WEBVTT - Part Two: Antonio Salazar: The Smartest Fascist Dictator 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:08.240 Also media, Hey, everybody, it's Behind the Bastards the podcast 0:00:08.320 --> 0:00:10.800 that you know what it is because you're listening to it, 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:12.840 and you're listening to part two of our episodes of 0:00:12.920 --> 0:00:15.720 Antonio Salazar, so you're probably not tuning into the show 0:00:15.720 --> 0:00:18.880 for the first time, going, I wonder what this series is. 0:00:19.160 --> 0:00:20.840 I'm going to click on an episode. I got a 0:00:20.840 --> 0:00:23.400 guy I've never heard of that's that's clearly labeled as 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:25.760 part two. Like, no one who would do that? 0:00:26.680 --> 0:00:28.160 Are tuning in? Yeah? 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:30.760 Exactly exactly who would do like? No one? 0:00:32.840 --> 0:00:33.760 No, I liked it. 0:00:33.960 --> 0:00:39.400 It's okay, it's okay. The water bottle, so our guest today, 0:00:40.240 --> 0:00:45.040 Jeff may rhymed, but I didn't mean for it to look. 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:46.880 Man, I have a very rhymable name. 0:00:47.120 --> 0:00:47.919 You do you do? 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:49.760 It's useful. 0:00:50.720 --> 0:00:54.040 It's like it was useful in this exactly one instance. 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:59.160 It's a month like people love. Some teachers saw my 0:00:59.280 --> 0:01:00.560 name and they never stopped. 0:01:00.800 --> 0:01:03.040 No, no, they Yeah, that you can vamp on that 0:01:03.080 --> 0:01:05.800 for solid fifteen minutes of what's supposed to be math class. 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:09.800 Was great, Jeff may If you were Jeff April, we 0:01:09.840 --> 0:01:11.959 would not have had you on the show. Oh I 0:01:12.040 --> 0:01:19.320 get it, fat Yeah, absolutely not. Jeff Jeff June. Maybe 0:01:19.600 --> 0:01:21.520 that that actually has a kind of nice ring to it, 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:27.760 you know, yeah, like June on the show. Yeah, Jeff July. No, 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:30.360 it's still illiterative. But I don't like it. I don't 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:30.839 know why. 0:01:31.000 --> 0:01:34.320 I almost stated a girl named Mazie. 0:01:35.000 --> 0:01:36.399 She went by mazy May. 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:39.360 Oh my god, and then she quickly pumped. 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:41.360 Yeah, no, yeah, you can't get in. You can't get 0:01:41.680 --> 0:01:42.920 too serious with that one. 0:01:43.280 --> 0:01:45.399 I was like, but come on, I was like, this 0:01:45.440 --> 0:01:46.560 is it's just not gonna work. 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:48.760 It's not gonna work. There's one one reason for that. 0:01:49.480 --> 0:01:55.920 Yeah. 0:01:56.000 --> 0:02:00.920 All right, So we're back and we're talking about part two. 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:03.920 In the end of part one, Antonio Salazar had established 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:07.360 his new state and established a secret police force with 0:02:07.440 --> 0:02:11.360 a torture prison that occasionally had to deal with noise 0:02:11.520 --> 0:02:15.800 ordnance violations in allow to allow yeah, a little loud, 0:02:15.880 --> 0:02:17.400 a little loud. They had to quiet it down a 0:02:17.400 --> 0:02:17.799 little bit. 0:02:18.080 --> 0:02:21.120 Can you just bring it a little Yeah on the torture. 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:24.760 Guys, we love the torture prison. We're yimbi's when it 0:02:24.800 --> 0:02:27.600 comes to torture prisons. But they have to abide by 0:02:27.680 --> 0:02:29.400 like the neighborhood noise ordinances. 0:02:29.520 --> 0:02:31.120 Yeah, yeah, we have quiet hours. 0:02:31.200 --> 0:02:34.280 Yeah we've got quiet hours. No, no torturing after nine pm. 0:02:34.320 --> 0:02:35.400 Come on, how hard is that? 0:02:35.440 --> 0:02:36.040 You know this? 0:02:36.480 --> 0:02:41.160 Yeah? So Salazar's first actions after coming to power are 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:45.480 all focused on returning some sort of financial stability to Portugal. Now, 0:02:45.639 --> 0:02:48.480 I don't mean to confuse this with prosperity or even 0:02:48.520 --> 0:02:52.280 the kind of fraudulent economic boom that the Nazis manufactured 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:56.600 after Hitler's return. Right, Portugal never really thrives to a 0:02:56.639 --> 0:03:00.720 massive extent during Salazar's reign. It will remain, per capita, 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:03.480 one of the poorest nations in Europe. But the economy 0:03:03.560 --> 0:03:07.880 stops cycling right where's there's these deep troughs and these recoveries. 