WEBVTT - Forgiveness, Seinfeld Grudges + The Science of Blame 0:00:01.360 --> 0:00:07.400 Really now, really, really. 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:11.840 Now, really, Hello and welcome to this episode of Really 0:00:11.880 --> 0:00:15.760 No Really with Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden. In today's episode, 0:00:15.880 --> 0:00:19.439 Jason and Peter explore forgiveness with a five time Nobel 0:00:19.440 --> 0:00:22.800 Peace Prize nominee and author of the first scientific study 0:00:22.960 --> 0:00:25.880 on person to person forgiveness. We'll also find out about 0:00:25.880 --> 0:00:29.680 the practice of unconditional forgiveness, how the legal system deals 0:00:29.680 --> 0:00:33.560 with forgiveness, and the scientific reason we blame people, plus 0:00:33.680 --> 0:00:37.720 Jason's mother's non scientific reason for blaming people, and now 0:00:37.880 --> 0:00:38.680 God forgive me. 0:00:38.920 --> 0:00:41.520 Here they are Jason Alexander and Peter Tilden. 0:00:44.120 --> 0:00:46.720 Well, here we are, everybody. It's already been a day. 0:00:47.640 --> 0:00:50.720 We have a children's show filming outside the studio. They're 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:51.600 not supposed to be here. 0:00:51.520 --> 0:00:54.320 By the way, But you know what, let it go. 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:55.120 Let it go. 0:00:55.240 --> 0:00:57.640 Yeah, okay, it's very hard for me to let it go. 0:00:57.800 --> 0:00:59.520 I know people have trouble letting things go. 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:03.840 Some do and some don't. No, most do. Trust me, 0:01:03.960 --> 0:01:06.560 I'm pretty good. We'll talk about this after we talked 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:07.080 to the guests. 0:01:07.080 --> 0:01:09.920 All right, So here's our really for the day, everybody. 0:01:10.319 --> 0:01:12.240 This was a little thing that I read I came, 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:16.640 I came across online and I went, really, so, apparently 0:01:16.800 --> 0:01:19.360 Bennettict Donald. You've heard of ben Atic Donald, Right, we've 0:01:19.360 --> 0:01:21.840 all heard of bennettic Donald. What did he really do? 0:01:22.000 --> 0:01:26.160 What was his big mistake? Christ faux Pas trader? That 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:28.720 seems like a little bit of a you know, he 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:29.560 gave he gave. 0:01:29.440 --> 0:01:31.760 Information to the British gave Yeah. 0:01:31.520 --> 0:01:34.160 He sold He sold out information to the British troops 0:01:34.200 --> 0:01:38.319 in seventeen eighty one, who then raided the British troops 0:01:38.560 --> 0:01:42.880 raided and burned the city of New London, Connecticut. Now 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:46.920 I will I'm gonna spoiler. New London, Connecticut still exists 0:01:47.120 --> 0:01:49.640 to this very day. So it wasn't. It wasn't the 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:53.600 end of the story of New London, Connecticut. But New London, Connecticut, 0:01:54.360 --> 0:01:57.800 for the last two hundred and forty two years, every 0:01:57.880 --> 0:02:02.160 year has a parade and a celebration where they burn 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:06.720 an effigy the trader Benedict Arnold. Two hundred and forty 0:02:06.760 --> 0:02:09.880 two years later, they get out None of these people 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:12.640 were alive then, none of these people probably even have 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:15.600 ancestors that they can trace to this incident. But they 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:17.959 get out there and they burn this guy in effigy 0:02:18.200 --> 0:02:19.400 year after year after year. 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:21.880 So Jason mentions this to me and says, we should 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:27.239 do an episode on forgiveness because these people are they're hard, 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:27.960 they're holding on. 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:29.880 This is a whole hundred and forty two years. 0:02:29.960 --> 0:02:33.880 So we were lucky to get Professor Robert enright on. 0:02:34.680 --> 0:02:38.760 This professor is called a game changer in modern psychology 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:42.400 by the American Psychological Foundation. He holds in and I 0:02:42.400 --> 0:02:44.160 hope I say it right and correct me if I'm wrong. 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:47.480 Aristotleian Professorship. Did I get it right? 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:50.280 Aristotlian, Aristotelean, you just had to hit all the teas 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:55.400 aristotle Alean Professorship in Forgiveness Science at the UW. 