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Speaker 1: Uh, I'm Robert Evans. This is Behind the Bastards, a

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Speaker 1: podcast that I just started with a tonal yelling. I guess, um,

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Speaker 1: oh boy, we are already behind the eight ball normally.

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Speaker 1: This I mean, this is a podcast where we talk

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Speaker 1: about bad people, the worst people in all of history,

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Speaker 1: and the bad things that they do. Um. One of

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Speaker 1: those bad people is me for not knowing how to

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Speaker 1: start my show, despite this being my only job to help.

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Speaker 1: I don't. I don't think that you were bad. Why

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Speaker 1: would you say you were bad? Thank you? Thank you?

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Speaker 1: But it's your job to keep me from spiraling into

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Speaker 1: into being unprofessional than you know. Who's great at being professional?

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Speaker 1: Is my guest today, Mr Miles W. Gray. Uh see

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Speaker 1: that's how you. That's the kind of a tonal shrieking

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Speaker 1: thank you for having me. You should use to start

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Speaker 1: a podcast. God damn it. Why can't I do it

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Speaker 1: that way you did? I mean, I merely just did

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Speaker 1: my own rendition of the the W and your name

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Speaker 1: stand for a winner? He hed W in my name Gray?

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Speaker 1: What where's W come from? Well? I'm just trying to

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Speaker 1: set you up for success in your future political career.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow, thank you so much. I mean, like, we know,

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Speaker 1: I'm not going to be well, I maybe I probably

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Speaker 1: eventually would it up as a politician, but first, you know,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to be a motivational speaker. We talked about

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Speaker 1: this university into Yeah, I will first create a fucking,

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Speaker 1: you know, gaggle of mindless stooges uh, and just turned

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Speaker 1: them into my political base. That's very appropriate, Miles, that

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Speaker 1: you're talking about creating a gaggle of my listooges kind

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Speaker 1: of a cult because we're talking about a cult today,

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Speaker 1: but we're also talking about a school. We're talking about

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Speaker 1: a cult that's a school, Miles. How do you feel

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Speaker 1: about kids? Man? Dude? Last time it was so fucking brutal? Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 1: how do I feel about I think kids are our

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Speaker 1: future and we need to nurture them and protect them

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Speaker 1: at all costs. Now, when you say nurture and protect,

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Speaker 1: does that mean bring them to operate an internal police

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Speaker 1: state based on violence and sexual assault in order to

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Speaker 1: control their own behavior and behavior of their peers. The

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Speaker 1: h we have fun, we do have fun. Um, We're

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Speaker 1: not going to have fun today. Today's a horrible episode.

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Speaker 1: Have you ever heard of the Alan School? No? How

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Speaker 1: do you spell it e l a in like the

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Speaker 1: French word, you know, alan. No, I feel like it's

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Speaker 1: maybe sounds familiar. Are there ones in l A at all? Good? God, No, No,

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Speaker 1: they're not any of these anywhere anymore. But existed. This

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Speaker 1: was the kind of school that could only exist in

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Speaker 1: the middle of nowhere Maine. And if you've ever been

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Speaker 1: to Maine, middle of nowhere, Maine is about as middle

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Speaker 1: of nowhere as you get, right. I've been up there

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Speaker 1: for hockey, m yeah, but the middle of nowhere. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Like that's like for people that are trying to be like, dude,

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Speaker 1: get the funk away from me. Yeah, and people who

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Speaker 1: don't want too many prying eyes over the school that

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Speaker 1: they're running, because it's actually just a series of horrible crimes. Now, miles,

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Speaker 1: a series of horrible crimes. I think we can all agree.

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Speaker 1: Kids are can be problematic, right, you know, their little

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Speaker 1: brains are still developing. All kids are gonna do shitty,

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Speaker 1: harmful things to themselves and to other people because they're

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Speaker 1: just kind of learning how to be functional human beings.

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Speaker 1: Pretty normal process of growing up. You're gonna say things

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Speaker 1: that hurt your parents. You know, you're probably gonna punch

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Speaker 1: your little brother or sister. You're gonna do something shitty, right,

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Speaker 1: every kid does just hard of being a kid, um,

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Speaker 1: and it gets you know, kind of taken up a

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Speaker 1: level when you're a teenager. Right. Teens lash out, say

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Speaker 1: horrible things. They maybe get involved with substances that are

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Speaker 1: that are going to be bad form. They they you know, uh,

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Speaker 1: steal a car. Kids do dumb shit, right, Um, teenagers do.

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Speaker 1: And I think any reasonable person or organization that's trying

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Speaker 1: to like take care of teenagers in particular will acknowledge that, like,

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Speaker 1: they're going to make mistakes because their brains aren't finished.

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Speaker 1: And so even if those mistakes are pretty serious, right,

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Speaker 1: things that might normally land an adult in prison, if

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Speaker 1: it's a child, you have to approach them with an

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Speaker 1: added level of compassion and understanding because their their brains

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Speaker 1: aren't done yet. Now, I think reasonable people can admit

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Speaker 1: that some kids have behavioral issues that make them dangerous

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Speaker 1: to themselves and others. I've had to work with some

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Speaker 1: of those kids. Um, I've had colleagues who got their

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Speaker 1: bones broken from some of those kids. There's a necessity

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Speaker 1: for specialists and even special facilities to help kids that

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Speaker 1: have behavioral problems that make them a danger to be around. Right, Um,

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Speaker 1: that's just a thing that is going to occur, and

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Speaker 1: of course people in the country. Yeah. Now, unfortunately, Miles,

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Speaker 1: this is the United States of America. And when you

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Speaker 1: start with the firmace that yeah, okay, maybe sometimes we

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Speaker 1: need a special facility for troubled kids, you open the

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Speaker 1: door for a whole new industry. And because capitalism is

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Speaker 1: what it is, when you have an industry for taking

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Speaker 1: care of troubled kids, you also have an industry that

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Speaker 1: has affected financial interest in making sure as many children

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Speaker 1: as possible are placed in those facilities, whether they need

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Speaker 1: the help or not. So where things get off the

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Speaker 1: rails here. So when you attach the profit motive to

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Speaker 1: dealing with absolutely problem, Okay, now we need a side

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Speaker 1: business mislabeling these kids so we can turn them into customers. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna start having to bribe some judges and bribe

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Speaker 1: some healthcare workers to force more kids into our Yeah. Um,

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Speaker 1: So the best way, if you're in the business of

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Speaker 1: running the facility for troubled kids, the best way to

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Speaker 1: improve your business is to convince parents, judges, the legal

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Speaker 1: system in the mental health system that a wide variety

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Speaker 1: behaviors um from talking back and smoking weed to getting

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Speaker 1: into fistfights at school justify incarceration and such facilities. Like

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Speaker 1: the kid I know who got sent to a facility

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Speaker 1: and it wasn't one of these facilities because he was

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Speaker 1: there was other stuff going on, but it was a

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Speaker 1: facility where he was in full time residential care. Uh.

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Speaker 1: He broke his his one of his parents arms. He

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Speaker 1: broke one of my colleagues jaws. He gave me a concussion.

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Speaker 1: Like it was like a the kid needed really dedicated help, right,

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Speaker 1: you can just eventually the school was like, we cannot

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Speaker 1: take care of this kid. It's not it's not it's

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Speaker 1: like he just farts at the wrong time class, Like no,

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Speaker 1: this is this is what we're talking something different. And

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Speaker 1: I want to make it clear when I talked about like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think there is a need for special facilities for

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Speaker 1: certain guts. That's the kind of kids. Like so you

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Speaker 1: know you're you're fucking stabbing people with like scissors or stuff.

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Speaker 1: I understanding, Yeah, And that has nothing to do with

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Speaker 1: the thing you're telling about this new business you were

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Speaker 1: opening that was like a facility for which I think

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Speaker 1: if I was going to tell you I could turn

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Speaker 1: in ten thousand dollar investment and do a hundred thousand

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Speaker 1: dollars of profit as long as you're able to get

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Speaker 1: two or three judges to just to just shutgun some

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Speaker 1: children my way. See my idea, Miles, is what helps

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Speaker 1: improve your character is an adult operating a rare earth

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Speaker 1: magnet mineral mind. So what if we take troubled children

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Speaker 1: and we forced them to mind in order to produce

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Speaker 1: the materials needed for our cell phones. The instri already

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Speaker 1: works off of slavery. This is slightly better than slavery.

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Speaker 1: I go, go on now, and how much do I

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Speaker 1: need to invest? Now? I just need to create some

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Speaker 1: compromat for these judges. Miles. Well, well, well, I'll send

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Speaker 1: you the prospectus later. But yeah, So the problem with

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Speaker 1: this is, right, there's a need for some facility like this,

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Speaker 1: but when it the profit motives gets attached to it,

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Speaker 1: you have these people who decide who like the there's

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Speaker 1: a vested interest in convincing parents and the legal system

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Speaker 1: that like, no, no, kids don't just need to be

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Speaker 1: put in special facilities if they're a danger to the

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Speaker 1: life and limb of other people. If they're smoking weed.

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Speaker 1: That's dangerous enough. You know. If they punched a kid

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Speaker 1: in school one time, that's bad enough. Let's get him

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Speaker 1: in the program. You know. That's that's how it happens

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Speaker 1: with all of these troubled team facilities. Now, at the

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Speaker 1: same time, if it's your business to treat kids in

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Speaker 1: this kind of a facility, the reality of capitalism means

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Speaker 1: that your priority is never, ever, not one single solitary

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Speaker 1: time as a business, at least to say that every

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Speaker 1: individual who works there field this way. But as a business,

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Speaker 1: your priority is never going to be rehabilitation, or education

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Speaker 1: or even basic health and safety. It will always be

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Speaker 1: maximizing profit. And one way to do that is to

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Speaker 1: hire people who will work for less money than such

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Speaker 1: a complicated job should rightly pay. And the people who

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Speaker 1: are willing to take that pay cut generally find other

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Speaker 1: than financial motives for the work, like the opportunity to

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Speaker 1: beat Moleste children. This is how the troubled team industry works, right,

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Speaker 1: This is what it's colloquially called troubled team facilities, the

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Speaker 1: troubled team industry, and these different facilities they run the

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Speaker 1: gamut from like wilderness facilities where you're dropping kids in

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Speaker 1: like the woods, basically ranch style offerings with like working

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Speaker 1: on a farm, military school style things, and institutions that

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Speaker 1: are harder to easily quantify, like the Allon School, which

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about in a minute now. When she was

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Speaker 1: a teen, Paris Hilton was sent to one such institution

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Speaker 1: called Provo Canyon, UM, which I think was more kind

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Speaker 1: of on the wilderness side of things, might have been

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Speaker 1: more of a ranch. But Provo Canyon is in Utah, UM,

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Speaker 1: and Utah, by the way, is like mecca for schools

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Speaker 1: that can legally abuse children. That's where most of these

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Speaker 1: facilities are. Utah makes a lot of money off of

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Speaker 1: systematically abusing children for profit UM, which is why the

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Speaker 1: legal system in Utah is set up to enable these schools.

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Speaker 1: So her Paris Hilton credits Provo Canyon, the school she

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Speaker 1: was sent to as a team for quote the most

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Speaker 1: vivid and traumatizing memories I've ever experienced in my entire life.

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Speaker 1: One particular memory helped fuel what has become a side

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Speaker 1: career for Paris Hilton and exposing the team treatment industry. Quote.

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Speaker 1: I continually experienced a nightmare where two men come into

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Speaker 1: my room in the middle of the night and kidnapped me.

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Speaker 1: It has caused me severe trauma, and I know it

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Speaker 1: is a tinpole of this industry that has caused millions

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Speaker 1: of survivors to suffer the same nightmares throughout their adult life. Now,

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Speaker 1: that experience that she had of people coming into her

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Speaker 1: house in the middle of the the night and kidnapping her, um,

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Speaker 1: that's really common. It happens to conservatively tens of thousands

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Speaker 1: of kids a year, some numbers of fifty all of

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Speaker 1: them get kidnapped, but a lot of them do. That's

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Speaker 1: the standard, right, Because you decide as a parent, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to send my kid to this horrible facility where

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Speaker 1: they'll be isolated and like abused until they stopped misbehaving. Well,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to like sit down and say, because

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Speaker 1: I caught you with weed, I'm sending you to the woods. Right,

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Speaker 1: So how do you avoid that awkward conversation you hire

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Speaker 1: men to abduct your child in the night, the night

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Speaker 1: because you're already such a good parent. I mean, I'm

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Speaker 1: guessing in the cases for kids whom, yeah, like for

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Speaker 1: the normal trouble teams that sort of people who actually

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Speaker 1: need it. Like you're saying a special care facility. But like,

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Speaker 1: let's say just a kid are smoking me. They're like,

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Speaker 1: that's it. We're having people disappear him in the middle

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Speaker 1: of the night because we as parents aren't willing to

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Speaker 1: have a conversation at all that will go through all

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Speaker 1: these lengths to just avoid any form of being an

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Speaker 1: adult in this situation. Like holy sh it. Yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: it's outrageous and horror and it's just horrific. Um. Yeah. So,

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Speaker 1: and there's there's companies that the service the company provides

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Speaker 1: is like they'll send a handful of psychopaths to kidnap

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Speaker 1: your child and like handcuff them or tied them up

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Speaker 1: and throw them in the back of a van and drive.

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Speaker 1: Like industry like, hey some kids dedicated guys. But yes,

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Speaker 1: there's companies that just snatch kids for profit then their parents.

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Speaker 1: It's it's very legal. You're like, as the parent, you

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Speaker 1: sign away permission for this. Um. So if they get

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Speaker 1: pulled over by the cops, they can say no, no, no no,

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Speaker 1: we're not abducting this we are abducting this child. But

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Speaker 1: the parents said, okay, oh no, here's the permission slip,

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Speaker 1: here's my bad, I'm a licensed child snatcher. No, I'm

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Speaker 1: a professional child abductor officer, like, and that's terrible bar

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Speaker 1: chat too when you meet somebody like children in the dead.