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:10.839 It kind of stays on an even keel. And even 0:03:10.880 --> 0:03:13.720 though that's still not very good for most of the people, 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:16.519 there's a lot more stability. So, first off, the people 0:03:16.600 --> 0:03:19.720 with money, the capitalist class, are a lot happier because 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:23.360 stability means you can make predictable investments and whatnot and 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:26.959 get predictable returns. And the regular people at least aren't 0:03:26.960 --> 0:03:31.000 dealing with these sudden, drastic downturns every couple of years 0:03:31.080 --> 0:03:33.800 or whatever. Right, and so things are a lot more 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:37.960 stable now. This allows him One of his first measures 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:40.920 taken in office was to take and he's you know, 0:03:40.960 --> 0:03:43.600 Salasar isn't coming out. He launches an austerity program, a 0:03:43.680 --> 0:03:47.120 very radical, cut to the bone austerity program. And this 0:03:47.200 --> 0:03:50.320 is not entirely his own devising. There have been recommendations 0:03:50.360 --> 0:03:53.080 the League of Nations had made to Portugal, and he 0:03:53.200 --> 0:03:57.360 takes those recommendations. And under this austerity program, the poor 0:03:57.400 --> 0:04:00.680 and the peasant classes in Portugal suffer mightily. And again 0:04:00.720 --> 0:04:03.440 that should tell you. Despite a lot of the sympathies 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:05.960 between him and you know, Hitler and whatnot, this is 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:08.040 not a populist movement, right. 0:04:08.480 --> 0:04:10.600 Woodrow Wilson blew it right. 0:04:11.040 --> 0:04:14.720 Yeah, he really did. The League of Nations just about 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:17.400 as big a fuck up as it could possibly have been, 0:04:18.560 --> 0:04:21.400 despite being a much cooler name than the United Nations. 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:23.720 Who wouldn't rather be in a league talk about a one. 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:24.599 To eighty on that guy? 0:04:24.960 --> 0:04:26.120 Oh boy, yes. 0:04:26.120 --> 0:04:28.040 Like we're not going to talk to anybody. But also 0:04:28.080 --> 0:04:29.240 what if we had a justice. 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:32.400 Leagbe but we should, we should have like an international order. Yeah. 0:04:32.640 --> 0:04:35.680 So he's able to balance the budget, right, which makes 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:39.200 him popular among the people who are holding power, who 0:04:39.240 --> 0:04:41.760 see this as the fastest route to stability. As the 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:44.520 writer Alan K. Smith noted, this was often a brutal 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:46.000 process for regular people. 0:04:46.680 --> 0:04:46.960 Quote. 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:49.920 The principles which guided him were the elimination of wastefulness, 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:52.760 the reduction of spending to a minimum, and complete control 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:56.280 over every aspect of life which involved governmental expenditure. No 0:04:56.320 --> 0:04:59.040 matter how pressing their needs. Areas such as rural development, 0:04:59.080 --> 0:05:01.279 the health services, and IT education would have to wait 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:04.919 until the necessary surplus was at hand. So Salazar is like, 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:09.120 fuck you, I'm not doing anything to help people until 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:12.760 we've got enough spare money to afford it. Right, Like, 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:14.719 we're not going to go into debt just to take 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:17.400 care of people. Like we're going to cut it to 0:05:17.400 --> 0:05:20.680 the and whatever suffering the peasantry has to make. It's 0:05:20.720 --> 0:05:22.919 necessary as long as we can kind of keep the 0:05:23.000 --> 0:05:25.440 economy and the wealthy on track. 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:27.159 Right. Rude, it's a little rude. 0:05:27.240 --> 0:05:28.039 It's kind of a dick. 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:29.920 It's a rudy Huxtable, we like to say. 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:32.640 And he's not at all. He's not even going to 0:05:32.680 --> 0:05:35.720 play at being like I'm speaking for the people. I'm 0:05:35.760 --> 0:05:38.200 the representative of the people. You know, the people like, 0:05:38.440 --> 0:05:41.520 there's not even that kind of like that, like guys, right, 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.360 he would state directly that his philosophy of leadership was 0:05:44.440 --> 0:05:47.599 quote the Portuguese must be treated as children too much, 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:51.120 too often would spoil them. He added quote. 0:05:50.880 --> 0:05:52.039 I say the same thing though. 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:54.640 Yeah, you're always saying that, and it really pisses off 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:55.760 our Portuguese listeners. 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:57.800 People know this about me and the Portuguese. 