WEBVTT - Michelle Zauner of Japanese Breakfast 0:00:15.436 --> 0:00:25.036 Pushkin. Michelle's Honor is the lead singer and creative force 0:00:25.156 --> 0:00:29.516 behind the indie dream pop band Japanese Breakfast. This year, 0:00:29.636 --> 0:00:33.476 Zanna released a series of career defining projects that propelled 0:00:33.476 --> 0:00:54.236 her band to widespread critical acclaim. Earlier this year, Zanna 0:00:54.316 --> 0:00:58.116 released her New York Times bestselling memoir, The Wildly Popular 0:00:58.356 --> 0:01:01.396 Crying in h Mark. The book, which began as a 0:01:01.436 --> 0:01:04.876 New Yorker essay, has since been optioned by MGM O'Ryan 0:01:05.076 --> 0:01:09.556 for a film adaptation. The book details Honor's time caring 0:01:09.556 --> 0:01:12.516 for her cancer stricken mother in the period after her 0:01:12.556 --> 0:01:17.556 mom's death when Michelle recorded Japanese Breakfast sublime debut Psychopon. 0:01:18.516 --> 0:01:22.196 Shortly after Michelle's book came out, Japanese Breakfast released their 0:01:22.236 --> 0:01:26.036 third and most ambitious album, Jubilee. It has been named 0:01:26.076 --> 0:01:27.756 one of the best albums of the year by The 0:01:27.796 --> 0:01:32.556 Wall Street Journal and PR and Billboard. On today's episode, 0:01:32.756 --> 0:01:36.076 Broken Record producer Lea Rose talks to Michell's Honor about 0:01:36.116 --> 0:01:39.476 her triumphant year and exactly how big she wants her 0:01:39.516 --> 0:01:43.356 band to become. Zanner also talks about casting the soprano 0:01:43.436 --> 0:01:47.116 star Michael Imperioli in her video for Savage good Boy, 0:01:47.316 --> 0:01:49.596 and why she ended up going a little too far 0:01:49.836 --> 0:01:56.476 in the video's neck biting scene. This is broken record 0:01:56.676 --> 0:02:04.636 liner notes for the digital age. I'm justin Richmondson. Here's 0:02:04.716 --> 0:02:08.476 Leah Rose with Michelle's honor. You've had a really big 0:02:08.596 --> 0:02:12.116 year this year. You released Crying in h Mark in April, 0:02:12.316 --> 0:02:14.836 it's been on the New York Times bestseller list for 0:02:15.116 --> 0:02:19.156 several weeks, and then your third album, Jubilee in June, 0:02:19.596 --> 0:02:22.996 and the album's doing really well. Yeah. Are you thinking 0:02:23.036 --> 0:02:26.196 about your next writing project or is it more of 0:02:26.236 --> 0:02:30.196 a next album? Yeah? I feel pretty fried, to be honest. 0:02:30.596 --> 0:02:33.276 It was a really overwhelming year and I'm like so 0:02:33.436 --> 0:02:38.436 relieved and happy with the response. It's just definitely above 0:02:38.516 --> 0:02:43.276 and beyond all expectation the best way. But for the 0:02:43.356 --> 0:02:47.076 last seven years, really had a couple projects in the 0:02:47.116 --> 0:02:49.996 works really grounding me. And I do have the screenplay 0:02:50.036 --> 0:02:52.076 for Crying in h Mark, but that kind of feels 0:02:52.076 --> 0:02:56.596 like I'm revisiting something that I've worked on before. So yeah, 0:02:56.636 --> 0:02:58.676 I don't know. I was just telling my husband, I 0:02:58.716 --> 0:03:03.036 feel just really lazy because like for the first time, 0:03:03.076 --> 0:03:05.876 I'm just like I don't have this drive to juggle 0:03:05.956 --> 0:03:08.196 three projects the way that I did for the past 0:03:08.196 --> 0:03:10.516 few years, and I have a little bit of guilt 0:03:10.596 --> 0:03:12.676 that I'm just like, I just like, don't I want 0:03:12.716 --> 0:03:17.356 to just eat at restaurants and like chill for a while. Yeah. 0:03:17.356 --> 0:03:18.916 I heard you say that you're in a stage right 0:03:18.956 --> 0:03:20.916 now where you're just sort of an empty vessel and 0:03:20.956 --> 0:03:23.996 you're just looking around and you're thinking. So when you 0:03:24.036 --> 0:03:27.956 first started out and you were in some of your 0:03:27.956 --> 0:03:29.996 early bands and you would play music for your mom 0:03:30.076 --> 