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Speaker 1: Long Shot is a production of McClatchy Studios and I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio. I'm alexandreav and this is a bonus feature

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Speaker 1: for Payback. As you've heard in this podcast, Jessica McDonald's

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Speaker 1: experience as a black woman playing sport has helped shape

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Speaker 1: her perspectives on soccer and on being black in America.

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Speaker 1: Those lessons first came from her grandmother, Abbey. As jess

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Speaker 1: began to dominate her youth sports leagues, my grandmother taught

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Speaker 1: us at an early age, you're the only black kid

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Speaker 1: out there, the only black kid at this tournament. And

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Speaker 1: she's like, you can't react the way people are expecting

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Speaker 1: you to react if something happened. And we were taught

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Speaker 1: the fact that racism was going to exist. It was

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Speaker 1: just something to expect because we were the only black

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Speaker 1: kids growing up playing in tournaments and things like that,

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Speaker 1: and so we had to carry ourselves in a different

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Speaker 1: manner than any other kid out there. Just further connected

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Speaker 1: with her identity. At the University of North Carolina as

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Speaker 1: an African American Studies major, it was my first time

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Speaker 1: I ever learning about true black history. I know, anymout

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Speaker 1: black history. The only thing you learn in school, growing up, MLK,

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Speaker 1: Malcolm x Rosa Parks, that's it. The topic of racism

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Speaker 1: was at the forefront of public conversation during my early

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Speaker 1: meetings with Jess, in the wake of nationwide protests over

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Speaker 1: the killing of George Floyd. What's here now? Firing paragraph

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Speaker 1: into the crowd? Of course I want the conversations to continue,

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Speaker 1: Like this is a little exhausting because there were times

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Speaker 1: where I was just getting asked the same questions and saying,

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Speaker 1: but what's your experience been like being black? Are you

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Speaker 1: getting me? Like? Where do I even start? Like, just

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Speaker 1: go and read your history. In recent years, Jess isn't

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Speaker 1: the only black woman to rise to the top of

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Speaker 1: a sport once dominated by white athletes. Serena, you are

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Speaker 1: a champion of all champions. Nao May, congratulations on your

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Speaker 1: first Grand Slam title. Serena Williams and Naomi Osaka upended

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Speaker 1: the tennis world the same way Simone Biles changed what's

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Speaker 1: possible in gymnastics. Family, Simon's got enough gold medal that

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Speaker 1: helps someone give this girl up Brown and at times,

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Speaker 1: all the faced vitriol and criticism that seems to stem

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Speaker 1: from something deeper than a box score. Interested in elite

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Speaker 1: black women's experiences and what are we doing to create

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Speaker 1: very healthy, inclusive environment for them situated in sport and

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Speaker 1: the bonus episode you'll hear from Dr Lesia Carter. She's

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Speaker 1: a sports psychologist and professor who focuses primarily on the

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Speaker 1: experience of Black women athletes at all levels of sport.

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Speaker 1: I look across this spectrum. What are we doing for

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Speaker 1: the everyday mom who wants to maintain physical activity or

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Speaker 1: is trying to get active, considering her built environment, her

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Speaker 1: family environment, all the different things. I spoke with Dr

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Speaker 1: Carter about the overlap of what she calls the is

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Speaker 1: ms racism, sexism, and classism, the superwoman scheme at that

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Speaker 1: often gets attached to black athletes, and how addressing the

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Speaker 1: way black women experienced sport is a key step in

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Speaker 1: dismantling generations old systems of inequality. This conversation has been

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Speaker 1: edited for length and clarity. I am Dr Leja Carter.

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Speaker 1: I'm an associate professor of feminist exercise and sports psychology

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Speaker 1: at Temple University as well as the executive director and

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Speaker 1: founder of Coalition for Food and Health Equity. I was

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Speaker 1: a collegiate athlete. I was on scholarship. I was a

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Speaker 1: poll bolter and a discus thrower, and I also wrestled

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Speaker 1: with my own competitive sport anxiety. I didn't have anxiety

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Speaker 1: outside of sport, but I really struggled with anxiety, particularly

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Speaker 1: when I would pull bolt when it came to competition time.

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Speaker 1: I had, you know, all of the somatic symptoms and

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Speaker 1: emotional symptoms of anxiety, but I didn't have it with discus.

