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Speaker 1: Also media. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted

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Speaker 1: to let you know this is a compilation episode. So

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Speaker 1: every episode of the week that just happened is here

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Speaker 1: in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package for

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Speaker 1: you to listen to in a long stretch if you want.

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Speaker 1: If you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be nothing new here for you, but

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Speaker 1: you can make your own decisions.

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Speaker 2: Recording in progress. Okay, check this out now. I have

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Speaker 2: always been amazed by when I take a second to

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Speaker 2: actually tap into like my actual network of just friends.

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Speaker 3: You know, you have friends in categories.

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Speaker 4: You have to say it like it's just like this, yeah,

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Speaker 4: you always like you just don't really picture those things

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Speaker 4: colliding or when like your friends like meet each other

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Speaker 4: and turns out they know each other.

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Speaker 3: It's the weirdest thing anyway for me and my like.

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Speaker 2: Podcast activists, you know activism world, you know a lot

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Speaker 2: of times overlast with the hip hop world because you know,

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Speaker 2: we believe with a lot of same stuff. But like

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Speaker 2: this one like really happened where I was just like

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Speaker 2: in my own network somebody I've known for a while

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Speaker 2: who I'm just now learning your name is Tristan.

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Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah, I didn't know your name was Jason. Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying. That's how wrap works. So

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Speaker 2: introduce yourself however you want to be introduced. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 2: and then let's let's get into it.

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Speaker 6: Hey, everybody, I'm a Tangent Wiggy aka Tristan Hacker. I

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Speaker 6: got a lot of other names too, but I'll keep

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Speaker 6: it to those for now. And I'm from sam Barnardino

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Speaker 6: and I'm an artist in the community with the with

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Speaker 6: propaganda as well as a state employee. I paid disability

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Speaker 6: claims for the state of California. And in my role

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Speaker 6: as a state employee, I am a union rep. And

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Speaker 6: I'm an elected member of my union's executive board. So

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Speaker 6: I represent state employees from Ontario Region, the Sam Bonardino

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Speaker 6: region and in between. And I'm on the bargaining team,

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Speaker 6: so I go up to second MENTO and help prepare

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Speaker 6: for bargaining against Governor newsm of his team as well.

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Speaker 3: Words.

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Speaker 2: So this is like we're this is frontline energy, okay,

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Speaker 2: which I love about it because it's like like you said,

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Speaker 2: like your your day job is. In some ways it's

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Speaker 2: it's so crazy because it's like as far away as

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Speaker 2: that is from the actual like worker per se like

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Speaker 2: you have just this parasocial, like intimate relationship with everybody

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Speaker 2: that works for the state because like you seeing you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm saying what they're going through and how great it

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Speaker 2: is to think inside of such a hero a bureaucracy,

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Speaker 2: there's somebody there that's like, no, I'm actually like fighting

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Speaker 2: for y'all.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I appreciate that word. So first of all, tell

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Speaker 3: them what the union is.

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Speaker 5: Which union were talking about?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, S isn't sam e is in everybody I is

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Speaker 6: an incredible you as in Union Service Employees International Union,

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Speaker 6: but one thousand, right, So s EIU is one of

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Speaker 6: the biggest international unions in the world. And and everyone

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Speaker 6: out there has probably seen the purple purple SEIU stuff

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Speaker 6: on all kinds of stuff, from nurses to state workers

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Speaker 6: to in home support services workers and home care nurses.

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Speaker 5: And there's a.

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Speaker 6: Lot of different people that are under SEIU. More broadly,

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Speaker 6: state employees in California are SEIU one thousand, So we're

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Speaker 6: Local one thousand, and that's the broader union that I'm a.

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Speaker 3: Part of all of Cali.

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Speaker 6: Okay, you know, all all hundred thousands state employees that

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Speaker 6: are represented.

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Speaker 7: Damn.

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Speaker 6: Okay, and but I am elected to the executive board

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Speaker 6: of DLC seven O four, which is the Inland Empire,

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Speaker 6: well the Ontario Samarrardino part of the Inland Empire's chapter.

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Speaker 2: Where Ontario Samarandino. Okay, this is going to be very

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Speaker 2: Cali specific. Like obviously this everybody here who listens ain't

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Speaker 2: from here. So like I've I've cracked many LA and

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Speaker 2: I E jokes and just like you know throughout throughout

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Speaker 2: our time.

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Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 2: I like to say that I have an IE passport

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Speaker 2: stamped like I have my.

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Speaker 3: I worked in Pomona. See I didn't, I never lived there.

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Speaker 5: Okay, but you mean what I'm saying.

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Speaker 6: So my strong connection to Pomona as far as I've

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Speaker 6: seen I've seen you.

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Speaker 2: You absolutely That's what I mean. Like I'm a naturalized citizen.

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Speaker 2: I got a green card. I got an I E

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Speaker 2: Green card because like I worked at Pomona. You know,

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Speaker 2: foundation was in Pomona. My condemn Lights was in Pomona.

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Speaker 2: For y'all listeners, these are like the hip hop and

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Speaker 2: poetry spots that I kind of grew up there because

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Speaker 2: since I'm you know, born in South Central, but I'm

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Speaker 2: from the six to six, so you come me coming

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Speaker 2: from La Penteve Linda Pomono was just so much more

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Speaker 2: closer than La Merk Park, you know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 7: So yeah, so I.

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Speaker 3: Ended up just kind of like spending a lot of

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Speaker 3: time there.

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Speaker 2: And then for high school, I got I got busted

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Speaker 2: to the Inland Empire, so I got bussed. I went

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Speaker 2: to school out of district because my parents split up.

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Speaker 2: It's a long story, but anyway.

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Speaker 5: It happens a lot. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So that being said, like I have a lot of

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Speaker 2: love for the Inland Empire and spent a lot of

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Speaker 2: time there, you know what I'm saying. So that's what

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Speaker 2: I was like, I got, I got a visa, I

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Speaker 2: got a I E visa.

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Speaker 5: Yeah absolutely, yeah.

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Speaker 2: But that being said, what would you say, I mean,

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Speaker 2: if it's kind of like I'm kind of springing this

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Speaker 2: one on you, but like what would you say would

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Speaker 2: be something that's like unique, a unique thing that someone

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Speaker 2: from where you guys are at, like a service worker

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Speaker 2: where you guys are at, it might be a unique

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Speaker 2: issue that's specific to them that wouldn't be somewhere else.

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Speaker 5: I'll do two because I feel like I need two

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Speaker 5: to kind of to answer it. Well.

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Speaker 6: One is that the Inland Empire in Highland, which is

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Speaker 6: a city kind of a little connected city to Sam Maerdino,

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Speaker 6: Highland has patent state hospital which is basically Arkham Asylum.

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Speaker 6: You know, it's basically Arkham Asylum from the Batman comics,

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Speaker 6: which is it's a hospital for the criminally insane. Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 6: you know it's like like in other words, like you've

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Speaker 6: committed crimes, but you have mental health issues. Yeah, so

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Speaker 6: you're not in the regular prison, but you're not in

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Speaker 6: the regular mental hospital. You are in the prison for

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Speaker 6: the mental papers. And it's a massive twenty four hour facility.

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Speaker 6: And I feel like, even though I work for DED

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Speaker 6: doing disability claims, because I'm in a regional chapter with

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Speaker 6: the past in state hospital folks, they get a lot

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Speaker 6: of the attention of what the union organization does because

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Speaker 6: twenty four hour facilities are very, very taxing, and they're

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Speaker 6: very right for abuse and for people to go through

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Speaker 6: really difficult things work. And then the second thing I

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Speaker 6: would say would be the fact that where we are,

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Speaker 6: we have a lot of we service a lot that

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Speaker 6: maybe more of my job, right, we service a lot

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Speaker 6: of undocumented people, Like a lot of the disability claims

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Speaker 6: I pay for the state I paid undocumented folks. So

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Speaker 6: which is one reason that the eye stuff has been

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Speaker 6: hitting so close to home. And also people may now

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Speaker 6: realize that California doesn't regulate about documented status the way

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Speaker 6: that the federal government does. Right, so, as long as

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Speaker 6: you could prove your wages to the State of California

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Speaker 6: in a legit, straight paper work kind of way, we

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Speaker 6: don't care that you're undocumented.

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Speaker 5: We're going to pay you because you're a worker and

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Speaker 5: you need our services.

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Speaker 2: Facts, And like, I love that you said that, because

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Speaker 2: when they talk about like how the undocumented don't pay taxes,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, yes they.

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Speaker 5: Do, Yes, they do, Yes, they do, Yes, they pay

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Speaker 5: a lot.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if you can think of just off the head,

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Speaker 2: Like obviously over the years, the negotiations, different things that

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Speaker 2: have come up varied over time. We'll get to the

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Speaker 2: ice raids, because that's obviously where everything got super ratchet up,

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Speaker 2: ratcheted up, But like what was some of the most

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Speaker 2: like I don't like, I don't know how would I

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Speaker 2: phrase this where you were like, this is the most

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Speaker 2: reasonable request we can ask for, Like this is just

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Speaker 2: like I don't this is so I don't understand why

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Speaker 2: this is so hard for y'all. Like this is incredibly

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Speaker 2: I just want to like calibrate because a lot of

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Speaker 2: times people here, they here to wear a union. They

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Speaker 2: got all these pictures about what the things are and

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Speaker 2: what this you know what I'm saying. They got all

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Speaker 2: these pictures. But I'm just like, fam, you ever heard

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Speaker 2: of a five day week work week? That's unions, my gi,

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Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying. So like that seems very reasonable,

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean. So, so if you could

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Speaker 2: think of like some of the things you've had to negotiaate,

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Speaker 2: what was some of the most Like this is, I

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Speaker 2: don't understand why this is so hard for y'all.

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Speaker 6: So have you ever heard, you ebably heard the phrase

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Speaker 6: every crisis is an opportunity? Right, Yes, you've heard people

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Speaker 6: say that, right. So, my union and other unions have

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Speaker 6: been pushing for telework. You know, in my entire twenty

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Speaker 6: years with the state, I'll be seventeen years veteran with

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Speaker 6: the state as of December, right, Wow.

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Speaker 5: The entire time we wanted telework.

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Speaker 6: It took the quarantine crisis of twenty twenty twenty twenty

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Speaker 6: one to actually get the state to agree to mass

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Speaker 6: implement telework, and so that was like, that's a crisis

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Speaker 6: that we made an opportunity.

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Speaker 5: That's like, hey, we needed telework.

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Speaker 6: So many people are also caring for their kids, are

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Speaker 6: also caring for their elderly people in their home, caring

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Speaker 6: for a new baby, or you know, take you know,

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Speaker 6: just at the house so that contractors could come fixed

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Speaker 6: their plumbing. You know. It's like like tell of work

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Speaker 6: has been something that we thought was very reasonable for

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Speaker 6: a long time, that it took it took until the

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Speaker 6: COVID crisis for us to get telework. And we feel

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Speaker 6: like we're pioneers that in a workforce way, because now

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Speaker 6: there's lots of places that have telework, partly because I

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Speaker 6: think the work that unions like us.

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Speaker 5: Have done that's dope, man.

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Speaker 2: You know, obviously coming out of the pandemic and recently

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Speaker 2: like a lot of companies are like, hey, you guys

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Speaker 2: can come back to the office and people are like

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Speaker 2: absolutely not, Wow, Like why take it away?

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Speaker 5: Are you taking away unless you got it?

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Speaker 8: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, why would we do that.

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Speaker 2: I know my own Like my wife, you know, she

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Speaker 2: pre pandemic at the spot she was working. As she

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Speaker 2: was working at a nonprofit. You know, she was like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: I was touring so much, and she was just like, dude,

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Speaker 2: like you want me in this office at a certain time.

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Speaker 2: It's stressed on the whole family to get my daughter

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Speaker 2: to school. It's you know, just breaking her neck to

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Speaker 2: figure stuff out. She's like, I'm done with the stuff

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Speaker 2: that can be done at a desk within an hour.

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Speaker 2: She's like, I'm just I'm just scrolling the internet. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: Like I'm just like like I'm trying to.

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Speaker 6: Tell you you're paying for lights, you're paying for.

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Speaker 5: You're paying for audi.

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Speaker 2: There's no reason, like I don't have to be here,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 3: And so she pushed.

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Speaker 2: She was just like, you know, looked up her own rights,

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Speaker 2: you know, figured it out and you know, without telling

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Speaker 2: her business. She uh, she actually helped the staff unionize there,

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Speaker 2: Like you know what I'm saying. She was like, look, man,

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Speaker 2: it's ridiculous. You know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 9: You got a real one, Yeah, don't don't don't google

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Speaker 9: it anyway.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, so something that you had to you know,

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Speaker 2: you said, you actually go to the state, you you

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Speaker 2: interact with Gavin Newsom, you know, which is the whole thing.

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Speaker 2: Sure we have our opinions on mister Newsom, Sure you know,

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Speaker 2: and like how allied are you as an ally? Like

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Speaker 2: you say, and you know if you were complicated. We

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Speaker 2: can't always agree on the same things, you know what

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Speaker 2: I'm saying, Like, but like that's correct. There's been there

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Speaker 2: have been times where it's been like, hey, you know what, Sue.

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Speaker 6: He's doing something dope, and then other times when he's not, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Doing something dope. The other times it's like, bro, who

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Speaker 3: are you?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, right, like what is happening right now?

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Speaker 2: So so obviously you know when you go up there,

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Speaker 2: you're you're not interacting with him, You're interacting with his team, right.

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Speaker 10: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: The one time I actually met him, I went to

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Speaker 6: the California Democratic Party convention and shoot some twelve in

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Speaker 6: San Diego, and I just went with a friend, just

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Speaker 6: showed up.

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Speaker 5: I was not a delegate. I was a union riff already,

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Speaker 5: but I had no official role.

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Speaker 6: I just showed up and walked around the San Diego Hilton,

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Speaker 6: which is also where they founded San Diego Comic Con yeah,

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Speaker 6: and uh.

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Speaker 5: And I got to meet a lot of.

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Speaker 6: Officials, including some inland ones, including some really famous people

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Speaker 6: like Nancy Pelosi's daughter. But I went up to I

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Speaker 6: went up to at the time Lieutenant governor knew him

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Speaker 6: and basically thanked him because he had just voted against

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Speaker 6: the tuition hype for the Cal States and UC.

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Speaker 5: And I was and I went to cal say Samary.

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Speaker 6: Know, I have my master's in poetry by MFA and

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Speaker 6: poetry from Cal say Samardino. And so I was still

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Speaker 6: a student at the time, and he had just voted

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Speaker 6: against a tuition increase.

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Speaker 5: So there's a picture of me meeting him from that

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Speaker 5: from that time. That's all. That's great.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, so that and he had just done something good

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Speaker 6: and he and he said humble things about it when

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Speaker 6: I thanked him for it. So my one personal interaction

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Speaker 6: with him was good. But since then, when in the

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Speaker 6: capacity of the union, I deal with his bargaining team,

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Speaker 6: like my our bargaining team deals with his bargaining team Instacramento.

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Speaker 2: Were okay, so give me one something that's been like

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Speaker 2: that were what they were asking for. Yeah, it was

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Speaker 2: like this is completely unreasonable, guys, Like what are you talking.

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Speaker 6: So every three years, every three years, our state employee

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Speaker 6: contract goes up, uh huh, right, And so around the

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Speaker 6: two year mark, we start gearing up negotiations, you know,

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Speaker 6: and the state Newsome has the power to summon us

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Speaker 6: for negotiation, and we have the power to summon his.

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Speaker 5: Team for negotiation.

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Speaker 6: Right, So at that two year mark we start negotiating.

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Speaker 6: So in twenty twenty two, we started negotiating about the

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Speaker 6: twenty twenty three expiring, you know, so that by the

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Speaker 6: end of twenty three we could have a new contract.

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Speaker 5: When your state employee, it's difficult.

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Speaker 6: It's hard to strike, right, Like, you have to have

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Speaker 6: an extremely high threshold to strike. Like if you're a

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Speaker 6: a a private company in you're union, it's a lot

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Speaker 6: easier to strike. You guys all want to strike, you

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Speaker 6: strike Like episode of the Simpsons, temer became the union.

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Speaker 6: They're just like devil plan, you know, and they started

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Speaker 6: striking right right with the state. Because we provide essential

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Speaker 6: services to Californians in need, it is an extremely high

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Speaker 6: threshold in terms of what it would take for us

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Speaker 6: to legally be allowed to strike, right And Newsome and

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Speaker 6: his team know that, so they could kind of like

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Speaker 6: really slow walk negotiations and stop negotiating in good faith.

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Speaker 6: But as long as there's like you know what, there's

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Speaker 6: signs of life on the hospital tickers the negotiations, then

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Speaker 6: they're stick. We're still obligated to not strike damn right.

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Speaker 6: So in twenty twenty three our contract expired, Newsom was

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Speaker 6: offering us one or two percent raised for the next

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Speaker 6: three years, and meanwhile he was going on TV saying, oh,

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Speaker 6: debate Ron DeSantis, Oh during that time, I want to

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Speaker 6: help the screen Actors Guild finish their contract and the

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Speaker 6: Screenwriters Guild, and I want to So it's like, well,

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Speaker 6: whoa bro, where are your kids?

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Speaker 5: Why are you trying to go help their kids?

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Speaker 10: Yeah, you know, it.

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Speaker 6: Was like, why you're not negotiating with us, but you're

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Speaker 6: on TV talking about I want to help Harrison Ford

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Speaker 6: and I want to help, you know, I want to

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Speaker 6: help the actors get their contract. And it's like, so

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Speaker 6: I had something I made a TikTok recently about how

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Speaker 6: I think my lefty friends, and I'm lefty to help,

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Speaker 6: of course, but like artist friends, anti establishment friends, you know,

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Speaker 6: leftist friends, I think hate democrats in stupid ways, whereas

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Speaker 6: there are smart ways to hate Democrats right, Like, to me,

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Speaker 6: the stupid the stupid way to hate Democrats is to

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Speaker 6: be like, oh, both parties are the same. I'm going

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Speaker 6: to sit out and let Republicans win and hurt us worse. Right,

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Speaker 6: to me, the smart way to hate on Democrats is

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Speaker 6: to realize when they're doing a good thing here, they're

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Speaker 6: distracting you from a bad thing here.

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Speaker 5: And then they're doing a bad thing here they're distracting

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Speaker 5: you. You know, it's like a good things right.

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Speaker 6: So, like Newsome at times might be capitulating to Trump

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Speaker 6: on something federally, but then he does something good state

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Speaker 6: domestically in the state.

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Speaker 5: To kind of keep his rep up. Or the reverse.

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Speaker 6: Maybe he's fighting with Trump on something and that's good,

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Speaker 6: but he's doing some wax shit like slow walking our contracts. Yeah,

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Speaker 6: we're not Hollywood actors, right, so when our contract goes up,

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Speaker 6: you didn't get the news about it, like with the

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Speaker 6: Screen Actors Guild, because that's slapping your Hulu, that's stopping

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Speaker 6: your Disney.

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Speaker 5: Plus, you know you hear all about that.

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Speaker 6: When our contract expires, you don't hear about it unless

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Speaker 6: you're on disability.

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Speaker 5: Unless you're on one of our programs and then.

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Speaker 6: You can't go to the office because because we're understaffed

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Speaker 6: or because something's going wrong with us. Right, So twenty

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Speaker 6: twenty three was a pissed off time for us because

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Speaker 6: he's offering us peanuts. He is offering to help everybody else.

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Speaker 6: Let me help that actors, let me help the screenwriters.

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Speaker 6: Let me fight Ron DeSantis. Let me go go to

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Speaker 6: Washington and have federal fights. Meanwhile, we're our contract expired.

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Speaker 6: And when our contract expired, there's things we lose. There's

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Speaker 6: stuck things we lose, there's benefits we lose. And he

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Speaker 6: just so he had us, had.

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Speaker 5: Us in a bind.

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Speaker 6: So I organized a work site picket at my office

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Speaker 6: in San Bernardino one hundred and two degree weather.

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Speaker 5: We can't strike, but we can picket.

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Speaker 11: Wow.

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Speaker 3: Okay, see I didn't know that.

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Speaker 6: You know.

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Speaker 5: So that's part of being a union rep is like

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Speaker 5: what are my tools?

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Speaker 8: You know?

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Speaker 5: Like what are my tools?

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Speaker 6: Like you know your arsenal, know your weaponry? Right, And

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Speaker 6: so I organized a picket. We had signs me and

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Speaker 6: and I'm just I tear up and I think about

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Speaker 6: this because I had coworkers, but I didn't think we're

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Speaker 6: going to march in the heat with me.

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Speaker 5: I thought it might have been me by myself. You know.

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Speaker 6: I was one of only one or two union reps

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Speaker 6: in my office at the time. Now we have four

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Speaker 6: because I've been recruiting, you know, and I have good

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Speaker 6: people in my office, you know.

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Speaker 5: But at the time, I was one of the only

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Speaker 5: union reps.

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Speaker 6: There's people who I knew had legitis get the system

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Speaker 6: about the union. I didn't expect it. But every single lunch,

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Speaker 6: not just my lunch, at every lunch, we had people

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Speaker 6: picketing in front of my office with signs. People were

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Speaker 6: honking in support of us. Within a month or two,

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Speaker 6: we got an eight percent raise on that next negotiation.

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Speaker 7: Let's go, you know.

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Speaker 6: And so you know, when we fight, we went. When

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Speaker 6: we unite, we win, you know, like you don't. We're

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Speaker 6: not fighting for nothing. And and and that was a

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Speaker 6: duor die moment for me as a union organizer. Because

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Speaker 6: I hadn't had many real fights yet, and I had

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Speaker 6: I couldn't really point to my co workers and say, hey,

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Speaker 6: we did this and got this.

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Speaker 5: We did this and got this.

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Speaker 6: So the fact that I got my co workers to

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Speaker 6: march in one hundred two degree whether with me instead

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Speaker 6: of just sitting in the air condition having lunch, and

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Speaker 6: that we won that.

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Speaker 5: A few weeks later, they said, you're gonna get a

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Speaker 5: eight percent rais.

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Speaker 6: Now that's hard, you know, Like I was like, yes,

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Speaker 6: like proof of concept.

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Speaker 5: I have proof of concept. I'm not just wasting my

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Speaker 5: co workers time.

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Speaker 6: I could tell you there's a tangible result to when

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Speaker 6: we organized together.

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Speaker 2: See, that's these are the type of like wins we

403
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Speaker 2: need to hear. Yes, we've been, we've been taking them

404
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Speaker 2: mails like yes, sir speaking to l so, y'all's y'all's

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Speaker 2: s CiU one thousand.

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Speaker 3: You know David ware though, right, that's his.

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Speaker 12: Name, m hm.

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Speaker 6: David Wareth is from one of the California s CiU branches.

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Speaker 6: He's tightly connected to our union. But he's not one.

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Speaker 5: He's not one thousand, okay where, but he is CiU

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Speaker 5: so he is part of us.

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Speaker 12: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So when Ice, you know, invaded our streets, yes, he

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Speaker 2: was outside, you know, doing what he had to do.

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Speaker 2: I know SCIU set up the thing at Alvera Street. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: they set up a location there for like to educate.

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Speaker 2: It was just such a beautiful thing. But the first

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Speaker 2: thing that got me out. The house was the rally

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Speaker 2: for when he was detained, So like, man, tell me

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Speaker 2: what was going on, and as much as you can

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Speaker 2: behind closed doors. So most of the listeners here know

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Speaker 2: this story because this show is like pretty tapped in.

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Speaker 6: But yeah, right, So what I would say is this

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Speaker 6: to me an opportunity to talk about like the cultural

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Speaker 6: differences with Inland and la right, because the Union is

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Speaker 6: very progressive, right, but the Inland is a much more

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Speaker 6: conservative area, right. And compared to Los Angeles, compared to

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Speaker 6: San Francisco, compared to you know, it's not as big

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Speaker 6: of a city.

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Speaker 5: It's more impoverished.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, you know, there's a lot of you know, even

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Speaker 6: just the geography of it, right, people grew up in

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Speaker 6: the city, like my mom grew up aroundhere.

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Speaker 5: You're trying about day and a monthday.

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Speaker 6: I was born in a Monthay, But there was a

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Speaker 6: suburban exodus in the late eighties of like people who

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Speaker 6: wanted to go from that east of late six to

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Speaker 6: six area to raise their kids in the Inland because

439
00:18:09,760 --> 00:18:11,000
Speaker 6: that was the more conservative suburbs.

440
00:18:11,160 --> 00:18:11,360
Speaker 10: Right.

441
00:18:11,600 --> 00:18:14,000
Speaker 6: So for me, every time something like that happens with

442
00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:15,720
Speaker 6: something like a David Watar or something in one of

443
00:18:15,760 --> 00:18:18,080
Speaker 6: the bigger cities happens, and we're fighting with the right

444
00:18:18,119 --> 00:18:20,760
Speaker 6: wing about things. It's a matter of me educating my

445
00:18:20,800 --> 00:18:22,120
Speaker 6: inland people about why we care.

446
00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,400
Speaker 5: And while we're all come okay, you know, and then there's.

447
00:18:25,240 --> 00:18:27,159
Speaker 6: Always some people and I got to respect us as

448
00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:29,080
Speaker 6: a union organizer. I really have to be able to

449
00:18:29,080 --> 00:18:31,080
Speaker 6: talk with my more conservative members because there are people

450
00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:34,040
Speaker 6: in the union that are not super progressive warriors like me.

451
00:18:34,119 --> 00:18:36,720
Speaker 6: They're just workers who want to be represented.

452
00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:36,919
Speaker 13: Right.

453
00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:38,960
Speaker 2: I was gonna say, that's actually a good point to

454
00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,399
Speaker 2: hammer down because like last year, one of the shows

455
00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:46,280
Speaker 2: on our network covered a union strike at a I

456
00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,440
Speaker 2: want to say, it was like a metal plant in Alabama,

457
00:18:49,800 --> 00:18:51,080
Speaker 2: like in the sticks of Alabama.

458
00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:52,639
Speaker 3: These are good old boys from the South.

459
00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:56,080
Speaker 2: But one thing we can agree on me is like

460
00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,600
Speaker 2: pay me what I'm worth, Like YO say, Like, it just.

461
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:00,760
Speaker 3: Seems pretty simple to me.

462
00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:03,240
Speaker 2: I don't understand how you've got to be a progressive

463
00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,240
Speaker 2: to want to be paid what you worth, you know, So, sir, so,

464
00:19:06,280 --> 00:19:08,040
Speaker 2: I think that that's a good point to say that, Like,

465
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,760
Speaker 2: even in a rather conservative place, all of us want

466
00:19:10,760 --> 00:19:13,240
Speaker 2: to go home and eat, you know, and earn the

467
00:19:13,280 --> 00:19:15,960
Speaker 2: wages that I that I should be pay me what

468
00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,680
Speaker 2: I'm worth. It just it seemed that simple, exactly.

469
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:21,159
Speaker 6: And so so that's a tension that happens, right, and

470
00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:23,040
Speaker 6: this is kind this is probably a discussion that happens

471
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,399
Speaker 6: among a lot of progressive groups in general. That like,

472
00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:27,399
Speaker 6: there's people who want you to focus on your on

473
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,320
Speaker 6: your issue, but there's also people who recognize that we're

474
00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:34,040
Speaker 6: part of an interconnected society where it's like if the

475
00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:36,200
Speaker 6: immigrants are being harmed, then the laborers are being harmed,

476
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,239
Speaker 6: if the artists are being harmed, then the nurses are

477
00:19:38,240 --> 00:19:39,600
Speaker 6: being harmed, if the teachers, you know.

478
00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:41,359
Speaker 5: So there's always that divide.

479
00:19:41,359 --> 00:19:43,080
Speaker 6: But in the Inland, which is a more conservative area,

480
00:19:43,080 --> 00:19:45,199
Speaker 6: there's especially that divide between people who are like, I

481
00:19:45,200 --> 00:19:47,560
Speaker 6: don't want my union fighting about immigration and ice. I

482
00:19:47,600 --> 00:19:50,159
Speaker 6: don't want my union fighting about the environment. Wow, I

483
00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:52,080
Speaker 6: don't want the union fighting about LGBT. I just want

484
00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:53,760
Speaker 6: the union to fight for my rais. I want the

485
00:19:53,840 --> 00:19:55,840
Speaker 6: union to fight for my telework and that's all I

486
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:57,760
Speaker 6: want them to do. Right, So that's a that's a

487
00:19:57,760 --> 00:20:00,359
Speaker 6: big thing for me, is to kind of exlain to

488
00:20:00,359 --> 00:20:03,040
Speaker 6: people how no, given where the fighting for immigrant rights

489
00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,040
Speaker 6: is him fighting for you as a worker, okay, you know,

490
00:20:05,119 --> 00:20:07,000
Speaker 6: because if they came for then they could come for you,

491
00:20:07,000 --> 00:20:07,159
Speaker 6: you know.

492
00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:08,919
Speaker 5: So that's kind of how I see that.

493
00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:10,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, did you feel like it landed?

494
00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,639
Speaker 5: Well, it always does with some and it doesn't with some.

495
00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:16,560
Speaker 5: You know, I'll be honest with you.

496
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,879
Speaker 6: There are people who just left the union after the

497
00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:20,840
Speaker 6: Charlie Kirk killing.

498
00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:21,440
Speaker 5: Oh wow.

499
00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:24,359
Speaker 6: In my opinion, they're going to really weird logic jumps

500
00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:27,240
Speaker 6: when they're like, well, the union endors Kamala, and Kamala

501
00:20:27,280 --> 00:20:30,320
Speaker 6: has supporters that are happy about Charlie Kirk dines in

502
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:30,680
Speaker 6: the union.

503
00:20:30,800 --> 00:20:33,280
Speaker 5: Yeah, I'm like, uh so you don't want that raise.

504
00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:34,960
Speaker 3: You really ran string in that joint.

505
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:35,240
Speaker 5: You know.

506
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:38,400
Speaker 2: That is definitely the all way sunny in Philadelphia meme

507
00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,920
Speaker 2: of just you like tieing these strings together like brouh.

508
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:42,280
Speaker 3: I don't know what you're talking about.

509
00:20:42,880 --> 00:20:45,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, right, And so, to be honest, there's been some

510
00:20:45,640 --> 00:20:45,920
Speaker 5: of that.

511
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:48,040
Speaker 6: You know, I'll say this that Charlie Kirk gave us

512
00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,399
Speaker 6: more of that than that immigration stuff. But there's always

513
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:52,240
Speaker 6: those few whispers from a few people who are like

514
00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:54,800
Speaker 6: they're just not down with the broader cause.

515
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:56,680
Speaker 5: Those of us who are in the leadership of the union.

