1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,639 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,360 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called 6 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:31,280 Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our super producer 7 00:00:31,440 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: Paul Mission controlled decades. Most importantly, you are you. You 8 00:00:35,600 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this the stuff they don't 9 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:42,280 Speaker 1: want you to know. Maybe today we start with a question, 10 00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: what is here? Where are we? Where are you? Are 11 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:50,680 Speaker 1: we in the same universe? Are we in an alternate one? 12 00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: Are we creations of fact? Are we creations of fiction? 13 00:00:55,680 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 1: And what are we in turn creating? What's the line 14 00:00:58,360 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: between fact and fiction? And what happens when a game 15 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:06,320 Speaker 1: gets out of hands? A long time listeners, fellow conspiracy realists, 16 00:01:06,360 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: you know that your three faithful correspondents here are all 17 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:12,640 Speaker 1: big fans of games. We're all, I think it's safe 18 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:16,839 Speaker 1: to say, fans of things that other people might consider weird. 19 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 1: You know, whether we're talking about modern folklore, whether we're 20 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: talking about what was that episode we did a long 21 00:01:23,760 --> 00:01:28,199 Speaker 1: time not too long ago, um about the alternate reality 22 00:01:28,319 --> 00:01:33,440 Speaker 1: game in California, Remember You'd slide down. Yeah, it was 23 00:01:33,520 --> 00:01:38,360 Speaker 1: like a weird kind of psychedelic techie scavenger hunt. There 24 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: was like a pinball machine or something that opened up 25 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,120 Speaker 1: or like they were old weird video games with like 26 00:01:43,200 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: you know, um at what do they call those old 27 00:01:45,000 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: like tube TV kind of things, like a Commodore sixty four. No, 28 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: I know what it was. It was an arcade cabinet. 29 00:01:50,280 --> 00:01:52,280 Speaker 1: It would be like this hidden arcade you'd find and 30 00:01:52,280 --> 00:01:53,600 Speaker 1: then you play the game and it would be this 31 00:01:53,640 --> 00:01:55,640 Speaker 1: like rabbit thing that would come up and give you 32 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: clues as to how to find the secret mystical room. Amazing. 33 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: We also looked at the company that created it and 34 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: found all the other r g s they had created 35 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:10,520 Speaker 1: in the past and rather super cool concept the company 36 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: came up with and had writers who created it and 37 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: people who created the machines and created the clues. Uh 38 00:02:18,120 --> 00:02:20,000 Speaker 1: So it's very neat that a group of people can 39 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: get together and make something like that. The June Institute 40 00:02:24,240 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: that was that was one of these uh yeah, And 41 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:29,840 Speaker 1: we we want to thank again the creators of some 42 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: of those a r g s for taking the time 43 00:02:31,800 --> 00:02:34,440 Speaker 1: to write to the show and give us an insider 44 00:02:34,560 --> 00:02:39,600 Speaker 1: look at this. We we were able to explore those 45 00:02:39,639 --> 00:02:44,840 Speaker 1: this way because those games had ended, so we weren't 46 00:02:45,000 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: violating what the world of wrestling would call cafeve But uh, 47 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: we're going deeper into something like this. We're exploring the 48 00:02:55,080 --> 00:03:01,600 Speaker 1: strange agglomeration of fact and fiction and the at times 49 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:06,680 Speaker 1: dangerous story of something called Ang's Hat. If you're a 50 00:03:06,680 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: longtime denizen of the Internet, or you hang out in uh, 51 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: you hang out in underground bookstores known for their zines, 52 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 1: then you may already be aware of this. But here 53 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:23,600 Speaker 1: are the facts. First things. First, we have to tell 54 00:03:23,600 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: you Ang's Hat is not right now, It's not a 55 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:34,600 Speaker 1: hat that's circulating around right. Uh. It is instead the 56 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: name of a former town out in Burlington County, New Jersey, 57 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:46,520 Speaker 1: Pine Barren Country. It's a ghost town nowadays. Supposedly it's 58 00:03:46,560 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: a it's a small ghost town. Right. There's so many 59 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,560 Speaker 1: things that Angs Hat could be or may like may 60 00:03:54,600 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: have been. Theoretically, it's a ghost town out there in 61 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: the pine barrens. Yeah, yeah, shout out already to Sopranos 62 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: and the X Files. Uh, you know what, it's a 63 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:11,560 Speaker 1: good point right now, if you look at if you 64 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,920 Speaker 1: look at maps as recently as two thousand and six 65 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:20,359 Speaker 1: or so, you'll see remnants of human construction ruins, you know, 66 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:24,720 Speaker 1: brick foundations and old sheds, sometimes described as a hut. 67 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:29,440 Speaker 1: But calling it a town on our part is pretty generous. 68 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: The history of this place, according to the official records 69 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,040 Speaker 1: in this universe, uh, it dates back to well before 70 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:42,360 Speaker 1: the Revolutionary War. It has also become home to one 71 00:04:42,400 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 1: of the very first conspiracy theories grown on the internet. Uh. 72 00:04:49,279 --> 00:04:52,560 Speaker 1: And there's something I think we should have some historical 73 00:04:52,640 --> 00:04:55,839 Speaker 1: context again from our universe. We'll call it universe A. 74 00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,280 Speaker 1: How did it get this weird name, Ang's Hat? We 75 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:04,000 Speaker 1: were just talking about this in the previous episode. I 76 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:06,880 Speaker 1: don't know about you, guys, but I love ridiculous town names. 77 00:05:07,320 --> 00:05:10,800 Speaker 1: I love. I love like being on a road trip 78 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,400 Speaker 1: and running into some place called give Up. You know. 79 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: It's also Weed, California, which is that? Yeah? And Ang's 80 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:24,279 Speaker 1: Hat is part of a long tradition of weird names 81 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:27,640 Speaker 1: for small towns in in these United States and in 82 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: Canada as well. But there's a bit of folklore about 83 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: the etymology of this town's name, and just there there 84 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,920 Speaker 1: are many different versions of this. They're like four primary versions. Uh, 85 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:43,480 Speaker 1: there's one kind of myth busting version will give you 86 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:46,559 Speaker 1: towards the end of this. But let's let's talk about 87 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:51,000 Speaker 1: the fun one. Let's think about the Jacob Ang. What's 88 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:56,080 Speaker 1: his deal? Ah? Well, well, while it wasn't invented, he 89 00:05:56,160 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: was a guy who would have consumed a lot of 90 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:04,800 Speaker 1: cavasier that a sense. Yeah, he's the ladies the ladies man. Sorry, 91 00:06:04,880 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: that's that just dates me. Wow, I'm uh making SNL 92 00:06:09,880 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 1: jokes about the ladies man. Okay, um, but yeah, well 93 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: far you all right? This guy, this guy, um, he 94 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,719 Speaker 1: enjoyed women, and he also enjoyed his hats, specifically a 95 00:06:22,320 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 1: silken hat, very very nice hat. And the way the 96 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 1: story goes, at least the one that I've heard, is 97 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: that he was in a bit of an argument, let's say, 98 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: with one of the people with whom he was keeping company, 99 00:06:34,600 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: and he threw his hat, landed on a tree and 100 00:06:38,480 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: it became Ang's hat. At least that's what i've heard, Ben, 101 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: what have you heard? Well, that's there are a couple 102 00:06:45,080 --> 00:06:48,359 Speaker 1: of similar versions, right, there's another version. Let's go with 103 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: the hat throwing. There's another version that he was out, 104 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: you know, wooing the fairer sex as as they would 105 00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: say back in that day. And he had some haters. Man, 106 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,559 Speaker 1: he had envious suitors who had lost the game of love, 107 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: and he one of these guys, one of these haters 108 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 1: grabbed Ang's hat and it was like you stink your rake, 109 00:07:14,960 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: and he stomped on it and he ruined it, grinding 110 00:07:18,080 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: it into the mud of the pine barrens. And then 111 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:24,800 Speaker 1: Ang saw that his hat was ruined, and so he 112 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: frisbeed it up high in the air fiddle d D, 113 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,600 Speaker 1: you can't stop me. And and in this story speaks 114 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 1: in rhyme, I guess and uh. It latches onto a 115 00:07:37,080 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: very high branch of a pine tree. You know, they're everywhere. 