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Speaker 1: And so my mentor at the time said, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's individuals that work with athletes among those particular areas,

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Speaker 1: and that was my first introduction to sports psychology. The

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Speaker 1: interest of black women athletes and what are we doing

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Speaker 1: to create very healthy, inclusive environment for them situated in sport.

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Speaker 1: It's really an out growth of understanding and exploring how

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Speaker 1: are we really interrogating all of black women's experiences across

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Speaker 1: these different domains. And that's something I wanted to dig

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Speaker 1: into a little bit more. Is like you mentioned that

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Speaker 1: kind of breaking this area of sports psychology down into

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Speaker 1: identifying factors such as genders, such as race, and looking

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Speaker 1: at it that way and taking into account all of these,

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Speaker 1: you know, individual experiences that people may have not thought of,

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Speaker 1: would have an impact or conversely, sport would have an

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Speaker 1: impact on their lives, I suppose. So I guess my

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Speaker 1: question then is just why is it so important to

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Speaker 1: look at it through that lens of of individual experiences,

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Speaker 1: individual identifying factors, you know, I think I look at

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Speaker 1: it through more structural experiences and system based experiences, like

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Speaker 1: what are the ways in which racism, sexism, as well

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Speaker 1: as things just from an ecological perspective, right like policies,

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Speaker 1: community organizations. How do all of these things at the

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Speaker 1: intersection of sport and physical activity impact women and girls

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Speaker 1: of color, Black women and girls. The mom's got enough

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Speaker 1: gold medal that holds someone give this girl up, grown

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Speaker 1: Simone Biles. There's a relationship to how she has experienced

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Speaker 1: being an elite black woman as well as the experience

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Speaker 1: of the ten yearal black girl who might be told that,

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Speaker 1: you know, she can't participate in this particular sport because

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Speaker 1: dot dot dot dot dot, right, Like, there's some similarities there.

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Speaker 1: And so when we look structurally at the systems of

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Speaker 1: racism and sexism and classism, I look at it more

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Speaker 1: at this kind of larger system of isms and how

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Speaker 1: they kind of interconnect across black women's experiences across the board,

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Speaker 1: and I think that I believe that if we address

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Speaker 1: how black women experienced sport, recreation and physical activity, that

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Speaker 1: we can also really dismantle a lot of other achiness

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Speaker 1: that other people experience. Yeah, you know, you mentioned Simone Biles.

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Speaker 1: I think we saw black women athletes being at the

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Speaker 1: forefront of these conversations around mental health and also receiving

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Speaker 1: a lot of backlash for it too. You know, your

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Speaker 1: work focuses on understanding this concept of the strong Black

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Speaker 1: women's schema, and I don't know if you see that

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Speaker 1: coming into play with either how some of these athletes

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Speaker 1: have been received by the media and the public eye

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Speaker 1: and also what they're experiencing at the same time. I

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Speaker 1: think there's definitely a samples of the ways in which

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Speaker 1: the strong black woman shows up with the ways in

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Speaker 1: which you know, Naomia Soccer, Simone Biles, Serena Williams, as

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Speaker 1: well as Alice and Felix and others are are treated

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Speaker 1: um and narratives are written around them in their personal

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Speaker 1: advocacy as well as the advocacy in general of others

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Speaker 1: and mental health and maternal health. Some of the elements

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Speaker 1: when it comes to. You know, the Superwoman schema is

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Speaker 1: this idea of self sacrificing, putting the interests of others

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Speaker 1: ahead of yourself. Simone Biles. I think that is probably

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Speaker 1: a prime example put mental health first, because if you don't,

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Speaker 1: then you're not going to enjoy your sport and you're

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Speaker 1: not going to succeed as much as you want to.

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Speaker 1: Although she shared that look, you know, I'm experiencing the

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Speaker 1: twisties or whatever might have been her experience, there was

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Speaker 1: this criticism of set that aside. Set whatever it is

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Speaker 1: that you're experiencing aside, and take one for the team.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this is sad, This is that, this is disgraceful.

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Speaker 1: She was a little stressed out, and look, she's just

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Speaker 1: there to have fun, She's just there for her right.

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Speaker 1: And I think what's also rack in the side of

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Speaker 1: that is this second element of the Superwoman ideal is

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Speaker 1: that black women are supposed to be superhuman and bionic.

