1 00:00:05,080 --> 00:00:07,720 Speaker 1: Hi, this is Annie and this is Bridget and you're 2 00:00:07,760 --> 00:00:19,919 Speaker 1: listening to stuff momb never told you. And you have 3 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:24,560 Speaker 1: a disclaimer right at the top. Bridget. Yes, that's right. Um, 4 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 1: you may be able to tell I sound a little 5 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 1: bit like Tom Waits. You know this is not Tom Waits. 6 00:00:30,360 --> 00:00:34,879 Speaker 1: This is Bridget, your your podcast co host. Unfortunately, I 7 00:00:34,880 --> 00:00:39,200 Speaker 1: have been under the weather and it has resulted in laryngitis. 8 00:00:39,280 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 1: So my voice sounds, I would say, dramatically different than 9 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: it usually does. I would agree, I would agree. So 10 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:52,559 Speaker 1: I'm fully aware. Uh, I'm sorry, and let's do this. 11 00:00:52,840 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: I'm working sick, just like Hillary Clinton does, just like 12 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: the you know, Prime Minister of New Zealand did when 13 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: she was I guess being sick and having a baby. 14 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: That's the same thing. But you know, morning morning sickness. 15 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 1: There we go. You get it. Yeah, you're pro and 16 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: we appreciate, we appreciate your efforts. Rigid. The show must 17 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 1: go on, It must go on. So today we're talking 18 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:18,040 Speaker 1: about what I would say is one of our most 19 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:22,720 Speaker 1: requested topics, if not the most requested topic, and that 20 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:27,679 Speaker 1: is changing your name when it comes to getting married. 21 00:01:27,920 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: Should women change their names when they get married? And 22 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: this is a question that seems to be on a 23 00:01:32,959 --> 00:01:40,839 Speaker 1: lot of progressive feminist female women, female women's minds, people's minds. 24 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 1: It's it's something that we're discussing more and more whether 25 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: or not we should be doing this, and if not, 26 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: then what should we be doing. If you were to 27 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:52,600 Speaker 1: be married, would you change your name? If I were 28 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: to be married and said person had an awesome last name, 29 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: then yes, But I do like my name, so it 30 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,560 Speaker 1: would have to be pretty cool. What about you, Bridget, 31 00:02:04,560 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: would you change your name? Never? Never, honestly never, I 32 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: would never even consider it. Um. It has nothing to 33 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,240 Speaker 1: do with like my feminist morals or anything like that, 34 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: as we're going to discuss later in the episode. I 35 00:02:17,560 --> 00:02:20,880 Speaker 1: just really love my name. I identify with it. You know, 36 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: for a while, my family made Team Todd sweatshirts. Right, Like, 37 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,919 Speaker 1: my last name is A I really strongly identify with 38 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: being a Todd. And one of my nicknames growing up 39 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 1: was BT. So unless I was marrying somebody whose last 40 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 1: name started with a T, that would no longer be 41 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: my nickname. And I have a lot of personal identity 42 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,239 Speaker 1: wrapped up and being a Todd. Yeah. Yeah, Several women 43 00:02:43,960 --> 00:02:47,520 Speaker 1: have expressed similar feelings. And I also went by my 44 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:49,360 Speaker 1: last name for a while because I really hated my 45 00:02:49,400 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 1: first name. And then I tried to go by my 46 00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 1: middle name and that didn't work. So then I, what's 47 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 1: your middle name, Hollis. That's good, that's my mom's maiden name. 48 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:02,639 Speaker 1: That sounds like a character in a comic book, like 49 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:05,720 Speaker 1: a like a like a streetwise female character. Oh, Bridget, 50 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,320 Speaker 1: it is a character in a comic book. Unfortunately, it 51 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:11,920 Speaker 1: is not a woman. It is a man. Um, I 52 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:15,200 Speaker 1: believe it's a watchman. He is a character in there. Anyway, 53 00:03:15,240 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: I digress. I used that in um like seventh grade 54 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: is my nickname. But of course seventh grade boys started 55 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: to call me ho s so I had to go. 56 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:27,640 Speaker 1: I had to go with the last name for a while. 57 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: Oh my god, I have a very un PC story 58 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: about because I feel like a lot of people go 59 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 1: through a middle school phase where they want to change 60 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 1: their name, like start calling It's like, stop calling me Sarah, 61 00:03:37,840 --> 00:03:40,640 Speaker 1: start calling me Starla. So right off the bat, this 62 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: story is not one that is PC at all. When 63 00:03:43,680 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: I was in seventh grade, I went to a different 64 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: seventh grades and I did for you know, sixth grade. 65 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:49,800 Speaker 1: I moved and I was like, I want to have 66 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: a new name, fresh start. So I wanted people to 67 00:03:52,400 --> 00:03:54,920 Speaker 1: call me breathe. And it wasn't until I thought, like 68 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: I would be a cute like b r I like 69 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:01,080 Speaker 1: a hute shortening of bridget. And here's why you really 70 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,560 Speaker 1: shouldn't give yourself a nickname. The very first day of school, 71 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: the teacher is doing role and I have written on 72 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: my card my preferred name is Bree, and she says 73 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: out loud, Bree Todd. And I don't think I need 74 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,040 Speaker 1: to know tell you like what that doubted like she 75 00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: was saying, like, I did not occur to me that 76 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: set out loud. The name Bree Todd would translate very 77 00:04:23,480 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: well to like a really popular but like problematic flur 78 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:32,000 Speaker 1: that teenagers like to call each other. H. So that 79 00:04:32,120 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 1: was a pretty way to start seventh grade day. One 80 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:41,559 Speaker 1: day one, I gave myself an off color, rude slur 81 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: nickname for everyone. I was basically just being like, call 82 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 1: me this all year, guys. Well, okay, so don't give 83 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: yourself nicknames. That's lesson. Right at the top, I wanted 84 00:04:57,400 --> 00:05:00,279 Speaker 1: to say recently, I had a friend get ma Arad 85 00:05:00,400 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: and she's kind