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Speaker 1: Also media, Hey, everybody, it's Behind the Bastards the podcast

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Speaker 1: that you know what it is because you're listening to it,

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Speaker 1: and you're listening to part two of our episodes of

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Speaker 1: Antonio Salazar, so you're probably not tuning into the show

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Speaker 1: for the first time, going, I wonder what this series is.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to click on an episode. I got a

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Speaker 1: guy I've never heard of that's that's clearly labeled as

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Speaker 1: part two. Like, no one who would do that?

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Speaker 2: Are tuning in? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Exactly exactly who would do like? No one?

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Speaker 3: No, I liked it.

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Speaker 1: It's okay, it's okay. The water bottle, so our guest today,

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Speaker 1: Jeff may rhymed, but I didn't mean for it to look.

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Speaker 2: Man, I have a very rhymable name.

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Speaker 1: You do you do?

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Speaker 2: It's useful.

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Speaker 1: It's like it was useful in this exactly one instance.

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Speaker 2: It's a month like people love. Some teachers saw my

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Speaker 2: name and they never stopped.

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Speaker 1: No, no, they Yeah, that you can vamp on that

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Speaker 1: for solid fifteen minutes of what's supposed to be math class.

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Speaker 1: Was great, Jeff may If you were Jeff April, we

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Speaker 1: would not have had you on the show. Oh I

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Speaker 1: get it, fat Yeah, absolutely not. Jeff Jeff June. Maybe

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Speaker 1: that that actually has a kind of nice ring to it,

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Speaker 1: you know, yeah, like June on the show. Yeah, Jeff July. No,

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Speaker 1: it's still illiterative. But I don't like it. I don't

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Speaker 1: know why.

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Speaker 2: I almost stated a girl named Mazie.

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Speaker 1: She went by mazy May.

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Speaker 2: Oh my god, and then she quickly pumped.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no, yeah, you can't get in. You can't get

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Speaker 1: too serious with that one.

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Speaker 2: I was like, but come on, I was like, this

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Speaker 2: is it's just not gonna work.

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Speaker 1: It's not gonna work. There's one one reason for that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: All right, So we're back and we're talking about part two.

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Speaker 1: In the end of part one, Antonio Salazar had established

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Speaker 1: his new state and established a secret police force with

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Speaker 1: a torture prison that occasionally had to deal with noise

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Speaker 1: ordnance violations in allow to allow yeah, a little loud,

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Speaker 1: a little loud. They had to quiet it down a

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Speaker 1: little bit.

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Speaker 2: Can you just bring it a little Yeah on the torture.

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Speaker 1: Guys, we love the torture prison. We're yimbi's when it

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Speaker 1: comes to torture prisons. But they have to abide by

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Speaker 1: like the neighborhood noise ordinances.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we have quiet hours.

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Speaker 1: Yeah we've got quiet hours. No, no torturing after nine pm.

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Speaker 1: Come on, how hard is that?

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Speaker 2: You know this?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? So Salazar's first actions after coming to power are

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Speaker 1: all focused on returning some sort of financial stability to Portugal. Now,

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Speaker 1: I don't mean to confuse this with prosperity or even

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Speaker 1: the kind of fraudulent economic boom that the Nazis manufactured

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Speaker 1: after Hitler's return. Right, Portugal never really thrives to a

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Speaker 1: massive extent during Salazar's reign. It will remain, per capita,

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Speaker 1: one of the poorest nations in Europe. But the economy

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Speaker 1: stops cycling right where's there's these deep troughs and these recoveries.

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Speaker 1: It kind of stays on an even keel. And even

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Speaker 1: though that's still not very good for most of the people,

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Speaker 1: there's a lot more stability. So, first off, the people

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Speaker 1: with money, the capitalist class, are a lot happier because

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Speaker 1: stability means you can make predictable investments and whatnot and

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Speaker 1: get predictable returns. And the regular people at least aren't

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Speaker 1: dealing with these sudden, drastic downturns every couple of years

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Speaker 1: or whatever. Right, and so things are a lot more

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Speaker 1: stable now. This allows him One of his first measures

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Speaker 1: taken in office was to take and he's you know,

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Speaker 1: Salasar isn't coming out. He launches an austerity program, a

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Speaker 1: very radical, cut to the bone austerity program. And this

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Speaker 1: is not entirely his own devising. There have been recommendations

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Speaker 1: the League of Nations had made to Portugal, and he

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Speaker 1: takes those recommendations. And under this austerity program, the poor

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Speaker 1: and the peasant classes in Portugal suffer mightily. And again

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Speaker 1: that should tell you. Despite a lot of the sympathies

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Speaker 1: between him and you know, Hitler and whatnot, this is

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Speaker 1: not a populist movement, right.

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Speaker 2: Woodrow Wilson blew it right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he really did. The League of Nations just about

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Speaker 1: as big a fuck up as it could possibly have been,

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Speaker 1: despite being a much cooler name than the United Nations.

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Speaker 1: Who wouldn't rather be in a league talk about a one.

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Speaker 2: To eighty on that guy?

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Speaker 1: Oh boy, yes.

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Speaker 2: Like we're not going to talk to anybody. But also

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Speaker 2: what if we had a justice.

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Speaker 1: Leagbe but we should, we should have like an international order. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So he's able to balance the budget, right, which makes

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Speaker 1: him popular among the people who are holding power, who

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Speaker 1: see this as the fastest route to stability. As the

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Speaker 1: writer Alan K. Smith noted, this was often a brutal

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Speaker 1: process for regular people.

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Speaker 2: Quote.

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Speaker 1: The principles which guided him were the elimination of wastefulness,

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Speaker 1: the reduction of spending to a minimum, and complete control

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Speaker 1: over every aspect of life which involved governmental expenditure. No

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Speaker 1: matter how pressing their needs. Areas such as rural development,

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Speaker 1: the health services, and IT education would have to wait

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Speaker 1: until the necessary surplus was at hand. So Salazar is like,

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Speaker 1: fuck you, I'm not doing anything to help people until

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Speaker 1: we've got enough spare money to afford it. Right, Like,

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Speaker 1: we're not going to go into debt just to take

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Speaker 1: care of people. Like we're going to cut it to

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Speaker 1: the and whatever suffering the peasantry has to make. It's

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Speaker 1: necessary as long as we can kind of keep the

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Speaker 1: economy and the wealthy on track.

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Speaker 2: Right. Rude, it's a little rude.

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Speaker 1: It's kind of a dick.

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Speaker 2: It's a rudy Huxtable, we like to say.

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Speaker 1: And he's not at all. He's not even going to

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Speaker 1: play at being like I'm speaking for the people. I'm

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Speaker 1: the representative of the people. You know, the people like,

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Speaker 1: there's not even that kind of like that, like guys, right,

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Speaker 1: he would state directly that his philosophy of leadership was

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Speaker 1: quote the Portuguese must be treated as children too much,

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Speaker 1: too often would spoil them. He added quote.

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Speaker 2: I say the same thing though.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're always saying that, and it really pisses off

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Speaker 1: our Portuguese listeners.

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Speaker 2: People know this about me and the Portuguese.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, those wind bags quote from one of our

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Speaker 1: other bastards. The truth is that I am profoundly anti parliamentarian.

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Speaker 1: I hate the speeches, the verbosity, and the flowery, meaningless interpolations,

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Speaker 1: the way we waste passion, not around any great idea,

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Speaker 1: but just around futilities, nothingness from the point of view

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Speaker 1: of the national good. So he's very much this like, look,

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Speaker 1: I'm not giving anybody anything, but at least I'm not

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Speaker 1: like grand standing about some bullshit while failing to deliver, right, Like,

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Speaker 1: I'm an asshole and I'm not handing you anything nice,

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Speaker 1: but I'm also keeping the economy from crashing, right Like.

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Speaker 1: That's his argument for why he should stay in power,

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Speaker 1: and it works surprisingly well. Part of why is that

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Speaker 1: while he gets the credit for his economic policies and

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Speaker 1: the way that they do work. He's almost invisible outside

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Speaker 1: of them. He is not doing mass rallies. People are

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Speaker 1: not marching in the streets as he likes, stands in

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Speaker 1: a reviewing stand and gives some sort of weird little

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Speaker 1: salute he invented. He'd avoids any mass public displays, right,

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Speaker 1: which leads to as arrant belief. Internationally, people will say that, oh, Portugal,

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Speaker 1: they got so lucky. They have a dictatorship without a dictator,

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Speaker 1: which is nonsense. That's not what's happening. He's very much

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Speaker 1: a dictator. But there's this desire, especially from a lot

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Speaker 1: of international capitalist conservatives, to be like, oh, Portugal has

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Speaker 1: really figured it out. They've got all the benefits of

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Speaker 1: a Hitler without having Hitler. You know what, maybe we

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Speaker 1: could do what they're doing right, And that's not the case.

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Speaker 1: That's not an accurate way to describe Salazar's regime or

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Speaker 1: any regime that's ever existed. The reality is that very

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Speaker 1: few of the twentieth centuries authoritarians exercised more direct control

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Speaker 1: over their national economy or government policy than Antonio Salazar.

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Speaker 1: You could argue Salazar is much more of a dictator

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Speaker 1: in the direct literal sense that even Hitler was right.

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Speaker 1: Hitler is a delegator, right, He has his things, he's

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Speaker 1: interested in. He mostly lets other people handle most things,

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Speaker 1: in part because you can, like defray blame for shit

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Speaker 1: it that way. Salazar is kind of the opposite of

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Speaker 1: a lot of these guys, and that he's all about

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Speaker 1: direct personal control of especially economic policy, but a lot

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Speaker 1: of other government policies. And he doesn't want to do

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Speaker 1: the other crap, right. He doesn't want to do the

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Speaker 1: big reviewing stand marches, he doesn't want to do the

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Speaker 1: military adventurism. So it's less accurate to say Portugal is

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Speaker 1: a dictatorship without a dictator, and more Salazar is a

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Speaker 1: dictator without a cult of personality.

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Speaker 2: Right. What a waste?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what a waste. You could add so much more

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Speaker 1: fun with it. Man, Oh my god. You know Hitler

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Speaker 1: had his flair. Where's your Salazar flair?

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Speaker 2: Come on an awesome man?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Blew it tragic, especially with a name as cool

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Speaker 1: as Salazar. Oh my god, it's a good name. It's

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Speaker 1: a solid dictator name. Yeah, man, what a waste, but

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Speaker 1: it is better for political stability, and as dictator, Salazar

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Speaker 1: is all about stability, and this is going to be

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Speaker 1: the thing that ultimately saves him where his peers get

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Speaker 1: led to ruin. Right. Unlike Hitler, he doesn't whatever he

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Speaker 1: says about helping return Portugal to greatness, He's not really

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Speaker 1: interested in returning his nation to some false prelapsarian version

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Speaker 1: of greatness, or even erasing the humiliations of the past.

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Speaker 1: He wants to bring stability and then hold the line, right,

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Speaker 1: That's the kind of guy he is.

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Speaker 2: Also, that's the best song by Toto.

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Speaker 1: That is the best song by Toto. Hold the line

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Speaker 1: and Salazar would have agreed with you. And I think, well, no. No. Seven.

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Speaker 1: He passes in seventy four, so he couldn't have heard total.

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Speaker 2: I think he would have liked Africa to be one

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Speaker 2: hundred pou liked it, Unfortunately history one of his downfalls

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Speaker 2: is that he likes Africa way too much. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: he's just like all these other casuals that think Africa

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Speaker 2: is the best song by Toto.

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Speaker 1: I know, I know. That's his big problem. The fucking

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Speaker 1: casual Toto fan is what he is. That's what brings

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Speaker 1: about the revolution against him is the fact that he's

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Speaker 1: a fake Toto fan. And everyone knows it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, they're like, come on, man, the revolution isn't always

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Speaker 2: on time.

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Speaker 1: No no, no again, no no no, That's why we

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Speaker 1: brought you in, Jeff.

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Speaker 2: That's why I get brought in for all the hottest,

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Speaker 2: hottest takes on Toto current musical hits, because I.

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Speaker 1: Only know how to make two jokes about Toto and

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Speaker 1: we already ran through them. So Salazar, he's the only

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Speaker 1: dictator kind of in this period who is going to

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Speaker 1: really perfectly jink and run and like avoid kind of

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Speaker 1: the different sort of dangers of this this moment in

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Speaker 1: European history.

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Speaker 2: The pitfalls, if you will.

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Speaker 1: The pitfalls right, Like, he's never going to be an

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Speaker 1: invade Russia guy, and he's going to play a big

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Speaker 1: role in helping his peer in Spain, Francisco Franco, avoid

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Speaker 1: some of these same pitfalls. Unfortunately, now Portugal has a

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Speaker 1: complex history with Spain. They'd been invaded and occupied in

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Speaker 1: the past. You know, he's he's super worried, like every

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Speaker 1: Portuguese leader is that Spain is going to come for

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Speaker 1: Portugal at something. Just looking out the blinds, Yeah, look

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Speaker 1: at out the blinds, being like a Spain out there. Fuck,

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Speaker 1: they always they're doing out there. So you've got this

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Speaker 1: civil war that get started in Spain between these Republicans

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Speaker 1: and Franco, and Salazar sees the Republic, which looks like

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Speaker 1: it's going to win at first, as a threat to

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Speaker 1: his continued independence. Right, if the Republic wins the war,

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Speaker 1: maybe they'll come for us, and then maybe my regime

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Speaker 1: is doomed and Portuguese independence is doomed, and Salazar extends

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Speaker 1: his support to Franco. Right, so he backs Franco. During

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Speaker 1: a crucial early stage in the civil war, he allows

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Speaker 1: Germany in Italy to use his territory to transfer troops

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Speaker 1: and materiel to Franco's army, which is a critical aspect

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Speaker 1: of like how Franco is able to get enough military

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Speaker 1: aid to win. Salazar allows Portuguese volunteers to fight for

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Speaker 1: the fascists in Spain, and he uses his secret police

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Speaker 1: and security forces to raid and arrest Republican sympathizers and

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Speaker 1: refugees in his own territory. And these are the years

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Speaker 1: because he's letting Italy and Germany in, because he's helping Franco,

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Speaker 1: these are the years in which his movement most resembles

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Speaker 1: the other fascist movements in Europe. Salazar deliberately cribs from

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Speaker 1: Mussolini and Hitler in particular, per right up in the

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Speaker 1: New York Times quote, he created a youth movement to

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Speaker 1: long Hitlarian lines, principally to prepare the younger people for

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Speaker 1: military service, and the Portuguese Legion, which was dedicated to

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Speaker 1: combating internal communism. These organizations with the army proved useful

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Speaker 1: in putting down a popular outbreak in Lisbon just prior

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Speaker 1: to World War Two. So not only does he kind

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Speaker 1: of ally with the fascists in this period, is he

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Speaker 1: starts putting out these kind of like trappings of fascism

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Speaker 1: where it's like, well, let's get a youth fighting movement

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Speaker 1: in the street. We need in addition to the military,

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Speaker 1: we need these these civilian combat organizations, these paramilitaries that

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Speaker 1: are sort of given a free pass by the police

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Speaker 1: to crack down on the left and to stop them

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Speaker 1: from gaining too much power and overthrowing the government, to

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Speaker 1: stop the communists primarily right.