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Speaker 1: There's actually a kid tied up in the back of

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Speaker 1: my van right now, so the front seat though, Oh

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Speaker 1: that's okay, I was, I just need to take your order. Uh. So,

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Speaker 1: it is a crime, thankfully in twenty states, to send

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Speaker 1: children to gay conversion therapy, but it is perfectly legal

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Speaker 1: to send your child to a treatment sitter center for

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Speaker 1: anything else a parent regards as a flaw. So gay

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Speaker 1: conversion therapy is legal in a bunch of states. It's

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Speaker 1: not illegal really anywhere to send your child to a

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Speaker 1: treatment center. And the treatment center doesn't have to be

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Speaker 1: for like an actual problem that like I don't know

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Speaker 1: a psychiatrist someone say like, oh yeah, this kid has

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Speaker 1: this serious problem that needs special treatment. Anything you're not

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Speaker 1: happy with that your kid does counts right because as

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Speaker 1: a parent, you're the dictator of your child, because children

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Speaker 1: have no rights, like effectively not if the parent like

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Speaker 1: wants to do. Parents can do a lot of fund

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Speaker 1: up ship to their kids perfectly legally. There's a lot

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Speaker 1: of people who will fight in Congress for their right

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Speaker 1: to abuse their children systematically because this nation was I

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Speaker 1: don't know, a large chunk of the population of this

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Speaker 1: country believes that parents are the biblical sovereigns of their

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Speaker 1: children should be able to do anything they want to them. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's good ship. Uh. Now, as a parent, you have

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Speaker 1: the power to sign over physical control of your child

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Speaker 1: to an organization one of these teen treatment facilities, and

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Speaker 1: every year parents have around fifty kids do so. If

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Speaker 1: you listen to our two parter on Sinnnon with American

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Speaker 1: hero Paul Left Tompkins, you know that the troubled teen

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Speaker 1: industry got its start with that particular cult. Um have

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Speaker 1: you did you listen to those episodes? Miles, No, I

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Speaker 1: haven't heard that one. Cinnanon was a This will be

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Speaker 1: useful people who haven't listened to it yet all though

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Speaker 1: it's a pretty good two parter. Sinnon was a drug

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Speaker 1: the first drug rehab program like in the nation, like

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Speaker 1: focused on like dope as opposed to alcohol, and it

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Speaker 1: was kind of based initially off alcoholics anonymous like Sinning

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Speaker 1: s y in. Uh. Yeah, I thought it was like

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Speaker 1: super Christian like first Sinner Sinning. It wasn't, and it

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Speaker 1: was was founded by this guy Charles de Ork who

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Speaker 1: was UM an alcoholic and not a drug addict himself,

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Speaker 1: and he was he became a cult leader. This this

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Speaker 1: thing went from like people kind of living together in

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Speaker 1: this compound and like doing hard labor and UM. You know,

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Speaker 1: they had all these different things that they thought would

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Speaker 1: help keep you off drugs. One of them was called

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Speaker 1: the game, which was this therapeutic tool invented by Charles

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Speaker 1: Dedrick where everyone would sit around in a room, all

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Speaker 1: these addicts and they would scream abuse at each other.

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Speaker 1: They would just like insult each other, talk about what

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Speaker 1: they hated about each other. And it was this. The

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Speaker 1: idea was that like, oh, addicts need extra accountability because

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Speaker 1: they're so good at lying. So you you have this,

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Speaker 1: you know, this regular thing where you get to like

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Speaker 1: you get abused for things that you do. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: it's a way to blow off steam to um it

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Speaker 1: it was. Sent it on was hugely popular for a while.

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Speaker 1: UM judges were so enthusiastic about the practice that they

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Speaker 1: started sending children who have been caught with dope to

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Speaker 1: sent it on UM. And because these kids, most of

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Speaker 1: the people who went to sinning on and got involved,

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Speaker 1: like wanted help, like, we're addicts, but these kids didn't

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Speaker 1: like it generally weren't serious addicts, but also didn't want

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Speaker 1: to be there, so they had to develop these really

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Speaker 1: brutal rules for like punishing them and cracking down and

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Speaker 1: stopping them from escaping and keeping them in line. Um.

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Speaker 1: And it became physically abusive too, and mentally abusive obviously. Um.

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Speaker 1: But that was not why Sentnon got in trouble, right.

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Speaker 1: Send it On eventually got in trouble because they tried

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Speaker 1: to assassinate a lawyer with a rattlesnake after building their

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Speaker 1: own army in California. Um, that was quite a story, miles,

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Speaker 1: I mean, so passe. And assassinating a lawyer with the

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Speaker 1: arm I mean, come on. So sent it On is

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Speaker 1: where the troubled teen industry gets a start, right. This

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Speaker 1: is the first time that judges are like, oh, we

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Speaker 1: don't have to just throw these kids in prison, which

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Speaker 1: is admittedly the wrong thing to do with the kid

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Speaker 1: who you've caught with weed or something. But instead of like,

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Speaker 1: we just hand them over to this weird cult and

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Speaker 1: the cult will abuse them until they don't smoke pot anymore,

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Speaker 1: and this will solve our problems. Forever okayament out of them. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: By the yearly sixties, sent Anon was a bona fide phenomenon,

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Speaker 1: and they inspired a dizzy variety of imitators who used

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Speaker 1: variations of their methods. One of these imitators was the

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Speaker 1: day Top Village in New York, which is actually the

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Speaker 1: second ever drug rehab program in the United States. It

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Speaker 1: was created in nineteen sixty three, just five years after

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Speaker 1: Sentnon started UM, and the day Top Village followed what

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Speaker 1: they called a therapeutic community style of treatment UM, which

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Speaker 1: is where the actual work of rehabilitation is done by

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Speaker 1: other addicts, counseling and holding each other accountable. This is

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Speaker 1: the same thing sent Anon dead, and part of what

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Speaker 1: they mean by that is again you all sit in

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Speaker 1: a room together and yell abuse at each other. UM.

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Speaker 1: Some people said this helps, but I've never gone, I've

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Speaker 1: never been addicted to hair owen. Maybe maybe a mean

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Speaker 1: don't try it, I guess yeah, um, and it's worth

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Speaker 1: a day Toop Village has not been accused of the

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Speaker 1: same kind of abuse of Centnon, and they never tried

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Speaker 1: to build their own marine corps or assassinate a lawyer

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Speaker 1: with a Rattlesnake, So a lot of problematic things about

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Speaker 1: day Top. They didn't go as over the goddamn top

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Speaker 1: as a cent Anon did. For our purposes. Day Top

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Speaker 1: Village in New York is noteworthy because in the late

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixties a troubled eighteen year old named Joe Ritchie

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Speaker 1: was sent there. Joe would go on to create the

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Speaker 1: Alan School, which might be the most abuse of troubled

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Speaker 1: teen institution who ever exist. But to properly tell that story,

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Speaker 1: we've got to go back in time again and give

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Speaker 1: Joe's back story. So I had to talk about where

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Speaker 1: the troubled teen industry starts. Let's talk about Joe a

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Speaker 1: little bit. He was born in port Chester, New York,

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Speaker 1: in nineteen forty five to parents who were deeply troubled.

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Speaker 1: They split up and we don't know why, but a

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Speaker 1: hint as to why may come from the fact that

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Speaker 1: his father, Frank, was nicknamed Bamboo because he was so

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Speaker 1: good at bouncing back after getting punched in the face

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Speaker 1: during the near constant bar fights he had at local bombs.

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Speaker 1: Like his nickname in town was because like that guy

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Speaker 1: could get wow, He's really good to get the ship bunched.

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Speaker 1: Out of a fus bamboo bamboo called bamboo because he's

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Speaker 1: so good to get punched and what do I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's a weird for those the vibe of those people

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Speaker 1: who just take shots like and are like kind of

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Speaker 1: sad and like bar fight immortals. I can't imagine the

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Speaker 1: energy sorting around that kind of person. I'm not surprised

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Speaker 1: his marriage didn't last. Yeah, he's like, yeah, I don't

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Speaker 1: even know how to respond to physical stimulus, no less

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Speaker 1: verbal to adjust any kind of great emotions. Guy. He

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Speaker 1: was a day laborer and known locally as quote a

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Speaker 1: kingpin of bar fights. Um. He was violent but also charming,

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Speaker 1: which is probably how he snared in Santro Joe Richie's mother. Now,

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Speaker 1: the sant Toro's and the Richies were both Italian American families,

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Speaker 1: but the Santorro family did the Ritchie family because the

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Speaker 1: Richie family was newer to the country and didn't speak

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Speaker 1: English very well. Um. When Anne and Frank split up,

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Speaker 1: she signed over custody of her son, Joe to her parents,

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Speaker 1: Michael and Angela, and Joe was raised by his maternal

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Speaker 1: grandparents and several other relatives. Um. So from the beginning

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Speaker 1: this kid doesn't have you know, his mom when she

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Speaker 1: splits up with his husband, like signs over custody to

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Speaker 1: his grandparents, which is kind of an odd move as well. Um,

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Speaker 1: but this is also a period in which single motherhood

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Speaker 1: is really in some cases, like even legally penalized. So like,

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Speaker 1: I guess it makes a degree of sense as to

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Speaker 1: why this happened. Um. The Santaro family where Joe was

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Speaker 1: raised was They were poor but proud, and they regularly

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Speaker 1: attended Mass at the Holy Rosary Church. As a young child,

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Speaker 1: Joe was an altar boy. He spent time at the

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Speaker 1: community center, where he learned to box and play basketball.

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Speaker 1: One of his friends at the time, Victornato, remembered him

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Speaker 1: this way quote. We called him Joe Rich. He was

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Speaker 1: a good guy, but I've never seen anyone as wild.

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Speaker 1: Joe was really tough. If he were nice to him,

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Speaker 1: he'd be your friend, but you didn't want to mess

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Speaker 1: with him. He was always looking over his shoulder, and

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Speaker 1: if you did something to cross him, he'd never let

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Speaker 1: you forget it. Joe Rich was sharp, knew how to survive.

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Speaker 1: I used to think he had nine lives. If he

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Speaker 1: did something really wrong, he'd get out of it, someone

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Speaker 1: else would take the heat. He always had himself covered.

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Speaker 1: It seems Joe rich knew where to go. He was

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Speaker 1: definitely ahead of his time. When we were involved in

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Speaker 1: basketball games, he was thinking about stealing cars. I really

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Speaker 1: figured he'd eventually be successful, either that or debt. Wow,

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00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,399
Speaker 1: that's a wild thing to say. He's also got a

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Speaker 1: little bit bamboo DNA too to him with the Nine Lives.

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Speaker 1: I just like when you first said it's like while

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Speaker 1: we were playing basketball, I thought you were saying like

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Speaker 1: he was like he like in the middle of the

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Speaker 1: basketball game, he's like checked out. He's like, how are

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Speaker 1: you going to steal these cars? And he gets hit

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Speaker 1: in ahead of the basketball I think that's come on,

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Speaker 1: Sorry man, you think about stealing cars again? Fuck dude,

399
00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:56,960
Speaker 1: we're gonna lose. Yeah, yeah, sorry? Uh now, Miles, you

400
00:20:56,960 --> 00:21:01,400
Speaker 1: know who else likes to steal cars? Uh? These average tisers? Yep.

401
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,760
Speaker 1: We are entirely sponsored by a ring of car thieves

402
00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 1: and shop chop shops. If you're looking for a nice

403
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:13,399
Speaker 1: new stolen car, checking out one of these pacers. If

404
00:21:13,400 --> 00:21:15,880
Speaker 1: you're looking for that catalytic converter that I took out,

405
00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:20,080
Speaker 1: check out one of these ads. I mean, look, we're

406
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:23,400
Speaker 1: podcast host so when we're not recording, we're both actively

407
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:26,199
Speaker 1: out and about stealing the catalytic converters. Were just like,

408
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:29,919
Speaker 1: when well some people are thinking about podcasts, all you

409
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:31,680
Speaker 1: and I are thinking about is how we're getting more

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00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:35,760
Speaker 1: catalytic converters out of Honda's. Yeah, that's that's that's my

411
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Speaker 1: whole life. Man. You should have seen me, man, it was.

412
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Speaker 1: It was the twenties. I was podcasting ceiling catalytic convert

413
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Speaker 1: converters at it made out of catalytic converters. Down the street.

414
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Speaker 1: People said, oh, that's the cat King of Portlands. There

415
00:21:55,040 --> 00:22:07,000
Speaker 1: he is. Catman. Uh, here's some adsh we're back and

416
00:22:07,040 --> 00:22:14,040
Speaker 1: we're thinking about stealing catalytic converters. The new business for

417
00:22:14,600 --> 00:22:17,280
Speaker 1: the new Furby. Yeah, it's the new Ferby. Look, the

418
00:22:17,320 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 1: economy is heading for another downturn. Can you afford not

419
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:24,920
Speaker 1: to learn how to steal catalytic converters? That's all sphening

420
00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:29,040
Speaker 1: catalytic converters. Oh yeah, you gotta know how to siphon. Now.

421
00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 1: The good thing about siphoning is the sucking skills that

422
00:22:31,880 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 1: you use while siphoning are useful in a variety of

423
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 1: other endeavors, especially other quasi legal endeavors you're going to

424
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,199
Speaker 1: have to engage in to make a living when the

425
00:22:40,200 --> 00:22:45,240
Speaker 1: economy collapses, which is unclogging toilets with a hose. I

426
00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 1: don't know what you're thinking, folks, Come on, don't be filthy,

427
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 1: you you, you don't be filthy. Picture someone sucking ship

428
00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:56,760
Speaker 1: through a hose from a toilet. Where Why did you

429
00:22:56,800 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 1: have me back, Miles, because we got to talk about

430
00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:04,600
Speaker 1: some really profound child See I always do this. I'm like, yeah,

431
00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 1: it's a little bit of a good time. Really wait

432
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:08,240
Speaker 1: wait wait, wait, wait wait now remember the show I

433
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,840
Speaker 1: had you on ONTs to talk about the Trump University

434
00:23:10,880 --> 00:23:13,760
Speaker 1: and after that it's just been bleaker and bleaker. Yeah,

435
00:23:14,280 --> 00:23:17,840
Speaker 1: but you know, I like, I like, yeah, that's good.

