1 00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 1: Welcome to tech stuff. I'm os Voloshen here with Cara Price. 2 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:22,280 Speaker 1: Hi Cara, hi os So. I recently talked with a fellow, 3 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: Britt who reminded me of something that I think you 4 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:28,600 Speaker 1: Americans often take for granted. 5 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:33,479 Speaker 2: The center of gravity for the tech industry is so 6 00:00:33,760 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 2: much on the West coast of the United States. It's 7 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:37,920 Speaker 2: you know, you could imagine the whole thing just tipping 8 00:00:37,960 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 2: over into the Pacific Ocean. It's so it's so heavy. 9 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,199 Speaker 2: And that's great for California, it's great for Seattle at 10 00:00:44,320 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 2: Washington State. But it's worrying and it should be of 11 00:00:47,080 --> 00:00:48,839 Speaker 2: a great concern to the rest of the world. What 12 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:50,880 Speaker 2: is our future? Are we just going to be takers 13 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:51,519 Speaker 2: not makers? 14 00:00:51,800 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 3: You know, it's really interesting because as an American like 15 00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,240 Speaker 3: I rarely imagine what it's like to be a taker 16 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 3: rather than a maker, because so much innovation comes from 17 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 3: our tech sector. 18 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: You know, that's right. Nick McEwan has seen the story 19 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 1: play out from both sides of the Atlantic. He built 20 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:14,400 Speaker 1: rather an impressive roster of credits, Professor of computer science 21 00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 1: and electrical Engineering at Stanford, Unicorn founder, and a meaningful 22 00:01:21,000 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: claim to having built the Internet. His work formed the 23 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: basis of Cisco System's GSR router, which at one time 24 00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: made up seventy five percent of the backbone of the Internet. 25 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:36,520 Speaker 1: But Nick recently returned to the UK and he's become 26 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:41,040 Speaker 1: particularly concerned about the fate of Britain's technology sector because 27 00:01:41,160 --> 00:01:44,120 Speaker 1: he in fact sits on the Prime Minister's Council on 28 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: Science and Technology, which. 29 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 3: Is like an incredibly powerful position to have. But I'm 30 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 3: also biased because of how much power this US administration 31 00:01:53,200 --> 00:01:56,880 Speaker 3: handed over to Elon Musk and Doge briefly, very briefly. 32 00:01:57,560 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: But I'm glad you brought Doze up because I couldn't 33 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,279 Speaker 1: resist asking Nick when we first met on the phone 34 00:02:03,840 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: whether he was Britain's Doge. He laughed in that classic 35 00:02:08,639 --> 00:02:11,640 Speaker 1: English way, which I think was his way of deflecting 36 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: and saying I think you just did it, his way 37 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: of saying get lost. But of course when I got 38 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: him into the recording studio, I had to ask him 39 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: what he thought about Doge and how Elon ran it. 40 00:02:22,600 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 2: Immense respect for him as an entrepreneur and as a technologist. 41 00:02:26,240 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 2: I think that he's brought about some of the most 42 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 2: incredible technology, brought it to market. I think it turned 43 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 2: out that he wasn't so good in the political sphere. 44 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 2: I think the sort of the slash and burn approach 45 00:02:36,600 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 2: to trying to streamline government just showed that he didn't 46 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:41,919 Speaker 2: have the experience didn't work, and I think it was 47 00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 2: a pretty much in a visible failure. I think the 48 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 2: real sad thing about that is the wasted opportunity. I 49 00:02:48,760 --> 00:02:52,240 Speaker 2: think everyone who looks at the US government the British 50 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 2: government can say, of course it can be streamlined, of 51 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 2: course it can be improved, and by the abysmal way 52 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:01,520 Speaker 2: that he handled it, it set us back a long 53 00:03:01,560 --> 00:03:03,720 Speaker 2: way because it's going to be very hard for someone 54 00:03:03,760 --> 00:03:06,400 Speaker 2: else to step in with the same role and say 55 00:03:06,400 --> 00:03:08,240 Speaker 2: that they'll give it a go. I don't think anyone's 56 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 2: going to trust that someone could do that. 57 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 4: Well. I'm curious, like how exactly is Nick helping the 58 00:03:14,760 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 4: UK government be more efficient and like, how does he 59 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 4: see you know, this role being something that could actually 60 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:24,240 Speaker 4: be effective as opposed to dismal. 61 00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:28,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, unlike Dough, she doesn't have executive function. He's literally 62 00:03:28,880 --> 00:03:31,160 Speaker 1: an advisor, right, and one of the things he's most 63 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:35,280 Speaker 1: interested in is how Britain best positions itself for the future. 