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:59.000 Madison School of Education's Department of Educational Psychology. He's also 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:03.760 a five times Nobel HEAs Prize nominee, winner of the 0:03:03.800 --> 0:03:06.800 twenty twenty two American Psychological Foundations Gold Medal Award for 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:08.720 the Impact in Psychology, and on and on and on. 0:03:09.080 --> 0:03:10.919 When it comes to the field of forgiveness, I try 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:12.720 and find us guess this is the guy who are 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:15.200 the guy? And this would be the guy. And we're 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:18.079 so happy he's on, especially today, Oh boy, because we 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:20.240 started with a lot of stuff. He's got tips and 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:22.920 I had to almost talk to then it was it was, 0:03:22.960 --> 0:03:24.600 it was a little bit Harry this morning. Thank you 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:25.560 so much for coming. 0:03:25.320 --> 0:03:28.239 On under doctor Robert Enright. Welcome to really know, really. 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:32.280 Well, thank you very much for having me, Peter and Jason. 0:03:32.400 --> 0:03:33.320 I appreciate it. 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:36.360 So right away, Jay, you should ask him forgiveness for 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:40.160 what we may do. Yeah, really can we can? We 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:43.000 can we have preventative forgiveness? Can we have it ahead 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:45.560 of time? As they thoughts? What do they call it prophilactic? 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:47.720 Any prople actively or an anticipation of it? And the 0:03:47.720 --> 0:03:49.360 other thing I got to ask you because we don't 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:52.640 know you yet, but you seem like an honest fellow 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:56.280 who's gone deep on forgiveness. There's more about forgiveness than anything. Really, 0:03:56.320 --> 0:03:58.880 five nominations for Nobel Peace Prize and you haven't gone 0:03:58.920 --> 0:04:01.280 it yet. You gotta be a grudge. You have to 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:04.600 be someone that we're holding something outside rightbody a minute. 0:04:06.640 --> 0:04:10.560 Yeah, there was one announce today already from an imprisoned 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:13.920 woman in Iran. She deserves it more than I do. 0:04:14.200 --> 0:04:15.680 So there's nothing to forgive there. 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:17.840 You go. Wait, wait, wait, wait, so what you're saying 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:19.920 six times, six times, you. 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:21.520 Know, one more and you're gonna be right up there 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:25.880 with me with the emmy. You know, Jason played, We 0:04:25.920 --> 0:04:26.640 didn't commiserate. 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:28.080 I don't know if you're a Seinfo fan, but he 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:30.760 played George Costanzer for what eighty two years on television 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:33.960 and never got an Emmy for that role because people 0:04:34.000 --> 0:04:36.800 felt it wasn't that good. He just never perfected George. 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:40.680 I guess somebody was always doing a better job at 0:04:40.680 --> 0:04:41.440 their thing than I was. 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:42.800 That that is pretty And I hate to bring it 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:45.160 up that way because I don't know if i'm you know. 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:47.120 Two hundred and forty two years from now, they'll be 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:49.320 burning you in for bringing that up. 0:04:49.400 --> 0:04:52.320 So let's talk about forgiveness for a minute. It's a complicated, 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:57.680 complicated subject, and I loved prepping for this because it 0:04:57.760 --> 0:05:01.600 impacts us in so many ways. Number One societal forgiveness 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:06.039 friendship forgiveness. One great example is I forgive my wife 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:10.080 for the argument we had and she apologizes. I apologize 0:05:10.080 --> 0:05:15.039 because in Western culture we're apologizing. But then next week 0:05:15.040 --> 0:05:17.599 we fight and she says, yeah, but when you said so, 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:19.520 apparently you're bringing that up again. 0:05:20.200 --> 0:05:23.599 You really didn't let go of that, or forgiving is 0:05:23.680 --> 0:05:28.560 not forgetting necessarily, So how do you navigate that? 0:05:29.400 --> 0:05:29.760 Okay? 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:34.880 Well, forgiving takes time, So if your dear wife brings 0:05:34.880 --> 0:05:37.680 it up again, she still might have forgiven you, but 0:05:38.360 --> 0:05:40.520 she needs a little bit more time to get over 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:45.800 that kind of annoyance, you see. And basically, forgiveness is 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:48.240 being good to those who haven't been good to you. 