436
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:20,440
Speaker 1: So Joe Richie is one of the kinds of guys

437
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:22,080
Speaker 1: we deal with from time to time on this show.

438
00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:24,240
Speaker 1: He's famous enough that we have pretty good texture on

439
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:26,880
Speaker 1: his early life, but he's obscure enough that there's also

440
00:23:26,920 --> 00:23:30,000
Speaker 1: a lot of unanswered questions because, like you're talking about

441
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,200
Speaker 1: a guy like Hitler, there's like a bunch of really

442
00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:35,359
Speaker 1: good biographers who have all covered his child and you

443
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 1: can get different. You can find the answer to pretty

444
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 1: much every factual question about his early life. And one

445
00:23:40,480 --> 00:23:43,400
Speaker 1: of those books, if you read enough biography. We only

446
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: have one biography of Joe Ritchie, and pretty much all

447
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 1: of my info about his early life comes from the

448
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,000
Speaker 1: book Duck in a Raincoat by Mara Curley, and I

449
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:53,120
Speaker 1: think it's a very good book. But there are moments

450
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:54,679
Speaker 1: like the one I'm about to quote, where you know

451
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:59,440
Speaker 1: there's a deeper story lurking quote. Donano said, Richie dated

452
00:23:59,480 --> 00:24:02,200
Speaker 1: his social science teacher in junior high, a tall, dark

453
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:06,199
Speaker 1: haired beauty just out of college. Now that sounds like

454
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 1: statutory rape to me, right, what the fuck? Junior high? Yeah? Yeah,

455
00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 1: and his friends just like, oh yeah, he was dating

456
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 1: one of the teachers. And it's like thirteen year old. Yeah,

457
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 1: that's thirteen, fourteen and two, Like that's the youngest she

458
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:32,240
Speaker 1: could be is twenty two, and it's like taking him.

459
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,719
Speaker 1: I guess it's fine, Um, but I didn't think that

460
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,880
Speaker 1: was the case. Jesus, And that's it. It's just merely

461
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:41,119
Speaker 1: like he was really cool. He was also a teacher

462
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 1: when he was like fourteen. Yeah, no, that's how it

463
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 1: was going. I don't know. I don't know. Did you

464
00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:47,879
Speaker 1: have a lot of weird abandonment issues because of the

465
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: thing with his mom and older women? I don't know.

466
00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:51,159
Speaker 1: I mean, we could talk about that, but it like

467
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 1: one of the and it seems like his friends it

468
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,880
Speaker 1: was one of the stereotypic things, Well she's hot, it's cool, right,

469
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,159
Speaker 1: Like I think that's the attitude the other kids had

470
00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:02,280
Speaker 1: about it. Um, Obviously this is rape, even if it

471
00:25:02,359 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 1: is something that he went to his grave thinking was

472
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,840
Speaker 1: like fine, like it's that doesn't make it. That's why

473
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:12,040
Speaker 1: it's statutory, right, that's what that is. UM. Now, hearing that,

474
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:15,840
Speaker 1: hearing that he had this like relationship with a teacher

475
00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 1: much older than him, that he thought nothing, apparently didn't

476
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:21,480
Speaker 1: think anything about I can't help but wonder if like,

477
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 1: well he's an altar boy too, did anything like you know, like,

478
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,399
Speaker 1: you can't not consider that given the prevalence of abuse

479
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: in the Catholic Church. Um And I actually did look

480
00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 1: up a comprehensive report on sexual assault allegations against priests

481
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 1: in the Archdiocese of New York. It's a hundred and

482
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: twenty five pages. Because the Catholic Church, um And, while

483
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,520
Speaker 1: there are four molester priests who were stationed in port Chester,

484
00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,040
Speaker 1: where Joe lived. The earliest left in nineteen forty four,

485
00:25:49,080 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 1: and the others didn't start doing their thing until the

486
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,880
Speaker 1: late sixties, seventies and early eighties, so there's not even

487
00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:58,439
Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence to suggest anything happened about this. Um, I

488
00:25:58,480 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 1: just wanted to let you guys know I did canto

489
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 1: it because I wanted to say whatever the truth. Joe

490
00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,600
Speaker 1: grew up into a troubled adolescent. He skipped school constantly.

491
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 1: He and his friends would regularly steel pies from a

492
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,359
Speaker 1: neighbor for pie fights, which is an adorable sort of

493
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 1: child crying right, yes, like that still cooling? Yeah, that's

494
00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:22,120
Speaker 1: how it sounds, right. It sounds like some Andy Griffith level.

495
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:24,040
Speaker 1: It sounds like the kind of crime you'd said Bartie

496
00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 1: fifout to deal with, right exactly. It's steal and pies, barn,

497
00:26:28,640 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: what's that guy? Like a Norman Rockwell painting of like

498
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:36,280
Speaker 1: you know, future cult leader steal and pies for pie fights. Unfortunately,

499
00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 1: it didn't stay cool cute. When he was fifteen, Joe

500
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 1: went joy riding with some of his friends. You have

501
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 1: to assume they were drunk, but we're not. We don't

502
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:47,560
Speaker 1: know that. Um, they crashed and he was flung from

503
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: the car seatbelts were just a fever dream in nineteen

504
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 1: sixty and he spent months in the hospital and then

505
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 1: more months in physical therapy, had to learn how to

506
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 1: walk again, Like, which is like, that's like a level

507
00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,360
Speaker 1: of injury severity is you have to relearn how to walk, Like, Yeah,

508
00:27:02,680 --> 00:27:07,880
Speaker 1: it's a bad accident. Scrambled a little bit, Yeah, yeah,

509
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:09,960
Speaker 1: I got I got a little bit. Yeah, scrambled was

510
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:13,119
Speaker 1: a good word for it. So some of Joe's family

511
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,160
Speaker 1: later told Maura Curley that this accident was a negative

512
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 1: turning point in his life, possibly because he was given

513
00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 1: a lot of drugs while he was recovering and he

514
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 1: got addicted to the drugs. Um, there's debate over this.

515
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,640
Speaker 1: That would make sense, right, A lot of people's pain

516
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 1: killer addiction starts because they are in some sort of

517
00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 1: horrible accident where they get pain killers. Now, about a

518
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 1: year after he got out of the hospital, his family

519
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,240
Speaker 1: sent him to a residential treatment facility for difficult boys

520
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,160
Speaker 1: called p i n S, or Persons in need of Treatment.

521
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:43,399
Speaker 1: So and again, we don't have a we don't have

522
00:27:43,440 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 1: as much texture about why, as I would like to have.

523
00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: But it seems like he recovers from this and his

524
00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 1: parents decide he needs to go to a facility. And

525
00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:52,840
Speaker 1: it may have been just because like, oh, he's been

526
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,399
Speaker 1: joy writing. He was like stealing guards or whatever with

527
00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:57,919
Speaker 1: his friends. They were joy writing. This is clearly a problem.

528
00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:59,960
Speaker 1: Once he recovers, let's send him to a treatment facil

529
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:02,440
Speaker 1: That may as soon as he recovers from a horrific

530
00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:05,280
Speaker 1: car wreck that rendered him unable to walk, that he

531
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,520
Speaker 1: had to relearn it, then let's just send him away,

532
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,640
Speaker 1: send him which questionable parenting, I would say, Um, at

533
00:28:11,640 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 1: that point, are his parents? You're saying his parents are

534
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 1: his maternal grandparents? Are so not making following along? Ye,

535
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,399
Speaker 1: but they're the ones who raise him. Um. So he

536
00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: stays in this treatment facility for two years and then

537
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 1: returns to high school in nineteen sixty three, where he

538
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,920
Speaker 1: stayed until he left without graduating in nineteen sixty six

539
00:28:29,920 --> 00:28:32,600
Speaker 1: at age twenty one. So he's in high school at

540
00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: age twenty one, which sounds like a nightmare. He shit,

541
00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:43,360
Speaker 1: which also shouldn't be allowed. What's the what's the how

542
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 1: does the time work? He was fifteen when he got

543
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: on the car wreck. Yeah, fifteen, and then he's like

544
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,160
Speaker 1: seventeen or eighteen when he gets back from the treatment program.

545
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: And then he stays in high school for three more years,

546
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: so he was like starting sophomore year at like eighteen

547
00:28:56,920 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: or something. I think, so I think he like he

548
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: what A that's a weird vibe. That's weird, especially since

549
00:29:04,400 --> 00:29:07,080
Speaker 1: at fourteen he's fucking a teacher. And then at twenty

550
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 1: one he's still in the school, Like that's real hungover

551
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,760
Speaker 1: and then they're like, well, what, it's not illegal, and

552
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,840
Speaker 1: this is this is a school in the sixties, so

553
00:29:18,880 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: I have to assume all of the kids were drunk

554
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 1: a hundred percent of the time, as were the teachers,

555
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 1: as were the teachers God willing um, and everyone was

556
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: chain smoking. So it's less weird than it would be today. Now,

557
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 1: the same year in the nineteen sixties six when he

558
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 1: leaves high school. So he leaves. He doesn't leave high

559
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 1: school because he's like I'm done with school. He leaves

560
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: because he hijacks and mail truck um, or at least

561
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,320
Speaker 1: tries to rob it. The details around the crime are

562
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:48,959
Speaker 1: a little bit uncertain, but as best as I can determine.

563
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 1: It seems like he and his lawyer decided to claim

564
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 1: that he'd done it because he was a heroin addict

565
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 1: and was desperate for money. Some sources, some of his friends,

566
00:29:56,840 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 1: well some of not his friends. Some sources like usually

567
00:29:59,840 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 1: when you find his life reported on an articles, they'll

568
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: say he was a heroin addict and that's why he

569
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,880
Speaker 1: robs this mail truck and gets sent to the facility

570
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:12,280
Speaker 1: he's sent to. That's not what Mara Curly, his only biographer, thinks,

571
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,960
Speaker 1: And that because and she doesn't think that because people

572
00:30:15,000 --> 00:30:17,480
Speaker 1: she talked to who were friends of Joe Richie's during

573
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,320
Speaker 1: this period of time don't think he was a heroin addict.

574
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 1: Like he did a little bit of heroin, but he

575
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:24,880
Speaker 1: wasn't like a hardcore addict. He wasn't like he was

576
00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 1: robbing ship. But he wasn't robbing ship because his heroin

577
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:29,600
Speaker 1: addiction was so bad. That's what some of his friends.

578
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 1: He liked the thrill of the robbery. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

579
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,400
Speaker 1: he wanted ship. Um. I don't know, I didn't know

580
00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: the guy. Um, but this was a really good time

581
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: in American history to try to to go to a

582
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,200
Speaker 1: judge and say, hey, I did it because I'm a

583
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:46,560
Speaker 1: drug addict and I need to go to a treatment

584
00:30:46,600 --> 00:30:49,640
Speaker 1: facility rather than prison. Because, as we just talked about,

585
00:30:49,640 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 1: sinning On was at the peak of its fame in

586
00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: the late sixties, and so it had just become popular

587
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,040
Speaker 1: for judges to send people to programs like this rather

588
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: than sending them to prison straight. It's funny how we

589
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 1: went for like full circle of being like yeah, and

590
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: like we want to have some little bit of compassion

591
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: even though side to some really funked up organization to

592
00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 1: amassing carceration the people again like yeah, let's do some

593
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: rehabilitation before incarceration again. Okay, Okay, we're back there again. Yeah,

594
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: So it's not the wrong thing from the judge's point

595
00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: of view. I guess it's also possibility lied about the

596
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 1: addiction because it's a lot better to go to one

597
00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: of these facilities and fun right now, whatever the truth.

598
00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 1: Joe goes to the day Top village in New York

599
00:31:27,240 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: and he thrives there. Um, he's really good at the game.

600
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: These sessions that he participates in with other addicts where

601
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: you're like telling each other about your faults and flaws

602
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,479
Speaker 1: and stuff. He's really good he's very good at it.

603
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,880
Speaker 1: Like there's like a break or rankings. It's like have

604
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: you seen Joe in the game. It's a social thing,

605
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 1: so everyone is supposed to take turns kind of picking

606
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,080
Speaker 1: an individual and like talking about the things they don't

607
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:51,959
Speaker 1: like about that person. That's that's like kind of how

608
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,960
Speaker 1: it goes. Some people are good at directing those sort

609
00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 1: of group conversations. They're good at controlling them. They're good

610
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 1: at getting other people to get hang up on someone.

611
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:04,040
Speaker 1: They're good at avoiding being the focus of negative attention themselves.

612
00:32:04,640 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 1: And this is a thing that's been observed by psychologists

613
00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:12,920
Speaker 1: and stuff about UM. Sociopaths in particular are very good

614
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 1: at group therapy. Like they they're good. They're they're good

615
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 1: at manipulating people. It's what they do UM and so

616
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 1: they know how to take advantage of these places and

617
00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 1: kind of one of the dangers and this is we

618
00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 1: talked about this in the Cinnanon episode and I found

619
00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: a study on this. It's been noted that a number

620
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:31,880
Speaker 1: of cults have come out of different alcoholics anonymous groups.

621
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 1: And this is not like me shipping on a I

622
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: know people who swear by it, but it's a problem

623
00:32:37,680 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: that has been noted with a A is that sometimes

624
00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: these these kind of group therapy sessions, individuals within them

625
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: gain a level of mental control of other people in them,

626
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: and they turn into cults. It's happened a handful of times.