116 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:43,600 Speaker 1: It's the pine barrens, and no one could reach it, 117 00:07:43,880 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: and there it stayed for years and years and years, 118 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:49,239 Speaker 1: and it became because it was such a distinct hat, 119 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: it became a landmark there in the woods for people, 120 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: and they would just start referring to that area as 121 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 1: Ang's hat. This may not be true. There are other versions, 122 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: like you know, the one you mentioned that he threw 123 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:05,880 Speaker 1: it while he was courting right, and there was no 124 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: envious lover involved. Then there's the idea that he had 125 00:08:08,800 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 1: a tavern and he put a little shingle out that 126 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: had a hat on it, and then the town became 127 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:18,840 Speaker 1: named after the tavern. But we're telling you this historical 128 00:08:18,960 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: context to let you know, Ang's hat is perfect casting 129 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:28,920 Speaker 1: for a conspiracy theory location for a setting, because it 130 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: already has always been associated with uncertain narratives and unreliable narrators. Later, 131 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: in fact, in the New York I think in the 132 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:44,719 Speaker 1: sixties a descendant of the Ang family. Ang was a 133 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:46,920 Speaker 1: kind of common name in New Jersey at this time, 134 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 1: apparently uh in there. But in the nineties sixties, Fast 135 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: awarded a descendant of the Ang family rights to the 136 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 1: New York Times and says, look, these legends are fun, 137 00:08:58,200 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: but that's because their legends. He says, Really, what happened 138 00:09:01,880 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: is my family was evolved in the grain trade, and 139 00:09:05,520 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: we were transporting grain, and then the trip was long 140 00:09:10,360 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: enough that we needed a midpoint or away station arresting place, 141 00:09:15,640 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: and so we built this hut so we could crash 142 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 1: with the grain and make the trip in a reasonable 143 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:24,720 Speaker 1: amount of time. And it was and he said, this 144 00:09:24,800 --> 00:09:27,840 Speaker 1: was originally just called Ang's Hut, and for some reason, 145 00:09:28,280 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 1: over the Great Game of Telephone, it got corrupted into 146 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: Ang's Hat. That's an understandable thing, and that person seems 147 00:09:36,640 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: to have some credibility because they might have access to 148 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:45,800 Speaker 1: oral oral memories or oral retellings that non family members 149 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:50,200 Speaker 1: wouldn't have. But that's the point. People have been saying 150 00:09:50,240 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 1: conflicting things about this for a very very very long time. 151 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: And if you're familiar with deep Internet lore, I don't 152 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:02,040 Speaker 1: want to date anybody, but if you're familiar with the 153 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: days when not everyone was on the Internet, you may 154 00:10:06,000 --> 00:10:09,480 Speaker 1: have heard of Ang's Hat in a very different context. 155 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: It's a story of mad science, alternate universes, and conspiracy. Yeah, 156 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,079 Speaker 1: there's anybody out there. Remember b B B B s is. 157 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:24,160 Speaker 1: Those were fun sort of use net early news groups 158 00:10:24,240 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: and Internet bulletin boards and all of that. It was 159 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 1: like pre aim. This is pre this was like Prodigy. 160 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:33,199 Speaker 1: This is earlier than that. Now, this is back when 161 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: I think it was using that situation. The first tale 162 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: of this conspiracy emerged on one of those Internet bulletin 163 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:42,200 Speaker 1: board systems. And also there were you know, zines which 164 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:45,199 Speaker 1: were kind of like d I Y publications that folks 165 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 1: would print and distribute photocopy, and that was the way 166 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 1: a lot of people got there, like music, new music, news, um, 167 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: any niche kind of interest you would probably be on 168 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:57,640 Speaker 1: a bulletin board or if you didn't have the Internet 169 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:00,760 Speaker 1: or live some more rural these means you could like 170 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 1: mail order them and stuff. It was important. So according 171 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:06,760 Speaker 1: to this tale, Songs had only appeared to be a 172 00:11:06,800 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: ghost town. UM in n there was a guy named 173 00:11:10,120 --> 00:11:13,720 Speaker 1: Wally Ford who bought over two acres of land uh 174 00:11:13,800 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: in this area and built an ashram um that became 175 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:22,320 Speaker 1: quietly popular among those who kind of knew that world, 176 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: you know, particularly Princeton physicists who are looking for safe, 177 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: secret places to conduct experiments UM that wouldn't be allowed 178 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:36,280 Speaker 1: and say, you know, they're the halls of knowledge with 179 00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: the oversight of the brass and things like that, you know, 180 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: with prying eyes looking in on their um their work. UM. 181 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:46,120 Speaker 1: So we're talking here about quantum physics, specifically things like 182 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:52,160 Speaker 1: chaos theory, UM, multiverse type stuff, interdimensional travel. Yeah, and 183 00:11:52,160 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: and we we have to point out this what we're 184 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: saying here, all this stuff about a person named Wally Ford, 185 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 1: the human being Wally four this may or may not 186 00:12:02,679 --> 00:12:07,480 Speaker 1: be fictional. This is part of the story of Ang's Hat, right, 187 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: So the human being named Wally Ford who bought acres 188 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: of land and built an ashram may or may not 189 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 1: be real. Yeah, we'll we'll address that first, right, But 190 00:12:20,720 --> 00:12:24,840 Speaker 1: that's a great point right now. Right now, folks, consider 191 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:29,040 Speaker 1: yourself sitting around with your pals, your old drugs around 192 00:12:29,040 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: the camp fire, and we're just strangers sharing a story 193 00:12:33,600 --> 00:12:37,800 Speaker 1: with each other. So yes, Once upon a time, these 194 00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:44,959 Speaker 1: Princeton scientists found an intersection, possibly very ancient intersection between 195 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: what modern humans recognize as science and what modern humans 196 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:55,319 Speaker 1: recognize as spirituality, as ancient wisdom, and they wanted to 197 00:12:55,400 --> 00:13:00,400 Speaker 1: unlock the powers of the human mind. Just like various 198 00:13:00,400 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 1: other conspiratorial groups of mad scientists in the world of fiction. 199 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: They thought, we can blend these ancient learnings from the 200 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: Ashram and it's it's leaders. We can blend these with 201 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: bleeding edge science with our theories that would get us 202 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 1: blacklisted from the Ivy League, and we can using these 203 00:13:23,920 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 1: two sources of knowledge, train human minds too, eventually not 204 00:13:30,280 --> 00:13:36,960 Speaker 1: just access alternate realities, but to manipulate the nature of 205 00:13:37,000 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: reality itself and you'll see why this is so interesting 206 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: at the end of today's show, at least in this universe. 207 00:13:43,800 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: So right, we've got this set up. They continue and 208 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:51,319 Speaker 1: sometime in the late nineteen eighties they built something. They 209 00:13:51,360 --> 00:13:56,720 Speaker 1: called it the egg. If you are a fan of fiction, Uh, well, 210 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:00,240 Speaker 1: if you're a fan of like the uh I cake 211 00:14:00,320 --> 00:14:03,760 Speaker 1: experiments that have been conducted by various entities, or you 212 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:07,480 Speaker 1: enjoy fiction like Stranger Things, which is a love letter 213 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:10,079 Speaker 1: to a lot of these sorts of stories, then you'll 214 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,199 Speaker 1: be familiar with the idea of a sensory deprivation chamber. 215 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:16,920 Speaker 1: Sensory deprivation chambers are super cool. I'm a fan of them, 216 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: or pal Robert Lamb from Stuff to Bow your Mind 217 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:23,760 Speaker 1: also a big fan. Uh. They their egg was special. 