structure effectively avoid any sort of tax on that

51
00:02:55,400 --> 00:02:58,640
Speaker 1: death benefit if it's structured correctly. Well, So, just to

52
00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,360
Speaker 1: give us a sense of how this differs from a

53
00:03:01,480 --> 00:03:05,640
Speaker 1: typical annuity, just in terms of the promised yields. What

54
00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,880
Speaker 1: kind of returns on their investments have some of these

55
00:03:09,919 --> 00:03:13,679
Speaker 1: wealthy individuals been expecting to receive. So in some of

56
00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:16,960
Speaker 1: the marketing documents it's basically, over say a forty year period,

57
00:03:17,160 --> 00:03:20,000
Speaker 1: you can under a normal structure, get about fifty million

58
00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:22,400
Speaker 1: in terms of a total you investment two I think

59
00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:24,079
Speaker 1: it's two and a half million over four years, and

60
00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,040
Speaker 1: then leave it there, you know, making returns for forty

61
00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:29,320
Speaker 1: odd years, and that would be fifty million under a

62
00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:32,200
Speaker 1: normal structure, and in this sort of totally tax restructure

63
00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,720
Speaker 1: that rises to about hundred and twenty million. Holy cow.

64
00:03:35,520 --> 00:03:38,520
Speaker 1: Well that's because of the tax, the tax status something

65
00:03:38,520 --> 00:03:41,040
Speaker 1: of the investment, right, because it's growing status. This is

66
00:03:41,120 --> 00:03:43,920
Speaker 1: because they're investing in huge funds. They're not investing in

67
00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,880
Speaker 1: just sort of income producing securities. Right. Um, it's both basically,

68
00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:52,720
Speaker 1: So it's effectively in terms of that hundred twenty million. Basically,

69
00:03:52,760 --> 00:03:55,400
Speaker 1: if you are the beneficiary rather than ensured, that hundred

70
00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:58,440
Speaker 1: twenty million will landing your bank account for all effect

71
00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:02,000
Speaker 1: without any tax at all. Right, because it's an insurance payout. Yeah,

72
00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:04,440
Speaker 1: because it's a life insurance payout, right, and when meeting

73
00:04:04,480 --> 00:04:06,600
Speaker 1: life insurance meaning you're not going to get it, the

74
00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:09,120
Speaker 1: beneficiary is going to get I said, well, I could

75
00:04:09,640 --> 00:04:12,960
Speaker 1: buy the policy for and insure someone else, so I

76
00:04:13,000 --> 00:04:15,080
Speaker 1: could be the beneficiary. So you know, let's say I

77
00:04:15,080 --> 00:04:18,880
Speaker 1: have a nice elderly relative. Perhaps that might be a

78
00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:20,720
Speaker 1: thing I could do if I had to spare. You know,

79
00:04:20,760 --> 00:04:22,520
Speaker 1: people say about you need seven to eight million. But

80
00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,599
Speaker 1: that also used to be a very popular investment product.

81
00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:29,120
Speaker 1: Which is banks companies. I mean they were viadical settlements.

82
00:04:29,120 --> 00:04:31,440
Speaker 1: In other words, you would ensure someone else and when

83
00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:35,039
Speaker 1: they passed away that the benefit of that policy would

84
00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:38,880
Speaker 1: accrue to you because you paid the premiers for that person. Yeah, exactly.

85
00:04:38,880 --> 00:04:42,000
Speaker 1: And the guess the twist here is the involvement hedge

86
00:04:42,040 --> 00:04:44,800
Speaker 1: runs that you get to select because technically you don't

87
00:04:44,800 --> 00:04:49,120
Speaker 1: get to select what the insurance company invests in. But

88
00:04:49,200 --> 00:04:52,080
Speaker 1: now you're saying that you can do this by selecting

89
00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:56,000
Speaker 1: these specific kinds of products, these idefs. Yeah, you've got

90
00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:58,080
Speaker 1: to be very careful. So the I r S looks

91
00:04:58,200 --> 00:05:00,720
Speaker 1: very closely at this in terms of you can't show

92
00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,360
Speaker 1: what they term investor control. But basically, and this is

93
00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:05,599
Speaker 1: another reason why it's becoming more popular, is what you

94
00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:07,440
Speaker 1: can do is move from fund to fund. So let's

95
00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:09,200
Speaker 1: say you're invested in one hedge fund and you go,

96
00:05:10,320 --> 00:05:11,919
Speaker 1: I can't tell them what to invest in, but I

97
00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:14,719
Speaker 1: don't like their performance. You can move to another. They

98
00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:18,440
Speaker 1: are called insurance dedicated funds without any sort of kind

99
00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:20,880
Speaker 1: of implications and tax works or anything. This is such

100
00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,039
Speaker 1: an interesting story. And one thing that you talk about

101
00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,280
Speaker 1: is that these vehicles have become so mainstream that you've

102
00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:29,040
Speaker 1: got banks like JPMorgan and Goldman Sachs offering them, as

103
00:05:29,080 --> 00:05:33,240
Speaker 1: well as hedge funds like Paulson and Company and Millennium Partners.