627
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:52,320
Speaker 1: That's how Sentanon started. Um. So it's like it's the

628
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: the material for star more. Formation is present at a cult.

629
00:32:56,680 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 1: Formation is present and if with the right ingredients, it

630
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 1: may leave in the right and it can happen. Which

631
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,080
Speaker 1: is it's more this is again less of a flaw

632
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:05,480
Speaker 1: in a and more of just like this is how

633
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 1: people work a This is one of the things they're

634
00:33:08,600 --> 00:33:11,360
Speaker 1: vulnerable to because of the you know, other other things.

635
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 1: Churches are vulnerable to this thing too. Right, it's not

636
00:33:13,800 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: exacting on a here, but it's a known quantity in

637
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: these kinds of organizations. And Joe is very good at that.

638
00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 1: That's what I mean when I say that he was

639
00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: good at the game, he's right right reippillating people in

640
00:33:24,560 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 1: this way. I was being stupid and acting as if

641
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 1: they were like the game at Richie killing it. He

642
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 1: brought up, as you know, his paternal abandonment issues. It's fantastic.

643
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: He's like I do kind of now want like football announcers,

644
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:46,480
Speaker 1: like covering therapy. Oh, we just talked about the fact

645
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:49,360
Speaker 1: that his dad used to hit him. He went there,

646
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 1: he went there. You didn't think he's going to go

647
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:53,440
Speaker 1: there this early on. And I think he's going to

648
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: counter with something about his mother's inability to say that

649
00:33:57,680 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: she loved him. Yep. Okay, Oh my god, you just

650
00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 1: brought up the time he left the gate open and

651
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: the dog got out and was hit by a car. Oh,

652
00:34:06,280 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 1: she's bringing out pictures of the sister. She's bringing out

653
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 1: pictures of the sister. We have not seen this in

654
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:13,839
Speaker 1: a long time. Richard usually doesn't just emailed me. Um,

655
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 1: they're giving us forty two million dollars to make this show.

656
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,440
Speaker 1: An algorithm just deemed it, so thank you Netflix algorithm.

657
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 1: So um, yeah, I guess this is what we're this is, Sophie.

658
00:34:25,560 --> 00:34:29,439
Speaker 1: Let's U cancel the show for the day. Yeah. Yeah,

659
00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure the eventually they're gonna be like, this

660
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:35,520
Speaker 1: is what we're thinking, Robert, we're noticing how big Pokemon

661
00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 1: is and how big your podcast is. What about behind

662
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:42,720
Speaker 1: the Bastard's Man, where it's you got to catch them all? Okay,

663
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 1: and it's this anime series and it's a little bit

664
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 1: of everything. Huh, how do what do you think about that? Huh? Yeah,

665
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 1: the algorithm says it's going to be a fucking hit.

666
00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 1: I mean, look, I'll do anything for enough money to

667
00:34:53,600 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 1: buy an armored vehicle. Now there there's news for you.

668
00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: Got to just all your bastard mon You gotta catch

669
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:03,960
Speaker 1: them all. Got to catch all of the route clearance vehicles.

670
00:35:04,200 --> 00:35:08,399
Speaker 1: Um So, he's really good. He goes to day Top.

671
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: He's really good at the game. He learns he starts

672
00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 1: this is really when he learns like that he has

673
00:35:12,520 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: a gift for actually kind of like manipulating people. And

674
00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:17,680
Speaker 1: at first he's doing in such a way that he's

675
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 1: trying to like I think, I don't know, I don't

676
00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:21,279
Speaker 1: know how much he sees it this way. But other

677
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:23,840
Speaker 1: people see it as like he's helping them deal with

678
00:35:23,880 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: their addiction issues, right Like. They don't see it as like, oh,

679
00:35:26,640 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 1: he's doing cult leadership. They see it's like, oh, this

680
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,520
Speaker 1: kid is charismatic and understands people and as good at

681
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:33,760
Speaker 1: getting them to see their own flaws and their faults

682
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:37,280
Speaker 1: and help them work through in process their adding Um

683
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: So he gets a lot of praise within day Top,

684
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: and pretty soon he becomes like their most prominent member.

685
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 1: He's giving speeches and raising funds for the organization and

686
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:49,720
Speaker 1: becomes their number one fundraiser. So he's like going outside

687
00:35:49,719 --> 00:35:51,520
Speaker 1: of the group to like raise money for them and

688
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: other and to talk about like how good they are

689
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:57,160
Speaker 1: like stopping people from being addicted and stuff. Um. And

690
00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: he later recalled that previously quote, I've done the therapy bit,

691
00:36:00,360 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: but this blew my mind. In other words, he'd done

692
00:36:02,600 --> 00:36:04,840
Speaker 1: therapy before, but therapy didn't give him the chance to

693
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:07,399
Speaker 1: like manipulate a bunch of people, and he really likes

694
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 1: manipulating a bunch of people. Yeah, it's like in all

695
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:13,200
Speaker 1: you can manipulate buffet in there. I can't believe that's

696
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 1: exactly the case. So he's happy at Day Top. This

697
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:19,120
Speaker 1: is an influential moment for him, but he doesn't agree

698
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:21,040
Speaker 1: with all of their therapy. For one thing, they all

699
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,120
Speaker 1: had to shave their heads, which was something that sent

700
00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 1: it on dead and he thought that was weird. He

701
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 1: also butted heads with the administrators when they told him

702
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: he wasn't ready to graduate, and eventually he ran away

703
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:32,279
Speaker 1: from the program. I think they wanted to keep him

704
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 1: there because he was so good at raising money, right, Like, yeah,

705
00:36:35,280 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 1: we get that guy up now at the time, like

706
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,600
Speaker 1: right around when he runs away from Day Top, he

707
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:44,200
Speaker 1: starts dating a woman named Sherry in New York. Now,

708
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,919
Speaker 1: Sherry was working at a travel agency, and she fell

709
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,720
Speaker 1: for Joe in part because she was that her parents

710
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,880
Speaker 1: were alcoholics, and he understood the issue she faced as

711
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: a child of alcoholics. He understands abuse or not abuse,

712
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 1: but drug abuse really well, right, he's just been counseling

713
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: people he's actually able to like talk with Obviously, that's

714
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 1: a thing that would like draw you to someone. You

715
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:05,600
Speaker 1: have this horrible experience, He understands. It makes sense why

716
00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: they why they get together. When Richie left Daytop, he

717
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,600
Speaker 1: moves right in with Sherry and her roommate, and at

718
00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:13,680
Speaker 1: first she says things were great. He cleaned to the house,

719
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:16,720
Speaker 1: he would bring her little little gifts. He successfully wooed

720
00:37:16,719 --> 00:37:18,719
Speaker 1: her so well that she canceled her plans to move

721
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: to New York City and train as a stewardess. The

722
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:23,879
Speaker 1: two were engaged to be married, but early on there

723
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:27,520
Speaker 1: were unsettling signs about the man that he might really

724
00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: be quote and This is from duck in a raincoat.

725
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 1: Richie sued Sherry's insurance company for injuries he said he

726
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 1: sustained during a minor traffic accident. Sherry had run a

727
00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: stoplight and hadn't thought he was more and hadn't thought

728
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 1: he was even injured, but her insurance company settled the claim.

729
00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:45,839
Speaker 1: Richie used the money to buy her an engagement ring.

730
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:48,680
Speaker 1: So he shoes her insurance company in order to get

731
00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:54,279
Speaker 1: money to buy her a ring, which is wow, this guy, Yeah,

732
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 1: this is some for d scumbag ship. That's kind of

733
00:37:57,719 --> 00:37:59,879
Speaker 1: a sign this guy might be a little bit that's

734
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 1: that's a little slimy. Yeah, but hey, the rings beautiful.

735
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a it's an insurance company, right, If

736
00:38:06,800 --> 00:38:08,400
Speaker 1: that is the only I wouldn't judge a guy for

737
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:13,000
Speaker 1: that necessarily because like, yeah, I get whatever Mon's I

738
00:38:13,120 --> 00:38:16,920
Speaker 1: find ways to extract things with very little effort and

739
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 1: I don't care how underhanded it is. Yeah, that's what

740
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 1: this says about him. Now, Sherry seems to have been

741
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,600
Speaker 1: fined about this um, but this bit of insurance fraud

742
00:38:25,600 --> 00:38:27,439
Speaker 1: would prove to be the beginning of a fairly long

743
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:31,080
Speaker 1: career in insurance fraud. The two were married in December

744
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 1: of nineteen sixty nine. They were both twenty four. Richie

745
00:38:34,520 --> 00:38:36,880
Speaker 1: needed a job, and since his only real life experience

746
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 1: was either crimes or manipulating institutions, he decided to get

747
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:41,839
Speaker 1: a job working at the kind of place he'd been

748
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 1: sent as a kid. He heard about a pilot program

749
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:47,920
Speaker 1: being launched for drug addicts in Connecticut. It was called Dartek,

750
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:50,280
Speaker 1: and it was one of the first programs to include

751
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: both medical professionals and former addicts working side by side

752
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 1: to counsel people, which seemed like a much better idea

753
00:38:56,480 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: than the synnon method of addicts mentally abusing other addicts

754
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,479
Speaker 1: to keep them sober. The founder of the program, doctor

755
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:05,439
Speaker 1: Donald Pett, hired Joe Ritchie after a phone interview because

756
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 1: he seemed persuasive. Quote, Joe had a very unusual way

757
00:39:08,880 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 1: of getting many of the street people to follow him.

758
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,360
Speaker 1: He often got people to rally around him, kind of

759
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: see things his way, do his bidding again some cult leadership.

760
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 1: You know, wow, the street people that they said, yeah, yeah,

761
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 1: they're talking about all these people there now. One of

762
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:26,840
Speaker 1: the other staff members at Dartek introduced Ritchie to a

763
00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 1: Massachusetts psychiatrist, named Gerald Davidson. The two weren't coworkers long

764
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,400
Speaker 1: before Richie and Sherry moved again to another job at

765
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:37,800
Speaker 1: a drug counseling center called Survival Ink. But Joe clearly

766
00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: made an impact on Dr Davidson, one that was out

767
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:43,880
Speaker 1: of step with his actual skill in treating addiction. Evidence

768
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 1: for this is that Joe brought three Dartek staff members

769
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,359
Speaker 1: with him to Survival Link and all three of them

770
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,840
Speaker 1: were fired soon after because they were caught using drugs

771
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 1: while working as drug abuse counselors. Well, he may not

772
00:39:54,560 --> 00:39:59,359
Speaker 1: be good at anything but manipulating people in reality. Yeah, Now,

773
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 1: Joe is one who fired them, and he made a

774
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:03,840
Speaker 1: statement to the press saying their behavior was unacceptable, and

775
00:40:03,880 --> 00:40:06,759
Speaker 1: it seems like the incident had an impact on him.

776
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,319
Speaker 1: Not long after that, in nineteen seventy one, the couple

777
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:12,640
Speaker 1: decided to open a therapeutic community of their own. Joe

778
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 1: reached out to Dr Davidson, who he had worked with briefly,

779
00:40:15,560 --> 00:40:17,319
Speaker 1: and because he was a smooth son of a bitch,

780
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 1: convinced the older man to be their business partner in

781
00:40:20,080 --> 00:40:23,919
Speaker 1: starting a new facility. Because Dr Davidson is a psychiatrist,

782
00:40:23,960 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 1: Andy has money, you know, you gotta love it, and

783
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: you've got a license probably too. Yeah, he's got some licenses.

784
00:40:30,680 --> 00:40:33,360
Speaker 1: There's a lot of reasons. It's a good call. Now, Miles,

785
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 1: you know what's an even better call than convincing a

786
00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:41,399
Speaker 1: psychiatrist to fund your child abuse company program? Uh? That

787
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 1: this seminar we're given on how to unload catalytic converters

788
00:40:44,400 --> 00:40:50,280
Speaker 1: on Craigslist using that's right. Uh, and pick up Miles

789
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 1: and I's new book, The Catalytic Converter Driven Life, which

790
00:40:53,520 --> 00:40:58,239
Speaker 1: is all about how stealing catalytic converters called welcome converts.

791
00:41:02,560 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 1: What a good cult this is gonna be. We're back.

792
00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 1: I'm just fondling a couple of cats and catalytic converters.

793
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 1: That is um. That's what we call it around here.

794
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 1: That's that's what we call it around here, in the

795
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:26,080
Speaker 1: in the in the verter biz um. So by nineteen

796
00:41:26,200 --> 00:41:28,239
Speaker 1: seventy one, which is when Joe decides to start his

797
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 1: own facility, Sin and On was a full on cult,

798
00:41:31,200 --> 00:41:33,479
Speaker 1: but public awareness of that fact was not high. People

799
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,960
Speaker 1: were aware that drug abuse rehabilitation centners could save addicts,

800
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 1: and such facilities had exploded in popularity. Now at the time,

801
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:44,480
Speaker 1: new York, Connecticut, and Massachusetts all had very stringent laws

802
00:41:44,520 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: about what kind of professional qualifications you had to have

803
00:41:47,160 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 1: to work in such a place. Right those states have

804
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:52,839
Speaker 1: like you consider it basically a hospital. If you're trying,

805
00:41:52,840 --> 00:41:54,880
Speaker 1: if you're saying, I want to open a residential treatment

806
00:41:54,920 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 1: facility for addicts, you have to like have medical, serious

807
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:01,240
Speaker 1: medical credentials in order to what if I just really

808
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 1: want to do it, then you moved to Maine. You

809
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 1: do with Shoe Joe Richie and Sarah and Sherry do,

810
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:10,960
Speaker 1: which is you move to Maine because Maine does not

811
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:15,239
Speaker 1: give a funk about anything. Now. At the beginning, the

812
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 1: program was owned by Dr Davidson and another man, David Goldberg,

813
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 1: who actually had the money necessary to start the business.