64 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: We spoke a lot about AI chips, and interestingly, Nick's 65 00:03:39,760 --> 00:03:43,520 Speaker 1: great ambition for the UK is to take second place 66 00:03:43,920 --> 00:03:47,520 Speaker 1: behind the US in chip manufacturing. He wants, he wants 67 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: to bet, but lifts on the rise right now. 68 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:51,200 Speaker 4: Some people would argue it's better to be left. 69 00:03:51,400 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: Nick also sits on the border of this government agency 70 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: called ARIA, the Advanced Research and Invention Agency. For me, 71 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:00,280 Speaker 1: it was just cool to get an inside view on 72 00:04:00,320 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: how my own country's government is positioning itself for this 73 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: new technological age, especially the time when something else I'm 74 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,640 Speaker 1: fascinated in, which is how many nation states are starting 75 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: to get deeply involved in the private sector, starting to 76 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,479 Speaker 1: kind of be market participants themselves, like you know, the 77 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: US investment in Intel under Trump. And actually Nick, funny 78 00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 1: enough was a senior figure at Intel for many years. 79 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 1: But without further ado, here's the rest of our conversation. 80 00:04:27,560 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: So on Earth persuaded you to depart from sunny California 81 00:04:31,960 --> 00:04:37,080 Speaker 1: to rainy Britain to advise the British government to move 82 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:39,560 Speaker 1: from the future to a place that often looks like 83 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:40,080 Speaker 1: the past. 84 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:42,800 Speaker 2: You know, I left the UK in nineteen eighty nine 85 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:47,560 Speaker 2: as a somewhat angry twenty six year old feeling there 86 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:50,360 Speaker 2: was no future for someone that was interested in technology 87 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: and the UK. It was the time of the Thatcher government, 88 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,359 Speaker 2: where all of the emphasis and focus was on the 89 00:04:56,400 --> 00:04:59,960 Speaker 2: city and growing the financial institutions. You could look at 90 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 2: and say that that paid off, but they came at 91 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 2: the cost for technology, and it just seemed that engineer 92 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 2: was still a dirty word. Back in nineteen eighty nine, 93 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 2: I left saying Okay, I'm done here. My tribe is 94 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 2: in California. But in the meantime, you know, it would 95 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,280 Speaker 2: be easy to say, oh, the UK just languished. You know, 96 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 2: we had our ups and downs, and there was certainly 97 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 2: some big missed opportunities we had over the years. But 98 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 2: I really felt as though something was changing. There was 99 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,799 Speaker 2: a much more of an optimism about our opportunity, both 100 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:35,520 Speaker 2: in AI and in technology more generally. I'd seen that 101 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 2: firsthand through interactions with UK companies, UK universities, so I 102 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: felt sort of felt the ingredients seemed to be coming together. 103 00:05:44,600 --> 00:05:47,359 Speaker 2: And I'd started to read about ARIA, you know, a 104 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 2: whole new bold way of funding research from government. Thought okay, 105 00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 2: you know there's there's something that's changing there. And you know, 106 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 2: I'd been it fairly involved in a number of government 107 00:05:58,560 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 2: funded research projects Stanford, from NSF, from Darper, and various 108 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:05,840 Speaker 2: other sources, and so it was very familiar with how 109 00:06:05,880 --> 00:06:08,960 Speaker 2: that worked in the US, and you know, as a consequence, 110 00:06:09,040 --> 00:06:11,479 Speaker 2: I then got more involved with ARIA and joined their board. 111 00:06:12,040 --> 00:06:17,400 Speaker 1: The paradigm established by Elon and Doge was basically, technologists 112 00:06:17,680 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: are better than bureaucrats at deploying technology and creating opportunities 113 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: for technological growth, which should be kind of national strategic priority. 114 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: I mean, it's interesting because the mission of DOSE was 115 00:06:32,440 --> 00:06:36,919 Speaker 1: really around slashing and cutting, whereas you know, the lesson 116 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 1: you might take from Silicon Valley and the extent to 117 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: which it was built on the foundation of government investment 118 00:06:44,360 --> 00:06:46,919 Speaker 1: from the United States government over the last decades and 119 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:51,720 Speaker 1: the extraordinary concentration of wealth and power that investment created, 120 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,279 Speaker 1: both the Silicon Valley, but you know, more widely for 121 00:06:54,640 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 1: the United States. As you think about what you're trying 122 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:59,960 Speaker 1: to do in the UK, it sounds like it's much 123 00:07:00,160 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 1: more in that latter camp. 124 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:08,800 Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely, I'm an enormous fan of careful, thoughtful, bold 125 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 2: investment by government in order to be able to get 126 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:15,240 Speaker 2: things started and wherever possible, for government then get out 127 00:07:15,240 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 2: of the way, because the free market and startups and 128 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 2: entrepreneurship are a wonderful way to create economic growth. But 129 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:29,320 Speaker 2: you can kick start them with investment in university's investment 130 00:07:29,360 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 2: in small companies in order to be able to get 131 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 2: this going. And Silicon Valley is a fantastic example of 132 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 2: this all across silicon value. We've seen how that model works. 