of a really practical person and I 86 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: had never considered before until I heard her talking about it, 87 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: just how much you have to change when you do 88 00:05:10,000 --> 00:05:13,159 Speaker 1: change your last name. So she was talking about all 89 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 1: of these different forms, and apparently there's an app that 90 00:05:16,360 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: you can get and it'll go out and fill out 91 00:05:19,400 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: forms that you have to fill out when you're changing 92 00:05:22,400 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: your last name, and just things like if you're going 93 00:05:25,520 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 1: on a honeymoon right after your marriage, you're going to 94 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:31,279 Speaker 1: need a new passport or license if you're traveling to 95 00:05:31,440 --> 00:05:34,600 Speaker 1: somewhere not in the US. So it seems kind of 96 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:39,320 Speaker 1: like a stressful and expensive thing to do. Yeah, and 97 00:05:39,360 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 1: not to mention if you are someone who has a 98 00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:44,080 Speaker 1: ton of monogram stuff you would have to change at all. 99 00:05:44,120 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 1: I mean, you don't kind of think about how many 100 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 1: things are tied to your last name, from practical things 101 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:53,360 Speaker 1: to other concerns. Yeah, and there are a few workarounds 102 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:57,280 Speaker 1: hyphening the two last names. Some couples combine their last 103 00:05:57,360 --> 00:06:00,320 Speaker 1: names to make a new one, or some couples just 104 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 1: make up a new name entirely. Sometimes one person is 105 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,320 Speaker 1: happy to change their last name because they don't like 106 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:10,800 Speaker 1: their last name. Some women make their surname, their middle name. 107 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:14,520 Speaker 1: That's what my mom did, But it's complicated, perhaps because 108 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: you don't want to change your name. If you build 109 00:06:17,520 --> 00:06:20,440 Speaker 1: a career out of it, it's sort of your brand. 110 00:06:20,560 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: Your name is your brand. Perhaps you you want to 111 00:06:23,560 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 1: keep your name, but it doesn't hyphen well with your partners. 112 00:06:27,240 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 1: The expectation of your in this case, husband's family is 113 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:33,159 Speaker 1: that you'll change your name, and you're gonna have to 114 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,400 Speaker 1: explain your decision over and over why you won't take 115 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: the last name, or why you won't change your name. 116 00:06:39,400 --> 00:06:41,719 Speaker 1: Not taking your husband's last name might essentially put a 117 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:43,720 Speaker 1: target on your back. A lot of you wrote in 118 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:47,960 Speaker 1: about feeling that any choice outside of the norm you'll 119 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: stick out. Here's my question. If you change your last 120 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,400 Speaker 1: name when you're divorced, is the expectation that you will 121 00:06:54,440 --> 00:06:57,839 Speaker 1: go back? I think it is yeah. And some people 122 00:06:58,040 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 1: that we'll talk about later eventually realized that their last 123 00:07:01,640 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 1: name was a part of their identity and that they 124 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 1: regretted changing it. And you can change it back while 125 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: still being married. So I think yes, when you get divorced. 126 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 1: All of the examples I'm thinking of in my personal life. 127 00:07:15,280 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 1: The woman reverted back to her maiden name, and we'll 128 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: talk about this later too, but just think about the 129 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: fact that it's called maiden name and how kind of 130 00:07:25,280 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: indicative that is. Also in same sex marriages, there isn't 131 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: really a default option, but the same conversations are had, 132 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 1: just from a different starting point and with different expectations. 133 00:07:40,040 --> 00:07:43,320 Speaker 1: And as always, we would love to hear from any 134 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:47,640 Speaker 1: queer couples out there to give more of a context 135 00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: to this, to give a fuller picture, because most of 136 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: the stuff is about heterosexual relationships, and speaking of the 137 00:07:55,120 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 1: expectation is still that in a heterosexual marriage, the woman 138 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: will take on the man's last name. In the United 139 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:08,240 Speaker 1: States of women still do on average, and countries where 140 00:08:08,240 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 1: you're changing the last name is the custom. It's around 141 00:08:13,200 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: two thousand and eleven poll found that seventy adult Americans 142 00:08:16,800 --> 00:08:20,200 Speaker 1: agreed that women should change their last name. Seventy two 143 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 1: fifty percent said it shouldn't even be an option not to, 144 00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: it should be a legal requirement. Of people think it 145 00:08:28,560 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 1: should be against the law not to change your name 146 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:37,120 Speaker 1: at marriage. Fifty percent of people are real noisy, busybodies 147 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:42,960 Speaker 1: about other people's relationships. Agreed, agreed, and as recently as 148 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:47,800 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies, married women couldn't vote with their names 149 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:50,120 Speaker 1: in some states that they hadn't changed it to their 150 00:08:50,160 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: married last name, like on their registration weren't allowed to vote. Well, 151 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:55,840 Speaker 1: that kind of goes back to something I know we'll 152 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 1: talk about more in full detail, but this idea that 153 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,679 Speaker 1: made a name. You're not in a full citizen if 154 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:03,640 Speaker 1: you don't if you have not changed your name, I like, 155 00:09:03,800 --> 00:09:06,360 Speaker 1: you don't even get full access to your rights in 156 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:10,559 Speaker 1: some ways. Yeah. Another study found that in only three 157 00:09:10,559 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: percent of couples, men took their wives names, which is 158 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:17,400 Speaker 1: great for going in the face of gender conventions. Or 159 00:09:17,440 --> 00:09:20,840 Speaker 1: perhaps you prefer that last name, but it's still one 160 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,000 Speaker 1: person giving up a piece of their identities. So if 161 00:09:24,040 --> 00:09:26,760 Speaker 1: that's what works in your relationship, as in all cases, 162 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:30,559 Speaker 1: go for it. There is no one size fits all solution. 