516
00:20:56,720 --> 00:20:58,960
Speaker 6: I think we have solidarity, you know, we have solidarity

517
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,080
Speaker 6: not just with other states workers, but with anyone who's

518
00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:03,640
Speaker 6: in any SAU Yeah, with Team Stirts, for anyone who's

519
00:21:03,640 --> 00:21:06,760
Speaker 6: in any union, and with Californians, anyone who is somebody

520
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:07,159
Speaker 6: who is in.

521
00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:08,679
Speaker 5: A vulnerable group, you know.

522
00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:10,800
Speaker 6: And so there's just always that difference of opinion. I

523
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,359
Speaker 6: would say, over let's say sixty percent hits in a

524
00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,600
Speaker 6: good way and in my area, because it's so conservative,

525
00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:16,440
Speaker 6: let's say forty percent.

526
00:21:16,440 --> 00:21:18,119
Speaker 5: It doesn't, you know in some way you work on.

527
00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:18,920
Speaker 5: That's interesting.

528
00:21:30,280 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 3: Okay.

529
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,040
Speaker 2: My last two questions would be this, like I'll give

530
00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:35,159
Speaker 2: them both, Like, so, what are y'all currently kind of

531
00:21:35,200 --> 00:21:38,919
Speaker 2: like pushing for. I'm assuming it has a lot to

532
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 2: do with immigration and ice rays and stuff, but also

533
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:44,560
Speaker 2: in what ways can we as just a broader community

534
00:21:44,920 --> 00:21:46,520
Speaker 2: help Well, how.

535
00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:46,879
Speaker 5: Do I put this?

536
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 6: So I work in downtown samur Dino, Okay, and my

537
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:52,720
Speaker 6: disability office is next to the Mexican Consulate.

538
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:53,560
Speaker 7: Let's go.

539
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:55,639
Speaker 2: First of all, we need to paint a picture of

540
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:59,040
Speaker 2: Sam Bernardino. I really feel like, yeah, for those that

541
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 2: don't know California, the nature of what Sam Bernardino is

542
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:06,879
Speaker 2: is a part of this story that you might be missing?

543
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:11,080
Speaker 2: First of all, like, Okay, all that you pictured, everything

544
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,919
Speaker 2: that everybody else pictures around what you thought Compton was

545
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 2: in the nineties, all the pictures.

546
00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 3: That you think.

547
00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:21,040
Speaker 2: YO said that, you go, oh, it's really Sam Bernardino,

548
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:24,840
Speaker 2: Like YO say, yeah, So, I mean, I'm trying to

549
00:22:24,880 --> 00:22:28,160
Speaker 2: say this in a way that's a descriptive and not derogatory,

550
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,320
Speaker 2: because obviously, like it's always KLi love for me and

551
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,399
Speaker 2: you know, I'll of course, but there is a certain

552
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 2: there's a certain part of Sam Bernardino that feels like

553
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 2: like just a spirit of like we just gave up

554
00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:45,080
Speaker 2: the walking dead, the walking Deat's exactly it. It feels

555
00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,520
Speaker 2: like a zombie land, like just this dark I remember

556
00:22:48,560 --> 00:22:50,920
Speaker 2: the Carousel mall, like you walk by that mall.

557
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:51,720
Speaker 5: It's eerie.

558
00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:55,080
Speaker 2: It just feels like when people talk about the Forgotten Man,

559
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:55,919
Speaker 2: the Forgotten America.

560
00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,919
Speaker 3: I'm like San Bernardino, like, yes, Winne gave up on.

561
00:23:00,520 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 7: Yeah.

562
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:03,080
Speaker 6: It has recently gone from two hundred and thirty thousand

563
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,919
Speaker 6: people to only two hundred thousand people. But also probably

564
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:07,360
Speaker 6: because a lot of people that left were the most

565
00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 6: impoverised people. Our poverty rate went from let's say, in

566
00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,879
Speaker 6: the post Bush Too recession, like twenty ten, we had

567
00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 6: a thirty percent poverty rate. We were the most impopulous

568
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 6: city in the state. We've gotten down to like seventeen

569
00:23:17,560 --> 00:23:19,960
Speaker 6: percent poverty, which is still bad. Yeah, you know, that's

570
00:23:19,960 --> 00:23:23,000
Speaker 6: still almost one one out of five people. What was

571
00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:25,680
Speaker 6: It's very diverse, I mean, and someone who pays anention

572
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,359
Speaker 6: in the politics, it has all the problems exactly like

573
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 6: you said, all the problems that people talk about when

574
00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,679
Speaker 6: they say the important problems. It's post industrial. There's gun violence,

575
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:34,880
Speaker 6: it's diverse, there's poverty. You know, there's environmental issues because

576
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 6: it's such a warehouse empire. Yeah, because it's such a

577
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:39,400
Speaker 6: you know, area of freight and warehouses.

578
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:40,960
Speaker 5: It's like the air quality is some of the worst

579
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:44,040
Speaker 5: in the state. Yeah, you know, we we have real problems.

580
00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 5: You know, we got real problems.

581
00:23:45,040 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 6: And in downtown downtown smer do you know, is a

582
00:23:46,760 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 6: lot of where the problems are. We want to get it,

583
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 6: like downtown Redlands and downtown Riverside and some of the

584
00:23:51,119 --> 00:23:52,000
Speaker 6: other NICs of downtowns.

585
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 5: But it's just not there yet.

586
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 6: And there are people absolutely working on that and like

587
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 6: there are a couple of alleyways in the city that

588
00:23:57,359 --> 00:24:00,359
Speaker 6: sounds so it sounds so humble, But we have a

589
00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 6: couple of alleyways in the city that got five hundred

590
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:04,439
Speaker 6: thousand dollars grants recently to kind of make them an

591
00:24:04,520 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 6: ARC's alleyway to kind of look like something more like

592
00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 6: the Claremont Village.

593
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:07,879
Speaker 3: Let's go, you know.

594
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 5: And so yeah, you know, and so we are always

595
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:11,159
Speaker 5: working on it.

596
00:24:11,200 --> 00:24:13,240
Speaker 6: And I will always you know, as somebody who founded

597
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 6: co founded the Inland Empire Music Award Show and other

598
00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:17,480
Speaker 6: platforms that I put on not just my art, but

599
00:24:17,520 --> 00:24:19,200
Speaker 6: I helped put on other artists in the Inland. I

600
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 6: will always tell you about the amazing tacology could get

601
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:23,920
Speaker 6: in my city, the amazing small businesses you could support

602
00:24:23,960 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 6: my city, the amazing art community, yeah, put on by

603
00:24:26,920 --> 00:24:29,400
Speaker 6: by my ogs like Judah one of Pomona, like Noah

604
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 6: James of the Inland and Lisa j and many.

605
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,639
Speaker 5: Others you know who helped build a really.

606
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 6: Beautiful ecosystem like there's there's please come to summer, you

607
00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:39,680
Speaker 6: know and hit me up and I'll take you to

608
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:41,119
Speaker 6: save beautiful sports of it, you know.

609
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,320
Speaker 5: But yes, it's it's rough to your point.

610
00:24:43,320 --> 00:24:44,640
Speaker 3: I know, I want you to get to the next thing.

611
00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 2: But to your point, that was the same as that

612
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,840
Speaker 2: picture of content to where it's like yes, like in

613
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 2: the sense that like we know it's dangerous, we know

614
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 2: there's poverty, we know there's that, but there's beauty here,

615
00:24:54,119 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 2: dope stuff you know, and let me come like and

616
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 2: again like just the hood rules where it's like, well

617
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,119
Speaker 2: you and me like, oh, you're good.

618
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:03,520
Speaker 5: You know what I'm saying, Like, you know.

619
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 2: And some of them may yeah, like we can, we

620
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 2: can definitely shine lights. Like I said, Like, you know,

621
00:25:09,640 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 2: I've talked about Noah James on this show.

622
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying. I've talked about Judo one.

623
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 2: You know that I talked about since here C four

624
00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:17,919
Speaker 2: like the people that like I came, I came up with,

625
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:18,600
Speaker 2: you know what I'm saying.

626
00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, the Inland Empire.

627
00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 2: A lot of the stuff that the nation attributes to

628
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 2: LA is really ie.

629
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying, Yes, sir, And we know,

630
00:25:28,359 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 3: like we know because they're not lying about it.

631
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,399
Speaker 2: We know that matter of fact, nobody has pride about

632
00:25:32,960 --> 00:25:34,240
Speaker 2: I he got pride boy.

633
00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,680
Speaker 5: Like they're like no, no, no, no, we are to Inland.

634
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:37,360
Speaker 3: And I love that about y'all.

635
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,560
Speaker 5: Anyway, I'm wearing my Jaden Daniels check it out.

636
00:25:39,640 --> 00:25:40,879
Speaker 3: Yup, yup, yop yup.

637
00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:43,040
Speaker 5: You know, yeah, because the I he got a hide,

638
00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 5: I gotta hides.

639
00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 2: So yeah, okay, So anyway, so your office is next

640
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 2: to the Mexican Consulate.

641
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 6: Mexican Consulate, right, and so I've actually spent my you know,

642
00:25:51,760 --> 00:25:53,840
Speaker 6: I've been at this office in Samuray, you know, since

643
00:25:53,880 --> 00:25:56,399
Speaker 6: twenty fourteen, and five years before that I worked in

644
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:57,160
Speaker 6: the Riverside office.

645
00:25:57,320 --> 00:25:58,920
Speaker 5: But I've been in my office in Chemuary No.

646
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,200
Speaker 6: Twenty fourteen, and I have gone to so many I've

647
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 6: infiltrated so many right wing protests that are in front

648
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:05,760
Speaker 6: of the Mexican Consulate.

649
00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 5: Yes, and like and like, so I'll go hang out

650
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:09,440
Speaker 5: with them. They're like, oh, what do you guys, what

651
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 5: are you guys doing?

652
00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,239
Speaker 6: And then I'll like take their markers, I'll take their

653
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:13,320
Speaker 6: posters and I'll just kind.

654
00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 5: Of be like, oh, yeah, maybe you have a point there.

655
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,560
Speaker 6: And then I'm like I'm in my office and then

656
00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 6: my secretary is, you know, the secretary of my office.

657
00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 5: Is like, oh, where did you get these markers? Loot.

658
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 6: I got you some mark because it's you know, and

659
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 6: so I'll infiltrate right wing protests. But but on the

660
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 6: flip side, lately, you know, Ice knows they could come

661
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:31,919
Speaker 6: to my corner. And my corner in downtown has the

662
00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:34,439
Speaker 6: Chase Bank, the Wells Fargo Bank, the Mexican Consulate, the

663
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 6: Disability Office, the old city Hall building, like it's like

664
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 6: the hub. It's one of the downtown hubs of the city.

665
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,360
Speaker 6: And Ice has been coming in snatching people up in front.

666
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:43,919
Speaker 5: Of my office. It happened.

667
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,760
Speaker 6: It's happened twice at least in the last month. And

668
00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:48,280
Speaker 6: one of the days that it happened, I was in

669
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,720
Speaker 6: the office. I called my congressman, I called the mayor.

670
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 6: I got all the local authorities involved. By the end

671
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 6: of the day, the horse mounted unit of my city's

672
00:26:56,520 --> 00:26:58,879
Speaker 6: police was like patrolling to make sure Ice wasn't messing

673
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,800
Speaker 6: with us. And tell you, homie, what a weird place

674
00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 6: this is. I've never been so happy to see the

675
00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:05,160
Speaker 6: regular cops right right right.

676
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 12: You know what is this?

677
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 14: What is this?

678
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:07,360
Speaker 7: Timeline?

679
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 12: Are you doing to me? What are you doing to me?

680
00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 6: We're like, I'm I'm in seven eleven six in the morning,

681
00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:14,720
Speaker 6: getting my getting my coffee, and I see regular cops.

682
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 6: I'm like, thank you sir for at least showing a warrant. Yeah, yeah, exact,

683
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 6: rest me, yeah exactly, you know, because Ice is doing

684
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:23,720
Speaker 6: none of that. None of that. They're not doing warrants

685
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 6: to do it. They took I want to cry.

686
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:26,439
Speaker 5: They did.

687
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 6: They pushed a wife out of the way. She's like,

688
00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 6: what are you doing. They took the husband, tossed him

689
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:32,760
Speaker 6: in the band and drove off. It all happened so

690
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 6: fast that no one was able to film it. Damn

691
00:27:35,160 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 6: you No, in this era, no one was able to

692
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 6: film it.

693
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:39,240
Speaker 5: And they know that. How that they're doing it that fast.

694
00:27:39,600 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 3: That's the trick. Yeah, that's the trick. That's what we've

695
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 3: been telling.

696
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:43,920
Speaker 2: Like a lot of people have asked me, just friends

697
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,320
Speaker 2: from out of town, like dude, has it has it

698
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 2: toned down? And I was like, no, it just went underground.

699
00:27:49,840 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 2: It's like they just they're a lot more sneaky now,

700
00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:54,200
Speaker 2: Like it's not this big.

701
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 3: Display of power.

702
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 2: It's more the sniper guerrilla warfare to where like you said,

703
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 2: you just getting your gas, I usally how your pumping gas?

704
00:28:01,880 --> 00:28:04,000
Speaker 2: And then somebody just and it's so fast I can't

705
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:05,800
Speaker 2: film it, you know what I'm saying. Yes, And the

706
00:28:05,840 --> 00:28:09,000
Speaker 2: hard part for me is like is to your point

707
00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,159
Speaker 2: to where it's like since you know, identifying yourself, like

708
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 2: you might not even be an ice agent.

709
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:14,919
Speaker 5: And that's a thing that happened.

710
00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 6: That's the thing that there are people who impersonate law

711
00:28:17,640 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 6: enforcement officers and go harassed people just on a racist basis. Yeah,

712
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:23,640
Speaker 6: you know, and and and it's arguable that the Trump

713
00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:25,200
Speaker 6: administration is empowering people like that.

714
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 5: M man. Yeah, so so yeah, it absolutely is happening.

715
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:33,480
Speaker 6: To be honest, my union, Uh, we're going to always

716
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 6: support the actions that are fighting back against it. But

717
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:37,760
Speaker 6: the but the only things that we really have jurisdiction

718
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 6: to actually fight.

719
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:41,840
Speaker 5: H is the labor related word, you know.

720
00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,360
Speaker 6: And so you know, we we actually just got telework

721
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,800
Speaker 6: extended in exchange for delaying our rais you know, because

722
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 6: the states really broke right now for a lot of reasons. Yeah,

723
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 6: we delayed for two years a raise that we were

724
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 6: about to get in July, so there were already a

725
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 6: couple of months past not having that raise. But in exchange,

726
00:28:57,720 --> 00:28:59,800
Speaker 6: we got our telework agreement extended for two years. So

727
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:02,800
Speaker 6: what I would tell people who want to get involved

728
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 6: is like, if you are in a workplace that has

729
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:08,160
Speaker 6: a union, get involved, you know, or if you had

730
00:29:08,160 --> 00:29:10,240
Speaker 6: someone in your life like me who does union stuff

731
00:29:10,240 --> 00:29:12,160
Speaker 6: outside of work, next time they invite you to a

732
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,040
Speaker 6: phone bank, or next time they invite you to an event,

733
00:29:14,360 --> 00:29:16,640
Speaker 6: go support because we're absolutely we were at the No

734
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,240
Speaker 6: Kings protest, we were at the anti Ice protest like

735
00:29:19,240 --> 00:29:22,120
Speaker 6: like like, we're in the unofficial capacity, we're we're gonna

736
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 6: do all those kind of things to.

737
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:26,760
Speaker 5: Support the broader community. And even though it's my union.

738
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,000
Speaker 6: For example, on Wednesdays we have a lot of our meetings,

739
00:29:29,280 --> 00:29:31,680
Speaker 6: we're doing a phone banking for Prop fifty right, which

740
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 6: is the whole redistrict, which gives us the power to

741
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:35,640
Speaker 6: take some seats away from the Republicans. I know there's

742
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 6: a lot of there's a debate to be had there,

743
00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 6: but ultimately it's us trying to take keep some power

744
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 6: away from the right wing. And you don't have to

745
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 6: be in my union to go to those phone banks

746
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:45,440
Speaker 6: if you want a phone bank to help Prop fifty

747
00:29:45,480 --> 00:29:47,440
Speaker 6: pass so we could take some Republican seats away from

748
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:48,800
Speaker 6: the federal House representatives.

749
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:49,600
Speaker 5: Hit me up.

750
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,400
Speaker 6: Hit up anybody you know in the Inland Empire chapter

751
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:54,120
Speaker 6: of SEIU, and we can bring you to a phone

752
00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 6: bank in Ontario and we'll get pizza or barbecue or whatever,

753
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 6: and we.

754
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 5: Could phone bank against these dang Republicans. Yeah, man, Man Tangent,

755
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 5: I appreciate this, man, I appreciate you.

756
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:03,479
Speaker 14: Man.

757
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 6: I've wanted to have wanted you to have me on I.

758
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:07,800
Speaker 6: I love your show and I love you man. I

759
00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 6: think you're such a cool dude.

760
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 5: I think wise.

761
00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 6: I think that you're engaging in the community in a

762
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 6: cool way. You're an artists I respect a lot, and

763
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 6: not just me. I mean people friends like Sincere, like

764
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 6: explain to me why you're significant to them and why

765
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 6: you're an influence and.

766
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 5: Stuff like that. So I appreciate even being on your radar. Brother, Man,

767
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:24,680
Speaker 5: stop it, stop it some more.

768
00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 3: I'm just kidding. My wife says that, okay, so perfect.

769
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 2: Well, then tell us how people need to hear your music,

770
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 2: how they can get in touch with you, how they

771
00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 2: can follow you.

772
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:34,200
Speaker 3: Give me all the links.

773
00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:37,120
Speaker 5: Oh yeah, yeah yeah, So T A n J I

774
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 5: n T is Tangent.

775
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 6: You know you can find me on everything on Twitter, Instagram,

776
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 6: you know Facebook, what was it The Inland Empire Music

777
00:30:45,400 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 6: Award show that I'm a co director and co founder of.

778
00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 6: Is that it's only Empire dot com. That's its only

779
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 6: Empire dot com. And also I want to encourage Inland

780
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,320
Speaker 6: Empire artists. You know, you still have from now to

781
00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 6: the end of September to submit to the award show.

782
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 5: And we've been doing it for three years. We partner

783
00:31:02,600 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 5: with nonprofits and businesses.

784
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,840
Speaker 6: We throw a dope ass it's pretty gala, you know,

785
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,600
Speaker 6: award show at a little art center in downtown sammer

786
00:31:09,640 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 6: Deane with the Garcia Center for the Arts. Or We

787
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,560
Speaker 6: give away real trophies and real awards and we have

788
00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:16,720
Speaker 6: red carpet media and performances. It's like it's like the

789
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 6: Grammys for the Inland Empire. So you know, please get

790
00:31:19,160 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 6: involved in It's only Empire dot com. That's only Empire now.

791
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 6: Famli Likely is my group with Diesel. We got a

792
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 6: new album out that's like scam likely on your phone,

793
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:28,600
Speaker 6: but fam Likely because it's likely that your family's hitting

794
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 6: you up.

795
00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:31,120
Speaker 5: Fam Likely. West Coast Avengers is.

796
00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 6: My first group, the more nerd core Inland Empire stuff,

797
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 6: and we got an album that came out just under

798
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 6: a year ago.

799
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 5: Now the Harvest. So I'm everywhere. You can catch everything

800
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,239
Speaker 5: all over the place. Yeah, yeah, tangent.

801
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 2: Wiggle, thank you so much, my brother, Hey, thank you

802
00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 2: man much love.

803
00:32:02,520 --> 00:32:05,560
Speaker 12: Welcome in to that and here a podcast about why

804
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:10,880
Speaker 12: everything feels absolutely awful and also deeply unhinged. I'm your

805
00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:16,120
Speaker 12: host Vi A long and oh boy, thing feel bad.

806
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 12: I don't know. This is my bost This is my

807
00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 12: most Robert a while with me to talk about why

808
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 12: everything sort of feels like this and the disconnect between

809
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 12: the fact that like everyone actually hates Trump and the

810
00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:38,200
Speaker 12: way that's being not covered and reflected in everything that

811
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 12: you interact with. Is Vicky Ostrowell, who is a writer

812
00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:44,520
Speaker 12: and editor at the collective journal Call You were of

813
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 12: many things agitated.

814
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:49,920
Speaker 15: I'm very busy, I.

815
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 12: Think it says bricklayer.

816
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 15: That's right.

817
00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 12: Yeah, who also has a new book called The Extended

818
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 12: Universe out April fourteenth next year that is about the

819
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 12: way that Disney sort of took over the world through

820
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:07,960
Speaker 12: the deployment, expansion and usage of the violence of the

821
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 12: copyright regime, a thing that is suddenly very relevant again

822
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,320
Speaker 12: in our weird Jimmy Kimmel hours, So we'll be talking

823
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,560
Speaker 12: some more about that and about Disney's long history of

824
00:33:19,200 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 12: fascist bullshit towards the end.

825
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 15: Of the Yeah.

826
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 16: Yeah, well it's it's it's a pleasure to be hearing

827
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 16: me at thanks, and yeah, we are all Jimmy's Kimmel,

828
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 16: you know, in this moment, I think, oh.

829
00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:32,200
Speaker 12: God, oh no, Jimmy's Kimble.

830
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:33,760
Speaker 15: Oh that's that.

831
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 12: Okay. So I think that the place I wanted to

832
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 12: start is with this like question of like, why does

833
00:33:45,920 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 12: it feel like this? Yeah, And I think part of

834
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 12: the reason it feels like that is that Trump's approval

835
00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 12: rating is really low, Like people don't actually like him.

836
00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 12: It's like forty one's reading is forty one percent. It's

837
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 12: down like a point in September, even with all the

838
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 12: Charlie Kirk stuff, it's still down. His most popular policy

839
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 12: is immigration policy, which is terrifying, But his most popular

840
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 12: policy is pulling at forty two percent, So no one

841
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,440
Speaker 12: actually likes him or anything that he does, right, and

842
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 12: like forty one percent is still like a lot of people,

843
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 12: but it's not the majority of the country, notably, like

844
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 12: biol math works.

845
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:24,520
Speaker 15: Yeah exactly.

846
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,480
Speaker 12: Yeah, There's been a few things I think are interesting

847
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 12: about this. There there are signs that this is actually

848
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:35,160
Speaker 12: really really there's something substantive happening here. One of them

849
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,080
Speaker 12: was a special election that I think people have paid

850
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 12: attention to for about two days and then forgot about,

851
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,960
Speaker 12: which was a special election in Iowa which prevented the

852
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:49,480
Speaker 12: GOP from getting a two third supermajority in the state legislature.

853
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 12: And the Democrats somehow, miraculously, even though the Democrats are

854
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:59,080
Speaker 12: hideously unpopular, they won a special election in a district

855
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:03,719
Speaker 12: in western Iowa that was plus eleven for Trump this year.

856
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 12: And this is not like a like this is a

857
00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 12: district that is like just Sioux City or something, or

858
00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 12: like you know, this is a this is a jerrymandered

859
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 12: ass district that is like a little bit of Sioux

860
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 12: City and then stretched out all the way into a

861
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,879
Speaker 12: bunch of rural areas like tofuse the vote. They won

862
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:23,120
Speaker 12: this district by eleven like last year, they lost this

863
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 12: election by eleven points in Western Iowa.

864
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 15: Yeah, unhinged.

865
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:32,239
Speaker 12: They're doing like all elections like this like that. It's

866
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:35,399
Speaker 12: it's being ridiculous. Like again this this is like this

867
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,280
Speaker 12: is again like voting for people who are like not popular,

868
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 12: but it's like literally any alternative people are like, holy shit.

869
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:47,240
Speaker 12: Western Iowa is like nah fuck this, this fucking sucks ass.

870
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,399
Speaker 15: Like it's yeah.

871
00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,839
Speaker 16: A thing that you know, I've been following a bit

872
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 16: is that farmers are freaking out. Yeah, soybean soybean crops

873
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,360
Speaker 16: and corn crops are gonna be rotting in the fields.

874
00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:01,680
Speaker 16: You know, I think soybeans, so soy in particular, something

875
00:36:01,719 --> 00:36:04,760
Speaker 16: like fifty percent of the US soy crop is traditionally export.

876
00:36:04,800 --> 00:36:07,840
Speaker 16: And by traditionally I mean every year exported to China.

877
00:36:07,880 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 16: This year China is not buying any American soybeans yep.

878
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 16: So literally half of the market is going to die.

879
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,720
Speaker 16: And I don't know, you know, people sometimes these numbers

880
00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 16: don't don't really do justice. If half of an economy collapses,

881
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 16: that's the whole economy collapsing. That's not that's not like

882
00:36:23,120 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 16: oh yeah, they just like took you know, a haircut,

883
00:36:25,560 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 16: Like that's massive.

884
00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 12: Yeah. American farmers are like the most bailed out class

885
00:36:30,560 --> 00:36:33,480
Speaker 12: of people who are not like major corporations in the

886
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,960
Speaker 12: entire world, and it's not working. Like they keep being like,

887
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 12: oh it's okay, we'll just like give you a bunch

888
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 12: of money, and it's not enough because China has decided

889
00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:43,520
Speaker 12: not to buy any of this, so I mean crop.

890
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,640
Speaker 12: But it's like okay, yeah, And this is something we

891
00:36:46,960 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 12: talked about like at the beginning of the administration, which

892
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,120
Speaker 12: is that like this administration has been going through and

893
00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 12: systematically alienating every single part of the coalition. Yeah, they're

894
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 12: pissing off like the farmers, they're pissing off like the

895
00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 12: major pharmaceutical companies, they're pissing off the military. They're pissing

896
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 12: off a whole bunch of the parts of government bureaucracy.

897
00:37:04,960 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 12: Like they've kind of stripped the FBI to the bones

898
00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:12,480
Speaker 12: over like comey stuff that they're still mad about. And

899
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:14,000
Speaker 12: then the guy they put in charge of it is

900
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 12: just like completely incompetence, and it's like, Okay, there's only

901
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 12: so long you can sort of go like systematically alienating

902
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:23,279
Speaker 12: every party of your coalition, just like basically attempting to

903
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:26,080
Speaker 12: drop a bomb on the economy every single week, and

904
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,560
Speaker 12: sometimes it drops and sometimes it doesn't.

905
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 15: Yeah, exactly.

906
00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 16: I think there's actually an interesting sort of parallel here

907
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 16: with tech stocks and with like the economy in general

908
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,200
Speaker 16: that has been sort of you know, on the ground

909
00:37:38,200 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 16: for most of us has felt like it's been in

910
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,800
Speaker 16: recession since twenty twenty. Yeah, right, you know of different

911
00:37:42,840 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 16: sizes and localities, but it's felt bad for a while.

912
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 15: Now it's really bad.

913
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:48,879
Speaker 16: No one can get a job, yep, right, Like things

914
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 16: are really like, prices are going.

915
00:37:50,360 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 15: Up, up up.

916
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 16: Everyone feels bad, and yet the stock market is still

917
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 16: achieving highs. And I think there's sort of a generalized

918
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:01,879
Speaker 16: equivalent strategy of like make it look like things are

919
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 16: normal and good, and like that will actually just support

920
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 16: things materially, and like, yep, I mean maybe it will forever.

921
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,359
Speaker 15: Maybe the bottom will never fall out. I don't know.

922
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:13,879
Speaker 15: I don't think that's I think that's not bad bad,

923
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:15,040
Speaker 15: but like, okay.

924
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 12: Yeah, well but and I think the interesting part of

925
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 12: this too is if you look at what's going on

926
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:22,839
Speaker 12: with the economy, and it's also word noting, right, Like,

927
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 12: the economy nominally in sort of econometric terms, looks fine.

928
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,520
Speaker 12: They're not fine, but it looks sort of okay, right,

929
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,720
Speaker 12: the stock market is still growing. There's technically like economic growth.

930
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:40,480
Speaker 12: But comma, we both saw this chart a couple of

931
00:38:40,520 --> 00:38:42,560
Speaker 12: weeks ago. That is the most unhinged thing I've ever

932
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 12: seen in my entire life, which is there is a

933
00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 12: GDP chart by a JP Morgan analyst which shows that

934
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 12: tech in the last year roughly and like in the

935
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:58,160
Speaker 12: last sort of like short and window, it's been thirty

936
00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:03,840
Speaker 12: five to forty five percent of all US GDP growth. Yeah,

937
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 12: and what I say tech, by the way, like to

938
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,359
Speaker 12: be clear about this, it is technically a composite of

939
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,560
Speaker 12: like all sector, right, but like it's basically just the

940
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 12: like the top like the five big tech companies, right, yep,

941
00:39:17,320 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 12: it's like Apple, its Microsoft, but pasifically. And this is

942
00:39:20,520 --> 00:39:22,680
Speaker 12: the one that's like unhinged right now, is that like

943
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,240
Speaker 12: the most valuable company in the world is in video,

944
00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:29,000
Speaker 12: a company that makes graphics cards yep, yep. And this

945
00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 12: is all because this is all of his GDP growth

946
00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:34,720
Speaker 12: quote unquote is AI boom stuff? Right, it's like massive

947
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 12: fix capital investments. Sure, it's like, yeah, there's like incredible

948
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,600
Speaker 12: fixed appal investments, but the fixed capital investments are just

949
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:46,239
Speaker 12: We're building a diesel powered AI data center somewhere in

950
00:39:46,320 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 12: Tennessee that is going to poison the entire population for

951
00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:52,800
Speaker 12: no benefit. Yeah, And it's like all of these companies

952
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 12: like have gone just completely totally all in on AI

953
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,360
Speaker 12: A think that doesn't make anybody, can't make anybody instructurally

954
00:39:58,400 --> 00:39:59,680
Speaker 12: will not make any money. And this is like a

955
00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 12: third like the growth of the economy.

956
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,680
Speaker 16: We are actually living through the famous old tweet the

957
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,120
Speaker 16: drill Is it drill about the candles? Someone out fixed

958
00:40:07,120 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 16: my economy living in the candles street. The whole economy

959
00:40:10,160 --> 00:40:10,640
Speaker 16: is candles.

960
00:40:10,719 --> 00:40:11,080
Speaker 15: Yeah.

961
00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:13,520
Speaker 12: Yeah, And this is thing that our colleague at this

962
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,960
Speaker 12: run argues that there's just there is not enough money

963
00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:22,799
Speaker 12: in the world to just continuously bail these companies out. Yeah,

964
00:40:22,840 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 12: Like there just isn't right the cash flow of these companies.

965
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:28,239
Speaker 12: It's like they've managed to achieve a cash flow rate

966
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:32,920
Speaker 12: that like can't be replaced by government contracts, which is

967
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 12: just unbelievable. And I think this is one of the

968
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:38,719
Speaker 12: disconnect things, right because like it's interesting You're starting to

969
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 12: see a little bit of stuff crop up from like

970
00:40:42,320 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 12: local level politicians where offy once in a while you

971
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 12: get them to be like, oh yeah, no, it is

972
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 12: like a recession economy, like on the ground in like Wisconsin.