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Speaker 2: I thought you meant fighting the youth.

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Speaker 1: No, no, no, no, he is getting the fighting youth

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Speaker 1: together right under his back, right like that, that's his

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Speaker 1: plan during this period, right, there's obviously the youth who

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Speaker 1: are organizing on behalf of communism and you know, for

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Speaker 1: a return to the republic. These are the people that

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Speaker 1: he's having a secret police go after, and that he's

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Speaker 1: sort of allowing these paramilitaries to fight against. Right now,

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Speaker 1: during this period pre World War Two, he's known to

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Speaker 1: keep a bust of Mussolini in his office and he'll

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Speaker 1: regularly ask his hitler during the height of his power.

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Speaker 1: But he's also pretty clear in his own statements about

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Speaker 1: what he sees is the difference between his fascist allies

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Speaker 1: and his own new state regime.

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Speaker 2: Quote.

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Speaker 1: Now, obviously our dictatorship is similar to the fascist dictatorship

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Speaker 1: and its strengthening of authority in the war, in which

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Speaker 1: it declares on certain democratic principles, and its nationalist character

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Speaker 1: and its maintenance of the social order. It is different, however,

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Speaker 1: in its methods of renovation. The fascist dictatorship is leaning

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Speaker 1: towards a pagan Caesarism, right, and that's what Salazar doesn't want.

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Speaker 1: For one thing, he is a Catholic, and he makes

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Speaker 1: an alliance with the Catholic Church, right where we will

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Speaker 1: allow the Catholic Church will bring back a lot of

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Speaker 1: these powers that had been stripped from it to provide

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Speaker 1: for like the social safety net, and will also institute

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Speaker 1: all these laws that are very friendly to the way

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Speaker 1: the Catholic Church wants things to be run. And that's

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Speaker 1: very different from like Germany, which is, you know, the

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Speaker 1: Nazi regime is an anti Catholic regime in some ways, right,

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Speaker 1: they have to co opt Catholicism, but they never are

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Speaker 1: really comfortable with it because the church is another center

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Speaker 1: of power. And Salazar is okay with there being another

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Speaker 1: center of power as long as it helps kind of

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Speaker 1: take away from his burden. He sees this as like

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Speaker 1: a worthwhile thing. And he's also just a believer in Catholicism,

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Speaker 1: and so this is why he's very consciously like we were,

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Speaker 1: will take some things that the fascists are doing, but like,

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Speaker 1: I'm not this weird kind of like pagan esoteric thing

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Speaker 1: that Hitler is like that seems strange to me, and

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Speaker 1: I don't want to go too far down that road

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Speaker 1: because it's a lot of work and I feel like

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Speaker 1: it's going to get this fucker in trouble, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: very he's very smart.

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Speaker 2: It's not hard to read the writing on the Wall

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Speaker 2: and Y being like, yeah, we should take over like everything. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean it should just go Ova and take all

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Speaker 2: with all.

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Speaker 1: The Soviet yah, oh the kickings and door. Yeah. Sealizar's

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Speaker 1: like that seems like a lot of work. Take it

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Speaker 1: over the Soviet Union. For one thing. There's like thirty

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Speaker 1: Portuguese people.

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Speaker 2: Like the idea that he's just so like chill with

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Speaker 2: his little pocket.

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Speaker 1: He's he's content with what he has.

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Speaker 2: It's just like it's a project for him. He's just man, yeah,

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Speaker 2: you got to get Portugal movement. Man, we gotta we gotta.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we've got to fix this up and we don't

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Speaker 1: need He's also and as we'll talk about, Portugal owns

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Speaker 1: a lot of Africa, right, he's not he's not content

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Speaker 1: with a tiny amount of the world. But he doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to like expand massively. He's trying to keep a

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Speaker 1: hold on what they've got, right, so he doesn't go

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Speaker 1: too far into the kind of delusions that are going

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Speaker 1: to lead Hitler and Mussolini to ruin.

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Speaker 2: And also he's not doing a racism or an anti semitism,

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Speaker 2: is he.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he's anti Semitic and like by ours, but

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Speaker 1: it's not like a governing principle, right, And he's.

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Speaker 2: Nineteen thirty anti Semitic, which is just.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and in this you know, after the war, there

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Speaker 1: will be a Portuguese colonial war that's very racist, right,

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Speaker 1: But that's not the guiding light initially of his regime.

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Speaker 1: It's more something that makes sense as time goes on

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Speaker 1: and they wind up in these colonial conflicts, Like the

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Speaker 1: racism kind of follows naturally, but there's not this He

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Speaker 1: doesn't come to power with like We're going to wipe

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Speaker 1: out this racial group in order to fix Portugal.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: That's never a part of his politics, you know. And

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Speaker 1: so that's a big difference between like the Nazis right.

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Speaker 2: Now.

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Speaker 1: Salazar is also despite the fact that he is allied

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Speaker 1: with Franco and really helps him take power in Spain,

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Speaker 1: he's never he never trusts Franco all that much. Tom

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Speaker 1: Gallagher's biographer describes them as him as having a wary

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Speaker 1: association with Franco's regime. And while Franco restores the monarchy

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Speaker 1: in Spain, Salasar never gives serious consideration towards return to

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Speaker 1: the monarchy, right, because that's too much of a compromise

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Speaker 1: with power for him. Right of his own power. And

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Speaker 1: this political alliance that defines his regime in this period

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Speaker 1: isn't the pure result of a populist fascist party winning

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Speaker 1: the struggle for power. Per Gallagher quote, his formula was

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Speaker 1: to create a ruling alliance of conservatives, some moderate liberals

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Speaker 1: and a few nationalists ideologues kept in being by his

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Speaker 1: political agility and guaranteed ultimately by the armed forces. So

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Speaker 1: it's just much more of this compromise regime that he's

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Speaker 1: willing to make because he's just kind of he's a

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Speaker 1: pragmatic guy. Now, this is ultimately what will save his

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Speaker 1: regime and Franco's regime, you know, at least there's an

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Speaker 1: argument that it saves Franco's regime during the Second World

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Speaker 1: War because Franco only wins his civil war because of

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Speaker 1: the help he gets from the continental fascist powers, right

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Speaker 1: like he gets very famously, the German Air Force is

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Speaker 1: going to bomb a bunch of places for Franco. Right

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Speaker 1: And despite the fact that you would think and Hitler

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Speaker 1: had kind of expected, well, obviously, once I wind up

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Speaker 1: in a big war, Spain is going to back me, right,

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Speaker 1: and that Franco never does this. He refuses, he doesn't

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Speaker 1: go on the side of the Allies, right, he doesn't

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Speaker 1: outright betray Germany, but he never throws his hat into

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Speaker 1: the ring with the Axis once the fighting begins in earnest.

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Speaker 1: The reasons for this are complex, and they have a

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Speaker 1: lot to do with Portugal's traditionally warm relationship with Great Britain,

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Speaker 1: because Salazar gets a lot of credit for stopping Franco

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Speaker 1: from going all in on the fascists during this war

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Speaker 1: and from like outright allying with them. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of debate as to how much credit how much of

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Speaker 1: this was Franco just kind of recognizing this is a

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Speaker 1: bigger risk than I want to tank. But Salazar, at

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Speaker 1: least according to one version of the story, is a

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Speaker 1: major part of what keeps Franco out. And part of

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Speaker 1: why Salazar is like this is even though he's got

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Speaker 1: a lot of sympathies with the fascists and a good

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Speaker 1: relationship with them, he still has a good relationship with

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Speaker 1: Great Britain, who had been Portugal's traditional ally and so

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Speaker 1: Salazar never sees even though he gets he gets lumped

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Speaker 1: in as a fascist in this period, he never sees

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Speaker 1: politics in simple terms of fascist versus anti fascist right,

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Speaker 1: or even authoritarian verse democratic. Instead, he acts based on

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Speaker 1: a much simpler logical rubric, which is that Portugal small

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Speaker 1: and we don't have any ability to project military force

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Speaker 1: in a way that matters on the level of a

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Speaker 1: great power. So we have to be careful and we

388
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Speaker 1: can't piss off anyone too much, right or over committed.

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Speaker 1: He's not gonna do. He would never back the fascists militarily,

390
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Speaker 1: because like, what am I gonna do send soldiers to

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Speaker 1: fucking Russia. I'm gonna have Portuguese truths fighting and fucking Russia.

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Speaker 1: What the hell is that gonna do?

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Speaker 3: Right?

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Speaker 2: I would, but I'm built different.

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Speaker 1: You would, yeah, but you would go yeah, But you know,

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Speaker 1: he's probably influenced here by the fact that he just

397
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Speaker 1: watched the Republicans burn a lot of their goodwill by

398
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Speaker 1: getting involved in World War One, and he's like, I'm

399
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:44,840
Speaker 1: just not gonna do that, Like that could never be me.

400
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Speaker 1: Built different.

401
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Speaker 2: It's actually kind of like a big and obvious thing

402
00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:50,199
Speaker 2: to see is like, hey, the guy that went to

403
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Speaker 2: school knows not to do the Hitler stuff.

404
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, seems bad. Nah, no, thank you, you.

405
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Speaker 2: Know, Like I mean, Hitler was a soldier that that

406
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Speaker 2: went to jail for trying.

407
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Speaker 1: To overthrow the government.

408
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Speaker 2: Yeah, like this guy sucks. Yeah, and this guy this,

409
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Speaker 2: I mean, I'm gonna go out on a limb and

410
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Speaker 2: you know what, you can hear me out first.

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Speaker 1: Sure, Hitler sucks. Not cool, not my favorite guy. Yeah,

412
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Speaker 1: not a cool dude.

413
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Speaker 2: And also but really sucks at like knowing what to.

414
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Speaker 1: Do, you know, yeah, yeah, when to get when to

415
00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:24,119
Speaker 1: you know, when to roll the dice?

416
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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. But it is funny like when

417
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:29,879
Speaker 2: you talk about like the value of an education and

418
00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:32,040
Speaker 2: like the irony being like, you know, it's a pretty

419
00:20:32,119 --> 00:20:34,879
Speaker 2: valuable thing to learn about education is how to not

420
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Speaker 2: get all of your people murdered?

421
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Speaker 1: Yeah, how to avoid that shit. Yeah. And it's also

422
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Speaker 1: he's also got this thing going for him where, you know,

423
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Speaker 1: unlike in Germany, and Germany had been the Kaiser's regime

424
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Speaker 1: that had you know, gotten every into World War two,

425
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Speaker 1: and in Portugal it had been the democracy, the republic

426
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Speaker 1: that had made that choice, right, And so he's just

427
00:20:57,000 --> 00:21:00,480
Speaker 1: got he's a little bit you know, he's gunned because

428
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Speaker 1: he's looking at the immediate past and he's like, nah,

429
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Speaker 1: fuck that shit, I'm just that could never be me,

430
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Speaker 1: bro could never be me.

431
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Speaker 2: Not me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, smart smart man. Unfortunately, so he plays a

433
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Speaker 1: role a lot of people will argue in keeping Franco neutral,

434
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Speaker 1: and there's significant evidence that he operates with the direct

435
00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:21,560
Speaker 1: help of the British government in doing this, that he

436
00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,080
Speaker 1: is like he's communicating with like the British empires, like

437
00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:29,480
Speaker 1: diplomats because of this long standing alliance. Early in the war,

438
00:21:29,520 --> 00:21:32,439
Speaker 1: British intelligence would pass on messages to Salazar which he

439
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,960
Speaker 1: would take to Franco in order to negotiate backdoor deals

440
00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,040
Speaker 1: to keep Spain out of direct involvement in the war.

441
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,680
Speaker 1: And this is really stressful for his hair goes gray

442
00:21:42,119 --> 00:21:45,639
Speaker 1: like because it's the fascists are looking pretty good early

443
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:47,840
Speaker 1: in the war and there's a lot of pressure Franco's like,

444
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,240
Speaker 1: maybe we ought to get involved. We could get some

445
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,119
Speaker 1: shit out of this, right, and probably a lot of

446
00:21:53,119 --> 00:21:55,360
Speaker 1: even people on like Franco's side are like, why are

447
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 1: we not backing the clear winners? And Salas are like eh,

448
00:21:59,480 --> 00:22:02,000
Speaker 1: And he gets but he gets increasingly like pump the

449
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:05,240
Speaker 1: breaks home. This ages him by like ten or fifteen years.

450
00:22:05,359 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 1: Most people will agree he's visibly older by the time

451
00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,320
Speaker 1: the war, he gots the Obama treatment, he gets the

452
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,440
Speaker 1: he goes gray. Churchill's people are like, he started snapping

453
00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,439
Speaker 1: at us and yelling at us. Whenever we talk to him.

454
00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,520
Speaker 1: He almost seems like he's losing it, right, Like he

455
00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:20,960
Speaker 1: is not. This is not an easy time for him.

456
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,919
Speaker 1: He's not like negotiating this simply right.

457
00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:28,680
Speaker 2: A pretty stressful era for the World War two. Switzerland

458
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,440
Speaker 2: just looking over being like they got something going on.

459
00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:33,720
Speaker 1: How strong are our borders?

460
00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:34,000
Speaker 2: Right?