163 00:09:31,280 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: When one couple was interviewed about this for that study, 164 00:09:34,360 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 1: that survey I just mentioned, one woman in the study 165 00:09:37,360 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: said she didn't want her marriage to become a political 166 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,560 Speaker 1: statement by her husband taking her last name, but it 167 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:45,160 Speaker 1: was important to both of them to provide an example 168 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 1: that men could do that. Several of their friends didn't 169 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 1: even know that was that thing. Yeah, I could see, 170 00:09:53,360 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: especially if you were a public figure. I'm struggling to 171 00:09:56,520 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: think of a public figure who has been in a 172 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: heterosexual maurage where the man has taken a woman's last name. 173 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: I remember reading somewhere that when John Lennon and Yoko 174 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: oh No we're married, he changed his middle name to 175 00:10:09,480 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: oh No, so they would legally both be the on 176 00:10:12,080 --> 00:10:14,440 Speaker 1: No Lennon's and not have it be you know, she 177 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 1: changed her name and it's this and his is still 178 00:10:16,840 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 1: this Lennon. But I can't really think of many modern 179 00:10:19,920 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 1: day couples with a man changes his last name to 180 00:10:22,960 --> 00:10:25,760 Speaker 1: be the woman's. Yeah. I think in the article I 181 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: was reading, they gave you an example of three famous couples, 182 00:10:30,200 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: and the only one I recognized, and I didn't know 183 00:10:32,920 --> 00:10:36,160 Speaker 1: her husband, but Zoe's al Donna's husband, who is an artist, 184 00:10:36,559 --> 00:10:39,600 Speaker 1: took her last name. I think, oh, yeah, that's I 185 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 1: follow them on on Instagram. I can't confirm, okay, awesome. 186 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 1: A poll conducted in Men's Health found that men wanted 187 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,640 Speaker 1: their spouse to be proud to take on his family's 188 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: name and be part of his family. They said their 189 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:56,079 Speaker 1: name was a part of who they were, And I 190 00:10:56,160 --> 00:10:58,880 Speaker 1: kept thinking while I was reading that, Yeah, but don't 191 00:10:58,920 --> 00:11:01,440 Speaker 1: you think that that is so true for the woman. 192 00:11:01,720 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 1: Don't you think it's also true for your partner in 193 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:07,560 Speaker 1: this relationship. Everybody has the right to feel an identity 194 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:12,319 Speaker 1: towards their name. Yeah, and I can absolutely see in 195 00:11:12,360 --> 00:11:16,679 Speaker 1: some cases that you getting rid of that identity is 196 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,080 Speaker 1: something that you'd like to do. But I think most 197 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: times you want to hold onto that. Another study found that, 198 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,520 Speaker 1: depending on what area of the state you're in, not 199 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:30,880 Speaker 1: taking your husband's name means people might perceive you as 200 00:11:31,320 --> 00:11:36,080 Speaker 1: quote less committed to your husband and your marriage. In general, 201 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: this belief was held the most strongly by men with 202 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:43,600 Speaker 1: low education levels, who believed it was grounds for divorce. 203 00:11:44,520 --> 00:11:47,240 Speaker 1: Midwestern women were more likely to hold the same opinion 204 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,480 Speaker 1: than women on the East Coast, wow or else for divorce. 205 00:11:51,920 --> 00:11:55,200 Speaker 1: I know, won't take my last name. I feel like 206 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:58,520 Speaker 1: that would come up earlier in the relationships, some kind 207 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 1: of seeing and seed that shows perhaps this isn't gonna 208 00:12:03,760 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 1: work out. I would think, unless this is like that 209 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:12,560 Speaker 1: show Green Acres where your wife is completely just like 210 00:12:12,559 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: like a one eight difference from yourself, and you know 211 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,319 Speaker 1: she likes the city I like the country. Like you 212 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 1: would know if unless you were marrying someone that you've 213 00:12:20,920 --> 00:12:23,560 Speaker 1: never met, you would know my wife probably isn't gonna 214 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: be done with changing her last name. I would hope 215 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: so once she reached that point. Religion also in Pacas, 216 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: Catholic women are the least likely to keep their surname, 217 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: and women having a non denominational wedding were the most 218 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: likely to keep theirs. Oh, surprise, surprise, Like I'm having 219 00:12:42,880 --> 00:12:44,840 Speaker 1: a wedding in the in the forest, and I'm gonna 220 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:50,679 Speaker 1: keep my last name. Of course, other factors include age 221 00:12:51,120 --> 00:12:54,960 Speaker 1: and level of success. Since women are waiting longer to 222 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:57,920 Speaker 1: get married and more women are in the workplace now, 223 00:12:58,440 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: and couples are more likely to live together before a marriage, 224 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,600 Speaker 1: under a household with two separate names, maybe having children 225 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: from a previous marriage, the trend is moving towards more 226 00:13:07,800 --> 00:13:11,960 Speaker 1: women keeping their surname. And there's a whole two thousand 227 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: four paper that argued that the pill birth control was 228 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 1: a big reason for women keeping their surname. It was 229 00:13:18,840 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: really interesting. I believe that I think the pill could 230 00:13:21,920 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: be part of it, but I also think it's sort 231 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:26,200 Speaker 1: of what you were saying before. This sort of multi 232 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: pronged societal shift around what families look like. We used 233 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,080 Speaker 1: to have this understanding that a family was two point 234 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:35,720 Speaker 1: five kids in a house where mom and dad were married, 235 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 1: with a dog, in a white picket sense. We're sort 236 00:13:38,000 --> 00:13:40,959 Speaker 1: of acknowledged slowly but surely, that families come in all 237 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:44,320 Speaker 1: shapes and sizes, that it can be blended families. You know, 238 00:13:44,360 --> 00:13:48,199 Speaker 1: step brothers, stepsisters, you know LGBT hugh families. There are 239 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:50,959 Speaker 1: so many different kinds of families, and that this idea 240 00:13:51,080 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: that woman marries man and changed his last name and 241 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: mixed babies that have those last names. I think that 242 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: we're moving away from that being understood as the norm 243 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: because they're just so many models of that not being 244 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:04,360 Speaker 1: the norm. And I also think it's interesting that one 245 00:14:04,360 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: of the reasons why it's becoming more and more common 246 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: for women to keep their last names and they get 247 00:14:09,080 