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Speaker 1: They're supposed to be impervious to harm. If you got

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Speaker 1: all these mental health problems don't show up. What Simone

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Speaker 1: Biles did was say, I reject this idea that I'm

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Speaker 1: not supposed to be caring for myself. That I'm not

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Speaker 1: supposed to be connected to what my body needs. It's

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Speaker 1: okay sometimes to even set out the big contitions, to

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Speaker 1: focus on yourself because it shows how strong of a

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Speaker 1: competitor in person that you really are. And so when

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Speaker 1: you put both of those elements together, you get this

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Speaker 1: kind of social psyche that thinks black women as one.

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Speaker 1: You can't possibly be experiencing any form of vulnerability because

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Speaker 1: you're a black woman. You're superhuman. The second element is no,

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Speaker 1: you're supposed to take one for a team, which means

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Speaker 1: even if you are experiencing an injury, harm, or weakness,

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Speaker 1: you're supposed to put that aside and you know that

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Speaker 1: you can get us the gold. The issue is that

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Speaker 1: we're trying to win, and Simone Biles is a black woman,

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Speaker 1: naomiir Sakka is a is a biracial woman. Serrea Williams

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Speaker 1: is a black woman. They're they're supposed to be able

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Speaker 1: to fix things. We've seen this represented in contemporary models

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Speaker 1: of the superwoman. Carrie Washington on Scandal, you know the fixer.

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Speaker 1: She can fix anything right. Fixing is winning. Her job

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Speaker 1: is to go out there and get us the gold.

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Speaker 1: She can do this right forget everything else. She's not

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Speaker 1: supposed to feel her feelings, she just does. We know

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Speaker 1: that this idea of self sacrificing is related to chronic illness,

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Speaker 1: stress depressive symptoms, that when you're not able to care

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Speaker 1: for yourself, you're not able to sustain health. But short term,

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Speaker 1: it's very clear it's just actual safety that if she

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Speaker 1: were to have actually engaged in what critics asked her to,

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Speaker 1: her life and safety would have been on the line.

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Speaker 1: And when black women are put into the container of

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Speaker 1: a superwoman ideal, then it is hard for people to

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Speaker 1: see them as human. And so it's very easy for

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Speaker 1: people who rest within that superwoman ideal to reject the

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Speaker 1: idea that a Naomi O soccer would have feelings, would

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Speaker 1: have mental health issues, would be human because they can't

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Speaker 1: see her outside of that box. We'll be back after

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Speaker 1: the break. And Jessica's case, in her story, there were

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Speaker 1: clearly my progressions, but then also clearly just you know,

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Speaker 1: blatant racism that she was experiencing growing up. Her grandmother

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Speaker 1: talked about these same experiences that she had really and

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Speaker 1: that she very much informed kind of how Jessica would

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Speaker 1: respond to them. Soccer in the us is this predominantly

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Speaker 1: white sport. Oh you're gonna call me this to my

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Speaker 1: face in the field. And my grandmother be like you

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Speaker 1: please believe you better beat her on the field. And

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Speaker 1: I always like that. But it was pretty much like

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Speaker 1: you keep quiet and just go on about your day,

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Speaker 1: keep your head down, don't make guy in contact, but

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Speaker 1: don't let it make you angry. How how do you

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Speaker 1: not internalize that though? How do you not lash out

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Speaker 1: after an incident like that occurs? And then or go

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Speaker 1: back home and cry and ask why this is happening?

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Speaker 1: And he did that? Of course. Oh I cry all

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Speaker 1: the time. Oh don't I am human being? Yes, of course,

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Speaker 1: I'll never forget. I was the only black girl on

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Speaker 1: the bench before a team I was playing was just

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Speaker 1: a couple of years ago. I don't want to say

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Speaker 1: who I was playing for at the time. Um, there

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Speaker 1: was a referee. We were lined up and I was

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Speaker 1: lined up to like walk to the bench, shane guards

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Speaker 1: in hand. Referee came up to me and no one

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Speaker 1: else and I'm the only black girl on the bench.

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Speaker 1: She only checks me out, like where are your shing guards?