814
00:42:22,400 --> 00:42:25,320
Speaker 1: The Richie's used their money to lease a former summer

815
00:42:25,360 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 1: camp in Naples, Maine, which they turned into their facility.

816
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,600
Speaker 1: From the beginning, Dr Davidson's role in all of this

817
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 1: was to be a doctor, right, not to actually do medicine,

818
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 1: but to be a doctor who was professionally associated with

819
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,840
Speaker 1: the organization. Could put his name on advertising material and

820
00:42:41,880 --> 00:42:43,839
Speaker 1: they can use it to claim that their facility has

821
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 1: a basis in clinical therapy. And since Dr Davidson was

822
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 1: the associate director of the Drug Clinic at Boston City Hospital,

823
00:42:50,000 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 1: he had a lot of professional weight to throw around.

824
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:55,800
Speaker 1: But again, he's never there. He's not actually doing anything.

825
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:01,360
Speaker 1: It's he's giving money. He's like funding this, but like, yeah,

826
00:43:01,480 --> 00:43:03,720
Speaker 1: So from this start, it was agreed that Dr Davidson

827
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: would not work on site. He would stay in Massachusetts,

828
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:08,480
Speaker 1: working at a hospital and using his position as a

829
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 1: psychiatrist to refer patients to the new business he'd started,

830
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 1: which is not at all the conflict of oh my god, Okay,

831
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 1: they're sucking radh it's so good, so good. Yeah, you

832
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:22,520
Speaker 1: need you need some help, you know. Actually I know

833
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 1: this place. Actually, oh yeah, it's a it's out in Maine,

834
00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:30,799
Speaker 1: you know. Um yeah, it's run by this guy who

835
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:34,240
Speaker 1: has no qualifications other than being a guy. He really

836
00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:38,160
Speaker 1: wants to do it here. He's yeah, he's he's had

837
00:43:38,280 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 1: no expertise, though all had no expertise. So Richie and

838
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:45,640
Speaker 1: his wife were supervisors, working for free room and board

839
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 1: in a cut of the profits. But when one of

840
00:43:48,000 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 1: their other partners, a guy who invested with the doctor,

841
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,960
Speaker 1: was caught embezzling, Richie and his wife bought their way

842
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 1: into a full partnership by selling eight thousand dollars worth

843
00:43:56,120 --> 00:43:59,200
Speaker 1: of stocks that Sherry had inherited from her grandma. So

844
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 1: Richie but comes a partner because of money that his

845
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 1: wife has. Right um. Now, the early years of this

846
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:07,759
Speaker 1: business are hard. The Richies were very poor, and by

847
00:44:07,800 --> 00:44:11,080
Speaker 1: all accounts, Joe was obsessed with getting rich from the beginning.

848
00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,279
Speaker 1: The Alan School, as they came to call it, was

849
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 1: not about helping people. It was about making Joe Richie

850
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:19,719
Speaker 1: a fortune. Still, it does seem to have started as

851
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 1: I don't know, somewhat genuine. It doesn't seem to have

852
00:44:22,640 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 1: initially been horribly toxic, at least within the standards of

853
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: the industry. And I'm gonna quote from Duck in a

854
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,960
Speaker 1: Raincoat again. They lived on the top floor of the

855
00:44:30,000 --> 00:44:32,680
Speaker 1: rustic building in Naples with residents on the second floor.

856
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,879
Speaker 1: Everybody shared the ground level. They seldom had any private time,

857
00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 1: never went out to eat or to the movies. Every

858
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,760
Speaker 1: activity centered around the therapeutic community and making lots of money.

859
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 1: Sherry center husband would often lie awake in bed thinking

860
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:46,399
Speaker 1: aloud about how they were going to make their first

861
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,960
Speaker 1: hundred thousand dollars becoming rich was definitely an obsession that

862
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:52,840
Speaker 1: seemed to drive Joe recalled an early staff member at Alan,

863
00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: money was extremely important to him, and when when he

864
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 1: was earning ten thousand dollars a year and driving an old,

865
00:44:57,800 --> 00:45:00,920
Speaker 1: Oldsmobile and represented the power to be somebody important who

866
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:03,399
Speaker 1: would be accepted by everyone around him, and that meant

867
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 1: a lot. So from the beginning, his motivation here is

868
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 1: to get rich off this not necessarily to determine any

869
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 1: new method of actually helping people right right, And if

870
00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:15,640
Speaker 1: even if it wasn't toxic at first, it seems like

871
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: he probably felt some kind of momentum beginning with his

872
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,680
Speaker 1: ability to grift and manipulate. Yeah, and when I said,

873
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:24,600
Speaker 1: I don't know that it was toxic at first because

874
00:45:24,600 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 1: we don't have a lot of detailers at the early

875
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 1: times of the school. Now, from the at the beginning,

876
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,480
Speaker 1: most of the money that they made was put right

877
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 1: back into the business. But it gradually started to make

878
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:37,040
Speaker 1: a major profit because they started drawing in and Joe

879
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 1: would actually go out and like recruit people to join

880
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:44,719
Speaker 1: the facility, particularly troubled teens from wealthy families. Um so

881
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:47,319
Speaker 1: they would like Joe and dr Davidson would go out

882
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,320
Speaker 1: and like talk to rich parents whose kids head like

883
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:52,920
Speaker 1: we're in legal trouble, had like serious problems with addiction.

884
00:45:53,000 --> 00:45:56,560
Speaker 1: Like because Davidson is a psychiatrist, he knows which rich

885
00:45:56,640 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 1: parents have are paying able to pay for serious for

886
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,120
Speaker 1: their kids. And Joe will go out and like, because

887
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 1: Joe's good at convincing people of things, will convince them

888
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,399
Speaker 1: to send their kid over to a laan and pay

889
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 1: a month for treatment. In nineteen seventies money, you know,

890
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 1: that's a lot of um. So, the Naples Facility relocated

891
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:19,319
Speaker 1: to the former Potter Academy, a landmark in the town

892
00:46:19,320 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 1: of Sebago, and another secondary style was the site was

893
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 1: established in Waterford, Maine. So they expand very quickly because

894
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 1: going after rich kids is good business. Throughout the mid

895
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:31,680
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies, Joe Richie expanded his methods from you know,

896
00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: he started off just kind of ripping off the day

897
00:46:33,560 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 1: top school and sent and on um to to building

898
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:39,680
Speaker 1: something new. And this happens gradually. We don't know the

899
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:42,200
Speaker 1: exact time frame in which this occurs, but it happens,

900
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:46,359
Speaker 1: you know, in the early years of the facility. UM So,

901
00:46:46,440 --> 00:46:48,960
Speaker 1: initially all the therapy. You have these group talk sessions

902
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 1: based off the game. You have various forms of labor.

903
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 1: People are asked to, like do physical labor outdoors as

904
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:56,760
Speaker 1: part of like they're they're kind of like a punishment

905
00:46:56,800 --> 00:47:00,560
Speaker 1: in a lot of cases. Um and Richie designed Allan's

906
00:47:00,600 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 1: culture around a series of work crews. Each member started

907
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:06,720
Speaker 1: as a worker and was assigned a job in the kitchen,

908
00:47:06,840 --> 00:47:10,280
Speaker 1: the business office, the communications office, or on the grounds

909
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 1: based on what was considered to be their weakest area.

910
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 1: So you get a job doing grunt level labor and

911
00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:18,880
Speaker 1: what everything you're worse at. Uh. In a nineteen seventy

912
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:22,239
Speaker 1: nine article for Corrections magazine, Dr Davidson claimed this was

913
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:25,239
Speaker 1: quote to teach them to function under adversity and learn

914
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 1: to accept failure. Now, from worker, which everyone starts as

915
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,680
Speaker 1: a worker, you move up to ramrod or foreman, which

916
00:47:32,719 --> 00:47:34,959
Speaker 1: is like, you know, in charge of a small group

917
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:37,560
Speaker 1: of workers. After that you move up to department head

918
00:47:37,600 --> 00:47:40,960
Speaker 1: and then up to coordinator. Joe felt that structure and

919
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,520
Speaker 1: communal living were both necessary in order to treat addicts,

920
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:46,720
Speaker 1: but while he was experimenting with new ways to counsel

921
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:50,480
Speaker 1: drug addiction, he was also experimenting with insurance fraud. So

922
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:53,920
Speaker 1: in January of nineteen seventy four, a fire destroyed his

923
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:57,480
Speaker 1: academy at Sobago. Thankfully no one was there at the time.

924
00:47:57,680 --> 00:48:01,280
Speaker 1: Davidson and Richie were in Chicago recruiting residence. The building's

925
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:03,920
Speaker 1: owner told the press that he didn't have much insurance,

926
00:48:04,080 --> 00:48:06,640
Speaker 1: but Richie bragged that the Allan School itself was quote

927
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 1: adequately insured due to the extensive remodeling his residence had

928
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:12,520
Speaker 1: done to the building. Now, there was no evidence that

929
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 1: his residence had remodeled anything, because the building had burned down,

930
00:48:16,000 --> 00:48:18,240
Speaker 1: but he was able to successfully argue that this increased

931
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 1: the insurance value of the property. Uh, and he makes

932
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 1: a lot of money off of the insurance building that

933
00:48:23,800 --> 00:48:26,640
Speaker 1: gets conveniently burned down. Yeah, don't worry about that. Don't

934
00:48:26,640 --> 00:48:28,600
Speaker 1: worry about the no insurance, you know, because I'm looking

935
00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:32,240
Speaker 1: at about probably four or five six hundred thousand dollars

936
00:48:32,280 --> 00:48:33,880
Speaker 1: or the remodel work that I didn't sure anyway, So

937
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 1: it's all. But it's all the insurance coverage. It's really

938
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 1: it's fine, no problem. So Sherry would later claim that

939
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 1: the fire was a turning point for Richie in the

940
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 1: Allan School they purchased a new permanent location in Poland Spring, Maine,

941
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,520
Speaker 1: with seven large buildings that would each act as separate

942
00:48:48,520 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 1: communities within the increasingly complex society Joe Richie was building. Now,

943
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:54,840
Speaker 1: at this point, I haven't given a lot of detail

944
00:48:54,880 --> 00:48:57,040
Speaker 1: about what happened at a LAN because we don't really

945
00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 1: know about the early seventies all that much. It seems

946
00:49:00,000 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 1: are to say that early on there was little to

947
00:49:02,200 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 1: differentiate a LAN from other programs based off of Cynanon

948
00:49:05,400 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 1: and day Top. They practiced the game, which tended to

949
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 1: be regularly scheduled therapy sessions. Uh and yeah, the idea like,

950
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:16,520
Speaker 1: so it seems like they're kind of doing the same

951
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 1: thing seventy three. At some point, though, it starts to change,

952
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:22,959
Speaker 1: and it changes in part because the LAN is very centralized.

953
00:49:23,000 --> 00:49:26,240
Speaker 1: From the beginning, there's the strict hierarchy, these different jobs

954
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 1: everybody has, and you move up or down if your

955
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:32,360
Speaker 1: behavior is bad. That seems to be kind of everything

956
00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,319
Speaker 1: else is spawned from this idea. So one of the

957
00:49:35,360 --> 00:49:38,040
Speaker 1: first things that Joe develops that's different from what other

958
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: facilities has done is he takes the game and he changes.

959
00:49:41,600 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 1: Isn't this something different? So the game two or three

960
00:49:44,160 --> 00:49:47,359
Speaker 1: times a week. In these other communities, everyone sits down

961
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:50,359
Speaker 1: to play the game, right, um, and that's the way

962
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,920
Speaker 1: the game works. Joe replaces it with something called a

963
00:49:53,040 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 1: general meeting. Um, And rather than being a regular scheduled

964
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,760
Speaker 1: part of the week, a general meeting was unpredictable. Instead

965
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:02,080
Speaker 1: of it being a thing everyone does together, it's often

966
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:04,600
Speaker 1: an unpleasant thing that everyone does it together. A general

967
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 1: meaning is something that's done to you. If your behavior

968
00:50:07,840 --> 00:50:10,520
Speaker 1: is bad, Joe or one of the other supervisors will

969
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:15,000
Speaker 1: call the general fucking meeting against you. And it's usually

970
00:50:15,040 --> 00:50:18,120
Speaker 1: done because, like Joe or a supervisor decides, this person

971
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 1: has done something bad. So in the game, every individual

972
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 1: pretty much is going to get called out for some

973
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:26,120
Speaker 1: sort of bad behavior. Right. You go around the circle

974
00:50:26,160 --> 00:50:30,480
Speaker 1: and everybody spends some time getting you know, ship talked basically, Right,

975
00:50:31,000 --> 00:50:33,840
Speaker 1: A general meeting isn't like that. Only one person is

976
00:50:33,840 --> 00:50:37,680
Speaker 1: getting yelled at and they're getting yelled at by everybody. Wow,

977
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:41,319
Speaker 1: So it's just like all right, feeding frenzy, here we

978
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 1: go just for this person. Yeah. Um. The frame the

979
00:50:45,239 --> 00:50:47,960
Speaker 1: term that we used for this was get your feelings off, right,

980
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:50,160
Speaker 1: So everyone's called It's like get your feelings off on him,

981
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:52,239
Speaker 1: get your like how is he hurt you? Basically, how

982
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:54,440
Speaker 1: is his behavior his he fucked up at this thing?

983
00:50:54,520 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 1: Like how did it affect you negatively? Um, And obviously

984
00:50:57,560 --> 00:51:00,279
Speaker 1: you can't not say something. I found one record of

985
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:03,759
Speaker 1: audio that is purported to have been recorded secretly during

986
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:06,160
Speaker 1: the late nineteen nineties of a general meeting at a

987
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:09,600
Speaker 1: lawn school, and the law graduates have said some people

988
00:51:10,160 --> 00:51:12,399
Speaker 1: argue that maybe this was staged, but either way, they say,

989
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 1: this is accurate to how it sounds. So here is

990
00:51:15,960 --> 00:51:50,680
Speaker 1: a general meeting at the law school. Back expects. So

991
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 1: the game, it's kind of debatable as to how therapeutically useful.