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: married celebrities are doing it. You know, if you're if 248 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 1: you're a famous celebrity and your name is your brand, 249 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: when you marry someone, you might not want to change that. 250 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: And so it's interesting to me that the data reflects 251 00:14:19,000 --> 00:14:22,160 Speaker 1: that that is another reason why less and less women 252 00:14:22,200 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: are changing their name at marriage. Yeah. I think we're 253 00:14:24,800 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: seeing these public examples and realizing that, yes, okay, this 254 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: is an option for me. I don't have to just 255 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 1: do this thing that has sort of been the tradition 256 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: and how it's the way things are for so long. 257 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 1: We're seeing all of these different options available to us 258 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,320 Speaker 1: and celebrities. It did come up in several papers that 259 00:14:46,360 --> 00:14:50,160 Speaker 1: we read that seeing celebrities do this is sort of 260 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 1: pushing things more that way. Sociologist, professor and marital name 261 00:14:56,320 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: researcher marital name researcher, there's a researcher for all kinds 262 00:14:59,280 --> 00:15:03,160 Speaker 1: of things. Laurie Shuvel calls this expectation that women will 263 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 1: change their name quote the strongest gendered social norm that 264 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: we enforce and expect. One of the main reasons men 265 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: gave for wanting to stick to this tradition is fear 266 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: that not doing so if their wife didn't take their 267 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,480 Speaker 1: last name, will make them appear less manly, and studies 268 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:24,440 Speaker 1: show they aren't wrong when it comes to society at large. 269 00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: For fearing that. One study found that women who keep 270 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:31,360 Speaker 1: their last names after marrying are hyphenated. We're seen by 271 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: participants to be married to a less dominant, weaker man. 272 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,240 Speaker 1: Although I don't see that it's necessarily a bad thing. 273 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:43,600 Speaker 1: If he took on the woman's last name, that perception 274 00:15:44,280 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: is deepened. Wow, masculinity is so fragile. It really is, 275 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: It really is. I could make a fragile marriage joke here, 276 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:56,840 Speaker 1: but I'm not. But we are going to talk about 277 00:15:56,880 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: some history of this whole thing. But first we're going 278 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:02,040 Speaker 1: to stop for a quick break for a word from 279 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:15,560 Speaker 1: our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor. Since historically 280 00:16:15,720 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 1: marriage has been an economic arrangement, it wasn't always so 281 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,640 Speaker 1: rare for a man to take a woman's last name. 282 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:26,080 Speaker 1: When marrying a woman who was wealthier, the man typically 283 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: took the lady's last name. If I had like Castle 284 00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: and it's something that sounded more grandiose than his last name, 285 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: he would take her last name. During the time of 286 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 1: the Norman Conquest, the English got the idea for coverture 287 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: from France. Quote. Her legal existence as an individual was 288 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: suspended under marital unity, a legal fiction in which the 289 00:16:48,960 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: husband and wife are considered a single entity. The husband. 290 00:16:53,360 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: A court document from read when a woman took a husband, 291 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:01,840 Speaker 1: she lost every surname except why of Wow, and I 292 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,679 Speaker 1: feel like we see that attitude reflected so often in history, 293 00:17:05,680 --> 00:17:08,159 Speaker 1: where you couldn't have your own bank account if you 294 00:17:07,960 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: if you don't have a husband, or your entire identity 295 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:13,919 Speaker 1: becomes affused with your husband's, you're not even really a 296 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,920 Speaker 1: real person on your own. Yeah. It made me think 297 00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 1: of Handmaid's Tale when all of their names are like 298 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 1: of fred Or, which I didn't get as a kid 299 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: if they read that book at perhaps too young an age, 300 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:32,520 Speaker 1: but now now I know. However, when marriage meant being 301 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,080 Speaker 1: seen as one person under the law, women were not 302 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:37,760 Speaker 1: allowed to keep their last name. The man's identity was 303 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,000 Speaker 1: viewed as more valuable than hers. He could vote, he 304 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:44,399 Speaker 1: could work, he could own stuff, all of those things 305 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:49,920 Speaker 1: that we would hopefully all have, but not in this case. Yeah, 306 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,359 Speaker 1: and the fact that it's called a maiden name. I 307 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: had never considered that before. I never put that together 308 00:17:55,960 --> 00:18:00,639 Speaker 1: until just now. I love that. In Equal Rites, activist 309 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:03,920 Speaker 1: Lucy Stone caused kind of a commotion by refusing to 310 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 1: change her last name when she got married. She did. 311 00:18:06,280 --> 00:18:11,879 Speaker 1: I can imagine the headlines. Now, local woman refuses to 312 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:18,359 Speaker 1: take man's last name, and I, okay, changing a last 313 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:24,240 Speaker 1: name isn't done everywhere. In fact, more places don't do 314 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 1: it than do. Since one, it's illegal for a woman 315 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: to take her husband's name post marriage in Canada. Greece 316 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:36,920 Speaker 1: put into place a similar law in nineteen three. In France, 317 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 1: since nine, no one can legally use a name different 318 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:43,159 Speaker 1: than the one on their birth certificate. It's acceptable in 319 00:18:43,200 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 1: social situations, but not legally. Since nineteen seventy five, Italy 320 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: is a similar law preventing women from taking on their 321 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: husband's name after marriage, but they can't hyphenate. In the Netherlands, 322 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: women can only change their surname after marriage in certain situations. 323 00:18:59,080 --> 00:19:03,119 Speaker 1: It's illegal in Belgium. It's not illegal in Korea or Malaysia, 324 00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 1: but most women don't do it. It's not the tradition there. 