218 00:14:24,280 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: Their egg would help them originally determine the exact moment 219 00:14:29,680 --> 00:14:33,600 Speaker 1: when a wave becomes a particle. And you know, that's 220 00:14:33,640 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 1: something that physics has been wrestling with for quite a 221 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:42,600 Speaker 1: long time, right, and it's neat, Right, that's cool, that's neat. 222 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 1: Why wouldn't Princeton let you do that? You know, at 223 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: their spot it seems like that would be amazing science anyway, 224 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: So they thought this was neat. They're doing this bleeding 225 00:14:55,400 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: edge science and one day during testing, egg disappears for 226 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 1: seven minutes with someone inside. Now what happens during those 227 00:15:09,000 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: seven minutes in the lab lost the history in this universe. 228 00:15:15,160 --> 00:15:17,120 Speaker 1: I gotta stop saying that, but has lost history in 229 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:23,800 Speaker 1: this universe. Luckily, the agg reappears seven minutes pass comes back. 230 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: The test subject is in there and he's got a 231 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,640 Speaker 1: whale of a tail because he says he saw something, 232 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: and we'll tell you what he saw. Right after a 233 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor. He says, I went to another dimension. 234 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:49,920 Speaker 1: He's freaked out for seven minutes. According to this anonymous 235 00:15:49,960 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: test subject, he was in a world that appeared just 236 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: like Earth from Universe A. He claimed it was except 237 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:02,880 Speaker 1: for what important difference. It was void as far as 238 00:16:02,880 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 1: he could tell of human life, any signs of humanity. 239 00:16:07,640 --> 00:16:10,960 Speaker 1: And the scientists were gased. This was a huge breakthrough, 240 00:16:11,080 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: so they started experimenting, or they continued experimenting in secret, 241 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: seeing what they could move through this gateway that they 242 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: had created. Slashed found and according to this story, we're 243 00:16:24,880 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: just giving the high level parts here. But according to 244 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: the story, they through no real fault of their own, 245 00:16:32,200 --> 00:16:35,480 Speaker 1: ran into trouble with Uncle Sam. There was a nuclear 246 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,680 Speaker 1: instant nearby, and so they all seeing I've the government 247 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: was applying closer scrutiny to this area, and they started 248 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: to notice there were strange things going on in this 249 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 1: little ghost town Ang's Hat. So the heat was catching 250 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: up with them. They could feel it around the corner. 251 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 1: They said, we can't give up our research. It's too important. 252 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: But we can't stay here. We've got to relocate. We've 253 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:06,120 Speaker 1: got to find somewhere else to go. And eventually, perhaps 254 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:10,360 Speaker 1: out of desperation, they turned to the Earth in Universe 255 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 1: B and peace by peace, the story goes, they slowly 256 00:17:15,480 --> 00:17:18,040 Speaker 1: moved the entirety, not just of their lab, but of 257 00:17:18,080 --> 00:17:25,280 Speaker 1: the Ashram into this alternate Earth. Eventually they were gone entirely, 258 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:31,840 Speaker 1: leaving uh nothing but that humble little hut slash Shed 259 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: the gateway between worlds. And if you catch them, if 260 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,800 Speaker 1: you happen to be in the area at the right time, 261 00:17:40,240 --> 00:17:43,399 Speaker 1: maybe when the stars are right for the Lovecraft fans 262 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:47,720 Speaker 1: out there, you might see them traveling back to good 263 00:17:47,760 --> 00:17:51,159 Speaker 1: old Universe A. They only come when they need to 264 00:17:51,200 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: restock supplies, lab equipment, case and dias shoe feet, you know, 265 00:17:57,480 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 1: dipping sauces. Dipping sauces. Yeah, stiffeat. I love that universe 266 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:07,399 Speaker 1: b does not have hobb and arrow avocado ranch. Guys, 267 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: someone's gonna make the trip. Yeah, it does feel weird 268 00:18:13,640 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: that you would move your scientific operation to a place 269 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,680 Speaker 1: that doesn't have resources at all. I mean it would, 270 00:18:19,680 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 1: it would have endless resources if you could build the 271 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: things to collect those resources. You're right, you can't build. 272 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:30,879 Speaker 1: You can't build much computer equipment in the universe with 273 00:18:30,960 --> 00:18:35,080 Speaker 1: no humans, right, Yeah, No, that's absolutely true. And that's 274 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: one of the reasons why time travel questions so often 275 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,640 Speaker 1: have bad answers. You know, like if you travel if 276 00:18:43,680 --> 00:18:48,840 Speaker 1: you traveled back in time too a d even when 277 00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,439 Speaker 1: there was a ton of technology around you, you be 278 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:57,119 Speaker 1: surprised how useless you would be in a lot of 279 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: respects most people, you know what I mean. Um, but 280 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: you would still have some superpowers, you'd be immune to 281 00:19:03,359 --> 00:19:06,120 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff. It's just it's something to think about, 282 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: and you make a really good point because it would 283 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: be starting from scratch. This story is bonkers, it's exciting, 284 00:19:13,840 --> 00:19:18,480 Speaker 1: it's cinematic. I'd love to see it depicted on stage 285 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 1: on screen, Um, any size screen, really and this is 286 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,600 Speaker 1: a conspiracy theory. It has all the ingredients of a 287 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 1: kick ass camp fire tail. It reads like an episode 288 00:19:30,880 --> 00:19:33,679 Speaker 1: of Fringe or Black Mirror or the Twilight Zone. But 289 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,959 Speaker 1: is it real? Some people would respond by saying, what 290 00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 1: do you mean by real? Here's where it gets crazy. 291 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, first off, all right, just universe a brass 292 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: tacks here. This is absolutely not real. This is so 293 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:57,280 Speaker 1: absolutely not real that we It's been proven, proven, proven 294 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:01,199 Speaker 1: multiple times. It's not real. It is uh is the 295 00:20:01,240 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: creation of several people. I would say it's it's present 296 00:20:06,320 --> 00:20:10,679 Speaker 1: form is mainly the creation of a writer, Uh, a 297 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: punk guy who loves computers, trans media artist named Joseph Matheny. 298 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: He he loved culture, jamming, who's growing up. He loved 299 00:20:21,800 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 1: the kind of contrarian intellectualism of things like the Church 300 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:31,280 Speaker 1: of SubGenius, which we're fans of. Yeah, and I guess 301 00:20:31,320 --> 00:20:33,560 Speaker 1: we can we do a quick description of Church of 302 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:37,680 Speaker 1: SubGenius just for any uninitiated. Yeah, it's sort of like 303 00:20:37,720 --> 00:20:41,159 Speaker 1: a joke religion, a joke cult, but also to be 304 00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,879 Speaker 1: taken pretty seriously depending on who you are. Um, It's 305 00:20:45,240 --> 00:20:49,159 Speaker 1: deity or overlord is j R. Bob Dobbs, who is 306 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,680 Speaker 1: basically like a piece of clip art from the fifties 307 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 1: that's like a kind of a you know what, like 308 00:20:55,600 --> 00:20:57,880 Speaker 1: a how a husband kind of with a pipe, sort 309 00:20:57,880 --> 00:21:00,399 Speaker 1: of like a every man kind of like you know, 310 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 1: work a day Joe in the fifties, you know, the 311 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: American Dream kind of scenario. And they believed in some occurrence, 312 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:13,320 Speaker 1: some sort of apocalyptic slash rapture event called X Day 313 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: when the some manner of aliens or some manner of 314 00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:21,160 Speaker 1: extraterrestrial beings are gonna swoop down and you know, bring 315 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,280 Speaker 1: all the sub genius up to where wherever with them, 316 00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,200 Speaker 1: and they celebrated every year. But the joke is that 317 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: Bob dobbs um got the date wrong, you know, one 318 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: of those things, and then then he keeps promising that 319 00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: will happen in a different year, and then that keeps 320 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 1: getting extended. But it's all very tongue in cheek. And 321 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:39,440 Speaker 1: then they believe in a concept of life called slack, 322 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: which is how they live their lives. Uh, sort of 323 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,920 Speaker 1: a do what thou wilt kind of Church of Satan vibe, 324 00:21:45,960 --> 00:21:49,560 Speaker 1: but a little more wacky and nudist and weed smoking 325 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: and you know, Devo listening. That's a lot of kind 326 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 1: of weird and hipster, hippie burning man type folks. I 327 00:21:56,880 --> 00:21:59,679 Speaker 1: hope I did an okay job there. Yeah, I agree. 328 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 1: Uh that and he also Mathany that is was also 329 00:22:03,520 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 1: into the philosophy of Discordianism. Uh. These these are both 330 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 1: subgenious and Discordianism both mixed true and fictional events or 331 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:24,119 Speaker 1: beliefs to create alternative histories and aggressive reframings of current reality. 