992
00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 1: It was a lot of criticisms of the game, this

993
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:01,360
Speaker 1: is just abuse. Like, I mean, the game was pretty

994
00:52:01,360 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 1: abusive in a lot of cases, but like this is

995
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:07,760
Speaker 1: just pure abuse. Like great screaming. Yeah, you can argue

996
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:09,920
Speaker 1: even though there's abusive elements to the game, going around

997
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 1: in a circle everybody, like there's elements of that that

998
00:52:12,239 --> 00:52:15,760
Speaker 1: could be helpful. This is just this is just abuse, Yeah,

999
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:19,880
Speaker 1: just as screaming meat grinder and like also that that

1000
00:52:20,000 --> 00:52:24,800
Speaker 1: what the fun. The person's inhalations too, were like so labor.

1001
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:28,359
Speaker 1: And this point that former students will make is that

1002
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,160
Speaker 1: you learn how to yell in a specific way unique

1003
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 1: to the Alan school. Because of the way in which

1004
00:52:33,760 --> 00:52:36,920
Speaker 1: you are trained to yell at people and abuse people,

1005
00:52:36,960 --> 00:52:39,960
Speaker 1: there's like a specific cadence, specific kinds of terms that

1006
00:52:40,080 --> 00:52:43,959
Speaker 1: you use. Um, you know, exhaust on a Harley Davidson man.

1007
00:52:44,360 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 1: You know, so you can tell Alan scream Yeah, that's yeah,

1008
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:53,120
Speaker 1: that's what what former I don't makes will say. So.

1009
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 1: One of the difficulties in preparing this episode is that

1010
00:52:56,040 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: the system of abuse that Joe Richie crafted for Alan

1011
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:01,839
Speaker 1: was extremely complicated in a way. What he built over

1012
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:04,239
Speaker 1: the first few years was like an engine designed to

1013
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:07,520
Speaker 1: be self perpetuating and maintaining. We don't have a good

1014
00:53:07,600 --> 00:53:10,320
Speaker 1: data on the order in which it all came together, um,

1015
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,360
Speaker 1: but we do have bits and pieces of that story.

1016
00:53:12,400 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 1: One of these comes from the nineteen seventy one interview

1017
00:53:14,600 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 1: with Dr Davidson from News and World Report, in which

1018
00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 1: he claimed, quote, therapeutic communities largely are run by X

1019
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:25,320
Speaker 1: addicts who have become extremely sanctimonious. Like all converted heathens.

1020
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:27,799
Speaker 1: They shave their patients heads, make them wear diapers, hang

1021
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 1: degrading signs on them, things like that. In our therapeutic community,

1022
00:53:31,160 --> 00:53:33,040
Speaker 1: we do not do this. Our approach is to build

1023
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:36,319
Speaker 1: self esteem and regard for others. Now, this is a

1024
00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: lie um at least it runs counter to what we

1025
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:41,800
Speaker 1: know Alan was doing in this same period of time.

1026
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 1: But also Dr Davidson was never there, so maybe he

1027
00:53:44,640 --> 00:53:48,040
Speaker 1: was just didn't know um. That same year, Joe Richie

1028
00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:50,719
Speaker 1: did an interview with a local TV news station where

1029
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 1: he claimed that the goal of a Lawan was to

1030
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:56,640
Speaker 1: instill self reliance, self respect, and a capacity for love. Quote.

1031
00:53:56,880 --> 00:53:59,360
Speaker 1: We tailored the program to fit the individual, not the

1032
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:02,759
Speaker 1: individual to fit the program. This was also not in

1033
00:54:02,840 --> 00:54:04,719
Speaker 1: line with what we know was going on at a LAN,

1034
00:54:05,560 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 1: but it was consistent with Joe Richie's desire to market

1035
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 1: his school to the parents of rich kids. In the

1036
00:54:10,320 --> 00:54:12,239
Speaker 1: early years, he did a lot of direct sales to

1037
00:54:12,280 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 1: these parents, and he would even offer to fly his

1038
00:54:14,160 --> 00:54:16,799
Speaker 1: private plane out to them to pick kids up. He

1039
00:54:16,880 --> 00:54:20,280
Speaker 1: called a lawn the Rolls Royce of adolescent treatment centers.

1040
00:54:21,080 --> 00:54:23,719
Speaker 1: So again, I can't tell you how this all came

1041
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:26,000
Speaker 1: together exactly, but I can tell you that by nineteen

1042
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:29,719
Speaker 1: seventy nine, when General when Corrections magazine did a profile

1043
00:54:29,800 --> 00:54:32,360
Speaker 1: on the Allan School. Uh it had already developed a

1044
00:54:32,400 --> 00:54:37,280
Speaker 1: number of unsettling characteristics, including an internal secret police force quote.

1045
00:54:37,719 --> 00:54:40,360
Speaker 1: There are no clinical offices at a LAN, No fifty minutes,

1046
00:54:40,360 --> 00:54:42,799
Speaker 1: see you next week. Couch sessions six days and nights

1047
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:45,120
Speaker 1: a week. Each LAN residence is a hotbed of raw,

1048
00:54:45,239 --> 00:54:49,680
Speaker 1: supercharged emotion. When the house is functioning, working at therapy,

1049
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:52,960
Speaker 1: the expediters are at work keeping a written record of

1050
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:55,400
Speaker 1: negative behavior. They have a lot of status like a

1051
00:54:55,480 --> 00:54:58,600
Speaker 1: secret police force. As one resident, they take attendance all

1052
00:54:58,600 --> 00:55:00,959
Speaker 1: the time and book incidents like if you Talk Back

1053
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 1: or Fight. Each book is a strange collection of names

1054
00:55:04,520 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 1: or narratives, attention seekers, googers, manipulators, nonrelators. At eleven ten today,

1055
00:55:09,640 --> 00:55:13,200
Speaker 1: Diane was called out for obnoxious behavior. Incidents are collected,

1056
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:17,280
Speaker 1: reviewed and dealt with appropriately, and appropriately usually means severely.

1057
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 1: You're not dealing with your feelings at all, screams a

1058
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 1: dominutive girl to a massive boy in a lawn. Seven

1059
00:55:22,920 --> 00:55:25,279
Speaker 1: he has talked back to a coordinator. Why don't you

1060
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 1: grow some guts and brains instead instead of just balls?

1061
00:55:28,200 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 1: You blockhead and just as quickly as it began, the

1062
00:55:30,920 --> 00:55:34,080
Speaker 1: confrontation is over. Both peacefully shuffle off to work again.

1063
00:55:34,719 --> 00:55:37,319
Speaker 1: So you have this, You have these people keeping track

1064
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:39,600
Speaker 1: of everyone, writing down in a notebook every bad thing

1065
00:55:39,640 --> 00:55:41,880
Speaker 1: they do, so that it can be there can be

1066
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 1: a meeting at some point in the day where you

1067
00:55:43,640 --> 00:55:45,840
Speaker 1: yell at this person over it, like where every single

1068
00:55:45,840 --> 00:55:49,720
Speaker 1: piece of behavior you do is being monitored at all times.

1069
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:52,399
Speaker 1: And this is true of everybody, including the people who

1070
00:55:52,440 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 1: are giving out punishment. They're also always being monitors. So anyone,

1071
00:55:56,719 --> 00:56:00,239
Speaker 1: if you have status, you can lose it for bad behavior. Um.

1072
00:56:00,239 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 1: And if you don't have status, you can report people

1073
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 1: who might be above you and get them in trouble.

1074
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:08,160
Speaker 1: Like it's this whole it's an assent of abuse, right

1075
00:56:08,239 --> 00:56:10,440
Speaker 1: and it's not necessarily Like when you said internal police rs,

1076
00:56:10,480 --> 00:56:12,960
Speaker 1: I felt like they're ordaining people to be these snitches.

1077
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 1: But it's just the the ecosystem operates and such that

1078
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:19,640
Speaker 1: it self police is to be able to gotcha each

1079
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 1: other at the general's that's part of it. There is this.

1080
00:56:22,880 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 1: This is a position. Expediter is a job. There's just

1081
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:29,399
Speaker 1: always kids with notebooks taking down what everyone does. Um.

1082
00:56:29,480 --> 00:56:32,600
Speaker 1: But can you come for an expeditor. Yeah, what you have,

1083
00:56:32,760 --> 00:56:35,319
Speaker 1: I mean you would have meetings throughat like once a day.

1084
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:37,239
Speaker 1: You're going to be like called into a room with

1085
00:56:37,320 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 1: kids above you and to talk about your bad behavior.

1086
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:42,600
Speaker 1: And you're also generally asked if you saw anyone else

1087
00:56:42,640 --> 00:56:45,480
Speaker 1: doing anything. And you also have these slips of paper

1088
00:56:45,760 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 1: that you can write down a bad behavior you saw

1089
00:56:48,760 --> 00:56:51,200
Speaker 1: from someone else and put it in a little like

1090
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:54,840
Speaker 1: basically like a notebox, and it those get read and

1091
00:56:54,880 --> 00:56:59,760
Speaker 1: people get punished for that snitch suggestion box. Yes, yeah, okay,

1092
00:57:00,239 --> 00:57:02,319
Speaker 1: so all of this stuff. Like again, the whole goal

1093
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:05,839
Speaker 1: here is to create is to make the kids lock

1094
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:09,279
Speaker 1: each other down so much that no one can misbehave

1095
00:57:09,400 --> 00:57:11,759
Speaker 1: that the program runs just based on all of these

1096
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 1: kids trying to either get back at each other or

1097
00:57:14,640 --> 00:57:17,800
Speaker 1: avoid punishment themselves. And any way to do that is

1098
00:57:17,840 --> 00:57:20,680
Speaker 1: to punish other people like live in some like panopticon

1099
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:23,400
Speaker 1: where they all feel like they're also they can never

1100
00:57:23,520 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 1: hide either. Yes, that's a huge part of it now.

1101
00:57:27,240 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 1: In cent and on, people who broke major rules were

1102
00:57:29,680 --> 00:57:32,720
Speaker 1: given haircuts, which was initially just like a dressing down,

1103
00:57:32,760 --> 00:57:35,080
Speaker 1: but was turned into literal haircuts, like eventually they would

1104
00:57:35,120 --> 00:57:37,640
Speaker 1: start shaving your head for bad behavior at a lan.

1105
00:57:37,960 --> 00:57:41,200
Speaker 1: The haircuts were metaphorical, but somehow much more abusive than

1106
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:45,800
Speaker 1: forcibly shaving someone bald. Haircuts were basically lesser general meetings.

1107
00:57:46,000 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 1: They could take the tear the form of a blast

1108
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:50,680
Speaker 1: where one person would scream at you for bad behavior,

1109
00:57:50,920 --> 00:57:53,440
Speaker 1: or a round robin where a dozen people would do it,

1110
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 1: or a twenty one gun salute, which involved two dozen

1111
00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 1: people berating you. These lesser reprimands were called for bike

1112
00:58:00,040 --> 00:58:02,680
Speaker 1: kids against other kids, rather than being doled out by

1113
00:58:02,720 --> 00:58:06,880
Speaker 1: any kind of administrator. In nineteen seventy nine, when Corrections

1114
00:58:06,920 --> 00:58:10,240
Speaker 1: magazine covered a lawn, so called experts touted this is

1115
00:58:10,280 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 1: one of the things that made a law revolutionary. That

1116
00:58:13,040 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 1: article quoted the headmaster of a Montessori school who claimed

1117
00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:19,720
Speaker 1: it works. The kids disciplined themselves with haircuts. The result

1118
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 1: is that there are no discipline problems in school. It

1119
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:26,440
Speaker 1: would be more accurate to say that a lawn successfully

1120
00:58:26,440 --> 00:58:31,000
Speaker 1: transformed most discipline problems into institutionally supported abuse, because the

1121
00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:32,960
Speaker 1: only way to have any kind of control over your

1122
00:58:32,960 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 1: life at a lawn was to play along and raise

1123
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 1: through the ranks, at which point you would be able

1124
00:58:37,200 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 1: to give haircuts, or eventually called general meetings. The system

1125
00:58:40,920 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 1: was built to encourage kids to join it in order

1126
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:46,080
Speaker 1: to dish out the abuse they'd had to suffer for months,

1127
00:58:46,160 --> 00:58:50,960
Speaker 1: and to suffer less abuse themselves. Alan punishments included signs

1128
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:54,840
Speaker 1: which listed the perpetrators supposed sins, and again, Davidson has said,

1129
00:58:54,840 --> 00:58:56,080
Speaker 1: this is one of the things that makes us different

1130
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 1: from other We don't hang signs from people's next. They

1131
00:58:58,200 --> 00:59:01,800
Speaker 1: totally did h Kids are forced to make signs themselves,

1132
00:59:01,840 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 1: but the wording was created by the student students who

1133
00:59:04,960 --> 00:59:07,800
Speaker 1: are punishing them, and by employees of the school. I

1134
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:11,640
Speaker 1: found one example online and I'm gonna my ows. You

1135
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,160
Speaker 1: want to read the sign that young woman's care is

1136
00:59:14,280 --> 00:59:18,160
Speaker 1: holding around her neck? Okay, this is my name is

1137
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:22,560
Speaker 1: Phyllis Cohen. I behave like an emotional cripple. I consistently

1138
00:59:22,680 --> 00:59:25,960
Speaker 1: seek people's attention and try to get them to prove

1139
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:29,800
Speaker 1: they care about me. I play games and continually usurp

1140
00:59:29,880 --> 00:59:33,760
Speaker 1: people's emotions in order to make myself feel special. Please

1141
00:59:33,800 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 1: confront me, because if I don't change, this attitude will

1142
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 1: always I don't know, it says, we'll always something the

1143
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:47,720
Speaker 1: scared and lonely. Yeah, what the fuck? That's pretty bad ship.