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:52.520 And when you do that, you don't tolerate what the 0:05:52.520 --> 0:05:55.760 other does. You don't excuse what the other does. You 0:05:55.800 --> 0:05:58.960 don't let the other walk all over you. You may 0:05:59.080 --> 0:06:01.760 or may not wreck and sile with the other. Of 0:06:01.800 --> 0:06:04.320 course you will with your dear wife. But if someone 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:06.480 keeps hitting you over the head with a frying pan, 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:09.240 and every time you go back to the person, they say, 0:06:09.279 --> 0:06:10.960 come a little closer so I can hit you a 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:15.520 little harder, you then don't reconcile with that person. And 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:20.240 then another misunderstanding about forgiveness, people say, be good to 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:24.520 those who aren't good to me. Where's the fairness in that? 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:28.760 And there isn't fairness in that, because forgiveness is centered 0:06:28.839 --> 0:06:32.440 and having mercy on others. But you don't forget to 0:06:32.480 --> 0:06:36.280 bring justice along with it. So as you are good 0:06:36.320 --> 0:06:39.440 to those who aren't good to you, seek justice as well. 0:06:39.600 --> 0:06:42.239 Ask the person put the frying pan down. 0:06:44.360 --> 0:06:47.800 Wow. But again that that is a very complicated thing 0:06:48.000 --> 0:06:50.080 and it's it's multifaceted. And I wasn't going to bring 0:06:50.120 --> 0:06:53.040 this up in the beginning, but we know Arnold Micauis 0:06:53.680 --> 0:06:57.599 Arnault was a founding member of the largest skinhead movement 0:06:57.720 --> 0:07:00.240 in the world. And Arnold said to Jayson and in 0:07:00.320 --> 0:07:04.800 me that like with the January sixth incursion or when 0:07:04.800 --> 0:07:07.440 you see tak A k rallies or Nazi rallies, he said, 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:10.880 the counterintuitive thing you need to understand because he left 0:07:10.880 --> 0:07:14.120 the movement, and he said that the way I left 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:17.200 the movement was by people being kind to me. It 0:07:17.240 --> 0:07:19.120 chipped away people that. 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:21.960 He had not been generous or kind too, so it 0:07:22.000 --> 0:07:23.160 chipped the way it came to him. 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:26.240 And he said, it's counterintuitive, but what you got to 0:07:26.280 --> 0:07:29.640 do is love these people, embrace these people, and understand 0:07:29.680 --> 0:07:34.120 these people rather than commit computatively, because they're all broken people. 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:38.520 And what the way to co opt them is by 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:42.480 forgiving and reaching out to them that way, because it'll 0:07:42.520 --> 0:07:44.360 never happen the other way. And the reason he left 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:48.160 the movement and forgave was because of all those little 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:51.880 acts of kindness by people he hated, who he marched against, 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:56.000 who he spoke against, which was a pretty powerful thing 0:07:56.000 --> 0:07:57.080 for me and Jason at the time. 0:07:57.280 --> 0:07:59.360 It was very strong. Is that the essence of what 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:04.400 you're talking about as being able to treat with charity 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:09.400 and kindness and as you say, mercy those who not 0:08:09.680 --> 0:08:12.080 necessarily have yet earned it. 0:08:13.200 --> 0:08:17.400 Indeed, the forgiveness is not earned, you've got it. The 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:21.280 idea of mercy is you give people the goodness even 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:26.200 if they don't deserve it, and that can be spectacularly 0:08:26.320 --> 0:08:31.560 beautiful because most people don't expect it. They are sometimes 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:36.760 stunned by it. And one I think real good lesson 0:08:36.960 --> 0:08:40.800 from what you just said about the skinhead movement. A 0:08:40.880 --> 0:08:45.000 lot of those in there probably have very wounded hearts 0:08:45.760 --> 0:08:50.280 from other people who treated them unfairly, and their fists 0:08:50.280 --> 0:08:54.400 are clinched and their jaws are tightened for what might 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:59.320 have happened in their childhood, and they're now reproducing the 0:08:59.360 --> 0:09:04.040 wounds that happened to them toward other people. And once 0:09:04.120 --> 0:09:11.240 they can experience other's kindness, their hearts can soften, and 0:09:11.280 --> 0:09:16.160 then the cycle of patred or revenge, your acrimony actually 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:21.319 can cease. And that really is I think the discovery 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:26.720 in psychology about forgiveness that it can cut into the 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:31.520 effects of trauma and heal people's hearts deeper than most 0:09:31.559 --> 0:09:34.520 psychotherapies that are being around for one hundred years. 