133 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 2: So you know, I think what we can do in 134 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 2: the UK is several fold. First of all, we have 135 00:07:43,280 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 2: to look at strategically important areas that we can invest in. 136 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:49,640 Speaker 2: One that I've been focused on in particular over the 137 00:07:49,720 --> 00:07:53,760 Speaker 2: last year is the AI chips, so chips for the 138 00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:58,040 Speaker 2: AI market. Nearly everybody that's making money, serious money and 139 00:07:58,080 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 2: serious economic growth out of the AI market are the 140 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,640 Speaker 2: people building the chips. In Vidia being the bright shining 141 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 2: example as the most valuable company in the world, just 142 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 2: top five trillion dollars in terms of its market cap. 143 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 2: So you know, where is our role in all of this. 144 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 2: What is the opportunity for the UK. We have a 145 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 2: strong history in the semiconductor industry. We have a strong 146 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:24,480 Speaker 2: history in computer architecture. You know the stories we built 147 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:27,280 Speaker 2: the first commercial computer we built the first electronic memory. 148 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,760 Speaker 2: We have ARM designs ninety percent of the world CPUs, 149 00:08:31,040 --> 00:08:33,959 Speaker 2: so we've got a strong history in this in this area. 150 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 2: How do we rebuild that in order to be able 151 00:08:37,120 --> 00:08:39,720 Speaker 2: to take a sort of a chunk of this opportunity. 152 00:08:39,800 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 2: To put it into perspective, the market value of Nvidia 153 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,760 Speaker 2: is ten x that of open Ai. Yet when we 154 00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:52,320 Speaker 2: think of AI, we tend to think of companies like 155 00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:56,920 Speaker 2: open Ai and chat GPT obviously fantastic growth, but those 156 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 2: who are producing the infrastructure upon which it runs, they're 157 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:05,199 Speaker 2: the ones that are bringing significant value and lasting value. 158 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:08,200 Speaker 2: It takes a huge investment in order to build a 159 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 2: business like that, but this is where a lot of 160 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,800 Speaker 2: opportunity is and it's growing currently at about thirty percent 161 00:09:13,840 --> 00:09:17,720 Speaker 2: per year. There are very very few markets that grow 162 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 2: at thirty percent per year. By twenty thirty three and 163 00:09:21,440 --> 00:09:26,000 Speaker 2: the current growth rate, the AI chip market worldwide will 164 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 2: be seven hundred billion dollars. That is staggering. Imagine if 165 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:35,320 Speaker 2: the UK could reach up and grab five percent market 166 00:09:35,320 --> 00:09:38,960 Speaker 2: share of that seven hundred billion dollars global revenue, there 167 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 2: will be thirty five billion profitable, high margin dollars of 168 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:46,520 Speaker 2: revenue into the UK. I think that is the opportunity 169 00:09:46,559 --> 00:09:49,200 Speaker 2: before us, and I think if we can be ambitious 170 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:53,200 Speaker 2: and go after it and invest, train our workforce get 171 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:56,640 Speaker 2: ready for it, it is an enormous opportunity for economic 172 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:57,480 Speaker 2: growth for the UK. 173 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,160 Speaker 1: So it's working back from a premise of where you 174 00:10:01,160 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: need to be in ten years in terms of having 175 00:10:03,120 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: the best chip talent outside of the US. 176 00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,000 Speaker 2: That's right, yes, and I happen to think that we're 177 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 2: in a very very strong position now. We need to 178 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,240 Speaker 2: double our workforce in order to be able to do it. 179 00:10:14,280 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 2: We currently have about twelve thousand chip designers in the 180 00:10:17,559 --> 00:10:23,000 Speaker 2: UK and it's a slightly aging workforce, so we actually 181 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:25,360 Speaker 2: need to move quite fast just to stay at the 182 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 2: status quo. But with an industry that's growing at thirty 183 00:10:28,240 --> 00:10:31,959 Speaker 2: percent per year, we probably need to double our workforce 184 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 2: within the next ten years. So we need to be 185 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:37,520 Speaker 2: training a lot more people within the country. That's getting 186 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:41,560 Speaker 2: more people into electrical engineering and computer science degrees. Those 187 00:10:41,559 --> 00:10:43,960 Speaker 2: are mostly people who are doing a level physics right 188 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 2: now in the UK, so you know they're the seventeen 189 00:10:46,840 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 2: eighteen year olds right now, and so you know, I've 190 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 2: been recommending to the government that they increase their bursary 191 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 2: scheme to incentivize and encourage more A level students to 192 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,959 Speaker 2: go into electrical engineering so that they can be rare 193 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 2: to be chip designers in four or five years time. 194 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 2: And this sends a message, right, It sends a message 195 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 2: that this is important. We won't get there by training 196 00:11:11,200 --> 00:11:14,840 Speaker 2: our own A level students alone. We need to bring 197 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:20,400 Speaker 2: in experience chip designers from overseas, So figuring out with 198 00:11:20,480 --> 00:11:24,320 Speaker 2: our visas and encouraging and incentives to entrepreneurs and chip 199 00:11:24,360 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 2: designers from overseas, encouraging outposts from chip design companies to 200 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:31,600 Speaker 2: move to the UK. So we just increase that talent base, 201 00:11:31,679 --> 00:11:35,200 Speaker 2: we increase the concentration. And frankly, the US is not 202 00:11:35,320 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 2: so appealing for many people who are in science and 203 