1144
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:50,600
Speaker 1: This is so this is someone they're like, okay, this, okay,

1145
00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:54,240
Speaker 1: we figured you out. You're an emotional cripple. That what

1146
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:57,920
Speaker 1: the that's not you have around your neck? Yeah? Then

1147
00:59:57,960 --> 00:59:59,880
Speaker 1: this sign is massive. It's gonna be what two and

1148
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:06,200
Speaker 1: have three feet. It's like a poster board. It's it's

1149
01:00:06,240 --> 01:00:09,240
Speaker 1: bigger than her almost. But also like, like why is

1150
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:13,479
Speaker 1: it like colorful to like there's like a it. Well,

1151
01:00:13,520 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 1: she had to make it. Somebody get wrote that down

1152
01:00:16,760 --> 01:00:19,000
Speaker 1: for her. I don't think it's handering. It think those

1153
01:00:19,000 --> 01:00:23,760
Speaker 1: are like cut stickers or something, cutout stickers. Yeah, but

1154
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:27,840
Speaker 1: it's like rainbow. Yeah, unnecessary flair for such an abusive

1155
01:00:27,880 --> 01:00:30,400
Speaker 1: sign though. Also yeah, they had a lot of flair.

1156
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:32,120
Speaker 1: They had the whole school. One of the things you

1157
01:00:32,120 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 1: would have to do constantly is like right posters and

1158
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:36,720
Speaker 1: stuff that they would put in everywhere. So there's always

1159
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:40,680
Speaker 1: these posters with like batshit motivational slogans over all the walls.

1160
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:46,440
Speaker 1: It's just the worst cripple. It's like a rainbow and

1161
01:00:46,520 --> 01:00:50,440
Speaker 1: like a pot of gold. Yeah. I kind of want

1162
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 1: one of those actually from my own office. So I'm

1163
01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:56,240
Speaker 1: gonna quote from that Corrections magazine. Right up again, Miles,

1164
01:00:57,480 --> 01:00:59,680
Speaker 1: where's your sign? Get that sign on all right, will

1165
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:02,320
Speaker 1: break it over your head, barks Mark the staff member

1166
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 1: running the general meeting at a lawn five or at

1167
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 1: a lawn four in Parsonville and parson Field, a lawn

1168
01:01:07,600 --> 01:01:09,560
Speaker 1: four is the residence for the toughest of the tough.

1169
01:01:09,680 --> 01:01:12,200
Speaker 1: It is the only locked facility. For over a week now,

1170
01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:14,800
Speaker 1: a lawn four has been in a tight house, all

1171
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:18,720
Speaker 1: privileges suspended because of a poorhouse attitude. Mark Zero's in

1172
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 1: on a few offenders as sixty pairs of cold eyes

1173
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:24,040
Speaker 1: look on in the cafeteria. Paulson, get up here, he

1174
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:26,120
Speaker 1: screams in a thirteen year old with a tossal of

1175
01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:28,560
Speaker 1: brown hair. You know why you're up here, don't you? Well,

1176
01:01:28,600 --> 01:01:31,040
Speaker 1: after this morning, you're never gonna not do your homework again.

1177
01:01:31,240 --> 01:01:33,480
Speaker 1: You're gonna want to be dead. Where is your dunce cap?

1178
01:01:33,480 --> 01:01:35,480
Speaker 1: Get him a dunce cap that will touch the ceiling,

1179
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:37,680
Speaker 1: he says. And again. They would like give these people

1180
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:40,320
Speaker 1: like dunce caps as big as their bodies and stuff like.

1181
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:43,200
Speaker 1: They would make people wear costumes. They made one kid,

1182
01:01:43,880 --> 01:01:46,680
Speaker 1: uh dress up as Jesus. I think it was like

1183
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:48,880
Speaker 1: a horse. They like chained his feet to a ball

1184
01:01:48,920 --> 01:01:51,280
Speaker 1: and like dressed him up as an animal like it

1185
01:01:51,320 --> 01:01:56,240
Speaker 1: would get fucked up. Um damn. Yeah that's and and

1186
01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:59,160
Speaker 1: you're saying this is in Corrections magazine, where they're like, yeah,

1187
01:01:59,240 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 1: look check out the work they're doing here. It's actually

1188
01:02:02,320 --> 01:02:07,600
Speaker 1: pretty critical, to be honest, like the Spotlight wasn't like

1189
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:09,280
Speaker 1: you know, like this is just a magazine for like

1190
01:02:09,360 --> 01:02:13,480
Speaker 1: critical is it should have been maybe, but it was nine.

1191
01:02:13,480 --> 01:02:15,280
Speaker 1: They didn't know. I don't know, we'll see they could

1192
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:17,640
Speaker 1: have been more critical, but it's like not positive, like

1193
01:02:17,720 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 1: it doesn't pay to Maybe the fascists who read Corrections

1194
01:02:21,720 --> 01:02:24,760
Speaker 1: Magazine were like this sounds like that, but like I

1195
01:02:24,800 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 1: thought it was a pretty dark portrayal of this facility.

1196
01:02:29,480 --> 01:02:32,080
Speaker 1: You just never know, like considering the odds are like wow,

1197
01:02:32,120 --> 01:02:35,720
Speaker 1: did you see that? Right up? At one point, Um.

1198
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:39,240
Speaker 1: The article discusses encounter sessions, and these are a result

1199
01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:42,280
Speaker 1: of one of the weird programs Joe Richie developed for

1200
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:45,240
Speaker 1: his school over the years, and encounter sessions students are

1201
01:02:45,320 --> 01:02:48,200
Speaker 1: so students are required every day to write little fill

1202
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:50,880
Speaker 1: out slips of paper admitting their guilt, which is like

1203
01:02:50,920 --> 01:02:53,440
Speaker 1: every day you have to write what rules you violated

1204
01:02:53,520 --> 01:02:55,920
Speaker 1: during the day that you didn't get caught for, and

1205
01:02:55,960 --> 01:02:58,440
Speaker 1: then you would have to come in and talk to

1206
01:02:58,560 --> 01:03:01,040
Speaker 1: a group of your fellow student and a staff member

1207
01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:03,640
Speaker 1: about the different things that you've done that you weren't

1208
01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:09,120
Speaker 1: supposed to dosional. Yeah, and when I'm talking about rule breaking, miles,

1209
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:14,320
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about like, well, it's horrifying. Actually, um,

1210
01:03:14,360 --> 01:03:17,400
Speaker 1: I'm gonna read you a brief, non comprehensive list of

1211
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:20,360
Speaker 1: the different guilts. And guilt is called you have guilt, right,

1212
01:03:20,400 --> 01:03:22,040
Speaker 1: Like that's the term they would use it, like have

1213
01:03:22,080 --> 01:03:26,080
Speaker 1: you've done something bad? Talking too loudly, talking too quietly,

1214
01:03:26,360 --> 01:03:30,120
Speaker 1: talking to someone without authorization, talking to a non strength

1215
01:03:30,200 --> 01:03:33,040
Speaker 1: while being non strength. So eventually one of the this

1216
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:36,360
Speaker 1: is one of the they keep adding like different sort

1217
01:03:36,400 --> 01:03:39,680
Speaker 1: of rule, like different sort of classifications, so it's sort

1218
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:42,720
Speaker 1: of like workers or ramrods. And eventually they add in

1219
01:03:42,800 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 1: strength or non strength, So all of the low ranking

1220
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:49,280
Speaker 1: students are non strength and all of the once you

1221
01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:51,880
Speaker 1: reach a certain point your strength and then there's high strength,

1222
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:54,560
Speaker 1: and so certain jobs only open up when you become

1223
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:57,480
Speaker 1: strength or high strength. When you're low strength, you can't

1224
01:03:57,520 --> 01:04:00,280
Speaker 1: talk to anyone else who's low strength. You can only

1225
01:04:00,320 --> 01:04:03,240
Speaker 1: talk too high strength people or listen to high strength people,

1226
01:04:03,280 --> 01:04:05,400
Speaker 1: So you can get in trouble for listening to someone

1227
01:04:05,440 --> 01:04:08,000
Speaker 1: who's also low rank. It's this weird. There's a lot

1228
01:04:08,000 --> 01:04:11,360
Speaker 1: of weird ship with the system. So in these rules,

1229
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:14,600
Speaker 1: like who's who's defining, like what's too quiet and what's

1230
01:04:14,600 --> 01:04:17,320
Speaker 1: too loud, and what's too much and what's too little?

1231
01:04:17,440 --> 01:04:19,480
Speaker 1: Like what what are is there like some kind of

1232
01:04:19,520 --> 01:04:25,600
Speaker 1: like ranking system. No no, no subjective yeah, uh, talking

1233
01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:29,120
Speaker 1: too much, not talking enough, talking about subjects that are

1234
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:32,360
Speaker 1: not a lawn related This is called being loose. Uh.

1235
01:04:32,440 --> 01:04:35,960
Speaker 1: Sex and this doesn't just mean talking about sex. This

1236
01:04:36,040 --> 01:04:38,360
Speaker 1: means looking at someone of the opposite gender. So they

1237
01:04:38,360 --> 01:04:40,640
Speaker 1: would make you write down and confess if you were

1238
01:04:40,640 --> 01:04:43,600
Speaker 1: attracted to anyone else in the school, and then if

1239
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:45,800
Speaker 1: you did that, they would bring it up. They would

1240
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:49,880
Speaker 1: call everyone together and say, hey, so and so thinks

1241
01:04:49,880 --> 01:04:53,120
Speaker 1: Susie is hot, Like like, Susie, you don't think he's hot, right,

1242
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:55,040
Speaker 1: you think he's fucking hideous? Yeah, And like they would

1243
01:04:55,080 --> 01:04:57,520
Speaker 1: do that in front of the whole school, Like you

1244
01:04:57,560 --> 01:04:59,240
Speaker 1: have to admit that you have a crush on someone.

1245
01:04:59,280 --> 01:05:01,040
Speaker 1: So they can make fun of you about it in

1246
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:04,280
Speaker 1: front of everyone else, quite literally, like the nightmare you

1247
01:05:04,400 --> 01:05:08,760
Speaker 1: have as a junior high kid. Yeah, it's like exactly

1248
01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:13,320
Speaker 1: nightmare is the whole school comes around and goes and

1249
01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:15,720
Speaker 1: they and they make the person who's a crush on

1250
01:05:15,760 --> 01:05:19,320
Speaker 1: you tell you that they think you're disgusting. Oh yeah,

1251
01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:24,200
Speaker 1: it's really bad. Right. Um, you could get in trouble

1252
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:26,160
Speaker 1: for looking at someone of the opposite sex, But you

1253
01:05:26,160 --> 01:05:28,480
Speaker 1: could also get in trouble for avoiding looking at someone

1254
01:05:28,520 --> 01:05:30,520
Speaker 1: of the opposite sex, because that clearly means you have

1255
01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:38,440
Speaker 1: a crush on them. Um, it's so good. Um, yeah,

1256
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:42,520
Speaker 1: you could get in trouble for basically anything. Yeah, it's

1257
01:05:43,440 --> 01:05:47,440
Speaker 1: looking outside. Yeah you can't be looking outside, but you

1258
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:49,600
Speaker 1: can't all. But also the next one is looking at

1259
01:05:49,640 --> 01:05:51,880
Speaker 1: the floor. Yeah, you have to be like constant state

1260
01:05:51,960 --> 01:05:55,480
Speaker 1: of observation. Yeah, constant state of observation, always looking at

1261
01:05:55,520 --> 01:06:01,560
Speaker 1: your fellow inmates. Robert, what does being sideways mean? Um? Okay,

1262
01:06:01,600 --> 01:06:06,720
Speaker 1: when you sile, that's what I was thinking. I think

1263
01:06:06,720 --> 01:06:10,120
Speaker 1: it just basically means like not following some sort of

1264
01:06:10,400 --> 01:06:12,920
Speaker 1: like not not being on the program. Right, Like the

1265
01:06:12,960 --> 01:06:15,840
Speaker 1: whole the only thing you're supposed to talk about with

1266
01:06:15,880 --> 01:06:19,680
Speaker 1: each other. Is the program is like either what a

1267
01:06:19,720 --> 01:06:23,080
Speaker 1: disaster your life would be without it, how it saved

1268
01:06:23,120 --> 01:06:25,360
Speaker 1: your life, or like how someone else needs to do

1269
01:06:25,400 --> 01:06:28,240
Speaker 1: a better job of following the program. Anything else is

1270
01:06:28,280 --> 01:06:30,520
Speaker 1: being loose right, and you're not You're not supposed to

1271
01:06:30,520 --> 01:06:35,000
Speaker 1: be doing that. Ship um every God. Yeah. The rest

1272
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:37,360
Speaker 1: of these are I think these are worse than the

1273
01:06:37,400 --> 01:06:39,400
Speaker 1: first couple of ones you read, to be honest, which

1274
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:43,080
Speaker 1: one is having negative body language, reacting to insults, slouching

1275
01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:47,600
Speaker 1: or yawning, looking at not falling asleep or sleeping for

1276
01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:51,280
Speaker 1: too long so you can't be a person. No, they

1277
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:53,439
Speaker 1: keep you sleep deprived and they don't feed you enough,

1278
01:06:53,560 --> 01:06:56,120
Speaker 1: because that's a great way to have a cold. Work

1279
01:06:56,640 --> 01:07:00,960
Speaker 1: says it just says drawing. You can't draw. I'd be

1280
01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:03,880
Speaker 1: done with the three books either I am? I am?

1281
01:07:04,120 --> 01:07:08,200
Speaker 1: I am? What? Or school? Yeah? How do you? Okay? Whatever?

