1 00:00:04,240 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: Get in touch with technology with text Stuff from how 2 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:14,120 Speaker 1: Stuff Works dot Com. Hey there, and welcome to Text Stuff. 3 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: I'm Jonathan Strickland and I'm joined once again by Ben Bolan, 4 00:00:18,720 --> 00:00:25,480 Speaker 1: host extraordinaire improv genius. Yeah, you're laying it on man. Well, 5 00:00:25,520 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 1: I'm just the short round here, Indiana Jones here, so 6 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:32,000 Speaker 1: thanks for having me on the show. I cheat little, 7 00:00:32,040 --> 00:00:34,720 Speaker 1: you cheat big. Uh. Yeah, we're going to uh, we're 8 00:00:34,720 --> 00:00:38,080 Speaker 1: going to continue our discussion about Area fifty one. If 9 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,559 Speaker 1: you have not heard the first part of this series, 10 00:00:41,600 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: I urge you to go and listen to the previous 11 00:00:44,120 --> 00:00:47,000 Speaker 1: episode where we set up what Area fifty one is. 12 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: How we got start. We talk all about the A 13 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:53,640 Speaker 1: twelve spy plane that was developed and tested, were largely 14 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: tested there, and now we're going to look at what 15 00:00:56,600 --> 00:01:01,240 Speaker 1: happened post A twelve at the room like facility a 16 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: k a. Area fifty one. To keep in mind that 17 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:05,400 Speaker 1: a lot of the stuff like eight the A twelve 18 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:07,400 Speaker 1: tests are going on at the same time as all 19 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: of this. You know, the way history works is we 20 00:01:09,800 --> 00:01:12,000 Speaker 1: like to think of it as there's a beginning, middle, 21 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 1: and end of each thing, and then the next thing 22 00:01:13,560 --> 00:01:15,600 Speaker 1: has a beginning middle, and end when really everything is 23 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: overlapping everything else. Yeah, it's that's that's exactly right, and 24 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: I'm glad you said that. I was thinking about that 25 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: earlier this week. If you've ever looked up historical characters 26 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:31,119 Speaker 1: who who lived in the same time period, it's it's fascinating. Yeah, 27 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:35,080 Speaker 1: and it can get really confusing really fast. Right, It's hard. 28 00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 1: It's hard to communicate how complex history is because we 29 00:01:40,200 --> 00:01:44,440 Speaker 1: work really well understanding narratives. Right, but when you when 30 00:01:44,440 --> 00:01:47,600 Speaker 1: you weave in so many narratives, that becomes like the 31 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: ultimate Quentin Tarantino film, you can get lost. Yeah, but 32 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: you are an explainer extraordinary, how about that? So, so, 33 00:01:56,680 --> 00:02:00,639 Speaker 1: I I think that you can easily guy us through 34 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 1: some stuff that might be might be a little confusing 35 00:02:03,360 --> 00:02:05,000 Speaker 1: if you get it all at once, but take us 36 00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 1: through point by point, because I'll be honest with you, man, 37 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:10,240 Speaker 1: we're getting to my favorite part of the story. Yeah, 38 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: here's here's where things get a little weird. Um. So, 39 00:02:14,080 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 1: we had talked about the A twelve that had started. 40 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,680 Speaker 1: The first A twelve arrived at Area fifty one in 41 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:23,679 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty two and wouldn't really be tested until the 42 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: following year. That's when pilots trained by the c I 43 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: A or pilots who had joined the CIA began to 44 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: test these these aircraft at that same time. All the 45 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: way back in nineteen sixty two, you had a project 46 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: that ended up being called the D twenty one. That 47 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: twenty one, by the way, where that number come from. Well, 48 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:48,520 Speaker 1: they had the A twelve and they figured having like 49 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 1: an A twelve and a D twelve would be really confusing, 50 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: so they just they just transpose those numbers to the 51 00:02:53,800 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: A twelve and the D twenty one. This is when 52 00:02:56,280 --> 00:03:00,120 Speaker 1: you realize how capricious the naming systems are. It's so 53 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:02,040 Speaker 1: you eventually like, ah, you know, I always thought those 54 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 1: letters of numbers really had special designation. Not all the time. 55 00:03:06,240 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 1: Oh here's an idea, Jonathan. We if we end up 56 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:13,800 Speaker 1: ever doing top secret government work, I hope that you 57 00:03:13,840 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: and I could both threw our names in the hat 58 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: to be the people who make up the code names. 59 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:22,480 Speaker 1: That'd be fantastic. And yeah, and and ultimately people will 60 00:03:22,520 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: fear us because they know that if they if they 61 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: do not please us, we will give them the worst 62 00:03:26,639 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: code names. Yeah. Yeah, Also, uh, going back to it, 63 00:03:30,880 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 1: Sorry for that, Uh, it's called the D twenty one 64 00:03:34,800 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 1: instead of the A twelve. Then we know they transpose 65 00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:41,560 Speaker 1: numbers to avoid uh, to avoid too much similarity. But 66 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:45,080 Speaker 1: what's this D twenty one about? So this is this 67 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: is where things are are pretty amazing. And the D 68 00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: twenty one was an unmanned vehicle. It was meant to 69 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: be a spy plane that would not require a human 70 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:58,080 Speaker 1: pilot behind the controls. I mean, there would be a 71 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: pilot controlling it, but they be control pulling it remotely 72 00:04:01,320 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: on the ground. So we are talking about this not 73 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:06,640 Speaker 1: an autonomous vehicle. I don't want to go so far 74 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 1: as to say it's like some sort of robotic super 75 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 1: thing that happened bo, but we're talking about a remote 76 00:04:12,680 --> 00:04:17,400 Speaker 1: controlled aerial vehicle that was essentially a jet. I mean, 77 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: it's it was not like it was that much smaller 78 00:04:21,279 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 1: than some of the other aircraft we're talking about. It 79 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: wasn't It wasn't like the size of a drone. You 80 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:27,719 Speaker 1: might go and get one of those little quad copters. 81 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: It was significantly larger than that. It was amazing to 82 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:35,960 Speaker 1: me that it was this early. Now the reasons behind 83 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: developing it make a lot of sense, because if you 84 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: have a manned vehicle, then clearly you have a human 85 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,239 Speaker 1: life at risk whenever that vehicle is in operation. Even 86 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 1: if first we have to consider the fact that flying 87 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,359 Speaker 1: is can be dangerous. Flying a spy plane in particular, 88 00:04:51,400 --> 00:04:54,040 Speaker 1: can be dangerous because the design may mean that it's 89 00:04:54,080 --> 00:04:57,560 Speaker 1: difficult for you to have it take off or land safely, 90 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 1: even if there's no enemy uh interference whatsoever during the mission, right, Yeah, 91 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:08,000 Speaker 1: and if you have to conduct evasive maneuvers, then there's 92 00:05:08,000 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: not really a nice way to say it. You're in 93 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: a lot of trouble. Yeah, I mean, the we already 94 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:15,680 Speaker 1: mentioned in the previous episode that the YouTube plane is 95 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:20,480 Speaker 1: notoriously difficult to fly. So just with that alone, if 96 00:05:20,520 --> 00:05:23,039 Speaker 1: you were able to have an unmanned version where you 97 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: could get that same sort of reconnaissance ability but you 98 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 1: don't put a pilot's life in danger, that's good. But 99 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: on top of that, there's another reason that's that goes 100 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:35,400 Speaker 1: back to safety, but it's more about the safety of 101 00:05:35,440 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: the country and not the pilot. Yeah, which means that 102 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: if you have one of these aircraft and it's unmanned 103 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: and it's shot down, there's no pilot for the folks 104 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,320 Speaker 1: who shot down the aircraft. There's no pilot for them 105 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 1: to capture and interrogate, so they're not going to get 106 00:05:51,240 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: any other information apart from the actual workings of whatever 107 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,440 Speaker 1: the device was. So they might see that, you know, 108 00:05:57,480 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 1: what kind of engine you're using or whatever, what sort 109 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:01,640 Speaker 1: of technology you made it work, but they're not going 110 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 1: to have a person that they can say, all right, 111 00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:06,480 Speaker 1: how many other operatives are in the area, where did 112 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:10,520 Speaker 1: you fly from? Yeah? So that also, I mean it's 113 00:06:10,520 --> 00:06:15,039 Speaker 1: not completely um, it's not just something that's in concern 114 00:06:15,080 --> 00:06:18,120 Speaker 1: for the pilot's well being. Uh, it's also a national 115 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: security issue, which you know, it's not pleasant to talk about, 116 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:23,919 Speaker 1: but it's certainly something they had to keep in mind. 117 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: And at this point sixty two, they're developing this early 118 00:06:29,520 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 1: nineteen sixties. Uh, the U s s R already knows 119 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,880 Speaker 1: about the you Tube and they're on the lookout for 120 00:06:35,960 --> 00:06:41,440 Speaker 1: these vehicles I almost say creatures, but for these planes absolutely. 