0:03:32.196 or you would talk to your mom about it, it 0:03:32.676 --> 0:03:35.836 seemed like she hoped it was just a passing phase 0:03:36.156 --> 0:03:38.556 and you would kind of come to your senses and 0:03:38.716 --> 0:03:41.916 get a nice, stable job. That did happen for a 0:03:41.956 --> 0:03:45.316 period of time after your mom passed away, you know, 0:03:45.396 --> 0:03:48.436 once things started to pick up with Psychopomp. Did you 0:03:48.516 --> 0:03:51.796 ever consider just giving it all up for that reason? Yeah, 0:03:51.876 --> 0:03:53.796 I think that was part of what moving to New 0:03:53.876 --> 0:03:57.276 York and getting a job was was just like part 0:03:57.316 --> 0:03:59.356 of it was like, I'm twenty five and if it 0:03:59.396 --> 0:04:02.596 hasn't happened for me yet after almost ten years of 0:04:02.676 --> 0:04:05.476 doing the grind, that's probably not going to happen, you know, 0:04:05.556 --> 0:04:08.156 and it's time to give it up. I'd never actually 0:04:08.196 --> 0:04:12.596 like wore to nine to five job without something else 0:04:12.636 --> 0:04:17.396 on the backburner creatively, and trying to do that very 0:04:17.476 --> 0:04:22.436 quickly revealed that I just feel so completely unfulfilled by 0:04:22.476 --> 0:04:25.236 that lifestyle. You know. I would work from in New York, 0:04:25.316 --> 0:04:27.036 like a nine to five job really is like eight 0:04:27.036 --> 0:04:30.596 to seven, and I would eat my little sweet green 0:04:30.716 --> 0:04:34.516 at my computer like everyone else, and I would leave 0:04:34.596 --> 0:04:37.396 just feeling like I did nothing. I just felt so 0:04:37.476 --> 0:04:41.436 completely unfulfilled every day. And even still when I did that, 0:04:41.476 --> 0:04:43.836 I realized, like, Okay, I need some kind of project, 0:04:43.876 --> 0:04:46.516 and I would go to Crown Heights like after work 0:04:46.516 --> 0:04:50.316 at seven, drive in rush hour traffic mix with Ned 0:04:50.356 --> 0:04:53.116 Eisenberg from like eight to midnight, and then go to 0:04:53.156 --> 0:04:55.516 bed because I just felt like I couldn't I couldn't 0:04:55.556 --> 0:04:59.076 sleep without doing something that day. And then I just 0:04:59.116 --> 0:05:02.436 got very, very lucky and really won the lottery with 0:05:02.596 --> 0:05:05.156 that album. Can you talk a little bit about how 0:05:05.196 --> 0:05:09.076 you started to record Psychopomp and how you eventually were 0:05:09.156 --> 0:05:11.156 able to get that out in the world. So my 0:05:11.196 --> 0:05:13.996 mom passed away in October twenty fourteen, and then I 0:05:13.996 --> 0:05:18.476 would say probably in December of that year. I stayed 0:05:18.516 --> 0:05:20.556 behind in Eugene for another six months to kind of 0:05:20.596 --> 0:05:23.276 just make sure that my dad was okay mentally and 0:05:23.916 --> 0:05:25.796 help him sort of pack up this house that they 0:05:25.796 --> 0:05:29.516 lived in for you know, fifteen years. And you know, 0:05:29.596 --> 0:05:31.796 it's just a really dark period of my life where 0:05:31.956 --> 0:05:34.116 I was just stuck in this house and in the 0:05:34.156 --> 0:05:38.156 woods with my dad's like oh the furniture and the decorations, 0:05:38.196 --> 0:05:40.276 where my mom's had to fold her clothes and put 0:05:40.276 --> 0:05:43.556 them away and sell things. It was just a really horrible, 0:05:44.076 --> 0:05:47.156 darkest period of my life. And you know, I needed 0:05:47.196 --> 0:05:50.556 like a little project to just like figure out what 0:05:50.596 --> 0:05:52.716 was going on. And there was this little shed at 0:05:52.716 --> 0:05:54.796 the bottom of the property my parents had, like you know, 0:05:55.196 --> 0:05:58.836 three to five acres like in the forest. When I 0:05:58.916 --> 0:06:00.516 was done for the day, I would like go down 0:06:00.516 --> 0:06:03.276 there and like write some songs. My husband was living 0:06:03.276 --> 0:06:04.996 with us and he played bass