0:09:35.200 --> 0:09:38.760 Defintely, But speaking to that, because what you're talking about 0:09:38.880 --> 0:09:41.160 for someone to be able to offer that gift to 0:09:41.200 --> 0:09:45.040 someone after they themselves have been harmed by that person, 0:09:46.800 --> 0:09:52.200 especially if the person who's harming them is not yet repentant, 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:55.839 how do you make the argument or do you make 0:09:55.880 --> 0:10:00.520 an argument for it being beneficial for the person doing 0:10:00.559 --> 0:10:03.840 the forgiving? Is what is the benefit? What does the 0:10:03.880 --> 0:10:07.600 person who is offering the forgiveness feel or experience that 0:10:07.720 --> 0:10:09.520 makes it doable? 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:14.920 You know's think about that. That's an important question. When 0:10:15.040 --> 0:10:20.559 people treat us deeply unjustly, what tends to happen is 0:10:20.720 --> 0:10:25.520 anger starts building in the heart, and psychologists make a 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:30.120 distinction between healthy anger and unhealthy anger. Healthy anger is 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:33.440 when someone treats you unjustly. At first, you say, look, 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:37.079 I'm a person of worth, it's not fair. I'm offended, 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:43.320 but you get over that quickly. Unhealthy anger is a 0:10:43.440 --> 0:10:48.160 very unwelcome guest in the human heart. The unhealthy anger 0:10:48.360 --> 0:10:51.800 comes into your heart, takes off his shoes, sits on 0:10:51.840 --> 0:10:54.720 the couch of your heart, and doesn't want to leave. 0:10:55.559 --> 0:10:59.680 And as you live with this unhealthy anger, which literally 0:11:00.120 --> 0:11:04.360 could keep it for forty years, you tend to have 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:09.040 lower energy. You tend to be disrupted in sleep. You 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:14.000 tend to perhaps ruminate on the other and that person 0:11:14.400 --> 0:11:18.319 and all the bad stuff from that person is now 0:11:18.400 --> 0:11:22.080 living in your heart. That person has a lot of 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:26.160 power over you. Think about it. That person might have 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:30.559 been unfair to you forty years ago, and all the 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:34.040 effects of that are still in your heart. If you 0:11:34.200 --> 0:11:38.720 wait to forgive until you hear three little words, I 0:11:38.760 --> 0:11:42.920 am sorry, you're still giving that person way too much 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:48.439 power over you. But forgiveness does paradoxically, our science shows this. 0:11:49.440 --> 0:11:53.680 When you decide it's a free choice to be good 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:56.959 to those who aren't good to you, that anger in 0:11:57.040 --> 0:12:01.600 the heart starts chipping away, it starts going down, and 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:05.360 then the anxiety, the depression, not even the not liking 0:12:05.440 --> 0:12:10.480 yourself can change, and that person no longer has power 0:12:10.480 --> 0:12:15.560 over you. So you don't want what has happened to you, 0:12:16.320 --> 0:12:19.120 to have the effects live with you till you take 0:12:19.160 --> 0:12:23.120 it to the grave. Take that person's power away from 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:28.840 you unconditionally, before the person says anything otherwise, you're sitting 0:12:28.880 --> 0:12:31.960 there saying, Okay, have all the power over me you want. 0:12:32.000 --> 0:12:34.520 I'm gonna stay miserable until I hear the three little 0:12:34.520 --> 0:12:36.440 words don't let it happen. 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:38.000 That is so good. 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:43.280 Peter knows that I have been following a gentleman on 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:46.600 social media for a while who's who is called sad Guru. 0:12:46.679 --> 0:12:50.160 He's a yogi and a guru, and he has this 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:54.800 wonderful expression that I find so aspirational, where he says, yes, 0:12:54.880 --> 0:12:57.640 I feel everything everybody else does. I feel anger, I 0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:00.600 feel joy, I feel regret, I feel he says, but 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:04.800 I don't give anyone else permission to take my joy 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:08.760 from me. Big go, I can take my joy from me, 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:11.240 but I don't give anyone else person to take it 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:14.280 from me. And that was that was a great reflection 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:16.959 of that statement. It actually makes it a little more 0:13:17.000 --> 0:13:18.880 knowable to me than just the aphorism. 