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,240 Speaker 2: technology right now, and they'll say, actually, that's not somewhere 204 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 2: I want to go. I was just talking to someone 205 00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:45,480 Speaker 2: the other day, very experienced technologist who had recently moved 206 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 2: to the UK and who decided, I don't actually want 207 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 2: to move to the US right now. This is not 208 00:11:50,160 --> 00:11:53,079 Speaker 2: an environment that feels welcoming where I want to build 209 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 2: my career, where I want to move my family. I'd 210 00:11:55,280 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 2: actually much rather stay here. 211 00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: What do you say to people who are that we're 212 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:01,080 Speaker 1: in a bubble right now? Obviously you were on the 213 00:12:01,080 --> 00:12:03,960 Speaker 1: inside at Cisco, which was briefly the most valuable company 214 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,319 Speaker 1: in the world before the dot com crash. How durable 215 00:12:07,320 --> 00:12:09,680 Speaker 1: and sustainable is this compute build out? 216 00:12:10,280 --> 00:12:13,920 Speaker 2: It will for sure have peaks and troughs, just as 217 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 2: we saw and the build out of the Internet. I 218 00:12:16,760 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 2: think it would be reasonable to expect that we're in 219 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 2: some kind of hype cycle at the moment. I have 220 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 2: no idea when that will plateau or when that might 221 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,080 Speaker 2: have a sort of a correction, just as we saw 222 00:12:27,120 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 2: with the Internet in the nineteen nineties. It may be 223 00:12:30,040 --> 00:12:32,320 Speaker 2: a little bit like a small version of the bubble 224 00:12:32,360 --> 00:12:34,400 Speaker 2: that may happen in the future. But just think what 225 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 2: happened afterwards. The Internet didn't stop. It just took a 226 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 2: setback for a little while, and then it came back 227 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 2: with a vengeance. Yeah, we got rid of a lot 228 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:44,640 Speaker 2: of the fluff that was being invested in at that time, 229 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 2: but the good companies survived. They continue to grow, and 230 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:51,400 Speaker 2: all the social media companies that came along, all the 231 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,560 Speaker 2: other Internet companies that came along, and then it made 232 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:58,360 Speaker 2: AI possible because of the interconnection of compute the amount 233 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 2: of data that was available, and so I expect we'll 234 00:13:01,280 --> 00:13:03,600 Speaker 2: see the same thing happen with AI. It'll go through 235 00:13:03,640 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 2: cycles and plateaus, but long term, it's not a technology 236 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 2: that we'll forget. It's not a technology we'll say, oh, well, 237 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:13,040 Speaker 2: we don't need this anymore. 238 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: I mean, it's an interesting position for you because you've 239 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: got to observe and participate in the proliferation of the Internet, 240 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 1: and now the proliferation of AI is starting in your view, 241 00:13:25,160 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: and you get to actually advise the government on how 242 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:30,680 Speaker 1: to think about it and how to prepare for a 243 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:34,080 Speaker 1: future where the UK actually gets to capture part of 244 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:36,680 Speaker 1: the value. But you also have to think about downside risk. 245 00:13:37,040 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 2: I think you have to be prepared to make old 246 00:13:40,800 --> 00:13:43,920 Speaker 2: bets knowing that some of them won't work out, and 247 00:13:43,960 --> 00:13:46,320 Speaker 2: this is hard for government to do. Whether you're a 248 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 2: short term elected official or you're a longer term civil servant. 249 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 2: No one feels that they get rewarded for taking a 250 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 2: big bet that doesn't work out. So the most important 251 00:13:58,360 --> 00:14:01,840 Speaker 2: thing I think is to help government get comfortable with 252 00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:06,920 Speaker 2: the necessity of taking risk, and therefore the best thing 253 00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:11,559 Speaker 2: to do is to rather than thinly spread what will 254 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 2: always be a limited budget, particularly in fiscally tight times 255 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,640 Speaker 2: like now, is actually to make a reasonable number of 256 00:14:19,720 --> 00:14:24,920 Speaker 2: bets and to go along with experts who have some 257 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:29,160 Speaker 2: skin in the game investors usually or entrepreneurs, and work 258 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 2: with them or invest along with them in order to 259 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 2: be able to use their expertise. And I had said before, 260 00:14:37,160 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 2: I think the biggest growth potential that we have in 261 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 2: this country is in aichips, the design of aichips. I 262 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:46,240 Speaker 2: don't think we should be manufacturing in them in the UK. 263 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 2: That's a nation state activity which is well beyond our budget. Actually, 264 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 2: the opportunity is to do what AMD and Invidio and 265 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 2: Broadcom do, three of the most successful companies in the world. 266 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:02,000 Speaker 2: They design them. They create the intellectual property for the designs. 267 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: After the break the race for second place in AI 268 00:15:13,880 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: chip design, stay with us. Welcome back. I'm as Velocian 269 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: and you've been listening to my conversation with Nick McEwen, 270 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,880 Speaker 1: who sits on the Prime Minister's Council on Science and Technology. 