on the album. And 0:06:05.036 --> 0:06:08.396 then my my first boyfriend and good friend, Nicolae Gamer, 0:06:08.396 --> 0:06:10.316 who I talked about in the book. He was living 0:06:10.356 --> 0:06:13.156 in Eugene and he came and played guitar and introduced 0:06:13.156 --> 0:06:15.476 me to this guy, Colin Redman, who played drums and 0:06:15.476 --> 0:06:18.236 had a little bedroom studio, and so that became a 0:06:18.276 --> 0:06:19.836 way for me to kind of just like let off 0:06:19.876 --> 0:06:22.996 some steam and you know, kind of like figure out 0:06:22.996 --> 0:06:25.396 the things that I was feeling after this whirlwind six 0:06:25.516 --> 0:06:27.996 months of living in Eugene taking care of my mom 0:06:28.436 --> 0:06:31.276 who had stage four cancer. And you know, so I 0:06:31.596 --> 0:06:35.356 wrote Psychopomp and those guys helped me arrange it and 0:06:35.356 --> 0:06:38.156 played the other instruments, and then my husband and I 0:06:38.236 --> 0:06:42.116 moved to New York, I think in May or June 0:06:42.156 --> 0:06:47.116 of twenty fifteen, and the album needed mixing, and I 0:06:47.156 --> 0:06:49.916 had this college friend, Dad Eisenberg, who I thought was 0:06:49.956 --> 0:06:53.516 a very talented mixing engineer, and we actually started opening 0:06:53.556 --> 0:06:55.916 up those songs while I was working that nine to 0:06:55.956 --> 0:06:58.476 five job in advertising. Yeah, what I thought was going 0:06:58.556 --> 0:07:00.636 to be mixing ended up being like adding a lot 0:07:00.636 --> 0:07:04.316 of SyncE and speeding up songs and adding samples, and 0:07:04.396 --> 0:07:06.956 Ned really kind of revitalized an album that was maybe 0:07:06.996 --> 0:07:09.716 a little bit more straightforward. Did you love it? Were 0:07:09.716 --> 0:07:11.916 you proud of it? Like? What was your thought about 0:07:11.916 --> 0:07:15.436 it as you were mixing it and adding more to it? Yeah? 0:07:15.516 --> 0:07:18.116 I mean I think that Ned is a brilliant producer, 0:07:18.196 --> 0:07:20.796 and the stuff that we were doing there and even 0:07:20.876 --> 0:07:22.476 you know, when I was recording in the gene. I 0:07:22.476 --> 0:07:24.316 thought it was great. But I thought everything that I 0:07:24.356 --> 0:07:26.036 did was great, you know what I mean, Like my 0:07:26.076 --> 0:07:28.076 old band, I thought all of our albums were great 0:07:28.076 --> 0:07:30.756 and no one else really cared about them. So yeah, 0:07:30.756 --> 0:07:32.436 I thought that we made a great thing. When we 0:07:32.436 --> 0:07:34.236 were done, I like sent it out to all these 0:07:34.396 --> 0:07:37.556 tiny labels and no one wanted it. Everyone you know, 0:07:37.636 --> 0:07:40.236 passed on it. And then eventually I found this small 0:07:40.276 --> 0:07:43.436 label called Yellow K Records, and you know, they were 0:07:43.476 --> 0:07:46.156 interested in putting it out, and in my mind, I 0:07:46.236 --> 0:07:48.396 was like, Okay, we'll press five hundred copies and over 0:07:48.436 --> 0:07:51.836 the next ten years will like slowly sell that. And 0:07:52.316 --> 0:07:54.236 I told him straight up, like I'm not going to tour. 0:07:54.316 --> 0:07:56.516 I have this job, i've health insurance. I like I've 0:07:56.556 --> 0:07:59.236 done that. It's not it doesn't work. Like I'm over 0:07:59.276 --> 0:08:00.996 that lifestyle. I have to like focus on this. And 0:08:01.036 --> 0:08:03.196 he's like, okay, that's fine, and he was still willing 0:08:03.236 --> 0:08:06.076 to put it out and they got a PR person, Aloy, 0:08:06.156 --> 0:08:08.756 who's still my PR person. And you know, when he 0:08:08.796 --> 0:08:11.156 told me he was hiring a publicist, I was like, why, 0:08:11.276 --> 0:08:12.836 you know what a waste of money, Like, it's not 0:08:12.876 --> 0:08:16.876 going to do anything, and the record got great press, 0:08:16.996 --> 0:08:19.876 and I got offered the Mitzky tour. I had labels 0:08:19.876 --> 0:08:23.676 that were