0:05:57.880 --> 0:06:00.719 Yeah, yeah, those wind bags quote from one of our 0:06:00.760 --> 0:06:05.400 other bastards. The truth is that I am profoundly anti parliamentarian. 0:06:05.480 --> 0:06:09.200 I hate the speeches, the verbosity, and the flowery, meaningless interpolations, 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:11.920 the way we waste passion, not around any great idea, 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:14.880 but just around futilities, nothingness from the point of view 0:06:14.880 --> 0:06:18.760 of the national good. So he's very much this like, look, 0:06:18.920 --> 0:06:21.240 I'm not giving anybody anything, but at least I'm not 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:25.160 like grand standing about some bullshit while failing to deliver, right, Like, 0:06:25.560 --> 0:06:29.479 I'm an asshole and I'm not handing you anything nice, 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:32.800 but I'm also keeping the economy from crashing, right Like. 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:35.880 That's his argument for why he should stay in power, 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:40.120 and it works surprisingly well. Part of why is that 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:43.000 while he gets the credit for his economic policies and 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:46.560 the way that they do work. He's almost invisible outside 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:49.600 of them. He is not doing mass rallies. People are 0:06:49.600 --> 0:06:51.920 not marching in the streets as he likes, stands in 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:54.120 a reviewing stand and gives some sort of weird little 0:06:54.160 --> 0:06:58.680 salute he invented. He'd avoids any mass public displays, right, 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:03.400 which leads to as arrant belief. Internationally, people will say that, oh, Portugal, 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:06.479 they got so lucky. They have a dictatorship without a dictator, 0:07:06.880 --> 0:07:10.320 which is nonsense. That's not what's happening. He's very much 0:07:10.360 --> 0:07:13.680 a dictator. But there's this desire, especially from a lot 0:07:13.720 --> 0:07:18.120 of international capitalist conservatives, to be like, oh, Portugal has 0:07:18.160 --> 0:07:20.440 really figured it out. They've got all the benefits of 0:07:20.440 --> 0:07:23.880 a Hitler without having Hitler. You know what, maybe we 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:28.240 could do what they're doing right, And that's not the case. 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:32.280 That's not an accurate way to describe Salazar's regime or 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:35.800 any regime that's ever existed. The reality is that very 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:40.920 few of the twentieth centuries authoritarians exercised more direct control 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:44.560 over their national economy or government policy than Antonio Salazar. 0:07:44.960 --> 0:07:47.680 You could argue Salazar is much more of a dictator 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:50.040 in the direct literal sense that even Hitler was right. 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:53.680 Hitler is a delegator, right, He has his things, he's 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:57.360 interested in. He mostly lets other people handle most things, 0:07:57.400 --> 0:08:00.000 in part because you can, like defray blame for shit 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:03.400 it that way. Salazar is kind of the opposite of 0:08:03.440 --> 0:08:05.320 a lot of these guys, and that he's all about 0:08:05.480 --> 0:08:08.920 direct personal control of especially economic policy, but a lot 0:08:08.920 --> 0:08:11.520 of other government policies. And he doesn't want to do 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:13.880 the other crap, right. He doesn't want to do the 0:08:13.880 --> 0:08:16.640 big reviewing stand marches, he doesn't want to do the 0:08:16.680 --> 0:08:21.000 military adventurism. So it's less accurate to say Portugal is 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:24.040 a dictatorship without a dictator, and more Salazar is a 0:08:24.080 --> 0:08:26.400 dictator without a cult of personality. 0:08:26.880 --> 0:08:28.480 Right. What a waste? 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:30.800 Yeah, what a waste. You could add so much more 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:33.560 fun with it. Man, Oh my god. You know Hitler 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:35.880 had his flair. Where's your Salazar flair? 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:37.000 Come on an awesome man? 