325 00:19:06,440 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: Women in Spanish speaking countries typically keep their last names 326 00:19:09,200 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 1: as well. Some women in countries where laws in place 327 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,399 Speaker 1: preventing them from taking their husband's name have expressed anger 328 00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: that the choices and theirs. But this was sort of 329 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:22,239 Speaker 1: I knew, I knew that not everywhere did it. I 330 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: was surprised at, uh kind of how rare it is. Actually, Yeah, 331 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,520 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that some of these countries just 332 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: sort of sides up the conversation altogether. Just say you can't. 333 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:36,320 Speaker 1: You can call yourself whatever you want in social situations, 334 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:40,000 Speaker 1: but you you don't even have the option. Yeah, just 335 00:19:40,000 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: just slight for for documentation purposes, keep in the same name. Yeah, 336 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,880 Speaker 1: I mean, but again, I think at first blush, I thought, well, good, 337 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 1: it's not even a conversation. But I do think that 338 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:53,679 Speaker 1: ultimately it should be up to the person getting married, 339 00:19:53,800 --> 00:19:55,760 Speaker 1: even if I'm not personally down with it, I think 340 00:19:55,760 --> 00:19:57,320 Speaker 1: that people should be able to do what if they want. 341 00:19:57,359 --> 00:19:59,119 Speaker 1: Like I wouldn't be down with the government saying I 342 00:19:59,200 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 1: can't do it if I wanted to legally change my 343 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:05,160 Speaker 1: name to reflect my marriage. Yeah, yeah, I think that's 344 00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 1: the thing. And countries that do commonly have the changing 345 00:20:10,880 --> 00:20:13,280 Speaker 1: of the last name after marriage besides the US, are 346 00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: the UK, Japan, where the law requires one spouse adopts 347 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,720 Speaker 1: the other's family name and nine percent of the time 348 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:24,159 Speaker 1: is the women in this case. So that's pretty small, 349 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,400 Speaker 1: small sample size. An article at the Huffington's Post looked 350 00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,639 Speaker 1: into reasons that women reported not changing their name or 351 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: regretting that they did. One woman reported feeling she lost 352 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,880 Speaker 1: a part of herself, kind of what you were talking about, 353 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:42,280 Speaker 1: Bridget that that family connection. No one knew she was 354 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: related to her family until she told them. She didn't 355 00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:48,320 Speaker 1: share the name of her parents and her brother's Her 356 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: name went from being German to being Irish. Quote. I 357 00:20:51,840 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: felt lost walking around with the name that didn't represent 358 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: me in any way other than my affiliation with a man. 359 00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 1: I felt as though I had vanished behind my husband 360 00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:03,359 Speaker 1: and his endeavors, which was the reason this practice was 361 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:06,960 Speaker 1: created in the first place. Yeah, I identify with that 362 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: so much. Also, I think I've mentioned this on the 363 00:21:09,600 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 1: show before. Someone once asked me on some like Instagram, 364 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,679 Speaker 1: Q and a thing when was an early time I 365 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 1: thought I knew that I was a feminist or I 366 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 1: was starting to sort of get feminist inklings in my body. 367 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 1: And I was a real, real little kid. And my 368 00:21:24,119 --> 00:21:27,399 Speaker 1: mom is a doctor and she's kept her her maiden 369 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:32,000 Speaker 1: name professionally. Um. She refers to herself as Todd in 370 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: social situations, but whenever she's practicing, whenever it's anything to 371 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:38,199 Speaker 1: do with her medicine or work, as you know, a 372 00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: doctor or she also teaches medicine, she refers to herself 373 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:45,600 Speaker 1: as as her maiden name, and people would always ask 374 00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: about this, like strangers at dinner when she gave her 375 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:51,200 Speaker 1: credit card or something, people like. People would really feel 376 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,400 Speaker 1: compelled to ask her about it, and she would always say, 377 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:57,600 Speaker 1: I worked my way through medicinal school me as Carolyne Boone, 378 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,720 Speaker 1: like I did it myself. My husband had nothing to 379 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:02,800 Speaker 1: do with it. We met. By the time we met, 380 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: I was already on my way, and so she was like, 381 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,560 Speaker 1: I'll be damned if even in name or ceremony or whatever, 382 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: I'll be damned if that accomplishment that took me so long, 383 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: that I poured so much of myself into it's going 384 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,040 Speaker 1: to get erased by his name. Now, I'm not saying 385 00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:20,800 Speaker 1: that that's how it is for everybody. Again, if you 386 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: don't feel that way, that is completely fine. But having 387 00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 1: my mom have to reaffirm that time and time and 388 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:29,959 Speaker 1: time and time again, like she has a little spield 389 00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: that she does with it really kind of drilled in 390 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: my head that it was unusual for this woman, my mom, 391 00:22:37,520 --> 00:22:41,160 Speaker 1: to be claiming her accomplishment in such an overt way 392 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: that that was unusual, And it really sort of just 393 00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:46,160 Speaker 1: stuck in my mind that, like, your name is who 394 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:47,960 Speaker 1: you are, Your name is who you are, Like your 395 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: last name says something. And when I think about my accomplishments, 396 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,959 Speaker 1: I want them to be Todd family accomplishments, right, Like 397 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,680 Speaker 1: I kind of accomplished family. My brother is a really 398 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:01,639 Speaker 1: accomplished lawyer. I think of that as Team Todd is 399 00:23:01,680 --> 00:23:03,680 Speaker 1: out here crushing it. Like when my when my brother 400 00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: does well, I think if it as a win for 401 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:07,840 Speaker 1: the Todds. It's just my personal kind of weird vibe 402 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 1: about it. I want to be able to bring my 403 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:13,840 Speaker 1: own accomplishments to Team Todd, even if it doesn't make 404 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,520 Speaker 1: sense to others, Like it's important to me to to 405 00:23:16,640 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: have who I am be attached to my my name, 406 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:22,600 Speaker 1: and my my