interested, and around that time, I had like 0:08:23.756 --> 0:08:26.996 a year end assessment of my progress at my job 0:08:27.036 --> 0:08:28.876 and I thought I was getting a raise, and they 0:08:28.916 --> 0:08:32.676 actually told me. I was like not doing what And 0:08:32.836 --> 0:08:36.276 so like the owner, I think he's kind of like 0:08:36.276 --> 0:08:39.476 a punk guy actually, and like I think he thought 0:08:39.516 --> 0:08:42.396 I was like funny, and I think he felt bad 0:08:42.436 --> 0:08:45.516 for me that I was so blindsided by this, you know, 0:08:45.636 --> 0:08:48.476 this end of the year progress part that he misspoke, 0:08:48.556 --> 0:08:50.876 I think. And he offered me a two month severance, 0:08:51.476 --> 0:08:54.516 which was crazy because I'd only been there for nine months, 0:08:55.036 --> 0:08:56.916 and like he was letting you go. Yeah, he was 0:08:56.956 --> 0:08:59.436 like if you're not happy, like if you're so surprised 0:08:59.436 --> 0:09:01.756 by this, like maybe it's not you know, you shouldn't 0:09:01.796 --> 0:09:04.156 you should go do something else or whatever. And so 0:09:04.196 --> 0:09:07.916 I took my paid Christmas vacation and around that time 0:09:07.916 --> 0:09:10.236 I had been offered all these cells by showcases. I 0:09:10.276 --> 0:09:11.756 thought about it. I came back and I was like, 0:09:11.796 --> 0:09:13.756 I'll take that two months everance. And in my mind 0:09:13.796 --> 0:09:15.556 I was like, Okay, well you have two months of 0:09:15.596 --> 0:09:17.716 pay to like see if this is going to turn 0:09:17.756 --> 0:09:22.516 into something and reassess, and then it ended up doing 0:09:22.556 --> 0:09:25.316 really well. We went to south By, we got signed, 0:09:25.316 --> 0:09:27.196 I got a booking agent, I got this you know, 0:09:27.276 --> 0:09:31.516 North American tour, and I never worked another job since then. 0:09:31.836 --> 0:09:33.676 So what do you think it was about the album 0:09:33.716 --> 0:09:36.356 that stuck this time? I don't know, you know, I 0:09:36.356 --> 0:09:38.076 think it's a There was a number of things. I 0:09:38.116 --> 0:09:40.636 think when you know, maybe I had just finally paid 0:09:40.716 --> 0:09:43.436 enough of my dues, Like maybe my name had kind 0:09:43.476 --> 0:09:46.076 of been like bubbling up, and there was a kind 0:09:46.076 --> 0:09:50.636 of clarity and focus that my other band before it 0:09:50.676 --> 0:09:53.676 didn't have, because I could kind of like be this 0:09:53.756 --> 0:09:57.116 directorial force that I had kind of you know, the 0:09:57.116 --> 0:09:58.836 band before it was kind of more of a democracy. 0:09:58.876 --> 0:10:01.116 It was like four people like you know, and I 0:10:00.916 --> 0:10:04.076 was kind of like writing music. Then that was a 0:10:04.076 --> 0:10:08.036 little bit harder. It was a little harder than what 0:10:08.156 --> 0:10:10.156 I wanted to make me or that what I or 0:10:10.316 --> 0:10:12.996 more naturally like comes out of me. I guess like 0:10:13.036 --> 0:10:15.556 I was in a band with three kind of dudes 0:10:15.596 --> 0:10:18.716 that came up in punk and hardcore, and I think 0:10:18.756 --> 0:10:21.876 that Japanese Breakfast I was able to kind of lean 0:10:21.956 --> 0:10:24.396 into like more pop sensibility, more indies, So it was 0:10:24.436 --> 0:10:28.276 just more listenable, more palatable. And yeah, I think also 0:10:28.476 --> 0:10:30.796 a narrative like came out, like when when we wrote 0:10:30.836 --> 0:10:33.236 a press release, like I didn't say anything about my 0:10:33.276 --> 0:10:35.996 mom passing away, but you know, as you can probably tell, 0:10:36.036 --> 0:10:39.196 like I'm a pretty open book, easy person to interview, 0:10:39.316 --> 0:10:41.796 and like I think that, you know, when people ask 0:10:41.916 --> 0:10:44.756 like what is the song about, I told them, you know, honestly, 0:10:44.836 --> 0:10:47.436 And that narrative kind of came out on its own, 0:10:47.436 --> 0:10:49.916 and I think that it resonated with people and that 0:10:50.036 --> 0:10:52.436 was part of it. And I just got lucky the 0:10:52.516 --> 0:10:56.116 right place right. Who knows why, but that's my theory. 