1282
01:07:08,720 --> 01:07:12,160
Speaker 1: Go on? I mean, it's a about the kind of

1283
01:07:12,280 --> 01:07:14,080
Speaker 1: school you do. Eventually, if you get to a high

1284
01:07:14,160 --> 01:07:16,160
Speaker 1: enough rank, there's a library and you can even read

1285
01:07:16,200 --> 01:07:18,439
Speaker 1: books if you get to a high enough rank, which

1286
01:07:18,440 --> 01:07:21,800
Speaker 1: you get to by abusing your fellow students and maintaining

1287
01:07:21,840 --> 01:07:25,040
Speaker 1: this this order, So again, that's part of the like,

1288
01:07:25,560 --> 01:07:27,680
Speaker 1: after a couple of months of fighting back, you're so

1289
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:31,600
Speaker 1: fucking desperate to have a single like privilege that lets

1290
01:07:31,600 --> 01:07:34,120
Speaker 1: you feel like a person that you will destroy the

1291
01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:36,160
Speaker 1: people around you to get that right, right, And yeah,

1292
01:07:36,200 --> 01:07:39,560
Speaker 1: you just made it a gladiator ring. Yeah, exactly for

1293
01:07:40,040 --> 01:07:44,040
Speaker 1: just the slightest bit of stimulation that isn't total abused.

1294
01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:47,840
Speaker 1: It's cool and good, miles cool and good. Every day

1295
01:07:47,840 --> 01:07:51,120
Speaker 1: inmates would participate in in counter groups. These were smaller,

1296
01:07:51,200 --> 01:07:53,720
Speaker 1: more focused versions of the game, where three to four

1297
01:07:53,800 --> 01:07:56,040
Speaker 1: higher ranked inmates would sit down with a worker or

1298
01:07:56,160 --> 01:07:59,800
Speaker 1: Ramrod and discuss their flaws. In ninety nine, the author

1299
01:07:59,800 --> 01:08:03,000
Speaker 1: of the Corrections magazine article claims some sessions focused on

1300
01:08:03,040 --> 01:08:05,960
Speaker 1: building up the self esteem of inmates and having peers

1301
01:08:06,000 --> 01:08:09,800
Speaker 1: discussed their good qualities. This seems to have occurred at

1302
01:08:09,920 --> 01:08:12,560
Speaker 1: some periods, and I've even found former allowance students who

1303
01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:15,120
Speaker 1: will say that there were specific employees who were decent people.

1304
01:08:15,760 --> 01:08:19,960
Speaker 1: Um Most of the accounts I found do not report

1305
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:22,599
Speaker 1: that building up self esteem was as common a task

1306
01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:25,439
Speaker 1: for encounter groups as the opposite, which is breaking down

1307
01:08:25,479 --> 01:08:28,479
Speaker 1: people's self conception of themselves. This was evident even in

1308
01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:32,200
Speaker 1: nineteen quote. Encounters can run for ten minutes. They can

1309
01:08:32,240 --> 01:08:34,120
Speaker 1: also go on for half a day. There are other

1310
01:08:34,280 --> 01:08:36,760
Speaker 1: less frequent group sessions whose purposes to build up self

1311
01:08:36,840 --> 01:08:40,040
Speaker 1: esteem rather than tear it down. Tears off. Tears often

1312
01:08:40,120 --> 01:08:42,920
Speaker 1: flow in these sessions where residents talk about their good qualities.

1313
01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:46,639
Speaker 1: It is moving to watch tears flow and encounter sessions too.

1314
01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:49,360
Speaker 1: You want a knife, Bruce, you want to kill yourself,

1315
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:52,879
Speaker 1: asks Alice. Matter of factly, Bruce's lower lip is quivering.

1316
01:08:53,080 --> 01:08:55,160
Speaker 1: Someone get me a knife. There's a rattle of a

1317
01:08:55,240 --> 01:08:58,400
Speaker 1: drawer and someone hands Alice a silver blade. Here, Bruce,

1318
01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:02,840
Speaker 1: kill yourself. Bruce whimpers. He cannot shout as the others do. No,

1319
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:05,320
Speaker 1: I don't want to change. I don't know why. I

1320
01:09:05,360 --> 01:09:07,800
Speaker 1: just don't want to change his eyes redden, Alice sees,

1321
01:09:07,880 --> 01:09:10,200
Speaker 1: is the chance to toughen this newcomer. Let me rip

1322
01:09:10,240 --> 01:09:12,320
Speaker 1: your stomach out for a second. Okay, Bruce, you don't

1323
01:09:12,360 --> 01:09:14,280
Speaker 1: think anyone likes you, do you? That's because you don't

1324
01:09:14,280 --> 01:09:16,439
Speaker 1: think you're worth being liked. She turns to the group.

1325
01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:19,040
Speaker 1: How many people feel that Bruce has an insatiable desire

1326
01:09:19,080 --> 01:09:20,840
Speaker 1: to be loved but won't let that be because he

1327
01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:24,160
Speaker 1: hates himself. Six hands grow up. If you're crying now, Bruce,

1328
01:09:24,360 --> 01:09:26,240
Speaker 1: you should be. If you aren't crying, now Bruce, you

1329
01:09:26,280 --> 01:09:29,519
Speaker 1: should be. He is. It's just like what the fun

1330
01:09:30,120 --> 01:09:33,000
Speaker 1: mind game ship absolute torture, And again, Alice is just

1331
01:09:33,080 --> 01:09:37,080
Speaker 1: like another kid right like this to like be Yeah,

1332
01:09:37,360 --> 01:09:40,320
Speaker 1: physical abuse was just like, yeah, that's so weird. Like

1333
01:09:40,360 --> 01:09:43,679
Speaker 1: you're just sort of nurturing the same fucked up skills

1334
01:09:43,760 --> 01:09:48,120
Speaker 1: within everyone and it's just becoming this like a Petri

1335
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:51,520
Speaker 1: dish of dysfunction that you're just watching all the bacteria

1336
01:09:51,600 --> 01:09:56,280
Speaker 1: like replicate and grow and geez. I mean it past

1337
01:09:56,320 --> 01:09:58,680
Speaker 1: a certain point. All of the staff pretty much are

1338
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:01,080
Speaker 1: people who went to a law as kids because like

1339
01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:05,839
Speaker 1: they can't do anything else, you know. Um. Physical abuse

1340
01:10:05,920 --> 01:10:09,240
Speaker 1: was also extremely common in a Land. At its lowest levels,

1341
01:10:09,240 --> 01:10:12,719
Speaker 1: it involved spankings administered by other students via ping pong paddle.

1342
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:16,479
Speaker 1: Administrators and employees were not supposed to partake in corporal punishment,

1343
01:10:16,520 --> 01:10:18,759
Speaker 1: although whether or not they did is something that seems

1344
01:10:18,800 --> 01:10:21,000
Speaker 1: to have varied from person to person over time during

1345
01:10:21,000 --> 01:10:24,799
Speaker 1: the decades the school operated. Now, I was spanked in school,

1346
01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:27,800
Speaker 1: and when I say students were given spankings. Depending on

1347
01:10:27,800 --> 01:10:30,280
Speaker 1: your background, they may that may not sound too horrible.

1348
01:10:30,360 --> 01:10:34,200
Speaker 1: Right At a laan, spankings were administered the way therapy

1349
01:10:34,400 --> 01:10:38,040
Speaker 1: was in groups. Sometimes as many as a dozen students

1350
01:10:38,080 --> 01:10:41,080
Speaker 1: would spank a single person, taking turns until the child's

1351
01:10:41,080 --> 01:10:44,200
Speaker 1: buttocks was bruised and often bleeding. I found one account

1352
01:10:44,200 --> 01:10:47,240
Speaker 1: from an a law and alumnus, Gregory Coleman, who actually

1353
01:10:47,280 --> 01:10:49,759
Speaker 1: gave this account during the murder trial of another former

1354
01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:52,840
Speaker 1: law student. At the time he gave the statement, Coleman

1355
01:10:52,920 --> 01:10:56,200
Speaker 1: was in maximum security prison for criminal trespassing, which might

1356
01:10:56,240 --> 01:10:58,320
Speaker 1: be a hint as to how well the program really worked.

1357
01:10:58,320 --> 01:11:00,280
Speaker 1: But that's a story for another day. And you're saying

1358
01:11:00,280 --> 01:11:07,200
Speaker 1: he was testifying at the murder trial. Yeah. Now, Back

1359
01:11:07,240 --> 01:11:09,320
Speaker 1: in the seventies, Gregory had been sent to a lawn

1360
01:11:09,360 --> 01:11:11,439
Speaker 1: for stealing a TV. He was one of many students

1361
01:11:11,479 --> 01:11:14,839
Speaker 1: who participated in the mass paddling of a female student.

1362
01:11:15,400 --> 01:11:18,000
Speaker 1: Decades later, he could not remember what she had done

1363
01:11:18,040 --> 01:11:20,760
Speaker 1: to earn the punishment. Here is how his testimony on

1364
01:11:20,800 --> 01:11:23,840
Speaker 1: that was described in a federal court document. She was

1365
01:11:23,840 --> 01:11:26,719
Speaker 1: paddled so violently with open hands in a wooden mallet

1366
01:11:26,760 --> 01:11:29,360
Speaker 1: that she had to be taken to the hospital. Coleman

1367
01:11:29,439 --> 01:11:32,200
Speaker 1: nonchalantly testified that the assault was so horrific that she

1368
01:11:32,320 --> 01:11:35,439
Speaker 1: went into shock and lost the ability to retain her

1369
01:11:35,439 --> 01:11:40,400
Speaker 1: bowel movements. Pretty bad stuff. So fucking and then beginning

1370
01:11:40,400 --> 01:11:42,240
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, yeah, man, this dude was just

1371
01:11:42,320 --> 01:11:45,960
Speaker 1: a grifter insurance. And then I'm like, yeah, here we go.

1372
01:11:46,080 --> 01:11:48,720
Speaker 1: Now we're getting to the bastard part. As I turn

1373
01:11:48,800 --> 01:11:52,679
Speaker 1: away because I can't even focus him. Yeah. So yeah,

1374
01:11:52,800 --> 01:11:55,120
Speaker 1: to from it's like it's not enough of all the

1375
01:11:55,120 --> 01:12:01,479
Speaker 1: psychological ship and now we're talking about create eating you know,

1376
01:12:01,680 --> 01:12:06,600
Speaker 1: generations of kids who probably needed actual, you know, professional

1377
01:12:06,680 --> 01:12:09,760
Speaker 1: help that was more centered around their humanity rather than

1378
01:12:09,800 --> 01:12:13,799
Speaker 1: some dude getting off on creating like the Thunderdome of abuse.

1379
01:12:14,760 --> 01:12:21,240
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, it's a lot. So Miles, how are you.

1380
01:12:21,920 --> 01:12:27,840
Speaker 1: How are you feeling today after all this good? I'm sweating, sexy. Yeah,

1381
01:12:28,720 --> 01:12:31,839
Speaker 1: the just I'm just trying to focus on my catalytic converters.

1382
01:12:31,840 --> 01:12:35,920
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna lie right now. The only thing catalytic converter.

1383
01:12:36,400 --> 01:12:39,760
Speaker 1: Catalytic converters don't abuse kids. You know, they would never

1384
01:12:39,800 --> 01:12:43,760
Speaker 1: spank a child. All they do is get stolen by

1385
01:12:43,880 --> 01:12:47,439
Speaker 1: us in order to make profit and it's beautiful. I

1386
01:12:47,479 --> 01:12:50,439
Speaker 1: think that's beautiful. Miles. We saw him for fifteen roses

1387
01:12:50,479 --> 01:12:56,640
Speaker 1: on Craigslist. All right, well we're going to talk more

1388
01:12:56,640 --> 01:12:59,280
Speaker 1: about a law in school in part two, including its

1389
01:12:59,280 --> 01:13:03,680
Speaker 1: most notorious therapy, the Ring. But that's gonna have to

1390
01:13:03,720 --> 01:13:06,400
Speaker 1: wait till Thursday. Oh Miles, you are not going to

1391
01:13:06,520 --> 01:13:09,800
Speaker 1: have a good time. Yeah, it's real bad, buddy. I

1392
01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:13,320
Speaker 1: don't I take these fucking like w w E event

1393
01:13:13,520 --> 01:13:18,639
Speaker 1: names like you know, Harry Ring a general like like, Okay,

1394
01:13:18,720 --> 01:13:21,240
Speaker 1: well it's all right if it helps. It's a lot

1395
01:13:21,280 --> 01:13:25,960
Speaker 1: worse than the w w E. Okay, yeah, that's that's true.

1396
01:13:26,080 --> 01:13:31,080
Speaker 1: I guess that doesn't help me. Yeah, well that's the episode, Miles.

1397
01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:37,599
Speaker 1: You got any you know if you like? I feel

1398
01:13:37,600 --> 01:13:40,040
Speaker 1: like nicey nice stuff, right, I just get high and

1399
01:13:40,040 --> 01:13:43,160
Speaker 1: talk about trash reality TV like Fiance checkout for twenty

1400
01:13:43,200 --> 01:13:45,559
Speaker 1: day Fiance. Also, so if the Alexander somebody you have

1401
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:47,639
Speaker 1: here on the time, that's my co host. So that's

1402
01:13:47,640 --> 01:13:49,840
Speaker 1: where we do that and daily Side check out for

1403
01:13:49,960 --> 01:13:52,439
Speaker 1: twenty day check it out, check out for twenty day

1404
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:57,559
Speaker 1: and um check out Catalytic Converters by crawling up underneath

1405
01:13:57,600 --> 01:14:00,320
Speaker 1: a Toyota Prius with a set of bolt cuts, and

1406
01:14:00,320 --> 01:14:02,680
Speaker 1: just start cutting, just start cutting until you get the

1407
01:14:02,680 --> 01:14:05,439
Speaker 1: good ship. There you go, cutting for gold. That's how

1408
01:14:05,479 --> 01:14:07,040
Speaker 1: it works, baby, all right,