121 00:06:41,480 --> 00:06:44,520 Speaker 1: And so this one in particular was was an an 122 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:49,279 Speaker 1: ambitious project. It wasn't just an unmanned drone, which already 123 00:06:49,360 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 1: like I always think of the quad copters. It's just 124 00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,680 Speaker 1: because the quad copters is such a popular consumer drone 125 00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 1: right now. And it's also kind of the design that 126 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:01,800 Speaker 1: we're seeing for stuff like the proposed most Amazon delivery drones. 127 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:06,119 Speaker 1: This was this was a ramjet engine drone. We're talking 128 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:10,560 Speaker 1: about a super sonic vehicle. It's not meant to travel 129 00:07:10,800 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: and speeds lower than that. In fact, you couldn't have 130 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,760 Speaker 1: this takeoff from a regular landing strip, you know, or 131 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: or a runway. You had this mounted to a separate vehicle, 132 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: like an A twelve. The A twelve would travel and 133 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: start to reach supersonic speeds, and from that point you 134 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: would then launch the D twenty one, which would already 135 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:36,400 Speaker 1: be traveling at a superspeed, a sonic supersonic speed, and 136 00:07:36,440 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: it would just go from there. So this meant that 137 00:07:40,400 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: they had a pretty risky launch sequence. I mean it 138 00:07:46,360 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: meant you already had an aircraft that was manned that 139 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,360 Speaker 1: had to be traveling at this incredible speed before you 140 00:07:51,400 --> 00:07:54,720 Speaker 1: even launched the unmanned vehicle during the test that the 141 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: drones would actually land slash crash, usually on a nearby mountain, 142 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: uh near Groom Lake during the actual tests, and so 143 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:07,640 Speaker 1: to retrieve it, they would send out another aircraft, usually 144 00:08:07,680 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: I guess a helicopter because it had to have some 145 00:08:09,360 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: hovering capabilities, and they had para jumpers, but the jumpers 146 00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: wouldn't parachute. What they would do is they would lower 147 00:08:15,760 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 1: down on lines from the aircraft hook the drone, you know, 148 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: it had some you know, they would attach the line 149 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:24,880 Speaker 1: to the drone in some way, and then they would 150 00:08:24,920 --> 00:08:28,320 Speaker 1: essentially tow the drones back to the facility, so that 151 00:08:28,360 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 1: you just didn't have these unmanned vehicles crashed on the 152 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,680 Speaker 1: side of mountains, which I'm sure would fuel even more 153 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,680 Speaker 1: speculation if they had been found by civilians, yeah, or 154 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: god forbid, a rival government. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So so 155 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:46,880 Speaker 1: they were a cool idea, but like I said, it 156 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:50,040 Speaker 1: was really dangerous and kind of impractical. There's a high 157 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:53,240 Speaker 1: rate of attrition for these vehicles, just because I mean, 158 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: think about it. We just named four big ifs in 159 00:08:58,000 --> 00:09:02,600 Speaker 1: the takeoff, if the twelve survived, if the pilot's cool, 160 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 1: if it reaches the you know, if it reaches the 161 00:09:05,720 --> 00:09:09,719 Speaker 1: speed sufficient to deploy, and if it deploys successfully. Yeah, 162 00:09:09,760 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: And unfortunately, there was an accident in nineteen sixty six. 163 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 1: It was a catastrophic failure the drone, which I believe 164 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:23,560 Speaker 1: was top mounted onto an A twelve, UH ended up 165 00:09:23,600 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: tilting downwards instead of upwards when it took off and 166 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:31,240 Speaker 1: cut the plane in half. Now, the two pilots inside 167 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 1: that plane. At this point, the the twelve was over 168 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 1: the Pacific Ocean. It had flown out over the coast 169 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:40,839 Speaker 1: of California. The two pilots aboard the A twelve were 170 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:45,199 Speaker 1: able to eject successfully. However, one of the two tragically 171 00:09:45,640 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 1: got caught up in his parachute line and drowned in 172 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 1: the ocean. The other one had been rescued successfully. And 173 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 1: the story is that Kelly Johnson, we talked about him 174 00:09:57,480 --> 00:10:00,760 Speaker 1: in the first episode about A one, is the guy 175 00:10:00,800 --> 00:10:04,360 Speaker 1: from Lockheed who very much was the the head of 176 00:10:04,440 --> 00:10:08,080 Speaker 1: development at Area fifty one, This guy who designed the 177 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: YouTube plane. Well, Kelly Johnson was so horrified at this accident. 178 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: I mean he really personally took it very, very hard. 179 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: That he reportedly shut down the project and then returned 180 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: the project funding to the Air Force and the CIA, 181 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 1: which is sort of unheard of in the world of contracting. Yeah, 182 00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 1: that I had heard that. The phrase I read was 183 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 1: emotionally and impulsively returned the funding. So, I mean it 184 00:10:38,760 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: was clear that he truly cared about the people who 185 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,760 Speaker 1: were working for him. So um. And that's something I 186 00:10:44,800 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: think that's also important to remember is that we often 187 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:50,800 Speaker 1: in these stories we d personalized dehumanize the folks who 188 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,319 Speaker 1: are involved in it. Because so much secrecy is there, 189 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:56,079 Speaker 1: we don't really know that much about the people involved. 190 00:10:56,559 --> 00:10:59,719 Speaker 1: But these are people, right, and they're probably friends, They 191 00:10:59,760 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: hang out, they probably eat together, things like you would 192 00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 1: do with your friends. Yeah. So it's it's good to 193 00:11:05,440 --> 00:11:10,160 Speaker 1: have this this touchstone to just remind ourselves that while 194 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:12,520 Speaker 1: we're talking about this, and while it lends itself to 195 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:17,719 Speaker 1: the whole discussion of shadowy government projects, ultimately we're not 196 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 1: talking about these giant organizations that are somehow sentient on 197 00:11:24,160 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: their own and acting without direction, their actual people behind, 198 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 1: not some faceless octopus. But no, that's that's the S 199 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: four facility, not area right, faceless octopus lake look it up. 200 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,800 Speaker 1: I know the uh they got a little lovecraft craft. 201 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,920 Speaker 1: That's fair. So in nineteen sixty seven, a big thing happens, right, 202 00:11:45,960 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: because the mission that we have always been trying to 203 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:53,600 Speaker 1: avoid in the United States at this time is to 204 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:58,920 Speaker 1: never have an aircraft captured. Right. But conversely, we want 205 00:11:58,920 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 1: to capture aircraft, and in fact we were able to 206 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,880 Speaker 1: do that. The very first MiG twenty one plane arrived 207 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:07,440 Speaker 1: at Groom Lake, So that's a Soviet aircraft. This is 208 00:12:07,480 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: then the the era of the U S s R UM. 209 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:14,120 Speaker 1: You know, I I grew up in the eighties, so 210 00:12:14,280 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: I grew up when the USSR was still a thing. 