name is Todd, I am a Todd. Yeah, 407 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,439 Speaker 1: so we have a little bit more for you. But 408 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 1: first we're gonna take one more quick break for a 409 00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, m and we're back. Thank you 410 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: sponsor doing the research for this. I hadn't appreciated before 411 00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 1: how much, because, like I've said on the show before, 412 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,720 Speaker 1: I don't really have any intention of getting married, and 413 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: if I do, I probably in the back of my head, 414 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,239 Speaker 1: I've always thought I'll keep my last name. So I 415 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 1: hadn't appreciated. Like in the example I just read and 416 00:23:57,920 --> 00:24:00,640 Speaker 1: the quote as she went from being where she say 417 00:24:00,720 --> 00:24:03,199 Speaker 1: German to Irish and she said, people started asking her 418 00:24:03,240 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: about like St. Patrick's day in Ireland, Like I never 419 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: thought about how much identity is imparted in your name, 420 00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: and how much it is sort of a part of 421 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,199 Speaker 1: who you are, and all of these memories, all of 422 00:24:15,240 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 1: these building blocks of your life based around this thing. 423 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: One of the first things you probably learned to write, 424 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:24,679 Speaker 1: one of the first things you probably learned to understand. Yeah, 425 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,879 Speaker 1: that's actually really funny. My first name is Irish. Bridge 426 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: is a very common Irish last name. If I was 427 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,400 Speaker 1: to marry somebody who had a very Irish sounding last name, 428 00:24:33,720 --> 00:24:35,879 Speaker 1: I think people would be like, this is an Irish 429 00:24:35,960 --> 00:24:39,959 Speaker 1: person and I'm not Irish. They would be very surprised 430 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: to find out I'm not actually an Irish person. Yeah, 431 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,560 Speaker 1: that's the Yeah. There are so many examples of women 432 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:52,160 Speaker 1: who just last name alone drastically shifted what people assumed 433 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: was their nationality based on your last name. And I 434 00:24:56,200 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: generally I feel like I don't ever make those assumptions 435 00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: about people. But I said, like, I would never ask 436 00:25:02,840 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: somebody with an Irish last name like what St. Patrick's 437 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:10,199 Speaker 1: stay like, But I guess people do. I definitely have. 438 00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 1: One of my best friends is Nigerian and married a 439 00:25:13,119 --> 00:25:16,480 Speaker 1: white person who took his last name, and I remember thinking, 440 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,200 Speaker 1: I'm the pol who definitely would be expecting a Nigerian 441 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:20,919 Speaker 1: woman to show up and then be like, oh, this 442 00:25:20,960 --> 00:25:23,399 Speaker 1: is not a Nigerian woman, right, It's not going to 443 00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,320 Speaker 1: assume anything about anyone, if anything for based on their name. 444 00:25:26,640 --> 00:25:29,280 Speaker 1: But I definitely have done that and can see why 445 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:35,840 Speaker 1: people do it. Uh. There are some other interesting unintended 446 00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:41,280 Speaker 1: societal consequences of keeping your last name after marriage. People 447 00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 1: assume that you're married to your brother, for instance. I 448 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: had never thought about that, but yeah, I can see 449 00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:48,879 Speaker 1: that happening. And when and if you have a baby, 450 00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: the hospital will put the woman's name is the baby's first, 451 00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: which can complicate security, particularly in Niku if the if 452 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: the names don't match up, some people will still refer 453 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: to you by your husband's last name, and they're really 454 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: from what I read, there really isn't an easy solution 455 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,159 Speaker 1: once kids come along. If they do, I feel like 456 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,439 Speaker 1: no one's really figured that one out yet. Yeah, I 457 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,359 Speaker 1: do love the idea of a mash up. I have 458 00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:18,879 Speaker 1: two close friends. One's last name is Hodapp, the other's 459 00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: last name is low And when they had a kid, 460 00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:25,080 Speaker 1: I thought low tap it works perfectly. Did they go 461 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: for a fridge? No, But I still think they should. 462 00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:31,400 Speaker 1: Still I think they should in the back of your mind, 463 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:36,080 Speaker 1: like come on, come on, they'll come around. So Yeah, 464 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 1: to kind of wrap this up, names are important and 465 00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: they are a part of you, of who you are. 466 00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: That your past, your family, your failures, successes. You probably 467 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 1: signed for your first car with it, if you have that, 468 00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: your least with it, your first job with it. There's 469 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 1: so many things attached to it. I feel like if 470 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,680 Speaker 1: you don't want to change your last name, I guess 471 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,199 Speaker 1: my problem with it is the expectation, the obligation, Like 472 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 1: the numbers we're saying at the beginning, We're think it's like, 473 00:27:05,080 --> 00:27:11,080 Speaker 1: should be the law. Yeah, you can get basically mind 474 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:16,119 Speaker 1: your business. Yeah yeah, really whatever works for a particular couple, 475 00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:21,359 Speaker 1: that should be enough. Yeah. So I'm really interested to 476 00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:26,040 Speaker 1: hear from listeners if you've come up with any interesting solutions. 477 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:30,159 Speaker 1: Are especially uh queer folks, because um, I feel like 478 00:27:30,160 --> 00:27:32,800 Speaker 1: the conversation is very different. Some of the things are 479 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: the same, but some of the things are very different. 