461
00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:38,000
Speaker 1: But look, yeah, so his role in this is substantial

462
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 1: enough and keeping Franco out of the war that Churchill's

463
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:44,920
Speaker 1: government organizes three separate tokens of appreciation for Salazar's efforts.

464
00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:47,960
Speaker 1: The first, in September of nineteen forty, is a written

465
00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,639
Speaker 1: letter of thanks directly from Winston Churchill. The second they're like,

466
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 1: you know what, this, this written letter of thanks isn't enough.

467
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 1: Let's lean on Oxford and let's have Oxford give Salazar

468
00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:02,320
Speaker 1: an honorary degree. Move yeah, yeah, no, that's that's smart. Yeah,

469
00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 1: make him an honorary.

470
00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,120
Speaker 2: Letter is kind of like who gives a shit? Really?

471
00:23:06,280 --> 00:23:09,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, it gives it a thanks? Yeah, thank you, thank you? Yeah?

472
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:10,880
Speaker 2: Thanks drunk? Yeah.

473
00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,719
Speaker 1: So basically the government leans on Oxford, and Oxford is like,

474
00:23:14,920 --> 00:23:17,399
Speaker 1: they send a team to Combra University where he had

475
00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:19,920
Speaker 1: been a professor, and we're like, yeah, let's uh, let's

476
00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 1: give the dictator a degree.

477
00:23:21,720 --> 00:23:21,960
Speaker 2: Right.

478
00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:24,639
Speaker 1: And then the third thing that the British do is

479
00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 1: they upgrade the ambassador to Portugal. Right, And this is

480
00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 1: like a very literal thing where they're like, it had

481
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,440
Speaker 1: been a low raking member of the nobility and they

482
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:34,919
Speaker 1: send a much higher ranking member of the nobility to

483
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:36,200
Speaker 1: be the ambassador.

484
00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:38,800
Speaker 2: Yeah that's always fun, right, Yeah, Like.

485
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 1: Now you've got a guy who's closer to the king

486
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 1: who's the ambassador because we like you that much, right,

487
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:44,160
Speaker 1: And they.

488
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 2: Expand it is a gift, but it is also a

489
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 2: smart political strategy as well. Yeah, made him feel like

490
00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 2: somebody doing a certain thing where there's a potential that

491
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,920
Speaker 2: you could turn them into an ally. You aren't want

492
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,360
Speaker 2: to butter him up, so you do want a higher ranking.

493
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,880
Speaker 2: It's sort of like how like the ambassador in Mexico

494
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 2: was historically like a pretty cushy but high ranking yeah

495
00:24:08,000 --> 00:24:10,680
Speaker 2: job because it was like there are next door neighbors

496
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,359
Speaker 2: and that's really cool.

497
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 1: I guess this is why I mean this is you know,

498
00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:18,280
Speaker 1: in our podcast, Jeff, when we reached out to you,

499
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 1: we actually had the Duke of Windsor, you know, email

500
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 1: you asking if you wanted to be on the podcast,

501
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 1: which which a lot of people don't know that. Daniel,

502
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,480
Speaker 1: our audio editor, is the Duke of Windsor.

503
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 2: But I was going to say, we have history, and

504
00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:33,720
Speaker 2: so I actually did not appreciate that.

505
00:24:34,280 --> 00:24:37,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, yeah you do. You were in the IRA

506
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:40,360
Speaker 1: for a period of time in the nineties. Anyway, Well,

507
00:24:40,400 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: we'll talk about that later. You know who else was

508
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:47,760
Speaker 1: in the IRA in the nineteen nineties, probably Hello Fresh? Yeah, hello,

509
00:24:47,840 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 1: almost certainly. I mean, actually that's way too cool for HelloFresh. No, now,

510
00:24:51,280 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 1: Hello Thatcher is what it was called. Yeah, Hello Thatcher.

511
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 1: We've brought a bomb. See Hello Fresh. We can be

512
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:00,480
Speaker 1: mean to you, or we can be nigh to you,

513
00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:03,560
Speaker 1: right if you want us to make more comparisons with

514
00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,040
Speaker 1: you in a terrorist group, but like you know, a

515
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 1: popular one, send us some money. Yeah, we're back and

516
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:22,080
Speaker 1: we're talking about Hello Fresh, proud sponsors of the IRA. Yeah.

517
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 2: I said the same thing when I found that out.

518
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,679
Speaker 1: So far, yeah, yeah, yeah, it surprises a lot of people.

519
00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 1: Speaking of surprising. Salas are surprisingly good at being the

520
00:25:32,440 --> 00:25:36,760
Speaker 1: dictator of Portugal, so the fact that the British are

521
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: really leaning on him to help keep Franco out of

522
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 1: the war is a big ask for the man. But

523
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 1: it's also you know, Franco, this is not a smooth relationship.

524
00:25:45,400 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 1: He and Salazar are not. This is not easy. Franco

525
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: is never as committed to the international fascist cause as

526
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:54,520
Speaker 1: Hitler and Mussolini. Right, he is like Salazar and Iberian,

527
00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:57,679
Speaker 1: but he's also an opportunist. In these early years of

528
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:01,159
Speaker 1: sweeping fascist success, he gets really angry at Salazar for

529
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 1: like holding him back. In one notable moment, he complains

530
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 1: that Salazar is untimido, like a weakling, right like he's

531
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 1: he's timid, He's weak. And the frustration is buoyed by

532
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 1: the manner in which Salazar controls his military because he's

533
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:16,159
Speaker 1: a lot of guys in his military are kind of

534
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 1: on the Franco side of things here, and he keeps

535
00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: replacing these guys in power and replacing them with these

536
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 1: younger lickspittles that he can trust to be loyal to him,

537
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 1: and they he appoints so many kids in their thirties

538
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 1: over experienced officers that like long standing members of the

539
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 1: military start to get angry and kind of like feeling frustrated.

540
00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 2: What does this doage?

541
00:26:37,200 --> 00:26:39,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, what is the like he's doing kind of

542
00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 1: a doge thing here, right, And this is very different

543
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 1: from like a career military man like Franco but also Salazar.

544
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 1: They're never, they're never, they're not in this period. Eventually,

545
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:50,719
Speaker 1: his alienation of the military is going to cause problems

546
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: for his successors, but it never gets bad enough while

547
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: he's in power that they feel bold enough to try.

548
00:26:57,359 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 1: In World War Two, it becomes clearer as that kind

549
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 1: of goes on, and like Operation Barbarossa turns against the Germans,

550
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,720
Speaker 1: everyone starts to realize, like, oh shit, Salazar probably had

551
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:10,000
Speaker 1: the right idea here. Fascism's not looking so hot, right,

552
00:27:10,280 --> 00:27:12,719
Speaker 1: all of its Central Europe has been leveled by like

553
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: Allied bombing raids might have worked out really well for

554
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: us that you kept out of this thing.

555
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 2: Huh, the boy knew what was up.

556
00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm kind of glad we didn't send the Portuguese

557
00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: army to Stalingrad. And sort of while this is happening,

558
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:30,159
Speaker 1: Portugal is profiting from both sides of the war. He

559
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 1: is an arch war profit here, and because he's never

560
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 1: fully aligned, he's able to make really good money from everyone.

561
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,880
Speaker 1: For the New York Times quote, the money came from

562
00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: Britain in the United States for the use of the

563
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,720
Speaker 1: Azora's Islands as naval and air bases. At the same time,

564
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 1: Lisbon was the spy center for the Axis as well

565
00:27:45,920 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: as the Allied Powers, with both of which Portugal traded.

566
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,919
Speaker 1: So they're trading with everyone. They're selling to everybody in

567
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: forty they wait until forty three to hand those islands

568
00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: over to the Allies as naval and air bases, when

569
00:27:56,880 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: it's pretty clear you know where things are going. But

570
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: they're profiteering from everyone. Now, all of this does come

571
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: at a personal cost for Salazar. Negotiating a middle way

572
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 1: at the center of the largest war in humanistry is

573
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,880
Speaker 1: not simple, and this does age him. By nineteen forty five,

574
00:28:12,119 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: he looks like he's much older than his years, and

575
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 1: the victory of the USSR and the Democratic Nations spooks

576
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: him initially, right in forty five, he's like, shit.

577
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:23,040
Speaker 2: Oh did he not turn great? Because he thought he

578
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 2: saw a ghost. Yeah, he thought he saw he thought

579
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,160
Speaker 2: he thought a Scooby Doo character. Yeah, yeah, he thinks

580
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,280
Speaker 2: he's like fucked right that like oh America and the

581
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 2: Soviets one, the left is going to rise worldwide in

582
00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:36,399
Speaker 2: the wake of this, and that's not going to be

583
00:28:36,400 --> 00:28:39,440
Speaker 2: good for a guy like me who's a career anti communist.

584
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:42,280
Speaker 2: And so he gets scared enough that in nineteen forty

585
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,360
Speaker 2: five he has an election and it's not a it's

586
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 2: not a real election, but he lets political parties besides

587
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 2: his own party run again, and he claims publicly that

588
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,880
Speaker 2: the election will be quote as free as in free England.

589
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 2: So how many times have you said that exact statement

590
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 2: over the course of this show constantly where it's like

591
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 2: the dictator had an election, Yeah, it was an election,

592
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 2: but he let people run. Yeah, did he kill the

593
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 2: people that ran against him?

594
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: Not immediately, He's going to lock some of them up

595
00:29:15,200 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 1: and tortures some of them. Right, This isn't going to last,

596
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:20,840
Speaker 1: but there is this initial because he's kind of spooked.

597
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: He doesn't want to push the allies too hard. He

598
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 1: doesn't want to seem like a fascist in this period,

599
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 1: so he's kind of scared. He empowers a new set

600
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: of special military courts to liberalize the policies of the

601
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 1: political police. There's this concentration camp Tarafhal where the communists

602
00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 1: and these democratic activists are held, and he improves conditions.

603
00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 1: He lets them talk to their families on the outside.

604
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: He restores contact with what one inmate described as the

605
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:47,400
Speaker 1: living world. In the post war period for a little

606
00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:50,040
Speaker 1: while and for an article in the Journal of Music

607
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 1: and Politics, Annabel Duirte writes, Portuguese fascism was quickly trying

608
00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: to make its political conversion. It was trying to eliminate

609
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: and make us forget the more conspicuous aspects that I

610
00:29:59,720 --> 00:30:01,960
Speaker 1: didn't fight it with the dying regimes that had been

611
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 1: its allies.

612
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,240
Speaker 2: And I do like the idea like whoa, whoa, whoa

613
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 2: fascist me. It's just look this guy. We have field

614
00:30:11,200 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 2: days in Jamas, you know him. Yeah, in Portugal camps

615
00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 2: it's like a camp camp.

616
00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,080
Speaker 1: Not a camp camp Jesus camp camp camp. No, it's

617
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 1: a camp, you know, you know, like the camp right exactly.

618
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: It's nice. So these changes are not entirely cosmetic, right this.

619
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: Things do get better for people in military prison for

620
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: a while, not forever, But they don't presage this is

621
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: not a legitimate change towards liberalism. Right, he's not really

622
00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: introducing any more freedom. One major policy change that sounds

623
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: good on paper is the political police can now only

624
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 1: hold detainees without charges or a warrant for one hundred

625
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 1: and eighty days. Right, so you can only keep people

626
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: for six months without saying why you're doing it.

627
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 2: That's standing on my head.

628
00:30:54,840 --> 00:30:56,520
Speaker 1: And this is not Yeah, you would have to in

629
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:57,960
Speaker 1: a Portuguese torture prison.

630
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:00,000
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what, I'd come out with, the tight end,

631
00:31:00,000 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 2: the strongest.

632
00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: Shoulder, shoulder nuts especially, Like, God, you're spending way longer

633
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:06,440
Speaker 1: than six months there.

634
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 2: All that is just like me, honestly, that's a training camp. Yeah,

635
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 2: that's what kind of camp it is. It's training camp.

636
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 1: It's gonna last a little longer than that, because the

637
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: only result of this policy is that every after six months,

638
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:19,800
Speaker 1: you release the prisoners and then as soon as they

639
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 1: step outside the prison, you arrest them again for another

640
00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,320
Speaker 1: six months. Right, that's all you're doing. You're not actually

641
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 1: letting anybody out here.

642
00:31:27,320 --> 00:31:27,600
Speaker 2: Now.

643
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: He does make it, right, Yeah, it's it's pretty dictatory stuff.

644
00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: He does make one real concession, although it's brief, which

645
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 1: is that he allows the Movemento Unidad Democratica, which is

646
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 1: like a democratic umbrella party, to briefly start organizing and

647
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:46,440
Speaker 1: running candidates. Now this is a broad coalition, but even

648
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,920
Speaker 1: that proves to be too much for Salazar to allow.

649
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:51,880
Speaker 1: Within a few years, the MOVEMENTO starts to pick up

650
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,480
Speaker 1: steam and it becomes clear that there's enough leftist sentiment

651
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:57,479
Speaker 1: to present a threat to his regime. So in nineteen

652
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: forty eight he outlaws the organization, calls it a communist front.

653
00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: Now by forty eight he's kind of again, he's got

654
00:32:06,480 --> 00:32:09,880
Speaker 1: these good instincts where he pretends to liberalize in the

655
00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 1: post war period, where there's this kind of surge in

656
00:32:12,440 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: support for these kind of anti far right, you know,

657
00:32:15,800 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: pro left ideas worldwide, and he gauges correctly that like,

658
00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: that's not going to last. And by forty eight, the

659
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,880
Speaker 1: post war danger posed by the victory of anti fascism

660
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 1: is over right. The whole Cold War thing is starting

661
00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:33,120
Speaker 1: to spin up. There's now this kind of anti leftist

662
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 1: sentiment that is increasingly entrenched all over the quote unquote

663
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:41,719
Speaker 1: democratic world. Portugal gets admitted to NATO and Sala's our

664
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 1: strong anti communist credentials officially outlasted the brief period during

665
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: which Americans had had to pretend that they considered the

666
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:51,360
Speaker 1: USSR an ally. Right, he doesn't have to hold out

667
00:32:51,440 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: long for us to be like, oh, this guy used

668
00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: to be Hitler's friend and Mussolini's friend, but he's an

669
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,200
Speaker 1: anti communist. Isn't that all that really matters? Right, We're

670
00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:01,239
Speaker 1: trying to lock up his as many anti communists as

671
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:04,840
Speaker 1: we can to form this block against the USSR. And

672
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:08,280
Speaker 1: so by forty eight, he's kind of held out long enough. Right.