211 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: And even at that point, even maybe especially in the eighties, 212 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:24,800 Speaker 1: something like the thought of a MiG twenty one being 213 00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,520 Speaker 1: in US hands was a big, big deal because it 214 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:31,040 Speaker 1: meant that we could see what are our opponent in 215 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:33,400 Speaker 1: the Cold War was capable of. You could see what 216 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: the military capabilities of this aircraft were, and it meant 217 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:39,960 Speaker 1: that the Area fifty one became a testing ground not 218 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: just for developing technology here in the United States, but 219 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:47,160 Speaker 1: also for foreign technology, so that we could really understand 220 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:51,000 Speaker 1: what the capabilities were and therefore design our stuff to 221 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 1: meet and exceed those capabilities. So it becomes kind of 222 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:58,520 Speaker 1: this this game of uh, they get one square ahead, 223 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:00,319 Speaker 1: then we have to jump two squares a head, and 224 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: what are they able to do and what can't they do? 225 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:07,520 Speaker 1: And we're continually reverse engineering. Right. So with the arrival 226 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,600 Speaker 1: of Soviet aircraft at the Groom Lake facility, because this 227 00:13:10,640 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: MiG would not be the only one. There would be 228 00:13:12,520 --> 00:13:15,760 Speaker 1: other Soviet aircraft that would join it. Throughout the years, 229 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: the pilots begin to have a new name for the 230 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 1: restricted airspace, which in our last episode you may remember 231 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: we talked about being the Groom Box or just the box. 232 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,960 Speaker 1: Now it's called Red Square because now it is the 233 00:13:30,120 --> 00:13:33,400 Speaker 1: space the one place in the United States where you 234 00:13:33,480 --> 00:13:36,600 Speaker 1: might see Soviet aircraft lying overhead. And again that starts 235 00:13:36,600 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: to fuel a lot of conspiracy theories because you'd see 236 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,720 Speaker 1: a jet that doesn't look like anything you would have 237 00:13:43,760 --> 00:13:47,240 Speaker 1: seen here in the US, and you see it fly overhead, 238 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: and you wonder what the heck was that thing? And 239 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:52,440 Speaker 1: and that starts to you know, you start to fill 240 00:13:52,440 --> 00:13:53,960 Speaker 1: in the blanks as much as you can, and if 241 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:59,760 Speaker 1: you're a veteran, then you say, uh, the Soviet plane. 242 00:14:00,200 --> 00:14:03,199 Speaker 1: You go back to your to your your house, and 243 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: you sit down your typewriter and you type up the 244 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: first draft a Red Dawn, which one of us would 245 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 1: reach that first. But of course with this they immediately 246 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: begin uh retooling and working on new iterations of stealth 247 00:14:18,559 --> 00:14:22,440 Speaker 1: craft right right, So they're earlier there earlier plan had 248 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:27,040 Speaker 1: been reduced radar footprint, but mainly go go so fast 249 00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,600 Speaker 1: that people can't shoot you down. You know. It's a 250 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 1: pretty simple plan, but it can be really effective. However, 251 00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: it can mean also that the aircraft itself is really dangerous. 252 00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:38,480 Speaker 1: So they start looking at other ways of creating stealth technology, 253 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: and engineers over at Lockheeds start to develop something called 254 00:14:42,760 --> 00:14:46,760 Speaker 1: Have Blue which was a stealth aircraft, and it was 255 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:49,560 Speaker 1: a proof of concept aircraft. It wasn't meant to be 256 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: a full production vehicle. Only two Have Blue aircraft were 257 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: ever made, and they started as kind of ended up 258 00:14:58,080 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: being a predecessor to the F one seventeen Nighthawk, which 259 00:15:02,480 --> 00:15:05,800 Speaker 1: has another name that became famous in the early nineties, 260 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 1: that would be the stealth fighter. So this is the 261 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: even though it was not really a fighter by the way, 262 00:15:12,200 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: just set it was meant to. It was meant it 263 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:17,800 Speaker 1: was that air took round combat vehicle, not an air 264 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:19,800 Speaker 1: to air vehicle, which is what you would typically call 265 00:15:19,840 --> 00:15:23,880 Speaker 1: a fighter versus what the stealth what the Nighthawk actually was. 266 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 1: So and this is the one that if you look 267 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: at the pictures that has all those crazy funky angles 268 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: on it that are meant to deflect radar so that 269 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: the returning radar signals don't go back to the receiving station, 270 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,960 Speaker 1: which means that the receiving station doesn't get an accurate 271 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,760 Speaker 1: representation of where the aircraft is. Right, They get something, 272 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:48,360 Speaker 1: but it's not anything you can concretely trace, and hopefully 273 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,400 Speaker 1: in theory, not something you can shoot at. Right right, 274 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: that's the whole point of it. So they have blue aircraft? Uh? 275 00:15:55,080 --> 00:15:58,400 Speaker 1: Is that that predecessor? And so a lot of stealth 276 00:15:58,440 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: technology was pioneer at Area fifty one, especially in the 277 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 1: testing phase because again a lot of this stuff would 278 00:16:04,760 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: end up being built at Lockheed's other facilities and then 279 00:16:08,200 --> 00:16:11,520 Speaker 1: transported over to Area fifty one for testing. Now we're 280 00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: gonna skip ahead quite a bit. That was seventy seven 281 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 1: with the have blue aircraft and e D two. You 282 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: have tacit Blue? It does it? Does tacit Blue? Come on, 283 00:16:24,520 --> 00:16:27,520 Speaker 1: let's go fight the kaiju um. It's a still aircraft 284 00:16:27,600 --> 00:16:29,640 Speaker 1: that was developed by Northrop. So this one was not 285 00:16:29,920 --> 00:16:33,320 Speaker 1: a Lockheed aircraft as a Northrop aircraft and that's also 286 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:36,920 Speaker 1: tested room like. Only one was ever built and it 287 00:16:36,960 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 1: was retired in nineteen eighty five, So from two to 288 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: eighty five this thing existed. Now we didn't know about 289 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: it until nineties six, so this thing had been out 290 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 1: of commission for more than a decade before the government said, oh, 291 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: by the way, yeah we had this thing. It was 292 00:16:55,800 --> 00:16:58,280 Speaker 1: a forerunner of the stealth technology that we used today. 293 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:02,640 Speaker 1: It's called Tacit Blue. And guys, you know, this is 294 00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: an audio podcast, which is in some ways is great 295 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 1: because it means you can listen to it whenever you're 296 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 1: doing anything like jogging or driving and you're not missing 297 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 1: it out on anything. But it also means that we 298 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 1: can't do it justice by saying this thing looks weird. 299 00:17:16,200 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: It go google tacit Blue and take a look at 300 00:17:20,080 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: this aircraft because it does not look like other aircraft. 301 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:27,919 Speaker 1: It just it's very oddly designed and shaped. So it 302 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 1: certainly can tell you that the experiments in stealth technology 303 00:17:31,560 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 1: were uh, they went in all sorts of you're looking 304 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:38,760 Speaker 1: at it right now, aren't you, isn't it? Yeah? It 305 00:17:38,800 --> 00:17:43,480 Speaker 1: looks like if you've seen a sci fi film made 306 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 1: in the seventies about how crazy the two thousands, so 307 00:17:46,920 --> 00:17:49,200 Speaker 1: you're gonna be this is a plane they would fly 308 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,360 Speaker 1: you can see that plane flying overhead during clockwork orange. 309 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:55,639 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, because with all the white, uh, the white 310 00:17:55,680 --> 00:18:00,960 Speaker 1: furniture that's in that Yeah. So in nineteen four, Area 311 00:18:01,000 --> 00:18:04,399 Speaker 1: fifty one, the Groom Lake Facility petitions Congress for an 312 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:08,679 Speaker 1: additional eighty nine thousand acres of land. Meanwhile, you've got 313 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 1: armed guards who patrol the area, essentially patrolling that additional 314 00:18:13,560 --> 00:18:16,960 Speaker 1: eighty nine thousand acres, turning people away, even though it 315 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 1: wouldn't be till that the request would actually be approved 316 00:18:20,560 --> 00:18:24,040 Speaker 1: by Congress. So technically they were kind of acting like 317 00:18:24,080 --> 00:18:27,720 Speaker 1: the land was theirs before it officially had become theirs. 