480 00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: We'd love to hear from all of you. I know 481 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,000 Speaker 1: so many of you have written in just torn about 482 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:42,960 Speaker 1: what to do. Hopefully this was sort of enlightening, maybe 483 00:27:43,000 --> 00:27:46,240 Speaker 1: a little hopeful. So if you are getting married and 484 00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:50,119 Speaker 1: you're feeling torn or conflicted, just really reflect with yourself 485 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:53,119 Speaker 1: and no one can tell you what your name means 486 00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:55,280 Speaker 1: or doesn't mean to you. Right, it's important to me, 487 00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:57,720 Speaker 1: but maybe it's not important. Maybe you just change your 488 00:27:57,800 --> 00:27:59,560 Speaker 1: name without any thought because it's not important to you, 489 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: and that's ok too. But really, like, don't cave to 490 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 1: pressure from anybody. This is one of those things that 491 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: only you get to say how you feel about it, 492 00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:12,239 Speaker 1: and that's okay, that's good. Yeah, And this brings us 493 00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: to listener mail. And this first listener mail I chose 494 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 1: because I loved it and it had a kind of 495 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 1: an extra layer of complexity. Perhaps is the word surrounding 496 00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,080 Speaker 1: this changing your last name after marriage issue? So Hannah wrote, 497 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,159 Speaker 1: I've played games ever since I was a kid, fighting 498 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,359 Speaker 1: with my brother over his sega genesis his in quotes. 499 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 1: Over my years, I've struggled with then full accepted the 500 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,960 Speaker 1: game or title, eventually deciding that though the community has flawed, 501 00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:47,160 Speaker 1: I'm still a part of it and it only gets 502 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: better when good people stick around. I play a few 503 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: single player games, but my biggest passion is for Hears 504 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: of the Storm and online competitive m o b A 505 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:59,120 Speaker 1: featuring characters with all of Blizzards other games. Mobiles are 506 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,320 Speaker 1: known for having very toxic communities, and the learning curve 507 00:29:02,360 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: is very steep, so the genre is difficult for women 508 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: to be a part of. I've used many tactics other 509 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,160 Speaker 1: women used to avoid harassment. I don't use voice chat 510 00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:12,280 Speaker 1: with strangers. I play most of the friends I have 511 00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,400 Speaker 1: a gender neutral name, and this has been fairly effective. 512 00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: I'm very lucky to have an awesome group of online 513 00:29:18,040 --> 00:29:20,600 Speaker 1: friends to play with, and I rarely receive any kind 514 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 1: of gender based harassment. However, the topic of using a 515 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: gender neutral name has been on my mind a lot lately. 516 00:29:26,840 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: I've been considering changing my user name across all my 517 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,400 Speaker 1: online platforms, including games, for a while now, and I've 518 00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,960 Speaker 1: been struggling with whether my new name should hint it 519 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: my gender or not. There are many pros and cons 520 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,080 Speaker 1: to this, but I've found it strangely related to another 521 00:29:40,160 --> 00:29:43,160 Speaker 1: name change I'm considering. I'm getting married in four months, 522 00:29:43,360 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 1: and I have no idea if I'm going to change 523 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:47,760 Speaker 1: my last name or not. Both of these questions boiled 524 00:29:47,800 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: down to one issue. Do I want to put a 525 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: target on my back that cannot be removed in order 526 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 1: to make my stance on gender norms clear and paved 527 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: the way for others? With my own struggle, Both my 528 00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 1: and my fiance's families expect me to change my name. 529 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:05,360 Speaker 1: No one has even considered that I won't, so if 530 00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: I don't, I will constantly be reminding even my own 531 00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:11,880 Speaker 1: family what my name is. Additionally, I like the idea 532 00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 1: of sharing a name with him being Mr and Mrs something. 533 00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 1: And in the world of games, I want others used 534 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:19,880 Speaker 1: to seeing that women play this game too, But I 535 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: don't want to be driven away from playing because of 536 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: increased toxicity around me. To further complicate the issue, these 537 00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,280 Speaker 1: two things are related. My current gender neutral user name 538 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: is a play on my initials, which would change if 539 00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,680 Speaker 1: I change my last name. Do you have any insight 540 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 1: on these struggles of being a target but suffering because 541 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: of it? How do I come up with a user 542 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,360 Speaker 1: name that's easy for my friends to use in conversation, 543 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 1: but possibly displays my gender as well better yet, just 544 00:30:44,840 --> 00:30:48,440 Speaker 1: come up with a good name for me. Well, oh, 545 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: this could be a fun Like we should put this 546 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: to the listeners. I would love to do a contest 547 00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:56,440 Speaker 1: of picking the new your new user name. I love this. 548 00:30:57,800 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: I I do too, and I had never thought about included, um, 549 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: I use your name to the equation of whether of 550 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:10,040 Speaker 1: changing your last name and getting married as well. I 551 00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:13,480 Speaker 1: feel for you, but I love how these dovetailed. It 552 00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 1: kind of cracked me up, Like, wow, I've never thought 553 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 1: about that, but that just goes to show, like, just 554 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:22,240 Speaker 1: like we were talking about earlier, how names you don't 555 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: really think about it, but they do intersect with our 556 00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,760 Speaker 1: various aspects of our identity. So this name dilemma, it's 557 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: a gender identity aspect, it's a romantic identity aspect, it's 558 00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:36,400 Speaker 1: a social identity aspect. There are so many different intersecting facets. 559 00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:38,680 Speaker 1: You know, there's her identity as a gamer. There are 560 00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: so many facets of what this conflict and this anxiety 561 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 1: around something as simple as a name reflects. It just 562 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,360 Speaker 1: goes to show how ingrained and who we are our 563 00:31:47,480 --> 00:31:52,280 Speaker 1: names are, Whether there are given names are gamer tags? Yeah, yeah, 564 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: I hadn't appreciated it so fully until doing this this research. 