332 00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:29,600 Speaker 1: I guess perspective shifting, paradigm shifting culture jamming. Uh. We 333 00:22:29,600 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 1: were talking about Discordianism earlier off air in a way 334 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:38,200 Speaker 1: because we were talking about the Illuminatus trilogy. If you're 335 00:22:38,200 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 1: a fan of that book, then you know that a 336 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:45,080 Speaker 1: great deal of it is concerned with Discordianism. They're practitioners 337 00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:49,239 Speaker 1: of discordian magic, chaos magic, whatever you want to call it. 338 00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:54,359 Speaker 1: Joseph Mathani loved this stuff. He loved this stuff. He 339 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 1: hung out with intellectual sets of people who had the 340 00:22:57,760 --> 00:23:02,919 Speaker 1: same somewhat esoteric interest any of them from uh different 341 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: eras of time. There were some older people, there was 342 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,919 Speaker 1: some younger people. They had any number of other unrelated 343 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,960 Speaker 1: interests there or scientists will meet one in a second. 344 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 1: There were writers, there were artists, you name it. There's 345 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,920 Speaker 1: just people who like to have really interesting thought experiments. 346 00:23:20,560 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: If you're listening to this show, and if you've listened 347 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 1: to us for a while, then it's safe to say 348 00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 1: they're the kind of people you would probably like to 349 00:23:27,760 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: hang out with. They're fun to talk to. Their minds 350 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: go weird places, and Ang's Hat became an example of this. 351 00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:42,679 Speaker 1: The first iteration of this story was something It was 352 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:47,160 Speaker 1: not even really a short story. It's presented as a brochure, 353 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 1: a nonfiction work called the Institute of Chaos Studies. And 354 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:57,920 Speaker 1: you would have first seen it in a magazine called 355 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:02,400 Speaker 1: Edge Detector in nineteen eight, which I just realized now 356 00:24:02,720 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 1: is supposed to be an edgy name. I didn't realize 357 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 1: it was a pun. It's like right on the Edge Detector, 358 00:24:09,200 --> 00:24:12,480 Speaker 1: like an edge lord. He detects the edge and then 359 00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:15,040 Speaker 1: he kind of edges up against the edge, but he 360 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,800 Speaker 1: never really quite exceeds it. I can see how that 361 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:21,639 Speaker 1: title pulled people in, right, the concept of pushing everything 362 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:24,919 Speaker 1: out until you reach the edge, find where that edge is, 363 00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:29,199 Speaker 1: just find it so we know. Yeah, And originally when 364 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,159 Speaker 1: this is published in this magazine, it is attributed to 365 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 1: a guy named Peter Lamborne Wilson, who also goes by 366 00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:42,679 Speaker 1: the pseudonym Hakim bay Uh. He is his own episode, 367 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: is far from a perfect person. He's actually intensely problematic 368 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,720 Speaker 1: in some ways. But when he talks about this originally, 369 00:24:51,840 --> 00:24:56,120 Speaker 1: he says, look, I didn't write this. I found this. 370 00:24:57,119 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: I'm just passing it along, and that it's an important 371 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: part to building a mythos. You know, the original author 372 00:25:05,880 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 1: should be anonymous, or they should be driven mad, or 373 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: they should be dead. You know that they need to 374 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,880 Speaker 1: somehow be distant, right, And that's why that's why so 375 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: many works of profits throughout time have been you know, 376 00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,920 Speaker 1: when when they're in the written word, you'll usually see 377 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,000 Speaker 1: the prophet saying, I'm not making this up. I have 378 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:35,000 Speaker 1: received this from somewhere else. You establish a chain of 379 00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: metaphysical custody. It's quite clever and it works very well. 380 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 1: So later, by the way, we turn out that Wilson 381 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:45,719 Speaker 1: would say that he wrote the original story. All right, 382 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,360 Speaker 1: So where does Joseph Mathan he come in? Well, as 383 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 1: we said, he liked to hang out with a crowd 384 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 1: interested in esoteric things. He knows Peter Lamborn and Wilson 385 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: and they are friends with a guy named Nick Herbert 386 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 1: Nick has the same interests. He's also a smashing conversationalist. 387 00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: They have a great time together. But Nick Nick is 388 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: also a scientist, a credible scientist, uh, and he is 389 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:17,679 Speaker 1: known in his scientific field. He is the one who says, 390 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: let's add some you know what I mean, Let's let's 391 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:24,280 Speaker 1: add some modern science to the myth. Let's let's make 392 00:26:24,320 --> 00:26:28,560 Speaker 1: this science fiction and fantasy. And then you know, Peter 393 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:32,880 Speaker 1: and Joseph, we can only assume are like, heck, yeah, man, 394 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:39,360 Speaker 1: hold my discordian beer. Let's get cracking in. They started 395 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:45,120 Speaker 1: reproducing this edge detector article, and they literally zero Ston. 396 00:26:45,200 --> 00:26:49,360 Speaker 1: They just made physical copies, and they started pamphlet bombing 397 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:53,640 Speaker 1: places where they thought interested folks would find it. So, 398 00:26:54,240 --> 00:26:56,960 Speaker 1: you know, imagine you're walking into your local coffee shop 399 00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,000 Speaker 1: and maybe it's just maybe it's just on the physical 400 00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:04,240 Speaker 1: bulletin board, the predecessor the Internet bullets board. And so 401 00:27:04,359 --> 00:27:09,480 Speaker 1: you see like lost Dog, you know, fencing classes, learn 402 00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:13,920 Speaker 1: judo or whatever, and then a concert is coming up 403 00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: devo why not? And and then there's a there's a 404 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,720 Speaker 1: catalog or there's a little pamphlet that says Institute for 405 00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: Chaos Studies. What are they selling? They don't look like 406 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:28,160 Speaker 1: they're selling anything. So you read it or you find 407 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,480 Speaker 1: it at a concert venue, anywhere they thought a curious 408 00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 1: person might run into this. Matthanie loved the idea of 409 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: popularizing this, of propagating it, and he thought of it. 410 00:27:39,640 --> 00:27:43,440 Speaker 1: As he described this an interview with Gizmoto, he said, 411 00:27:44,240 --> 00:27:46,520 Speaker 1: it was you get the sense, he thought, was all 412 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 1: in good fun. Right, we're cultured and we're doing pranks. 413 00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: Doesn't love a good print? Think about it at this point. 414 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:58,240 Speaker 1: There's no tie to revenue, personal revenue for anybody who's 415 00:27:58,280 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 1: distributing this thing. You're not making a way. They're losing 416 00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,800 Speaker 1: money by printing this thing and taking a place as 417 00:28:03,840 --> 00:28:08,000 Speaker 1: they're losing their time. Like it's it the goal here 418 00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:10,560 Speaker 1: you can tell and it must be it's not making money. 419 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: It is or you know, trying to profit in some way. 420 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: It's that thing that you just said, Ben, propagating this 421 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:25,160 Speaker 1: concept for fun zies, slash o chaos. It's not about 422 00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:30,639 Speaker 1: the money. It's about sending a message, right, so so yeah, 423 00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:35,280 Speaker 1: they he called it a quote mind expanding in joke 424 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: for goth kids, stoner gamers, and sci fi loving computer 425 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,480 Speaker 1: nerds who like talking about physics and telling spooky stories. 426 00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: I feel attacked. I'm kidding a little bit. But they 427 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:57,480 Speaker 1: they started also expanding this through the postal system. You know. UM. 428 00:28:57,520 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 1: It reminds me a little bit of the Crying of 429 00:28:59,160 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: a Lot forty line by Pension. Methany and Herbert and 430 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,840 Speaker 1: Wilson were mailing this thing to people and you could 431 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: find you can find it mentioned in other catalogs or 432 00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:16,960 Speaker 1: distro list like if you were reading, for instance, um 433 00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: publications from UFO interest groups. In the back of those 434 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,160 Speaker 1: you would see like other stuff you could request through 435 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,840 Speaker 1: the mail if you were interested, and you would see 436 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:31,560 Speaker 1: something like this Institute for Chaos Studies. And then they 437 00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 1: started producing their own thing, the Inconnabula catalog. Mathanie says, 438 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,240 Speaker 1: he and Nick, the scientists started really going really going 439 00:29:42,520 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: nuts with us. They were going hard on the paint 440 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: with the idea at this point. So he took this 441 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:51,720 Speaker 1: one piece of fiction and he grew it into this 442 00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: entire alternate world online. It expanded in a crowdsourced way 443 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:04,000 Speaker 1: similar to SCP and our friend of the show, Matt Riddle, 444 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: if you're listening, thank you again. For introducing me to 445 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: that time vampire. I enjoyed it, but I have lost 446 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: I've lost so much time in there. So you go 447 00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: to that rabbit hole if you've got a several hours. 