318 00:18:27,760 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 1: And you might wonder, well, why were they asking for 319 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:33,560 Speaker 1: all this land? I mean, besides being able to expand 320 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: outward for the testing purposes. Part of it was that 321 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,240 Speaker 1: Area fifty one, by the eighties was starting to become 322 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: one of those things that people were getting more and 323 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: more interested in. Right exactly, because at this time we 324 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: see as some of the what will later become the 325 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 1: big known conspiracy theories about Area fifty one or about 326 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:57,240 Speaker 1: Groom Lake. We see these taking root roots because there 327 00:18:57,280 --> 00:19:00,840 Speaker 1: are now people who are able to say, well, I 328 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 1: heard some rumors, I lived nearby. I drove out there, 329 00:19:04,359 --> 00:19:09,040 Speaker 1: and sure enough somebody showed up. Uh, and they'll say, 330 00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,240 Speaker 1: I don't know, was that the United Nations or was 331 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 1: that the US government? And they and they drove me away. 332 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:20,160 Speaker 1: And so now it begins to look like a real thing, 333 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,240 Speaker 1: and you still don't know exactly what's going on. Yeah, 334 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:27,320 Speaker 1: and there were a couple of of points, like natural 335 00:19:28,119 --> 00:19:32,880 Speaker 1: um hills, natural ledges that were not too far from 336 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,879 Speaker 1: the facility that originally we're not we're not within that 337 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,359 Speaker 1: that border, right, so you could crawl up there. Yeah, 338 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: if you hiked out there, which would be quite a 339 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: hike anyway, but because you know, and you'd have to 340 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:46,040 Speaker 1: be pretty well equipped to do it, but you could, 341 00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:47,960 Speaker 1: in theory, go and hike out at one of these 342 00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 1: little points of interest, set up a telescope or binoculars, 343 00:19:52,640 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 1: and maybe not get a real good idea of what 344 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: was going on, but at least see that there's activity 345 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 1: going on. And especially if you're there toward dusk and 346 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:01,960 Speaker 1: you're looking out I mean, if you're looking out in 347 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: the daytime, it's hard anyway, because you get a lot 348 00:20:03,760 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 1: of distortion from the heat and sound the desert. But 349 00:20:06,680 --> 00:20:08,720 Speaker 1: at nighttime, if you're out there looking at it, and 350 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:11,960 Speaker 1: and everything's lit up. You could you see that stuff 351 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 1: is going on. You might even see aircraft taking off 352 00:20:14,160 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 1: and landing, although you know, you might not have a 353 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:19,439 Speaker 1: real good look at what they how they're shaped. But 354 00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: it was one of those things that became a concern. 355 00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 1: And so while they didn't have official ownership of that land, 356 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:29,760 Speaker 1: they were discouraging people from being there. And by day, 357 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 1: I mean, uh, some folks in camouflage. We'll talk about 358 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:36,199 Speaker 1: them in a mythology episode because because they have they 359 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,280 Speaker 1: have a reputation, like they're called the Camo dudes. We'll 360 00:20:40,280 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: talk about that. And it's not just not just a couple, 361 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,760 Speaker 1: there's actually quite a few of all the yeah, it's 362 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 1: our teaser for part three exactly. So some citizens also 363 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:53,359 Speaker 1: point out that it's not strictly legal for them to 364 00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:57,960 Speaker 1: be told to leave land that doesn't belong to the facility. 365 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: You know, it's like the stud land is belong to you, 366 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: So therefore, what what authority do you have to tell 367 00:21:03,359 --> 00:21:07,199 Speaker 1: me to leave this place? Um, which that would end 368 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 1: up fueling the facility really petitioning to get access to 369 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,680 Speaker 1: this this light. And and you know, realistically, if somebody 370 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:19,120 Speaker 1: were to go to UH Quarter or to local law 371 00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: enforcement and say, hey, what's going on here, There is 372 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:26,360 Speaker 1: no chance that it would go anywhere. And the those 373 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 1: suspicions is very interesting. Those suspicions and those concerns were 374 00:21:31,560 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 1: finally verified in so all through this time the government 375 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:41,280 Speaker 1: is still saying there's nothing out there, or that they 376 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 1: cannot comment on it, or that it's a weather station, 377 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: that anything other than what it actually is. Right, and internally, 378 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,000 Speaker 1: at the same time, they're telling each other, we have 379 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 1: to keep security at the maximum level, the most unreasonable level, 380 00:21:55,320 --> 00:21:59,080 Speaker 1: because people cannot find out about this, and if we 381 00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:04,480 Speaker 1: slip at all, someone will yeah, and then lives. National 382 00:22:04,520 --> 00:22:10,240 Speaker 1: security everything's at stake. So that included telling companies that 383 00:22:10,280 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 1: operated satellites, hey, this this area of Nevada, you can't 384 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:20,880 Speaker 1: photograph that. You cannot image that, and either they would 385 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:25,240 Speaker 1: prevent companies from imaging that whole area of Nevada, or 386 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,840 Speaker 1: if those images were gathered, they would demand to have 387 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:32,240 Speaker 1: them censored so that the facility itself would not show 388 00:22:32,320 --> 00:22:36,679 Speaker 1: up on satellite photography, which worked fine until when a 389 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,880 Speaker 1: Soviet satellite flew overhead and took images of very fifty one. 390 00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: Here's the thing that the CIA finds a little frustrating. 391 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: They do not have authority over the Soviet Union. If 392 00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:51,960 Speaker 1: they did, their jobs would be so much easier during 393 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: this time. But because the Soviets ended up flying a 394 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: satellite overhead taking images, it meant that the cat was 395 00:22:59,560 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: out of the bag. So those images would end up 396 00:23:03,600 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: being published in an article for Popular Science, which was 397 00:23:07,640 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: the first time that most people got a real look 398 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:15,439 Speaker 1: and granted a far overhead look of what area fifty 399 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: one actually looks like. You haven't had a few people 400 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: try and sneak some photos here and there from a 401 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:24,920 Speaker 1: great distance. But one thing, if you're really far out 402 00:23:24,960 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 1: and you're taking a picture of a facility that's way 403 00:23:27,720 --> 00:23:29,920 Speaker 1: the heck out there, you have no sense of scale. 404 00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: You have no real idea of what you know. You 405 00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:33,360 Speaker 1: just see a bunch of bumps and you're like, yeah, 406 00:23:33,400 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: there's clearly something there, but I don't have any feel 407 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 1: for what it is. This gave you an idea of 408 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:40,240 Speaker 1: what the actual layout was. You could see hangars, you 409 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 1: could see where the housing units where, you could see 410 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:47,320 Speaker 1: the the the runways, so it actually showed what the 411 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: general layout was. Now granted that's not good enough for 412 00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: some people. We'll talk about that in the mythology. And 413 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: a lot of people saying, well, what do you not see? 414 00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: So now though as you as you said, uh, the 415 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,160 Speaker 1: Pandora boxes open, the cat is out of the bag, 416 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:10,119 Speaker 1: and this is the beginning of a well, depending on 417 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,840 Speaker 1: what you what perspective you're looking at this from, is 418 00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: either a watershed moment or a disastrous moment because now 419 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:21,800 Speaker 1: we see, uh, people who are not Soviets start to 420 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 1: go public. Yeah. Yeah, in this case, it's a story 421 00:24:25,800 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 1: that that involves tragedy. So in nine there was an 422 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: Area fifty one employee named Robert Frost who passed away, 423 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: and he wasn't the only one. There were other There 424 00:24:36,080 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: was another employee who passed away and several who reported 425 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 1: having serious health issues because what they had. Their story 426 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,080 Speaker 1: was that what they had to do was deal with 427 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:53,880 Speaker 1: um uh, various pieces of equipment and fuel and things 428 00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:57,600 Speaker 1: like that and destroy them by incinerating the incinerating them 429 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:01,160 Speaker 1: by essentially burning them in a pile, and and sifting 430 00:25:01,200 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: through all of that pile, burning anything that was left 431 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:10,480 Speaker 1: over because the smallest trace could give someone an indication 432 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: of what was going on. At the facility, so they 433 00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: couldn't keep anything. They couldn't they couldn't send anything out 434 00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,919 Speaker 1: to be destroyed. They had to destroy it all on site. Well, 435 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:22,719 Speaker 1: a lot of those materials were toxic, and even if 436 00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 1: they weren't toxic before you set them on fire, they 437 00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 1: became toxic once they were burning. So it meant that 438 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: a lot of these employees were exposed to toxic elements. 