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Speaker 1: I'm like, I don't need my shining guards, right, now

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Speaker 1: I'm not going in the game right now. You need

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Speaker 1: your shining guards. You need to put them on. No

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Speaker 1: I don't. I'm on bench right now, Like leave me alone. No,

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Speaker 1: you need to put your shin guards on or we

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Speaker 1: can we can boot you, like blah blah blah. And

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Speaker 1: I was just like, that's not even rule. Like I'm

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Speaker 1: going to be on the bench, you know, its coming

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Speaker 1: in at half. I'm like I will be going in

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Speaker 1: the game in literally an hour, like leave me alone.

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Speaker 1: And then my white teammate comes with me. She's like

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Speaker 1: why did she do that? And I was just like,

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of pointed to my skin and she

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Speaker 1: was like no, and I'm like, yeah, it happens. It does.

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Speaker 1: And my teammate was just like that was horrible, Like

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Speaker 1: I would never think to do. I was like, I know,

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Speaker 1: because you're a good person, my friend. You know, it's okay.

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Speaker 1: I'm fine, Let's go sit down on the bench, have

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Speaker 1: some mot coco and like chill every area. Yeah, you know.

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Speaker 1: Now she's like I want to say something back, and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to use my platform that I've earned to

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Speaker 1: do so and call out racism and call out sexism. Yes,

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Speaker 1: absolutely Jessica's experiences just as with anyone, these are very

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Speaker 1: real experiences for black women athletes, and I'm curious how

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Speaker 1: we can sort of turn the conversation more, you know,

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Speaker 1: what can be done on the part of the people

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Speaker 1: that are enacting this in order to either be allies

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Speaker 1: in these situations or to stop them from occurring. Yees,

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Speaker 1: So how do we address microaggressions? Because microaggressions can be verbal,

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Speaker 1: they can be postural, it can be anything that conveys

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Speaker 1: behavior that's unwelcoming. Right. The first thing is that we

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Speaker 1: all are products of our environment. Outside of the blatant

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Speaker 1: forms of racism and sexism, most of what we're talking

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Speaker 1: about when we're talking about microaggressions, most people don't know

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Speaker 1: is a microaggression. So these things typically have to be

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Speaker 1: brought to someone's attention in order for them to begin

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Speaker 1: the conversation that, oh wow, like I didn't realize that

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Speaker 1: I engaged in this form of aggression. My recommendation whenever

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Speaker 1: I talk about micro aggressions is you do not need

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Speaker 1: to apologize right then and there. You can honestly stay

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Speaker 1: in that moment. Thank you for telling me this. If

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Speaker 1: it's okay, I would like to, you know, step away

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Speaker 1: and digest what you shared with me, get informed about

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Speaker 1: the situation because I didn't know. I didn't know that

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Speaker 1: this was a thing, and then if you're open to it,

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Speaker 1: can I come back once I'm more informed and have

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Speaker 1: a conversation with you. The second thing is, don't victim

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Speaker 1: blame if someone says what you did was a microaggression

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Speaker 1: it made me feel, you know, unsafe or invalidated. Really

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Speaker 1: allow their experience to be their experience, and allow yourself

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Speaker 1: to be open to the possibility that you might have

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Speaker 1: offended someone. So we have to recognize we're not gonna

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Speaker 1: be perfect outside of the person calling someone the N

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Speaker 1: word or outside of someone you know, doing these very

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Speaker 1: extreme things. Most of the time it's something that we

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Speaker 1: really would just wouldn't know. However, microaggressions are typically characterized

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Speaker 1: as a thousand little cuts, so they do add up

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Speaker 1: when they do go unaddressed. When we don't address these

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Speaker 1: small little things as they add up, they do really

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Speaker 1: begin to hurt very deeply. And I think the third

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Speaker 1: thing would be is to validate that person's experience. Thank

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Speaker 1: you for letting me know, because you've added to my

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Speaker 1: understanding of the world and of human experience, and I

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Speaker 1: am really going to absorb this, And I think it's

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Speaker 1: hard because it's kind of the chicken or the egg.

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Speaker 1: Most people don't know they've microaggressed, so it does put

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Speaker 1: some element on the aggressive or an ally, and so

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Speaker 1: that conversation has to be had by someone, so that

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Speaker 1: way there's some type of intervention. Yeah, there are a

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Speaker 1: couple of terms that I've seen sort of thrown around

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Speaker 1: with Smoan and Naomi, and also when it comes to

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Speaker 1: Jessica and the women named in this particular lawsuit that

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Speaker 1: we're looking at, it tends to be words like greedy.