448 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: But anyway, so this is kind of like how the 449 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: Lovecraft methos expands, you know what I mean? At this 450 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: point in time, the majority of stories and the Lovecraft methos, 451 00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:35,200 Speaker 1: if you count everybody after old HP Sauce himself, there 452 00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 1: are more authors in the Lovecraft methos who are not 453 00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:44,960 Speaker 1: Lovecraft than the guy himself. That's that's amazing crowdsourcing to 454 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,600 Speaker 1: the what's the quality of the stories? They vary, but 455 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:51,400 Speaker 1: there are some real amazing ones, um and anyway, it's it's. 456 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,600 Speaker 1: A more recent example would be House of Leaves, the 457 00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:59,680 Speaker 1: collaborative novel that was originally written online, and itself is 458 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: also a very weird read. Isn't that the one with 459 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: like the swirly text and like the weird marginal things 460 00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:10,560 Speaker 1: and easter eggs abound that kind of do yeah, exactly 461 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: by primarily by Dan mark Z Daniel les Luski. I think, uh, anyway, 462 00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:21,720 Speaker 1: that's a great read too, But no, at this point 463 00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,160 Speaker 1: it starts becoming a thing where you're not quite sure 464 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:31,120 Speaker 1: who is writing this, who is actually creating this, You're 465 00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 1: not quite sure where the first story comes from, and 466 00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:41,400 Speaker 1: you're starting to wonder who added what has this been edited? 467 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:45,360 Speaker 1: Some of this appears to be true. You say there 468 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: is a place called longs Hat. What else is true? Right? 469 00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,800 Speaker 1: And not everyone swallowed the tail hook line and sinker, 470 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:57,400 Speaker 1: of course. But the thing is a lot of people 471 00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 1: read about this, or some literate are associated with it, 472 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: or they saw a comment about it, and they started thinking, 473 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: what if, you know, the government of the United States 474 00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:16,200 Speaker 1: and Princeton had gotten up to some weird stuff before. Well, yeah, 475 00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: you know, we talked about nuclear contamination or some kind 476 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,920 Speaker 1: of nuclear accident that occurred near where Ang's Hat was located. 477 00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 1: As that's that was part of the lore, right, and 478 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,920 Speaker 1: it was revealed later on. There's a New York Times 479 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:33,240 Speaker 1: article you can read about this that there was nuclear 480 00:32:33,280 --> 00:32:36,400 Speaker 1: material or radioactive material that was released and kind of 481 00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: covered up and made hush hush for quite a while. 482 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: That seemed to line up with the timeline here when 483 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: they were doing stuff in the sixties. You can search 484 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:50,120 Speaker 1: for old missile site at McGuire is still tainted Keene 485 00:32:50,160 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: says on The New York Times, it's a story from 486 00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:57,280 Speaker 1: nine five, and it's just weird how stuff like that 487 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,320 Speaker 1: seems to match up with the tape. Right, It's like 488 00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,520 Speaker 1: finding the actual real world things that match up with 489 00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,200 Speaker 1: the air or g elements and there, you know, around 490 00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: that time. It's very well, it's weird to think, but 491 00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: Project Stargate is actually happening within the CIA, right, I mean, 492 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:21,959 Speaker 1: their actual government experiments with remote viewing and stuff happening 493 00:33:21,960 --> 00:33:24,440 Speaker 1: around this time. And some of a lot of that 494 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: stuff is rumor, but it's not. Uh, it's not well 495 00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 1: known by people in the United States, but it's stuff 496 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,520 Speaker 1: that's written written about in these kind of magazines and 497 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,120 Speaker 1: pamphlets that are going around. So you can totally see 498 00:33:36,120 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: how this tale seems to match up with real world stuff, 499 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 1: including the government's shenanigans. Absolutely. Oh, and I want to 500 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: make a quick clarification here. I believe the brochure that 501 00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: was that ended up circulating, the one that became really popular, 502 00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 1: was eventually called Ang's Hat, the beginning the Inconnabula papers, 503 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,880 Speaker 1: Angs Hat and other gate Ways to New Dimensions. You 504 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: can find it on archive dot org. It's a first 505 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:10,279 Speaker 1: person investigation is how how the tail begins. But you 506 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:14,600 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right because along with those true things that 507 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: are happening that seemed to fit the universe a timeline, 508 00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:23,680 Speaker 1: there are also lots of references to books that don't exist, right, 509 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: books that if you searched for them, you you wouldn't 510 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,000 Speaker 1: be able to find them, at least pre Amazon, because 511 00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 1: there's a thing that happens on Amazon now where someone 512 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:38,800 Speaker 1: will create something that purports to be one of those 513 00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,400 Speaker 1: books from fiction that doesn't exist, and you can you 514 00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,360 Speaker 1: can buy them if you want, right, but they're usually 515 00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 1: just terrible cut and paste jobs. I haven't read every 516 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 1: one of them, but you have to watch out. So anyway, 517 00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,759 Speaker 1: at this point you can say that a book exists, 518 00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: and short of going to the Library of Congress, it 519 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:01,560 Speaker 1: will be kind of difficult for most people to prove 520 00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 1: that it doesn't exist. They don't have the access to information. 521 00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:12,560 Speaker 1: There's no Wikipedia, bibliography or no easily searchable online database. 522 00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: This is, in short, beat me here, Paul. It's a 523 00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 1: mind of an extravagant and extreme degree. It's similar to 524 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:28,759 Speaker 1: the initial reaction to the Blair Witch Project. And when 525 00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,839 Speaker 1: this came out, we were all film goers. I think 526 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: it's safe to say, guys, we all knew or knew 527 00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 1: of some people who initially thought the Blair Witch Project 528 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,520 Speaker 1: was a real deal documentary. Do you guys remember that. 529 00:35:43,400 --> 00:35:45,360 Speaker 1: I think I went in thinking that I saw in 530 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:47,640 Speaker 1: the theater and it was packed. That was such a 531 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: hot movie. I mean, yeah, you're ready kicked off this 532 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:53,840 Speaker 1: like dream genre for Hollywood. As the movies caused Pennies 533 00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:55,840 Speaker 1: to make, and if you market them right, they do 534 00:35:55,920 --> 00:35:58,799 Speaker 1: incredibly well. Clover Fields and that one wasn't pennies because 535 00:35:58,800 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: it had like big v fects budget, But that was 536 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: another one that had some pretty cool viral marketing behind. 537 00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:04,480 Speaker 1: I think we've talked about a few times with all 538 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,799 Speaker 1: the like adjacent like slurpeas and stuff and like all 539 00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:10,520 Speaker 1: the Easter eggs and the thing falling out of this guy. 540 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: I really quite like that movie a lot. Um But 541 00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,400 Speaker 1: the point here Blair Witch, the like you said, the marketing, 542 00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,359 Speaker 1: I told you it was real. It was found footage, right, 543 00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,800 Speaker 1: This is actually found footage from something that went wrong. 