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:40.040 Yeah? Blew it tragic, especially with a name as cool 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:42.679 as Salazar. Oh my god, it's a good name. It's 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:46.800 a solid dictator name. Yeah, man, what a waste, but 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:50.240 it is better for political stability, and as dictator, Salazar 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:52.800 is all about stability, and this is going to be 0:08:52.840 --> 0:08:55.839 the thing that ultimately saves him where his peers get 0:08:55.920 --> 0:08:59.600 led to ruin. Right. Unlike Hitler, he doesn't whatever he 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:02.920 says about helping return Portugal to greatness, He's not really 0:09:02.920 --> 0:09:06.920 interested in returning his nation to some false prelapsarian version 0:09:06.960 --> 0:09:10.080 of greatness, or even erasing the humiliations of the past. 0:09:10.480 --> 0:09:13.680 He wants to bring stability and then hold the line, right, 0:09:13.840 --> 0:09:15.440 That's the kind of guy he is. 0:09:15.760 --> 0:09:18.040 Also, that's the best song by Toto. 0:09:18.400 --> 0:09:20.360 That is the best song by Toto. Hold the line 0:09:20.400 --> 0:09:23.800 and Salazar would have agreed with you. And I think, well, no. No. Seven. 0:09:23.960 --> 0:09:26.040 He passes in seventy four, so he couldn't have heard total. 0:09:26.080 --> 0:09:27.440 I think he would have liked Africa to be one 0:09:27.480 --> 0:09:31.239 hundred pou liked it, Unfortunately history one of his downfalls 0:09:31.280 --> 0:09:34.520 is that he likes Africa way too much. Yeah. Yeah, 0:09:34.679 --> 0:09:37.720 he's just like all these other casuals that think Africa 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:38.839 is the best song by Toto. 0:09:39.000 --> 0:09:41.240 I know, I know. That's his big problem. The fucking 0:09:41.440 --> 0:09:44.319 casual Toto fan is what he is. That's what brings 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:47.040 about the revolution against him is the fact that he's 0:09:47.040 --> 0:09:49.200 a fake Toto fan. And everyone knows it. 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:51.800 Yeah, they're like, come on, man, the revolution isn't always 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:52.240 on time. 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:56.040 No no, no again, no no no, That's why we 0:09:56.120 --> 0:09:57.319 brought you in, Jeff. 0:09:57.600 --> 0:09:59.640 That's why I get brought in for all the hottest, 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:04.319 hottest takes on Toto current musical hits, because I. 0:10:04.240 --> 0:10:06.079 Only know how to make two jokes about Toto and 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:12.720 we already ran through them. So Salazar, he's the only 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:15.560 dictator kind of in this period who is going to 0:10:15.640 --> 0:10:20.160 really perfectly jink and run and like avoid kind of 0:10:20.200 --> 0:10:23.080 the different sort of dangers of this this moment in 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:24.599 European history. 0:10:25.000 --> 0:10:26.600 The pitfalls, if you will. 0:10:26.400 --> 0:10:28.480 The pitfalls right, Like, he's never going to be an 0:10:28.520 --> 0:10:30.760 invade Russia guy, and he's going to play a big 0:10:30.840 --> 0:10:34.520 role in helping his peer in Spain, Francisco Franco, avoid 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:39.040 some of these same pitfalls. Unfortunately, now Portugal has a 0:10:39.120 --> 0:10:41.920 complex history with Spain. They'd been invaded and occupied in 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:45.320 the past. You know, he's he's super worried, like every 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:47.880 Portuguese leader is that Spain is going to come for 0:10:48.040 --> 0:10:50.880 Portugal at something. Just looking out the blinds, Yeah, look 0:10:50.880 --> 0:10:53.160 at out the blinds, being like a Spain out there. Fuck, 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:56.040 they always they're doing out there. So you've got this 0:10:56.120 --> 0:10:59.000 civil war that get started in Spain between these Republicans 0:10:59.000 --> 0:11:02.880 and Franco, and Salazar sees the Republic, which looks like 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:04.920 it's going to win at first, as a threat to 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:08.280 his continued independence. Right, if the Republic wins the war, 0:11:08.800 --> 0:11:11.960 maybe they'll come for us, and then maybe my regime 0:11:12.080 --> 0:11:15.840 is doomed and Portuguese independence is doomed, and Salazar extends 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:19.240 his support to Franco. Right, so he backs Franco. During 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:22.120 a crucial early stage in the civil war, he allows 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:25.240 Germany in Italy to use his territory to transfer troops 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:28.520 and materiel to Franco's army, which is a critical aspect 0:11:28.640 --> 0:11:31.079 of like how Franco is able to get enough military 0:11:31.120 --> 0:11:35.960 aid to win. Salazar allows Portuguese volunteers to fight for 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:39.040 the fascists in Spain, and he uses his secret police 0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:42.440 and security forces to raid and arrest Republican sympathizers and 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:46.640 