973
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 12: But I feel like in the media and this is

974
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:53,720
Speaker 12: one of the things that I think makes everything insane.

975
00:40:53,760 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 12: It's not being treated that way.

976
00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 16: Yeah no, and I think you know you you went

977
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,080
Speaker 16: exactly where you know, hitked about going, but we're gonna go.

978
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,160
Speaker 16: Which is that like part of what is so crazy

979
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 16: making about this current moment is precisely that disconnect between

980
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:11,399
Speaker 16: sort of the on the ground experience that everyone's been

981
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 16: having for years now. But it is like especially intense

982
00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:18,680
Speaker 16: and like the fact that like AI is very obviously

983
00:41:18,800 --> 00:41:22,040
Speaker 16: not interesting or good and no one likes it, and

984
00:41:22,080 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 16: like even that people who sort of are I think

985
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,239
Speaker 16: mostly in good faith like trying to take it seriously,

986
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:29,320
Speaker 16: and who are like, yeah, it's going to change everything,

987
00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:32,719
Speaker 16: Like you know, like normally people in work stuff, like

988
00:41:32,800 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 16: they don't really use it very much, or if they

989
00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 16: do use it, like it's not effective. There wasn't a

990
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:41,200
Speaker 16: campaign to force everyone to buy smartphones when the iPhone happened,

991
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,920
Speaker 16: everyone wanted one because it was like obvious what it

992
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 16: did for you. Now you know, they're obviously whatever's this

993
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,799
Speaker 16: is not a defense of the smartphone, but like there

994
00:41:49,880 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 16: is this broad recognition that that is nonsense, right, that

995
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:58,320
Speaker 16: like the AI economy is nonsense, that like the economy

996
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:00,239
Speaker 16: that everyone says is doing fine, feels bad. And this

997
00:42:00,280 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 16: has been going on since you know, Biden campaigned on

998
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 16: you know, oh it's just a vibe session. The you know,

999
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:09,320
Speaker 16: the economy is fine, and like the economy wasn't fine.

1000
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 17: No.

1001
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 16: One of the charts I really am obsessed with is

1002
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,840
Speaker 16: a chart from like Bloomberg, which is like a small

1003
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:18,520
Speaker 16: business owner confidence from like twenty ten to twenty twenty five,

1004
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:20,880
Speaker 16: and like if you look like from twenty sixteen to

1005
00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,320
Speaker 16: twenty twenty, which is the first Trump term, it goes

1006
00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 16: up like five hundred percent, right.

1007
00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 12: She's just goes up.

1008
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 15: It just just as huge.

1009
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 16: It's the highest that's been by huge margin, and it

1010
00:42:30,600 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 16: just drops again in twenty twenty. So it finally made

1011
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:37,360
Speaker 16: me understand why so many Libs were like so committed

1012
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 16: to the vibe session analysis, because there was a massive

1013
00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 16: vibe inflation under the first Trump administration. So the reason

1014
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 16: people felt like the economy was good was because small

1015
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 16: business owners. And this is the classic analysis of fascists, right,

1016
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,319
Speaker 16: the petty bergs, Wow, the small business Yeah, they were like,

1017
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:52,840
Speaker 16: these are the best times you've ever lived through, based

1018
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 16: on no evidence. And if you work for a business

1019
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 16: and your boss is like things are booming, We're doing great.

1020
00:42:57,320 --> 00:42:59,200
Speaker 15: You know, if you don't run the numbers, you're likely

1021
00:42:59,280 --> 00:42:59,759
Speaker 15: to believe it.

1022
00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:02,040
Speaker 16: You know, like if if everyone around you is saying that, like,

1023
00:43:02,480 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 16: there's no reason to doubt it, unless I mean, you know,

1024
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:06,960
Speaker 16: you don't you don't really believe your boss at the time,

1025
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:08,360
Speaker 16: but you know what I'm saying, Like it just has

1026
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:10,920
Speaker 16: it has an effect of making everyone feel.

1027
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:11,399
Speaker 15: Like things are better.

1028
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 16: That chart started to creep up again after Trump's election

1029
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:18,360
Speaker 16: November twenty twenty four, before Liberation Day, but on the

1030
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 16: announcement of the Liberation Day, traffs tanks.

1031
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:21,400
Speaker 15: So that's gone.

1032
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 12: Yeah, it's gone. Yeah. And I think that's a really

1033
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:30,319
Speaker 12: vital sort of component of what's happening. Is like, you know,

1034
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:32,080
Speaker 12: we talk a lot about how so there's sort of

1035
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:35,319
Speaker 12: these like self contained like reality tunnels that people are

1036
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:38,399
Speaker 12: gone down. But it's also really diffused by class. Yes, yes,

1037
00:43:38,640 --> 00:43:40,800
Speaker 12: And this ties back to the AI stuff for example,

1038
00:43:40,800 --> 00:43:43,400
Speaker 12: where it's like, if you are in the tech sector,

1039
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:46,200
Speaker 12: AI is kind of useful because the one thing you

1040
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:50,399
Speaker 12: can sort of kind of do decently well is programmed, right,

1041
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 12: and you're and if you are in this sort of

1042
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 12: like world which is again, enormous portions of all of

1043
00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:59,239
Speaker 12: the economic growth right that is happening is coming out

1044
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 12: of these places, and it's like, oh, this really does

1045
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 12: look like like the future is here. If you've you

1046
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 12: suddenly have this machine that can do your job for you.

1047
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 12: And it's like, well, maybe coding, which wasn't that hard

1048
00:44:08,160 --> 00:44:12,160
Speaker 12: to begin with, maybe, but like you know, like guys,

1049
00:44:12,200 --> 00:44:14,040
Speaker 12: I say this as someone who learned to code and

1050
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:18,320
Speaker 12: hated it, but like, you know, but like it creates

1051
00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:21,560
Speaker 12: these sort of like self reinforced like reality tunnels. But

1052
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:23,160
Speaker 12: every the thing about the reality tunnels is like every

1053
00:44:23,160 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 12: once in a while, like the actual world comes in

1054
00:44:26,040 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 12: like a giant fucking arrow and punctures it. And that's

1055
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 12: what happened to those all business people was they were like,

1056
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 12: oh shit, what do you mean they got rid of

1057
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 12: the deminimist sicccession? What do you mean they're putting all

1058
00:44:34,600 --> 00:44:36,799
Speaker 12: these tariffs up? What do you mean They're like just

1059
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:39,960
Speaker 12: straight up taking a sledgehammer to the entire logistic system

1060
00:44:40,000 --> 00:44:42,439
Speaker 12: that have been Like that's the basis of like most

1061
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,640
Speaker 12: America's all businesses are like are shipping businesses right like

1062
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,239
Speaker 12: or they're either either directly shipping businesses or they rely

1063
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:51,360
Speaker 12: on on cheap imports from a whole bunch of different countries.

1064
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 12: This even goes into like the grift economy, right, Like

1065
00:44:53,760 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 12: massive portions of the grift economy are just like yeah,

1066
00:44:56,600 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 12: like drop shifting.

1067
00:44:57,280 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 16: Grift bulls, supplements, stacks, Yeah exactly, Yeah, Like you know,

1068
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,120
Speaker 16: it's another reality Tonnel mea.

1069
00:45:03,239 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 12: Oh these products and services, dammit, that was a better

1070
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 12: one than I was. I was gonna do. You know

1071
00:45:07,640 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 12: what else is a scam, But these products and services

1072
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:27,880
Speaker 12: that support this podcast. We are so back. We have

1073
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:30,720
Speaker 12: never been more back. I want to kind of also

1074
00:45:30,760 --> 00:45:33,960
Speaker 12: talk about what's been happening structurally with the media as

1075
00:45:33,960 --> 00:45:35,520
Speaker 12: this has been going on, which is that Trump and

1076
00:45:35,560 --> 00:45:39,719
Speaker 12: his party has staged a pretty successful takeover of a

1077
00:45:39,800 --> 00:45:42,399
Speaker 12: lot of it. You know, you had, I mean Elon

1078
00:45:42,440 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 12: Musk obviously buying X but like they're in the process

1079
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:48,759
Speaker 12: of taking over CBS basically by using the fact that

1080
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,440
Speaker 12: quote unquote free media is actually capitalist media, and you

1081
00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 12: can just buy them out and bully them by threatening

1082
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:57,759
Speaker 12: them with losing money. You can, in fact just completely

1083
00:45:57,760 --> 00:45:59,759
Speaker 12: get them to fall in line or have your own

1084
00:46:00,000 --> 00:46:02,600
Speaker 12: which backers just buy it. And I think this is

1085
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 12: refueling the disconnect right where there was also this this

1086
00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 12: post twenty twenty, all of like this. The senior management

1087
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,839
Speaker 12: level of all of the newspapers kind of lost their

1088
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:15,399
Speaker 12: minds in twenty twenty because their staff was like, no,

1089
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 12: we don't want to print Tom Cotton calling for the

1090
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:22,120
Speaker 12: US Army to be deployed against protesters, and these people

1091
00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 12: were like, Okay, fuck it, We're we're like, you know,

1092
00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 12: you see as like the Washington Post, they were like, yeah,

1093
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 12: we will literally rather burn the Post than have that

1094
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:32,600
Speaker 12: happened again. And the Post obviously is like under the

1095
00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 12: control of Jeff Bezos. She was a style war Trump ally,

1096
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 12: and I think this has been contributing to it because

1097
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 12: like they've been able to take over social media platforms,

1098
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,080
Speaker 12: and they've been able to take over the sort of corporate

1099
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:49,920
Speaker 12: like bourgeois media, and it's created this incredible unreality of

1100
00:46:50,239 --> 00:46:53,320
Speaker 12: this image that he is like this like staggeringly popular

1101
00:46:53,440 --> 00:46:55,600
Speaker 12: leader and that the things he do are popular, and

1102
00:46:55,600 --> 00:46:58,600
Speaker 12: that there's been like a giant cultural shift towards his stuff,

1103
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 12: and it's like, well, I mean, they're kind of has

1104
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:02,799
Speaker 12: been a cultural shift in terms of like you know,

1105
00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:10,359
Speaker 12: elite liberals are allowed to be racist again, Like all

1106
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,160
Speaker 12: of the people who always wanted to be eugenicists are like,

1107
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 12: you know, on that shit now.

1108
00:47:15,960 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 16: And they you know, they cracked their knuckles and warmed

1109
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:20,360
Speaker 16: up under COVID, right like this this is also contiguous

1110
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:22,359
Speaker 16: in a way, and yeah, yeah, no, I think that

1111
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:24,719
Speaker 16: that's exactly right. And I think part of what we

1112
00:47:24,760 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 16: saw in the last week, I mean, I know we're

1113
00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 16: going to talk about this a bit that like the

1114
00:47:28,280 --> 00:47:30,600
Speaker 16: last week when we're recording this, which was the week

1115
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 16: of the Charlie Kirk memorializing when everyone pretended that ventilating

1116
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:36,480
Speaker 16: a Nazi was like the greatest tragedy that had the

1117
00:47:36,480 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 16: fallen American heroes. And I saw a lot of people

1118
00:47:39,640 --> 00:47:43,600
Speaker 16: who had been up until then relatively level headed suddenly

1119
00:47:43,680 --> 00:47:45,680
Speaker 16: really start to panic that week and feel like things

1120
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:47,840
Speaker 16: were really And I think part of that was because

1121
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 16: with a man as absolutely risless and as obviously malicious

1122
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 16: and uninteresting as Charlie Kirk getting that treatment like he was,

1123
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 16: you know, Robert Redford or whatever he was about it,

1124
00:48:00,440 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 16: I think that happening in Unison across all the media,

1125
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:10,000
Speaker 16: I think people finally realized, like, oh, everything is totally captured,

1126
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:12,719
Speaker 16: and the people who hadn't really thought that felt like

1127
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:14,960
Speaker 16: that there was sort of this unanimity, the unanimity you're

1128
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:18,000
Speaker 16: talking about, because they're able to project this unanimity through

1129
00:48:18,480 --> 00:48:21,479
Speaker 16: this one sort of media voice, and like the fact

1130
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 16: that that was punctured by Jimmy Kimmel getting fired, and

1131
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:27,800
Speaker 16: they're being like a genuine upswell of popular attention about

1132
00:48:27,800 --> 00:48:31,160
Speaker 16: the man show guy, like like who hasn't been funny,

1133
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,719
Speaker 16: like probably since he was fourteen or whatever. I think

1134
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:35,080
Speaker 16: a lot of people have focused on that as being

1135
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:38,040
Speaker 16: extremely embarrassing in cringe, which like, yeah, accurate, But I

1136
00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:41,120
Speaker 16: think like also like they couldn't even hold it together

1137
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:43,759
Speaker 16: for a week, right, Like they couldn't even hold this

1138
00:48:44,200 --> 00:48:45,640
Speaker 16: full court press together for a week.

1139
00:48:45,840 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 15: They had that Charlie Kirk documentary.

1140
00:48:47,680 --> 00:48:49,279
Speaker 16: They were like, we're gonna film it on you know,

1141
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 16: on Sinclair, all the places where we would be showing

1142
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:52,080
Speaker 16: Jimmy Kimmel.

1143
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:53,760
Speaker 15: They just canceled it. They put it on YouTube.

1144
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,799
Speaker 12: Yeah, twenty six thousand views. This means I am very

1145
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:00,640
Speaker 12: very proud of this. More people listen to me complaining

1146
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:03,759
Speaker 12: about the way that everything everywhere, all at once, was

1147
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 12: spreading the porschwise patriarchal ideology of the family. More people

1148
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 12: listen to me talk about that on this show that

1149
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,480
Speaker 12: watched the stupid fucking Charlie gud worry.

1150
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:19,120
Speaker 15: Sorry to that man, but people do not care, Like people.

1151
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,759
Speaker 16: Don't care about that guy and and it didn't And

1152
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:24,680
Speaker 16: also as you said the opening, his poles have gone down.

1153
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 16: People are like shut up about this, like they don't care.

1154
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 16: It doesn't work like this, like poles aren't everything. But

1155
00:49:30,080 --> 00:49:33,319
Speaker 16: like I think this disconnect. It's so hard is that

1156
00:49:33,400 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 16: if you are mostly getting your information from a media environment,

1157
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 16: which all of us do, Like that's how most of

1158
00:49:38,160 --> 00:49:39,960
Speaker 16: us get all of our information. That's this is not

1159
00:49:40,000 --> 00:49:43,960
Speaker 16: a judgment. It feels like everyone is like, you know,

1160
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 16: is at like half mast, you know, for their for

1161
00:49:46,560 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 16: their beautiful their beautiful boy. Look what they did to

1162
00:49:48,680 --> 00:49:50,920
Speaker 16: my beautiful boy with his tiny little face and his

1163
00:49:51,360 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 16: huge neck that like apparently was made of steel and

1164
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,520
Speaker 16: caught bullets. Like a Fox News article said that he

1165
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:00,920
Speaker 16: was like particularly strong bodied and he kept saved other people.

1166
00:50:01,560 --> 00:50:03,879
Speaker 12: Okay, I didn't talk about this for a second because

1167
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:06,279
Speaker 12: this is so fucking un hite. What Okay, so his

1168
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:10,400
Speaker 12: like surgeon or whatever was like, oh yeah he was.

1169
00:50:10,520 --> 00:50:12,359
Speaker 12: He started his surgeon wrote a thing about like this

1170
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,359
Speaker 12: bone that doesn't exist, yeah that he was like, oh yeah,

1171
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,360
Speaker 12: he had this really thick bone there that stopped the bullet.

1172
00:50:18,560 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 12: And this got like picked up by like Fox News,

1173
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 12: who's that running a story about this magical iron bone

1174
00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:29,400
Speaker 12: in Charlie Kirk's neck that like God put there or

1175
00:50:29,480 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 12: something to save I just.

1176
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,560
Speaker 15: It's it's so I can read the headline for you.

1177
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:36,399
Speaker 15: Hang on, I've got it here.

1178
00:50:36,560 --> 00:50:40,000
Speaker 16: Oh god, this is Fox News on x There's a

1179
00:50:40,000 --> 00:50:42,800
Speaker 16: picture of Charlie Kirk that says surgeon says, Charlie Kirk's

1180
00:50:42,800 --> 00:50:46,400
Speaker 16: body stopped bullet in quote absolute miracle that saved others,

1181
00:50:46,440 --> 00:50:49,800
Speaker 16: TPUSA says, and then quote man of steel, Charlie Kirk's

1182
00:50:49,800 --> 00:50:52,000
Speaker 16: body stopped a bullet that would typically quote just go

1183
00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 16: through everything and it was quote an absolute miracle. Nobody

1184
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,839
Speaker 16: else was killed his surgeon. Tod's turning point, us, So

1185
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:01,759
Speaker 16: that's weird behavior that people don't like.

1186
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:03,600
Speaker 15: That's not yeah.

1187
00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:07,879
Speaker 16: No, So I think like basically they have this capacity

1188
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 16: to do this like really really intense, unified message across

1189
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 16: the entire spectrum of the media, and we're seeing it

1190
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:18,239
Speaker 16: again right now with like NPR publishing basically does tile

1191
00:51:18,280 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 16: it all actually cause autism, so the science.

1192
00:51:20,320 --> 00:51:22,800
Speaker 15: Isn't out yet, you know, or whatever like as their headline,

1193
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:23,000
Speaker 15: you know.

1194
00:51:23,080 --> 00:51:27,080
Speaker 16: Yeah, So like obviously, like that's scary if you're used

1195
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:30,080
Speaker 16: to a reality which is shaped largely by the media,

1196
00:51:30,239 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 16: and and Trump has gotten into office twice based on

1197
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 16: a media reality shaping effect.

1198
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:36,359
Speaker 15: The media has been the.

1199
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:40,399
Speaker 16: Main tool, both social and mainstream, for putting him into power.

1200
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 16: So it's understandable to take it seriously because it does

1201
00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:45,000
Speaker 16: need to be taken seriously.

1202
00:51:45,280 --> 00:51:48,000
Speaker 15: But there's other stuff going on.

1203
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:52,360
Speaker 12: Well, And like the funniest version of this was just

1204
00:51:52,520 --> 00:51:57,440
Speaker 12: how fast Disney caved on bringing Jimmy Kimmel back, yes,

1205
00:51:57,600 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 12: which was like sub one week.

1206
00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:01,239
Speaker 15: Yeah, no, it was sub one week.

1207
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 16: And you know, to me, that says that actually the

1208
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,880
Speaker 16: boycott spread real fast and real far. Like there was

1209
00:52:07,920 --> 00:52:10,799
Speaker 16: a Disney adult on TikTok right who was sort of

1210
00:52:10,840 --> 00:52:13,400
Speaker 16: like giving people instructions on how to cancel their Disney

1211
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:16,760
Speaker 16: World vacations and was like canceling his Disney World wedding,

1212
00:52:17,120 --> 00:52:19,200
Speaker 16: you know, and like this was like all happening really

1213
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:22,600
Speaker 16: really fast. People were really mad. And you know, yeah,

1214
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:24,960
Speaker 16: it's again it's goofy that it's over Jimmy Kimmel. But

1215
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,160
Speaker 16: it's not really about Jimmy Kimmel, right, it's because everyone

1216
00:52:27,200 --> 00:52:27,879
Speaker 16: hates this man.

1217
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:29,080
Speaker 15: They hate this.

1218
00:52:29,560 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 12: Yeah, and people don't actually want this in dipshit to

1219
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 12: just literally and you know, and he's trying to do

1220
00:52:35,719 --> 00:52:38,279
Speaker 12: this again, right, he's apparently trying to sue Disney, like

1221
00:52:38,960 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 12: they don't want the fucking orange guy to be able

1222
00:52:42,640 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 12: to just straight up say what is legal to say

1223
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:47,440
Speaker 12: on TV. Yeah, which is the thing that he is

1224
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:48,560
Speaker 12: attempting to do right now.

1225
00:52:48,920 --> 00:52:50,840
Speaker 16: And the other thing about it that I think is

1226
00:52:51,200 --> 00:52:55,240
Speaker 16: really important and relevant is that a better dictatorship doesn't

1227
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 16: go to the press and fire this man. They pull

1228
00:52:58,760 --> 00:53:02,600
Speaker 16: strings behind this. They get him to retract like on

1229
00:53:02,719 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 16: his show in a way that causes no attention, and

1230
00:53:05,239 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 16: the people who follow Kimmel see it enough to understand

1231
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:10,319
Speaker 16: that power has been pulled behind the strings, but they

1232
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:11,920
Speaker 16: probably don't really think much about it.

1233
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:12,319
Speaker 15: Right.

1234
00:53:12,560 --> 00:53:16,840
Speaker 16: That is how like real, really smooth smooth repression of

1235
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:20,439
Speaker 16: a free press into a bot press involves a lot

1236
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:22,760
Speaker 16: of strings being pulled behind the scenes, and in fact,

1237
00:53:23,200 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 16: it has been happening for twenty years in America. There

1238
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:27,560
Speaker 16: has been a lot of that going on. Part of

1239
00:53:27,600 --> 00:53:30,800
Speaker 16: what's so obscene about this whole situation in a certain

1240
00:53:30,840 --> 00:53:34,520
Speaker 16: way is that Trump just needs to do less. Things

1241
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:37,720
Speaker 16: have been set up for fascism for a while.

1242
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:40,240
Speaker 15: He just needs to do less. And he can't help himself.

1243
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,399
Speaker 15: They can't help themselves because they're you know, because they

1244
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:45,320
Speaker 15: need it to be in this sort of public mode.

1245
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:47,040
Speaker 15: And also he's lost his you know, his juice.

1246
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 12: But yeah, yeah, well and it's also just like, I mean,

1247
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:53,520
Speaker 12: this is so partially Trump is just like pathologically obsessed

1248
00:53:53,560 --> 00:53:57,359
Speaker 12: with late night comedy, right because he's a TV guy

1249
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,640
Speaker 12: and so he's just mad on Red and maden nude online.

1250
00:54:00,680 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 12: Except like the previous version of it were like you

1251
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:05,799
Speaker 12: were just like throwing shit at your television set in

1252
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:09,720
Speaker 12: like nineteen fifty five, which is a real really terrified

1253
00:54:09,719 --> 00:54:12,840
Speaker 12: thing to have in the presidency. But you know, speaking

1254
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:15,480
Speaker 12: of speaking of having things in the presidency, these products

1255
00:54:15,480 --> 00:54:18,920
Speaker 12: and services, look, if they've painted more, you get better transitions.

1256
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 18: Yeah, but they don't, so vote for them.

1257
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:37,640
Speaker 12: We are back, So you know, I think it's worth

1258
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,640
Speaker 12: noting that, Like yeah, no, like like the immediate financial

1259
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:44,799
Speaker 12: pressure of you know, just just the collision of weight

1260
00:54:44,960 --> 00:54:48,920
Speaker 12: hold on like the people who buy things, which is

1261
00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 12: most people admittedly, like Disney adults are a very narrow

1262
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:56,400
Speaker 12: subset of people, but like the speed and rapidity of

1263
00:54:56,440 --> 00:55:00,560
Speaker 12: which reality, which is people don't like this guy hit

1264
00:55:01,080 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 12: the like sort of you know, just just like just

1265
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:06,920
Speaker 12: like sort of smashed through this like tunnel of the

1266
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:09,880
Speaker 12: Charlie Kirk stuff was just unbelievable, you know, and like

1267
00:55:09,880 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 12: part of this this is something that Marissa Cabas from

1268
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:15,440
Speaker 12: uh the Handbasket reported, which is that part of what

1269
00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:17,359
Speaker 12: was going on with Disney was about to roll out

1270
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:19,719
Speaker 12: a price increase. Yeah, and so they had to bring

1271
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:23,319
Speaker 12: it back so they could do their price increase, which well, brother,

1272
00:55:23,480 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 12: just delay the price increase if we're trying to do

1273
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:28,840
Speaker 12: authoritaries whatever. Okay, you know, I am happy these people

1274
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:32,040
Speaker 12: suck at doing this. It's great, we like it. We

1275
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:34,520
Speaker 12: like that they're bad at it, right, Yeah, you know,

1276
00:55:34,560 --> 00:55:36,759
Speaker 12: like Disney is being pressured here, but I think it's

1277
00:55:36,880 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 12: worth talking about something that you have been spending a

1278
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:44,879
Speaker 12: ungodly amount of time in the minds of, yeah, which

1279
00:55:44,920 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 12: is Disney and fascist Oh boy.

1280
00:55:49,680 --> 00:55:53,280
Speaker 16: Hey, yeah, I mean, part of what's been so funny

1281
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:56,000
Speaker 16: about this week for me personally, and that's what really

1282
00:55:56,040 --> 00:55:59,960
Speaker 16: matters obviously, is that is that is that, like you know,

1283
00:56:00,160 --> 00:56:01,879
Speaker 16: when we went into this administration and we started seeing

1284
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 16: what they were doing, I was like, I can't believe

1285
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:07,399
Speaker 16: I'm writing a book about free trade and law fair right,

1286
00:56:07,480 --> 00:56:09,680
Speaker 16: like warfare by law, like you know, like sort of

1287
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:14,160
Speaker 16: this massive corporate legal apparatus that has been supported by

1288
00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:17,440
Speaker 16: global trade regimes because they're ripping it apart right like that,

1289
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 16: Like the pharma tariffs is like a huge blow to

1290
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:24,120
Speaker 16: the IP regime. Sorry, the intellectual property regime. The IP

1291
00:56:24,239 --> 00:56:26,120
Speaker 16: regime is what I analyze in the book I've just

1292
00:56:26,120 --> 00:56:28,520
Speaker 16: written and is coming out in April, and it's about

1293
00:56:28,560 --> 00:56:31,440
Speaker 16: how Disney really was like a sort of pioneer in

1294
00:56:31,560 --> 00:56:35,000
Speaker 16: understanding the value of intellectual property and manipulating it and

1295
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:38,040
Speaker 16: how you can see that through the entire corporate and

1296
00:56:38,160 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 16: artistic history of Disney Studios. So it's about like Disney

1297
00:56:41,200 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 16: movies and how they're all connected. They actually all sort

1298
00:56:43,160 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 16: of tell stories about IP in certain ways, and how

1299
00:56:45,640 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 16: we sort of miss that angle on them very often,

1300
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 16: very frequently, and misunderstand how much IP functions in the

1301
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:54,880
Speaker 16: broader society because, for example, fast fashion companies, Now I

1302
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 16: know you said talk about Disney, I'm.

1303
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:56,600
Speaker 15: Talking about something else.

1304
00:56:56,640 --> 00:57:00,239
Speaker 16: Say fast fashion companies, they actually own very very read

1305
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:04,800
Speaker 16: little materially, so their offices are leased. Mostly their factories

1306
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:08,440
Speaker 16: are contracted. You know, everyone who makes the sewing is contracted.

1307
00:57:08,440 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 16: They might own their stores, but they probably lease their stores. Right,

1308
00:57:11,840 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 16: They like have very few direct employees other than like

1309
00:57:14,360 --> 00:57:17,080
Speaker 16: store level if they don't franchise, but they might even franchise.

1310
00:57:17,120 --> 00:57:19,120
Speaker 16: They might not even employ the store level people, but

1311
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:22,160
Speaker 16: they probably do store level people corporate employees. And then

1312
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:25,080
Speaker 16: they own their IP and maybe they own a headquarters

1313
00:57:25,120 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 16: building somewhere right like that's a fancy building, and everything

1314
00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:34,040
Speaker 16: else is quote unquote owned by them, controlling the designs,

1315
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 16: the logos, the images, and they can guarantee that they

1316
00:57:37,120 --> 00:57:41,040
Speaker 16: can make almost infinite money off of that. Because the

1317
00:57:41,160 --> 00:57:45,080
Speaker 16: global trade regime enforces copyright law in a way that

1318
00:57:45,600 --> 00:57:47,360
Speaker 16: would make people who would like to see any human

1319
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 16: rights thing enacted blush with shame, and it is incredibly effective.

1320
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:53,959
Speaker 16: It is the one thing that international law does quite

1321
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 16: well is enforced copyright YEP and trademark and patent. So

1322
00:57:58,360 --> 00:58:00,400
Speaker 16: when you have stuff like the you know, you can

1323
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 16: no longer ship under eight hundred dollars without tariffs. Like

1324
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:07,000
Speaker 16: those companies are entirely reliant on being able to move

1325
00:58:07,040 --> 00:58:09,320
Speaker 16: these products as cheaply and as quickly as possible because

1326
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:12,320
Speaker 16: they don't own ships, they don't own factories, they don't

1327
00:58:12,360 --> 00:58:14,520
Speaker 16: even really own the you know, they they own the

1328
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:16,520
Speaker 16: shirts only when they arrive on American shores.

1329
00:58:16,560 --> 00:58:19,040
Speaker 12: Really, this has always been the dream of reproduction of capital,

1330
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:20,760
Speaker 12: which is to have a company with no assets that

1331
00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:24,800
Speaker 12: makes money exactly, and they're so close, they're so cleanly.

1332
00:58:24,400 --> 00:58:26,240
Speaker 15: Close, and all this stuff is destroying it.

1333
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 16: So I was like, well, great, now I've written this

1334
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:30,560
Speaker 16: whole book about how Disney you know, is actually really

1335
00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:33,080
Speaker 16: like a state actor, and like they have they have

1336
00:58:33,200 --> 00:58:35,480
Speaker 16: like a sovereign territory in Florida that people talk about

1337
00:58:35,520 --> 00:58:38,720
Speaker 16: a little bit called the Reedy Creek Improvement District you

1338
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:39,800
Speaker 16: may or may not know about.

1339
00:58:40,000 --> 00:58:41,919
Speaker 15: People talked about Celebration Florida a bit.

1340
00:58:41,800 --> 00:58:43,440
Speaker 16: When that happened in the two thousands, which is like

1341
00:58:43,480 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 16: a weird creepy company town that they run. They actually

1342
00:58:46,200 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 16: own a huge section of It's like two counties it's

1343
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:53,360
Speaker 16: larger than the size of Manhattan in central Florida. Jesus Christ,

1344
00:58:54,320 --> 00:58:57,120
Speaker 16: what the conflict with the Santis over that don't say

1345
00:58:57,120 --> 00:59:00,920
Speaker 16: gay bill, which people you know, interpreted largely through the

1346
00:59:01,000 --> 00:59:03,440
Speaker 16: lens of the you know, horrifyingly reactionary politics.

1347
00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:04,840
Speaker 15: Who's pushing, which is understandable.