0:10:56.156 --> 0:10:58.916 It's also very good. Yeah, I wouldn't chuck it all 0:10:58.996 --> 0:11:03.076 up to luck. The cover image is so arresting. It's 0:11:03.076 --> 0:11:04.836 just it sort of stays with you. It's a little 0:11:04.836 --> 0:11:07.396 bit mysterious, like what's going on here? How did you 0:11:07.396 --> 0:11:09.436 pick that image? And where did you find? I know 0:11:09.476 --> 0:11:11.636 it's your mom's in the picture, but how did you 0:11:11.676 --> 0:11:14.156 come across the image? I mean, first of all, I 0:11:14.236 --> 0:11:16.476 you know, was packing up the house and threw so 0:11:16.556 --> 0:11:18.836 much stuff away except for all the family photos. So 0:11:18.876 --> 0:11:20.916 I was like going through all these family photos all 0:11:20.956 --> 0:11:24.556 the time, and so they were certainly like top of mind, 0:11:24.676 --> 0:11:29.516 and it was also free, so I didn't have to 0:11:29.596 --> 0:11:31.596 hire anyone. It was just like the image. I like 0:11:31.716 --> 0:11:33.476 this image, you know. I think my mom looks so 0:11:33.516 --> 0:11:35.996 beautiful there, and like she's with her friend and she's 0:11:36.036 --> 0:11:38.676 around my age, you know when I lost her, and 0:11:39.196 --> 0:11:42.356 it really just looks like she is like in the sky, 0:11:42.636 --> 0:11:44.636 Like it looks like they're on a cloud and she's 0:11:44.676 --> 0:11:47.076 reaching for me. Yeah. Well, I mean I've done so 0:11:47.076 --> 0:11:48.876 many interviews that I haven't really talked about this, but 0:11:48.956 --> 0:11:52.236 like when I think about that album cover, like it 0:11:52.276 --> 0:11:55.676 does look kind of like it's a woman reaching down 0:11:55.836 --> 0:11:59.116 below from like a cloud or something, but it also 0:11:59.236 --> 0:12:02.756 looks like it's a woman like letting go of someone beneath, 0:12:02.836 --> 0:12:05.876 you know, And that's like just so much what that 0:12:05.916 --> 0:12:07.796 album is about. You know. I was like having all 0:12:07.836 --> 0:12:10.716 these dreams about my mom and it felt like it 0:12:10.756 --> 0:12:13.116 was her way of like reaching towards me or something. 0:12:13.756 --> 0:12:16.556 But it was also like, you know, about becoming an 0:12:16.556 --> 0:12:19.356 adult after like you like lose your parents maybe a 0:12:19.356 --> 0:12:22.396 little bit sooner than you're ready to, and yeah, like 0:12:22.476 --> 0:12:25.676 having to to Forgohn after that and being let go 0:12:25.716 --> 0:12:28.836 of So yeah, it felt like so fitting for that 0:12:28.876 --> 0:13:00.316 time and the themes on that record. She just paces 0:13:01.596 --> 0:13:54.556 Dais sniffs That's in Heaven from Japanese Breakfast debut album, 0:13:54.716 --> 0:13:57.436 Psycho Pomp. We'll be right back with more from Michelle's 0:13:57.436 --> 0:14:04.276 Honor after the break We're back with Lea Rose and 0:14:04.356 --> 0:14:08.476 Michelle's Honor of Japanese Breakfast for the second album, did 0:14:08.516 --> 0:14:11.836 you have kind of a creative frame for it? Did 0:14:11.836 --> 0:14:13.596 you have an idea of where you wanted to go? 0:14:14.196 --> 0:14:19.676 So we played south By must have been twenty sixteen, 0:14:20.036 --> 0:14:24.116 and everything exploded for me as an artist there. And 0:14:24.836 --> 0:14:28.836 I had this song Machinist. That was that song about 0:14:28.836 --> 0:14:31.076 it falling in love with the robot and in my mind, 0:14:31.156 --> 0:14:34.036 you know, after like doing all this press around Psychopomp, 0:14:34.116 --> 0:14:35.556 I was like, I don't want to talk about this 0:14:35.556 --> 0:14:37.036 ever again. I want to I don't want to write 0:14:37.036 --> 0:14:38.636 an album about grief. I need