refugees in his own territory. And these are the years 0:11:46.679 --> 0:11:51.040 because he's letting Italy and Germany in, because he's helping Franco, 0:11:51.520 --> 0:11:53.960 these are the years in which his movement most resembles 0:11:53.960 --> 0:11:57.600 the other fascist movements in Europe. Salazar deliberately cribs from 0:11:57.679 --> 0:12:00.760 Mussolini and Hitler in particular, per right up in the 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.319 New York Times quote, he created a youth movement to 0:12:03.400 --> 0:12:06.960 long Hitlarian lines, principally to prepare the younger people for 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:10.000 military service, and the Portuguese Legion, which was dedicated to 0:12:10.040 --> 0:12:14.040 combating internal communism. These organizations with the army proved useful 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:16.400 in putting down a popular outbreak in Lisbon just prior 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:19.600 to World War Two. So not only does he kind 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:22.320 of ally with the fascists in this period, is he 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:25.959 starts putting out these kind of like trappings of fascism 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:27.760 where it's like, well, let's get a youth fighting movement 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:30.520 in the street. We need in addition to the military, 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:34.880 we need these these civilian combat organizations, these paramilitaries that 0:12:34.920 --> 0:12:37.760 are sort of given a free pass by the police 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:40.240 to crack down on the left and to stop them 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:42.640 from gaining too much power and overthrowing the government, to 0:12:42.640 --> 0:12:44.600 stop the communists primarily right. 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:46.440 I thought you meant fighting the youth. 0:12:47.240 --> 0:12:49.720 No, no, no, no, he is getting the fighting youth 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:52.600 together right under his back, right like that, that's his 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:55.440 plan during this period, right, there's obviously the youth who 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:58.440 are organizing on behalf of communism and you know, for 0:12:58.559 --> 0:13:00.800 a return to the republic. These are the people that 0:13:00.840 --> 0:13:03.000 he's having a secret police go after, and that he's 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:08.480 sort of allowing these paramilitaries to fight against. Right now, 0:13:08.559 --> 0:13:10.800 during this period pre World War Two, he's known to 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:13.240 keep a bust of Mussolini in his office and he'll 0:13:13.280 --> 0:13:15.720 regularly ask his hitler during the height of his power. 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:18.600 But he's also pretty clear in his own statements about 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:21.400 what he sees is the difference between his fascist allies 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:23.320 and his own new state regime. 0:13:23.679 --> 0:13:24.599 Quote. 0:13:24.679 --> 0:13:28.199 Now, obviously our dictatorship is similar to the fascist dictatorship 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:30.680 and its strengthening of authority in the war, in which 0:13:30.679 --> 0:13:34.160 it declares on certain democratic principles, and its nationalist character 0:13:34.440 --> 0:13:37.120 and its maintenance of the social order. It is different, however, 0:13:37.160 --> 0:13:40.439 in its methods of renovation. The fascist dictatorship is leaning 0:13:40.480 --> 0:13:45.360 towards a pagan Caesarism, right, and that's what Salazar doesn't want. 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:47.680 For one thing, he is a Catholic, and he makes 0:13:47.720 --> 0:13:51.439 an alliance with the Catholic Church, right where we will 0:13:51.480 --> 0:13:53.440 allow the Catholic Church will bring back a lot of 0:13:53.440 --> 0:13:56.000 these powers that had been stripped from it to provide 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.680 for like the social safety net, and will also institute 0:13:59.679 --> 0:14:01.840 all these laws that are very friendly to the way 0:14:01.920 --> 0:14:04.640 the Catholic Church wants things to be run. And that's 0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:07.160 very different from like Germany, which is, you know, the 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.439 Nazi regime is an anti Catholic regime in some ways, right, 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:13.360 they have to co opt Catholicism, but they never are 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:15.839 really comfortable with it because the church is another center 0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:19.160 of power. And Salazar is okay with there being another 0:14:19.200 --> 0:14:21.840 center of power as long as it helps kind of 0:14:21.880 --> 0:14:24.640 take away