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:21.480 That makes sense that they have power over you. And 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:23.720 I'm curious, doctoran right you have to forgive this Institute. 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:25.280 I want to talk about that in a minute in 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:27.960 the mission. And you've devoted this part of your life. 0:13:28.000 --> 0:13:30.000 I think I read that you were doing work that 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:32.400 was academic work that just wasn't fulfilling, and then you 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:36.079 found this and it became your calling. Yes, and so 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:39.120 you're you're the guy. But I'm wondering and hearing that 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:42.520 I've been really lucky like Jason, and we joke about 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:44.280 this a lot, but he really is my best friend, 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:47.760 and we have had knockdown, drag out fights about stuff 0:13:47.800 --> 0:13:51.120 that have bothered me, bothered him, and when it's over, 0:13:51.200 --> 0:13:55.120 I always am shocked, not shocked, but there's zero growth, 0:13:55.240 --> 0:14:00.280 There's zero leftover residual. It's never like, well I'm mad 0:14:00.360 --> 0:14:02.640 at him for anything that he's done. There's nothing there, 0:14:03.000 --> 0:14:05.680 which was a real eye opener for me. But my 0:14:05.800 --> 0:14:08.680 question is, and that's in that situation it works. But societally, 0:14:09.440 --> 0:14:11.640 we don't learn this in school, we don't have anybody 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:14.400 instructing us. But there are cultures that forgive. And I 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:17.880 started in preparation for this reading about Hawaii and the 0:14:17.880 --> 0:14:20.160 fact in the Hawaiian culture they have what's it called huna, 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:25.040 which is unconditional forgiveness. No matter what the person has done, 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:28.880 you forgive them for that very reason, because it's holding 0:14:28.920 --> 0:14:30.880 their power over you. How does that work? How does 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:36.240 the society decide to adapt that, especially when we're legally 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:39.400 the most punishing and incarcerating society, one of them in 0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:41.680 the world. Yes, you're right. 0:14:42.160 --> 0:14:45.920 A lot of that depends on the norms created within 0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:51.480 the group. Another example, if you recall, were the Amish 0:14:51.600 --> 0:14:54.000 when I think it was around two thousand and seven, 0:14:54.600 --> 0:14:57.040 a man came in with a gun into a one 0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:01.880 room schoolhouse and killed little girls and named others, and 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:05.920 the Amish shocked to the world by attending his funeral 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:11.720 and starting a scholarship for his children forgiving, and the 0:15:11.760 --> 0:15:14.720 world was saying, what's going on. I had a lot 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:17.840 of media requests for that, and I had to say, 0:15:18.200 --> 0:15:20.600 I'd better find out what's going on because I don't 0:15:20.600 --> 0:15:22.880 know the answer. So I looked into it, and I 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:27.680 found that the Amish practice forgiveness on a daily basis. 0:15:28.240 --> 0:15:30.680 It's part of their prayers, it's part of their norms 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:34.239 and families. You see, they were building up their hearts 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:38.200 with the strength of forgiveness, becoming what I call forgivingly 0:15:38.440 --> 0:15:42.960 fit prior to the atrocity, so by the time the 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:47.680 atrocity happened, they had been practicing forgiveness and the little 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:52.960 things of their everyday lives, their everyday local Amish community, 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:57.040 and their families, so they were ready for this. It's 0:15:57.080 --> 0:16:01.600 the same thing with Hawaii. Another expression is help on, 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:06.440 where they have the norm of forgiving those who have 0:16:06.760 --> 0:16:11.640 hurt them. Well, you are becoming forgiving, they fit. You're 0:16:11.680 --> 0:16:16.600 building your forgiveness muscle waiting for the atrocity to happen, 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:20.480 because it's going to happen at some point. Many in Hawaii. 0:16:20.560 --> 0:16:23.480 You're ready for that. The Amish, certainly we're ready for that. 