104
00:05:33,400 --> 00:05:36,600
Speaker 1: And it was interesting and somewhat telling that no one

105
00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:39,599
Speaker 1: wanted to comment for your story whatsoever. And you know,

106
00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:43,039
Speaker 1: do you do you think that, um that there is

107
00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,680
Speaker 1: some concern that regulators could kind of home in and

108
00:05:45,680 --> 00:05:50,240
Speaker 1: try to remove the loophole that's kind of being exploded here. Yeah,

109
00:05:50,240 --> 00:05:52,400
Speaker 1: we were asking the various people spect to the story

110
00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,880
Speaker 1: about that. And what has happened originally is the RS

111
00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:58,600
Speaker 1: is constantly raised, a few lawsuits and stuff. I think

112
00:05:58,600 --> 00:06:00,760
Speaker 1: at the moment there's a feeling which is again, popularities

113
00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:02,960
Speaker 1: increase and as long as you're very clear and can

114
00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,320
Speaker 1: make this case for invest in control that you're not involved,

115
00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:07,560
Speaker 1: that they're quite secure. And I think part of the

116
00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:09,960
Speaker 1: reason they're not commenting as well is you know that

117
00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:12,279
Speaker 1: it's a private placement, so they don't they're not really

118
00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:14,320
Speaker 1: allowed to talk about sort of client issues like that.

119
00:06:14,640 --> 00:06:17,880
Speaker 1: That's what they told their compliance department would probably you know,

120
00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:23,040
Speaker 1: a brain uh melt down just just quickly. Insurance payouts

121
00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,320
Speaker 1: are in a sense guaranteed. Right, you buy a life

122
00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:27,520
Speaker 1: insurance policy for a million dollars, it pays out a

123
00:06:27,520 --> 00:06:30,240
Speaker 1: million dollars. In this case, you buy a life insurance

124
00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,560
Speaker 1: policied invested in hedge funds? Is there any guarantee? Um?

125
00:06:33,600 --> 00:06:35,599
Speaker 1: I mean it's variable. And in fact it was a

126
00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:39,200
Speaker 1: case where a guy who invest in these is a

127
00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:42,200
Speaker 1: rich head from guy and invested as in a I

128
00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:44,160
Speaker 1: d F and then try to sue them because they

129
00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,880
Speaker 1: didn't get the returns he wanted. So there is definitely

130
00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,600
Speaker 1: that risk level. But when you take out tax, as

131
00:06:49,640 --> 00:06:51,320
Speaker 1: long as you're not going for a super super high

132
00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,080
Speaker 1: risk fund, then it's just easy returns. On that level

133
00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:56,560
Speaker 1: at least, it's almost like having an additional IRA A right,

134
00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,159
Speaker 1: I mean the money grows tax free. Although the IRA

135
00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,760
Speaker 1: case you actually attacks when you pull the money out,

136
00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:06,039
Speaker 1: in this case you could potentially not pay anything. Thanks

137
00:07:06,120 --> 00:07:10,600
Speaker 1: very much, Tom Metcalf, always a pleasure talking about i dfs.

138
00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:14,800
Speaker 1: We're talking about insurance dedicated funds. Check it out Bloomberg

139
00:07:15,040 --> 00:07:30,360
Speaker 1: dot com. Well, companies all across the world are still

140
00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:33,120
Speaker 1: grappling with a cyber attack that's similar to the want

141
00:07:33,120 --> 00:07:35,920
Speaker 1: to cry attack that we saw a couple of months ago. Um,

142
00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:39,480
Speaker 1: it's reached parts of Asia after hitting Europe, US, South America,

143
00:07:39,760 --> 00:07:42,280
Speaker 1: and who is really to blame? I want to bring

144
00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,040
Speaker 1: in Robert Knapp's chief executive officer and co founder of