439 00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:36,680 Speaker 1: And they apparently according to the allegations laid by the 440 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,840 Speaker 1: former employees and and there's you know, the former spouses 441 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 1: who lost their spouses as the part of this Mrs 442 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,440 Speaker 1: Frost in this case. Yeah, so they have at least 443 00:25:47,520 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: alleged that the workers were not given access to appropriate 444 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:56,040 Speaker 1: gear that would protect them from the toxicity, that in fact, 445 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: they were essentially told, we don't have anything for you. 446 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: This has to be burned. Burn it. So they ended 447 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:08,120 Speaker 1: up grouping together and filing a lawsuit against the government 448 00:26:08,400 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 1: and they said, you know, this is unconscionable that this happened, 449 00:26:12,760 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 1: these these conditions existed, and they sought damages against the government. Well, 450 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:22,080 Speaker 1: the government's response was that because of the nature of 451 00:26:22,119 --> 00:26:25,920 Speaker 1: what goes on at this facility, they could not go 452 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,720 Speaker 1: forward with this um this lawsuit, because it would it 453 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: would mean revealing things that were state secrets that could 454 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:38,119 Speaker 1: endanger national security. And the judges have agreed with this 455 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,639 Speaker 1: and dismissed cases on the basis that pursuing such a 456 00:26:41,680 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 1: case would be a danger to national security, which has 457 00:26:44,520 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: led critics to point out, and I think rightfully so, 458 00:26:47,800 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 1: that this gives the government a get out of jail 459 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: free card, get out of accountability free card. If if 460 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: you are able to claim that whatever you did you 461 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,399 Speaker 1: did in the name of national security, and that having 462 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,199 Speaker 1: to defend yourself, we put that security at risk, and 463 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,880 Speaker 1: that means you are no longer accountable. That's a terrible precedent. Yeah, 464 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:12,080 Speaker 1: it's it's dangerous. And also on the other side, there 465 00:27:12,280 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 1: is a legitimate concern because I think this is a 466 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:21,440 Speaker 1: big misstep on Uncle Sam's part, because let's just construct 467 00:27:21,480 --> 00:27:25,480 Speaker 1: this speculative situation here. How did these people end up 468 00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:28,439 Speaker 1: getting exposed these toxic chemicals? They said they did not 469 00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: have informed consent. Essentially, does that tie into the need 470 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,080 Speaker 1: to know stuff? Were they concerned that if they said 471 00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 1: what these chemicals are and their toxicity, this would somehow 472 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,280 Speaker 1: get back to a foreign power Yeah, and we've gotten 473 00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:46,600 Speaker 1: to a point now where everyone knows what is going 474 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: on at a high level, right. You know, Area fifty 475 00:27:51,800 --> 00:27:56,720 Speaker 1: one is a testing grounds for new technology, specifically aircraft technology, 476 00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,879 Speaker 1: whether it's manned or unmanned. We know that that's a fact. 477 00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 1: So the question then becomes, well, couldn't we have this 478 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:09,520 Speaker 1: case framed in such a way where that where the 479 00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,120 Speaker 1: specifics remain top secret. We don't need to get into 480 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,920 Speaker 1: the specifics of what the vehicles were. We we just 481 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:21,800 Speaker 1: need to address whether or not in fact, workers were 482 00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: exposed to toxic conditions without without sufficient resources to deal 483 00:28:26,840 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 1: with it. Yeah, that that's really all we have to 484 00:28:30,280 --> 00:28:34,000 Speaker 1: to focus on, and then these sort of questions could 485 00:28:34,040 --> 00:28:36,320 Speaker 1: be answered that way. But that's not how it played out. 486 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:39,960 Speaker 1: And in fact, uh, these things have become even more 487 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: of a concern in the post nine eleven world where 488 00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: transparency is even harder to come by in certain fields 489 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: of government. So, you know, you do have to balance 490 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: out the transparency to the national security, but when it 491 00:28:55,480 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 1: comes down to people's lives and saying well, you know this, 492 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,440 Speaker 1: this is this is an example of where we could 493 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,520 Speaker 1: say the government is is wronging the citizens, that it's 494 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: supposed to represent. Then that that's a whole other question. 495 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 1: Now it could end up being that the government ends 496 00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,720 Speaker 1: up accommodating various workers and families and other ways that 497 00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:20,120 Speaker 1: are very quiet that we don't know about. That could happen, 498 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: but we don't know that, right, and the the implications 499 00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: I've seen suggest that that had not happened. But moving on, Uh, 500 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,920 Speaker 1: you know, it's it's I certainly don't want to be 501 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:34,840 Speaker 1: the one who has to make the decisions, so I 502 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: argue like this is a simple thing, but clearly it's 503 00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: a very complex matter. So in a f one would 504 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:44,720 Speaker 1: acquire two sites. These are two of those sites that 505 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: I had talked about being kind of a problem for 506 00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:51,560 Speaker 1: Area fifty one. Uh, there was Freedom Ridge and white 507 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 1: Side's Peak. Both of those had been popular spots for people, 508 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:57,560 Speaker 1: And by popular I mean a few times a year, 509 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: so folks would go out there with the binoculars. Um, 510 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: these have been spots where people would go and try 511 00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:03,960 Speaker 1: and get a distant look. Yeah, I think the closest 512 00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:06,240 Speaker 1: you can get to Area fifty one right now. And 513 00:30:06,280 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: I may even be wrong about this, It might not 514 00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,640 Speaker 1: be that accurate at this point, but I believe it's 515 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:14,960 Speaker 1: twenty six miles away, right, so you cannot snatch a photograph. 516 00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: And that's what you mean, there's legally yeah, yeah, yeah, 517 00:30:19,120 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: if you were to trespass, it would be really stupid. 518 00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: And we're saying, we're not saying do it. In fact, Jonathan, 519 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: both you and I are emphatically saying, don't ever go 520 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:35,560 Speaker 1: there unless you are specifically invited told by someone who 521 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,040 Speaker 1: is in charge. If you work there, go ahead and go. 522 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 1: It's your job. So um, yeah, but at any rate, 523 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 1: it's it's definitely one of those things where if you 524 00:30:45,360 --> 00:30:48,480 Speaker 1: are not invited, you do not go there. So in 525 00:30:48,480 --> 00:30:52,000 Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen, there was a declassified ci A document, 526 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: actually a group of documents that referred to Area fifty 527 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: one by that very name. Again, may have been a 528 00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: mistake that that part hadn't been blacked out, right, But Jonathan, 529 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 1: this this two thousand thirteen thing, which is very recent. 530 00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:11,280 Speaker 1: It happened several several years after. Another point, a legislative 531 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,880 Speaker 1: point that I think is very important to underline. With 532 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: some people's favorite presidents, some people's least favorite president, our 533 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:26,320 Speaker 1: boys saxophonist extraordinaire William Clinton, Yeah, good old Bill. So 534 00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:30,640 Speaker 1: Clinton had signed an act into law that puts Area 535 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: fifty one beyond investigation and legislation to preserve national security, 536 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: which means there were a lot of different organizations that 537 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 1: were trying to get access out of out of various concerns. 