to like write an 0:14:38.676 --> 0:14:41.876 album about like a sci fi concept album that has 0:14:41.956 --> 0:14:43.956 nothing to do with my personal life and everything to 0:14:43.956 --> 0:14:47.596 do with like fiction. And I had kind of promised 0:14:47.716 --> 0:14:49.676 Dead Oceans, like I told them, you know, They're like, oh, 0:14:49.716 --> 0:14:51.756 you must have another album ready to go or something, 0:14:51.796 --> 0:14:54.196 and I had kind of lied and been like, oh yeah, 0:14:54.196 --> 0:14:56.396 like it's ready to go, sign me, you know. But 0:14:56.436 --> 0:14:58.436 it was kind of a good way to go about 0:14:58.476 --> 0:14:59.836 it because I, you know, I had all of the 0:14:59.876 --> 0:15:02.996 pressure of like a successful kind of debut that I 0:15:03.036 --> 0:15:06.196 was like, okay, like I need to avoid the sophomore slump. 0:15:06.276 --> 0:15:07.756 Maybe the best way to do that is just do 0:15:07.836 --> 0:15:10.836 it fast, like just right, you know what feels good 0:15:10.836 --> 0:15:13.876 to you immediately. But then when I started trying to 0:15:13.916 --> 0:15:16.636 go in on this like very heavy handed sci fi 0:15:16.716 --> 0:15:19.276 concept record, I was like, you know, your mom still 0:15:19.316 --> 0:15:21.596 just died, like that was like two years ago, and 0:15:21.636 --> 0:15:23.676 you're still going through a lot of these feelings. And 0:15:24.556 --> 0:15:26.916 I think I ended up being an album much more 0:15:26.996 --> 0:15:29.756 about this different type of grief. I was like kind 0:15:29.756 --> 0:15:32.396 of dissociating a lot. I felt very out of touch 0:15:32.436 --> 0:15:35.116 from reality and you know, kind of spacey. I guess. 0:15:35.116 --> 0:15:37.036 So I think that it's kind of like a very 0:15:37.076 --> 0:15:40.596 loose concept record about grief and mourning and kind of 0:15:40.636 --> 0:15:45.556 like removing yourself from feeling in this way. And I 0:15:45.596 --> 0:15:48.316 had kind of like a bad falling out with Ned Eisenberg, 0:15:48.356 --> 0:15:52.396 the producer who worked on Psychopomp, and I reached out 0:15:52.396 --> 0:15:54.756 to my friend Craig Hendricks, who ended up joining the 0:15:54.836 --> 0:15:59.476 live band, and he recorded my old band, Little Big 0:15:59.556 --> 0:16:02.316 League's first album, and the two of us like forged 0:16:02.356 --> 0:16:06.796 a really wonderful collaborative relationship from starting with that record. 0:16:06.876 --> 0:16:10.156 It was really a very insular process. It was very 0:16:10.196 --> 0:16:14.636 concentrated one month of like largely just writing, arranging recording 0:16:15.036 --> 0:16:19.156 in his little warehouse studio, like just me and him 0:16:19.156 --> 0:16:21.596 playing all the instruments and putting it together. And I 0:16:21.676 --> 0:16:24.836 felt like that's what I needed to kind of avoid 0:16:25.356 --> 0:16:28.476 the kind of pressures of the sophomore slump taking its 0:16:28.596 --> 0:16:32.356 toll on me. Yeah, I feel like your fashion really 0:16:32.396 --> 0:16:37.156 exploded between album two and three. And is that just 0:16:37.356 --> 0:16:40.116 because of like now you have access to more resources? 0:16:40.236 --> 0:16:43.516 Is it knowing more designers? How did that happen? And 0:16:43.556 --> 0:16:46.876 it's been so incredible to see, thank you? Yeah. I 0:16:46.876 --> 0:16:50.036 mean it started with just like needing something to wear. 0:16:51.356 --> 0:16:54.756 And a big change was I'm I started hanging out 0:16:54.756 --> 0:16:58.356 with cclu was my stylist, and she's you know, become 0:16:58.396 --> 0:17:00.276 a really good friend of mine, and the two of 0:17:00.356 --> 0:17:04.036 us like went from you know, begging small designers to 0:17:04.116 --> 0:17:06.916 loan to us, buying and returning a lot of stuff 0:17:06.996 --> 0:17:09.516 like and she just you know, I think she really 0:17:09.516 --> 0:17:12.076 introduced me to fashion in general as an art