271 00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 1: Before the break, Nick mentioned that he believes the UK 272 00:15:43,480 --> 00:15:46,640 Speaker 1: government should help Britain be a power player in AI 273 00:15:46,760 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: chip design. But what surprised me is that Nick is 274 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: vying for second place. 275 00:15:52,480 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 2: What I'm looking to do is to see how can 276 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 2: the UK be not first in the world. I think 277 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,600 Speaker 2: we have to concede that the US has as pretty 278 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 2: much licked at this point, with a vast majority of 279 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,120 Speaker 2: the AI chips being designed there and the products are 280 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 2: sold from the US. But who's going to be second? 281 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 2: Which country in the world is going to be second 282 00:16:15,600 --> 00:16:19,440 Speaker 2: in most areas of technology, that's China, We always say China, 283 00:16:20,080 --> 00:16:24,280 Speaker 2: and in fact often they come in, they commoditize, they invest, 284 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 2: like they did with solar panels and photovoltaics right, and 285 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 2: then anyone else that was trying to be in that 286 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 2: space basically was shut out and gave up. They can't 287 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,040 Speaker 2: do it here. And the reason they can't do it 288 00:16:36,080 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 2: here is because AI chips use the most advanced processing nodes, 289 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 2: which in the semiconductor industry right now is three nanometers 290 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:50,880 Speaker 2: or two nanimeter nodes. China can't use nodes below seven 291 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 2: nanometers at the moment because of export restrictions that don't 292 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 2: give them access to the technology that they need, so 293 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:03,800 Speaker 2: held at Bay. So beyond the US, who are the 294 00:17:03,840 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 2: countries that are in the best position with the most 295 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 2: experience of doing chip design, that have an understanding of AI. 296 00:17:11,560 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 2: We are, after all the only country outside the US 297 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 2: and China that has a foundational model company deep mind. 298 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 2: We have a long experience of being architects and designers 299 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,840 Speaker 2: of chips. If we can put those together, couple with 300 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 2: our universities, then we can be the second best in 301 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,480 Speaker 2: the world. So we should be able to get much 302 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 2: more than that five percent that I talked about earlier. 303 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:35,879 Speaker 2: We should be able to get more than that, So 304 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 2: it's a pretty conservative ambition. 305 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:41,720 Speaker 1: You mentioned ARM, which is one of the top chip 306 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: design companies in the world, founded in Britain, I believe, 307 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:51,320 Speaker 1: but majority owned by the Japanese company soft Bank. Is 308 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:54,120 Speaker 1: that a win for the UK chip industry and would 309 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: you be happy if creating the next ARM is part 310 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 1: of your legacy. 311 00:17:57,560 --> 00:18:00,200 Speaker 2: I'd love to see ARM continue expand it's foot in 312 00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 2: the UK. Has a significant number of R and D 313 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:06,199 Speaker 2: engineers in the UK and to a large extent, it's 314 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 2: still very much a British company because of its large 315 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:12,520 Speaker 2: footprint in Cambridge and other parts of the country, so 316 00:18:12,840 --> 00:18:16,359 Speaker 2: you know it is a true British success. Would we 317 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 2: have preferred that it's stayed as a UK company, of course, 318 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,640 Speaker 2: but it's still bringing significant revenue and tax base into 319 00:18:22,680 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 2: the country. It's still training. They have a very big 320 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 2: training and internship program, so they are training the next 321 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 2: generation of chip designers, whether they work for ARM or 322 00:18:33,000 --> 00:18:35,560 Speaker 2: whether they go off and start their own companies. And 323 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 2: that's how these things work. 324 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: You know, when you think about what it might look 325 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: like to own five percent of the market, what does 326 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: that look like practically in terms of the product people 327 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,359 Speaker 1: will buy. Will it be I can't get access to 328 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 1: Nvidia and therefore are by British chips? Or I have 329 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,959 Speaker 1: something which is less complicated and therefore I don't need 330 00:18:56,000 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: the top of the line in video chips, so are 331 00:18:57,640 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 1: by British chips? Or is that more ambitious? Is there 332 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:03,000 Speaker 1: more specialized in applications that you think will be geospace 333 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: or whatever it may be that the Britain can win in. 334 00:19:06,760 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 2: So I think it's good to make an analogy here. 335 00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:12,080 Speaker 2: We talked about Cisco earlier in the early days of 336 00:19:12,240 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 2: the Internet. They were clearly a very dominant company very 337 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 2: early on and became for a while the most valuable 338 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 2: company in the world. And what happened to them was 339 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:25,439 Speaker 