544 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,080 Speaker 1: Come in and watch what went wrong. You get to 545 00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: watch it with your own eyes like that. I mean, 546 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:35,680 Speaker 1: it was brilliant. Uh, it kind of stinks because weirdly enough, 547 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: blair Witch is probably one of the small handful of 548 00:36:39,680 --> 00:36:45,080 Speaker 1: things that started making us question reality, including the matrix. Uh, 549 00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 1: you know, like things that made in popular culture it 550 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:51,640 Speaker 1: was cool to question your own reality. Um, and we're 551 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 1: seeing you know, going back to the eighties now, late eighties, 552 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:59,600 Speaker 1: early nineties, when questioning your reality and like um, multidimensions, 553 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:01,799 Speaker 1: multi verse, all of that stuff. It's just it was 554 00:37:01,800 --> 00:37:04,000 Speaker 1: on this track that was building and building and building 555 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,400 Speaker 1: and building. I love that you put blair Witch in 556 00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 1: there as an example, Ben, because I feel like that's 557 00:37:08,200 --> 00:37:11,440 Speaker 1: another one of these milestones that leads us down this 558 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 1: path of uncertainty. There is no spoon, but there is 559 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,080 Speaker 1: an ollngs Hat. It's in It's in New Jersey again, 560 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 1: but the well, there's an ogs Hat Road. I didn't 561 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 1: see ONGs Hat. I saw ONGs Hat Road. Longs Hat 562 00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:27,120 Speaker 1: Road has well longs Hat would have been visible in 563 00:37:27,280 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: maps around two thousand six, probably the last time you 564 00:37:30,120 --> 00:37:34,680 Speaker 1: see because now it's just ruined. But allings Hat Road. 565 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:42,120 Speaker 1: I think the name changed at some point. Okay, if 566 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: we can see I looked up on Google you can 567 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,960 Speaker 1: find ONGs Hat Road, So I guess that the name 568 00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:50,800 Speaker 1: of that one changed. That one's near south Southampton Township, 569 00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: kind of between Southampton and Pemberton Township. Uh. And the 570 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,160 Speaker 1: place where I said the nuclear you know, materials and leak, 571 00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 1: that's in Jackson Township. If you're looking in New Jersey, 572 00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:03,239 Speaker 1: just if you're looking at your map, yeah, or if 573 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:05,520 Speaker 1: you're in the area, you want to drive by Young's 574 00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:08,799 Speaker 1: Hat Road, which, as will come to find, people have 575 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:13,160 Speaker 1: done without a sense of satire, with their tongues firmly, 576 00:38:13,239 --> 00:38:16,960 Speaker 1: not in their cheeks. They have done this. So the 577 00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:20,759 Speaker 1: this is weird because people are believing this, they don't 578 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:26,840 Speaker 1: necessarily have all the tools to question it. And Mathony 579 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:31,800 Speaker 1: is having a fantastic time with this. He is building 580 00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:37,919 Speaker 1: out lore left and right. He assumes the personna of 581 00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:43,200 Speaker 1: this investigator, and this investigator is just a guy just 582 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:48,440 Speaker 1: in every man audience perspective, right, that is in that 583 00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:55,280 Speaker 1: is diving into the story of Ang's Hat, and he 584 00:38:55,280 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 1: he publishes new milestones and his investgation like chapters in 585 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 1: a book. And these new revelations always lead to more 586 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:12,840 Speaker 1: details twist in the story, different rabbit holes, different little 587 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 1: pieces of string to follow along from point A to 588 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 1: point Z. And this continues. People are people are enamored 589 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:26,799 Speaker 1: of this there they're in and they want to know 590 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:31,560 Speaker 1: more about interdimensional travel. Right there are people who are 591 00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: talking about how they're worried about this investigators safety, you 592 00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:37,480 Speaker 1: know what I mean. Maybe he's trying to find things 593 00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 1: that don't want to be found. And that's still not 594 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:46,080 Speaker 1: the end of the story, because we're going to get 595 00:39:46,160 --> 00:39:51,319 Speaker 1: to a strange and dangerous meta game twist. After a 596 00:39:51,320 --> 00:40:00,319 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, all right, we're back, and now 597 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,360 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about what happens when enough people start 598 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,400 Speaker 1: believing in your story that you know isn't real, but 599 00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,040 Speaker 1: you're having a whole lot of fun making it. The 600 00:40:10,200 --> 00:40:14,160 Speaker 1: weapons When enough people think, oh, yeah, I'm gonna go 601 00:40:14,239 --> 00:40:16,480 Speaker 1: to there, I'm gonna find that, I'm going to learn 602 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 1: these secrets. I'm going to get the truth out of 603 00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,799 Speaker 1: people who worked on this or know about this. Dontentent 604 00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 1: Ton tent on, dontent don Yes, yes, Q Hall of 605 00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:31,760 Speaker 1: the Mountain King. Things start to get out of hand. 606 00:40:32,560 --> 00:40:35,840 Speaker 1: The law is expanding in depth and reach. The scope 607 00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 1: is as Homer Simpson would say in beginning, and more 608 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,680 Speaker 1: and more people like you said, Matt, begin to actually 609 00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:47,480 Speaker 1: believe the story, they struggle and in several cases fail 610 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:53,400 Speaker 1: to separate fact from fiction. Eventually, this leads Mathani to 611 00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:58,400 Speaker 1: pull the plug. Now, look the whole time, in his defense, 612 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:01,400 Speaker 1: and this this is true, this is universe a true 613 00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:05,200 Speaker 1: the whole time in his defense. If you did some 614 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 1: digging into the story, you would recognize in jokes, you 615 00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:13,520 Speaker 1: would recognize little narrative loop de loops, things like that. 616 00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 1: This guy, what we're saying is this guy was having 617 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:22,120 Speaker 1: what was sometimes described as a collective legend trip. You know, 618 00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:25,040 Speaker 1: let's let's tell a story together, let's play a game 619 00:41:25,320 --> 00:41:32,200 Speaker 1: hashtag no saw and this idea from his perspective, I 620 00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:34,720 Speaker 1: just want to be clear, he wasn't doing anything sinister. 621 00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:37,160 Speaker 1: He wasn't out to make a ton of money, He 622 00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 1: wasn't trying to change people's behavior in a dangerous way. 623 00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:44,520 Speaker 1: He wasn't trying to start a call to none of 624 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:48,800 Speaker 1: those things that people do when they attempt to manipulate folks. 625 00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,719 Speaker 1: He wasn't even really trying to manipulate folks. And you 626 00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:54,640 Speaker 1: can see him in interviews over the course of this 627 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,239 Speaker 1: expansion where he's like, Yeah, this is fun. We're doing 628 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:02,840 Speaker 1: this because it's fun. I love discordionism. I did chaos magic, 629 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:05,160 Speaker 1: you know, or chaos theory, I think you would have said, 630 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:13,399 Speaker 1: And so people are refusing to believe him. Eventually, this does, 631 00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:15,799 Speaker 1: as we said, lead him to pull the plug, and 632 00:42:15,840 --> 00:42:18,840 Speaker 1: he goes in another interview and he says, look again, 633 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:23,120 Speaker 1: for anybody who somehow hasn't heard me say this before, 634 00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:28,120 Speaker 1: this is a game. The purpose is to have fun. 635 00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:32,640 Speaker 1: There is no universe. B that's basically what what he's 636 00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:36,400 Speaker 1: what he's telling people. And there's no real egg, no 637 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:41,319 Speaker 1: alternate earth. Just guys, learn about postmodernism. He's saying, that's 638 00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:44,680 Speaker 1: that's what we're doing. We're playing in surrealist game. And 639 00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:49,120 Speaker 1: but it was too late. It was too late. The 640 00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:54,760 Speaker 1: lid of Pandora's jar had been unscrewed. And folks said, 641 00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:58,480 Speaker 1: but well, from their perspective, it's also understandable if they 642 00:42:58,480 --> 00:43:01,640 Speaker 1: thought there was a conspiracy of what they believe this story. 