538 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: You had people who were concerned for the health of 539 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: the workers, like the lawsuits that we had mentioned. There 540 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: are also environmental concerns, so environmentalists and environmental agencies that 541 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: wanted to make sure that the facility was following appropriate 542 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: measures to make to make sure it wasn't polluting the area, 543 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 1: wasn't affecting water tables, wasn't affec the ecosystem, because when 544 00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: you hear here things like they're burning toxic materials, that 545 00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:11,680 Speaker 1: raises a lot of flags. And Clinton's Act essentially said 546 00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:14,719 Speaker 1: it doesn't matter. You're not gonna You're not gonna get 547 00:32:14,720 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 1: the clearance to investigate this, So whether something is going 548 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,600 Speaker 1: on or not, you're never gonna know. And essentially every 549 00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: president since then has backed that up, because again, it's 550 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:28,000 Speaker 1: one of those national security issues where you say, all right, 551 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 1: I have to make a call. Do I call it 552 00:32:30,280 --> 00:32:33,520 Speaker 1: on the side of national security, which a lot of 553 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,880 Speaker 1: people think is kind of a cop out answer. Yeah, 554 00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: like it's again like it's a way to just avoid accountability. 555 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: That's how it can often be perceived. And maybe the 556 00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 1: truth is that, no, it really is a matter of 557 00:32:45,720 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: national security. It's just hard to appreciate when you don't know, 558 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,120 Speaker 1: right and you can't know because if you did know, 559 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,680 Speaker 1: it would no longer be safe. And you don't know 560 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:57,320 Speaker 1: what you don't know, the old unknown, Yeah exactly. So, uh, well, 561 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: we I don't know. I'm pretty I'm pretty firm on 562 00:33:00,600 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: what I don't know. It's it's a lot your authority 563 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 1: on what you Yeah, I could write a book on 564 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 1: what I don't know, but what you do know on 565 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:12,440 Speaker 1: what we have we've looked at here so far, is that, um, 566 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:15,800 Speaker 1: hopefully we've we've done a pretty bang up job of 567 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:20,520 Speaker 1: going through the facts. You know enough, I think to 568 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 1: give us a hypothetical or high level look at what 569 00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: it would be like if Jonathan Strickland worked at Groom 570 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:33,400 Speaker 1: Lake and and and just uncle Sam, if you're listening, 571 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,200 Speaker 1: he doesn't I do not know, But here here's kind 572 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: of what it would sound like according to the few 573 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,600 Speaker 1: accounts that we have that seemed credible. Keep in mind, 574 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:44,120 Speaker 1: there are a lot of people who have claimed to 575 00:33:44,240 --> 00:33:46,080 Speaker 1: have worked at groom Lake at one time or another, 576 00:33:46,120 --> 00:33:49,479 Speaker 1: who may or may not have actually worked at groom Lake. Right, 577 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:53,400 Speaker 1: but let's say that, Let's say I'm i'm I'm working there. 578 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,200 Speaker 1: This is kind of what the perhaps the the orientation 579 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:02,840 Speaker 1: video would go high. So you've decided to work at 580 00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,480 Speaker 1: groom Lake. Welcome to the team. When you turn in 581 00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,040 Speaker 1: on Monday morning at the McCarron Airport in Las Vegas, 582 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:14,320 Speaker 1: you'll go straight to a secret area. Well, you'll board 583 00:34:14,680 --> 00:34:19,200 Speaker 1: a Janet aircraft. Janet is the call sign. It's just 584 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,840 Speaker 1: a white plane with a red stripe. Then it's just 585 00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:27,120 Speaker 1: a quick johnt to the airport over at Area fifty one. 586 00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 1: You'll get off the aircraft and go straight to work. 587 00:34:31,000 --> 00:34:34,720 Speaker 1: Don't look around because all that other stuff is secret. 588 00:34:35,440 --> 00:34:38,200 Speaker 1: You will work exactly on the projects you've been assigned 589 00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:42,080 Speaker 1: and on nothing else. In your spare time, maybe you'd 590 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,960 Speaker 1: like to play some baseball, perhaps tennis, go for a swim, 591 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:50,680 Speaker 1: or visit a wonderful cafeteria. All the amenities you can 592 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 1: imagine are available at Area fifty one. So that would 593 00:34:54,280 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 1: be kind of the beginning. I wasn't in the mike 594 00:35:00,600 --> 00:35:04,320 Speaker 1: but um, but yeah, everything you're saying is is spot on. 595 00:35:05,400 --> 00:35:10,480 Speaker 1: These seven thirty seven's are always called Janets. Yeah, it's 596 00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 1: it's that's the call sign, so people refer to it 597 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,640 Speaker 1: as Janet Airlines. But these are that's not an official 598 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:22,480 Speaker 1: company name, it's that they contracted seven thirty seven's. Uh. 599 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: If you want to be a flight attendant on one 600 00:35:24,360 --> 00:35:27,359 Speaker 1: of these, you have to go through the same sort 601 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,359 Speaker 1: of background check you would if you were to work 602 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:33,120 Speaker 1: at Area one. In fact, you would have to make 603 00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 1: sure that you got that top secret classification clearance because 604 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 1: you were going to come into contact with folks who 605 00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: are working on top secret projects. So you have to 606 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,399 Speaker 1: be you have to prove that your trustworthy. There are, 607 00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:47,879 Speaker 1: like I said, some amenities. They have a gym, they've 608 00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,240 Speaker 1: got a movie theater. The pool they use is mostly 609 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 1: used for training purposes for pilots to train for what 610 00:35:56,360 --> 00:36:00,880 Speaker 1: would happen if they eject over water. Yeah, things like 611 00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:05,800 Speaker 1: new flight suits that are designed for high altitude flying. 612 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: You know, they had to make new flight suits because people, 613 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,200 Speaker 1: pilots were suddenly flying at altitudes that no human had 614 00:36:12,280 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 1: ever gone to before, or at least not I had 615 00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 1: gone to for a sustained amount of time. Yeah, so 616 00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:20,720 Speaker 1: they had to they had to say, well, what happens 617 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 1: if they have to eject over water? Can they get out? 618 00:36:24,080 --> 00:36:26,080 Speaker 1: Is those suit going to weigh them down? And the 619 00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: way they tested is they'd essentially have pilots fall from 620 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 1: a great height into a pool while wearing one of 621 00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 1: those suits, and they've tested out that way, so um so, 622 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 1: probably not going for a pleasure swim, although from what 623 00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,480 Speaker 1: I understand, some of the some of the people who 624 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: are running who are running the programs, actually did have 625 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:48,920 Speaker 1: their pilots go for a swim first before going on 626 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,800 Speaker 1: a a mission, just to help kind of kind of 627 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,319 Speaker 1: focus themselves. So it all depends. The food, like I said, 628 00:36:55,440 --> 00:36:58,319 Speaker 1: was supposedly really good apparently, and I have no idea 629 00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,440 Speaker 1: if this is true, but if aparently, if the test 630 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:06,080 Speaker 1: flight involved going to some remote location like Maine, the 631 00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:09,719 Speaker 1: pilots would sometimes bring back lobsters and so you would 632 00:37:09,800 --> 00:37:11,800 Speaker 1: end up being able to have fresh lobster them and 633 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: caught that morning in a desert in Nevada. But now, 634 00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,880 Speaker 1: of course, for people who are listening to the series, 635 00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:23,839 Speaker 1: you notice that we've mentioned the early planes were very, 636 00:37:24,000 --> 00:37:27,920 Speaker 1: very difficult and in some cases impossible to land to 637 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:30,960 Speaker 1: stop over. So it just makes you think about how 638 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,879 Speaker 1: far this technology has gone, because it makes me think 639 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: where did they land these planes? Where? If you're working 640 00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,520 Speaker 1: on a top secret aircraft, where do you land in 641 00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,759 Speaker 1: Maine where you could go pick up some lobster and 642 00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 1: come back. I mean, I heard the story, but I 643 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: just don't know how that worked. And how do you 644 00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:51,800 Speaker 1: give a lobster security clearance? Right? I mean those guys 645 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,920 Speaker 1: loose mandible sink ships. But uh and and also I 646 00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,640 Speaker 1: mentioned that Area fifty one has a black budget project. 