from his burden. He sees this as like 0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:28.760 a worthwhile thing. And he's also just a believer in Catholicism, 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:31.840 and so this is why he's very consciously like we were, 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:34.720 will take some things that the fascists are doing, but like, 0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:38.680 I'm not this weird kind of like pagan esoteric thing 0:14:38.760 --> 0:14:41.400 that Hitler is like that seems strange to me, and 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:43.480 I don't want to go too far down that road 0:14:43.520 --> 0:14:45.280 because it's a lot of work and I feel like 0:14:45.360 --> 0:14:47.840 it's going to get this fucker in trouble, right, Yeah, 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:49.120 very he's very smart. 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:52.400 It's not hard to read the writing on the Wall 0:14:52.600 --> 0:14:58.280 and Y being like, yeah, we should take over like everything. Yeah, 0:14:58.360 --> 0:14:59.800 I mean it should just go Ova and take all 0:14:59.880 --> 0:15:00.440 with all. 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:05.920 The Soviet yah, oh the kickings and door. Yeah. Sealizar's 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:07.640 like that seems like a lot of work. Take it 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:09.800 over the Soviet Union. For one thing. There's like thirty 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:11.000 Portuguese people. 0:15:10.920 --> 0:15:14.400 Like the idea that he's just so like chill with 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:15.320 his little pocket. 0:15:15.640 --> 0:15:17.640 He's he's content with what he has. 0:15:17.800 --> 0:15:20.920 It's just like it's a project for him. He's just man, yeah, 0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:23.680 you got to get Portugal movement. Man, we gotta we gotta. 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:26.680 Yeah, we've got to fix this up and we don't 0:15:26.760 --> 0:15:30.280 need He's also and as we'll talk about, Portugal owns 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:33.120 a lot of Africa, right, he's not he's not content 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:35.320 with a tiny amount of the world. But he doesn't 0:15:35.360 --> 0:15:38.320 want to like expand massively. He's trying to keep a 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:42.240 hold on what they've got, right, so he doesn't go 0:15:42.360 --> 0:15:45.200 too far into the kind of delusions that are going 0:15:45.240 --> 0:15:47.000 to lead Hitler and Mussolini to ruin. 0:15:47.840 --> 0:15:50.360 And also he's not doing a racism or an anti semitism, 0:15:50.400 --> 0:15:50.600 is he. 0:15:51.160 --> 0:15:54.560 I mean, he's anti Semitic and like by ours, but 0:15:54.600 --> 0:15:57.400 it's not like a governing principle, right, And he's. 0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:59.680 Nineteen thirty anti Semitic, which is just. 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:03.360 Yeah, and in this you know, after the war, there 0:16:03.400 --> 0:16:06.680 will be a Portuguese colonial war that's very racist, right, 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:11.200 But that's not the guiding light initially of his regime. 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:14.360 It's more something that makes sense as time goes on 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:16.680 and they wind up in these colonial conflicts, Like the 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:19.760 racism kind of follows naturally, but there's not this He 0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:21.480 doesn't come to power with like We're going to wipe 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:23.560 out this racial group in order to fix Portugal. 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:23.760 Right. 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:26.640 That's never a part of his politics, you know. And 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:29.640 so that's a big difference between like the Nazis right. 0:16:31.000 --> 0:16:31.240 Now. 0:16:31.360 --> 0:16:34.640 Salazar is also despite the fact that he is allied 0:16:34.640 --> 0:16:37.520 with Franco and really helps him take power in Spain, 0:16:37.960 --> 0:16:40.880 he's never he never trusts Franco all that much. Tom 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:43.920 Gallagher's biographer describes them as him as having a wary 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:48.360 association with Franco's regime. And while Franco restores the monarchy 0:16:48.400 --> 0:16:52.240 in Spain, Salasar never gives serious consideration towards return to 0:16:52.280 --> 0:16:55.000 the monarchy, right, because that's too much of a compromise 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:57.800 with power for him. Right of his own power. And 0:16:58.760 --> 0:17:02.320 this political alliance that defines his regime in this period 0:17:02.800 --> 0:17:05.520 isn't the pure result of a populist fascist party winning 0:17:05.520 --> 0:17:08.679 the struggle for power. Per Gallagher