2: what happens to many companies at that scale, and then 340 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 2: they start to look at markets in terms of are 341 00:19:27,800 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 2: they big enough, and so what happened is there would 342 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 2: be new markets. Frankly, they weren't big enough, so they 343 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 2: didn't develop them, and so you had this whole ecosystem 344 00:19:36,000 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 2: of other companies that popped up producing them and lowerhol 345 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 2: those markets became a lot bigger over time, and so 346 00:19:42,760 --> 00:19:46,440 Speaker 2: it suddenly diversified the market and there were many opportunities 347 00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 2: for other players in the AI space. The same thing 348 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:54,480 Speaker 2: will happen. It's sort of inevitable that Nvidia will start 349 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 2: to look at some adjacent markets or smaller parts of 350 00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,360 Speaker 2: the market. Sooner or later, there'll be markets for which 351 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,080 Speaker 2: they say, these aren't really big enough for us to 352 00:20:03,280 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 2: go after. They could be in parts of robotics, they 353 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,000 Speaker 2: could be parts of factory automation, they could be in 354 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 2: autonomous drones, they could be in medical equipment. And someone 355 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 2: will come up with an innovation that fits that need. 356 00:20:17,560 --> 00:20:20,399 Speaker 2: And we have a number of promising startups, most of 357 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:22,520 Speaker 2: them in stealth mode in the UK, who are doing 358 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 2: exactly that they're going after. Particular areas or different sort 359 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,160 Speaker 2: of different techniques that they think will be more efficient, 360 00:20:29,840 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 2: that will go after specific portions of that market where 361 00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:37,840 Speaker 2: we can best serve the needs that will be unmet 362 00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 2: by other parts of the market. 363 00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: Do you worry about the future of the UK if 364 00:20:42,040 --> 00:20:45,360 Speaker 1: we don't take advantage of this on stony generation opportunity. 365 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 2: I think it's once in a generation because if we 366 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:52,439 Speaker 2: don't step up and do it, others will and they 367 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:55,040 Speaker 2: won't be room left for us. So it's one of 368 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 2: those things where we have to go and grab a 369 00:20:57,160 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 2: stake of the market because you have to be there 370 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,040 Speaker 2: for the long term. You have to be there for 371 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 2: multiple generations to build the trust and the understanding for 372 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 2: the customers. Who are those customers. They're big hyperscalers, they're 373 00:21:09,320 --> 00:21:12,560 Speaker 2: people that make cars, they're people that make robots, and 374 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 2: their system integrators generally people who are building systems out 375 00:21:16,320 --> 00:21:19,439 Speaker 2: of those chips. If we stay in the market for 376 00:21:19,480 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 2: a while, we'll have more of those system companies in 377 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 2: the UK. Today we don't really have a large system integrator, 378 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 2: someone that takes the chips and builds them up into 379 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:31,120 Speaker 2: systems in the UK. If we're building the chips, those 380 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:33,399 Speaker 2: companies will come along. We'll build that expertise. 381 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,600 Speaker 1: You mean cars factory like high tech manufacturing back on 382 00:21:36,640 --> 00:21:37,640 Speaker 1: British shaws. 383 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, robots, autonomous vehicles, drones. If we're building the chips 384 00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 2: and we have the ambition they will come. We'll then 385 00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:48,240 Speaker 2: develop packaging technology for putting more of these chips into 386 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 2: one package, will gain a broader expertise and that's then sustainable. 387 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 2: It's very difficult for that to then fail once you've 388 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 2: got that broad expertise across the market as a whole. 389 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 2: So if we don't do that, we won't have that, 390 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,159 Speaker 2: we won't get that revenue, and we will eventually be 391 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,719 Speaker 2: crowded out and it'll be very very hard for us 392 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 2: to make in roads. 393 00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: Let's talk about manufacturing versus design. You are pushing the 394 00:22:16,680 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: UK to rush towards second place in terms of the 395 00:22:21,080 --> 00:22:24,240 Speaker 1: second leading chip designer in the world after the US. 396 00:22:24,760 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: The US is thinking about sovereignty and chips very differently, 397 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:31,240 Speaker 1: which is thinking about how can we ensure the actual 398 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:35,639 Speaker 1: manufacturing of the chips. Right, and you have a background 399 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: and work at Intel, I think a still of senior 400 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 1: advisor there. The US government took a direct stake in 401 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 1: Intel Recently, Intel is spending tens of billions of dollars 402 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 1: on its new chip fabrication plants here in the US. 403 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,240 Speaker 1: What's happening in the US in terms of thinking in 404 00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:57,679 Speaker 1: political terms about sovereignty of chip manufacturing and how's it 405 00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: different from the considerations in Britain. 