1348
00:59:05,240 --> 00:59:08,520
Speaker 16: Is also a conflict over sovereignty in Florida because they

1349
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:11,120
Speaker 16: don't pay taxes in the same way, they make their

1350
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:13,000
Speaker 16: own laws, they have their own police force.

1351
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:17,480
Speaker 15: So basically, Jesus Christ.

1352
00:59:16,880 --> 00:59:18,280
Speaker 12: Is they made the first networks.

1353
00:59:18,360 --> 00:59:20,480
Speaker 16: They did it, they did it, and they've been doing

1354
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:24,560
Speaker 16: it for thirty years. That probably sixty sixty nine is

1355
00:59:24,560 --> 00:59:27,040
Speaker 16: when they get the deal for READI creat They've had

1356
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:30,080
Speaker 16: it for a long a long time. People don't love

1357
00:59:30,120 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 16: to talk about this for some reason. I think it's

1358
00:59:31,760 --> 00:59:34,680
Speaker 16: really interesting, terrifying, but really interesting. But the reason that

1359
00:59:34,680 --> 00:59:37,640
Speaker 16: that's all really really connected to intellectual property is because

1360
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 16: one of the things that Disney did, despite you know,

1361
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:46,600
Speaker 16: having literally their own statelet in the middle of Florida,

1362
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:50,640
Speaker 16: is maintaining themselves as the magic kingdom. They are associated

1363
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:54,520
Speaker 16: with childhood nostalgia magic. Even as they've grown and grown

1364
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:58,440
Speaker 16: and grown. This behemoth. Like they've managed to largely stay

1365
00:59:58,640 --> 01:00:01,520
Speaker 16: connected to this sort of image of American innocence and childhood.

1366
01:00:01,520 --> 01:00:04,280
Speaker 16: And there have been moments in the nineties they overreached

1367
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:05,760
Speaker 16: a bit. There's been like you know, there have been problems,

1368
01:00:05,800 --> 01:00:08,840
Speaker 16: and you can read all about that. But basically they

1369
01:00:08,840 --> 01:00:12,160
Speaker 16: did image management on all these different levels. So they

1370
01:00:12,200 --> 01:00:15,360
Speaker 16: managed Mickey Mouse, They managed the law around copyright, like

1371
01:00:15,400 --> 01:00:19,480
Speaker 16: copyright extensions famously were largely driven by Disney lobbying in

1372
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:22,240
Speaker 16: nineteen seventy six and then again in nineteen ninety eight. Anyway,

1373
01:00:22,280 --> 01:00:24,560
Speaker 16: so all of these things, I'm trying to reduce a

1374
01:00:24,640 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 16: very big argument to a very small package here, But basically,

1375
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:31,320
Speaker 16: Disney designed and the and the other IP businesses that

1376
01:00:31,680 --> 01:00:34,400
Speaker 16: work around it have figured out that if you can

1377
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:38,720
Speaker 16: control the way your product appears in the market, and

1378
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:42,040
Speaker 16: you can control the images and the feelings people have

1379
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:44,120
Speaker 16: about them and the sort of thoughts and stuff, you

1380
01:00:44,160 --> 01:00:47,720
Speaker 16: can really do whatever you want materially behind the scenes,

1381
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:50,880
Speaker 16: right like that, Like controlling an image is so powerful.

1382
01:00:50,920 --> 01:00:54,160
Speaker 16: And part of why like what's happening with Disney, weh

1383
01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:56,880
Speaker 16: it's falling apart so fast, is because if they give

1384
01:00:56,880 --> 01:01:00,440
Speaker 16: in to Trump at all it requires shattering that image

1385
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:02,840
Speaker 16: that has been a century in the making, right, Like,

1386
01:01:02,840 --> 01:01:04,960
Speaker 16: like part of what was so brutal about the thing

1387
01:01:05,000 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 16: with Jimmy Kimmel was like, it's just obvious that Disney

1388
01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:10,480
Speaker 16: did that, that the corporate people did that, and they

1389
01:01:10,480 --> 01:01:13,560
Speaker 16: did it because Trump did it publicly. Trump is humiliating

1390
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:18,480
Speaker 16: these these corporations publicly. Right, He's humiliating them. He's forcing

1391
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:22,720
Speaker 16: them to come to heal. It's not working popularly, He's

1392
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:24,280
Speaker 16: not capturing anti corporate sentiment.

1393
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:25,400
Speaker 15: Really, people are.

1394
01:01:25,280 --> 01:01:27,360
Speaker 16: Like, why are you doing that over Jimmy Kimmel, Like

1395
01:01:27,400 --> 01:01:30,120
Speaker 16: that's weird, You're a creepy Yeah. But then also he's

1396
01:01:30,120 --> 01:01:34,280
Speaker 16: also destroying legitimacy of everyone. It's pulling everything down around him.

1397
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:37,240
Speaker 16: It's a family annihilation, right, He's so angry about twenty

1398
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 16: twenty and like being tried that he's just going to

1399
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 16: rip everything down around him.

1400
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:41,959
Speaker 12: Wow.

1401
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:44,440
Speaker 16: I just said a lot of different things, but all

1402
01:01:44,480 --> 01:01:47,080
Speaker 16: of which is to say, like, what's so interesting about

1403
01:01:47,120 --> 01:01:50,280
Speaker 16: like the Trump regime in some ways and the relationship

1404
01:01:50,320 --> 01:01:53,200
Speaker 16: to Disney is that Disney has for so long built

1405
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:56,520
Speaker 16: this image of America that has managed to persist like

1406
01:01:56,640 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 16: across and against you know, a century of increasingly violent,

1407
01:02:01,040 --> 01:02:04,480
Speaker 16: ineffective and visible imperialism like in Korea and Vietnam and

1408
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:07,440
Speaker 16: then Iraq and Afghanistan. It was so crucial to the

1409
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:12,240
Speaker 16: image of what American capitalism was. And then Trump, a

1410
01:02:12,320 --> 01:02:15,480
Speaker 16: man who is just as built by images as the

1411
01:02:15,480 --> 01:02:19,120
Speaker 16: Disney Corporation, comes and is just like just is ripping

1412
01:02:19,120 --> 01:02:21,320
Speaker 16: it all down because he's sort of you know, one

1413
01:02:21,440 --> 01:02:24,080
Speaker 16: gaping narcisstic wound right like and running a country.

1414
01:02:24,160 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 15: Right yeah. So if you look at the history of.

1415
01:02:26,480 --> 01:02:31,000
Speaker 16: Like Disney in general, Hollywood, and intellectual property management in general,

1416
01:02:31,560 --> 01:02:33,520
Speaker 16: what you can see is the way that we have

1417
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:36,280
Speaker 16: that this this media apparatus has been built. When I

1418
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:38,520
Speaker 16: say media apparatus, I think people tend to think, you know,

1419
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:40,960
Speaker 16: when you talk about images or the spectacle or whatever,

1420
01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:42,400
Speaker 16: they just think about.

1421
01:02:42,200 --> 01:02:43,000
Speaker 15: Stuff on TV.

1422
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:46,480
Speaker 16: But like, no, it's also all the products that circulate

1423
01:02:46,520 --> 01:02:48,960
Speaker 16: through society. And it's like the way that you get

1424
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:51,240
Speaker 16: paid for your job with you know, like the idea

1425
01:02:51,280 --> 01:02:53,360
Speaker 16: of clout is like actually part of that, Like it

1426
01:02:53,760 --> 01:02:55,800
Speaker 16: does function as a form of payment, right, Like it's

1427
01:02:55,800 --> 01:02:57,919
Speaker 16: not like people make fun of that, like oh good,

1428
01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:00,240
Speaker 16: but like then everyone acts as though it's real, right,

1429
01:03:00,720 --> 01:03:01,880
Speaker 16: and when everyone acts though.

1430
01:03:01,720 --> 01:03:03,200
Speaker 15: It's real, it's real. It's a social relation.

1431
01:03:03,640 --> 01:03:07,880
Speaker 16: So the entire spectacular economy, which is built entirely on

1432
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:11,040
Speaker 16: images that rely only on being forced through a sort

1433
01:03:11,080 --> 01:03:14,080
Speaker 16: of massive group thing from the top of the economy

1434
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:17,680
Speaker 16: and the political class, was built by these corporations, but

1435
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:20,440
Speaker 16: it was built explicitly to you know, reap as much

1436
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:22,320
Speaker 16: wealth as possible for their shareholders.

1437
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:23,920
Speaker 12: Yeah, yeah, have to make money. Yeah.

1438
01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:27,160
Speaker 16: Trump is too perfect a product of that, and this

1439
01:03:27,200 --> 01:03:29,080
Speaker 16: regime is too perfect a product of that. And now

1440
01:03:29,080 --> 01:03:31,840
Speaker 16: it's all it's all you know, it is its own

1441
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:32,640
Speaker 16: grave digger.

1442
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:32,760
Speaker 8: You know.

1443
01:03:33,200 --> 01:03:35,760
Speaker 12: Yeah. The port has a line about like the way

1444
01:03:35,760 --> 01:03:37,920
Speaker 12: that the spectacle sort of like intrudes into and like

1445
01:03:37,960 --> 01:03:40,560
Speaker 12: becomes reality. And like if Disney is sort of like

1446
01:03:40,680 --> 01:03:45,560
Speaker 12: the stage manager of this, right, Like Trump just is

1447
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:49,000
Speaker 12: the thing like come to life and powering through it,

1448
01:03:49,040 --> 01:03:51,640
Speaker 12: and she doesn't because he is the image and not

1449
01:03:52,440 --> 01:03:55,640
Speaker 12: the thing that creates the image. He has different interests, yes,

1450
01:03:55,800 --> 01:03:59,360
Speaker 12: than the people who create the image. Who are you know,

1451
01:03:59,520 --> 01:04:03,560
Speaker 12: trying to make money. Trump is trying to like satisfy

1452
01:04:03,680 --> 01:04:09,600
Speaker 12: all of his like vindictive sort of versissistic rage.

1453
01:04:10,040 --> 01:04:10,400
Speaker 15: Exactly.

1454
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:13,000
Speaker 16: It's worth remembering that, you know, although the damage he's

1455
01:04:13,040 --> 01:04:17,520
Speaker 16: doing is extremely real. Yeah, he genuinely is fighting over

1456
01:04:17,600 --> 01:04:20,400
Speaker 16: the election and over like Komi, Like he is like

1457
01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:23,160
Speaker 16: he really believes these things. This is a regime that

1458
01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:27,920
Speaker 16: believes the things that for example, Carl Rove would teach

1459
01:04:27,920 --> 01:04:30,400
Speaker 16: people to say to get away with doing what they

1460
01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:32,600
Speaker 16: wanted to do. Right, these are these are as you said,

1461
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:34,880
Speaker 16: they are the image itself, they are true believers in

1462
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:37,560
Speaker 16: the spectacle, and as such break the fourth wall, right

1463
01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:39,760
Speaker 16: if we're going to use a theater metaphor here as such,

1464
01:04:39,840 --> 01:04:42,320
Speaker 16: they end up they end up like just destroying it.

1465
01:04:42,400 --> 01:04:46,840
Speaker 16: And I think Trump's power was that he could puncture

1466
01:04:46,880 --> 01:04:49,960
Speaker 16: the spectacle, right, and then there were all the people

1467
01:04:50,200 --> 01:04:52,320
Speaker 16: you as you describe, and the people who make the spectacle,

1468
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:53,880
Speaker 16: maintain the image, make the image.

1469
01:04:54,040 --> 01:04:55,000
Speaker 15: They were around him.

1470
01:04:55,160 --> 01:04:57,520
Speaker 16: So they would just they would just close up the puncture,

1471
01:04:57,520 --> 01:04:59,920
Speaker 16: they would close up the susture. They'd work really really hard, right.

1472
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:01,360
Speaker 16: So what I mean by that is like Trump would

1473
01:05:01,360 --> 01:05:05,120
Speaker 16: say something absolutely unhinged, and the New York Times would

1474
01:05:05,120 --> 01:05:08,200
Speaker 16: be like the controversial statement from President Trump, right, which

1475
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:10,720
Speaker 16: like completely normalizes it, and like everyone would sort of

1476
01:05:10,720 --> 01:05:13,280
Speaker 16: pretend that he hadn't just said the most unhinged lunatication.

1477
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:15,120
Speaker 16: And this is the first administration I'm talking about, right,

1478
01:05:15,600 --> 01:05:17,360
Speaker 16: Like people would just pretend that it was normal.

1479
01:05:17,560 --> 01:05:19,840
Speaker 12: Yeah, that he was speaking of four seasons total landscage.

1480
01:05:19,880 --> 01:05:24,680
Speaker 16: Yeah, right, like just like shit would happen exactly and

1481
01:05:24,720 --> 01:05:26,560
Speaker 16: everyone would sort of try it would normalize it. And

1482
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:30,960
Speaker 16: that normalization repaired the fabric of the spectacle. And it

1483
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:33,920
Speaker 16: made Trump's fans really happy because you get to watch

1484
01:05:34,480 --> 01:05:38,720
Speaker 16: August institutions such as the Washington Post going over backwards

1485
01:05:38,760 --> 01:05:43,560
Speaker 16: to make an obvious, obscene lie seem like a reasonable claim. Right,

1486
01:05:43,760 --> 01:05:46,760
Speaker 16: So they were humiliated in fixing the spectacle behind him

1487
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:50,560
Speaker 16: as he punctured it. Right, But he he has actually

1488
01:05:50,600 --> 01:05:54,960
Speaker 16: too successfully gotten rid of everyone who did that repair.

1489
01:05:55,520 --> 01:05:58,160
Speaker 16: He actually thought they were his enemies, the Rhinos, right,

1490
01:05:58,160 --> 01:06:01,520
Speaker 16: the Republicans who kept him in line, the Democrats, the media.

1491
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:02,920
Speaker 15: They have been purged.

1492
01:06:02,960 --> 01:06:05,640
Speaker 16: They have all been purged and controlled, and now they

1493
01:06:05,680 --> 01:06:08,480
Speaker 16: all just repeat what he says. And what ends up

1494
01:06:08,480 --> 01:06:11,720
Speaker 16: happening is that the spectacle just remains torn and people

1495
01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:15,120
Speaker 16: see through it like it's just not working anymore. And

1496
01:06:15,160 --> 01:06:18,400
Speaker 16: I think what's scary is that it still feels like

1497
01:06:18,440 --> 01:06:21,440
Speaker 16: they're repairing the spectacle around his claims because the entire

1498
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:23,360
Speaker 16: media is speaking as one, and the Democrats are speaking

1499
01:06:23,360 --> 01:06:25,240
Speaker 16: as one, and the Republicans are speaking as one, and

1500
01:06:25,280 --> 01:06:29,520
Speaker 16: they're all agreeing. You know, we imagine someone else, John

1501
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:32,280
Speaker 16: Q Public sitting there and seeing that and going, oh, okay,

1502
01:06:32,280 --> 01:06:34,120
Speaker 16: it's all pretty normal, Like, oh, Charlie Kirk was a

1503
01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:36,120
Speaker 16: good guy. You know, we sort of project that that

1504
01:06:36,160 --> 01:06:40,840
Speaker 16: person is there. But actually more and more people who

1505
01:06:40,880 --> 01:06:43,400
Speaker 16: would have been like that in the first regime are like, well,

1506
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:44,480
Speaker 16: I don't believe any of this shit.

1507
01:06:44,720 --> 01:06:47,600
Speaker 12: Yeah, yeah, And I think it's also we're saying, like

1508
01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:49,640
Speaker 12: the way that we're talking about this in terms of

1509
01:06:49,640 --> 01:06:51,760
Speaker 12: his and popularity and reality, and you know, in terms

1510
01:06:51,800 --> 01:06:53,720
Speaker 12: of why it feels like this, it doesn't mean that

1511
01:06:53,960 --> 01:06:57,760
Speaker 12: there's not horrible shit happening constantly, right, And that's the

1512
01:06:57,840 --> 01:07:00,160
Speaker 12: other part of his ability to sort of eliminate that,

1513
01:07:00,200 --> 01:07:03,440
Speaker 12: the legitimization part of the spectacle was that like that

1514
01:07:03,720 --> 01:07:05,960
Speaker 12: it was to some extent restraining him, right, Like, that's

1515
01:07:05,960 --> 01:07:08,320
Speaker 12: the reason why there wasn't just like there were a

1516
01:07:08,360 --> 01:07:10,000
Speaker 12: bunch of deportations in their Trump There are a bunch

1517
01:07:10,000 --> 01:07:15,760
Speaker 12: of deportations under Biden. The thing that's happening now is

1518
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:19,880
Speaker 12: not the thing that was happening before, right, Yeah, the

1519
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:24,040
Speaker 12: Secretary of the Interior wasn't showing up at like five

1520
01:07:24,240 --> 01:07:27,240
Speaker 12: thirty in the morning in a suburb of Chicago to

1521
01:07:27,320 --> 01:07:29,960
Speaker 12: blow up someone's door and drag a bunch of American

1522
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:33,040
Speaker 12: citizens out of their house. Like that was like not

1523
01:07:33,520 --> 01:07:37,240
Speaker 12: happening yeah before, And that's off. It's just you know,

1524
01:07:37,360 --> 01:07:43,240
Speaker 12: it's unbelievably horrifying. And it's also not popular, like even

1525
01:07:43,520 --> 01:07:46,440
Speaker 12: those approval rating numbers, right, Like, you know, like his

1526
01:07:46,480 --> 01:07:49,360
Speaker 12: immigration policy in theory is the most popular thing he's doing.

1527
01:07:49,480 --> 01:07:55,760
Speaker 12: And also ICE can't do mass, large scale raids because

1528
01:07:55,800 --> 01:07:58,280
Speaker 12: if they stay in one place for too long, so

1529
01:07:58,360 --> 01:08:00,760
Speaker 12: many people will show up. They can't do it. And

1530
01:08:00,800 --> 01:08:03,640
Speaker 12: you know, and the lightning raids that they've been doing

1531
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:07,240
Speaker 12: have been really brutal and really effective, but like those

1532
01:08:07,280 --> 01:08:10,920
Speaker 12: are not the tactics a stormtrooper force that broadly has

1533
01:08:10,960 --> 01:08:14,720
Speaker 12: the has popular consents. Yeah, right, they don't move like that.

1534
01:08:15,320 --> 01:08:17,840
Speaker 12: And you know, I talked about this. I guess it'll

1535
01:08:17,880 --> 01:08:20,599
Speaker 12: be like two weeks ago on executive's order. But like

1536
01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:25,240
Speaker 12: people are like stopping these raids in like Wheton. Like

1537
01:08:25,439 --> 01:08:28,240
Speaker 12: Wheton used to be literally the center of the base

1538
01:08:28,280 --> 01:08:31,320
Speaker 12: of power of like the Bush administration moral majority shit.

1539
01:08:31,520 --> 01:08:34,639
Speaker 12: For like forty years, this was like the center of

1540
01:08:34,680 --> 01:08:39,120
Speaker 12: the Christian Right. And they have lost Wheton. It's been

1541
01:08:39,200 --> 01:08:41,880
Speaker 12: like electing democrats, and it's not just leatin democrats, like

1542
01:08:42,320 --> 01:08:44,519
Speaker 12: the speed of which has moved from electing democrats to

1543
01:08:44,680 --> 01:08:47,000
Speaker 12: like a bunch of people showed up and are stopping

1544
01:08:47,040 --> 01:08:50,760
Speaker 12: like lightning ice raids, which is really impressive, genuinely, very

1545
01:08:50,800 --> 01:08:53,080
Speaker 12: very impressive organizing. It's very hard to do. Most times

1546
01:08:53,120 --> 01:08:54,800
Speaker 12: it doesn't work because you can't get there fast enough.

1547
01:08:55,080 --> 01:08:57,600
Speaker 12: And somehow again like the place that used to be

1548
01:08:57,640 --> 01:09:00,559
Speaker 12: the capital of the moral majority, it's like Jerry Well's

1549
01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:05,320
Speaker 12: fucking like home domain, right, like the epicenter of like

1550
01:09:05,360 --> 01:09:09,040
Speaker 12: of the Christian Right is in doing the anti ice

1551
01:09:09,120 --> 01:09:12,519
Speaker 12: raid shit like what like and this is the thing

1552
01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:13,760
Speaker 12: as we're going on for like you know, probably like

1553
01:09:13,800 --> 01:09:15,960
Speaker 12: four or five years, but like them do it like

1554
01:09:16,640 --> 01:09:20,840
Speaker 12: really serious, very good direct action. The entire terrain of

1555
01:09:20,880 --> 01:09:23,800
Speaker 12: the world is shifting beneath us, while all of these

1556
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:27,080
Speaker 12: people constantly try to like paint over this like little

1557
01:09:27,120 --> 01:09:29,280
Speaker 12: tiny scaffolding they've set up to be like no, no,

1558
01:09:29,320 --> 01:09:30,960
Speaker 12: the ground's still there. There's all these holes in the

1559
01:09:31,000 --> 01:09:32,760
Speaker 12: middle of it, but like, you know, we're gonna put

1560
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:35,479
Speaker 12: us some tarp that like looks like the sky beneath

1561
01:09:35,520 --> 01:09:37,639
Speaker 12: it. It's like, wait, why is the sky down? Yeah, don't

1562
01:09:37,640 --> 01:09:41,200
Speaker 12: ask questions to keep walking exactly.

1563
01:09:41,600 --> 01:09:43,160
Speaker 16: And I think that's like, I think that's really important

1564
01:09:43,200 --> 01:09:45,080
Speaker 16: and a thing that I think happens sometimes when I

1565
01:09:45,120 --> 01:09:47,280
Speaker 16: sort of make this analysis with my friends. I think

1566
01:09:47,280 --> 01:09:49,519
Speaker 16: they think that I'm saying that like fascism isn't here,

1567
01:09:50,120 --> 01:09:51,960
Speaker 16: or that like this isn't a fascist regime, or that

1568
01:09:52,040 --> 01:09:53,080
Speaker 16: like they don't want to like.

1569
01:09:53,360 --> 01:09:55,639
Speaker 15: Do Nazism like they very clearly do.

1570
01:09:55,920 --> 01:09:56,160
Speaker 12: Yeah.

1571
01:09:56,240 --> 01:09:58,800
Speaker 15: My analysis has been like since February.

1572
01:09:58,840 --> 01:10:01,160
Speaker 16: I mean part of what's happened is in February, when

1573
01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:02,479
Speaker 16: the dose stuff was going on, I was like, well,

1574
01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:04,960
Speaker 16: the American Republic is over, like we'll never be able

1575
01:10:05,000 --> 01:10:07,120
Speaker 16: to go back, Like now what do we do? So

1576
01:10:07,160 --> 01:10:09,640
Speaker 16: I think like a lot of the disjuncture and the

1577
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:12,760
Speaker 16: confusion and the craziness feeling that people are having is

1578
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:16,360
Speaker 16: because people are coming to those realizations on separate timelines.

1579
01:10:16,360 --> 01:10:18,280
Speaker 16: Because it's really hard to accept it's a hard and

1580
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:21,479
Speaker 16: complicated thing to feel and to recognize that actually, like

1581
01:10:21,880 --> 01:10:24,760
Speaker 16: this is dying, Like this is a dying regime and

1582
01:10:24,800 --> 01:10:28,200
Speaker 16: a dying empire, and like that does not mean it's

1583
01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:30,840
Speaker 16: less dangerous. In fact, historically it's often more dangerous and

1584
01:10:30,920 --> 01:10:34,640
Speaker 16: it's death throws. And it does not mean when you

1585
01:10:34,680 --> 01:10:36,600
Speaker 16: and I talk about him being ineffective, it does not

1586
01:10:36,760 --> 01:10:39,760
Speaker 16: mean that the stuff he's doing isn't terrifying. We're both

1587
01:10:39,880 --> 01:10:42,360
Speaker 16: trans women who organize with other trans women, Like we

1588
01:10:42,439 --> 01:10:44,360
Speaker 16: know about it, okay, y'all, Like we are dealing with

1589
01:10:44,400 --> 01:10:48,680
Speaker 16: the fallout all the time. But like the situations that

1590
01:10:49,200 --> 01:10:52,800
Speaker 16: we could be going through, the situations that they could

1591
01:10:52,840 --> 01:10:55,400
Speaker 16: be achieving that with the public that they were handed

1592
01:10:55,400 --> 01:10:58,479
Speaker 16: by the Biden administration that had broken solidarity around COVID,

1593
01:10:58,640 --> 01:11:01,280
Speaker 16: that had created an effective red scare around Gaza, that

1594
01:11:01,360 --> 01:11:04,439
Speaker 16: had like you know, basically perpetuated two genocides and gotten

1595
01:11:04,439 --> 01:11:06,840
Speaker 16: liberals to like say that that was normal and good, right,

1596
01:11:07,200 --> 01:11:10,320
Speaker 16: Like that was a very very scary public yea to

1597
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:14,960
Speaker 16: hand to Nazis two now with nukes, right, And like

1598
01:11:15,200 --> 01:11:17,680
Speaker 16: I think, you know, we do ourselves a disservice when

1599
01:11:17,680 --> 01:11:20,880
Speaker 16: the only fascist regimes, we think about are Nazism and

1600
01:11:20,960 --> 01:11:23,000
Speaker 16: we think that like it's inevitably like going to be

1601
01:11:23,120 --> 01:11:25,519
Speaker 16: just like the Nazis, or even if we just say, well,

1602
01:11:25,560 --> 01:11:27,280
Speaker 16: it could be more like Italy. Like there are dozens

1603
01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:30,599
Speaker 16: of different dictatorships. Yeah, across the history. I don't expect

1604
01:11:30,600 --> 01:11:32,680
Speaker 16: everyone to study all of them, but like, but like

1605
01:11:32,720 --> 01:11:33,840
Speaker 16: it's worth understanding.

1606
01:11:34,000 --> 01:11:38,639
Speaker 12: Learn a third one, pick one, literally pick one, fucking

1607
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:41,719
Speaker 12: anyone that's got the maid too. There are so many

1608
01:11:42,120 --> 01:11:43,160
Speaker 12: like you have you are.

1609
01:11:43,240 --> 01:11:44,479
Speaker 5: Spoiled for exactly.

1610
01:11:44,520 --> 01:11:46,080
Speaker 15: Yeah, yeah, you can do. You could do if you know,

1611
01:11:46,240 --> 01:11:46,960
Speaker 15: pick a decade.

1612
01:11:47,160 --> 01:11:48,760
Speaker 16: You know, you like the seventies, go for swat though

1613
01:11:48,760 --> 01:11:52,320
Speaker 16: in Indonesia, you like the eighties Brazilian military dictatorship, no problem, Like,

1614
01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:54,040
Speaker 16: or you could do Korea in the eighties. You've got

1615
01:11:54,040 --> 01:11:57,320
Speaker 16: lots of choices. Oh, the fifties, go for Greece, no problem, don't.

1616
01:11:57,120 --> 01:11:57,640
Speaker 15: Worry about it.

1617
01:11:57,800 --> 01:11:59,800
Speaker 16: The reason that I bring all that up is just

1618
01:11:59,800 --> 01:12:03,240
Speaker 16: to say that, like, things are really bad and if

1619
01:12:03,320 --> 01:12:06,880
Speaker 16: we don't, you know, throw down, this will successfully build

1620
01:12:07,560 --> 01:12:10,640
Speaker 16: an authoritarian fascist state eventually, just by the sheer inertia

1621
01:12:10,680 --> 01:12:13,160
Speaker 16: of the power that they have available on the time

1622
01:12:13,200 --> 01:12:16,240
Speaker 16: that they can wait. But as you're saying, and as

1623
01:12:16,360 --> 01:12:20,040
Speaker 16: I've been sort of seeing, also, there's tremendous amounts of resistance.

1624
01:12:20,240 --> 01:12:23,680
Speaker 16: It is completely uncovered. It is not being seen. But

1625
01:12:23,760 --> 01:12:26,360
Speaker 16: because they live in the spectacle that they themselves have made,

1626
01:12:26,920 --> 01:12:30,639
Speaker 16: they also don't see and understand their level of resistance.

1627
01:12:30,680 --> 01:12:33,439
Speaker 16: Like they've just organized the FBI, right they fired about

1628
01:12:33,479 --> 01:12:35,800
Speaker 16: like was it like a fifth of FBI agents like

1629
01:12:35,840 --> 01:12:38,360
Speaker 16: headed agents, and then like a bunch more are now

1630
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:41,479
Speaker 16: doing like street crime and are like being put into

1631
01:12:41,479 --> 01:12:42,040
Speaker 16: ice raids.

1632
01:12:42,040 --> 01:12:43,920
Speaker 15: And people talk about that as being terrifying, and it

1633
01:12:43,960 --> 01:12:44,559
Speaker 15: is terrifying.

1634
01:12:44,680 --> 01:12:47,120
Speaker 16: The desire they have to do really brutal ice raids

1635
01:12:47,120 --> 01:12:49,560
Speaker 16: and to use every resource available in them is scary.

1636
01:12:50,000 --> 01:12:53,120
Speaker 16: But also if they don't have the FBI's eyes on

1637
01:12:53,160 --> 01:12:54,040
Speaker 16: the ball.

1638
01:12:53,760 --> 01:12:54,960
Speaker 15: Which they clearly don't anymore.

1639
01:12:54,960 --> 01:12:58,439
Speaker 16: They have redirected the FBI, they are not nearly as

1640
01:12:58,479 --> 01:13:00,439
Speaker 16: cognizant of what's going on in terms of distance as

1641
01:13:00,439 --> 01:13:01,719
Speaker 16: they were even six months ago.

1642
01:13:01,960 --> 01:13:04,280
Speaker 12: No, like if you look at the guy who shot

1643
01:13:04,360 --> 01:13:06,920
Speaker 12: Charlie Kirk, right, this is like Carly Kirk is like

1644
01:13:07,000 --> 01:13:10,080
Speaker 12: their guy. Right that the FBI is so stripped down

1645
01:13:10,160 --> 01:13:11,840
Speaker 12: right now that with a full court press, the only

1646
01:13:11,880 --> 01:13:14,959
Speaker 12: reason they caught that guy was because he didn't understand

1647
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:19,400
Speaker 12: that discord wasn't private, and he like dropped his gun

1648
01:13:19,400 --> 01:13:20,040
Speaker 12: and didn't pick it.

1649
01:13:20,080 --> 01:13:21,680
Speaker 15: Up again, and his dad recognized it.