145
00:07:45,120 --> 00:07:49,480
Speaker 1: cyber Ghost, which is based in Bucharest, Romania. Robert, thank

146
00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,320
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us. In previous news articles,

147
00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:57,160
Speaker 1: you've been quoted saying that, frankly, governments are in large

148
00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:00,560
Speaker 1: part to blame for some of these cyber attacks because

149
00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,240
Speaker 1: there you know, for example, the U. S N s A,

150
00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,920
Speaker 1: We'll find some of these loopholes and problems with programs

151
00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:10,480
Speaker 1: widely is programs, and they won't report them because they

152
00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:12,920
Speaker 1: want to be able to access people's information. Can you

153
00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:17,920
Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that exactly. I mean I

154
00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:20,480
Speaker 1: was talking a couple of years now about the fact

155
00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:24,680
Speaker 1: that we have to decide in the future how we

156
00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:30,920
Speaker 1: wanna move forward with online security. One of the big

157
00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:34,319
Speaker 1: problems we see now and these attack shows it, um

158
00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:37,520
Speaker 1: and leave me. We are just now before the next

159
00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:41,480
Speaker 1: attack because all these attacks we see, how we saw

160
00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:46,840
Speaker 1: in the last years, are using so called backdoors means

161
00:08:47,360 --> 00:08:53,440
Speaker 1: um loopholes in in normally secure systems that are either

162
00:08:53,840 --> 00:09:00,600
Speaker 1: implemented by um national security organizations or detect a financial

163
00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:06,280
Speaker 1: security agencies and not reported to the developers, because these

164
00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:11,880
Speaker 1: agencies use them to spire on people, which weakens the

165
00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,240
Speaker 1: security for all of us. And I think we need

166
00:09:15,320 --> 00:09:18,840
Speaker 1: to make a decision um as a as a society

167
00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:23,800
Speaker 1: about how we want to proceed in future with putting

168
00:09:24,000 --> 00:09:28,560
Speaker 1: our whole life on the internet. Robert, would this would

169
00:09:28,720 --> 00:09:31,400
Speaker 1: would an analogy be that, you know, in in some

170
00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:34,960
Speaker 1: science fiction movies, you know, you've got the scientist who's trying,

171
00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:40,200
Speaker 1: you know, creating some crazy chemical, you know, to rule

172
00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:43,520
Speaker 1: the world. But it gets loose, right, it gets loose

173
00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:46,719
Speaker 1: and someone else takes it and does bad things with it.

174
00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:51,679
Speaker 1: Is this what's happening right now? I know, not exactly.

175
00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,880
Speaker 1: I I know a better analogy. It's like, you know,

176
00:09:55,480 --> 00:09:59,160
Speaker 1: it is like we live in a neighborhood and we

177
00:09:59,400 --> 00:10:05,360
Speaker 1: implement now in our houses absolutely safe doors so nobody

178
00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:09,600
Speaker 1: could break into the house. But the police has the idea,

179
00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:12,959
Speaker 1: let it make even more safe. Leave all of us,

180
00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:17,480
Speaker 1: give us a key, so so we could prevent the

181
00:10:17,520 --> 00:10:19,520
Speaker 1: bad guys entering the door. Okay, but here's what I

182
00:10:19,520 --> 00:10:22,679
Speaker 1: don't understand, Robert. But here's here's what I don't understand,

183
00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:26,880
Speaker 1: because if the government is to blame for not reporting

184
00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:31,040
Speaker 1: some of these back doors and loopholes, wouldn't the technology

185
00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:34,320
Speaker 1: companies hire some people If these hacks aren't that difficult

186
00:10:34,320 --> 00:10:36,160
Speaker 1: to do, wouldn't they just hire a team of people

187
00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,640
Speaker 1: to try to break in and go through every back

188
00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:46,520
Speaker 1: door and find every vulnerability and fix it. Um. I

189
00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,480
Speaker 1: disagree that the point is that would that would mean

190
00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:52,840
Speaker 1: that we believe that it's possible to build one hundre

191
00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:57,199
Speaker 1: the centature systems, so and that is simply not possible. Um.