647 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 1: So there have been several people who have reported that 648 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,799 Speaker 1: the way they were paid was in cash, that they 649 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:08,040 Speaker 1: were not given a check, because a check would mean 650 00:38:08,080 --> 00:38:12,120 Speaker 1: that it's traceable to a specific organization, whatever that might be, 651 00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:15,080 Speaker 1: whether it's Lockheed or it's c I A or whatever, 652 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:19,160 Speaker 1: which that that happens in. Yeah, yeah, no, you have 653 00:38:19,360 --> 00:38:22,200 Speaker 1: you have people who collect intelligence who just pour over paperwork. 654 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 1: Not all spying involves dressing in a tuxedo and betting 655 00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:31,040 Speaker 1: on black I mean some spying is pouring over countless 656 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,279 Speaker 1: documents trying to look for hints at what's really going 657 00:38:34,360 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 1: on underneath most in fact, yeah, yeah, great, deal. Of course, 658 00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:41,000 Speaker 1: a lot of it now has been relegated to algorithms, 659 00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: which means that the poor clerks don't have to do 660 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,520 Speaker 1: it anymore, but at any rate. So you might get 661 00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:50,160 Speaker 1: paid in cash, and you might be told that whenever 662 00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,000 Speaker 1: you sign for anything, you have to use an assumed 663 00:38:52,080 --> 00:38:57,080 Speaker 1: name Josh Clark. When I sign everything, Josh doesn't realize 664 00:38:57,080 --> 00:38:59,520 Speaker 1: that's big Co signed alone from my house. So, um, 665 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 1: that's totally not true. Uh so, yeah, the it's they 666 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,319 Speaker 1: take their secrecy seriously all the way from the very 667 00:39:08,640 --> 00:39:11,760 Speaker 1: high level we're talking like all that that restricted airspace 668 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:14,359 Speaker 1: that goes all the way up to space to how 669 00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:18,280 Speaker 1: they pay the employees. Now, that doesn't say that doesn't 670 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:21,839 Speaker 1: mean that everything we've said today is accurate for how 671 00:39:21,920 --> 00:39:24,719 Speaker 1: things work at Area fifty one today. Most of the 672 00:39:24,760 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 1: information we have dates from folks who are discussing things 673 00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:32,040 Speaker 1: that happen back in the sixties or seventies. Because they 674 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:36,480 Speaker 1: take the secrecy so seriously, and because people are signing 675 00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,879 Speaker 1: over oaths that say they will not, under any circumstances 676 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,839 Speaker 1: share the information, it means that we don't have up 677 00:39:44,880 --> 00:39:48,320 Speaker 1: to date information. Now. I imagine that most of what's 678 00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 1: going on at Area fifty one these days probably involves 679 00:39:52,200 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: a lot more on man drones. I think that's probably 680 00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:57,040 Speaker 1: one of the big things that are under development there, 681 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 1: and it really since it is an aircraft for I 682 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,839 Speaker 1: imagine that that's mostly what we're seeing. You know, there 683 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,200 Speaker 1: are a lot of people who suggest that other types 684 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:10,800 Speaker 1: of UH technology are under development Area fifty one, but 685 00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:13,560 Speaker 1: that's really not what it's set up to do, right. Yeah, 686 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,239 Speaker 1: when you set up a facility like that there, it 687 00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:20,640 Speaker 1: goes back to us talking about the specialization of these 688 00:40:20,840 --> 00:40:24,160 Speaker 1: various aircraft. The base is the same. A base has 689 00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 1: to specialize. It can't be all things to all projects. So, 690 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:32,440 Speaker 1: for instance, another an unmanned UH space project that's going 691 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,719 Speaker 1: on now, the X thirty five B. I think it 692 00:40:35,920 --> 00:40:38,120 Speaker 1: is UH, and I'm gonna double check while I was 693 00:40:38,200 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 1: talking here. UH. That is something that goes into space. 694 00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:46,960 Speaker 1: It requires a platform capable of launching it into near 695 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:50,360 Speaker 1: Earth orbit, So it is how would you do that? 696 00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:52,160 Speaker 1: You wouldn't be able to do that at a facility 697 00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,440 Speaker 1: like Area fifty one that doesn't have it, and if 698 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:56,879 Speaker 1: it did have it, you would you know, you would 699 00:40:56,920 --> 00:40:58,759 Speaker 1: have to be further out than twenty five miles to 700 00:40:58,880 --> 00:41:02,719 Speaker 1: not notice. Right. So a lot of the I think 701 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:04,520 Speaker 1: a lot of the drones that you'll that would be 702 00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,400 Speaker 1: under development at Area fifty one would either be lower 703 00:41:08,480 --> 00:41:11,440 Speaker 1: altitude drones or they would be like the old D 704 00:41:11,600 --> 00:41:15,080 Speaker 1: twenty one where it was launched from a larger vehicle, right, Yeah, 705 00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,200 Speaker 1: and we're talking about U A v. S at this point, 706 00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:21,279 Speaker 1: the Predator or something. Yeah, but the which is a 707 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:23,680 Speaker 1: name for you a v folks, not the not the movie, 708 00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,520 Speaker 1: right they that's actually uh, Area fifty one is where 709 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:32,480 Speaker 1: they conceived and shot the Predator. It's also the fantastic 710 00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:37,160 Speaker 1: location for the film Independence Day. Uh. Sorry, that's okay. 711 00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 1: So we are not done with Area fifty one yet. 712 00:41:41,280 --> 00:41:44,759 Speaker 1: We have covered the history as much of the real 713 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 1: history as is known that we can talk about. Um. 714 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,759 Speaker 1: There of course a lot more details on all of 715 00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:53,759 Speaker 1: these stories, and there's some fantastic books that have been 716 00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:57,200 Speaker 1: written about the subject where people have meticulously researched all 717 00:41:57,320 --> 00:42:00,440 Speaker 1: the available information and piece together as much as they 718 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 1: could to get us as close to a full story 719 00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:05,000 Speaker 1: as you can get without being on the inside. But 720 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,560 Speaker 1: we aren't done there because in our next episode, Ben 721 00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,400 Speaker 1: and I are going to uh, we're going to explore 722 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:14,360 Speaker 1: the mythology a very fifty one and the fact that 723 00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:16,520 Speaker 1: you know, in in pop culture, we think of it 724 00:42:17,280 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 1: as not just a place where spy technology was tested 725 00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:24,160 Speaker 1: or and is still tested, but a place where other 726 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:29,600 Speaker 1: worldly technology may resign. Right, yes, And that goes along 727 00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:34,240 Speaker 1: with some of the some of the very very strange 728 00:42:34,360 --> 00:42:36,759 Speaker 1: things that you have probably heard in your own day 729 00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:39,399 Speaker 1: to day life about Area fifty one. When we say 730 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:43,759 Speaker 1: other worldly, we don't just mean this dimension. Yeah, it could. 731 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:47,359 Speaker 1: It could be pretty weird. And they range from things 732 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,440 Speaker 1: that you you could say, I can see why people 733 00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:55,359 Speaker 1: believe that too. How is how was this ever an 734 00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 1: idea that someone had? Uh, there's a pretty pretty dynamic 735 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:02,640 Speaker 1: change there. So I look forward to having that discussion 736 00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 1: with you. Ben. We're going to end our recording for 737 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:09,480 Speaker 1: today and and conclude, but um, just just out of 738 00:43:09,560 --> 00:43:13,279 Speaker 1: curiosity before we close the door on the the as 739 00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:15,080 Speaker 1: much of the real story of Avery fifty one as 740 00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,560 Speaker 1: we can know, What do you think? What do you 741 00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:19,960 Speaker 1: think about? What are your thoughts when you hear Area 742 00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:24,840 Speaker 1: fifty one? Okay, yeah, thank you. The the just of 743 00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:28,759 Speaker 1: Area fifty one. We've we've explored us some of the 744 00:43:29,040 --> 00:43:32,399 Speaker 1: effects that secrecy have on people's the way they frame 745 00:43:32,520 --> 00:43:35,279 Speaker 1: questions and the way they address an area. UM, I 746 00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:39,640 Speaker 1: think it's clear that there is a grain of truth 747 00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:43,160 Speaker 1: to some of the beliefs, unfounded as they may be 748 00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,880 Speaker 1: about Area fifty one, we do know that there is 749 