1650
01:13:21,760 --> 01:13:23,760
Speaker 12: Right, And if he had done those two things, they

1651
01:13:23,840 --> 01:13:27,360
Speaker 12: wouldn't have found him, Like they didn't catch him. He

1652
01:13:27,600 --> 01:13:32,880
Speaker 12: turned himself in, right, And that's again someone assassinated like

1653
01:13:33,080 --> 01:13:37,120
Speaker 12: their guy and they couldn't find him. Like this repressive

1654
01:13:37,120 --> 01:13:40,280
Speaker 12: apparatus it is really really scary and very good at

1655
01:13:40,280 --> 01:13:42,240
Speaker 12: doing the thing that it's focused on doing right now,

1656
01:13:42,320 --> 01:13:45,720
Speaker 12: which is like dragging immigrant families from their homes at

1657
01:13:45,760 --> 01:13:48,360
Speaker 12: like five in the morning by blowing their fucking doors

1658
01:13:48,400 --> 01:13:52,320
Speaker 12: down and like dragging them away to a prison. Right,

1659
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:56,360
Speaker 12: It's not good at anything else. And the thing, right

1660
01:13:56,400 --> 01:13:58,519
Speaker 12: that is a very very good way to create an

1661
01:13:58,560 --> 01:14:02,639
Speaker 12: engine of you know, like immense human misery that who's

1662
01:14:02,640 --> 01:14:04,960
Speaker 12: spectacle they can sell, But it's not actually a good

1663
01:14:04,960 --> 01:14:08,240
Speaker 12: way to hold together an authoritarian dictatorship. We have seen

1664
01:14:09,360 --> 01:14:14,160
Speaker 12: very very successful sort of dictatorships in the last like

1665
01:14:14,479 --> 01:14:17,160
Speaker 12: twenty thirty years, right, yeah, And you know, like they

1666
01:14:17,160 --> 01:14:18,719
Speaker 12: take a bunch of forms. I think, like the most

1667
01:14:18,760 --> 01:14:23,760
Speaker 12: classically like nineteen thirties Nazi Party one is Modi in India, yep,

1668
01:14:24,000 --> 01:14:26,200
Speaker 12: and Modi India has done the thing in the sense

1669
01:14:26,200 --> 01:14:30,240
Speaker 12: of like has really really successfully transformed the consciousness of

1670
01:14:30,320 --> 01:14:34,880
Speaker 12: people in India to this sort of like unbelievably unhinged

1671
01:14:35,160 --> 01:14:39,639
Speaker 12: right wing fascist version of like Hindu supremacy that hasn't

1672
01:14:39,680 --> 01:14:40,839
Speaker 12: happened here.

1673
01:14:40,920 --> 01:14:43,679
Speaker 16: Right, you know, it's worth knowing that the RSS, which

1674
01:14:43,720 --> 01:14:46,280
Speaker 16: is his brown shirts, like has four.

1675
01:14:46,120 --> 01:14:47,040
Speaker 15: Million people in it.

1676
01:14:47,120 --> 01:14:49,320
Speaker 12: Yeah, yeah, right, Like, I mean you know it has million.

1677
01:14:49,400 --> 01:14:52,280
Speaker 16: They have millions of brown Shirts, right, Like Ice is

1678
01:14:52,320 --> 01:14:56,240
Speaker 16: having trouble hiring twelve thousand extra agents in a continent

1679
01:14:56,479 --> 01:14:59,240
Speaker 16: of four hundred million people. Again, this doesn't mean it

1680
01:14:59,360 --> 01:15:01,640
Speaker 16: everything's fine, but yeah, like if you look at that,

1681
01:15:02,000 --> 01:15:03,800
Speaker 16: if you look at Ernolan and Turkey, or you look

1682
01:15:03,800 --> 01:15:07,719
Speaker 16: at Putin and Russia, or even Orbon to a different degree,

1683
01:15:07,720 --> 01:15:11,200
Speaker 16: in Hungary, like they slow rolled it, right, They went

1684
01:15:11,280 --> 01:15:15,400
Speaker 16: through a few elections that were like slightly sketchy but

1685
01:15:15,479 --> 01:15:19,479
Speaker 16: basically normal, like they like, and they just slowly built power,

1686
01:15:19,520 --> 01:15:21,200
Speaker 16: and it took them a decade to get to the

1687
01:15:21,200 --> 01:15:23,400
Speaker 16: point where they were openly doing the authoritarian stuff that

1688
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:27,160
Speaker 16: Trump was trying to do. And like, again there's no rules,

1689
01:15:27,840 --> 01:15:30,240
Speaker 16: it might work what Trump is doing. But like compared

1690
01:15:30,360 --> 01:15:33,400
Speaker 16: to Milay in Argentina, right, who they all loved so much,

1691
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:37,799
Speaker 16: who came into power similarly to Trump started throwing truth

1692
01:15:37,840 --> 01:15:41,000
Speaker 16: bombs everywhere, you know, because like ripped apart and has

1693
01:15:41,040 --> 01:15:43,400
Speaker 16: now had to come hat in hand begging for a

1694
01:15:43,400 --> 01:15:46,760
Speaker 16: bailout to the United States yep, because his whole thing,

1695
01:15:47,240 --> 01:15:49,120
Speaker 16: his regime, fell apart within twenty four months.

1696
01:15:49,240 --> 01:15:49,479
Speaker 12: Yep.

1697
01:15:49,560 --> 01:15:52,960
Speaker 16: There is ultimately a material limit to what you can do.

1698
01:15:53,800 --> 01:15:57,080
Speaker 16: You can't just speak reality into existence for that long.

1699
01:15:57,240 --> 01:15:59,759
Speaker 12: Yeah, And that's the thing, right, if it was possible,

1700
01:15:59,760 --> 01:16:01,960
Speaker 12: did you speak reality into existence, we would all be

1701
01:16:02,000 --> 01:16:05,080
Speaker 12: living on a neo conservatism, right, there would be like

1702
01:16:05,200 --> 01:16:08,400
Speaker 12: a pure, well functioning oil extracting American client state in

1703
01:16:08,400 --> 01:16:10,200
Speaker 12: a rock right now. And I don't know what the

1704
01:16:10,200 --> 01:16:12,719
Speaker 12: fuck they would have done with a guinnessent, but like if, if,

1705
01:16:12,760 --> 01:16:15,040
Speaker 12: if you could just do the thing. And I talked

1706
01:16:15,040 --> 01:16:16,240
Speaker 12: about this on the show. I talked about this on

1707
01:16:16,280 --> 01:16:18,320
Speaker 12: the show all the time, right, the thing the neo

1708
01:16:18,360 --> 01:16:22,080
Speaker 12: conservatives thought they could do with evidence based reality thing, right,

1709
01:16:22,120 --> 01:16:24,040
Speaker 12: where like they they thought that what they could do

1710
01:16:24,200 --> 01:16:27,200
Speaker 12: was just instead of observing reality and creating your positions,

1711
01:16:27,200 --> 01:16:29,240
Speaker 12: from it. They thought they could just purely influence and

1712
01:16:29,240 --> 01:16:31,640
Speaker 12: manipulate reality to become whatever they wanted it to be,

1713
01:16:32,400 --> 01:16:35,360
Speaker 12: and they couldn't. Right, like where is George Bush right now?

1714
01:16:35,880 --> 01:16:39,719
Speaker 12: Right like where is Dick Cheney? Like the Trump administration

1715
01:16:39,880 --> 01:16:44,000
Speaker 12: somehow staggeringly has managed to like they finally found a

1716
01:16:44,040 --> 01:16:47,320
Speaker 12: war crime so bad that John wu the art like

1717
01:16:47,360 --> 01:16:50,280
Speaker 12: the guy who wrote the torture manuals, was like, wait,

1718
01:16:50,320 --> 01:16:53,320
Speaker 12: hold on, you can't just blow up random like boats

1719
01:16:53,320 --> 01:16:57,759
Speaker 12: of people in Venezuela, Like what what? Like I literally

1720
01:16:57,920 --> 01:17:00,559
Speaker 12: had not even occurred to me that it was possible

1721
01:17:00,840 --> 01:17:02,800
Speaker 12: for you to commit a war crime so bad that

1722
01:17:02,800 --> 01:17:04,760
Speaker 12: the guy who off the torture memos was like, hold on,

1723
01:17:04,800 --> 01:17:06,400
Speaker 12: hold on, hold on, Well, I ain't set up for

1724
01:17:06,400 --> 01:17:07,040
Speaker 12: this shit.

1725
01:17:07,360 --> 01:17:14,880
Speaker 16: Like it's yeah, they're absolutely like unhinged. They're horrible and

1726
01:17:15,479 --> 01:17:19,360
Speaker 16: thank god they are so unpopular and so bad at this. Yeah,

1727
01:17:19,439 --> 01:17:21,479
Speaker 16: because if they were just a little bit better at this,

1728
01:17:21,560 --> 01:17:24,280
Speaker 16: I think it's very clear what they want.

1729
01:17:23,840 --> 01:17:27,439
Speaker 12: We're different. We're screwed. Yeah, like we go we go

1730
01:17:27,520 --> 01:17:31,679
Speaker 12: under like four months, but that hasn't happened because they're

1731
01:17:31,720 --> 01:17:36,200
Speaker 12: not good at this and they're tearing apart the very

1732
01:17:36,240 --> 01:17:39,000
Speaker 12: institutional apparattus like Disney, like they're tearing apart the very

1733
01:17:39,000 --> 01:17:41,800
Speaker 12: institutional apparattus is that were designed to like propagate them.

1734
01:17:41,840 --> 01:17:46,000
Speaker 12: Like Trump could have just made peace with Disney, right,

1735
01:17:46,080 --> 01:17:48,320
Speaker 12: Like Trump could have just used you know, like like

1736
01:17:48,360 --> 01:17:51,320
Speaker 12: basically like the way that every other being, like like

1737
01:17:51,360 --> 01:17:54,320
Speaker 12: the way literally the Nazis did right like until like

1738
01:17:54,439 --> 01:17:56,840
Speaker 12: literally until they were forced to break it off dream

1739
01:17:56,920 --> 01:17:58,960
Speaker 12: like World War two, right, which is like used Disney

1740
01:17:58,960 --> 01:18:00,599
Speaker 12: as a propaganda apparat is for you.

1741
01:18:00,920 --> 01:18:03,360
Speaker 16: And Disney was gun shy because of the fight with

1742
01:18:03,479 --> 01:18:06,520
Speaker 16: the fight with Santas didn't go that well for them, Yeah, surprisingly,

1743
01:18:06,560 --> 01:18:08,559
Speaker 16: you know, like they had some trouble with that, and

1744
01:18:08,600 --> 01:18:10,760
Speaker 16: so they were gun shy, like going into the administration,

1745
01:18:10,840 --> 01:18:13,120
Speaker 16: like they were very quiet, like they were not rocking

1746
01:18:13,160 --> 01:18:13,479
Speaker 16: the boat.

1747
01:18:13,520 --> 01:18:15,280
Speaker 15: They were making lots of statements about how like, you know, we.

1748
01:18:15,240 --> 01:18:17,800
Speaker 16: Support it, Like he didn't have to goad them into

1749
01:18:17,800 --> 01:18:20,360
Speaker 16: taking a position in the culture war, Like they were

1750
01:18:20,400 --> 01:18:23,360
Speaker 16: just very glad that they weren't fighting off Da Santis anymore,

1751
01:18:23,360 --> 01:18:26,200
Speaker 16: and that they weren't fighting off you know the Daily Wire,

1752
01:18:26,320 --> 01:18:28,519
Speaker 16: you know, claiming that they were you know, whatever the

1753
01:18:28,560 --> 01:18:30,599
Speaker 16: woke mind virus or whatever the hell, you know. Yeah,

1754
01:18:30,720 --> 01:18:32,400
Speaker 16: Like they were just they were just putting their keeping

1755
01:18:32,400 --> 01:18:34,880
Speaker 16: their heads down, trying to rebuild after the disaster of

1756
01:18:34,920 --> 01:18:37,599
Speaker 16: the pandemic, right, like trying to like get their cruise

1757
01:18:37,640 --> 01:18:39,600
Speaker 16: line back up and like as profitable as it could be.

1758
01:18:39,640 --> 01:18:41,200
Speaker 16: You know, Like they were they were working on like

1759
01:18:41,240 --> 01:18:43,120
Speaker 16: they were just doing their thing, and they were like,

1760
01:18:43,479 --> 01:18:44,720
Speaker 16: no reason Trump should stop that.

1761
01:18:44,760 --> 01:18:46,280
Speaker 15: There's no reason trum should spped that. They is what

1762
01:18:46,320 --> 01:18:46,639
Speaker 15: they thought.

1763
01:18:46,720 --> 01:18:49,640
Speaker 12: No, It's like they were implementing like a lot of

1764
01:18:49,640 --> 01:18:52,200
Speaker 12: the culture wars they wanted in terms of like Okay,

1765
01:18:52,240 --> 01:18:54,360
Speaker 12: we're going back to white people. We're never having another

1766
01:18:54,400 --> 01:18:56,559
Speaker 12: non white character again, like eat shit.

1767
01:18:56,960 --> 01:18:59,680
Speaker 16: Like they canceled they they're canceling TV shows with just

1768
01:18:59,680 --> 01:19:01,640
Speaker 16: like quick your character is Like they're just they're just

1769
01:19:01,680 --> 01:19:04,800
Speaker 16: doing stuff like that. They're they're doing everything that the

1770
01:19:05,280 --> 01:19:08,840
Speaker 16: regime wants. But as you mentioned, he's just sitting there

1771
01:19:08,880 --> 01:19:12,080
Speaker 16: watching TV and like like throwing his remote around and

1772
01:19:12,120 --> 01:19:14,959
Speaker 16: like unfortunately his remote like dictates US policy.

1773
01:19:15,320 --> 01:19:17,599
Speaker 12: M I think that's an important note to close on

1774
01:19:17,640 --> 01:19:21,840
Speaker 12: because like his remote dictates US policy to the extent

1775
01:19:21,920 --> 01:19:25,400
Speaker 12: that everyone pretends that it does. And one of the

1776
01:19:25,400 --> 01:19:27,840
Speaker 12: things that can start happening in the in the end

1777
01:19:27,920 --> 01:19:30,760
Speaker 12: stages of these kind of regimes, is that like the

1778
01:19:31,040 --> 01:19:34,120
Speaker 12: levers of power become unglued from the mechanisms of the state.

1779
01:19:34,560 --> 01:19:35,160
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1780
01:19:35,240 --> 01:19:38,040
Speaker 12: Right, So he just like declared that antifas like a

1781
01:19:38,080 --> 01:19:40,560
Speaker 12: domestic terrorist organization. Right, We're gonna be talking about that

1782
01:19:40,640 --> 01:19:42,560
Speaker 12: later this week, possibly earlier this week. Got to know

1783
01:19:42,560 --> 01:19:48,519
Speaker 12: when this episode's coming out. But that doesn't do anything

1784
01:19:48,760 --> 01:19:51,519
Speaker 12: in and of itself. He's just like waving a magic

1785
01:19:51,560 --> 01:19:53,680
Speaker 12: wander round. But if he doesn't have the repressive apparatus

1786
01:19:53,720 --> 01:19:57,719
Speaker 12: to make that matter, then okay, then then him throwing

1787
01:19:57,720 --> 01:20:02,360
Speaker 12: the remote around isn't like gesturally controlling the arm of

1788
01:20:02,400 --> 01:20:04,040
Speaker 12: like one of the most sophisticated, what's supposed to be

1789
01:20:04,040 --> 01:20:07,160
Speaker 12: one of the most fiscated pressed apparatuses ever. Right, And

1790
01:20:07,360 --> 01:20:11,840
Speaker 12: they rely on both the compliance of the state bureaucracy,

1791
01:20:11,840 --> 01:20:14,200
Speaker 12: which they've been decently good at pulling in line, but

1792
01:20:14,240 --> 01:20:18,080
Speaker 12: also they rely at our compliance for this, and you

1793
01:20:18,080 --> 01:20:21,719
Speaker 12: don't have to comply with them. That's the fun thing

1794
01:20:21,840 --> 01:20:26,000
Speaker 12: about about existence is that they can't just they can't

1795
01:20:26,040 --> 01:20:28,680
Speaker 12: just make it real unless you help them.

1796
01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:30,240
Speaker 16: And as we saw, as you're already talking about the

1797
01:20:30,760 --> 01:20:32,920
Speaker 16: Charlie Kirk Special doesn't go up, right, they say like

1798
01:20:32,960 --> 01:20:35,120
Speaker 16: the yeah, the COVID vaccines are like, we're going to

1799
01:20:35,200 --> 01:20:37,640
Speaker 16: restrict them. And most of the pharmacies are just like

1800
01:20:37,720 --> 01:20:40,120
Speaker 16: just check a box saying you need it, like you know,

1801
01:20:40,240 --> 01:20:43,760
Speaker 16: like not in every state. But again, like these massive institutions,

1802
01:20:43,760 --> 01:20:45,680
Speaker 16: they can't really get them in line, So why are

1803
01:20:45,680 --> 01:20:46,840
Speaker 16: you letting them get you in line?

1804
01:20:47,080 --> 01:20:47,280
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1805
01:20:47,320 --> 01:20:49,560
Speaker 12: And remember, you know, like they had better control of

1806
01:20:49,560 --> 01:20:53,479
Speaker 12: their institutional apparatuses in twenty twenty and the outcome of

1807
01:20:53,520 --> 01:20:56,360
Speaker 12: that was there was a giant uprising and they put

1808
01:20:56,360 --> 01:20:57,960
Speaker 12: the president in a bunker or a thing that he's

1809
01:20:57,960 --> 01:21:00,680
Speaker 12: still mad about to this day. Right, even when it

1810
01:21:00,760 --> 01:21:04,880
Speaker 12: looks like they have total control, they don't. And I

1811
01:21:04,880 --> 01:21:06,479
Speaker 12: don't know if he's gonna like end up in a

1812
01:21:06,560 --> 01:21:10,839
Speaker 12: Hitler bunker. But look, as of right now, as it stands,

1813
01:21:11,120 --> 01:21:13,680
Speaker 12: the record of Trump administration's ending with Trump hiding in

1814
01:21:13,720 --> 01:21:17,519
Speaker 12: a bunker is one hundred percent. So you know, if

1815
01:21:17,520 --> 01:21:19,479
Speaker 12: if if the past is to be a prediction of

1816
01:21:19,479 --> 01:21:23,000
Speaker 12: the future, we could see it again when all of

1817
01:21:23,040 --> 01:21:25,960
Speaker 12: this ship goes to hell and the economy collapses and

1818
01:21:25,960 --> 01:21:29,120
Speaker 12: everyone's like, oh, this was all lie. The whole time. Wow, damn,

1819
01:21:29,240 --> 01:21:38,280
Speaker 12: hey look like you know, and oh god, but I

1820
01:21:38,360 --> 01:21:40,960
Speaker 12: don't know if we can. Uh, we're just gonna, we're

1821
01:21:41,000 --> 01:21:43,000
Speaker 12: just gonna, we're just gonna put a really long leaf

1822
01:21:43,080 --> 01:21:45,200
Speaker 12: over that entire sentence and we're gonna, we're we're gonna

1823
01:21:45,280 --> 01:21:50,280
Speaker 12: leave that sentence as an exercise to the reader, completing

1824
01:21:50,280 --> 01:21:52,479
Speaker 12: the sentence, just figuring out what it was saying, not

1825
01:21:52,560 --> 01:21:57,920
Speaker 12: doing the thing. Okay that this this, this has been.

1826
01:21:57,960 --> 01:22:00,720
Speaker 12: It could happen here, Vicky. Where can people you order

1827
01:22:00,760 --> 01:22:01,200
Speaker 12: your book?

1828
01:22:01,520 --> 01:22:04,160
Speaker 16: Oh, you can go to Haymarket and that's who's putting

1829
01:22:04,160 --> 01:22:05,640
Speaker 16: it out and they have a list of links. You

1830
01:22:05,680 --> 01:22:09,000
Speaker 16: can also go to my blue Sky account vickyacab dot

1831
01:22:09,040 --> 01:22:11,920
Speaker 16: b Sky dot social and you can find a link there.

1832
01:22:12,120 --> 01:22:13,960
Speaker 12: Yeah, And where can people find you in your work?

1833
01:22:14,360 --> 01:22:17,360
Speaker 16: Car Shiny things dot com. It's the Collective Anarchist Writers

1834
01:22:17,920 --> 01:22:19,360
Speaker 16: or any other acronym you like.

1835
01:22:19,439 --> 01:22:22,479
Speaker 15: C AW. That's where I'm working the most regularly.

1836
01:22:22,560 --> 01:22:24,599
Speaker 12: Now, good crowth, heming. That's great, that's great.

1837
01:22:24,600 --> 01:22:25,360
Speaker 15: It's Corvid based.

1838
01:22:25,560 --> 01:22:28,120
Speaker 12: Yeah, we love a Corvid based economy.

1839
01:22:29,320 --> 01:22:31,559
Speaker 15: Thanks so much for having me Amiya, Yeah, thanks for

1840
01:22:31,600 --> 01:22:32,040
Speaker 15: coming on.

1841
01:22:48,920 --> 01:22:52,639
Speaker 13: Hello and welcome to the podcast. It's me James today,

1842
01:22:52,880 --> 01:22:55,719
Speaker 13: and I'm very lucky to be joined by a couple

1843
01:22:55,720 --> 01:22:58,559
Speaker 13: of people who I am about to introduce to discuss

1844
01:22:58,600 --> 01:23:02,040
Speaker 13: the very important topic of does Tyler and O'll give

1845
01:23:02,080 --> 01:23:05,200
Speaker 13: your baby autism? I think we probably already know the answer,

1846
01:23:05,200 --> 01:23:07,559
Speaker 13: but nonetheless we have half an hour to talk about it.

1847
01:23:07,640 --> 01:23:13,160
Speaker 13: So you were here doctor Carve Hodeth laughing, that's uh me,

1848
01:23:13,240 --> 01:23:15,320
Speaker 13: that's cave. Yeah. Many of you will know him, but

1849
01:23:15,360 --> 01:23:17,360
Speaker 13: he's a medical doctor and host of the House of

1850
01:23:17,640 --> 01:23:20,960
Speaker 13: Pod podcast. And I'm also joined by Tyler Black, who's

1851
01:23:20,960 --> 01:23:25,800
Speaker 13: a psychologist in British Columbia. Welcome Tyler, chiatrist, psychiatrist.

1852
01:23:26,080 --> 01:23:29,920
Speaker 7: Fucked it up? Them fighting words, James, them fighting.

1853
01:23:29,920 --> 01:23:32,599
Speaker 13: Yeah, no, I know, yeah, this is yes. Like when

1854
01:23:32,640 --> 01:23:35,840
Speaker 13: people call me a sociologists, I understand, or even worse,

1855
01:23:35,960 --> 01:23:37,040
Speaker 13: an anthropologist.

1856
01:23:37,479 --> 01:23:39,880
Speaker 7: It's a pleasure to be here and no worries. Tyler

1857
01:23:39,960 --> 01:23:43,000
Speaker 7: is Canadian, so to see him correct somebody on something

1858
01:23:43,240 --> 01:23:46,200
Speaker 7: makes me happy. I'm very sorry, yeah, but that's why

1859
01:23:46,240 --> 01:23:46,720
Speaker 7: we get him on.

1860
01:23:46,800 --> 01:23:49,479
Speaker 14: He's very sorry, he's very sorry about that. I love

1861
01:23:49,560 --> 01:23:53,000
Speaker 14: Tyler very much. He comes on my show not infrequently.

1862
01:23:53,400 --> 01:23:56,040
Speaker 14: And one really pleasant thing that's happened, one little bright

1863
01:23:56,080 --> 01:23:58,640
Speaker 14: spot in the last I don't know five years of

1864
01:23:58,880 --> 01:24:03,840
Speaker 14: terror that have been happening medically is seeing Tyler gradually

1865
01:24:03,880 --> 01:24:07,960
Speaker 14: over time become grumpier and more willing to fight.

1866
01:24:10,800 --> 01:24:12,880
Speaker 7: That's the only bright spot I've had. Thank you Tyler

1867
01:24:12,920 --> 01:24:13,160
Speaker 7: for that.

1868
01:24:13,240 --> 01:24:17,440
Speaker 13: Yeah, I imagine that's the side effect of your consumption

1869
01:24:17,479 --> 01:24:20,519
Speaker 13: of a seat to metaphana may Yeah.

1870
01:24:20,640 --> 01:24:23,120
Speaker 7: Got a cut back, bro got cut back? Yeah?

1871
01:24:23,280 --> 01:24:25,880
Speaker 13: All right. For those not familiar, where are we talking about?

1872
01:24:26,040 --> 01:24:26,599
Speaker 7: Thailan All?

1873
01:24:26,760 --> 01:24:29,200
Speaker 13: Might be the name you're familiar if you, especially of

1874
01:24:29,240 --> 01:24:32,120
Speaker 13: your American people, like to use brand names a little more.

1875
01:24:32,240 --> 01:24:34,240
Speaker 13: I still find that very confusing, and I've lived here

1876
01:24:34,280 --> 01:24:36,680
Speaker 13: for a better part of two decades. But why are

1877
01:24:36,680 --> 01:24:37,760
Speaker 13: we talking about tail and all?

1878
01:24:37,960 --> 01:24:38,320
Speaker 12: Tyler?

1879
01:24:38,520 --> 01:24:42,280
Speaker 7: Do you want to introduce this concept? Sure so, Yeah.

1880
01:24:42,320 --> 01:24:48,200
Speaker 7: Talent All goes by Paracenamol in UK and other places

1881
01:24:48,200 --> 01:24:50,280
Speaker 7: in the world. It's a ceta minifin here, so it

1882
01:24:50,400 --> 01:24:54,280
Speaker 7: really is not talking about talent although the shorthand that

1883
01:24:54,479 --> 01:24:57,440
Speaker 7: the political people who've been talking about it have specifically

1884
01:24:57,439 --> 01:25:00,479
Speaker 7: called out the brand Talentol, which is bizarre. But this

1885
01:25:00,600 --> 01:25:05,120
Speaker 7: stems from both a mission that RFK Junior when he

1886
01:25:05,160 --> 01:25:08,040
Speaker 7: took over as the HHS sort of had, which was

1887
01:25:08,080 --> 01:25:13,240
Speaker 7: to find the cause of autism, which is his political

1888
01:25:13,320 --> 01:25:16,880
Speaker 7: quest to find some environmental cause. I mean, he started

1889
01:25:16,920 --> 01:25:20,320
Speaker 7: as an environmental lawyer. I don't think he's doing this disingenuously.

1890
01:25:20,400 --> 01:25:23,200
Speaker 7: I think he truly believes there was an environmental cause

1891
01:25:23,200 --> 01:25:27,679
Speaker 7: to autism. But of course RFK wheeled science probably driven

1892
01:25:27,720 --> 01:25:30,599
Speaker 7: by the brain worm, and so he has this way

1893
01:25:30,640 --> 01:25:33,320
Speaker 7: of having a conclusion that and finding the science to

1894
01:25:33,320 --> 01:25:36,880
Speaker 7: support it. And it was very clear that he was

1895
01:25:36,920 --> 01:25:40,960
Speaker 7: going to point towards vaccine vaccine schedule, and at some

1896
01:25:41,040 --> 01:25:43,840
Speaker 7: point this is definitely coming. I think this might be

1897
01:25:43,880 --> 01:25:46,200
Speaker 7: a roundabout way to do it through fevers and talinol.

1898
01:25:46,600 --> 01:25:49,880
Speaker 7: But the talent link is something that has been a

1899
01:25:49,960 --> 01:25:53,120
Speaker 7: question mark. So a really quick aside will be that

1900
01:25:53,200 --> 01:25:57,280
Speaker 7: when drugs are regulated, the drug companies have very little

1901
01:25:57,360 --> 01:25:59,639
Speaker 7: natural interest to study it and pregnant people it only

1902
01:25:59,640 --> 01:26:02,280
Speaker 7: brings the risk. There's no reason to do it. You

1903
01:26:02,320 --> 01:26:05,479
Speaker 7: are required to submit what studies you have on animal

1904
01:26:05,479 --> 01:26:07,720
Speaker 7: toxicity in utero and these types of things, but not

1905
01:26:07,800 --> 01:26:10,799
Speaker 7: really that much for humans, and so the drug companies

1906
01:26:10,880 --> 01:26:13,120
Speaker 7: usually put their hands up and go talk to your

1907
01:26:13,120 --> 01:26:15,800
Speaker 7: doctor about using this, and then the rest of us

1908
01:26:15,800 --> 01:26:19,040
Speaker 7: in medicine have to take that information that's been generated

1909
01:26:19,040 --> 01:26:22,479
Speaker 7: about this medication and try and interpret it on pregnant people.

1910
01:26:22,960 --> 01:26:26,799
Speaker 7: And it creates this system where we create the evidence

1911
01:26:26,880 --> 01:26:29,280
Speaker 7: over the next twenty years in what we call pharmacal

1912
01:26:29,360 --> 01:26:34,160
Speaker 7: vigilids or post marketing studies, where we basically has there

1913
01:26:34,200 --> 01:26:36,320
Speaker 7: been a problem, did we find any birth effects?

1914
01:26:36,320 --> 01:26:36,479
Speaker 5: You know?

1915
01:26:36,880 --> 01:26:39,519
Speaker 7: And we kind of do it backwards. It kind of

1916
01:26:39,560 --> 01:26:41,800
Speaker 7: makes sense because you couldn't really do an RCAT on

1917
01:26:42,000 --> 01:26:44,080
Speaker 7: pregnant women to start with if you didn't know any

1918
01:26:44,080 --> 01:26:47,240
Speaker 7: reason for the for the drug. So it's one of

1919
01:26:47,280 --> 01:26:50,519
Speaker 7: those sort of loopholes. And so this natural conversation has

1920
01:26:50,560 --> 01:26:53,360
Speaker 7: resulted in science that points in a number of directions.

1921
01:26:54,120 --> 01:26:56,799
Speaker 7: Does the seed of Menifhite cause autism? Can't be answered

1922
01:26:56,800 --> 01:26:59,120
Speaker 7: by the current science because it's all cohort data, it's

1923
01:26:59,120 --> 01:27:03,280
Speaker 7: looking backward, it's looking at populations. It's confounded. How are

1924
01:27:03,320 --> 01:27:06,120
Speaker 7: The best study was published in twenty twenty four, which

1925
01:27:06,160 --> 01:27:08,400
Speaker 7: makes the timing of this announcement really awkward. There was

1926
01:27:08,439 --> 01:27:11,280
Speaker 7: two point five million people. It was a believe it's

1927
01:27:11,280 --> 01:27:15,799
Speaker 7: a Danish study, Swedish study, okay, And in that study

1928
01:27:15,840 --> 01:27:18,960
Speaker 7: there was a small link found, But because they had

1929
01:27:18,960 --> 01:27:21,439
Speaker 7: two point five million people, they could check that link

1930
01:27:21,479 --> 01:27:24,719
Speaker 7: by looking at sibling pairs within that two point five million.