192
00:10:57,240 --> 00:11:01,200
Speaker 1: We're speaking here about highly complex systems with sometimes hundreds

193
00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:03,920
Speaker 1: of thousands and millions of lines of codes. So the

194
00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:08,599
Speaker 1: problem is, first of all, we cannot build safe systems

195
00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:13,360
Speaker 1: once we detect the vulnerability. We need to have laws

196
00:11:13,400 --> 00:11:19,240
Speaker 1: that prevents anyone from using these vulnerabilities and to report

197
00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,480
Speaker 1: these vulnerability So that means we need a common effort

198
00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:26,560
Speaker 1: into into making the web more secure and not making

199
00:11:26,559 --> 00:11:31,280
Speaker 1: the web more unsecure. And you know, having state organizations

200
00:11:31,400 --> 00:11:34,719
Speaker 1: having these keys are not giving them back to the

201
00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,800
Speaker 1: rightful owners of the doors. That doesn't make sense and

202
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:43,319
Speaker 1: the reality shows that, UM, this is not the way

203
00:11:43,360 --> 00:11:45,439
Speaker 1: to go for the future because we're gonna see now

204
00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,360
Speaker 1: more and more of these kind of attacks that all

205
00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:53,200
Speaker 1: used vulnerabilities in normally secure systems. Well, given the current

206
00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:56,000
Speaker 1: political environment, it seems unlikely that there's going to be

207
00:11:56,040 --> 00:12:00,400
Speaker 1: a consensus about very much, specifically about cyber attack accent

208
00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,880
Speaker 1: trying to put forth some kind of legislation. I'm wondering

209
00:12:03,920 --> 00:12:08,480
Speaker 1: if you could offer businesses and individuals any advice on

210
00:12:08,520 --> 00:12:12,160
Speaker 1: how to prepare or deal with the current cyber attack

211
00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:18,160
Speaker 1: and future attacks. What should people and businesses be doing. Look,

212
00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:23,000
Speaker 1: the weapon of the twenty one century is encryption technology.

213
00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:29,240
Speaker 1: So the answer exists. The solution exists. We have it.

214
00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:33,040
Speaker 1: It's pure mathematics, and it's called encryption. So that means

215
00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:38,240
Speaker 1: protect yourself with tools like our cyberablest hand that is

216
00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,960
Speaker 1: an entrypted come into the internet, use PGP for your email,

217
00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:46,839
Speaker 1: use encrypted check systems, and do a pack up of

218
00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,000
Speaker 1: your data. So the problem that we see right now

219
00:12:50,120 --> 00:12:52,120
Speaker 1: we want to try to take over these kind of

220
00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:55,960
Speaker 1: a kick is that these people lock your data. That

221
00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,080
Speaker 1: means the only way to protect yourself from that is

222
00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:01,480
Speaker 1: to back up, but to pick ups keys in a

223
00:13:01,520 --> 00:13:04,640
Speaker 1: way that you would encrypt your data in the cloud.

224
00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:07,760
Speaker 1: So don't pick ups in the clouds a pickups in

225
00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,800
Speaker 1: your own networkeding on and try and trypt your data.

226
00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:16,840
Speaker 1: And as long as we don't have bactors and encrypted solutions,

227
00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,440
Speaker 1: these solutions are really safe. I want to thank you

228
00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:22,600
Speaker 1: very much for joining us. Robert Napp is the chief

229
00:13:22,600 --> 00:13:40,440
Speaker 1: executive and the co founder of cybergost joining us from Bucharest, Romania. Well,

230
00:13:40,480 --> 00:13:44,000
Speaker 1: he is here to continue the saga of Puerto Rico.

231
00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:48,000
Speaker 1: Joe Masac is our editor for Bloomberg Briefs Municipal Market

232
00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:50,600
Speaker 1: Brief and he joins us in studio. Joe, you know,

233
00:13:50,720 --> 00:13:53,320
Speaker 1: I'm I guess this is what chapter. I don't even

234
00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:55,600
Speaker 1: know what chapter this is in the long saga and

235
00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,240
Speaker 1: story of Puerto Rico. But the Puerto Rico Board has

236
00:13:59,320 --> 00:14:03,440
Speaker 1: some checked in the power utilities debt restructuring. Bring us

237
00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:06,360
Speaker 1: up to date on what's going on. Oh man, the

238
00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:09,839
Speaker 1: board last night and executive meeting said that the Prepper deal,

239
00:14:10,720 --> 00:14:16,360
Speaker 1: which promised to give creditors but cents on the dollar

240
00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:18,520
Speaker 1: and was the only deal that they came to pre

241
00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:25,560
Speaker 1: bankruptcy only deal right, Uh, that that no longer was

242
00:14:25,800 --> 00:14:29,080
Speaker 1: alive and that they should go back and uh it