673
00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: And there had been a lot of direct collaboration between

674
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:15,520
Speaker 1: the Nazi regime and Salazar's government, and Mussolini's regime and

675
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 1: Salazar's government, particularly within the political police. Right. Salazar's intelligence

676
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:23,720
Speaker 1: network had constantly been in contact with Mussolini and Hitler's

677
00:33:23,720 --> 00:33:27,160
Speaker 1: political police before and during the war. One of his

678
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,480
Speaker 1: top intel heads, Captain Agnostino Pierreira, had collaborated with the

679
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 1: Nazis as a private businessman trading tungsten during the war years. Right,

680
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:39,240
Speaker 1: and he's going to be operating the torture prison system

681
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,720
Speaker 1: after the war. Right, This guy who had been who

682
00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 1: was directly cribbing notes from the Gestapo and from the

683
00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 1: SD in nineteen fifty six, there's a huge wave of

684
00:33:48,640 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 1: repression that gets launched because by the mid fifties, with

685
00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,920
Speaker 1: the Cold War really going, Salazar's like, Okay, it's time

686
00:33:54,920 --> 00:33:57,719
Speaker 1: to get rid of all of these liberalizing policies. We

687
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: can really lock in and start absolute cracking down on

688
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 1: the left and on any kind of like pro democratic organization,

689
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: and nobody in nobody in America, whoever is going to

690
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 1: fuck with us. Right, he passes a law in fifty

691
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 1: six that is meant to extend the incarceration periods among

692
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 1: political prisoners to what is effectively a life sentence, and

693
00:34:18,480 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: this is directly based off of a German act in

694
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:23,800
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty five that led to what's called the Shuthoft system,

695
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 1: where detention time is unlimited for enemies of the state.

696
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: So again, this ally of the Americans who've just beaten

697
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:33,799
Speaker 1: the Nazis is using Nazi policies as the rubric for

698
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,640
Speaker 1: creating this sort of system in which to crack down

699
00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:38,839
Speaker 1: on descent, and the US is not only cool with it.

700
00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty seven, we send the CIA to Portugal

701
00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: to help train his secret police, so they go straight

702
00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 1: from learning from the Nazis to working with the CIA,

703
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 1: And part of what's happening here is that Salazar has

704
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: lobbied the White House and been like, look, if I fall,

705
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,759
Speaker 1: Portuguese communism is obviously going to come roaring back, you know,

706
00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 1: So you guys need to send me some dudes to

707
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: help my guys do torture. Duarte writes. A new period begins.

708
00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 1: Special agents travel to elite training camps in the United States,

709
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 1: such as Camp Pierri, Virginia, also known as the Farm,

710
00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 1: where they received instructions and methods and practices of interrogation

711
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 1: from CIA experts.

712
00:35:15,520 --> 00:35:20,080
Speaker 2: So great now, I mean, I like, yeah, you know,

713
00:35:20,280 --> 00:35:23,719
Speaker 2: he's just like, look, look a lot of people have

714
00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 2: a lot of ideas, uh huh. And I'm not going

715
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:27,919
Speaker 2: to say that they're all bad.

716
00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:31,919
Speaker 1: American fascist German fascists all take any fascist idea about

717
00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:33,359
Speaker 1: how to torture leftists.

718
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like, can we make them stronger? Though?

719
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:40,480
Speaker 1: Yeah? And the CIA again like just the degree to

720
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: which they are now playing a crucial role, and specifically

721
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 1: they're helping teach him how to use we'll talk about

722
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,400
Speaker 1: this more later, like auditory torture in order to like

723
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 1: really break people's minds in these torture prisons, and the

724
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 1: CIA is like taking notes from him, right, yeah, yeah, yeah,

725
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 1: they invented van Halen for this. So this creates an

726
00:36:01,360 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: extraordinary turning point in the situation, right, the fact that

727
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 1: there's like that these CIA experts are coming in and

728
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: they're starting to like they're training Portuguese people in the

729
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 1: farm over in Virginia. There's now protests. There's like a

730
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 1: protest campaign that rises up from family members of prisoners

731
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 1: who are like angry that their family members are being

732
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 1: tortured so hideously, and they start protesting enough that the

733
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:28,360
Speaker 1: government has to take note of it. Again, it's not

734
00:36:28,480 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 1: a complete totalitarian system. He can't totally ignore stuff like this.

735
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: And seventy two Portuguese lawyers from Lisbon, Porto and other

736
00:36:36,400 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: cities put out a comprehensive report on irregularities concerning the

737
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:45,040
Speaker 1: treatment of prisoners and deaths in the state prisons. Duarte writes,

738
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 1: quote Joaquim the most To Olivera, a barber and democrat

739
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,800
Speaker 1: from Foff age forty eight, and Menuel to Silva Junior,

740
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 1: a worker and anti fascist from Viana de Castello age

741
00:36:53,520 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: sixty nine, for instance, had died inside a prison in

742
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:59,919
Speaker 1: Porto in nineteen fifty seven, officially they had committed suicide.

743
00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 1: And it starts to leak out at this period is

744
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:07,160
Speaker 1: the degree to which these torture prisons have become institutionalized

745
00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 1: in Portugal. People find out that they're locking prisoners in

746
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,879
Speaker 1: these tiny cells called cigaretto, which have no natural light

747
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,880
Speaker 1: or even space to walk. You can only like really stand.

748
00:37:18,080 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: You can't even fully lie down. There's like a wooden

749
00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 1: board for a bed, but you can't even straighten your

750
00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,319
Speaker 1: body out on the ground. People with money who are

751
00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:28,759
Speaker 1: like middle class can pay for a larger cell, but

752
00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:31,640
Speaker 1: it's still a dungeon, right, and it's costing your family

753
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:35,200
Speaker 1: a significant amount of money every day. One political prisoner

754
00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty six left an account stating for over

755
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:39,560
Speaker 1: a month he was locked in a wet cement cell

756
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: without sufficient light or air. Then he was forced to

757
00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,520
Speaker 1: pay the daily sum of tenniscuto's for he was threatened

758
00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: with the dungeons if he did not pay. So there's

759
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 1: starting to be some resistance to this from like family

760
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 1: members of people who are being held for a period

761
00:37:53,440 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: of time, and some of this even leaks out internationally.

762
00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 1: But it's this thing where Ultimately, the anti communist struggle

763
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 1: is more like it matters a lot more for every

764
00:38:05,560 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 1: one of his backers than the fact that he is

765
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,319
Speaker 1: using these techniques, like some of which we're teaching him.

766
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:11,560
Speaker 2: Right.

767
00:38:12,080 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: And there's this also a handy thing where the CIA

768
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 1: is like, well, we'll take notes on what he's doing, right,

769
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:19,280
Speaker 1: We'll figure out what works so that when we start

770
00:38:19,280 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 1: pushing to you know, overthrow governments in Latin America, we

771
00:38:23,800 --> 00:38:26,920
Speaker 1: can give them data on what works and sells ours prisons. Right,

772
00:38:26,960 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 1: He's like a laboratory for like anti left wing crackdowns

773
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 1: and operating secret police states. And that's kind of the

774
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,480
Speaker 1: role that he's playing internationally in this period of time.

775
00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: So that's cool that it's really cool. Yeah, yeah, it's great.

776
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 1: I love our role in this.

777
00:38:46,040 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, look at us.

778
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 1: It makes me feel good about the country. One of

779
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,600
Speaker 1: the things that the CIA really helps him lock down

780
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 1: is their kind of use of the statue. This very

781
00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: like Portuguese torture technique, where people are made to hold

782
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,360
Speaker 1: position for days or weeks at a time without sleeping

783
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,480
Speaker 1: while police shout in their ears and threaten them. This

784
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:08,920
Speaker 1: is billed legally as it's not torture. It's a continuous investigation, right,

785
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:13,120
Speaker 1: They're constantly being interrogated for evidence about like terrorism, and

786
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 1: so this is necessary for the security of the state.

787
00:39:16,120 --> 00:39:18,640
Speaker 1: And they start increasingly using sound as a weapon, like

788
00:39:18,680 --> 00:39:22,160
Speaker 1: where they'll play in like speakers, like voices of other people,

789
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: like whispering, or even like sounds from outside, sounds of

790
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: people being tortured to like fuck with the heads of

791
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:31,320
Speaker 1: people who are locked in position, unable to like sleep

792
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 1: or move for days at a time, in order to

793
00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 1: make them go crazy. Right, Like that's the purpose of this,

794
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,120
Speaker 1: and the CIA is helping them. Right, We're taking notes

795
00:39:40,160 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 1: on all of this and where some of this stuff

796
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:44,719
Speaker 1: winds up being part of the enhanced interrogation techniques we

797
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 1: used after nine to eleven. Like, this is groundbreaking research

798
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 1: in the field of how to torture people, which is

799
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 1: part of why we're so interested in Salazar's regime, as

800
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:55,759
Speaker 1: he gives us a chance, He gives our torture guys

801
00:39:55,760 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: a chance to see what works to break people's brains.

802
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:02,000
Speaker 1: Pretty cool, pretty cool stuff.

803
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,399
Speaker 2: I mean cool. I know that cool. I know there's

804
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 2: going to be comments, yeah, but you got to remove

805
00:40:07,920 --> 00:40:11,160
Speaker 2: yourself from the horrors. That's pretty cool.

806
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:13,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's pretty cool. At least we know this stuff, right,

807
00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,239
Speaker 1: It's always good to have data, you know, on what

808
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:18,359
Speaker 1: kind of torture works, on how long you can play

809
00:40:18,440 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 1: Van Halen to somebody before their mind collapses. Just about

810
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 1: nine minutes at least from my little learn han. Yeah.

811
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,560
Speaker 1: So Salazar regime obviously is no less brutal after World

812
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: War Two than it had been before. But the man

813
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 1: seemed different and he was treated different internationally. He's now

814
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,840
Speaker 1: an elder statesman and he's he's fitted around the world

815
00:40:39,880 --> 00:40:42,879
Speaker 1: as like not you know, he's a dictator, but he's

816
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:45,640
Speaker 1: a good dictator, right He kept Spain out of World

817
00:40:45,640 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 1: War Two and he kept Portugal from falling to communism, right,

818
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,719
Speaker 1: So like he's the he's the socially acceptable dictator you

819
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:56,000
Speaker 1: know in a lot of the West right now. Personally,

820
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:59,399
Speaker 1: as I said, he looks physically weaker after the war.

821
00:40:59,440 --> 00:41:03,280
Speaker 1: He's kind of burnt out. And you do see, especially

822
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 1: as the fifties we're into the sixties, he's tired, and

823
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:09,160
Speaker 1: he's less careful than the younger version of himself had been.

824
00:41:09,640 --> 00:41:12,360
Speaker 1: And these factors he starts kind of slipping. This is

825
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,279
Speaker 1: going to lead him to embrace what would become a

826
00:41:14,320 --> 00:41:18,279
Speaker 1: calamity for the sake of maintaining Portugal's doomed overseas empire. Right,

827
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:22,000
Speaker 1: he's going to make his first really disastrously bad decisions

828
00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:24,759
Speaker 1: starting in the early sixties, and we're going to talk

829
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 1: about that. But you know who else made some bad

830
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 1: decisions in the sixties, like everyone, that's right, that's right,

831
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 1: but particularly the sponsors of this podcast. Oh wow, and

832
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:47,239
Speaker 1: we're back. So if you've ever looked at a mapp

833
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,240
Speaker 1: a Europe, you know that Portugal not a big country.

834
00:41:50,360 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 1: It's a little rectangle cut out of the Iberia, a

835
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:56,480
Speaker 1: fingernail of Europe. Right, It's like the fingernail of Europe.

836
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 1: If like fucking Spain is the thumb, it's a fingernail

837
00:41:59,400 --> 00:42:00,839
Speaker 1: right now in.

838
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 2: Sallis Spain is the thumb. It's the thumbnail.

839
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:04,480
Speaker 1: Yea, it's the thumbnail. Thank you.

840
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 2: So we are intellectuals on this.

841
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:11,280
Speaker 1: We have to be accurate here. Now, most of Portuguese territory,

842
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:14,360
Speaker 1: most of what the government controls, is not Portugal, and

843
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:15,280
Speaker 1: it's not in Europe.

844
00:42:15,360 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 2: Right.

845
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:19,399
Speaker 1: These are what are called, euphemistically the overseas provinces, which

846
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:21,279
Speaker 1: is a term that's created to hide the fact that

847
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:25,160
Speaker 1: Portugal owns a lot of the rest of the world, right,

848
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:27,439
Speaker 1: and it's really kind of silly at this point.

849
00:42:27,560 --> 00:42:30,359
Speaker 2: Good for them, I guess, yeah, not going.

850
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 1: To be great for them in this period.

851
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 2: No, And to be fair, not good for the Earth.

852
00:42:35,960 --> 00:42:36,800
Speaker 1: No.

853
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 2: No. But if their goal was to be a small

854
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:44,279
Speaker 2: little sliver on the planet and just start taking shit over, yeah,

855
00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:46,560
Speaker 2: I mean mission accomplished temporarily.

856
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean they're they're holding onto it for a

857
00:42:49,160 --> 00:42:50,840
Speaker 1: long period of time, right.

858
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,359
Speaker 2: Believe it, achieve it. You know what I'm saying. Something

859
00:42:53,400 --> 00:42:56,080
Speaker 2: you can take away from this episode. You can be

860
00:42:56,200 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 2: a small, little dumbass country and still get it done.

861
00:43:01,360 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, at least for a while up until the early seventies.

862
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, let's look at this has instagram reel energy

863
00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 2: where it's like I have two kids and I still

864
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 2: work out every day.

865
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:14,760
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, their instagram reeling colonialism, right yeah.

866
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:15,440
Speaker 2: Yeah.