406 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:01,800 Speaker 2: You know, I think that it's very important to think 407 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 2: of the distinction between the design of a chip and manufacturing. 408 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 2: I'm sure you know this already, but I think it's 409 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 2: it's good to be very crystal clear about it. Think 410 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 2: about when you're designing a building a house. You have 411 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:14,639 Speaker 2: an architect who draws up the plans, and then you 412 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 2: have a contractor or a builder who will building. They 413 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:20,159 Speaker 2: are two very different skills, three different skill sets that 414 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:23,679 Speaker 2: involve a very different group of people. The design is 415 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,600 Speaker 2: like the architect, it's where the creativity. It's the understanding 416 00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:30,200 Speaker 2: of what's possible, the understanding of what you're trying to accomplish. 417 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 2: And then there's the building, which is sort of the 418 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 2: execution of that design of turning it into the into 419 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 2: the building or into the chair. Today, it costs about 420 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,080 Speaker 2: twenty five billion dollars to build a manufacturing plant for semiconductors. 421 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 2: You need to be all in, you need to have 422 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 2: a huge economy, you need to have a very big 423 00:23:49,840 --> 00:23:53,240 Speaker 2: determination to be a part of that industry. And the 424 00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 2: US has been part of that for a long time 425 00:23:55,920 --> 00:24:00,520 Speaker 2: through multiple companies IBM, Intel and now Global found But 426 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:02,480 Speaker 2: there's a lot of expertise in the US, so it 427 00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:06,360 Speaker 2: provided a good base to be doing that from including 428 00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:09,080 Speaker 2: the US economy is much bigger and can off forward 429 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 2: that kind of investment. It also has a strategic imperative, 430 00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:18,720 Speaker 2: which is as a strong global presence. The US felt 431 00:24:18,720 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 2: that it was strategically important not only for itself, but 432 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,160 Speaker 2: for all its allies, for the rest of NATO, and 433 00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:30,159 Speaker 2: for its friendly nations, which includes US. So to some extent, 434 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 2: we get to ride on the coattails of that American investment, 435 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 2: that American expertise, and that American ambition as the US 436 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:43,439 Speaker 2: rebuilds and on shores that manufacturing through its investment in Intel, Anti, 437 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 2: SMC and others in order to make sure that there's 438 00:24:46,520 --> 00:24:49,400 Speaker 2: lots of manufacturing. And as you know, there are multiple 439 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:53,320 Speaker 2: manufacturing plants being built across the United States in Arizona, 440 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 2: in Oregon, in many parts of the US and We'll 441 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,560 Speaker 2: see more of that happen over the next few years 442 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 2: because of the approach that the US government is taking, 443 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 2: and the great thing for US is that means we 444 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:06,440 Speaker 2: don't have to. 445 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,360 Speaker 1: The US has those same challenges you outline for Britain though, 446 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: in terms of is the workforce prepared enough for this 447 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:15,920 Speaker 1: type of advanced manufacturing and is the immigration system flexible 448 00:25:16,000 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: enough to allow the people who can do a great 449 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 1: job of that to come in. I mean the images 450 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,320 Speaker 1: of the Hundai plant are unforgettable. 451 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, I mean I answer where your question is 452 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,920 Speaker 2: coming from. I don't believe this applies to the semiconductor industry. 453 00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:33,520 Speaker 2: We have been producing leading edge chips in the US 454 00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 2: for generations. You have to go and visit Arizona and 455 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,920 Speaker 2: you see the long line of plants that Intel has 456 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 2: their multiple generations, huge numbers of people that have been employed, 457 00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 2: very skilled operators that are expertise in manufacturing. You go 458 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,119 Speaker 2: down the road, you see the same thing at TSMC, 459 00:25:52,600 --> 00:25:56,080 Speaker 2: so that is already there. It's already present. Yes. Sure, 460 00:25:56,200 --> 00:26:02,640 Speaker 2: the US may have more stringent requirements on environmental regulations 461 00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 2: on where you place those plants. It may not have 462 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:09,600 Speaker 2: the same sort of openness to immigration that it once did. 463 00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 2: But there are plenty of people in the US. There 464 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:14,760 Speaker 2: are plenty of high paid jobs, and it's the sort 465 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:17,159 Speaker 2: of jobs that many many people are trained for in 466 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 2: the US way more than they are here in the UK. 467 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 2: So actually very confident that the US is in a 468 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 2: very good position to be able to rebuild its manufacturing strength. 469 00:26:25,480 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 2: I think it's a long long way down that path already. 