243
00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,040
Speaker 1: looks like, now it's going to happen. If Prepper is

244
00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:33,320
Speaker 1: gonna wind up into some you know that they're gonna

245
00:14:33,320 --> 00:14:38,280
Speaker 1: wind up in Title three bankruptcy along with the you know,

246
00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:42,160
Speaker 1: the Commonwealth, the GEO holders and Cofino holders are slugging

247
00:14:42,160 --> 00:14:44,520
Speaker 1: it out. So now you're gonna have Preppa in the

248
00:14:44,560 --> 00:14:48,280
Speaker 1: same boat. And uh, the board not only did that,

249
00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:52,000
Speaker 1: the Board also threwout the budget last night that was

250
00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:55,400
Speaker 1: passed by the legislature and said, no, you know what,

251
00:14:55,440 --> 00:14:58,120
Speaker 1: you have to take another three million dollars out of

252
00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:00,760
Speaker 1: this budget and the budgets about nine and six billion.

253
00:15:01,000 --> 00:15:03,680
Speaker 1: So they were very busy last night. The board is

254
00:15:04,560 --> 00:15:09,960
Speaker 1: asserting their power. Yeah. Well they also Puerto Rico also

255
00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:14,520
Speaker 1: said that their fiduciary duty was not too bondholders, it

256
00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,640
Speaker 1: was to residents of the island, which is a stark

257
00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:22,680
Speaker 1: departure from typical bankruptcies where the company's fiduciary duty really

258
00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:27,480
Speaker 1: is two creditors first and foremost. Right, Well, you know

259
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:31,360
Speaker 1: the Yeah, they're arguing that today in court. And uh,

260
00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:36,400
Speaker 1: you know, actually, the the adversarial relationship there, we saw

261
00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:42,800
Speaker 1: glimpses of it in nine the Orange County bankruptcy, and

262
00:15:42,840 --> 00:15:48,120
Speaker 1: then it really came back in Detroit, where the city said, well,

263
00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:50,360
Speaker 1: guess what, GEO bond holders are going to have to

264
00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:53,720
Speaker 1: take a haircut, and they did. Uh So, the the

265
00:15:53,800 --> 00:15:57,480
Speaker 1: adversarial nature is something that we have seen in the

266
00:15:57,600 --> 00:16:00,120
Speaker 1: muni market, the business about well, we don't really of

267
00:16:00,120 --> 00:16:02,960
Speaker 1: a fiduciary duty and guess what, we have to take

268
00:16:02,960 --> 00:16:04,960
Speaker 1: care of the people on the island first. Okay, So

269
00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,840
Speaker 1: if that's the case, why why is anyone surprised? Why

270
00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:13,120
Speaker 1: is anyone anyone surprised that the Fiduciary Board is throwing

271
00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,160
Speaker 1: out these agreements, reducing the amount of money in the budget,

272
00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:19,080
Speaker 1: basically doing everything that it can to protect the island

273
00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,480
Speaker 1: and its people rather than creditors. Well, no, actually the

274
00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:27,640
Speaker 1: board went throughout the budget is really saying, you know,

275
00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:29,960
Speaker 1: on the one hand, yes, on the PREPA deal, they're saying,

276
00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:32,080
Speaker 1: it looks like bond holders are gonna have to take

277
00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,240
Speaker 1: more of a haircut than fifteen cents on the dollar.

278
00:16:35,720 --> 00:16:38,640
Speaker 1: But with throwing out the entire budget, they're saying, you

279
00:16:38,680 --> 00:16:41,320
Speaker 1: haven't made enough cuts. There are going to have to

280
00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,400
Speaker 1: either be employee furloughs or we might have to cut

281
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:49,000
Speaker 1: back those Christmas bonuses to government employees on the island. Uh.

282
00:16:49,200 --> 00:16:54,040
Speaker 1: So the board is being how should I put it there,

283
00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:58,040
Speaker 1: being very hard right now, and they should be no cash.