565 00:31:57,120 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: I actually I love names. And there's another podcast I 566 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,360 Speaker 1: can't remember. I happen to meet these other podcasters when 567 00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:06,480 Speaker 1: while out and about once and hey, we're doing a 568 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,480 Speaker 1: podcast episode on like the history of last names, and 569 00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 1: it was fascinating. So, Hannah, whatever you decide, let us 570 00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: know listeners. If you have any suggestions for Hannah for 571 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: use your name, please send them our way. And I 572 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: wish you all the best in your in your upcoming wedding. 573 00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: Uh Annie, do you want to read the second letter 574 00:32:27,240 --> 00:32:29,760 Speaker 1: so I don't have to subject to our listeners to 575 00:32:29,920 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 1: my Tom Waits voice any longer than they have to 576 00:32:34,040 --> 00:32:39,040 Speaker 1: hear it. Sure, absolutely, Bridget, Actually I wish I founded 577 00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 1: like Tom Waits to way it sounds amazing. I was 578 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:44,480 Speaker 1: gonna say some people might like that. I don't know, 579 00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 1: all right, Kyle wrote, I recently enjoyed your podcasts on 580 00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:52,680 Speaker 1: online gaming and sexual harassment, and I felt I could 581 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 1: contribute some amount of information specifically to Bridget. You mentioned 582 00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: Super Mario Brothers too, and how it was like an 583 00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 1: acid trip. Fun fact that the reason it was so 584 00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 1: different from all the other Mario games is because it 585 00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,320 Speaker 1: was actually an entirely different game that was just rebranded 586 00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: to the Mario franchise. It was called Doky Dooki Panic. 587 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 1: When they replaced the characters with Mario ones, they put 588 00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,719 Speaker 1: Peach in there simply because the Mario franchise at that 589 00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: point had only a handful of characters Mario, Luigi, Toad, Peach, Bowser, 590 00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: and minions. I felt it was important to point out 591 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,720 Speaker 1: that even though you're excited to have Peach be playable, 592 00:33:28,040 --> 00:33:30,800 Speaker 1: it only really happened as an anomaly and feels like 593 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: it wasn't so much a conscious decision as much as 594 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,040 Speaker 1: a last resort. And depending on what you consider a 595 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 1: main series Mario game, Peach wouldn't return as a playable 596 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 1: character like this until twenty thirteen in Super Mario three 597 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 1: D World. However, Bridget, you touched upon something else that 598 00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 1: I think would have made for an interesting talking point 599 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,960 Speaker 1: that maybe both of you'd like to know. So I'd 600 00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 1: like to point it out that pink creature that spits 601 00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: out the eggs out of its face hole is called 602 00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:03,440 Speaker 1: bert Oh, who was introduced in this game. And interesting tidbit, 603 00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,120 Speaker 1: there is some evidence that Burdoh is the one transgender 604 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,399 Speaker 1: character in the Mario franchise, although the company would never 605 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:15,040 Speaker 1: acknowledge this. Berto was originally described as this quote, he 606 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,120 Speaker 1: thinks he is a girl, and he spits eggs from 607 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 1: his mouth. He'd rather be called Burdetta. If you'd like 608 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,560 Speaker 1: to know more about this, I actually talked about her 609 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:25,320 Speaker 1: on a podcast I co host in an episode related 610 00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,000 Speaker 1: to the topic about committing to depictions of same gender 611 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:31,320 Speaker 1: couples that I believe you touched on recently. I'll also 612 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 1: leave some links below. I's do your theory, bridget on 613 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,400 Speaker 1: the me too movement not fully affecting the entertainment industry, 614 00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 1: I'm inclined to agree with you. I've only worked on 615 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:42,040 Speaker 1: the fringes of the game industry and mobile and e 616 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 1: learning games, but from what I what I have seen 617 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,879 Speaker 1: has yet to come most artists in the industry. I've 618 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: seen Lane progressive as many artists tend to do, but 619 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,920 Speaker 1: there are executives upon executives to consider many with creative control, 620 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 1: even to the point that quote she's not pretty enough 621 00:34:58,120 --> 00:35:00,880 Speaker 1: is a common refrain I've heard when creating a female character, 622 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:05,160 Speaker 1: although that naturally has to overlap with animation industry, So 623 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 1: thank you for all of that. Kyle is fascinating. That 624 00:35:09,320 --> 00:35:12,480 Speaker 1: is fascinating. I mean, you've you've kind of blown my 625 00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,120 Speaker 1: mind a little bit. I always wondered why that game 626 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,239 Speaker 1: was so weird. Now it makes complete sense. And it 627 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,239 Speaker 1: also makes me sad that I think you're right that 628 00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 1: I was all excited that you even got to play 629 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 1: as Pete, but it does sound like they were they'd 630 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,839 Speaker 1: be garagingly let her involved in the gameplay. I really 631 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:31,719 Speaker 1: want to look more into this idea as Berno as 632 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:36,520 Speaker 1: the first trans game character. That is fascinating. You've given 633 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 1: me so many breadcrumbs to follow. I will get no 634 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:41,640 Speaker 1: sleep tonight. I will be I will be looking into 635 00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:44,000 Speaker 1: every one of these because this is this is fascinating. 636 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: What fun research though. Yeah, So thanks to both of 637 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:52,759 Speaker 1: them for writing in. If you would like to write 638 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 1: to us, you can do so. Our email is mom 639 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,320 Speaker 1: Stuff at how stuff works dot com. You can also 640 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: find us on social media run Instagram Stuff Mom Never 641 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,280 Speaker 1: Told You, and on Twitter at Mom and Stuff podcast. 642 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: And thanks as always to our producer Kathleen Quillian. Thank 643 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:14,200 Speaker 1: you Bridget for powering through. Thank you listeners for hopefully 644 00:36:14,239 --> 00:36:17,320 Speaker 1: not turning off this podcast once you heard my voice, 645 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,719 Speaker 1: I assure you that Kathleen Turner is not our new 646 00:36:20,760 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: co host. It's still me, but Kathleen Turner. If you're 647 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:27,480 Speaker 1: If you're around and interested, you know where to find 648 00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 1: is