867
00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 1: And on a map, their situation looks pretty impressive in

868
00:43:19,360 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 1: like the late fifties early sixties, because they've held onto

869
00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: Portugal in this period owns modern day Angola and modern

870
00:43:26,040 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 1: day Mozambique, and Mozambic alone is like nine times the

871
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:31,440
Speaker 1: size of Portugal. Right, it's not a much bigger, not

872
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 1: a small country. They also control Guinea Bassau, Sautome, Capo

873
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,920
Speaker 1: Verdo as well as if you've ever been to India

874
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: or heard of a place called Goa in India, which

875
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:44,080
Speaker 1: is like it's kind of where Cyitrance comes out of it.

876
00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 1: I've heard it referred to as like Russia's Mexico a

877
00:43:46,480 --> 00:43:48,879
Speaker 1: lot like it's like a party town in a lot

878
00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:52,400
Speaker 1: of ways. It's a major like tourist destination. I was

879
00:43:52,400 --> 00:43:55,320
Speaker 1: going to say, is like it's a big time tourist destination. Yeah,

880
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:58,680
Speaker 1: that's owned by Portugal up until the latter like third

881
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,640
Speaker 1: or third or so of the todieth century. That's Portuguese

882
00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 1: territory in the middle of fucking India.

883
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:04,800
Speaker 2: Club Portugal.

884
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:08,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like Club Portugal. And in order to maintain

885
00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,320
Speaker 1: all these colonial possessions, Portugal has to keep one hundred

886
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 1: thousand soldiers stationed mostly in Africa, but all over the

887
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,799
Speaker 1: world in order to keep in charge of these increasingly

888
00:44:17,880 --> 00:44:21,120
Speaker 1: restive possessions. Who after World War Two had started to

889
00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 1: be like, hey, a lot of anti colonial movements are

890
00:44:23,840 --> 00:44:28,439
Speaker 1: succeeding across the world, Like Britain's given up India. Why

891
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,319
Speaker 1: are we still part of Portugal? I feel like Angola

892
00:44:32,400 --> 00:44:34,919
Speaker 1: is its own thing. What are we doing here? Right?

893
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:38,600
Speaker 1: And by the start of the sixties, the cost of

894
00:44:38,640 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 1: repressing these constant movements for independence had grown precipitously. Portugal

895
00:44:43,520 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 1: in the start of the sixties has the heaviest defense

896
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:50,160
Speaker 1: burden of any European nation. They are spending forty percent

897
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,920
Speaker 1: of their annual budget to maintain control of these colonial possessions.

898
00:44:54,320 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean that's a lot of distance.

899
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 1: There's a lot of distance. It's not cheap to hold

900
00:44:59,280 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 1: a lot of boats.

901
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 2: But like boats are expensive.

902
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:05,800
Speaker 1: Boats cost money. An army costs money, a secret police

903
00:45:05,840 --> 00:45:06,760
Speaker 1: force costs money.

904
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 2: They should looked over to Spain be like, hey, how

905
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:09,960
Speaker 2: that armada thing work out? Yeah?

906
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:14,040
Speaker 1: Did that keep you while? Yeah? Really good until it

907
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:14,920
Speaker 1: was very bad.

908
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was really good. And then it became pardon

909
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,479
Speaker 2: the sailing reference on albatross around our next.

910
00:45:21,440 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, a little bit of an albatruss. Yeah. So this

911
00:45:24,760 --> 00:45:27,520
Speaker 1: is and again this is particularly ludicrous. That is the

912
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 1: sixty start, Portugal spending nearly half of their budget keeping

913
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 1: control of these colonial possessions. Salazar is the fiscal conservative

914
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 1: whose power rests on balancing the budget and being rational

915
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:41,359
Speaker 1: about money. And everyone's like, okay, but is it really

916
00:45:41,480 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 1: rational for like us to own so much of Africa?

917
00:45:45,400 --> 00:45:47,839
Speaker 1: And we're all we're not even really making money off

918
00:45:47,880 --> 00:45:50,960
Speaker 1: of it, right, We're spending money holding on to it,

919
00:45:51,000 --> 00:45:53,279
Speaker 1: Like why does this make sense? Right?

920
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:57,799
Speaker 2: That's the concern. It's like there's resources there, aren't you

921
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:01,040
Speaker 2: supposed to be like, yeah, during the resources. It's not

922
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:01,879
Speaker 2: like your whole thing.

923
00:46:02,160 --> 00:46:04,799
Speaker 1: It seems like this is nothing but negatives to us.

924
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 2: Although to be fair, I guess it is salt really

925
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 2: a thing you're fighting for in the nineteen hundreds, I.

926
00:46:10,040 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 1: Feel like there's plenty of salt. We got way too

927
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 1: much salt. Some people say waging you can't wage a

928
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 1: war for salt while exists? No, no, exactly right, like they.

929
00:46:20,280 --> 00:46:21,320
Speaker 2: Get it real cheap.

930
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, we've got so much salt now, we don't need

931
00:46:24,000 --> 00:46:24,440
Speaker 1: any of this.

932
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 2: We should never have waiged those wars. We've got too

933
00:46:26,840 --> 00:46:27,360
Speaker 2: much salt.

934
00:46:27,600 --> 00:46:29,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's we now know what it does to our heart. Right,

935
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 1: what if we'd never taken you know, any of these

936
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 1: salt territories. You know, Italians would live forever. So the

937
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:39,879
Speaker 1: irrationalism of this stance, of the fact that he's trying,

938
00:46:39,920 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: he's spending so much money to hold onto these possessions

939
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: and not really making back what Portugal is putting into it.

940
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 1: The irrationalism of this stance is key to understanding it,

941
00:46:47,880 --> 00:46:50,680
Speaker 1: because Salas are he's been kind of almost like a

942
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:52,960
Speaker 1: robot up to this point. He seems like such a

943
00:46:53,040 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 1: He's only making the nuts and bolts good financial decisions,

944
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:58,920
Speaker 1: and he's gotten his reputation is based on He's like

945
00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:03,359
Speaker 1: this cold hearted countant who doesn't fuck up right, and

946
00:47:03,400 --> 00:47:06,840
Speaker 1: that falls away after this point. Alan Smith, writing for

947
00:47:06,880 --> 00:47:09,840
Speaker 1: the Journal of African History, notes that Salazar has let

948
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 1: himself become consumed by the quote almost paranoid fear that

949
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 1: foreigners were busily plotting to dismember the Portuguese Empire. And

950
00:47:16,960 --> 00:47:19,360
Speaker 1: you have to see this as consistent with the logic

951
00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:22,280
Speaker 1: that kept him out of World War two. Portugal small

952
00:47:22,400 --> 00:47:26,280
Speaker 1: and that small size is of vulnerability, and he feels

953
00:47:26,320 --> 00:47:29,080
Speaker 1: some protective effect as long as they have this massive

954
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 1: overseas empire, that maybe that protects us from our small

955
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:36,279
Speaker 1: size of our main country. But even that feeling that

956
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:40,600
Speaker 1: this is keeping us safe is a delusion, right there's

957
00:47:40,640 --> 00:47:41,279
Speaker 1: also like a.

958
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 2: Big wave of anti colonial sentiment in the latter half

959
00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 2: of the twenty absolutely like pretty, I mean, look at

960
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:53,160
Speaker 2: what England gave up. Yeah, everything, They're like, yeah, I

961
00:47:53,200 --> 00:47:54,840
Speaker 2: guess we should probably cut it out.

962
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,759
Speaker 1: But yeah, but we'll give up some of it, right, And.

963
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 2: This is ok, you can be India again.

964
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 1: This is a problem for Portugal in that he has

965
00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:09,879
Speaker 1: previously he'd been so good at seeing where the wind

966
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,400
Speaker 1: was blowing and like, ah, you know what, I'm not

967
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:16,399
Speaker 1: going to back the fascists fully in World War two

968
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:19,359
Speaker 1: because I just don't think they're going to have staying power, right,

969
00:48:20,000 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 1: And in this point and right after the war, he's like,

970
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 1: I'm going to liberalize on paper because I crypto right. Right,

971
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,239
Speaker 1: he's good, he's been good at buying and selling at

972
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 1: the right times, and he is buying into colonialism at

973
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 1: exactly the wrong time.

974
00:48:34,560 --> 00:48:37,280
Speaker 2: Right. Normally is really good at seeing a scam.

975
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he's just he's kind of past his prime here, right.

976
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:42,960
Speaker 1: I think that's a big part of what's going on now.

977
00:48:43,560 --> 00:48:46,680
Speaker 1: All colonial powers are propped up in this in the

978
00:48:46,719 --> 00:48:50,279
Speaker 1: periods before by fantasies. Right. The British hold on to

979
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:51,960
Speaker 1: what they hold on to as long as they do

980
00:48:52,040 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 1: because they've they've got this need to believe they've still

981
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,959
Speaker 1: they haven't given up the empire entirely, right, we still

982
00:48:57,960 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 1: have some fragment of this thing that made us great.

983
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,479
Speaker 1: The French in this period clung to a policy known

984
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:06,800
Speaker 1: as franc Afrique, in which they granted their French speaking

985
00:49:06,840 --> 00:49:10,760
Speaker 1: African colonies a degree of autonomy while maintaining ultimate control

986
00:49:10,800 --> 00:49:13,839
Speaker 1: themselves and acting, as Bobakar Diop wrote for the New

987
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:17,719
Speaker 1: African as absentee landlords right where they're like, well, we'll

988
00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 1: let them be independent on paper, but these are French

989
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 1: speaking countries, and so we ultimately exercise power. And this

990
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 1: is a delusion for France to All of these are delusions.

991
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:28,440
Speaker 1: And now we're going to talk about what was Portugal's

992
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 1: delusion that backed up their colonial ideology in the Salazar period, right,

993
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 1: Because early on, when you're taking all this shit, you

994
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 1: don't need to back it up by anything other than like,

995
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 1: we're Christian, they're not. We've got guns. They don't come on.

996
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 2: Let a skin color, they'll be weird about it.

997
00:49:45,400 --> 00:49:47,960
Speaker 1: In the late twentieth century, Portugal has to find a

998
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:51,359
Speaker 1: way to like justify why they're holding onto this shit,

999
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:53,400
Speaker 1: and they actually try to do it by being like, actually,

1000
00:49:53,640 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 1: we're anti racist and we're the only colonial power that is.

1001
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 1: So the delusion that they onto is.

1002
00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 2: An old strategy, Catton, Let's see, it's.

1003
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:05,560
Speaker 1: See how well it works in the long run. The

1004
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:08,840
Speaker 1: strategy Salazar's regime is going to buy into is inspired

1005
00:50:08,880 --> 00:50:12,360
Speaker 1: by the work of a Brazilian sociologist named Gilberto Frere,

1006
00:50:12,920 --> 00:50:15,880
Speaker 1: and Salazar's regime buys hook line and syncer into this

1007
00:50:16,000 --> 00:50:20,400
Speaker 1: racial pseudoscientific theory that Frere comes up with called lusotropicalism,

1008
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:26,720
Speaker 1: and this argues that's brazilient, that's Brazilian. Yes, they argue.

1009
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:30,760
Speaker 1: Lucid Tropicalism is this idea that number one, Portuguese people

1010
00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:34,480
Speaker 1: are uniquely well suited to like these tropical and like

1011
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:38,920
Speaker 1: warmer climates that they're colonializing in. So number one, we

1012
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:42,280
Speaker 1: are fit to survive and these places we're running, unlike

1013
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 1: the British right. And number two, we've come up with

1014
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:49,640
Speaker 1: the only system of colonialism that's actually good for colonized

1015
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:53,800
Speaker 1: people because we're not racist, right, Unlike the British and French,

1016
00:50:54,040 --> 00:50:58,080
Speaker 1: Portuguese colonizers didn't consider themselves superior to the people they ruled.

1017
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 1: And the evidence for this is that they them and

1018
00:51:00,480 --> 00:51:03,520
Speaker 1: had kids with them, right, Like, we're cool with with

1019
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 1: you know, mixed race kids, right, Like, that's what makes

1020
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:08,520
Speaker 1: us not racist, right, we're breeding with them. We're not

1021
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 1: bigoted the same way all of these other Europeans are.

1022
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:14,000
Speaker 2: Right, somebody should have given them an American history text book.

1023
00:51:14,080 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, boy, or like any colonial history textbook. Right,

1024
00:51:18,480 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 1: Portugal is not special and they're no less racist than

1025
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:24,560
Speaker 1: anyone else. But that's what lusotropicalism is, the idea that,

1026
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:28,719
Speaker 1: like Portuguese colonialism is unique and special and thus defensible.

1027
00:51:29,040 --> 00:51:32,279
Speaker 2: Right, Glad, they might be slightly less racist than other people, Like,

1028
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:34,440
Speaker 2: they're probably a little less racist, maybe the Hitler.

1029
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:37,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're less racist than Hitler. Not a high bar, right.

1030
00:51:38,040 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know, but yeah, sure, we've brought him up.

1031
00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 2: It would be a shame to just forget him.

1032
00:51:42,960 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 1: You know, I'll say they clear that bar.

1033
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 2: Right.

1034
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:48,600
Speaker 1: I am going to quote per an article on lusotropicalism

1035
00:51:48,640 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 1: for Genocide Watch by Nat Hill. Quote. Lusotropicalism became the

1036
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:56,320
Speaker 1: defining ideology of Antonio de Olivera Salazar's pseudo fascist regime

1037
00:51:56,360 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 1: in Portugal. Following the Second World War, as European powers

1038
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:02,720
Speaker 1: increasingly sought to rid themselves of their colonial territories, Portugal

1039
00:52:02,760 --> 00:52:06,600
Speaker 1: under Salazar refused to consider granting its African colonies independence

1040
00:52:06,719 --> 00:52:10,920
Speaker 1: or autonomy, calling them the overseas provinces instead of colonies.

1041
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:15,759
Speaker 1: Mlcar Cabral, the founder and leader of the PAIGC in

1042
00:52:15,800 --> 00:52:19,040
Speaker 1: Portuguese Guinea, spoke about how the regime used lusotropicalism in

1043
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:22,680
Speaker 1: their colonial dogma. A whole mythology was assemboled, and as

1044
00:52:22,719 --> 00:52:25,799
Speaker 1: with other myths, especially those concerning the subjection and exploitation

1045
00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:28,240
Speaker 1: of peoples, there was no lack of men of science,

1046
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 1: even renowned sociologists, to provide a theoretical basis. In this case,

1047
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 1: Lusotropicalismo Gilberto Freyer transformed all of us who lived in

1048
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:38,840
Speaker 1: the provinces of Portugal into the fortunate inhabitants of a

1049
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:43,520
Speaker 1: lusotropical paradise. So instead of these are people were ruling,

1050
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 1: these people are really lucky because we know how to

1051
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:49,240
Speaker 1: actually take care of them, and that makes us fine.