00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: secret technology being tested there, absolutely right. We know that 750 00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:54,239 Speaker 1: it is. UM. It's it's not unreasonable to assume that 751 00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,760 Speaker 1: it is several years ahead of what we would consider 752 00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:03,160 Speaker 1: current publicly known pioneering research. And I would add to 753 00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:08,040 Speaker 1: that that UM, when we when we say that there 754 00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:10,640 Speaker 1: is a grain of truth to these things, what we're 755 00:44:10,680 --> 00:44:14,880 Speaker 1: talking about more is similar to a piece of sand 756 00:44:15,040 --> 00:44:20,040 Speaker 1: getting inside of seashell building a pearl. There's so much 757 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:25,799 Speaker 1: embellishment that occurs that at some point people will consciously 758 00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:31,760 Speaker 1: dismiss the actual explanation. Where there's so much excitement about 759 00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,440 Speaker 1: the embellishment and people fall in love with these stories 760 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:37,080 Speaker 1: that it can be difficult at times for them to 761 00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,359 Speaker 1: admit when we say, oh, we have found the grain 762 00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:43,640 Speaker 1: of sand called Project Mogul or something like that. And 763 00:44:43,880 --> 00:44:48,719 Speaker 1: so as a result, we we run into what really 764 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:54,000 Speaker 1: is a new mythology that perpetuates itself. And honestly, the 765 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:57,799 Speaker 1: government is not helping with that at all, but them, 766 00:44:57,880 --> 00:44:59,800 Speaker 1: to be fair, I think the government has a vested 767 00:44:59,840 --> 00:45:03,000 Speaker 1: in in letting that go as long as it needs 768 00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:06,200 Speaker 1: to go, because if that means that the attention is 769 00:45:06,280 --> 00:45:10,160 Speaker 1: put on something that is not real while they can 770 00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:14,840 Speaker 1: work on very real but very secret projects, it benefits right, Like, 771 00:45:14,960 --> 00:45:18,040 Speaker 1: there's there's not a whole lot of incentive to say 772 00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:21,759 Speaker 1: you are completely wrong. And here's why when they could 773 00:45:21,800 --> 00:45:25,440 Speaker 1: say we, you know, we have no comment on that, 774 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:29,960 Speaker 1: which gives them the benefit of saying we didn't. We 775 00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:34,000 Speaker 1: didn't confirm it, we didn't really deny it strongly either. 776 00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:36,440 Speaker 1: At the same time, we can continue our work on 777 00:45:36,480 --> 00:45:39,400 Speaker 1: the very secret stuff that we actually need to develop. Um. 778 00:45:39,520 --> 00:45:41,759 Speaker 1: I personally think that such a such a facility like 779 00:45:41,840 --> 00:45:45,440 Speaker 1: Area fifty one, in a world where spying is uh 780 00:45:46,280 --> 00:45:53,120 Speaker 1: necessary evil, that it's absolutely the perfect the perfect facility 781 00:45:53,160 --> 00:45:56,239 Speaker 1: for that because it has stood the test of time. 782 00:45:56,320 --> 00:45:58,640 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, the idea of something that was 783 00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,759 Speaker 1: built in the fifties still maintaining this level of mystique, 784 00:46:02,400 --> 00:46:06,279 Speaker 1: you know, five more than five decades later, is pretty incredible. 785 00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:10,640 Speaker 1: So it's it's pretty it's a fascinating subject to me. 786 00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:15,520 Speaker 1: I love the idea of these engineers working to meet 787 00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,200 Speaker 1: seemingly unachievable goals. I mean, the idea of the idea 788 00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:23,080 Speaker 1: of creating an aircraft that could defy radar was was 789 00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,120 Speaker 1: a real eye opener. And you know, you've got to 790 00:46:25,200 --> 00:46:27,360 Speaker 1: keep in mind that the United States had that technology 791 00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:30,800 Speaker 1: years before we ever had any public unveiling of it. 792 00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:35,360 Speaker 1: So that's pretty exciting stuff, and I love the idea 793 00:46:35,400 --> 00:46:37,560 Speaker 1: of it. I do think that the operation of it 794 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:42,120 Speaker 1: lends itself to some potential misuses of power. I really 795 00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:45,640 Speaker 1: do think that this, this use of national security to 796 00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:50,320 Speaker 1: kind of um distance yourself from any culpability is a 797 00:46:50,600 --> 00:46:54,640 Speaker 1: little distasteful. Well yeah, I mean, national security is the 798 00:46:54,719 --> 00:46:57,320 Speaker 1: way I like to think of it. Often in the 799 00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,200 Speaker 1: post nine eleven world, national security has been the come 800 00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:03,680 Speaker 1: the equivalent of hitting base in the Great Game of 801 00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:08,080 Speaker 1: Tag than this national discourse. So one one other thing 802 00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:10,480 Speaker 1: that I wanted to ask you, and again, as always, 803 00:47:10,520 --> 00:47:13,160 Speaker 1: thank you for having me on the show. I wanted 804 00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:18,120 Speaker 1: to ask you, do you think that people should be 805 00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:22,640 Speaker 1: people who let me phrase this correctly, people. I wanted 806 00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:27,040 Speaker 1: to ask you, what do you think about the scrutiny 807 00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,680 Speaker 1: regarding area of fifty one or Groom Lake, because it's 808 00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:34,000 Speaker 1: pretty well known right now. So I think that the 809 00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,000 Speaker 1: question is what else is out there? And my question 810 00:47:37,120 --> 00:47:40,279 Speaker 1: is do you think that there are other lesser known 811 00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,719 Speaker 1: places where um, not the bulk of the work, but 812 00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:47,120 Speaker 1: other work has taken place. Oh yeah, I mean Area 813 00:47:47,560 --> 00:47:50,080 Speaker 1: one is really a testing ground, So if you're talking 814 00:47:50,160 --> 00:47:53,760 Speaker 1: about actual research and development to the point of before 815 00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:57,120 Speaker 1: you even built something, where you're just figuring out prototypes. 816 00:47:57,640 --> 00:48:00,640 Speaker 1: There are facilities all over the United States that are 817 00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,240 Speaker 1: involved in that in some way or another, Like Lockheed 818 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:08,520 Speaker 1: has has areas that they have famously disguised from the 819 00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:11,239 Speaker 1: air so that you couldn't see what was going on 820 00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,120 Speaker 1: or where where even a building was. But they're not 821 00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:15,919 Speaker 1: the only one by a long shot. I mean there's 822 00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:20,480 Speaker 1: their companies and organizations um, as well as as actual 823 00:48:20,560 --> 00:48:26,240 Speaker 1: military facilities that are just as secretive as Area fifty 824 00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:29,600 Speaker 1: one is, but perhaps don't have the same level of mystique, right. 825 00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:31,799 Speaker 1: I mean, when you're talking about aircraft and you're seeing 826 00:48:31,880 --> 00:48:37,439 Speaker 1: weird things fly overhead, that definitely brings some questions to mind. 827 00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:40,200 Speaker 1: If it's a facility that you can't really see and 828 00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:43,080 Speaker 1: all the stuff they do is ground related, it's not 829 00:48:43,160 --> 00:48:46,239 Speaker 1: going to gain that same level of attention. So they're 830 00:48:46,360 --> 00:48:50,040 Speaker 1: definitely facilities like it that are looking at different types 831 00:48:50,080 --> 00:48:55,000 Speaker 1: of technology, whether it's weapons based or vehicle based or 832 00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:59,680 Speaker 1: personal armor, anything along those lines. But because of the 833 00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:02,560 Speaker 1: very nature of what is done at Area fifty one, 834 00:49:02,640 --> 00:49:04,560 Speaker 1: and then the fact that you get a light show 835 00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:08,560 Speaker 1: at night, you know what, that is what I think 836 00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:11,399 Speaker 1: sets it apart. It get it creates. We can see 837 00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:15,000 Speaker 1: just enough to know that something weird is going on, 838 00:49:15,440 --> 00:49:17,080 Speaker 1: but we can't see enough for us to be able 839 00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:20,320 Speaker 1: to put it all together, and that is where we 840 00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:23,000 Speaker 1: end up creating the mythology around it. That's how I 841 00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:28,399 Speaker 1: filled up first dates, you know, just been too long 842 00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:31,640 Speaker 1: for me. It's been eighteen years since I went on 843 00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:34,759 Speaker 1: our first date. So, uh, guys, we're gonna wrap this 844 00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:38,040 Speaker 1: discussion up. If you have any suggestions for future episodes 845 00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,799 Speaker 1: of Tech Stuff, maybe there's another topic that you would 846 00:49:40,840 --> 00:49:43,399 Speaker 1: love to hear. You know, I could invite Ben back 847 00:49:43,480 --> 00:49:46,440 Speaker 1: and you might think, oh, there's this crazy you know, 848 00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:49,680 Speaker 1: conspiracy technology I've always wanted to hear about, or something 849 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:51,480 Speaker 1: along those lines. I know Ben loves to do that 850 00:49:51,680 --> 00:49:55,000 Speaker 1: kind of thing. Our email addresses Tech Stuff at how 851 00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:56,759 Speaker 1: stuff works dot com, or you can drop us a 852 00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,640 Speaker 1: line on Twitter, Facebook, or Tumbler or handle it all 853 00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:02,680 Speaker 1: three tech stuff hs W and you'll hear from me again. 854 00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:07,759 Speaker 1: I'm really sick for more on this and thousands of 855 00:50:07,800 --> 00:50:10,040 Speaker 1: other topics. Is it how stuff Works dot com