643 00:43:01,960 --> 00:43:06,480 Speaker 1: They said, someone got to you, man, you're either a 644 00:43:06,560 --> 00:43:09,640 Speaker 1: patsy or you're the victim of a cover up. Tell 645 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:14,279 Speaker 1: us what's really going on. Blink three times, exactly, that's 646 00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:19,160 Speaker 1: exactly event. Somebody's making you say that. Somebody's making you 647 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:21,960 Speaker 1: say that, right, he was tapping. He was he was 648 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:26,480 Speaker 1: tapping on the table I heard during the interview. I 649 00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:29,359 Speaker 1: think it's Morse code, you know what I mean? Like 650 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,880 Speaker 1: the agents of order, the agents of order, right, because 651 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,880 Speaker 1: that's the like part of the whole backstory is that 652 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 1: there are those who want full order, that is the 653 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:43,239 Speaker 1: way to control the universe, that is the way things 654 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:46,799 Speaker 1: should be, and others want chaos, which is much much 655 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:51,319 Speaker 1: more freeing. Uh. And if the people want order get 656 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:54,640 Speaker 1: to you, then you have to say what they want 657 00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:57,720 Speaker 1: you to say. Uh, dude, this it's just so interesting 658 00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:59,879 Speaker 1: how that could function. Guys. I think this would work 659 00:43:59,880 --> 00:44:03,239 Speaker 1: with any cult where the founder of the cult comes 660 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:06,439 Speaker 1: forward towards the end of their life and says, none 661 00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:08,800 Speaker 1: of this is real. I think the cult would still 662 00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:12,839 Speaker 1: sustain itself in the belief that it is real and 663 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,160 Speaker 1: for some reason, the leader had to say that, or 664 00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:17,759 Speaker 1: chose to say that for some reason, but the core 665 00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:20,839 Speaker 1: values of that cult remain. I think. I think that's 666 00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:25,000 Speaker 1: just my theory. I believe that because it makes sense 667 00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:30,360 Speaker 1: from what we understand about human psychology and their cognitive capabilities. 668 00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:34,560 Speaker 1: People love a good sunk cost fallacy. Your brain is 669 00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:38,640 Speaker 1: wired to feel good if it feels like it's always 670 00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:42,960 Speaker 1: been right about stuff, and your brain is wired to 671 00:44:43,080 --> 00:44:47,360 Speaker 1: react with hostility to the idea of being wrong, even 672 00:44:47,400 --> 00:44:51,040 Speaker 1: when you intellectually know you are wrong, you know if 673 00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:54,640 Speaker 1: you have been and and the rules of this, the 674 00:44:54,719 --> 00:45:00,200 Speaker 1: constraints the parameters are so arbitrary, like, uh, it's as 675 00:45:00,239 --> 00:45:04,480 Speaker 1: simple as let's say, laws of ethics for human experimentation 676 00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:06,719 Speaker 1: don't apply. You do whatever you want. You know. What 677 00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,879 Speaker 1: I mean is the wild West again. You let's say 678 00:45:09,880 --> 00:45:14,640 Speaker 1: you take some kids and you raise one of them 679 00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:18,880 Speaker 1: the experiment group. You raise one group just to just 680 00:45:19,000 --> 00:45:22,600 Speaker 1: to know, for various reasons, that blue is the best color. 681 00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:26,440 Speaker 1: There's a hierarchy of colors. We haven't we're not explaining 682 00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:28,520 Speaker 1: any of the other ones. Were just there's a very 683 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:32,840 Speaker 1: particular shade of blue that is the best color. Everything 684 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:35,520 Speaker 1: in your young life is associated with that. And then 685 00:45:35,520 --> 00:45:37,640 Speaker 1: we just let you out in the wild where you 686 00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:42,320 Speaker 1: learn that other people have other colors they like and 687 00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:45,400 Speaker 1: and you know, and then you find that the rest 688 00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,160 Speaker 1: of the world, the rest of the human population, says well, yeah, 689 00:45:49,200 --> 00:45:52,359 Speaker 1: you know, some people have favorite colors, some people don't 690 00:45:52,400 --> 00:45:55,040 Speaker 1: really care, some people are color blind. It doesn't matter, 691 00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,800 Speaker 1: like blue is no more important color than the other colors. 692 00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:04,279 Speaker 1: This would feel you feel blasphemous, even if you intellectually 693 00:46:04,320 --> 00:46:08,880 Speaker 1: recognize it. I positive that those victims of that incredibly 694 00:46:08,960 --> 00:46:11,919 Speaker 1: unethical experiment would still, in some part of their mind 695 00:46:12,000 --> 00:46:14,840 Speaker 1: be like, these people don't know what they're talking about. 696 00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:22,520 Speaker 1: Blue is best, Uh the crew, But like I I 697 00:46:22,560 --> 00:46:25,000 Speaker 1: know that's not a perfect example, but it's just to 698 00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:28,600 Speaker 1: show how arbitrary this is. And this is a real problem. 699 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:33,960 Speaker 1: It happens in the realms of politics and policy. It happens, 700 00:46:34,600 --> 00:46:38,640 Speaker 1: you know, it's similar to a sun cost fallacy. It 701 00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:44,040 Speaker 1: happens sometimes in belief systems, like you could make. You 702 00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,960 Speaker 1: could make the argument. A lot of ex scientologists make 703 00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:52,520 Speaker 1: the argument that people stay in that organization because they'll 704 00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:55,839 Speaker 1: get blackmail on you, but also because they don't learn 705 00:46:55,880 --> 00:46:59,040 Speaker 1: about stuff all at once. You're paying every step of 706 00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,960 Speaker 1: the way. With Tom, I'm with yeah, with the bridge, 707 00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:08,120 Speaker 1: you're paving the bridge brick by brick with stuff that 708 00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,239 Speaker 1: you can't get back. So at the end, everybody wants 709 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,440 Speaker 1: to think of themselves as a smart, rational actor, and 710 00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:18,560 Speaker 1: usually that's very true. So your brain gets in this paradox. Uh, 711 00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:23,440 Speaker 1: state where it says, wait, I'm smart, I'm rational. I 712 00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:26,399 Speaker 1: must have done this for a reason. Also, by the way, 713 00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:28,399 Speaker 1: well we're throwing out hacks. That's the reason that Ben 714 00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:31,240 Speaker 1: Franklin effect works because they're the one with the key 715 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:36,160 Speaker 1: you get struck by lightning. It's the one where if 716 00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:39,360 Speaker 1: you if you want someone to have a more favorable 717 00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,759 Speaker 1: opinion of you, you ask them to do you a 718 00:47:42,920 --> 00:47:46,399 Speaker 1: small favor. Make sure it's small and easy to do. 719 00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:50,120 Speaker 1: The scope of the favor should be something very easy 720 00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:54,600 Speaker 1: to say yes to, because for most human beings, what 721 00:47:54,680 --> 00:48:00,879 Speaker 1: will happen is they will retro actively rationalize why they 722 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:04,040 Speaker 1: helped you. They'll rationalize the reason and they'll say, I 723 00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:06,879 Speaker 1: helped because I am a good person, but I also 724 00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:09,120 Speaker 1: have good taste, so you must be kind of a 725 00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:13,080 Speaker 1: good person too, because I don't help bad people. It's 726 00:48:13,120 --> 00:48:16,839 Speaker 1: not And don't ask for anything crazy like don't say 727 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:18,759 Speaker 1: you listen to stuff they don't want you to know. 728 00:48:18,880 --> 00:48:21,919 Speaker 1: And now you're gonna go ask a stranger for their 729 00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:25,839 Speaker 1: car or their children or something. Asked to borrow a pet, 730 00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:28,520 Speaker 1: you know what I mean? Stuff like that, or like 731 00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:31,800 Speaker 1: if you must like a large scale thing would be 732 00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,040 Speaker 1: like a ride to her from the airport. That kind 733 00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:36,239 Speaker 1: of thing. That's a big ask man. That is a 734 00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,160 Speaker 1: big as It depends on where you live. If you 735 00:48:39,200 --> 00:48:41,680 Speaker 1: live in New York, that's like a huge favor. I 736 00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:43,839 Speaker 1: think a ride to the airport is less of an 737 00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:46,719 Speaker 1: ask than getting picked up from the airport, because there's 738 00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:49,240 Speaker 1: a lot of uncertainty and getting picked up from the airport, 739 00:48:49,280 --> 00:48:51,120 Speaker 1: you know, you gotta wait in the cell phone lot 740 00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:54,319 Speaker 1: or just circle indefinitely. Who knows how long it takes 741 00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:56,799 Speaker 1: to be playing these days. It all just depends on 742 00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:00,560 Speaker 1: what time it is, Also true, anybody really know what 743 00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,840 Speaker 1: time it is? I don't know. That's an oldest. I 744 00:49:03,880 --> 00:49:05,359 Speaker 1: can tell you what time it is for today. It's 745 00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:08,480 Speaker 1: I think it's about time to wrap this episode. Were close? Yeah, 746 00:49:08,640 --> 00:49:13,359 Speaker 1: So this goes into I wanted to mention something else here. 747 00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:16,920 Speaker 1: So not only do people refuse to believe him, but 748 00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,840 Speaker 1: they begin harassing them. Not a lot of not everybody, 749 00:49:20,840 --> 00:49:24,560 Speaker 1: but some people begin harassing him phone calls, letters, doxing. 