quote, his formula was 0:17:08.720 --> 0:17:12.080 to create a ruling alliance of conservatives, some moderate liberals 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:15.159 and a few nationalists ideologues kept in being by his 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:19.399 political agility and guaranteed ultimately by the armed forces. So 0:17:19.600 --> 0:17:23.160 it's just much more of this compromise regime that he's 0:17:23.200 --> 0:17:25.280 willing to make because he's just kind of he's a 0:17:25.320 --> 0:17:28.639 pragmatic guy. Now, this is ultimately what will save his 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.439 regime and Franco's regime, you know, at least there's an 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:34.320 argument that it saves Franco's regime during the Second World 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:38.879 War because Franco only wins his civil war because of 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:41.520 the help he gets from the continental fascist powers, right 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:44.280 like he gets very famously, the German Air Force is 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:46.880 going to bomb a bunch of places for Franco. Right 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:50.720 And despite the fact that you would think and Hitler 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:53.520 had kind of expected, well, obviously, once I wind up 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:56.720 in a big war, Spain is going to back me, right, 0:17:57.320 --> 0:18:00.399 and that Franco never does this. He refuses, he doesn't 0:18:00.560 --> 0:18:02.800 go on the side of the Allies, right, he doesn't 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:06.560 outright betray Germany, but he never throws his hat into 0:18:06.560 --> 0:18:09.440 the ring with the Axis once the fighting begins in earnest. 0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:12.399 The reasons for this are complex, and they have a 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:15.800 lot to do with Portugal's traditionally warm relationship with Great Britain, 0:18:15.800 --> 0:18:19.520 because Salazar gets a lot of credit for stopping Franco 0:18:19.760 --> 0:18:22.520 from going all in on the fascists during this war 0:18:22.560 --> 0:18:25.160 and from like outright allying with them. There's a lot 0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:27.520 of debate as to how much credit how much of 0:18:27.520 --> 0:18:29.840 this was Franco just kind of recognizing this is a 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:33.119 bigger risk than I want to tank. But Salazar, at 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:35.119 least according to one version of the story, is a 0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:37.439 major part of what keeps Franco out. And part of 0:18:37.480 --> 0:18:39.919 why Salazar is like this is even though he's got 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:42.320 a lot of sympathies with the fascists and a good 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:45.600 relationship with them, he still has a good relationship with 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:49.159 Great Britain, who had been Portugal's traditional ally and so 0:18:49.720 --> 0:18:52.399 Salazar never sees even though he gets he gets lumped 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:54.840 in as a fascist in this period, he never sees 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:58.359 politics in simple terms of fascist versus anti fascist right, 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:02.760 or even authoritarian verse democratic. Instead, he acts based on 0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:06.479 a much simpler logical rubric, which is that Portugal small 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:09.639 and we don't have any ability to project military force 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:11.480 in a way that matters on the level of a 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:14.199 great power. So we have to be careful and we 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:17.520 can't piss off anyone too much, right or over committed. 0:19:17.640 --> 0:19:21.359 He's not gonna do. He would never back the fascists militarily, 0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:24.159 because like, what am I gonna do send soldiers to 0:19:24.240 --> 0:19:28.320 fucking Russia. I'm gonna have Portuguese truths fighting and fucking Russia. 0:19:28.560 --> 0:19:30.240 What the hell is that gonna do? 0:19:30.600 --> 0:19:30.760 Right? 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:32.000 I would, but I'm built different. 0:19:32.240 --> 0:19:34.719 You would, yeah, but you would go yeah, But you know, 0:19:35.520 --> 0:19:37.520 he's probably influenced here by the fact that he just 0:19:37.600 --> 0:19:40.360 watched the Republicans burn a lot of their goodwill by 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:42.280 getting involved in World War One, and he's like, I'm 0:19:42.320 --> 0:19:44.840 just not gonna do that, Like that could never be me. 0:19:45.080 --> 0:19:45.800 Built different. 0:19:46.040 --> 0:19:48.640