1931
01:27:25,280 --> 01:27:28,479
Speaker 7: So in that group they had sixteen thousand sibling pairs

1932
01:27:28,520 --> 01:27:32,760
Speaker 7: both exposed to and not exposed to acetaminifin, and lo

1933
01:27:32,920 --> 01:27:35,200
Speaker 7: and behold, they found that there was no relationship there.

1934
01:27:35,240 --> 01:27:38,920
Speaker 7: So this really is one of the more definitive correlational

1935
01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:42,519
Speaker 7: studies that says pretty much, any effect we're seeing is

1936
01:27:42,720 --> 01:27:45,920
Speaker 7: probably confounded. It probably isn't due to the assineminifin. Though

1937
01:27:46,280 --> 01:27:49,120
Speaker 7: there are some animal studies that might hint at it,

1938
01:27:49,120 --> 01:27:51,559
Speaker 7: it appears to be minor and Caves are about to

1939
01:27:51,600 --> 01:27:53,720
Speaker 7: say something, Yeah, first of all, that's exactly right.

1940
01:27:53,760 --> 01:27:56,320
Speaker 14: I think that there are a lot of things that

1941
01:27:56,479 --> 01:27:59,960
Speaker 14: Maha and RFK Junior talk about there are just insane

1942
01:28:00,240 --> 01:28:03,120
Speaker 14: and you can dismiss out of hand. This is a

1943
01:28:03,240 --> 01:28:06,680
Speaker 14: topic that is not complete rubbish. It is something that

1944
01:28:06,720 --> 01:28:08,519
Speaker 14: has a little bit of nuance and we can talk

1945
01:28:08,560 --> 01:28:12,160
Speaker 14: about as Tyler was just mentioning, there is some evidence

1946
01:28:12,280 --> 01:28:16,000
Speaker 14: that there might be a small relationship, but the real

1947
01:28:16,080 --> 01:28:20,040
Speaker 14: key is determining if it's a causal relationship or just correlative.

1948
01:28:20,200 --> 01:28:23,240
Speaker 14: Are they just related for some reason or another, or

1949
01:28:23,280 --> 01:28:25,960
Speaker 14: are they caused by each other? And that study that

1950
01:28:26,000 --> 01:28:28,320
Speaker 14: he talked about, that Swedish study looked at about one

1951
01:28:28,400 --> 01:28:32,240
Speaker 14: hundred and eighty thousand infants that had parents that were

1952
01:28:32,280 --> 01:28:36,599
Speaker 14: exposed to sudemenafin. What's really elegant about that is that

1953
01:28:36,640 --> 01:28:39,120
Speaker 14: it looked at the siblings. That's why it's such an

1954
01:28:39,160 --> 01:28:42,000
Speaker 14: important study. And that's what I say, it closes the

1955
01:28:42,000 --> 01:28:44,360
Speaker 14: door on the matter. No, I agree with Tyler. I

1956
01:28:44,360 --> 01:28:47,840
Speaker 14: think the preponderance of evidence now is that there is

1957
01:28:47,880 --> 01:28:51,040
Speaker 14: no connection between town law and autism. But I don't

1958
01:28:51,080 --> 01:28:53,920
Speaker 14: know if this study totally closes the door. It is

1959
01:28:54,040 --> 01:28:57,680
Speaker 14: really well done though. So they showed that if you

1960
01:28:57,720 --> 01:28:59,960
Speaker 14: look at siblings, if you look at a family, there's

1961
01:29:00,160 --> 01:29:03,320
Speaker 14: no connection. You take out some of the variables, you

1962
01:29:03,360 --> 01:29:06,720
Speaker 14: take out some of the confounders there that can obfuscate

1963
01:29:06,840 --> 01:29:09,599
Speaker 14: or confuse an issue. You take those out of the picture,

1964
01:29:09,800 --> 01:29:13,120
Speaker 14: and you see that there's no relationship between town and menaphin.

1965
01:29:13,360 --> 01:29:16,040
Speaker 14: What's interesting in that same study that we just study,

1966
01:29:16,479 --> 01:29:20,120
Speaker 14: if they then put those back in, if they didn't

1967
01:29:20,160 --> 01:29:22,920
Speaker 14: account for the siblings, then yeah, showed that there is

1968
01:29:22,960 --> 01:29:27,439
Speaker 14: a little bit of evidence, a small basic relationship between

1969
01:29:28,000 --> 01:29:33,680
Speaker 14: you knowcedomenaphin and developing autism. But once you start accounting

1970
01:29:33,760 --> 01:29:37,120
Speaker 14: for some of these these really tough to account for variables,

1971
01:29:37,560 --> 01:29:40,320
Speaker 14: then you start to see that that falls apart, and

1972
01:29:40,720 --> 01:29:43,280
Speaker 14: that implies that most of these other studies are not

1973
01:29:43,479 --> 01:29:45,760
Speaker 14: causal but correlative relationships.

1974
01:29:46,280 --> 01:29:49,479
Speaker 7: The sort of twenty twenty five update is and I

1975
01:29:49,520 --> 01:29:51,880
Speaker 7: think this might have I think, as that we learn

1976
01:29:51,920 --> 01:29:53,560
Speaker 7: more about it, this might have been something that was

1977
01:29:53,600 --> 01:29:59,000
Speaker 7: either solicited or developed in tandem with RFK and his goals.

1978
01:29:59,000 --> 01:30:02,439
Speaker 7: But there was a publication in twenty twenty five by

1979
01:30:02,600 --> 01:30:06,000
Speaker 7: I think the Harvard Dean of Medicine, who has been

1980
01:30:06,000 --> 01:30:11,160
Speaker 7: a plaintiff's witness for attorneys battling talentol in developing autism.

1981
01:30:11,200 --> 01:30:13,960
Speaker 7: So there is a bit of a financial conflict of

1982
01:30:14,000 --> 01:30:14,719
Speaker 7: interest there.

1983
01:30:14,600 --> 01:30:15,240
Speaker 13: Right, Yeah.

1984
01:30:15,280 --> 01:30:19,000
Speaker 7: Baccarelli, Yeah, doctor Buccarelli, who published a study called a

1985
01:30:19,080 --> 01:30:22,920
Speaker 7: Navigation Review, and it's basically a science y version of

1986
01:30:23,120 --> 01:30:24,960
Speaker 7: let me tell a story, and here's the evidence that

1987
01:30:25,000 --> 01:30:28,519
Speaker 7: supports it. Basically, what they did is they took the

1988
01:30:28,600 --> 01:30:32,280
Speaker 7: number of studies, they counted the number that pointed towards

1989
01:30:32,320 --> 01:30:34,680
Speaker 7: talinol as a factor, and they counted against it, and

1990
01:30:34,720 --> 01:30:37,840
Speaker 7: they found about twenty something in total. The majority of

1991
01:30:37,840 --> 01:30:41,120
Speaker 7: them found a link to talent al and autism, and

1992
01:30:41,160 --> 01:30:44,920
Speaker 7: then a minority found no link. But of course that's

1993
01:30:45,080 --> 01:30:47,679
Speaker 7: not really how we do science in twenty twenty five.

1994
01:30:47,840 --> 01:30:50,720
Speaker 7: If we had two studies and you can actually look

1995
01:30:50,720 --> 01:30:52,880
Speaker 7: at his studies, and some of these studies are two

1996
01:30:52,960 --> 01:30:55,920
Speaker 7: hundred people, three hundred people, five hundred people, and then

1997
01:30:55,920 --> 01:30:58,400
Speaker 7: you have this other study that's two point five million

1998
01:30:58,439 --> 01:31:03,679
Speaker 7: people in the real world, that larger study would dwarf

1999
01:31:03,760 --> 01:31:05,679
Speaker 7: the significance of the other ones. But in the way

2000
01:31:05,720 --> 01:31:08,559
Speaker 7: that this navigation study was set up, they're all equal.

2001
01:31:08,680 --> 01:31:13,200
Speaker 7: In fact, he treats the non confounded sample that Cave

2002
01:31:13,479 --> 01:31:16,759
Speaker 7: was mentioning as its own study, and then he treats

2003
01:31:17,120 --> 01:31:20,360
Speaker 7: the controlled sample with siblings as its own studies. So

2004
01:31:20,760 --> 01:31:24,800
Speaker 7: the same study from Sweden was cited twice, one four

2005
01:31:24,840 --> 01:31:28,360
Speaker 7: and one against. You can see how you could shape

2006
01:31:28,439 --> 01:31:30,920
Speaker 7: a narrative, which is what a narrative review is. It's

2007
01:31:30,920 --> 01:31:34,160
Speaker 7: when you shape a narrative. It's not a very sciencey

2008
01:31:34,200 --> 01:31:36,519
Speaker 7: way to do things. We like to do systematic reviews,

2009
01:31:37,120 --> 01:31:40,800
Speaker 7: and this did provide a bit of cover because now

2010
01:31:40,880 --> 01:31:44,040
Speaker 7: everyone in AHHS can point towards this study by the

2011
01:31:44,080 --> 01:31:49,080
Speaker 7: Harvard Deed of Medicine published in BMC Environmental Studies, Peer reviewed,

2012
01:31:49,479 --> 01:31:52,840
Speaker 7: showing that a navigational study shows that there could be

2013
01:31:52,880 --> 01:31:55,200
Speaker 7: a link, but it really if you read the study,

2014
01:31:55,400 --> 01:31:57,720
Speaker 7: any scientists reading it like, yeah, there could be a link,

2015
01:31:57,760 --> 01:32:00,320
Speaker 7: but the largest study in that group suggests there is

2016
01:32:00,320 --> 01:32:00,760
Speaker 7: no link.

2017
01:32:01,560 --> 01:32:04,240
Speaker 13: Right, yeah, in terms of someone's playing games with evidence

2018
01:32:04,360 --> 01:32:07,280
Speaker 13: when they've already decided what the completion would it be. Yeah,

2019
01:32:07,479 --> 01:32:12,479
Speaker 13: let's talk about this fascination with autism that exists in

2020
01:32:12,520 --> 01:32:15,840
Speaker 13: the MAHA. Right, make America healthy again. For those who

2021
01:32:15,840 --> 01:32:20,120
Speaker 13: are not familiar what's happening here, people are probably diagnosed

2022
01:32:20,120 --> 01:32:22,479
Speaker 13: with autism at a higher rate now than they were

2023
01:32:22,640 --> 01:32:26,000
Speaker 13: when these people were young. Right, that is not however, well,

2024
01:32:26,120 --> 01:32:28,240
Speaker 13: I will let you guys explain that. Explain how that

2025
01:32:28,240 --> 01:32:31,200
Speaker 13: doesn't mean that we're giving children autism if that, if

2026
01:32:31,200 --> 01:32:32,800
Speaker 13: my understanding is correct.

2027
01:32:32,760 --> 01:32:36,320
Speaker 7: Sure, I mean I'll jump in first. So there's a

2028
01:32:36,400 --> 01:32:38,439
Speaker 7: number of ways to test whether or not the rate

2029
01:32:38,560 --> 01:32:40,720
Speaker 7: is truly increasing. So the first thing to say is,

2030
01:32:40,960 --> 01:32:44,680
Speaker 7: over the world, we've seen a gradual increase in the

2031
01:32:45,280 --> 01:32:49,760
Speaker 7: global population that has autism from about zero point eight

2032
01:32:49,760 --> 01:32:52,800
Speaker 7: percent of the population to about two percent of the population.

2033
01:32:53,360 --> 01:32:55,800
Speaker 7: That's what's happened over the past twenty five years of

2034
01:32:55,840 --> 01:32:59,200
Speaker 7: studies across the world. Now, that's not exactly the exponential

2035
01:32:59,280 --> 01:33:01,719
Speaker 7: rise that you are and hear about in the United States.

2036
01:33:02,040 --> 01:33:04,120
Speaker 7: The United States has a lot of unique features though.

2037
01:33:04,160 --> 01:33:06,120
Speaker 7: You have a ton of people working in this area,

2038
01:33:06,160 --> 01:33:08,240
Speaker 7: you have a ton of researchers, lots of people have

2039
01:33:08,280 --> 01:33:11,400
Speaker 7: access to healthcare. There's many reasons why global numbers might

2040
01:33:11,439 --> 01:33:15,160
Speaker 7: not look like American numbers, but the general idea behind

2041
01:33:15,160 --> 01:33:18,800
Speaker 7: this increased rate of autism. Most of that increases due

2042
01:33:18,800 --> 01:33:20,920
Speaker 7: to our change in diagnostics and the way that we

2043
01:33:21,000 --> 01:33:24,200
Speaker 7: label things. So when RFK was a kid, there were

2044
01:33:24,280 --> 01:33:27,000
Speaker 7: kids that were excluded from school because they were literally

2045
01:33:27,040 --> 01:33:30,120
Speaker 7: called retarded. They were not allowed to come to school.

2046
01:33:30,200 --> 01:33:32,400
Speaker 7: They were known as spass and goofs, and they were

2047
01:33:32,400 --> 01:33:35,080
Speaker 7: the ones that were made fun of and they struggled

2048
01:33:35,080 --> 01:33:38,000
Speaker 7: throughout life. Now that were they called autistic? No, did

2049
01:33:38,040 --> 01:33:40,519
Speaker 7: they have the same symptoms that the kids today that

2050
01:33:40,560 --> 01:33:44,040
Speaker 7: are being diagnosed with autism have probably, And the way

2051
01:33:44,040 --> 01:33:45,840
Speaker 7: that we can control for that are there's some really

2052
01:33:45,840 --> 01:33:50,519
Speaker 7: elegant studies. One is we take diagnostic criteria from children

2053
01:33:50,960 --> 01:33:54,320
Speaker 7: and then we ask adults currently living today to go

2054
01:33:54,400 --> 01:33:57,400
Speaker 7: through a structured interview looking for those things, and yuess what,

2055
01:33:57,560 --> 01:33:59,840
Speaker 7: we find the same rate in adults that we see

2056
01:33:59,840 --> 01:34:04,120
Speaker 7: in kids. Okay, this idea that it's an exponential right now,

2057
01:34:04,479 --> 01:34:07,040
Speaker 7: I think the rate is also increasing, but I think

2058
01:34:07,080 --> 01:34:09,760
Speaker 7: it's increasing gradually, and this is because the extreme of

2059
01:34:09,800 --> 01:34:13,000
Speaker 7: ages are having kids more often, especially at the older end.

2060
01:34:13,000 --> 01:34:15,720
Speaker 7: And we do know that older age is related to autism,

2061
01:34:15,960 --> 01:34:19,240
Speaker 7: especially older age of the father. And we also know

2062
01:34:19,400 --> 01:34:23,920
Speaker 7: that premature babies and babies with significant developmental disabilities are

2063
01:34:24,000 --> 01:34:28,519
Speaker 7: surviving their postnatal period as soon as they're born. Instead

2064
01:34:28,560 --> 01:34:32,240
Speaker 7: of instantly dying or dying during childbirth or not being

2065
01:34:32,280 --> 01:34:35,360
Speaker 7: able to be resuscitated, they're kept alive and survive and

2066
01:34:35,560 --> 01:34:38,080
Speaker 7: this is good. But this does mean that there's more

2067
01:34:38,240 --> 01:34:41,040
Speaker 7: neurodiversity in the world because of course these children have

2068
01:34:41,360 --> 01:34:43,599
Speaker 7: encountered significant harm. Yeah, I agree with that.

2069
01:34:43,840 --> 01:34:47,160
Speaker 14: I do think that the diagnostic criteria has expanded and

2070
01:34:47,160 --> 01:34:49,000
Speaker 14: that's part of why we see more.

2071
01:34:49,080 --> 01:34:50,960
Speaker 7: But yeah, I think the.

2072
01:34:51,280 --> 01:34:55,639
Speaker 14: Two things we know that are related are some genetic

2073
01:34:55,680 --> 01:34:58,080
Speaker 14: predisposition if there's people in the family that have it,

2074
01:34:58,200 --> 01:35:00,920
Speaker 14: and the older age of patients as we get older,

2075
01:35:01,360 --> 01:35:05,479
Speaker 14: I'm an older father myself. You know, you see more

2076
01:35:05,520 --> 01:35:07,680
Speaker 14: with older patients, and that's more common now than it's

2077
01:35:07,720 --> 01:35:08,519
Speaker 14: ever been before.

2078
01:35:08,600 --> 01:35:10,160
Speaker 7: So these are all a part of it.

2079
01:35:10,280 --> 01:35:12,559
Speaker 14: Once you take a look, for example, going back to

2080
01:35:12,600 --> 01:35:15,679
Speaker 14: that Swedish study in twenty twenty four that was so good,

2081
01:35:16,200 --> 01:35:18,840
Speaker 14: that sibling study looks at the genetics of it, and

2082
01:35:18,880 --> 01:35:21,200
Speaker 14: once you count for the genetics of it, you start

2083
01:35:21,200 --> 01:35:23,400
Speaker 14: to be able to say, Okay, maybe this's other stuff

2084
01:35:23,400 --> 01:35:25,720
Speaker 14: like tile mall isn't important?

2085
01:35:26,040 --> 01:35:26,640
Speaker 7: Yeah?

2086
01:35:26,920 --> 01:35:29,559
Speaker 13: Yeah, is there a gender element to this as well?

2087
01:35:29,760 --> 01:35:30,080
Speaker 7: Yeah?

2088
01:35:30,200 --> 01:35:33,639
Speaker 13: I may have misremembered here. My understanding is that women

2089
01:35:33,720 --> 01:35:36,920
Speaker 13: FEN people tended to be diagnosed at a lower rate

2090
01:35:37,240 --> 01:35:38,400
Speaker 13: until relatively recently.

2091
01:35:38,720 --> 01:35:41,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, so not only is there a gender component, but

2092
01:35:41,720 --> 01:35:44,679
Speaker 7: I do think that the biological sex of the child

2093
01:35:45,120 --> 01:35:47,920
Speaker 7: has an impact on the genetic expression, because it seems

2094
01:35:47,960 --> 01:35:52,080
Speaker 7: like the transmission to males is higher than the transmission

2095
01:35:52,080 --> 01:35:54,960
Speaker 7: to females. So there might be something buffering about that

2096
01:35:55,040 --> 01:35:57,280
Speaker 7: extra X chromosome. You know, we have this shrimpy little

2097
01:35:57,400 --> 01:35:59,680
Speaker 7: Y chromosome that makes us all degenerates. You only have

2098
01:35:59,760 --> 01:36:03,959
Speaker 7: one Y chromosome? Sorry, are you a superman?

2099
01:36:04,040 --> 01:36:07,320
Speaker 13: I have two whys caves y why you know, Harry,

2100
01:36:07,360 --> 01:36:08,519
Speaker 13: my ears are so.

2101
01:36:08,520 --> 01:36:11,280
Speaker 7: There are a number of disorders that the extra X

2102
01:36:11,360 --> 01:36:14,719
Speaker 7: chromosome is protective for, and I do wonder if that's

2103
01:36:14,760 --> 01:36:17,559
Speaker 7: the case for autism. But what's also true is we

2104
01:36:17,640 --> 01:36:20,799
Speaker 7: have stereotypes about what girls should be and what boys

2105
01:36:20,800 --> 01:36:23,920
Speaker 7: should be, and that leads to boys being diagnosed with

2106
01:36:24,000 --> 01:36:28,160
Speaker 7: autism more frequently than girls. So the girl that's quiet

2107
01:36:28,160 --> 01:36:30,760
Speaker 7: and awkward and anxious is labeled as an anxious kid

2108
01:36:31,560 --> 01:36:34,080
Speaker 7: a lot more quickly than when you see that in

2109
01:36:34,120 --> 01:36:36,799
Speaker 7: a boy that the parents think autism or the clinician

2110
01:36:36,840 --> 01:36:39,280
Speaker 7: thinks autism. So there could be some social reasons for

2111
01:36:39,320 --> 01:36:42,280
Speaker 7: that discrepancy as well. And then the last thing I

2112
01:36:42,320 --> 01:36:44,960
Speaker 7: really wanted to say is that the really tragic thing

2113
01:36:45,000 --> 01:36:49,040
Speaker 7: about all of this is profound autism, which autism is

2114
01:36:49,040 --> 01:36:53,040
Speaker 7: the spectrum. Profound autism is extremely disabling for people around

2115
01:36:53,080 --> 01:36:56,800
Speaker 7: the person. Generally, autistic people enjoy their lives, especially if

2116
01:36:56,880 --> 01:36:58,880
Speaker 7: the world is set up in a way so that

2117
01:36:58,920 --> 01:37:02,879
Speaker 7: they can live safely without impediment. Autistic people are perfectly

2118
01:37:02,920 --> 01:37:07,720
Speaker 7: content to be autistic. And this whole idea of autism

2119
01:37:07,760 --> 01:37:12,640
Speaker 7: being this travesty, this epidemic, this blight on society, is

2120
01:37:12,720 --> 01:37:15,599
Speaker 7: really doing a disservice to the wide variety of people

2121
01:37:15,640 --> 01:37:19,080
Speaker 7: that we're now calling autistic, because when our criteria expanded,

2122
01:37:19,720 --> 01:37:23,519
Speaker 7: we created a whole space of autistic people who are

2123
01:37:24,000 --> 01:37:27,160
Speaker 7: very what we would call non profound autism. These are

2124
01:37:27,160 --> 01:37:30,559
Speaker 7: people that have difficulties in social communication or do the

2125
01:37:30,600 --> 01:37:33,200
Speaker 7: same thing over and over despite you know, it being

2126
01:37:33,320 --> 01:37:35,280
Speaker 7: at an abnormal level, but it's what they need to

2127
01:37:35,320 --> 01:37:39,240
Speaker 7: soothe themselves. You know, that will be called autism. Now, Now,

2128
01:37:39,360 --> 01:37:42,120
Speaker 7: would a parent want a child who's in a home

2129
01:37:42,439 --> 01:37:46,240
Speaker 7: constantly rocking back and forth and just soothing themselves by

2130
01:37:46,840 --> 01:37:49,759
Speaker 7: licking their fingers or whatever, you know, some very severe

2131
01:37:49,760 --> 01:37:52,920
Speaker 7: autistic behavior. No, that probably wouldn't be the parent's ideal.

2132
01:37:53,479 --> 01:37:56,040
Speaker 7: But I've worked with so much autism in my life.

2133
01:37:56,040 --> 01:37:58,400
Speaker 7: I'm a child in nodicston in psychiatrist. I've seen so

2134
01:37:58,439 --> 01:38:03,000
Speaker 7: many autistic kids live happy, happy, happy lives artistic. So

2135
01:38:03,240 --> 01:38:05,559
Speaker 7: I'm not a fan of the blight sort of messaging

2136
01:38:05,600 --> 01:38:06,120
Speaker 7: of it either.

2137
01:38:06,439 --> 01:38:09,040
Speaker 13: Yeah, I'm really glad you mentioned that, because that's one

2138
01:38:09,040 --> 01:38:11,000
Speaker 13: of the worst things about In a sense, one of

2139
01:38:11,040 --> 01:38:13,000
Speaker 13: the most damaging things about is where people who are

2140
01:38:13,040 --> 01:38:17,760
Speaker 13: living happy, healthy and fulfilled lives are being like slandered

2141
01:38:17,840 --> 01:38:21,679
Speaker 13: or pathologized to rided by the government of this country

2142
01:38:21,760 --> 01:38:25,200
Speaker 13: and that's fucked. Yeah, and I'm sure will have an

2143
01:38:25,240 --> 01:38:26,880
Speaker 13: impact on those people, because it would have an impact

2144
01:38:26,920 --> 01:38:30,680
Speaker 13: on anyone to see this condition that, as you said, right,

2145
01:38:30,760 --> 01:38:32,880
Speaker 13: like maybe difficult for people who are not familiar with

2146
01:38:32,920 --> 01:38:34,639
Speaker 13: it to navigate, but it doesn't mean that you can't

2147
01:38:34,680 --> 01:38:39,360
Speaker 13: have a fulfilling and happy and very pleasant life. Suddenly

2148
01:38:39,520 --> 01:38:43,560
Speaker 13: suggested it some kind of massively disabling and terrible travesty

2149
01:38:43,840 --> 01:38:46,320
Speaker 13: and that the person who gave birth to you is

2150
01:38:46,320 --> 01:38:48,559
Speaker 13: to blame for this, right right.

2151
01:38:49,160 --> 01:38:51,000
Speaker 14: That's what really bothers me, is like we're always trying

2152
01:38:51,000 --> 01:38:54,800
Speaker 14: to find ways to blame mothers. This is yeah, this

2153
01:38:55,000 --> 01:38:58,120
Speaker 14: is a mantle and I apologize for that. Listener, Please

2154
01:38:58,200 --> 01:39:01,600
Speaker 14: don't at me for that. Yeah, but part of what

2155
01:39:01,640 --> 01:39:07,439
Speaker 14: this is like control over women. And while that Swedish

2156
01:39:07,439 --> 01:39:09,840
Speaker 14: study of mention may not completely close the issue, I

2157
01:39:09,880 --> 01:39:13,160
Speaker 14: think it's pretty clear that the evidence pretty strong against

2158
01:39:13,200 --> 01:39:16,320
Speaker 14: there being a connection between tel nal and to make

2159
01:39:16,360 --> 01:39:20,960
Speaker 14: a whole sale governmental recommendation that as a country, for

2160
01:39:21,040 --> 01:39:24,599
Speaker 14: us to move this way, to make such strong claims,

2161
01:39:24,600 --> 01:39:27,040
Speaker 14: to have a president come out and just say grit

2162
01:39:27,120 --> 01:39:30,479
Speaker 14: your teeth and bear it. To women in regards to

2163
01:39:30,520 --> 01:39:32,920
Speaker 14: the one medicine that we've told them they can use

2164
01:39:33,000 --> 01:39:37,200
Speaker 14: during a pregnancy is insane to me. So there's the

2165
01:39:37,240 --> 01:39:41,920
Speaker 14: autism issue in the insult essentially to that community, but

2166
01:39:41,960 --> 01:39:45,000
Speaker 14: also to women in general. It's insane to me that

2167
01:39:45,040 --> 01:39:47,680
Speaker 14: this is happening right now. Again, there is a bit

2168
01:39:47,720 --> 01:39:49,640
Speaker 14: of nuance to this issue. As I mentioned, it's not

2169
01:39:49,720 --> 01:39:52,320
Speaker 14: like totally insane to ask about and question it, but

2170
01:39:52,520 --> 01:39:58,000
Speaker 14: to make a wholesale directional change in how we recommend

2171
01:39:58,640 --> 01:40:01,799
Speaker 14: managing patients with our pregnant is is nuts?

2172
01:40:02,120 --> 01:40:05,160
Speaker 7: Is just nuts? Yeah, And to piggyback on that, you know,

2173
01:40:05,280 --> 01:40:08,880
Speaker 7: like it's really normal. It was normal advice in twenty

2174
01:40:08,920 --> 01:40:11,920
Speaker 7: twenty four for us to say, yeah, you can use

2175
01:40:11,960 --> 01:40:14,280
Speaker 7: talent all, but try to use it sparingly. We're not

2176
01:40:14,320 --> 01:40:16,799
Speaker 7: really sure use it when you need it though, because

2177
01:40:16,800 --> 01:40:18,840
Speaker 7: we do know that pain and fever and these types

2178
01:40:18,880 --> 01:40:20,960
Speaker 7: of things are bad for the baby, right, you know,

2179
01:40:21,040 --> 01:40:23,320
Speaker 7: So this this kind of way in which it's now

2180
01:40:23,360 --> 01:40:26,799
Speaker 7: been massaged. So I saw a letter from doctor Marty Mackeriy,

2181
01:40:26,840 --> 01:40:31,679
Speaker 7: who's another grifter who's now in the American political system.

2182
01:40:31,680 --> 01:40:35,160
Speaker 7: There has written a letter basically saying at the bottom,

2183
01:40:35,800 --> 01:40:38,679
Speaker 7: use it judiciously, and it is the only one that's approved.

2184
01:40:38,680 --> 01:40:40,600
Speaker 7: So but that's exactly where we were before. There was

2185
01:40:40,640 --> 01:40:43,280
Speaker 7: no need for a past conference. Every doctor was saying,

2186
01:40:43,600 --> 01:40:46,880
Speaker 7: use talent all sparingly, but you can use it. James Tayley,

2187
01:40:46,920 --> 01:40:49,439
Speaker 7: what's driving me crazy about this? Yeah?

2188
01:40:49,479 --> 01:40:49,799
Speaker 13: Please?

2189
01:40:49,880 --> 01:40:53,200
Speaker 14: This administration has done something. Trump in general has done

2190
01:40:53,240 --> 01:40:58,040
Speaker 14: something that has blown my mind, which is somehow, time

2191
01:40:58,120 --> 01:41:02,000
Speaker 14: and time again, I find myself the FAI people and

2192
01:41:02,080 --> 01:41:07,000
Speaker 14: things that I would never want to defend. Like, first

2193
01:41:07,000 --> 01:41:10,000
Speaker 14: of on watching Jimmy Kimmel, I don't know how that happened. Yes,

2194
01:41:10,040 --> 01:41:15,080
Speaker 14: I blame Trump for that. Second, like, tylanol is a

2195
01:41:15,160 --> 01:41:19,160
Speaker 14: dangerous medication. I'm a liver doc. Yes, I feel like

2196
01:41:19,280 --> 01:41:23,559
Speaker 14: talanyl overdose is causing acute liver injury and acute liver

2197
01:41:23,680 --> 01:41:28,040
Speaker 14: failure is a massive, real issue across the world, and

2198
01:41:28,120 --> 01:41:30,920
Speaker 14: it is it's it's a real thing. So there are

2199
01:41:31,080 --> 01:41:34,040
Speaker 14: reasons that we should be watchful of talanol, but this

2200
01:41:34,120 --> 01:41:35,160
Speaker 14: is not one of them.

2201
01:41:35,479 --> 01:41:35,719
Speaker 8: Right.

2202
01:41:36,000 --> 01:41:39,400
Speaker 7: Yeah, Personally, I'm a champion of all talanol should be

2203
01:41:39,479 --> 01:41:42,080
Speaker 7: like the UK, it should be in individually wrapped pieces

2204
01:41:42,840 --> 01:41:45,479
Speaker 7: because there is evidence that that reduces the rate of

2205
01:41:45,520 --> 01:41:48,799
Speaker 7: intentional overdose and even ic overdoses that cause liver failure.

2206
01:41:49,120 --> 01:41:52,040
Speaker 7: So yeah, take away freedoms and right this is the

2207
01:41:52,080 --> 01:41:54,000
Speaker 7: medical freedom crowd. It's amazing.

2208
01:41:54,520 --> 01:41:57,479
Speaker 13: Yeah, we should take an advertising break and then come back.

2209
01:41:57,520 --> 01:41:58,080
Speaker 13: So we'll do that.

2210
01:41:58,160 --> 01:41:59,800
Speaker 14: Oh god, that would be fantastic if I could take

2211
01:41:59,800 --> 01:42:01,720
Speaker 14: it now advertising. I could use an ad right now.