284
00:16:58,080 --> 00:16:59,360
Speaker 1: I mean there was a story in the Wall Street

285
00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:01,480
Speaker 1: Journal this week about how Puerto Rico is looking to

286
00:17:01,520 --> 00:17:05,040
Speaker 1: sell itself off in pieces to raise money. Oh sure, yeah,

287
00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:07,080
Speaker 1: and I suspect that the board is going to have

288
00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,840
Speaker 1: a very um uh you know, they'll have something to

289
00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:13,000
Speaker 1: say about that now. Whether they, you know, approve those

290
00:17:13,040 --> 00:17:16,560
Speaker 1: sorts of sales or not, we'll see. But I would

291
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,960
Speaker 1: say it's almost good, you know, from a I don't

292
00:17:19,960 --> 00:17:22,879
Speaker 1: know from a public finance point of view, that somebody

293
00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:26,920
Speaker 1: on the island is is sitting down and taking things

294
00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:30,200
Speaker 1: very very seriously as opposed to what's sort of gone

295
00:17:30,200 --> 00:17:32,879
Speaker 1: on before here. Well, let's can you just put this

296
00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:35,119
Speaker 1: into some kind of perspective. I think you mentioned what

297
00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:38,160
Speaker 1: the total budget that was passed was nine point nine

298
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:41,919
Speaker 1: point six nine point six billion, just to give that comparison,

299
00:17:41,960 --> 00:17:44,200
Speaker 1: you know, the budget of the City of New York

300
00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:47,840
Speaker 1: is eight five billion. Uh. State of Rhode Island I

301
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:51,440
Speaker 1: think about nine point two billion. Why is I mean

302
00:17:51,480 --> 00:17:56,240
Speaker 1: these are they are large sums, but the havoc that

303
00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:59,600
Speaker 1: they are going to wreck on the economy is gonna

304
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:02,640
Speaker 1: last a much longer time than just a one year budget.

305
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:07,040
Speaker 1: Is there a cohesive plan or is anybody thinking about

306
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:09,159
Speaker 1: what life in Puerto Rico is going to be like

307
00:18:09,280 --> 00:18:14,000
Speaker 1: for businesses and people after this happens? Or presumably the

308
00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:19,280
Speaker 1: the Federal Oversight Board is and they they seem to

309
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:23,560
Speaker 1: have taken or are taking the long term. Look. You

310
00:18:23,640 --> 00:18:26,960
Speaker 1: mentioned that the haddock that this is going to a reek. Uh,

311
00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:29,480
Speaker 1: you know, recall back to the nineteen seventy five in

312
00:18:29,520 --> 00:18:33,439
Speaker 1: New York City, which did not go into Chapter nine bankruptcy,

313
00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:38,760
Speaker 1: but entered a period of austerity that took perhaps ten years. Uh.

314
00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:43,199
Speaker 1: In many ways, a lot of the the infrastructure problems

315
00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:45,960
Speaker 1: we're seeing in New York City today or you know,

316
00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,560
Speaker 1: could almost be traced back to nineteen and that extended

317
00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:52,919
Speaker 1: period of austerity. So who knows how long it's going

318
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:55,719
Speaker 1: to take for Puerto Rico to you know, turn the corner.

319
00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:58,080
Speaker 1: You know, Joe, I have to wonder as we talk

320
00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,199
Speaker 1: and focus on Puerto Rico's differ cultis I have to

321
00:19:01,280 --> 00:19:05,040
Speaker 1: wonder what precedent it sets for Illinois, which is teetering

322
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,800
Speaker 1: close to junk status with respect to its credit rating

323
00:19:09,040 --> 00:19:13,080
Speaker 1: and is facing a whole host of problems. I mean,

324
00:19:13,359 --> 00:19:16,879
Speaker 1: is there anything that debt holders are taking. Are they

325
00:19:17,119 --> 00:19:20,840
Speaker 1: selling more aggressively because they know that they could get um,

326
00:19:20,880 --> 00:19:24,439
Speaker 1: they could get shafted in a future reorganization. Actually, uh,

327
00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:29,840
Speaker 1: you know, the banks I've read several analytical comments in

328
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:32,240
Speaker 1: the last couple of weeks saying, hey, you know what,

329
00:19:32,960 --> 00:19:37,639
Speaker 1: Illinois actually represents a value right now because it's trading

330
00:19:38,119 --> 00:19:41,320
Speaker 1: so far out of line, almost three basis points over

331
00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:45,320
Speaker 1: the triple A scale. So Illinois gus. They're talking New

332
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:50,680
Speaker 1: Jersey appropriation back debt. Uh. The banks are saying that,

333
00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:56,320
Speaker 1: you know, these are recommended because the U States, unlike

334
00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,920
Speaker 1: Puerto Rico, uh you know, A, they don't have bank

335
00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:04,600
Speaker 1: criptsy right now, but be the States are still very

336
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:08,760
Speaker 1: strong and have a lot of flexibility. So it's sound