750 00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:28,759 Speaker 1: Folks are showing up to his house saying, I know what, 751 00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:31,720 Speaker 1: I know what really happened about the cover up? Teach 752 00:49:31,840 --> 00:49:36,319 Speaker 1: me the secrets of interdimensional travel. There's another analog to 753 00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:39,000 Speaker 1: this a predecessor in the world of fiction. It's a 754 00:49:39,000 --> 00:49:44,759 Speaker 1: book called Foco's Pendulum and Faco's Pendulum spoiler alert here 755 00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:51,080 Speaker 1: be spoilers three to one spoils. So he the author 756 00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:56,360 Speaker 1: of Foco's Pendulum, Berto Echo, tells a story about these 757 00:49:56,680 --> 00:50:00,879 Speaker 1: very high minded literary nerds who be in making their 758 00:50:00,920 --> 00:50:04,399 Speaker 1: own conspiracy, and they know they're making it up. It's 759 00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:07,520 Speaker 1: it's a thought experiment for them. But things get out 760 00:50:07,520 --> 00:50:12,719 Speaker 1: of hand and folks start accepting this and behaving as 761 00:50:12,760 --> 00:50:16,359 Speaker 1: though the conspiracy is real. And then if people are 762 00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:21,520 Speaker 1: behaving as though a belief is real and it is factual, 763 00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:25,799 Speaker 1: then it gets a little closer to the truth, doesn't it. 764 00:50:26,200 --> 00:50:31,239 Speaker 1: Because their actions, however motivated, are still indeed real actions, 765 00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:34,920 Speaker 1: right They weren't imagining themselves showing up at this this 766 00:50:35,000 --> 00:50:39,040 Speaker 1: poor guy's house anyway. Well, I was just gonna send 767 00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:41,839 Speaker 1: people over to gizmoto right now. You can read an 768 00:50:41,880 --> 00:50:45,680 Speaker 1: article titled OG's Hat colin the early Internet conspiracy game 769 00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:49,560 Speaker 1: that Got Too Real. It's written by Jed album O E. 770 00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:52,720 Speaker 1: L B A U M. And in this you actually 771 00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:56,319 Speaker 1: see an interview with this person who created ogs Hat 772 00:50:56,760 --> 00:50:58,719 Speaker 1: or it was part of the he was the person 773 00:50:58,719 --> 00:51:03,759 Speaker 1: who popularized it. It's his last exactly, It's allegedly his 774 00:51:03,880 --> 00:51:06,040 Speaker 1: last interview because he's so tired of talking about the 775 00:51:06,080 --> 00:51:08,200 Speaker 1: dang thing and he doesn't want anybody showing up at 776 00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:11,040 Speaker 1: his house anymore. At the time, he said it was 777 00:51:11,080 --> 00:51:13,439 Speaker 1: his last interview. That's why you put it. Yeah, yeah, 778 00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:17,360 Speaker 1: and that's that's the article. Um we're mentioning at the tops, 779 00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:20,040 Speaker 1: So thank you for for saying that. That's probably the 780 00:51:20,080 --> 00:51:24,760 Speaker 1: best one stop shop to look at analysis of AG's 781 00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:28,200 Speaker 1: hat outside of the game. But again, you can read, 782 00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:32,719 Speaker 1: you can read the majority of this stuff, like the 783 00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:36,960 Speaker 1: in universe stuff here, and you are not going to 784 00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:39,720 Speaker 1: be alone in reading it because a lot of folks 785 00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:43,360 Speaker 1: who are students of gaming have read this, and they've 786 00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:47,000 Speaker 1: read it because Matthewy was able to, for the most part, 787 00:51:47,080 --> 00:51:50,120 Speaker 1: extricate himself from all this harassment. But if you go 788 00:51:50,200 --> 00:51:53,120 Speaker 1: to the right forms today, you'll see people who still 789 00:51:53,160 --> 00:51:57,759 Speaker 1: believe that it's true, and a lot of folks admire this, 790 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,560 Speaker 1: and rightly so, because it's a prototype. It's a predecessor 791 00:52:01,760 --> 00:52:05,960 Speaker 1: of alternate reality games a r G right, which is 792 00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:09,239 Speaker 1: everything from LARPing to stuff that skirts the line in 793 00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:13,960 Speaker 1: fact and fiction for folks, just like John Carpenters in 794 00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:18,160 Speaker 1: the Mouth of Madness Orong's Hat. So I just rewatched 795 00:52:18,200 --> 00:52:21,960 Speaker 1: in the Mouth of Madness. Uh so too. I think 796 00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:24,200 Speaker 1: it holds up. It's a little goofy, but it's fun. 797 00:52:24,800 --> 00:52:28,720 Speaker 1: Oh it's so fun. Really dig it. Yeah, I feel like, maybe, 798 00:52:29,320 --> 00:52:32,360 Speaker 1: well the's more spoilers. Maybe at the end they shouldn't 799 00:52:32,400 --> 00:52:36,320 Speaker 1: have shown the monsters as much. That's that's where it 800 00:52:36,360 --> 00:52:40,360 Speaker 1: really did. It dropped out well, especially if you're watching 801 00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,799 Speaker 1: a more recent scan of it where it's a little 802 00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,520 Speaker 1: higher death and you start to see the seems a 803 00:52:46,560 --> 00:52:49,120 Speaker 1: little bit more on those rubber costumes back in the 804 00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:51,640 Speaker 1: day when it was pure film. There's that blur that 805 00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:53,120 Speaker 1: kind of like, you know, it makes it where that 806 00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:56,120 Speaker 1: stuff gets a little bit washed over. But yeah, some 807 00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:58,160 Speaker 1: of that stuff when you watch on TV and like 808 00:52:58,239 --> 00:53:02,640 Speaker 1: higher death and a little bit yeah, but still a 809 00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:07,160 Speaker 1: great story and ogs Hat is a great story as well. 810 00:53:07,239 --> 00:53:10,560 Speaker 1: It is us. It is a tale of fiction, is 811 00:53:10,600 --> 00:53:14,680 Speaker 1: also a tale of metafiction, and it's a story about 812 00:53:14,680 --> 00:53:17,959 Speaker 1: a game, but on the metal level, it's a story 813 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:21,920 Speaker 1: about a conspiracy to create a conspiracy that met with 814 00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:27,960 Speaker 1: massive success, and perhaps success that foreshadows danger in the future. 815 00:53:28,880 --> 00:53:30,759 Speaker 1: Like we're saying, you can read all about ogs Hat 816 00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:33,080 Speaker 1: today on your browser of choice. It is an in 817 00:53:33,200 --> 00:53:37,279 Speaker 1: depth look at how disinformation, even the wackiest kind, can 818 00:53:37,360 --> 00:53:41,440 Speaker 1: spread without being seriously questioned. And this is an important 819 00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:45,439 Speaker 1: parable for the modern day. It's only gonna become more 820 00:53:45,480 --> 00:53:50,440 Speaker 1: important as the years continue on. Angs had Miss a 821 00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:55,680 Speaker 1: fictional story, but it's also a real harbinger of the 822 00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:59,560 Speaker 1: so called post truth world. To be careful out there, folks. 823 00:54:00,040 --> 00:54:03,200 Speaker 1: This is not the only example of this. Obviously we're 824 00:54:03,320 --> 00:54:05,640 Speaker 1: fans of this kind of stuff, but it can be 825 00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:09,520 Speaker 1: like playing with live fire. If you are, you know, 826 00:54:09,600 --> 00:54:12,160 Speaker 1: you don't know who's going to read it online. You 827 00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:16,080 Speaker 1: don't know where their headspace is, you don't know what 828 00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:22,680 Speaker 1: opportunities or tools they have to question things. So yeah, 829 00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:25,120 Speaker 1: I would not be surprised if there are many if 830 00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:28,000 Speaker 1: there are many more examples of something like this to come. 831 00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:30,799 Speaker 1: We want to know what you think. What are some 832 00:54:30,920 --> 00:54:33,520 Speaker 1: of your examples. What was your experience with angs Hat? 833 00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:35,440 Speaker 1: Did you hear about it back in the day. Did 834 00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:39,799 Speaker 1: you know people who fully believed it was true? And 835 00:54:39,840 --> 00:54:42,960 Speaker 1: if so, what do they think now. Can't wait to 836 00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:44,799 Speaker 1: hear from you. Let us know. We try to be 837 00:54:44,840 --> 00:54:46,920 Speaker 1: easy to find online. It's right. You can find us 838 00:54:46,960 --> 00:54:49,359 Speaker 1: on Facebook or we have a Facebook group. Here's where 839 00:54:49,360 --> 00:54:52,120 Speaker 1: it gets crazy. You can find us on YouTube. Man, 840 00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:54,840 Speaker 1: you can find us on Twitter. Uh see where that 841 00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:58,440 Speaker 1: company's future's head. That's worth an episode, huh Man, That 842 00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:01,440 Speaker 1: Elon musks or knows how to troll and flex on 843 00:55:01,920 --> 00:55:07,839 Speaker 1: like every pump but it's yeah, exactly pumping dump for sure. 844 00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:10,400 Speaker 1: But for now, Twitter is as you expect it, and 845 00:55:10,520 --> 00:55:12,239 Speaker 1: you can find us there and those other places out 846 00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:14,680 Speaker 1: of the handle conspiracy Stuff on Instagram, we are at 847 00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:18,320 Speaker 1: Conspiracy Stuff Show. If you don't like social media instead, 848 00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:20,759 Speaker 1: why not give us a call. Our number is one 849 00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:24,960 Speaker 1: eight three three st d w y t K. When 850 00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:27,799 Speaker 1: you call in, give yourself a cool nickname. Let us 851 00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:29,799 Speaker 1: know if we can use that name, your voice, and 852 00:55:29,840 --> 00:55:32,800 Speaker 1: your message on the air. Then you'll have three minutes 853 00:55:32,840 --> 00:55:35,840 Speaker 1: say whatever you'd like. We can't wait to hear your stories, 854 00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:39,920 Speaker 1: ideas for new episodes, comments on the previous episodes. We 855 00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:42,919 Speaker 1: want everything. Call us. Let us know what you think 856 00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,640 Speaker 1: and how you feel. Uh, and how your cats doing? 857 00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:50,400 Speaker 1: How's your cat? You can't do all right? Why not 858 00:55:50,480 --> 00:55:57,640 Speaker 1: literally everywhere? That's true? Oh oh, I'm sorry. Yes, And 859 00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:01,160 Speaker 1: if you don't want to use your phone for whatever reason, 860 00:56:01,239 --> 00:56:03,880 Speaker 1: why not instead to send us a good old fashioned email. 861 00:56:04,120 --> 00:56:26,280 Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at i heeart radio dot com. Stuff 862 00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:28,200 Speaker 1: they don't want you to know is a production of 863 00:56:28,239 --> 00:56:31,200 Speaker 1: I heart Radio. For more podcasts from my heart Radio, 864 00:56:31,360 --> 00:56:34,200 Speaker 1: visit the i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 865 00:56:34,280 --> 00:56:35,560 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.