1052
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:51,920
Speaker 1: We're different, We're better than every one.

1053
00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:54,120
Speaker 2: We're not like other boys, we're not like.

1054
00:52:54,080 --> 00:52:57,799
Speaker 1: The other colonial powers. Right, so now the reality is

1055
00:52:57,840 --> 00:53:01,120
Speaker 1: that there's nothing different about Portuguese colonialism. It is, I mean,

1056
00:53:01,200 --> 00:53:06,680
Speaker 1: it's it's a swing, it's a good branding, right, yeah,

1057
00:53:06,880 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 1: But Portuguese colonialism is like all colonialism, based on mass

1058
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:12,120
Speaker 1: resource extraction and force slabor.

1059
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 2: Right.

1060
00:53:12,840 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 1: Human trafficking had been the core of Portugal's colonial ambitions

1061
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:19,200
Speaker 1: since the fourteen hundreds, when the first West African people

1062
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,960
Speaker 1: were captured, taken to Portugal and sold into slavery in

1063
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:25,880
Speaker 1: Lagos Giovine Effect documents. In an article for Global Voices,

1064
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:28,880
Speaker 1: quote among the colonial powers that emerged over the centuries

1065
00:53:28,920 --> 00:53:33,279
Speaker 1: of European colonialism, Portugal trafficked the most enslaved people. No

1066
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 1: one else did as much human trafficking in the colonial

1067
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:41,959
Speaker 1: era as Portugal. They are top dog, right, and they've

1068
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:44,359
Speaker 1: got their defenders even to the modern day, who will

1069
00:53:44,360 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 1: claim that, like, no, we weren't as bad as the

1070
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,160
Speaker 1: other assholes, right. Obviously starting with that often there's this

1071
00:53:49,200 --> 00:53:51,840
Speaker 1: often reported claim that Portugal was like the first European

1072
00:53:51,880 --> 00:53:55,360
Speaker 1: country to ban slavery in seventeen sixty one, and this

1073
00:53:55,520 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 1: is a lie. Right, that year Portugal banned the importation

1074
00:53:58,080 --> 00:54:00,799
Speaker 1: of slaves into one city. But they continue to be

1075
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:04,720
Speaker 1: the primary global transporter of the transatlantic slave trade until

1076
00:54:04,760 --> 00:54:08,200
Speaker 1: eighteen fifty, and that Global Voices article has a graph

1077
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:10,360
Speaker 1: will put up in video form that makes it clear

1078
00:54:10,920 --> 00:54:16,360
Speaker 1: how much transatlantic slave trading is being done by Portugal. Right, Like,

1079
00:54:16,440 --> 00:54:20,240
Speaker 1: Portugal is the light green in this document and every

1080
00:54:20,360 --> 00:54:24,160
Speaker 1: period from fifteen oh one up to eighteen fifty, they

1081
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:29,600
Speaker 1: are by far the majority of the transatlantic slave trafficking.

1082
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 1: Right from eighteen oh one to eighteen fifty, the Netherlands

1083
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:37,400
Speaker 1: traffics about five hundred and sixty eight thousand people, and

1084
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,759
Speaker 1: the UK and France traffic smaller numbers than that, and

1085
00:54:40,840 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 1: Portugal is responsible for almost two and a half million people.

1086
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:46,399
Speaker 2: Practical, don't do that.

1087
00:54:46,760 --> 00:54:51,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, bad, bad, bad sprain with the water bottle. Now,

1088
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:54,920
Speaker 1: the transatlantic slave trade obviously ends kind of in the

1089
00:54:54,920 --> 00:54:57,440
Speaker 1: middle of the of the eighteen hundreds, but that doesn't

1090
00:54:57,440 --> 00:55:00,719
Speaker 1: stop Portugal from utilizing forced labor. Right, they change it,

1091
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:02,720
Speaker 1: you know, they alter it. You're not you're no longer

1092
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 1: trafficking people in the same way, but you are still

1093
00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:07,880
Speaker 1: forcing people to work for you, and you're just dressing

1094
00:55:07,880 --> 00:55:09,799
Speaker 1: it up as like well, these people were arrested for

1095
00:55:09,840 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 1: this purpose. Right in nineteen twenty nine, a civil and

1096
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:16,560
Speaker 1: criminal Political Statute for the Indigenous Peoples of the Colonies

1097
00:55:16,600 --> 00:55:19,799
Speaker 1: in Mozambique and Angola was established, which laid out that

1098
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 1: native people could not be assigned rights related to constitutional institutions.

1099
00:55:24,520 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 1: This forced segregation remained the law of the land throughout

1100
00:55:27,560 --> 00:55:31,200
Speaker 1: the period of Salazar's Estado Novo, even though we saying no, no, no,

1101
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:34,960
Speaker 1: we're lusotropical lists, right, we're the ones who aren't racist.

1102
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:38,279
Speaker 1: But also indigenous peoples in Africa are not allowed to

1103
00:55:38,280 --> 00:55:39,880
Speaker 1: have constitutional rights, you know.

1104
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 2: And also we did a lot of slave stuff.

1105
00:55:41,719 --> 00:55:43,440
Speaker 1: We did a lot of slave stuff, and we do

1106
00:55:43,560 --> 00:55:44,719
Speaker 1: not feel bad about it.

1107
00:55:44,760 --> 00:55:46,280
Speaker 2: We borrowed the Thirteenth Amendment.

1108
00:55:46,600 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 1: Yeah. Now they make some mild concessions to changing international

1109
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:54,239
Speaker 1: opinion during Salazar's term, but these are again minimal. In

1110
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:57,839
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty three, a law for governing Portuguese colonies INDs

1111
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:00,719
Speaker 1: the use of the term colonial empire stoppait. We're not

1112
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:03,040
Speaker 1: going to call ourselves an empire in the fifties, but

1113
00:56:03,080 --> 00:56:05,680
Speaker 1: we're going to keep using forced labor that will continue

1114
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 1: to be legal. And this new law notes that the

1115
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:10,960
Speaker 1: state quote can only compel indigenous people to work in

1116
00:56:10,960 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 1: public works of general interest to the community. An occupation

1117
00:56:14,480 --> 00:56:17,480
Speaker 1: whose results belong to them, in the execution of judicial

1118
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 1: decisions of a criminal nature, or to comply with tax obligations.

1119
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:23,640
Speaker 1: So we can't sell slaves. But if you're making something

1120
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:26,840
Speaker 1: that's good for you, we can make you do that work.

1121
00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:30,880
Speaker 1: Or if you get in criminal trouble, or if you

1122
00:56:30,920 --> 00:56:34,120
Speaker 1: owe money for taxes, then we can foresh the labor

1123
00:56:34,160 --> 00:56:39,120
Speaker 1: for the state. Right Totally different, much less evil, obviously,

1124
00:56:39,719 --> 00:56:44,800
Speaker 1: obviously way better now. The number one purpose of Portugal's

1125
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:47,279
Speaker 1: colonial empire under Salazar is the same as it had

1126
00:56:47,320 --> 00:56:51,000
Speaker 1: always been for Portugal, which is exploiting forced labor. As

1127
00:56:51,040 --> 00:56:54,560
Speaker 1: the financial drain for supporting the empire grew greater, Salazar

1128
00:56:54,640 --> 00:56:57,480
Speaker 1: pushed to increase the tax burden on Portugal's colonies to

1129
00:56:57,560 --> 00:57:01,120
Speaker 1: pay for military deployments and the ever increasing foreign staff

1130
00:57:01,160 --> 00:57:04,320
Speaker 1: needed to keep things going. He pushes an aggressive pension

1131
00:57:04,360 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 1: scheme that destroys the foreign cash reserves in Mozambique and

1132
00:57:07,560 --> 00:57:10,480
Speaker 1: other African colonies, which makes it impossible for them to

1133
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:13,400
Speaker 1: act independently because they have no foreign currency to do

1134
00:57:13,480 --> 00:57:16,520
Speaker 1: so with. He also pushes aggressive tariffs that make it

1135
00:57:16,560 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 1: painful to import or trade anything from countries other than Portugal.

1136
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:23,760
Speaker 1: Alan smith Wright's foreign transfers were first made available to

1137
00:57:23,800 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 1: those firms doing business with the mother country. Exchange for

1138
00:57:26,640 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 1: purchases from other markets could only be obtained after these

1139
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:31,840
Speaker 1: transactions had been completed, and only if the dealings with

1140
00:57:31,880 --> 00:57:35,400
Speaker 1: Portugal had not exhausted the available reserves. The result of

1141
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:37,680
Speaker 1: this policy was that the colonies were often well supplied

1142
00:57:37,720 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 1: with unnecessary commodities from Portugal while starving for essentials which

1143
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:43,680
Speaker 1: could only be obtained from elsewhere. There can be no

1144
00:57:43,760 --> 00:57:46,920
Speaker 1: doubt that sealas are placed great importance on the establishment

1145
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 1: and maintenance of this system, right that, Like, you don't

1146
00:57:50,640 --> 00:57:52,840
Speaker 1: have everything you need because you'd have to buy that

1147
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 1: from England or whoever. But you've got all this shit

1148
00:57:55,160 --> 00:57:57,440
Speaker 1: you don't need because it's something we make in Portugal

1149
00:57:57,440 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 1: and we don't make a lot right now.

1150
00:57:59,640 --> 00:58:03,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, they make a delicious seafood dish.

1151
00:58:03,680 --> 00:58:06,560
Speaker 1: And this is also bad for the overall Portuguese economy

1152
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:09,480
Speaker 1: because he is banning there's not a lot of Portuguese

1153
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:12,000
Speaker 1: companies that can take advantage of all of the resources

1154
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:15,120
Speaker 1: in Mozambique and Angola and these other possessions. And he's

1155
00:58:15,160 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 1: banning international companies from investing in these colonies because he's

1156
00:58:18,720 --> 00:58:22,600
Speaker 1: scared then their mother countries will take over, right, which

1157
00:58:22,640 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 1: is increasing the overall burden on Portugal and the overall

1158
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 1: burden on the government because there's less and less money

1159
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:30,560
Speaker 1: to be made doing this shit. Now. While all this

1160
00:58:30,680 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 1: is happening, and he is focused obsessively on maintaining this

1161
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 1: colonial empire, and this is an obsession for a lot

1162
00:58:36,720 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 1: of folks in the ruling class, Portuguese citizens don't give

1163
00:58:39,920 --> 00:58:42,600
Speaker 1: a shit. They're barely aware of the fact this is

1164
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 1: going on. Evincent the colonies don't make the news and

1165
00:58:45,960 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 1: Sellazzar's policies make sure that the country never realizes a

1166
00:58:48,920 --> 00:58:52,120
Speaker 1: lot of massive material gain from all of these possessions.

1167
00:58:52,560 --> 00:58:55,160
Speaker 1: These same policies that are meant to ensure her dominance

1168
00:58:55,200 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 1: in Mozambique and Angola, like make it just not worth

1169
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 1: it for the regular peoples. So they don't really see

1170
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:04,040
Speaker 1: why are we doing this? A lot of shit comes

1171
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:04,520
Speaker 1: to a hair.

1172
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:06,440
Speaker 2: They're like, hey, we're not doing great, but.

1173
00:59:06,560 --> 00:59:09,080
Speaker 1: This isn't helping us at all. Why are we doing this?

1174
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:12,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, you won't even let us legalize heroin yet.

1175
00:59:12,160 --> 00:59:14,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, come on man, Yeah, that's going to wait a

1176
00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:18,200
Speaker 1: couple of decades. So in nineteen sixty one, that's the

1177
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:22,160
Speaker 1: most disastrous year for Salazar's dictatorship since its founding. All

1178
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:26,440
Speaker 1: these simmering colonial conflicts across Portuguese possessions burst onto the

1179
00:59:26,480 --> 00:59:30,520
Speaker 1: main stage. The UPA, which is a liberation organization in Angola,

1180
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:33,320
Speaker 1: launches a series of attacks on white settler properties in

1181
00:59:33,360 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 1: northern Angola, killing several Portuguese civilians. And the month before that,

1182
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:40,680
Speaker 1: the MPLA, a Marxist group, had attacked the Luanda prison,

1183
00:59:40,800 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 1: killing seven guards. So you have these very public terrorists,

1184
00:59:44,320 --> 00:59:48,960
Speaker 1: you know, they call them terrorist attacks, and Salazar, his

1185
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:52,440
Speaker 1: control over the media, allows him to depict these explosions

1186
00:59:52,440 --> 00:59:54,760
Speaker 1: as in the words of one paper coming from the

1187
00:59:54,840 --> 00:59:57,360
Speaker 1: exterior that tries to disturb the lives of white and

1188
00:59:57,400 --> 01:00:00,760
Speaker 1: black people in the peaceful land of Angola. They're outside agitators,

1189
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:02,480
Speaker 1: right man.

1190
01:00:02,560 --> 01:00:04,800
Speaker 2: It's like there's some sort of playbook that gives me.

1191
01:00:04,840 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 1: It's like it's always the same fucking playbook. And that

1192
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:10,000
Speaker 1: he claims that, like, all we're trying to do is

1193
01:00:10,080 --> 01:00:12,560
Speaker 1: keep things nice for all of our white and black citizens,

1194
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:15,520
Speaker 1: who we all love equally, right, But any claims to

1195
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:20,040
Speaker 1: enlightened racial attitudes by this lusotropicalist regime are discarded at

1196
01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:22,920
Speaker 1: this point, as this article by Julia Gario for the

1197
01:00:22,960 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 1: journal Violence against Women's summarizes the massacres of white settlers

1198
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:29,520
Speaker 1: and their workers in northern Angola in nineteen sixty one.

1199
01:00:29,600 --> 01:00:31,920
Speaker 1: The events that, according to the Portuguese government, triggered the

1200
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:35,800
Speaker 1: war were exhaustively photographed by embedded journalists and army officers.