2212
01:42:01,920 --> 01:42:02,320
Speaker 12: So bad.

2213
01:42:03,320 --> 01:42:07,559
Speaker 13: It's going to be for fucking lemon pepper water, which

2214
01:42:07,640 --> 01:42:09,120
Speaker 13: is the only pain treatment you.

2215
01:42:09,120 --> 01:42:13,080
Speaker 7: Should be taking. Bark to put between your teeth.

2216
01:42:14,400 --> 01:42:14,760
Speaker 10: For sure.

2217
01:42:15,720 --> 01:42:17,600
Speaker 13: Go get some leaves and fucking eat them. What can

2218
01:42:17,640 --> 01:42:30,680
Speaker 13: get wrong? All right, we're back. Thank you for that

2219
01:42:30,680 --> 01:42:32,799
Speaker 13: message from Leaf Pain Relief.

2220
01:42:33,360 --> 01:42:33,920
Speaker 7: Hit the spot.

2221
01:42:34,240 --> 01:42:37,240
Speaker 13: It's good. Don't eat leaves. I saw someone posing with

2222
01:42:37,360 --> 01:42:40,320
Speaker 13: a they were taking their graduation pictures. Very nice setting.

2223
01:42:40,640 --> 01:42:42,479
Speaker 13: I'm not going to say the flower, I guess just

2224
01:42:42,520 --> 01:42:45,720
Speaker 13: in case, you can call it quite remarkable hallucinations and

2225
01:42:45,760 --> 01:42:48,080
Speaker 13: it is not a good idea to be like half

2226
01:42:48,120 --> 01:42:50,599
Speaker 13: in it. It's a nice looking flower. If you didn't know,

2227
01:42:50,800 --> 01:42:51,160
Speaker 13: you might have.

2228
01:42:51,439 --> 01:42:52,760
Speaker 7: Well, now I want to know what the hell you're

2229
01:42:52,760 --> 01:42:54,040
Speaker 7: talking about. You're going to tell me later.

2230
01:42:54,080 --> 01:42:56,240
Speaker 13: I'm assuming lived in California. Your whole life.

2231
01:42:56,240 --> 01:42:57,120
Speaker 12: How do you not know this?

2232
01:42:57,200 --> 01:42:58,439
Speaker 13: Yeah, I'll text you afterwards.

2233
01:42:58,439 --> 01:42:59,440
Speaker 7: The dandelions?

2234
01:42:59,520 --> 01:43:01,000
Speaker 5: Is it d I've been told not to.

2235
01:43:04,080 --> 01:43:06,160
Speaker 7: It reminds me though there was a TikTok video of

2236
01:43:06,520 --> 01:43:09,479
Speaker 7: there's been a few of women proudly being pregnant and

2237
01:43:09,640 --> 01:43:12,639
Speaker 7: ingesting talanol. And to be clear, that's an insane response

2238
01:43:12,680 --> 01:43:15,679
Speaker 7: to this problem, like please don't take talanol. As a point,

2239
01:43:16,000 --> 01:43:19,120
Speaker 7: as k was saying before the break, right, helenol does

2240
01:43:19,520 --> 01:43:22,479
Speaker 7: deplete the glutathione in your body, and it is toxic

2241
01:43:22,520 --> 01:43:24,320
Speaker 7: to your liver. If you're a deliver, doesn't have the

2242
01:43:24,320 --> 01:43:28,280
Speaker 7: glue to thion necessary, it directly injures the liver. And

2243
01:43:28,400 --> 01:43:30,360
Speaker 7: this is what happens when you take an overdose, is

2244
01:43:30,400 --> 01:43:33,519
Speaker 7: it overwhelms the amount of gluteothion that your liver has

2245
01:43:33,800 --> 01:43:35,080
Speaker 7: and it causes liver damage.

2246
01:43:36,000 --> 01:43:39,600
Speaker 14: And most pregnant women who want to keep the baby

2247
01:43:39,920 --> 01:43:43,480
Speaker 14: are very judicious to begin with, not just like downing

2248
01:43:44,080 --> 01:43:46,519
Speaker 14: shit willy nilly, you know what I mean, Like they're like,

2249
01:43:46,920 --> 01:43:49,519
Speaker 14: oh God, this is really bad, I bear take something.

2250
01:43:49,760 --> 01:43:52,760
Speaker 14: It talan all, by the way, sucks, you know, as

2251
01:43:52,760 --> 01:43:55,519
Speaker 14: a pain medicine. You know it's not gonna it's like

2252
01:43:55,600 --> 01:43:57,599
Speaker 14: the thing you take when they won't give you anything

2253
01:43:57,600 --> 01:44:01,160
Speaker 14: else is not a great one. So to take it

2254
01:44:01,160 --> 01:44:04,920
Speaker 14: from them without a good reason, without a proposed mechanism.

2255
01:44:05,040 --> 01:44:08,040
Speaker 14: If you're going to make extraordinary claims, you have to have,

2256
01:44:08,680 --> 01:44:12,800
Speaker 14: if not extraordinary evidence or ponderance of it. So this

2257
01:44:12,920 --> 01:44:15,200
Speaker 14: is really bothering me, as you can tell, because it

2258
01:44:15,200 --> 01:44:15,880
Speaker 14: does not exist.

2259
01:44:16,800 --> 01:44:19,080
Speaker 13: Yeah. I think something you mentioned earlier, like when like

2260
01:44:19,120 --> 01:44:20,680
Speaker 13: you said, you're back to to a corner where you're

2261
01:44:20,720 --> 01:44:25,280
Speaker 13: defending like a big farmer and tynel specifically, is the

2262
01:44:25,320 --> 01:44:28,280
Speaker 13: one thing that they've tried to do is like inhabit

2263
01:44:28,520 --> 01:44:32,360
Speaker 13: nuance and then disingenuously use it absolutely.

2264
01:44:32,560 --> 01:44:35,320
Speaker 7: Yes, yes, that's the entire anti vaccines.

2265
01:44:35,800 --> 01:44:38,360
Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, right, and then it leads to people responding

2266
01:44:38,360 --> 01:44:41,160
Speaker 13: in a way that it raises nuance entirely. I understand

2267
01:44:41,200 --> 01:44:43,640
Speaker 13: where we get that response, but like it's it's not

2268
01:44:44,360 --> 01:44:47,280
Speaker 13: the correct response, right, Yeah. People want you to be

2269
01:44:47,400 --> 01:44:50,000
Speaker 13: like this is one hundred percent safe. Right. They want

2270
01:44:50,000 --> 01:44:52,040
Speaker 13: you to say this is actually the perfect medication and

2271
01:44:52,080 --> 01:44:53,679
Speaker 13: it's fine and you should have it for breakfast.

2272
01:44:54,160 --> 01:44:57,880
Speaker 7: And the HHS tweeted out statement that Talanold did in

2273
01:44:57,880 --> 01:45:02,960
Speaker 7: twenty seventeen basically saying we don't recommend talent All and pregnancy.

2274
01:45:03,439 --> 01:45:08,240
Speaker 7: But no drug maker recommends any medication. They all say, specifically,

2275
01:45:08,280 --> 01:45:10,679
Speaker 7: talk to your doctor about this medication. They're not allowed

2276
01:45:10,720 --> 01:45:14,200
Speaker 7: to recommend the medication. Only doctors can't. So when they're

2277
01:45:14,280 --> 01:45:17,360
Speaker 7: using that language and then HHS tweets it out, HHS

2278
01:45:17,439 --> 01:45:20,080
Speaker 7: is tweeting it out specifically to give the illusion that

2279
01:45:20,680 --> 01:45:23,679
Speaker 7: we don't want pregnant people to be taking this medication.

2280
01:45:23,760 --> 01:45:25,920
Speaker 7: They specifically said we don't recommend it, and that's a

2281
01:45:26,000 --> 01:45:28,799
Speaker 7: nuance and that's how they use it. And it just sucks.

2282
01:45:28,920 --> 01:45:31,519
Speaker 13: Right, that's exactly right. And tile Mall, the makers of it.

2283
01:45:31,920 --> 01:45:33,600
Speaker 14: By the way, I am curious about the fact that

2284
01:45:33,720 --> 01:45:36,720
Speaker 14: Johnson Johnson spun Off can view. I wonder if they

2285
01:45:36,800 --> 01:45:38,559
Speaker 14: knew this was coming and that's why they did it

2286
01:45:38,600 --> 01:45:40,400
Speaker 14: the same way that DuPont spun Off.

2287
01:45:40,479 --> 01:45:42,000
Speaker 7: It was only three years ago that they did that,

2288
01:45:42,160 --> 01:45:43,200
Speaker 7: but you didn't know.

2289
01:45:43,160 --> 01:45:45,640
Speaker 14: Like DuPont spun Off, the company in charge of all

2290
01:45:45,640 --> 01:45:48,640
Speaker 14: their pfasts they're Forever chemicals, because they knew it was

2291
01:45:48,640 --> 01:45:49,599
Speaker 14: coming down the pipeline.

2292
01:45:49,640 --> 01:45:51,280
Speaker 7: I wonder if that was the same reason here. Tal

2293
01:45:51,439 --> 01:45:54,760
Speaker 7: Mall did this. Well, they put band Aid and nutrigena

2294
01:45:54,840 --> 01:45:56,559
Speaker 7: in the same group, so I think it was more

2295
01:45:56,640 --> 01:45:59,559
Speaker 7: just to consolidate home stuff. Interesting.

2296
01:45:59,640 --> 01:46:02,880
Speaker 13: Yeah, got a press conference coming next week about banding.

2297
01:46:03,600 --> 01:46:06,560
Speaker 7: It's can sick cause anxiety.

2298
01:46:06,960 --> 01:46:11,759
Speaker 14: Anyways, It's very interesting to me that this is happening

2299
01:46:12,000 --> 01:46:14,240
Speaker 14: at all. Really, I mean, what I thought was interesting

2300
01:46:14,280 --> 01:46:17,280
Speaker 14: about the press conference, and I wonder if you guys

2301
01:46:17,479 --> 01:46:20,639
Speaker 14: picked up on this too, was you know, I was wondering,

2302
01:46:20,640 --> 01:46:23,439
Speaker 14: why is this pivot happening? How can RFK Junior be

2303
01:46:23,439 --> 01:46:26,160
Speaker 14: happy about this? He can't be happy about leaving his

2304
01:46:26,240 --> 01:46:30,280
Speaker 14: crusade against vaccines. The MOHA community behind him clearly doesn't

2305
01:46:30,320 --> 01:46:33,120
Speaker 14: love that aspect, and I wonder why they were pivoting

2306
01:46:33,160 --> 01:46:35,400
Speaker 14: to that, and I wonder what you guys think about that.

2307
01:46:35,479 --> 01:46:39,000
Speaker 14: I did feel that during that press conference, Trump really

2308
01:46:39,000 --> 01:46:42,400
Speaker 14: went out of his way to sort of give lip

2309
01:46:42,439 --> 01:46:44,360
Speaker 14: service that we should we should talk about this too,

2310
01:46:44,880 --> 01:46:47,519
Speaker 14: about vaccines. He talked about vaccines a lot, even though

2311
01:46:47,520 --> 01:46:51,240
Speaker 14: there's no new evidence about vaccines causing problems. And Trump

2312
01:46:51,240 --> 01:46:54,880
Speaker 14: gave this terrible advice about breaking up the vaccines, which

2313
01:46:54,920 --> 01:46:56,479
Speaker 14: we know is a terrible idea because that's going to

2314
01:46:56,560 --> 01:46:58,960
Speaker 14: lead to decrease uptake overall. The more visits you have

2315
01:46:59,000 --> 01:47:01,240
Speaker 14: to go back to us like you're going to do it. Yeah,

2316
01:47:01,240 --> 01:47:02,959
Speaker 14: so the more likely you're not going to be vaccinated.

2317
01:47:03,160 --> 01:47:06,559
Speaker 14: But but it made me wonder why this is happening now,

2318
01:47:06,600 --> 01:47:10,000
Speaker 14: why they decided to make this pivot, and I wonder

2319
01:47:10,200 --> 01:47:11,960
Speaker 14: what you both think about that.

2320
01:47:13,160 --> 01:47:16,160
Speaker 7: My theory is the link with fevers. If I'm being

2321
01:47:16,200 --> 01:47:20,519
Speaker 7: really conspiratorial, I would say that they're going to try

2322
01:47:20,560 --> 01:47:25,599
Speaker 7: and link vaccine induced fever to autism, and they're going

2323
01:47:25,680 --> 01:47:28,200
Speaker 7: to say, oh, we thought it was the title and all,

2324
01:47:28,240 --> 01:47:31,360
Speaker 7: but it turns out to be the vaccines. It's the fever,

2325
01:47:31,439 --> 01:47:34,120
Speaker 7: and the fever is caused by the vaccinees. Yeah.

2326
01:47:34,200 --> 01:47:34,599
Speaker 5: Yeah.

2327
01:47:34,640 --> 01:47:38,479
Speaker 13: My theory is gender. I think that telling pregnant people

2328
01:47:38,520 --> 01:47:41,080
Speaker 13: to suck it up is when you've got you know,

2329
01:47:41,120 --> 01:47:43,160
Speaker 13: your dude's all standing on the podium there right, Like

2330
01:47:43,200 --> 01:47:45,679
Speaker 13: the majority're pregnant people are going to be women. It's

2331
01:47:45,840 --> 01:47:48,800
Speaker 13: something that men have been doing to women for millennia,

2332
01:47:49,280 --> 01:47:52,200
Speaker 13: Like it's a safer bet then yeah, your kid might die,

2333
01:47:52,400 --> 01:47:53,320
Speaker 13: but you know, you never know.

2334
01:47:54,120 --> 01:47:57,120
Speaker 14: Yeah, yeah, which actually is you know that brings up

2335
01:47:57,120 --> 01:47:58,840
Speaker 14: another thing I think we should talk about, which is

2336
01:47:58,880 --> 01:48:01,960
Speaker 14: what Trump kept saying. Trump kept saying don't take it,

2337
01:48:01,960 --> 01:48:04,880
Speaker 14: but what's the worst that happens? Nothing bad will come

2338
01:48:04,920 --> 01:48:09,000
Speaker 14: of it, So it invokes this precautionary principle, which is like,

2339
01:48:09,560 --> 01:48:12,519
Speaker 14: you know, why not avoid the talent all, what's the

2340
01:48:12,560 --> 01:48:15,880
Speaker 14: worst that can happen? And that doesn't work here, No,

2341
01:48:16,120 --> 01:48:18,360
Speaker 14: because we know that people are taking this for a fever.

2342
01:48:18,960 --> 01:48:21,160
Speaker 14: Talme law is not good for inflammation, doesn't work on

2343
01:48:21,200 --> 01:48:23,920
Speaker 14: inflammation the way advilabbiprofen does it, but it can work

2344
01:48:23,920 --> 01:48:27,200
Speaker 14: on a fever. And we know that fever can have

2345
01:48:27,720 --> 01:48:30,760
Speaker 14: some risk at least as much, if not more than

2346
01:48:30,840 --> 01:48:37,320
Speaker 14: tilnol in harm to the baby and harm to the pregnancy.

2347
01:48:37,800 --> 01:48:41,679
Speaker 14: So to me, the precautionary principle just doesn't apply here.

2348
01:48:42,200 --> 01:48:44,360
Speaker 14: And to hear the president, I never heard a president

2349
01:48:44,400 --> 01:48:47,719
Speaker 14: give medical advice before like that. It blew my mind.

2350
01:48:47,800 --> 01:48:50,559
Speaker 14: I felt like I was disassociating while I was watching this.

2351
01:48:50,600 --> 01:48:53,200
Speaker 14: I'm like, this cannot be realized. He said it so unequivocally,

2352
01:48:53,280 --> 01:48:56,680
Speaker 14: don't take talentol, just sec it up. And I tweeted

2353
01:48:57,120 --> 01:49:00,240
Speaker 14: something that I read from doctor Glockenplocken, who's one of

2354
01:49:00,280 --> 01:49:04,200
Speaker 14: my favorite medical comedians. But he said this will kill people,

2355
01:49:04,320 --> 01:49:07,760
Speaker 14: and I do agree. I think people were very incredulous

2356
01:49:07,760 --> 01:49:09,920
Speaker 14: when I said this will kill people, and they were like,

2357
01:49:09,960 --> 01:49:12,280
Speaker 14: what do you mean people dying of a fever. I'm like, yeah,

2358
01:49:12,360 --> 01:49:15,240
Speaker 14: kind of like fevers can be really bad for you,

2359
01:49:15,280 --> 01:49:17,160
Speaker 14: and if you're not going to hospital and the only

2360
01:49:17,200 --> 01:49:19,639
Speaker 14: thing you have is talentol, it's a really good idea

2361
01:49:19,680 --> 01:49:21,400
Speaker 14: to take the talentel. And there's some people that don't

2362
01:49:21,400 --> 01:49:24,120
Speaker 14: go to hospital for lots of reasons, and fevers can

2363
01:49:24,200 --> 01:49:24,599
Speaker 14: kill you.

2364
01:49:24,640 --> 01:49:25,240
Speaker 7: They just can't.

2365
01:49:25,360 --> 01:49:26,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, So I.

2366
01:49:26,439 --> 01:49:30,240
Speaker 7: Disapprove of the Canadian and englishmen referring to the hospital

2367
01:49:30,280 --> 01:49:33,200
Speaker 7: as hospital. They need you guys to refer to it

2368
01:49:33,240 --> 01:49:34,200
Speaker 7: as of the hospital.

2369
01:49:34,200 --> 01:49:36,719
Speaker 13: I've forgotten about that. Yeah, always for the definite article.

2370
01:49:36,840 --> 01:49:39,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, taking it to a hospital, Thank you guys.

2371
01:49:39,720 --> 01:49:41,680
Speaker 13: But yeah, I think you're right, Like there is no

2372
01:49:41,800 --> 01:49:44,360
Speaker 13: like no harm option here, right, Like that is a

2373
01:49:44,760 --> 01:49:47,599
Speaker 13: damage is done when people don't take this, right.

2374
01:49:47,800 --> 01:49:51,040
Speaker 7: I just imagine this poor mom you know at home,

2375
01:49:51,200 --> 01:49:53,559
Speaker 7: you know, doesn't have great healthcare but does have a

2376
01:49:53,560 --> 01:49:57,680
Speaker 7: bottle of talentol and is battling a sorry I'll americanize this,

2377
01:49:57,800 --> 01:50:00,720
Speaker 7: like one hundred and four degree fever. Thank you don't

2378
01:50:00,720 --> 01:50:02,559
Speaker 7: make me do mad? Yeah, you're going to make me

2379
01:50:02,600 --> 01:50:05,200
Speaker 7: do mad, you know, And and you know it's it's

2380
01:50:05,240 --> 01:50:06,920
Speaker 7: around that one hundred and three hundred and four mark

2381
01:50:06,960 --> 01:50:09,679
Speaker 7: where we actually get really worried about the person's brain.

2382
01:50:09,760 --> 01:50:12,080
Speaker 7: We get really worried about their health and what's going

2383
01:50:12,160 --> 01:50:15,280
Speaker 7: to happen, and what would happen to that person in hospital?

2384
01:50:15,320 --> 01:50:18,000
Speaker 7: They would absolutely get talent al right away, prescribed by

2385
01:50:18,040 --> 01:50:21,639
Speaker 7: a doctor right that moment. And so I worry about this.

2386
01:50:22,080 --> 01:50:24,479
Speaker 7: I worry about this mom presenting a hospital with her fever,

2387
01:50:25,400 --> 01:50:27,320
Speaker 7: she's pregnant, and the doctors say, okay, we're going to

2388
01:50:27,360 --> 01:50:29,559
Speaker 7: give you talanol and she says, noah, right, what because

2389
01:50:29,560 --> 01:50:31,400
Speaker 7: I don't want I don't want my child to have autism?

2390
01:50:31,520 --> 01:50:34,040
Speaker 14: Because people are listening to this guy. First of all,

2391
01:50:34,080 --> 01:50:37,400
Speaker 14: again the hospital. Second, they're going to listen to this guy.

2392
01:50:37,640 --> 01:50:38,440
Speaker 12: It's insane.

2393
01:50:38,840 --> 01:50:41,840
Speaker 7: People are really going to take this advice. And I

2394
01:50:41,880 --> 01:50:46,000
Speaker 7: could see, you know, especially the more Trump following people

2395
01:50:46,560 --> 01:50:49,519
Speaker 7: saying you will never give me talinl not in this hospital,

2396
01:50:49,640 --> 01:50:52,920
Speaker 7: right And so so it does sound silly that not

2397
01:50:52,960 --> 01:50:55,519
Speaker 7: taking talanol could kill you. But if you're so scared

2398
01:50:55,520 --> 01:50:58,200
Speaker 7: of talinal because it causes autism, that you don't take

2399
01:50:58,200 --> 01:51:01,080
Speaker 7: it when it's recommended to you by where it's prescribed

2400
01:51:01,080 --> 01:51:04,599
Speaker 7: to you by dark you could die. And I won't

2401
01:51:04,600 --> 01:51:07,800
Speaker 7: be surprised when there are more fever induced deaths in

2402
01:51:07,880 --> 01:51:10,200
Speaker 7: twenty twenty five and twenty twenty six in the United States.

2403
01:51:10,200 --> 01:51:13,120
Speaker 7: I already have the CDC Wonder Data search ready to

2404
01:51:13,160 --> 01:51:15,920
Speaker 7: go because I study mortality all the time, and I

2405
01:51:15,960 --> 01:51:18,880
Speaker 7: am absolutely sure we're going to see a few more

2406
01:51:19,040 --> 01:51:21,000
Speaker 7: fever induced deaths than we would have previously.

2407
01:51:21,520 --> 01:51:36,440
Speaker 13: Geez, yeah, maybe like we can finish up by explaining

2408
01:51:36,479 --> 01:51:39,040
Speaker 13: to people, like, you know, if you're talking to someone

2409
01:51:39,040 --> 01:51:42,360
Speaker 13: in your family, right, someone who maybe isn't a listener

2410
01:51:42,680 --> 01:51:45,840
Speaker 13: sadly to either of our podcasts. I know this isn't

2411
01:51:45,840 --> 01:51:49,000
Speaker 13: directly the area either of you specialized in, but from

2412
01:51:49,000 --> 01:51:52,599
Speaker 13: what I understand, pregnant people like the way that drugs

2413
01:51:52,600 --> 01:51:55,599
Speaker 13: are categorized, as we spoke about earlier on. That's not like, yeah,

2414
01:51:55,640 --> 01:51:57,800
Speaker 13: go ahead and take all of these right, there's like

2415
01:51:58,600 --> 01:52:02,040
Speaker 13: probably fine if you have to, probably a bad idea

2416
01:52:02,120 --> 01:52:06,840
Speaker 13: unless you really need to, like maybe some straight up don't. Yeah,

2417
01:52:06,920 --> 01:52:08,360
Speaker 13: can you explain that for people?

2418
01:52:08,600 --> 01:52:11,760
Speaker 7: Sure? So there's a classification system and it's technical, but

2419
01:52:11,800 --> 01:52:14,800
Speaker 7: it's exactly like that. There are very few medications that

2420
01:52:14,880 --> 01:52:19,360
Speaker 7: are like totally fine. These are medications that are given

2421
01:52:19,680 --> 01:52:23,519
Speaker 7: during pregnancy that have been well studied in pregnancy. But

2422
01:52:23,600 --> 01:52:25,600
Speaker 7: for the most part, pretty much everything else in my

2423
01:52:25,640 --> 01:52:30,600
Speaker 7: world of psychiatry, you know, SSRIs and antipsychotics and benzodazepines

2424
01:52:30,640 --> 01:52:33,800
Speaker 7: and whatnot, they all have the same classification, which is

2425
01:52:33,840 --> 01:52:38,000
Speaker 7: basically contraindicated. Don't take it unless your doctor persuades it

2426
01:52:38,040 --> 01:52:41,840
Speaker 7: for you. Now, we still get pregnant people with depression

2427
01:52:41,880 --> 01:52:45,320
Speaker 7: and psychosis and who need all these medications, and so

2428
01:52:45,400 --> 01:52:48,120
Speaker 7: we do have to interpret it based off of the

2429
01:52:48,240 --> 01:52:50,599
Speaker 7: data that we have, and the data that we have

2430
01:52:50,680 --> 01:52:53,080
Speaker 7: always comes late, so if we find a problem, it's

2431
01:52:53,120 --> 01:52:57,920
Speaker 7: found too late, and generally it's precautionary. So typically I

2432
01:52:57,920 --> 01:53:01,160
Speaker 7: don't know cave if there's a similar thing in GI work,

2433
01:53:01,240 --> 01:53:03,800
Speaker 7: But like for me, I'll get a call all the time. Well,

2434
01:53:03,840 --> 01:53:06,719
Speaker 7: we have this woman, she's thirty two, she's really worried.

2435
01:53:07,120 --> 01:53:10,160
Speaker 7: She normally takes antidepressants, but she's thinking about stopping them

2436
01:53:10,200 --> 01:53:12,599
Speaker 7: because she's really worried about passing into her baby or whatever.

2437
01:53:13,080 --> 01:53:16,240
Speaker 7: And I'm like, how bad is the depression? Well, it

2438
01:53:16,280 --> 01:53:18,439
Speaker 7: was really bad. She was hospitalized three times and nearly died.

2439
01:53:18,479 --> 01:53:21,559
Speaker 7: I was like, probably want to keep antidepressant treatment going

2440
01:53:21,640 --> 01:53:23,559
Speaker 7: and just let her know that there could be some

2441
01:53:23,600 --> 01:53:26,639
Speaker 7: harm to the fetus. But depression is way worse. And

2442
01:53:27,160 --> 01:53:29,479
Speaker 7: if we just go with God, you know, do your best.

2443
01:53:30,320 --> 01:53:33,680
Speaker 14: There are certain medications where we are going to say you, absolutetion,

2444
01:53:33,960 --> 01:53:35,120
Speaker 14: take these during pregnancy.

2445
01:53:35,200 --> 01:53:36,880
Speaker 5: Yeah, and you should.

2446
01:53:36,640 --> 01:53:40,880
Speaker 7: Discuss that with your obstrician. You to talk that over

2447
01:53:40,920 --> 01:53:41,320
Speaker 7: with your.

2448
01:53:41,280 --> 01:53:44,840
Speaker 14: Gynecologist and your primary care doctor. You should talk it

2449
01:53:44,880 --> 01:53:48,200
Speaker 14: over with your medical team. That's great, but every medication

2450
01:53:48,600 --> 01:53:52,639
Speaker 14: has some small amount of risk, some larger than others.

2451
01:53:53,439 --> 01:53:56,760
Speaker 14: But it's really about the risk versus the benefit. And

2452
01:53:57,280 --> 01:54:00,880
Speaker 14: this has been well studied by the experts, and what

2453
01:54:01,000 --> 01:54:04,640
Speaker 14: you've heard, what those people have heard from Trump and

2454
01:54:05,200 --> 01:54:09,720
Speaker 14: RFK Junior is well outside of the normal recommendations right

2455
01:54:09,920 --> 01:54:13,559
Speaker 14: from the experts like the ACOG, the American College of

2456
01:54:13,600 --> 01:54:17,839
Speaker 14: Obstetricians and kind ofcologists, the people who have been keeping

2457
01:54:17,960 --> 01:54:22,719
Speaker 14: our pregnant patients alive and relatively well for many, many years.

2458
01:54:23,160 --> 01:54:26,519
Speaker 14: This is well outside of those recommendations. And while it's

2459
01:54:26,560 --> 01:54:30,040
Speaker 14: an interesting topic and I think maybe you know, sure,

2460
01:54:30,040 --> 01:54:32,240
Speaker 14: i'd like to see more studies on it. I'm never

2461
01:54:32,280 --> 01:54:35,160
Speaker 14: going to say don't study this more. I would say

2462
01:54:35,200 --> 01:54:38,760
Speaker 14: that the preponderance of evidence and scientific belief and medical

2463
01:54:38,760 --> 01:54:41,920
Speaker 14: belief in this one goes against what they're saying, and

2464
01:54:42,080 --> 01:54:44,600
Speaker 14: I would say, at least talk it over with your doctor.

2465
01:54:45,040 --> 01:54:47,160
Speaker 14: If you have a question, talk it over with your doctor.

2466
01:54:47,680 --> 01:54:50,120
Speaker 14: And that's you mentioned it before. Town Law has sort

2467
01:54:50,120 --> 01:54:53,720
Speaker 14: of like, you know, try to hedge its bets by

2468
01:54:53,720 --> 01:54:55,640
Speaker 14: saying talk it over with your doctor. But the reason

2469
01:54:55,640 --> 01:54:57,920
Speaker 14: they do that is they know most doctors are going

2470
01:54:57,960 --> 01:55:01,120
Speaker 14: to be reasonable about this and follow the scientific evidence

2471
01:55:01,160 --> 01:55:04,160
Speaker 14: that's there. So I would say if they really have

2472
01:55:04,200 --> 01:55:05,760
Speaker 14: a question, they shoul talk about with their doctor.

2473
01:55:05,760 --> 01:55:07,840
Speaker 7: Because Trump, whether or not they love.

2474
01:55:07,800 --> 01:55:10,480
Speaker 14: Him or not, this is well out of his range

2475
01:55:10,600 --> 01:55:14,480
Speaker 14: of understanding, and he is getting It's like a game

2476
01:55:14,520 --> 01:55:18,920
Speaker 14: of telephone. He's getting a version of the medical information

2477
01:55:19,320 --> 01:55:22,560
Speaker 14: transmit to him by RFK Junior, who is getting a

2478
01:55:22,600 --> 01:55:26,800
Speaker 14: weird version of it from his belief system. And it's

2479
01:55:26,800 --> 01:55:30,040
Speaker 14: being supported by people who are there solely just just

2480
01:55:30,160 --> 01:55:34,520
Speaker 14: there to do the back and call of Trump at

2481
01:55:34,560 --> 01:55:38,080
Speaker 14: this point, and that's super dangerous. And so if they

2482
01:55:38,120 --> 01:55:40,120
Speaker 14: can keep an open mind about it, talking over with

2483
01:55:40,160 --> 01:55:43,440
Speaker 14: their doctor, continue to do what their parents did. I

2484
01:55:43,480 --> 01:55:44,960
Speaker 14: think they're going to be okay.

2485
01:55:45,320 --> 01:55:48,920
Speaker 13: Yeah, real quick, because like for reasons that if you

2486
01:55:48,960 --> 01:55:50,600
Speaker 13: related to the way that we do healthcare in the

2487
01:55:50,640 --> 01:55:53,360
Speaker 13: United States, people sometimes are retident to talk to their doctor,

2488
01:55:53,440 --> 01:55:57,160
Speaker 13: unable to talk to a doctor, reliable sources of medical information.