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:28.160 You're right. In our society when we go to school, 0:16:28.200 --> 0:16:30.400 we teach kids to sit up straight, take the gum 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:34.360 out of their mouth, conjugate verbs, and know what the 0:16:34.400 --> 0:16:38.080 capital of Missouri is. But we don't ask them to 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:43.520 prepare for the injustices that invariably will hurt us all. 0:16:43.920 --> 0:16:46.520 And what's the point of education. Isn't it to prepare 0:16:46.520 --> 0:16:51.040 for adulthood? Why or why are we not preparing children 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:54.600 for the atrocities that will happen to them, as the 0:16:54.680 --> 0:16:57.640 Amish have. We need to learn that lesson and put 0:16:57.680 --> 0:17:02.680 forgiveness into education because all the children. I would take 0:17:02.680 --> 0:17:04.399 it away from them if I could, but I'm not 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:08.560 that powerful. They're going to have injustices against them. 0:17:08.680 --> 0:17:11.520 How do they handle By the way, another incident that 0:17:11.600 --> 0:17:15.320 I think we all remember is the female police officer 0:17:15.320 --> 0:17:18.280 who went into the wrong apartment and shot the unarmed 0:17:18.320 --> 0:17:23.240 African American guy in his apartment. And at trial, the 0:17:23.280 --> 0:17:26.960 person who died I think brother, came down and hugged 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:30.880 the police officer. The family embraced the pe police officers, 0:17:30.920 --> 0:17:34.679 the judge did, and a lot of people watching it 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:38.280 was so moving. I mean, I'm tearing out. You go, 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:41.399 how they just killed somebody that you loved as a 0:17:41.400 --> 0:17:44.040 family member. How did you do that? And it spurned 0:17:44.080 --> 0:17:47.480 a lot of conversation because it was so foreign to 0:17:47.600 --> 0:17:49.840 our society to look at that and say, how are 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:51.320 you doing that? How is that even possible? 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:55.960 But in that particular example, and you know, there was 0:17:56.080 --> 0:18:00.119 the understanding that a mistake had been made, right, But 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:05.800 I'm wondering about I also want to explore with you, 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:09.199 you know, the practicality of how you do teach the 0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:11.960 steps of forgiveness. But before we get into that, is 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:14.959 there how do you respond to anybody that might make 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:18.879 the argument that if you are, as you say, preparing 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:22.760 for forgiveness, if you're building the forgiveness muscle, does that 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:28.560 make you more tolerant of abuse? Because, so I'm going 0:18:28.640 --> 0:18:34.080 to be really specific, Jews in Nazi Germany could see 0:18:34.119 --> 0:18:38.760 the small incidents of aggression building before the actual Holocaust began. 0:18:40.640 --> 0:18:43.879 If they were I mean, I'm not a historian, and 0:18:43.960 --> 0:18:46.960 I don't know what the process was there, But if 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:50.320 they had all been for going, well, okay, let's forgive that. 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:52.320 We can tolerate this, we can do that, We can 0:18:52.359 --> 0:18:58.200 give this. If they had been less of I don't 0:18:58.200 --> 0:18:59.719 know if it was forgiveness, but if they had been 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:03.160 less accepting of the conditions as they were building, would 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:06.560 they have avoided the greater Holocaust? Is there a possibility 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:12.240 of being too accepting and too forgiving and therefore inviting 0:19:12.320 --> 0:19:13.560 calamity on yourself? 0:19:14.400 --> 0:19:15.280 Absolutely? 0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:17.440 None, okay, And. 0:19:17.440 --> 0:19:21.680 Here's why would we go deeply into forgiveness and get 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:23.680 it right? And that's what we need to do as 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:28.920 a society, not misunderstand it. We realize this, what happened 0:19:28.960 --> 0:19:32.919 to us was wrong, is wrong, and will always be wrong. 0:19:33.960 --> 0:19:41.440 We never back off from the rationality, the realization that 0:19:41.760 --> 0:19:45.360 these things are wrong. So what was happening in Nazi Germany? 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:47.000 We're wrong. 0:19:47.320 --> 0:19:51.280 When you forgive, you don't focus on the wrong and say, well, 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:54.080 maybe it's more right than I thought. No, no, no, 0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:59.440 it is always wrong. What's your target when you forgive 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:04.400 the person? It's the other person, not the incident itself. 