1201
01:00:36,120 --> 01:00:38,320
Speaker 1: Photos of the corpses of raped white women and dead

1202
01:00:38,320 --> 01:00:41,760
Speaker 1: babies were reproduced in the national media. The Lisbon Society

1203
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:44,960
Speaker 1: of Geography organized an exhibition to expose the selection of

1204
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:47,120
Speaker 1: the pictures to the public, which was quite successful.

1205
01:00:47,400 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 2: The white they're reading the dogs.

1206
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:52,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're eating the dogs, the dog eaters. The wide

1207
01:00:52,040 --> 01:00:54,840
Speaker 1: circulation of these pictures in Portugal was intended to justify

1208
01:00:54,880 --> 01:00:58,120
Speaker 1: the deployment of troops abroad and delegitimize anti colonial movements

1209
01:00:58,160 --> 01:01:01,280
Speaker 1: and communism. The Portuguese ambag to the United Nations use

1210
01:01:01,320 --> 01:01:04,000
Speaker 1: the images to denounce the savagery of terrorists who cross

1211
01:01:04,080 --> 01:01:06,680
Speaker 1: the northern border of Angola to behead, rape and mutilate

1212
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:10,080
Speaker 1: our women. These images, where a white woman's body symbolizes

1213
01:01:10,120 --> 01:01:13,640
Speaker 1: white innocence threatened by African savagery function to construct a

1214
01:01:13,680 --> 01:01:17,720
Speaker 1: retaliatory narrative of Portuguese wartime victimhood. As a call to arms,

1215
01:01:17,760 --> 01:01:20,840
Speaker 1: embedded and incendiary words. Their circulation was intended to prevent

1216
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:24,280
Speaker 1: any empathy with anti colonial movements and hence legitimize any

1217
01:01:24,280 --> 01:01:28,400
Speaker 1: form of violence employed against them. Tail as old as time,

1218
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:32,880
Speaker 1: they we we know, yeah, we've seen it.

1219
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:35,800
Speaker 2: You know what's happening. We've we've seen it now.

1220
01:01:36,000 --> 01:01:38,680
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, it continues to happen. It's not that you

1221
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:41,160
Speaker 1: never change the playbook, because it works pretty.

1222
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:44,160
Speaker 2: Well for a while. People are real fucking dumb. Yeah people,

1223
01:01:44,560 --> 01:01:49,920
Speaker 2: you've met the personation and what a bunch of fucking dances.

1224
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:53,320
Speaker 1: It's never does It doesn't work in the long run, though, right,

1225
01:01:53,400 --> 01:01:56,880
Speaker 1: because this is impossible to contain and it's impossible to

1226
01:01:57,000 --> 01:01:59,720
Speaker 1: hold on to these possessions when you get increased the

1227
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:04,640
Speaker 1: poritarian right, it's a stopgap. So unrest continues throughout the year,

1228
01:02:04,680 --> 01:02:08,000
Speaker 1: and Salazar gets increasingly desperate to contain it. He tries

1229
01:02:08,040 --> 01:02:12,200
Speaker 1: he extends Portuguese citizenship across the colonial populations, is kind

1230
01:02:12,200 --> 01:02:15,520
Speaker 1: of like look your citizens now, but his primary tactic

1231
01:02:15,600 --> 01:02:18,760
Speaker 1: is violence, and sexualized violence against white women is used

1232
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:22,360
Speaker 1: as a justification for this expensive and violent military response,

1233
01:02:22,800 --> 01:02:25,920
Speaker 1: and in the same vein sexualized violence against Stanggolan's becomes

1234
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:29,000
Speaker 1: a popular tactic of the military for the next decade.

1235
01:02:29,040 --> 01:02:32,320
Speaker 1: As the Portuguese colonial war wears on, African women are

1236
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:37,920
Speaker 1: systematically raped by Portuguese occupying soldiers. Obviously, this doesn't stop

1237
01:02:37,960 --> 01:02:41,800
Speaker 1: people from being angry at Portugal. The fire only spreads

1238
01:02:42,640 --> 01:02:45,400
Speaker 1: and it goes and moves out from Angola. As Portuguese

1239
01:02:45,440 --> 01:02:47,640
Speaker 1: weakness is made manifest, they lose more and more of

1240
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:51,360
Speaker 1: Salazar's prize possessions. Goa, which had been Portuguese property for

1241
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:54,680
Speaker 1: four hundred years, is taken by a newly independent India

1242
01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:59,400
Speaker 1: Intocember of nineteen sixty one. Yeah, now we're not going

1243
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:04,320
Speaker 1: to get credit. Well, I mean we're at yeah. Yeah.

1244
01:03:04,560 --> 01:03:08,520
Speaker 1: So Salazar orders his men, who are surrounded in the

1245
01:03:08,520 --> 01:03:10,840
Speaker 1: middle of India, to fight to the death, but his

1246
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:14,680
Speaker 1: own governor general is like, nah, I don't think we

1247
01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:15,720
Speaker 1: can win this one.

1248
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:18,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're gonna do that, man, Yeah.

1249
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:21,240
Speaker 1: No, no, thank you, You're you're all the way at Lisbon. Man,

1250
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:24,280
Speaker 1: you don't know how surrounded, how big India is.

1251
01:03:25,040 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 2: I've seen comin any.

1252
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:30,080
Speaker 1: Guys here, what are you talking about? And you go

1253
01:03:30,120 --> 01:03:33,920
Speaker 1: to school, so the truth of this situation cannot be

1254
01:03:34,000 --> 01:03:36,760
Speaker 1: allowed to get out to the populace. Salazar's Minister of

1255
01:03:36,760 --> 01:03:39,200
Speaker 1: the Army declared, we are today and will be tomorrow

1256
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:42,520
Speaker 1: in India and Africa as long lived the eternal Portugal.

1257
01:03:43,160 --> 01:03:46,680
Speaker 1: So that's not how things are gonna work out. But

1258
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:50,000
Speaker 1: for a while, at least Salas our secret police and

1259
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:53,840
Speaker 1: this repression regime he's built sweep into action in Lisbon. Right,

1260
01:03:53,880 --> 01:03:56,560
Speaker 1: we can at least pretend things are good in Lisbon,

1261
01:03:57,200 --> 01:03:59,240
Speaker 1: and you get some context about what life is like

1262
01:03:59,320 --> 01:04:01,640
Speaker 1: in Lisbon during this period of time. I want to

1263
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:04,040
Speaker 1: read you parts of an article by Dennis Redmont, and

1264
01:04:04,080 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 1: Redmont was an AP reporter station in Rodman, an AP

1265
01:04:09,440 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 1: reporter station in Lisbon from sixty five to sixty seven,

1266
01:04:12,680 --> 01:04:15,440
Speaker 1: and he covers the Portuguese Colonial War extensively, as well

1267
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:19,800
Speaker 1: as this rising youth movement against the war. In nineteen

1268
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:23,560
Speaker 1: sixty six, and in sixty six, more drafted Portuguese soldiers

1269
01:04:23,640 --> 01:04:27,080
Speaker 1: die in their colonial possessions than Americans die in Vietnam. Right,

1270
01:04:27,120 --> 01:04:30,800
Speaker 1: that's the scale of problem this is for Portugal. That year,

1271
01:04:31,440 --> 01:04:34,920
Speaker 1: he publishes several articles about the disastrous conduct of the

1272
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:38,520
Speaker 1: military during what had become a hopeless conflict. These articles

1273
01:04:38,520 --> 01:04:41,480
Speaker 1: began to spread among student protesters and earned him the

1274
01:04:41,480 --> 01:04:44,840
Speaker 1: attention of Salazar's Pide, which is what the secret police

1275
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:48,120
Speaker 1: is called now. He writes in an article for Politico,

1276
01:04:48,480 --> 01:04:51,840
Speaker 1: my mail was steamed open, my phone conversations were meticulously

1277
01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:54,600
Speaker 1: recorded and translated. A squad of eight goons tried to

1278
01:04:54,600 --> 01:04:57,320
Speaker 1: grab me on Happiness Square at my associated press office

1279
01:04:57,320 --> 01:05:00,560
Speaker 1: in Lisbon, before I found refuge at the US embassy. Later,

1280
01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:03,680
Speaker 1: I was personally interrogated by the head of Portugal's political police,

1281
01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:06,960
Speaker 1: which had assassinated some of its opponents, jailed and tortured others.

1282
01:05:07,280 --> 01:05:09,760
Speaker 1: The dossier contained the telex reports I had sent out

1283
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:12,720
Speaker 1: into the world, reports of university students being mistreated by

1284
01:05:12,720 --> 01:05:15,840
Speaker 1: political police because of their struggle for greater freedom and democracy.

1285
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:19,479
Speaker 1: Censorship was so prevalent the government designated minders to every

1286
01:05:19,480 --> 01:05:22,680
Speaker 1: local newspaper who excited any reference to student unrest or

1287
01:05:22,680 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 1: guerrilla warfare in Africa, and even flagged any literary articles

1288
01:05:26,080 --> 01:05:29,000
Speaker 1: deemed unfavorable to the regime. And one of the things

1289
01:05:29,080 --> 01:05:31,640
Speaker 1: this guy notes is that none of the local press

1290
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:35,800
Speaker 1: is useful, but the regime is not totalitarian enough that

1291
01:05:35,840 --> 01:05:40,240
Speaker 1: you can't buy foreign There's always foreign newspapers available at

1292
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:42,440
Speaker 1: the market and Lisbon right, even if they have to

1293
01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:45,360
Speaker 1: be smuggled in, so people are still able to figure

1294
01:05:45,400 --> 01:05:49,320
Speaker 1: out how badly the overseas war is going, and unrest

1295
01:05:49,360 --> 01:05:52,160
Speaker 1: is just building and building as the pide is getting

1296
01:05:52,200 --> 01:05:55,520
Speaker 1: more and more violent to crack down on things. Duarte

1297
01:05:55,640 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 1: summarizes this cracked down in her article Quote. On April

1298
01:05:59,120 --> 01:06:02,560
Speaker 1: twenty first, nineteen sixty five, Maria Mattos was arrested for

1299
01:06:02,600 --> 01:06:05,000
Speaker 1: activities against the security of the state. She was stripped,

1300
01:06:05,080 --> 01:06:07,880
Speaker 1: naked and beaten by male and female agents. By the

1301
01:06:07,880 --> 01:06:10,720
Speaker 1: third day of torture, without sleeping, she began to have hallucinations,

1302
01:06:10,920 --> 01:06:13,280
Speaker 1: spiders in the legs of a table, walls moving, and

1303
01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:16,080
Speaker 1: heard piercing screams of people being tortured. At the end

1304
01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:18,400
Speaker 1: of the episode, an agent started shooting pictures and a

1305
01:06:18,400 --> 01:06:21,080
Speaker 1: young male agent homed to typical Portuguese Catholic song in

1306
01:06:21,120 --> 01:06:24,000
Speaker 1: honor of the Virgin Mary, entitled on the thirteenth of May.

1307
01:06:24,360 --> 01:06:27,240
Speaker 1: The intention is clear to humiliate and taunt the victim,

1308
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:30,000
Speaker 1: taking advantage of their religious connotations of the song to

1309
01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:33,040
Speaker 1: Mocker for being a communist and an atheist. In nineteen

1310
01:06:33,080 --> 01:06:36,920
Speaker 1: seventy three, another prisoner, Pedro Baptista, suffered the statue torture

1311
01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:39,720
Speaker 1: for a week and heard sounds of protest songs, serenades,

1312
01:06:39,760 --> 01:06:42,240
Speaker 1: and photos outside the prison. At first, he thought they

1313
01:06:42,240 --> 01:06:44,960
Speaker 1: were an action of solidarity because of his situation, but

1314
01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:47,120
Speaker 1: he later concluded that they were an assemblage of pre

1315
01:06:47,240 --> 01:06:53,439
Speaker 1: recorded sounds. So there shoulders were shredded, jacked. But also

1316
01:06:53,480 --> 01:06:55,800
Speaker 1: what you see here they're doing is like they're playing

1317
01:06:55,840 --> 01:06:58,600
Speaker 1: fake protest music to prisoners to make them think that

1318
01:06:58,680 --> 01:07:03,160
Speaker 1: their friends are out there, like the revolution is gaining steam,

1319
01:07:03,400 --> 01:07:05,920
Speaker 1: and that that's a play, right, like that there's not

1320
01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 1: actually anything going on outside of the prison, And when

1321
01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:11,320
Speaker 1: people realize that, it kind of breaks them further. Even

1322
01:07:11,360 --> 01:07:13,640
Speaker 1: though the regime is weakening in this period.

1323
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:17,000
Speaker 2: It's not cool that they did that, but that's a

1324
01:07:17,040 --> 01:07:17,560
Speaker 2: good move.

1325
01:07:18,160 --> 01:07:20,280
Speaker 1: It's a smart move. You know, it works for a

1326
01:07:20,320 --> 01:07:23,320
Speaker 1: little while. Like all of this stuff. Now, one of

1327
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:25,960
Speaker 1: Salazar's big calls in the late sixties is to ally

1328
01:07:26,000 --> 01:07:29,640
Speaker 1: with Rhodesia. He becomes like one of the few countries

1329
01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:33,880
Speaker 1: that will recognize the white supremacist regime there when it's fighting,

1330
01:07:33,920 --> 01:07:37,840
Speaker 1: it's losing war in order to maintain this white supremacist state.

1331
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:41,480
Speaker 1: And they provide, they really allow Rhodesia to extend their

1332
01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:44,880
Speaker 1: time and power by giving them access to international markets.

1333
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:48,480
Speaker 1: Rhodesia can sell goods to Mozambique and will export Rhodesian

1334
01:07:48,480 --> 01:07:52,000
Speaker 1: goods through Mozambique, which does extend the brutal colonial war

1335
01:07:52,040 --> 01:07:55,120
Speaker 1: in Rhodesia by a period of time. None of this, though,

1336
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:58,120
Speaker 1: is enough to stop the winds of change blowing through Africa,

1337
01:07:58,320 --> 01:08:00,360
Speaker 1: nor is it enough to stop the ravages of time

1338
01:08:00,400 --> 01:08:03,640
Speaker 1: from impacting Salazar. In nineteen sixty eight, he suffered a

1339
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:06,000
Speaker 1: cerebral hemorrhage, which may have happened when he fell from

1340
01:08:06,040 --> 01:08:09,200
Speaker 1: a chair or in the bath right either way, he

1341
01:08:09,280 --> 01:08:11,840
Speaker 1: declines rapidly and he has to be put into a coma.