337
00:20:08,880 --> 00:20:12,919
Speaker 1: you know it always it always sounds apocalyptic and now

338
00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,200
Speaker 1: all right risk on stale for at least across the

339
00:20:16,280 --> 00:20:18,560
Speaker 1: Wall Street analytic desks. Joe Mysak, thank you so much

340
00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,000
Speaker 1: for joining us. Joe Mysak is the editor of the

341
00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,360
Speaker 1: Bloomberg Brief that's focused on the municipal market. Talking all

342
00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:42,280
Speaker 1: things this moment of the muni, stock buybacks and free

343
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,840
Speaker 1: cash flow. How do you use them as a strategy

344
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,520
Speaker 1: in order to make money? Well. Charles Biederman is the

345
00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,800
Speaker 1: chairman of trim Tab's asset management and he joins us

346
00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,520
Speaker 1: now to tell us more. Charles, always a pleasure, Thanks

347
00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:55,879
Speaker 1: for being here in our studio. Maybe you could just

348
00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,560
Speaker 1: give a little bit of a description as to how

349
00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:02,320
Speaker 1: you came to formula this strategy and the experience that

350
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,879
Speaker 1: you have in implementing it. Well, all there is in

351
00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:09,000
Speaker 1: stock market of shares of stock and money, and so

352
00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:12,760
Speaker 1: if companies are growing cash and using a portion of

353
00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,040
Speaker 1: it to reduce the share count, the price of the

354
00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:19,560
Speaker 1: remaining shares should go up by the percentage of the

355
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:23,920
Speaker 1: share count reduction, everything else being equal, particularly since they

356
00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:29,000
Speaker 1: generate using cash that they're generating. Now there's a difference

357
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:32,600
Speaker 1: if they use cash that they're borrowing, because that increase

358
00:21:32,720 --> 00:21:35,760
Speaker 1: increases risk and it means they don't have the cash

359
00:21:35,800 --> 00:21:39,200
Speaker 1: to do it. So you want to buy shares in

360
00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:43,320
Speaker 1: stock first. Companies are growing cash, and if they're using

361
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:46,040
Speaker 1: a portion to reduce the share a count and they're

362
00:21:46,080 --> 00:21:51,280
Speaker 1: not borrowing to buy that's our strategy for trim tabs.

363
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:55,040
Speaker 1: Uh Flow drink et F which we launched in October,

364
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 1: and as you know, we've done quite well since. I've

365
00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 1: been on the show many times with you in the

366
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:03,239
Speaker 1: past us talking about it, Charles, I'm wondering there are

367
00:22:03,240 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 1: so many people who are launching exchange treated funds right now.

368
00:22:07,359 --> 00:22:09,760
Speaker 1: Does it matter whether you have a good idea or

369
00:22:09,960 --> 00:22:13,160
Speaker 1: is there something else that works with respect to marketing

370
00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:17,080
Speaker 1: and e TF Well, I think performance works, always hasn't

371
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:21,000
Speaker 1: always will. In essence, we're a hedge fund at a

372
00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:26,119
Speaker 1: fifty nine speak basis point price. In other words, we

373
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,320
Speaker 1: have a formula and no one else does. Now. We

374
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,560
Speaker 1: just launched today trim tabs International Free cash Flow uh

375
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:34,920
Speaker 1: t t A I is the ticker symbol. It's gonna

376
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 1: do exactly what t t FS does in the US

377
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:40,800
Speaker 1: to non U S stocks. It's going to be about

378
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:49,200
Speaker 1: eighty five stocks UM Developed countries, Asia, Canada, UM, Europe, etcetera.

379
00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,840
Speaker 1: And uh it's companies growing free cash flow, reducing the

380
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,520
Speaker 1: share count and maintaining a strong balance sheet. So it's

381
00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,240
Speaker 1: a global compliment. So the U S one is work.

382
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 1: We've outperformed in the past of the Numbers Show, Morning Star.