form. 0:17:12.076 --> 0:17:14.516 And I started actually really enjoying it and feeling really 0:17:14.516 --> 0:17:17.076 good wearing different things and it becoming a part of 0:17:17.076 --> 0:17:19.876 the show and having different themes for different eras. And 0:17:20.356 --> 0:17:23.476 you know, when I think about musicians like be York 0:17:23.716 --> 0:17:27.836 or David Bowie or you know, John or whatever, like 0:17:27.956 --> 0:17:29.836 it's nice for me that you can think of their 0:17:29.876 --> 0:17:33.116 album cycles, like what sort of era they're in, you know, 0:17:33.196 --> 0:17:37.476 getting to be a bigger artist, you just start to 0:17:37.516 --> 0:17:39.916 tear apart all of the details of like what can 0:17:39.996 --> 0:17:42.756 you add to make it better? You know, all these 0:17:42.836 --> 0:17:46.636 little things. It's not just like adding more musicians. It's 0:17:46.676 --> 0:17:49.476 not just like adding more instruments and like more like 0:17:49.756 --> 0:17:53.556 detailed analogue sound. It's also like what does the backdrop 0:17:53.636 --> 0:17:55.596 look like, what does the production look like, what does 0:17:55.636 --> 0:17:57.876 the lighting look like? What well people are looking at 0:17:57.916 --> 0:18:00.396 what we're wearing, what does that look like? Or like 0:18:00.436 --> 0:18:03.996 the drumhead or you know, the microphone decoration, whatever, like 0:18:04.316 --> 0:18:06.996 any detail like it just as this level of this 0:18:07.196 --> 0:18:10.356 heightened level of thoughtfulness, I like the idea of like 0:18:10.596 --> 0:18:12.916 integrating that and every single thing that we do, and 0:18:12.996 --> 0:18:15.836 so the wardrobe started to kind of take on that 0:18:15.956 --> 0:18:18.436 sort of meaning for me too. And the more that 0:18:18.476 --> 0:18:21.276 I learned about different designers and the more that Ceci 0:18:21.396 --> 0:18:23.796 kind of integrated me into that world, the more exciting 0:18:23.876 --> 0:18:25.636 and fun it was to kind of come up with 0:18:25.636 --> 0:18:28.916 more ideas and make that a part of the show. Yeah, 0:18:28.916 --> 0:18:31.036 it's so cool. Oh, thank you. So I just wanted 0:18:31.036 --> 0:18:33.276 to ask you specifically about a couple of the songs 0:18:33.396 --> 0:18:36.876 on Jubilee. Oh great, okay, So Tactics. Yeah, yeah, this 0:18:36.956 --> 0:18:39.556 seems to be new on Jubilee. There's string sections, and 0:18:39.636 --> 0:18:42.996 you talked about, you know, as your evolution as an 0:18:43.076 --> 0:18:47.396 artist went on, you started adding different elements into the scores, 0:18:47.436 --> 0:18:50.516 and this is just seems like a huge jump from psychopump. 0:18:50.596 --> 0:18:53.596 So where did the idea come from. Yeah? I started 0:18:53.596 --> 0:18:56.436 writing a lot more songs on piano for this album, 0:18:56.516 --> 0:18:58.756 and so Tactics was a song that started on the 0:18:58.796 --> 0:19:01.396 piano and I really wanted it to be this kind 0:19:01.436 --> 0:19:08.276 of Randy Newman type ballad, and Craig transposed the introduction 0:19:08.316 --> 0:19:11.196 that was originally played the piano to a string quartet 0:19:11.516 --> 0:19:15.076 and then he kept saying like he had this like 0:19:15.236 --> 0:19:18.396 Bill Withers beat in mind, and I was like, I 0:19:18.436 --> 0:19:21.276 don't know what you're talking about. This is a ballot. 