1342
01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:15,200
Speaker 1: Now naturally, if he's in a coma, he can't be

1343
01:08:15,240 --> 01:08:18,519
Speaker 1: the dictator anymore, so his subordinates takeover and they stop married.

1344
01:08:18,600 --> 01:08:20,559
Speaker 2: I believe you've never seen the movie Dave.

1345
01:08:21,080 --> 01:08:23,559
Speaker 1: Yeah, is that what Dave's about?

1346
01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:28,760
Speaker 2: You got to get a Portuguese Sigourney Weaver Hm in there,

1347
01:08:28,840 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 2: and then you got to just find another guy that

1348
01:08:30,920 --> 01:08:31,760
Speaker 2: looks just like him.

1349
01:08:32,000 --> 01:08:34,840
Speaker 1: That's actually what they do. So this is very fun.

1350
01:08:36,200 --> 01:08:39,200
Speaker 1: He comes out of his coma after a month and

1351
01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:41,200
Speaker 1: these guys who've been running things while he's been the

1352
01:08:41,240 --> 01:08:45,200
Speaker 1: coma are like, he's too old. Let's just lie. So

1353
01:08:45,240 --> 01:08:48,280
Speaker 1: they they pretend he's still running the country, and he

1354
01:08:48,320 --> 01:08:50,840
Speaker 1: gets to like sign paperwork and give out orders, and

1355
01:08:50,840 --> 01:08:54,160
Speaker 1: everyone's just like, this is definitely what's happening. You're too

1356
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:58,240
Speaker 1: sick to leave, right, You're still in charge absolutely, And

1357
01:08:58,320 --> 01:09:00,799
Speaker 1: so for the last two years of his life, Salazar

1358
01:09:00,880 --> 01:09:03,799
Speaker 1: has no power, but he believes he's running the country

1359
01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:07,320
Speaker 1: because they're just pretending, right, well, they're doing things for it.

1360
01:09:07,320 --> 01:09:09,719
Speaker 2: It's like this sad end of a movie that takes

1361
01:09:09,720 --> 01:09:11,920
Speaker 2: place in like Elizabethan, England or something.

1362
01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:14,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, where they're just like faking yeah, Like yeah, buddy,

1363
01:09:14,520 --> 01:09:18,040
Speaker 1: you're still running things absolutely, Like why don't you sign

1364
01:09:18,120 --> 01:09:20,839
Speaker 1: some more documents? Don't go outside?

1365
01:09:21,360 --> 01:09:24,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like like like a crazy guy in a

1366
01:09:24,120 --> 01:09:28,320
Speaker 2: Napoleon hat, Yeah, moving pieces across a map zambik.

1367
01:09:28,640 --> 01:09:30,160
Speaker 1: We're still holding on to all of that.

1368
01:09:30,320 --> 01:09:32,680
Speaker 2: Really, well, that's like a really funny thing to have

1369
01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:35,080
Speaker 2: happen in the age where like t is around.

1370
01:09:35,320 --> 01:09:37,719
Speaker 1: It's like a reverse weekend at Bernies where he's still

1371
01:09:37,720 --> 01:09:42,599
Speaker 1: alive technically, but yeah, so he continues to believe he's

1372
01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:45,280
Speaker 1: in charge until his death on July twenty seventh of

1373
01:09:45,400 --> 01:09:49,160
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy. His successors try to hold things together, but

1374
01:09:49,200 --> 01:09:52,720
Speaker 1: the calamitous Colonial Wars had brit acadre of leftist military

1375
01:09:52,720 --> 01:09:55,759
Speaker 1: officers who are really unhappy with how the government's working,

1376
01:09:56,200 --> 01:09:58,519
Speaker 1: and in April of nineteen seventy four, they launched the

1377
01:09:58,600 --> 01:10:02,719
Speaker 1: mostly peaceful Carnation Revolution, which overthrows the regime and returns

1378
01:10:02,720 --> 01:10:06,439
Speaker 1: democracy to Portugal. And that's where you know, there's more

1379
01:10:06,479 --> 01:10:09,000
Speaker 1: going on in Portuguese politics since then than just that,

1380
01:10:09,080 --> 01:10:14,479
Speaker 1: but like that's how the dictatorship ends, right, Yeah, yeah, So.

1381
01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:16,160
Speaker 2: I'd also like to add that this is a man

1382
01:10:16,160 --> 01:10:18,479
Speaker 2: that had two days of mourning for Hitler.

1383
01:10:18,880 --> 01:10:21,360
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, this is this is the guy who's yeah,

1384
01:10:21,479 --> 01:10:23,040
Speaker 1: like really bummed about that.

1385
01:10:23,640 --> 01:10:24,880
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1386
01:10:24,920 --> 01:10:28,080
Speaker 1: And you know, but people says part of why democracy

1387
01:10:28,160 --> 01:10:33,040
Speaker 1: is kind of able to like reform relatively easily and

1388
01:10:33,080 --> 01:10:34,640
Speaker 1: more successfully than in a lot of areas in the

1389
01:10:34,640 --> 01:10:38,320
Speaker 1: wake of the dictatorship is he never completely eliminated all

1390
01:10:38,360 --> 01:10:41,599
Speaker 1: of the like trappings of democracy. So there were these

1391
01:10:41,680 --> 01:10:45,120
Speaker 1: institutions that continued to exist under him that it's just

1392
01:10:45,160 --> 01:10:48,439
Speaker 1: a matter of like letting them have actual power again. Yeah,

1393
01:10:48,640 --> 01:10:51,120
Speaker 1: but it's also like not like he was overthrown really,

1394
01:10:51,160 --> 01:10:54,400
Speaker 1: like no, no, I know the Carnation Revolution's going to

1395
01:10:54,400 --> 01:10:57,439
Speaker 1: be happening. Yes, that happened in seventy four, and yeah,

1396
01:10:57,479 --> 01:11:00,200
Speaker 1: that is like an overthrowing. But it's like not, but

1397
01:11:00,400 --> 01:11:01,759
Speaker 1: there's not like fighting.

1398
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:03,920
Speaker 2: Right. But if you're like, oh, can you believe he

1399
01:11:04,439 --> 01:11:06,160
Speaker 2: out played himself, it's like, I don't know, man, he

1400
01:11:06,320 --> 01:11:07,560
Speaker 2: just went into a coma.

1401
01:11:07,720 --> 01:11:11,280
Speaker 1: Yeah he kind of won. Unfortunately he just ended by

1402
01:11:11,439 --> 01:11:15,920
Speaker 1: being dead. Yeah. Yeah, he lives out his fucking days, right,

1403
01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:19,400
Speaker 1: he fucking he did it. Yeah, he does. The only

1404
01:11:19,439 --> 01:11:21,519
Speaker 1: win he you kind of get against him is he's

1405
01:11:21,520 --> 01:11:25,400
Speaker 1: aware the colonial empire is collapsing, right, you know, he

1406
01:11:25,680 --> 01:11:28,320
Speaker 1: he's not. He's not unaware of the fact that this

1407
01:11:28,360 --> 01:11:31,000
Speaker 1: isn't working as well as he wants it to. But

1408
01:11:31,040 --> 01:11:34,920
Speaker 1: he never really sees that it's it's fallen out, Like

1409
01:11:35,120 --> 01:11:37,519
Speaker 1: he never really lives for everything to collapse entirely. He

1410
01:11:37,560 --> 01:11:40,439
Speaker 1: doesn't see Portugal having a life without him, which is

1411
01:11:40,479 --> 01:11:42,679
Speaker 1: probably mostly what he wanted, right.

1412
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:46,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, He's like, you guys can't live without me? Yeah,

1413
01:11:46,720 --> 01:11:50,120
Speaker 2: like we can and we will. Yeah, they'll do just fine.

1414
01:11:50,760 --> 01:11:55,000
Speaker 2: But unfortunately, yeah, a bum makes for the balanced budget.

1415
01:11:55,439 --> 01:12:00,479
Speaker 1: Yeah. Anyway, that's the story of Sala's art. Kind of

1416
01:12:00,520 --> 01:12:03,160
Speaker 1: a dicky, kind of a dick, not a nice man.

1417
01:12:03,200 --> 01:12:04,640
Speaker 2: I want to go on a limb and say, this

1418
01:12:04,680 --> 01:12:05,920
Speaker 2: guy maybe a bit of a no.

1419
01:12:05,920 --> 01:12:11,000
Speaker 1: Good nick, maybe a douche. Yeah, maybe sucked, but pretty

1420
01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:13,800
Speaker 1: good at being a dictator. Unfortunately, on a technical level,

1421
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:18,599
Speaker 1: again he gets that Oscar. Good for him, Good for him? Well, Jeff,

1422
01:12:18,720 --> 01:12:21,360
Speaker 1: on a technical level, do you want to plug any

1423
01:12:21,400 --> 01:12:22,280
Speaker 1: of your pluggables here?

1424
01:12:22,840 --> 01:12:24,960
Speaker 2: I have a lot of stuff, folks. I do really

1425
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:28,240
Speaker 2: cool stuff. My name is Jeff May and google Jeff

1426
01:12:28,280 --> 01:12:31,559
Speaker 2: May podcast if you want, but over at patreon dot

1427
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:34,080
Speaker 2: com slash Jeff May. I have shows like Jeff Has

1428
01:12:34,080 --> 01:12:37,280
Speaker 2: Cool Friends, Nerd and Nerd which end up going for free.

1429
01:12:37,720 --> 01:12:40,160
Speaker 2: But those both you know, you get early excess on

1430
01:12:40,160 --> 01:12:44,280
Speaker 2: sensit episode the whole the Patreon benefits, right. I also

1431
01:12:44,320 --> 01:12:48,360
Speaker 2: do a show called The Monthly Flow with and Drake Gazetta.

1432
01:12:48,400 --> 01:12:51,680
Speaker 2: I also do Tom and Jeff watch Batman with Gamefully

1433
01:12:51,760 --> 01:12:55,200
Speaker 2: Unemployed Network. I do all the stuff on the you

1434
01:12:55,240 --> 01:12:57,400
Speaker 2: don't even like this network with Adam Todd Brown and

1435
01:12:57,920 --> 01:13:02,080
Speaker 2: I have a great, great channel on YouTube called Jeff

1436
01:13:02,120 --> 01:13:04,880
Speaker 2: Has Cool Cards where I open trading cards on camera

1437
01:13:04,920 --> 01:13:07,280
Speaker 2: and we're like, oh, that's neat, and people like that,

1438
01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:09,040
Speaker 2: and I do, and then I mail them out to

1439
01:13:09,080 --> 01:13:12,920
Speaker 2: my patrons because that's nice. I run a stand up

1440
01:13:12,920 --> 01:13:15,719
Speaker 2: comedy show the second Friday of every month that blasts

1441
01:13:15,800 --> 01:13:19,000
Speaker 2: the past on Magnolia in Burbank, California. So come check

1442
01:13:19,080 --> 01:13:21,480
Speaker 2: that out. And I'm on the socials.

1443
01:13:22,160 --> 01:13:27,160
Speaker 1: Check him out. Hey, they're Jeff that Yeah, yeah, excellent. Well, everybody,

1444
01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:31,280
Speaker 1: this has been Behind the Bastards, a podcast that you've

1445
01:13:31,400 --> 01:13:34,320
Speaker 1: just listened to, and now you'll listen to more of it,

1446
01:13:34,560 --> 01:13:37,679
Speaker 1: you know. Now you'll listen to more of it. Yeah,

1447
01:13:37,840 --> 01:13:40,360
Speaker 1: keep doing it, keep listening to it, and we'll keep

1448
01:13:40,360 --> 01:13:44,080
Speaker 1: telling you about guys who sucked. Sometimes in Portugal, sometimes

1449
01:13:44,080 --> 01:13:45,559
Speaker 1: in other places.

1450
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:46,599
Speaker 2: A lady that sucks.

1451
01:13:46,880 --> 01:13:49,840
Speaker 1: It's occasionally a lady. Yeah, we get ladies on this

1452
01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:50,840
Speaker 1: show every now and.

1453
01:13:50,800 --> 01:13:53,439
Speaker 2: Then, sucky lady every once in a while, A couple

1454
01:13:53,439 --> 01:13:56,040
Speaker 2: of them, a couple of them, a bathory showing up everyone.

1455
01:13:56,160 --> 01:13:58,280
Speaker 1: Women out out there, you know, if you want to

1456
01:13:58,280 --> 01:14:00,920
Speaker 1: be on behind the Bastards take over our country and

1457
01:14:01,000 --> 01:14:03,519
Speaker 1: kill hundreds of thousands of people. You know, create your

1458
01:14:03,520 --> 01:14:04,400
Speaker 1: own torture police.

1459
01:14:04,600 --> 01:14:07,200
Speaker 2: You know that women have been strong, They're stronger than ever.

1460
01:14:07,680 --> 01:14:10,479
Speaker 2: That's right, you know, initiative ladies, you gotta dictate.

1461
01:14:10,960 --> 01:14:14,479
Speaker 1: Yeah, just murders, sell, get people to inject bleach into

1462
01:14:14,520 --> 01:14:16,120
Speaker 1: their children. You know you can do it.

1463
01:14:16,120 --> 01:14:20,000
Speaker 3: I've the podcasts over no, always with you, but No.

1464
01:14:23,400 --> 01:14:26,080
Speaker 3: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1465
01:14:26,439 --> 01:14:29,080
Speaker 3: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1466
01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:33,120
Speaker 3: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1467
01:14:33,200 --> 01:14:35,680
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1468
01:14:35,920 --> 01:14:39,320
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes

1469
01:14:39,640 --> 01:14:41,120
Speaker 1: every Wednesday and Friday.

1470
01:14:41,439 --> 01:14:45,200
Speaker 3: Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash at Behind

1471
01:14:45,200 --> 01:14:45,880
Speaker 3: the Bastards