383
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:08,200
Speaker 1: Whatever we've outperformed by several hundred basis points over the

384
00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 1: Russell three thousand, and we're hoping to count. You know,

385
00:23:14,320 --> 00:23:18,040
Speaker 1: the design purpose of business is to grow cash, unless,

386
00:23:18,040 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 1: of course, you're Musk or or Netflix, which is design

387
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:25,639
Speaker 1: purposes to grow your stock price. But most companies, if

388
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,600
Speaker 1: they're growing their cash and they use a portion of

389
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:31,680
Speaker 1: it to reduce the share count, everybody wins. I want

390
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:34,760
Speaker 1: to ask about this idea of stock buy backs, because

391
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:39,159
Speaker 1: what happens when a company buy backs buys back the

392
00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 1: stock but doesn't actually retire the shares. In other words,

393
00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 1: they just sit there in the corporate treasury for use

394
00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 1: later on. Perhaps does that matter? Yes, we we don't

395
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:54,960
Speaker 1: look at bibe. We look at share count. How many

396
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:57,880
Speaker 1: shares are outstanding, what they do, how they got there

397
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:00,840
Speaker 1: is not really relevant. As long as they have more

398
00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,320
Speaker 1: cash than they started at the beginning of the period

399
00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,119
Speaker 1: and their debt asset ratio didn't go up. You know,

400
00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:12,439
Speaker 1: it's it's companies, uh or if they're doing well, the

401
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 1: management likes to reduce the share account because the management

402
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,520
Speaker 1: then owns a greater percentage of the company, as does

403
00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 1: every pre existing shareholder. And if they're not growing cash,

404
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,119
Speaker 1: they probably want to sell stock. Well, Charles, how do

405
00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:29,679
Speaker 1: Apple and Google fit into this equation? We know that Apple,

406
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 1: for example, has been a poster child of keeping cash

407
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 1: offshore and issuing debt to buy back shares simply because

408
00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 1: they don't want to have to pay the taxes on

409
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 1: repatriating some of that cash. So where does that company

410
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,280
Speaker 1: stand in this whole equation. Well, there, They've been a

411
00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 1: member of t T a C from the get go,

412
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 1: or from when they started doing buy backs, which was

413
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: I think after eleven uh, and they remain. I mean,

414
00:24:55,119 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: even though they do borrow occasionally, they're debt to asset ratio,

415
00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 1: they're growing cash so fast that even if they borrow

416
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:05,160
Speaker 1: money so they don't have to repatriate, and they're borrowing

417
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 1: a very little, very low rate, that they're still in

418
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:12,400
Speaker 1: our model. Google, on the other hand, is not doing

419
00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:16,080
Speaker 1: any share count reduction that I'm aware of, So well

420
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 1: they are Well, I personally own Google because they create

421
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: their own demand and they're growing cash there. Until they

422
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,199
Speaker 1: do buy backs, they won't be in the fund. You know.

423
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 1: One of the things I thought was interesting is looking

424
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:31,800
Speaker 1: at the constituents of t t f S, which is

425
00:25:31,840 --> 00:25:34,680
Speaker 1: the domestic T T A C T T A C

426
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 1: I beg your pardon. The we were We were removed

427
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:43,320
Speaker 1: as subadvisor. They kept the ticker symbol, but we relaunched

428
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 1: under a new ticker symbol, trimp TEPS, Folk Drink as

429
00:25:45,840 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 1: T T A C. Okay, So all right, so just

430
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 1: so just quickly, this idea of being able to put

431
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,040
Speaker 1: these companies together eighty five in the new one, how

432
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: often do they change? Uh? Uh the twenty I'd say,

433
00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:04,640
Speaker 1: uh have portfolio turnover is the third to a half

434
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,320
Speaker 1: a year. In other words, we only like the last

435
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,640
Speaker 1: six months performance if a company stops growing or stops

436
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 1: meeting the criteria. Every day we track each of the

437
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: three thousand Russell stocks and on our Bloomberg terminal for

438
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,880
Speaker 1: a listing of which are the top one hundred, and

439
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 1: every so often we rebalance and typically h significant number

440
00:26:29,000 --> 00:26:31,399
Speaker 1: fall out. Yeah, Charles Peterman, thank you so much for

441
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,359
Speaker 1: joining us. Charles Peterman as chairman of trim Tab's asset

442
00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,479
Speaker 1: management and he joins us here in our Bloomberg eleven

443
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 1: three oh studios talking about his new International Free cash

444
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 1: Flow et F. Thanks for listening to the Bloomberg P

445
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,240
Speaker 1: and L podcast. You can subscribe and listen to interviews

446
00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:54,320
Speaker 1: at Apple Podcasts, SoundCloud, or whatever podcast platform you prefer.

447
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: I'm Pim Fox. I'm on Twitter at Pam Fox. I'm

448
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 1: on Twitter at Lisa Abrama. It's one before the podcast.

449
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,280
Speaker 1: You can always catch us worldwide on Bloomberg Radio