470 00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,400 Speaker 1: Just to close. I mean, it sometimes seems like there's 471 00:26:31,400 --> 00:26:36,000 Speaker 1: this kind of new statism emerging where you know, in 472 00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,600 Speaker 1: the past, people in the US or the UK would 473 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: look at China and say, there are these state and 474 00:26:41,080 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 1: enterprises and the private companies are very subject to the 475 00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:48,280 Speaker 1: demands of the Communist party, and that's one approach to 476 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: technological buildout. We in the West have a completely different one, 477 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,240 Speaker 1: which is all to do with private markets, and it 478 00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 1: seems to the market and the role of government, you know, 479 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:03,160 Speaker 1: should not really interfere in the technological innovation and build 480 00:27:03,200 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: out process. It seems like of the course of a 481 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:11,600 Speaker 1: very short period of time that's completely changed. So how 482 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:15,159 Speaker 1: would you describe this new paradigm that's emerging in What 483 00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:16,600 Speaker 1: are the risks and what are the benefits? 484 00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 2: Of it. So I actually want to push back on 485 00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:21,360 Speaker 2: the premise. I think the posters that say that that's 486 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 2: how the US operates and not really telling the truth. 487 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,800 Speaker 2: The US has been a major investor in R and 488 00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:31,320 Speaker 2: D manufacturing over a very long period. Yes, of course, 489 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 2: not the same way as China, very different approach, but 490 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 2: in terms of investing heavily, this has been the history 491 00:27:37,200 --> 00:27:40,680 Speaker 2: of the success of the United States, whether it's through 492 00:27:41,320 --> 00:27:45,080 Speaker 2: funding into research from the National Science Foundation, National Institute 493 00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:48,240 Speaker 2: of Health, from DAPER, etc. All the way through to 494 00:27:48,480 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 2: government investment. So yes, sure, free market capitalism and capital 495 00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:57,919 Speaker 2: investment is a very important part of the process, but 496 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:00,360 Speaker 2: generally that comes along later when you started to see 497 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,480 Speaker 2: the success. We should always be looking to see whether 498 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 2: we should make an investment in order to be able 499 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 2: to get that edge. The whole world economy today runs 500 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,880 Speaker 2: on chips, not just AI. Just to remember what happened 501 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,560 Speaker 2: during the pandemic when there was a shortage of chips. 502 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:21,560 Speaker 2: The automotive industry, worried about the economic downturn during the pandemic, 503 00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 2: said we don't need to buy the chips, okay, So 504 00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 2: the chip companies turned around and sold the ball to 505 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 2: the data center companies that were growing. The automotive companies 506 00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 2: came back a few months later and said, oh, turns 507 00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 2: out there's an uptick in the economy and people are 508 00:28:34,520 --> 00:28:37,400 Speaker 2: buying cars again. Chip companies said, sorry, we've just sold 509 00:28:37,400 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 2: all those chips to others. You're out of luck, and 510 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 2: there was a catastrophic effect on the world market. I 511 00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 2: joined Intel as an executive running the network and communications 512 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,440 Speaker 2: business in twenty twenty one in the middle of the pandemic, 513 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 2: and I saw this firsthand as companies were duking it 514 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,160 Speaker 2: out for access to chips. It was a very stressful time, 515 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,360 Speaker 2: so we could see how important it is to the 516 00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:07,479 Speaker 2: underpinnings of the world economy, which is why everybody should 517 00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:13,000 Speaker 2: be worried about China's ambitions for retaking Taiwan and reintegrating Taiwan. 518 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 2: The risk there of it disrupting the foundation of the 519 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 2: world economy are very real, are very palpable, and so 520 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,840 Speaker 2: it makes sense for the US to be leading the 521 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 2: charge and trying to rebuild that semiconductor manufacturing capability on 522 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 2: its own territory. It's not specific to this particular administration. 523 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 2: Is the need that will live throughout multiple administrations. I believe. 524 00:29:36,840 --> 00:29:38,720 Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Nick every appreciding the time. 525 00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 2: Oh thank You've been really enjoyable. 526 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:00,800 Speaker 4: That's it for this week for tech Stuff. 527 00:30:00,880 --> 00:30:03,640 Speaker 1: I'm Kara Price and I'm os Valanschan. This episode was 528 00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:07,440 Speaker 1: produced by Eliza Dennis, Tyler Hill and Melissa Slaughter. It 529 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: was executive produced by me, Kara Price, Julian Nutter, and 530 00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: Kate Osborne for Kaleidoscope and Katria Norvel for iHeart Podcasts. 531 00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,480 Speaker 1: Jack Insley mixed this episode and Kyle Murdoch wrote. 532 00:30:18,320 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 3: Our theme song. Join us on Friday for the Week 533 00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 3: in Tech, where we run through the tech headlines you 534 00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:23,160 Speaker 3: need to know. 535 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: And please do rate and review the show and reach 536 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 1: out to us at tech Stuff podcast at gmail dot com. 537 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:30,000 Speaker 1: We love hearing from you.