0:19:21.316 --> 0:19:23.876 This is a Randy Newman ballot. And once I heard it, 0:19:23.916 --> 0:19:27.476 I was like, oh, that Bill Wither's beachs Like yeah, okay, 0:19:27.516 --> 0:19:29.956 that that makes complete sense. And that was sort of 0:19:29.956 --> 0:19:32.636 how that song came together. Cool. I feel like that 0:19:32.716 --> 0:19:35.676 song hasn't gotten it's too. That's one of my favorite 0:19:35.676 --> 0:19:37.636 songs on the record, and I'm surprised that more people 0:19:37.676 --> 0:19:41.276 don't gravitate towards it. And then Savage, Oh, yeah, if 0:19:41.276 --> 0:19:43.396 you could talk a little bit about the video too 0:19:43.436 --> 0:19:46.596 for that as well. Yeah, so Savage, good boy, I 0:19:46.636 --> 0:19:51.236 wrote after reading a news headline about billionaire's buying bunkers, 0:19:51.236 --> 0:19:55.916 and I thought, you know, that's a horrifying reality in 0:19:55.956 --> 0:19:58.716 my mind, Like that song is about a billionaire kind 0:19:58.716 --> 0:20:01.716 of coaxing a young woman to live with him in 0:20:01.756 --> 0:20:03.996 his bunker as the kind of as the world burns 0:20:03.996 --> 0:20:07.356 around them and global warming ticks over, and I think 0:20:07.396 --> 0:20:10.596 over time, it's kind of like revealed that this guy 0:20:10.716 --> 0:20:13.436 who just thinks that I'm just playing this game, you know, 0:20:13.476 --> 0:20:15.156 I'm doing what it takes to win. I'm doing what 0:20:15.156 --> 0:20:18.116 it takes to survive and protect my family. Over time, 0:20:18.116 --> 0:20:21.316 it just like that reality of just that mentality of 0:20:21.396 --> 0:20:24.876 hoarding wealth on such a high level reveals itself as 0:20:24.876 --> 0:20:29.076 a more and more menacing perspective. And so I wanted 0:20:29.076 --> 0:20:32.996 a very literal translation of that video. And I thought, 0:20:33.036 --> 0:20:37.716 you know, my dream savage good boy was Michael Imperioli 0:20:38.316 --> 0:20:40.796 because and we thought that, you know, my cinematographer and 0:20:40.836 --> 0:20:44.076 I love the Sopranos, and we followed him on Instagram 0:20:44.116 --> 0:20:45.516 and just saw that, you know, he was kind of 0:20:45.556 --> 0:20:48.276 in the scene like he's a big shoegaze fan, and 0:20:48.596 --> 0:20:51.476 he's brillianto most of Sumny and My Bloody Valentine, and 0:20:51.756 --> 0:20:53.516 I just thought that he might be down for a 0:20:53.596 --> 0:20:56.716 kind of, you know for him, probably very low budget 0:20:56.836 --> 0:21:00.516 music video appearance. And you know, he looks so great 0:21:00.596 --> 0:21:02.836 now and it's kind of like a different role for him, Like, 0:21:02.916 --> 0:21:05.436 you know, he's always been this kind of like working class, 0:21:05.436 --> 0:21:08.996 sort of tough guy, but he looks so handsome and 0:21:09.236 --> 0:21:11.356 like I think that you know, dressed up in that way, 0:21:11.436 --> 0:21:14.276 like he looks like he could be this other type 0:21:14.316 --> 0:21:16.556 of guy. And so I thought it would be fun 0:21:16.596 --> 0:21:19.996 to cast him. Really really lucky that he was in 0:21:20.076 --> 0:21:22.076 it because he's so great in it. What was it 0:21:22.116 --> 0:21:23.756 like to work with him? I mean, being a big 0:21:23.796 --> 0:21:26.316 fan of the Sopranos and then you're just like so 0:21:26.356 --> 0:21:29.716 physically close with him in while filming that video and 0:21:29.716 --> 0:21:33.636 you're like biting his neck like was that? Oh God? Yeah, 0:21:33.676 --> 0:21:36.556 it was great. I Mean he's a very generous person 0:21:36.636 --> 0:21:40.316 and a fantastic actor, and I'm really grateful that he 0:21:40.436 --> 0:21:43.596 had no ego and he would just you know, he 0:21:43.676 --> 0:21:46.316 really let me direct, you know, and he really took 0:21:46.356 --> 0:21:49.556 me very seriously, and you know, reassured me and many 0:21:49.596 --> 0:21:51.836 times to give him feedback and that he was going 0:21:51.916 --> 0:21:54.396 to take it seriously. And and you know, watch I 0:21:54.436 --> 0:21:56.196 was the first time I worked with a real actor 0:21:56.236 --> 0:22:00.516 really and a professional actor. And yeah, just seeing like 0:22:00.556 --> 0:22:03.556 the small variations that he made from take to take 0:22:03.756 --> 0:22:07.116 like and what he could give like was so fun, 0:22:07.316 --> 0:22:10.636 you know, to like watch a true actor work in 0:22:10.676 --> 0:22:13.076 that way. Was it hard to give him feedback? I 0:22:13.076 --> 0:22:15.236