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:07.960 And so when we forgive, we look at the other 0:20:08.240 --> 0:20:12.120 by widening the angle of our lens as to who 0:20:12.160 --> 0:20:15.840 this other is as a human being. And that's how 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:19.560 we can be softer toward that person. But we bring 0:20:19.840 --> 0:20:24.040 justice alongside, and we ask something of that person, and 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:28.360 we ask something, so these incidents don't keep going. Forgiveness 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:30.960 can actually help you be more tough minded this way. 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:35.920 Why because to forgive always is in the context without exception, 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:39.680 of being treated unfairly. So when you see it's unfair, 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:42.160 you stand firm and you never give up on that. 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:45.720 You might have a softer heart toward the person. But 0:20:45.800 --> 0:20:57.880 now let's bring justice in and say get this done right, buddy. 0:21:00.280 --> 0:21:02.159 So when you bring justice in, that leads me to 0:21:02.200 --> 0:21:05.680 our legal system, our law. Okay, So our legal system, 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:08.720 for instance, the bankruptcy on Wall Street. All the bankruptcy 0:21:08.760 --> 0:21:11.119 in two thousand and eight, nobody was even blamed, So 0:21:11.119 --> 0:21:12.760 there's not even forgiveness. Yet there are a lot of 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:15.639 people who are still digging out from what happened there. 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:18.119 And then you've got clemency and pardons that go to 0:21:18.160 --> 0:21:20.360 certain people and not to other people, and usually it's 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:25.119 connections in power. You got most of America wants to 0:21:25.160 --> 0:21:28.280 forgive pot crimes. And yet, like I said, we're the 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:30.520 most incarcerating society. So how does it work in our 0:21:30.560 --> 0:21:33.439 legal system because that seems completely if I may use 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:34.800 a legal term for coct. 0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:40.720 Yeah, well, there is a difference between legal pardon and forgiving. 0:21:41.280 --> 0:21:43.840 When we do the legal pardon, it's usually not the 0:21:43.920 --> 0:21:47.920 judge who's been offended, and so there's an issue with 0:21:47.960 --> 0:21:52.239 regard to the law, but nothing personal, and forgiveness is 0:21:52.400 --> 0:21:55.880 always personal. I am the one with the wounded heart. 0:21:56.080 --> 0:21:59.120 I'm the one who's reaching out. But you know, you're right, 0:21:59.240 --> 0:22:02.520 the legal system them desperately needs forgiveness, and here's where 0:22:02.520 --> 0:22:06.840 it needs it. We did a study of over one 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:11.960 hundred men who were in a maximum security correctional institution 0:22:12.640 --> 0:22:17.399 and we interviewed them on any grave injustices that have 0:22:17.480 --> 0:22:22.760 ever happened to them in childhood or adolescents, grave issues 0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:25.639 like being thrown out of the house, like being beaten 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:30.680 or sexually abused. What percentage of these one hundred men 0:22:31.920 --> 0:22:39.880 reported grave injustices against them in childhood or adolescence cloaks 0:22:40.119 --> 0:22:44.399 yet ninety percent? And you know what, forty percent of 0:22:44.440 --> 0:22:47.480 them never told anyone about it. And when I put 0:22:47.520 --> 0:22:50.000 myself in their shoes, I asked myself, how could I 0:22:50.040 --> 0:22:54.480 live under these circumstances. And so we have a situation 0:22:54.640 --> 0:23:00.840 of gravely abused people in maximum security prison, and the 0:23:00.880 --> 0:23:04.800 rehabilitation doesn't even have this on the radar. What we 0:23:04.960 --> 0:23:09.720 have to do is bring forgiveness into the legal system 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:14.760 by looking at what has happened to those who perpetrate 0:23:14.880 --> 0:23:19.040 grave crime onto others, because a lot of their hatred 0:23:19.480 --> 0:23:23.119 spills over to others. We then did an intervention with 0:23:23.280 --> 0:23:25.680 some of these men. One of the guys with whom 0:23:25.720 --> 0:23:29.480 we worked was in there for life because he was 0:23:29.560 --> 0:23:33.600 accused and convicted of thirty murders and suspected of one hundred. 0:23:34.520 --> 0:23:37.800 He was so filled with hatred that he was killing others. 0:23:38.520 --> 0:23:43.320 We helped him to forgive those who abused him in childhood, 0:23:44.000 --> 0:23:49.120 and he quieted down. He was safer in prisoners, making 0:23:49.480 --> 0:23:54.160 it safer for others because his rage wasn't coming out anymore. 0:23:54.400 --> 0:23:56.200 Do you see how we really have to start? 0:23:56.280 --> 0:23:58.680 It feels as you're saying it. I can hear the response. 0:23:58.760 --> 0:24:02.880