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Speaker 1: They're being greedy by asking for more and trying to

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Speaker 1: set these boundaries, or it's weak of them to step

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Speaker 1: back and try to take time or ask for help.

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Speaker 1: Why is that part of this kind of construct that

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Speaker 1: maybe needs to be deconstructed. Yeah, I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: when women fight for their rights, when they fight for

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Speaker 1: for fairness, they're going against a system of patriarchy that

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Speaker 1: is designed to not create and maintain equality. So when

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Speaker 1: you fight against that, one of the quickest reactions is

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Speaker 1: to type kiss the opposer as something right, particularly as

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Speaker 1: something that doesn't fit within like these passive ideas of womanhood. Right, So,

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Speaker 1: because it's a woman who is asking for equality, the

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Speaker 1: easiest way to say, Okay, well, you're opposing what we

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Speaker 1: in this sexist system don't think you deserve. We're going

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Speaker 1: to typecast you as being unladylike, you're this, you're that, right,

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Speaker 1: And so we have to call sexism for what it is.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's sexist, it's hateful, it's harmful. And the

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Speaker 1: same is done at a much more intersectional level when

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Speaker 1: it's women of color. When it's black women, you know,

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Speaker 1: they're called angry, they're called having an attitude, they're called

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Speaker 1: all these things, and it's just racist and sexist, lies

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Speaker 1: and and invalidate women's experiences in a world that is,

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Speaker 1: you know, deeply racist and sexist. The more Black women

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Speaker 1: that come out and speak about their instances of racism

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Speaker 1: within sport, speak about their mental health, speak about the

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Speaker 1: ways in which they persevere, and their own advocacy and

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Speaker 1: activism identity in order to try to disrupt these systems,

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Speaker 1: it tells us that this is real. This is not

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Speaker 1: just one person's experience. It's not the exception, but it's

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Speaker 1: the rule. And until we truly acknowledge that this is

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Speaker 1: the rule for black women, and we hold this fact,

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Speaker 1: we're not going to be able to make systemic change.

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Speaker 1: Is there any detriment I guess to the individual for

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Speaker 1: sharing these experiences, kind of living them publicly without sort

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Speaker 1: of you know, reliving some of that trauma. I suppose,

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Speaker 1: you know, it seems like, but there's also kind of

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Speaker 1: this element of, well, it seems to be helpful for

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Speaker 1: society to understand where things need to change, but there

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Speaker 1: is there a way to balance that with the needs

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Speaker 1: of the individual. I mean, I think balance is always key.

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Speaker 1: You know, something that you're speaking to it's just the

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Speaker 1: general idea of advocacy and that you know, when people

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Speaker 1: step into their advocacy identity, what are the elements of that?

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Speaker 1: You know, certainly part of engaging in advocacy for oneself

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Speaker 1: and for others, it certainly can bring up, you know,

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Speaker 1: experiences that have been harmful or unhealed and unsettled. One

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Speaker 1: positive is that it can be an open door for

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Speaker 1: someone to seek you know, mental health support and treatment

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Speaker 1: to really get those areas healed and processed and work through. Right.

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Speaker 1: Another element of that that you just spoke about is

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Speaker 1: that potentially part of that healing process is that engaging

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Speaker 1: in advocacy can give someone a deep sense of purpose

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Speaker 1: and reframe the things that they've experienced. Right. So balance

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Speaker 1: is always key, but for some, you know, engaging in

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Speaker 1: advocacy can be something that is deeply part of the

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Speaker 1: healing process. It gives you something to be grounded to

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Speaker 1: and to say, you know what, while this might have

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Speaker 1: been something that happened to me, I'm able to turn

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Speaker 1: those wounds and those past experience sits into something positive

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Speaker 1: that might be moving a generation in a community forward.

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Speaker 1: I'm Alexandrea. Payback is a production of The Charlotte Observer,

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Speaker 1: Raleigh News and Observer, McClatchy Studios, and iHeart Radio. It's

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Speaker 1: produced by Cotta Stevens, Casey Tough, Julia Wall, and Davin Cockburn.

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