2489
01:55:57,680 --> 01:55:59,720
Speaker 13: That is the shit that you find on Google. Give

2490
01:55:59,800 --> 01:56:01,240
Speaker 13: us a a five minute primer.

2491
01:56:01,640 --> 01:56:05,400
Speaker 7: Yeah. So you know, in almost every jurisdiction there is

2492
01:56:05,440 --> 01:56:08,080
Speaker 7: an official health agency that you can go to their

2493
01:56:08,080 --> 01:56:11,640
Speaker 7: website and get good health data. So in BC we

2494
01:56:11,720 --> 01:56:15,000
Speaker 7: have Health Length BC and there's a number that you

2495
01:56:15,000 --> 01:56:17,600
Speaker 7: can call to speak to a nurse. In America, you

2496
01:56:17,680 --> 01:56:19,560
Speaker 7: have great I would say it used to be great.

2497
01:56:19,560 --> 01:56:21,200
Speaker 7: Like Cleveland Clinic used to be really great, but they

2498
01:56:21,200 --> 01:56:23,200
Speaker 7: got a little hokey. I would still say, you know,

2499
01:56:23,800 --> 01:56:26,520
Speaker 7: there are some really good American places that you can go.

2500
01:56:27,080 --> 01:56:29,920
Speaker 7: Male Clinic has a lot of public facing information that

2501
01:56:30,000 --> 01:56:34,160
Speaker 7: has pretty good general descriptions. But just make sure it's

2502
01:56:34,240 --> 01:56:38,160
Speaker 7: from a place that is official, because there is a

2503
01:56:38,200 --> 01:56:41,080
Speaker 7: whole space now that's going to be opened up because

2504
01:56:41,120 --> 01:56:44,200
Speaker 7: the second part of this presentation that RFK gave was

2505
01:56:44,800 --> 01:56:48,400
Speaker 7: about a generic medication that might help some people with

2506
01:56:48,440 --> 01:56:51,400
Speaker 7: a very specific form of autism. And I promise you

2507
01:56:51,480 --> 01:56:54,400
Speaker 7: the amount of huckstering that's going to happen based on that.

2508
01:56:55,080 --> 01:56:57,200
Speaker 7: The alternatives. You know, we made a joke about lemon

2509
01:56:57,280 --> 01:57:00,280
Speaker 7: water before the ad break, but there are to be

2510
01:57:00,320 --> 01:57:03,400
Speaker 7: people who are going to be selling the alternative titalinol

2511
01:57:03,520 --> 01:57:07,560
Speaker 7: that is autism free, and that's really worrisome.

2512
01:57:07,800 --> 01:57:12,360
Speaker 14: Yeah, Be wary of anyone that has something in their

2513
01:57:13,240 --> 01:57:18,240
Speaker 14: Instagram there to talk their wellness post that uses the

2514
01:57:18,280 --> 01:57:24,240
Speaker 14: words detox. Be wary about ancient remedies. Be wary about

2515
01:57:24,280 --> 01:57:27,160
Speaker 14: anyone that is selling something like doctor Oz, who, by

2516
01:57:27,200 --> 01:57:30,000
Speaker 14: the way, sells a version of the full linic acid

2517
01:57:30,400 --> 01:57:34,640
Speaker 14: or the lukovorin that they're talking about here, So be

2518
01:57:34,760 --> 01:57:35,480
Speaker 14: wary about that.

2519
01:57:35,520 --> 01:57:36,640
Speaker 7: We don't sell shit.

2520
01:57:36,720 --> 01:57:39,880
Speaker 14: Be wary about people like doctor Baccarelli, the dean of

2521
01:57:39,960 --> 01:57:42,760
Speaker 14: Harvard Epidemiology, who, by the way, I've heard is a

2522
01:57:42,800 --> 01:57:45,880
Speaker 14: good doctor from the friends I have in Harvard, they

2523
01:57:45,920 --> 01:57:48,360
Speaker 14: say he's not a bad guy. But be wary about

2524
01:57:48,360 --> 01:57:50,520
Speaker 14: the fact anytime you see someone's making one hundred and

2525
01:57:50,520 --> 01:57:54,280
Speaker 14: fifty thousand dollars off of court trial to sue tailanol

2526
01:57:54,480 --> 01:57:58,280
Speaker 14: and has a vested interest in these things, so you

2527
01:57:58,800 --> 01:58:01,680
Speaker 14: should be wary about those things. That's definitely something to

2528
01:58:01,720 --> 01:58:04,880
Speaker 14: look for in if you're looking for trusted source. Speaking

2529
01:58:04,920 --> 01:58:07,440
Speaker 14: of hucksters, you could listen to my podcast The House

2530
01:58:07,480 --> 01:58:10,320
Speaker 14: of Pod anywhere you find podcasts where we're going to

2531
01:58:10,400 --> 01:58:13,320
Speaker 14: talk about medical stuff just like this, and I will

2532
01:58:13,320 --> 01:58:14,840
Speaker 14: bring you trusted sources.

2533
01:58:15,160 --> 01:58:17,680
Speaker 13: Beautiful. That was all a long play to get to

2534
01:58:17,680 --> 01:58:19,360
Speaker 13: listen to Kave's podcast, But.

2535
01:58:19,400 --> 01:58:20,800
Speaker 7: I'm in it for the long con. I'm in it

2536
01:58:20,840 --> 01:58:21,800
Speaker 7: for the long con, buddy.

2537
01:58:21,920 --> 01:58:24,160
Speaker 13: Yeah, thank you for helping us clear that up a bit.

2538
01:58:24,240 --> 01:58:28,360
Speaker 13: I think it's a real rough time for healthcare in general,

2539
01:58:28,440 --> 01:58:32,800
Speaker 13: and especially people with autism, like like well nero divergent people.

2540
01:58:33,360 --> 01:58:36,440
Speaker 13: It really fucking sucks to see the entire federal government

2541
01:58:36,840 --> 01:58:39,920
Speaker 13: bad mouthing people. So, yeah, we are thinking of you.

2542
01:58:40,640 --> 01:58:44,320
Speaker 7: Very similar to the issue with trans kids. Like I'm

2543
01:58:44,320 --> 01:58:46,280
Speaker 7: a Canadian, you know, and we have right next door

2544
01:58:46,440 --> 01:58:50,480
Speaker 7: to my province, Alberta, which is very much taking the

2545
01:58:50,600 --> 01:58:53,360
Speaker 7: route of Florida and other things with respect to trans policies,

2546
01:58:53,400 --> 01:58:55,400
Speaker 7: and it's just got to suck to be a trans

2547
01:58:55,520 --> 01:58:58,080
Speaker 7: kid in Florida right now. It's got to suck to

2548
01:58:58,120 --> 01:59:01,080
Speaker 7: be a trans kid anywhere in America right now, knowing

2549
01:59:01,120 --> 01:59:03,280
Speaker 7: what's coming down the pipeline, and it'll be the same

2550
01:59:03,280 --> 01:59:06,400
Speaker 7: for people with autism and families with autistic kids.

2551
01:59:06,880 --> 01:59:07,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, yep.

2552
01:59:08,080 --> 01:59:11,720
Speaker 14: I could conservatively complain about this for another three hours.

2553
01:59:12,160 --> 01:59:13,160
Speaker 13: Yeah yeah, yeah.

2554
01:59:13,240 --> 01:59:15,440
Speaker 14: We didn't even talk about hepatitis B. By the way,

2555
01:59:15,560 --> 01:59:17,640
Speaker 14: we didn't talk about hepatities people. We can talk about

2556
01:59:17,640 --> 01:59:20,320
Speaker 14: this on the point. There's just so much. There's so much,

2557
01:59:20,600 --> 01:59:24,200
Speaker 14: and it's so terrible, and you're absolutely right, it's really

2558
01:59:24,320 --> 01:59:25,960
Speaker 14: like for that community right now.

2559
01:59:26,080 --> 01:59:29,320
Speaker 7: By the way, I wanted to debunk something because it's

2560
01:59:29,320 --> 01:59:30,480
Speaker 7: been said multiple times.

2561
01:59:30,600 --> 01:59:31,400
Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, I get it.

2562
01:59:31,520 --> 01:59:33,760
Speaker 7: RFK and a whole bunch of people have said, I

2563
01:59:33,760 --> 01:59:37,600
Speaker 7: didn't know anybody autistic when I was you know, when

2564
01:59:37,640 --> 01:59:39,400
Speaker 7: I was a kid or whatever. I've never met someone

2565
01:59:39,400 --> 01:59:43,520
Speaker 7: autistic my age. Donald Triplett was the very first person

2566
01:59:43,600 --> 01:59:47,720
Speaker 7: diagnosed with autism in nineteen forty three, I believe nineteen

2567
01:59:47,760 --> 01:59:51,080
Speaker 7: forty three. He just died last year. I think he

2568
01:59:51,280 --> 01:59:56,480
Speaker 7: was something like eighty ninety years old. Okay, autistic people

2569
01:59:56,560 --> 01:59:59,960
Speaker 7: are old too. This idea that there aren't old autio

2570
02:00:00,000 --> 02:00:05,440
Speaker 7: fistic people is so asked backwards. It was just not diagnosed. Yes,

2571
02:00:05,680 --> 02:00:09,040
Speaker 7: and and and it's it's such a shame because when

2572
02:00:09,840 --> 02:00:12,480
Speaker 7: when when Donald Tripplett passed, you know, like people in

2573
02:00:12,480 --> 02:00:14,480
Speaker 7: psychiatry notes, that's not the type of thing that people

2574
02:00:14,480 --> 02:00:16,360
Speaker 7: in the world noticed. But he was the very first

2575
02:00:16,400 --> 02:00:19,880
Speaker 7: autistic person. He lived a full life, he was an engineer.

2576
02:00:20,400 --> 02:00:22,760
Speaker 7: He had autism, it was diagnosed. He was the first

2577
02:00:22,760 --> 02:00:26,440
Speaker 7: ever case diagnosed. And he also lived a life. And

2578
02:00:26,440 --> 02:00:29,879
Speaker 7: and so for for RFK to just erase him completely

2579
02:00:29,880 --> 02:00:32,760
Speaker 7: and say I've never known an old person to have autism,

2580
02:00:33,080 --> 02:00:34,120
Speaker 7: it's just ridiculous.

2581
02:00:34,480 --> 02:00:37,480
Speaker 13: Yeah. And if you conduct yourself as Rskade does, but

2582
02:00:37,640 --> 02:00:40,240
Speaker 13: being a piece of shit to neurodivergent people, then even

2583
02:00:40,280 --> 02:00:42,400
Speaker 13: people who who have been diagnosed, I'm just going to

2584
02:00:42,440 --> 02:00:43,720
Speaker 13: be like, hey man, yeah, I wanted to talk to

2585
02:00:43,720 --> 02:00:47,240
Speaker 13: you about more because you're being a turd to them,

2586
02:00:47,360 --> 02:00:50,560
Speaker 13: and like you're being unkind. Yeah, Like what do you expect?

2587
02:00:50,720 --> 02:00:55,320
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean yeah, Tyler grand In is like how

2588
02:00:55,360 --> 02:00:58,240
Speaker 7: old is she now, like in her seventies. I mean,

2589
02:00:58,360 --> 02:01:01,720
Speaker 7: it's it's absurd to think that this is a totally

2590
02:01:01,760 --> 02:01:02,200
Speaker 7: new thing.

2591
02:01:02,360 --> 02:01:05,360
Speaker 14: I mean it it also tells me that he was

2592
02:01:05,400 --> 02:01:09,000
Speaker 14: probably a bit sheltered and it probably didn't meet enough people.

2593
02:01:09,000 --> 02:01:10,320
Speaker 7: Wow, Kennedy sheltered.

2594
02:01:10,360 --> 02:01:10,560
Speaker 8: Wow.

2595
02:01:11,080 --> 02:01:13,720
Speaker 13: Yeah. Yeah, he's had a different experience of life than

2596
02:01:13,760 --> 02:01:15,920
Speaker 13: any of us. It's fair to say.

2597
02:01:16,040 --> 02:01:18,160
Speaker 7: I got through the whole podcast without making a Tyler

2598
02:01:18,200 --> 02:01:20,600
Speaker 7: and All pun. I'm very proud of that. I usually

2599
02:01:20,640 --> 02:01:22,760
Speaker 7: do pretty much every time, and it kisses my wife

2600
02:01:22,760 --> 02:01:25,960
Speaker 7: off so much. I'm really proud of you, man. I

2601
02:01:26,040 --> 02:01:27,000
Speaker 7: showed a lot of growth.

2602
02:01:27,120 --> 02:01:29,840
Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, that's great. I was gonna make one, but

2603
02:01:30,240 --> 02:01:35,120
Speaker 13: I thought I didn't want to want to offend. Yeah,

2604
02:01:35,160 --> 02:01:37,920
Speaker 13: thank you very much. Where can people find both of

2605
02:01:37,920 --> 02:01:40,280
Speaker 13: you on the internet if they'd like to, oh, you know,

2606
02:01:40,320 --> 02:01:40,839
Speaker 13: in person?

2607
02:01:41,800 --> 02:01:46,080
Speaker 14: Don't find that as You can listen to my podcast,

2608
02:01:46,160 --> 02:01:48,800
Speaker 14: The House of Pod. Anywhere you listen to podcasts, you'll

2609
02:01:48,840 --> 02:01:51,360
Speaker 14: hear people like James, you'll hear people like Tyler. Last

2610
02:01:51,360 --> 02:01:54,760
Speaker 14: time Tyler was on was actually for episode two eighty four.

2611
02:01:55,080 --> 02:01:59,800
Speaker 14: We did an episode on Adult ADHD with author Rex King.

2612
02:02:00,120 --> 02:02:02,800
Speaker 14: She's Brad so that's a good episode to listen to.

2613
02:02:03,400 --> 02:02:05,760
Speaker 14: And you can find me on Blue Sky at CAVEMD.

2614
02:02:06,080 --> 02:02:08,800
Speaker 14: I still have a Twitter account and Instagram account, but

2615
02:02:08,800 --> 02:02:10,280
Speaker 14: I don't really use those that much, so find me

2616
02:02:10,320 --> 02:02:12,680
Speaker 14: on Blue Sky, Blue Sky by the way, as a

2617
02:02:12,680 --> 02:02:15,360
Speaker 14: shout out, as a plug. I think it's good for

2618
02:02:15,480 --> 02:02:19,440
Speaker 14: science if you're interested in science based stuff. It may

2619
02:02:19,440 --> 02:02:21,520
Speaker 14: not be that much fun for everything else, but at

2620
02:02:21,600 --> 02:02:23,440
Speaker 14: least in terms of like if you want to follow

2621
02:02:23,640 --> 02:02:26,760
Speaker 14: doctors scientists, that's a good place to go. That's where

2622
02:02:26,800 --> 02:02:29,520
Speaker 14: a lot of us have gone. So I'll be there

2623
02:02:29,600 --> 02:02:30,520
Speaker 14: at Blue Sky.

2624
02:02:30,840 --> 02:02:33,760
Speaker 7: Yeah, and I'm I am still on Twitter Tyler Black

2625
02:02:33,800 --> 02:02:36,480
Speaker 7: thirty two. I'm slugging it out. It is a lot

2626
02:02:36,520 --> 02:02:38,880
Speaker 7: of hate and a lot of death threats now, especially

2627
02:02:38,960 --> 02:02:42,000
Speaker 7: as I've I've been on a few trans podcasts, I've

2628
02:02:42,000 --> 02:02:45,840
Speaker 7: been on quite a few medical anti vacs and vaccine podcasts,

2629
02:02:45,920 --> 02:02:49,080
Speaker 7: So you know, I'll pop up from time to time

2630
02:02:49,120 --> 02:02:51,240
Speaker 7: on a podcast or something. But I'm not really have

2631
02:02:51,320 --> 02:02:56,000
Speaker 7: anything to plug anymore. I'm just really hoping that we

2632
02:02:56,080 --> 02:02:59,880
Speaker 7: can continue to fight this sort of It's a really

2633
02:03:00,000 --> 02:03:03,680
Speaker 7: disgusting reality in this decade that misinformation has won the

2634
02:03:03,760 --> 02:03:07,440
Speaker 7: day and literally misinformers are the political leaders now, and

2635
02:03:07,560 --> 02:03:11,560
Speaker 7: misinformation has just eroded science to the point where I

2636
02:03:11,560 --> 02:03:13,280
Speaker 7: don't know if America is ever going to get it back.

2637
02:03:14,000 --> 02:03:16,880
Speaker 14: Yeah, if we do. This has set us back many years.

2638
02:03:17,320 --> 02:03:18,760
Speaker 14: This has set us back many many years.

2639
02:03:18,840 --> 02:03:20,320
Speaker 13: Yeah, it's pretty bleak.

2640
02:03:21,080 --> 02:03:21,880
Speaker 7: Well that was fun.

2641
02:03:22,640 --> 02:03:44,680
Speaker 13: Let's send on that hopeful note. Yeah, all right, hey everyone,

2642
02:03:44,800 --> 02:03:47,760
Speaker 13: it's James here. We promised that we would get you

2643
02:03:47,880 --> 02:03:52,720
Speaker 13: something on the changes or lack thereof after Donald Trump's

2644
02:03:52,720 --> 02:03:57,360
Speaker 13: series of executive orders targeting certain groups, and we reached

2645
02:03:57,400 --> 02:04:00,680
Speaker 13: out to a lawyer, Moe, who is a fantastic lawyer,

2646
02:04:00,720 --> 02:04:03,200
Speaker 13: and we asked he into you them. They said they

2647
02:04:03,240 --> 02:04:05,840
Speaker 13: had just done an interview with Final Store Radio, which

2648
02:04:05,880 --> 02:04:09,720
Speaker 13: is an excellent show, and they suggested that I take

2649
02:04:09,800 --> 02:04:11,200
Speaker 13: listen to that. I took a listen to that, and

2650
02:04:11,240 --> 02:04:13,360
Speaker 13: I think it's a fantastic interview and I don't think

2651
02:04:13,400 --> 02:04:16,520
Speaker 13: as much as that we can add to it. So

2652
02:04:16,560 --> 02:04:20,360
Speaker 13: we're going to re air that interview in full. The

2653
02:04:20,440 --> 02:04:22,640
Speaker 13: one thing I would add to it is that there

2654
02:04:22,640 --> 02:04:25,120
Speaker 13: have been a number of cases recently where grand juries

2655
02:04:25,160 --> 02:04:29,440
Speaker 13: have not returned an indictment. That's relatively rare, but we

2656
02:04:29,480 --> 02:04:34,000
Speaker 13: are seeing that more frequently, and that just enforces everything

2657
02:04:34,080 --> 02:04:36,880
Speaker 13: that most says here, which is that at this time

2658
02:04:36,960 --> 02:04:40,040
Speaker 13: we still have separation of powers, and at this time

2659
02:04:40,360 --> 02:04:43,840
Speaker 13: the executive cannot simply make law. One still has to

2660
02:04:43,840 --> 02:04:47,320
Speaker 13: be prosecuted according to a statute by a district attorney

2661
02:04:47,440 --> 02:04:51,040
Speaker 13: or a USA attorney. Right, they President cannot just make

2662
02:04:51,120 --> 02:04:55,920
Speaker 13: law in this instance pertaining to the First Amendment by

2663
02:04:56,520 --> 02:04:59,200
Speaker 13: executive order. That doesn't mean that they will not be harassment.

2664
02:04:59,240 --> 02:05:01,560
Speaker 13: And as you're here here, there's two distinct things, and

2665
02:05:01,600 --> 02:05:04,160
Speaker 13: I think MO gives an excellent outline on how we

2666
02:05:04,200 --> 02:05:08,760
Speaker 13: should think about and conceive this moment in American history. So,

2667
02:05:09,440 --> 02:05:11,840
Speaker 13: without any more of me taking your time, this is

2668
02:05:11,840 --> 02:05:13,800
Speaker 13: an excellent interview that bursted with MO. I hope you

2669
02:05:13,920 --> 02:05:16,160
Speaker 13: enjoy it, and if you would like to check out

2670
02:05:16,200 --> 02:05:18,640
Speaker 13: Final Store Radio, you can do so using the link

2671
02:05:18,680 --> 02:05:20,240
Speaker 13: that I will put below this episode.

2672
02:05:23,640 --> 02:05:27,240
Speaker 19: Could you please introduce yourself for the audience with any name, pronouns, location,

2673
02:05:27,720 --> 02:05:30,760
Speaker 19: or other contexts that would help us understand who you are.

2674
02:05:30,880 --> 02:05:34,560
Speaker 10: Good morning. I'm Moura Meltzer Cohen. Everybody calls me MO.

2675
02:05:35,240 --> 02:05:39,200
Speaker 10: My pronouns are they are MO. I'm an abolitionist, an educator,

2676
02:05:39,240 --> 02:05:43,240
Speaker 10: and an attorney in New York. Primarily I represent people

2677
02:05:43,240 --> 02:05:46,480
Speaker 10: who are arrested in the course of justice struggles and

2678
02:05:47,040 --> 02:05:51,960
Speaker 10: do advocacy for incarcerated people and movements.

2679
02:05:52,360 --> 02:05:54,400
Speaker 19: So we're here to talk about the recent White House

2680
02:05:54,400 --> 02:05:58,040
Speaker 19: statements following the assass I mean, I mean following the

2681
02:05:58,480 --> 02:06:03,160
Speaker 19: reelection of Trump, but more recently the assassination of Charles

2682
02:06:03,240 --> 02:06:07,640
Speaker 19: Kirk that Antifa is domestic terrorist organization.

2683
02:06:08,440 --> 02:06:09,880
Speaker 7: Can you talk about what.

2684
02:06:09,880 --> 02:06:13,080
Speaker 19: Legally changed with the executive order of September twenty second

2685
02:06:13,120 --> 02:06:16,120
Speaker 19: of this year or yesterday ism when we're recording this

2686
02:06:16,320 --> 02:06:21,440
Speaker 19: National Presidential Security Memo number seven titled countering Domestic Terrorism

2687
02:06:21,560 --> 02:06:25,000
Speaker 19: and Organized Political Violence. Again, it came out on September

2688
02:06:25,040 --> 02:06:27,360
Speaker 19: twenty fifth, What changed with those?

2689
02:06:28,360 --> 02:06:32,240
Speaker 10: Well, Before I answer that question, the first thing I

2690
02:06:32,280 --> 02:06:35,040
Speaker 10: want to say is nothing that I say on this

2691
02:06:35,080 --> 02:06:39,760
Speaker 10: program is legal advice. This is information. If you want

2692
02:06:39,840 --> 02:06:43,840
Speaker 10: legal advice, I vigorously encourage you to have a privileged

2693
02:06:43,880 --> 02:06:49,160
Speaker 10: conversation with a human attorney who is admitted to practice

2694
02:06:49,200 --> 02:06:53,760
Speaker 10: in your jurisdiction. As to your overall question, what changed

2695
02:06:54,440 --> 02:06:58,800
Speaker 10: legally is essentially nothing. I think the top level takeaway

2696
02:06:58,840 --> 02:07:02,160
Speaker 10: here is that these exists executive orders are frightening. They

2697
02:07:02,400 --> 02:07:07,440
Speaker 10: are a frightening contribution to an already dangerous political discourse,

2698
02:07:07,520 --> 02:07:10,960
Speaker 10: and they may very well end up being quite disruptive

2699
02:07:11,440 --> 02:07:18,280
Speaker 10: to left movements, including I think primarily centrist liberal movements.

2700
02:07:18,560 --> 02:07:23,120
Speaker 10: But nothing that was legal last week is illegal this week.

2701
02:07:23,160 --> 02:07:27,680
Speaker 10: Certainly not because of those statements. And the state cannot

2702
02:07:27,680 --> 02:07:30,400
Speaker 10: prosecute you for things that were legal when you did them.

2703
02:07:30,680 --> 02:07:34,040
Speaker 10: So yeah, I mean, I can't see the future, but

2704
02:07:34,280 --> 02:07:37,520
Speaker 10: as of right now, the law and the constitution have

2705
02:07:37,800 --> 02:07:42,560
Speaker 10: not changed. So if this administration wants to in any

2706
02:07:42,600 --> 02:07:48,920
Speaker 10: meaningful legal way designate anyone, any group as domestic terrorists,

2707
02:07:49,480 --> 02:07:52,720
Speaker 10: they can change the law, which is not going to

2708
02:07:52,720 --> 02:07:56,240
Speaker 10: be quick or easy, or they can dispense with the law.

2709
02:07:56,720 --> 02:08:00,320
Speaker 10: But under the current legal regime, there is no mechanism

2710
02:08:00,800 --> 02:08:06,680
Speaker 10: that would make it illegal to be and to whatever

2711
02:08:06,760 --> 02:08:11,160
Speaker 10: that means, or to hold anti fascist values, or to

2712
02:08:11,280 --> 02:08:15,200
Speaker 10: assemble or to petition the government. And you know, to

2713
02:08:15,280 --> 02:08:19,520
Speaker 10: be clear, not that doing any of those things or

2714
02:08:19,520 --> 02:08:23,440
Speaker 10: being any of those things are necessarily effective at creating

2715
02:08:23,480 --> 02:08:26,640
Speaker 10: social change right now, but my point really is they're

2716
02:08:26,680 --> 02:08:27,560
Speaker 10: not illegal.

2717
02:08:28,160 --> 02:08:30,120
Speaker 19: Just to sort of throw this back your way, So

2718
02:08:30,240 --> 02:08:32,080
Speaker 19: there was when you were responding to that, it made

2719
02:08:32,120 --> 02:08:35,880
Speaker 19: me think of there's a veteran who lost a bunch

2720
02:08:35,920 --> 02:08:40,320
Speaker 19: of his property during the Helene hurricane that is, you know,

2721
02:08:40,360 --> 02:08:43,760
Speaker 19: about a year ago hit this region. He was recorded

2722
02:08:44,200 --> 02:08:48,480
Speaker 19: like he went pretty viral calling out and shouting down

2723
02:08:48,720 --> 02:08:53,000
Speaker 19: a state politician who had a like public meeting here

2724
02:08:53,040 --> 02:08:55,920
Speaker 19: in the area, just saying there's been like total like

2725
02:08:56,040 --> 02:08:58,640
Speaker 19: lack of support after the storm and hear all the

2726
02:08:58,680 --> 02:09:00,440
Speaker 19: needs and you're just a lying politicans and this sort

2727
02:09:00,480 --> 02:09:04,640
Speaker 19: of thing. The same man, right after the executive order

2728
02:09:04,680 --> 02:09:09,480
Speaker 19: that Trump made about burning US flags, went out and

2729
02:09:09,520 --> 02:09:11,960
Speaker 19: burned one across from the White House and then he

2730
02:09:12,000 --> 02:09:14,960
Speaker 19: got arrested for it. Like I thought that there was

2731
02:09:15,040 --> 02:09:17,720
Speaker 19: a Supreme Court decision back in the eighties that said

2732
02:09:17,760 --> 02:09:20,440
Speaker 19: it's not actually illegal to burn a flag. So does

2733
02:09:20,440 --> 02:09:23,360
Speaker 19: that make his executive orders now law?

2734
02:09:23,840 --> 02:09:25,600
Speaker 5: No, there is.

2735
02:09:25,520 --> 02:09:29,800
Speaker 10: A Supreme Court decision. It's called Texas v. Johnson, and

2736
02:09:30,000 --> 02:09:33,960
Speaker 10: it is still law. And in fact, after Texas v. Johnson,

2737
02:09:34,440 --> 02:09:41,720
Speaker 10: Congress actually tried to make a federal statute criminalizing burning

2738
02:09:41,800 --> 02:09:46,320
Speaker 10: the American flag and it was found on constitutional It

2739
02:09:46,440 --> 02:09:52,800
Speaker 10: is astonishing and illuminating that that man was arrested for

2740
02:09:52,880 --> 02:09:57,000
Speaker 10: burning an American flag, which is absolutely constitutionally protected conduct.

2741
02:09:57,480 --> 02:10:00,720
Speaker 10: I will say, I'm not sure what he was at actually.

2742
02:10:01,200 --> 02:10:06,400
Speaker 20: Charged with, right if he was charged with, you know,

2743
02:10:06,480 --> 02:10:10,560
Speaker 20: creating a fire hazard, I suppose that apart from the

2744
02:10:10,600 --> 02:10:12,800
Speaker 20: fact that it's clearly First Amendment retaliation.

2745
02:10:13,400 --> 02:10:17,160
Speaker 10: I suppose that you could be criminally charged with creating

2746
02:10:17,160 --> 02:10:20,120
Speaker 10: a fire hazard in a public place or something like that,

2747
02:10:20,240 --> 02:10:27,120
Speaker 10: but no flag burning remains protected regardless of what the

2748
02:10:27,160 --> 02:10:31,680
Speaker 10: President or Congress says about it. It would take either

2749
02:10:32,040 --> 02:10:37,880
Speaker 10: an amendment to the Constitution or a very serious change

2750
02:10:37,920 --> 02:10:42,320
Speaker 10: in Supreme Court jurisprudence to make flag burning illegal.

2751
02:10:42,840 --> 02:10:46,880
Speaker 19: Okay, Yeah, so this is the distinction I'd love for

2752
02:10:46,960 --> 02:10:49,520
Speaker 19: us to get back to in a moment between like

2753
02:10:49,920 --> 02:10:54,480
Speaker 19: legality versus what, you know, the sort of like box

2754
02:10:54,560 --> 02:10:58,280
Speaker 19: that that powers decide to put a thing into. Like

2755
02:10:58,320 --> 02:11:01,560
Speaker 19: I know, I've I've definitely been totained, not for being

2756
02:11:01,600 --> 02:11:03,840
Speaker 19: an annoyance to the cops, but within my legal rights.

2757
02:11:03,840 --> 02:11:05,840
Speaker 19: But they'll say, ah, but your shoes untied on a

2758
02:11:05,880 --> 02:11:10,680
Speaker 19: Tuesday whatever, and then waste my time.

2759
02:11:11,640 --> 02:11:14,120
Speaker 10: Let's talk about that. And because I do want to

2760
02:11:14,160 --> 02:11:17,800
Speaker 10: talk with more specificity about these specific executive orders and statements,

2761
02:11:18,280 --> 02:11:22,720
Speaker 10: and also about what legal mechanisms do exist that are

2762
02:11:22,960 --> 02:11:28,960
Speaker 10: and can be and have long been used to surveil

2763
02:11:29,080 --> 02:11:32,960
Speaker 10: and disrupt and target the left. But actually, before we

2764
02:11:33,080 --> 02:11:34,960
Speaker 10: do that, why don't we talk about sort of some

2765
02:11:35,000 --> 02:11:38,160
Speaker 10: of the categories that are played in playing here and

2766
02:11:38,600 --> 02:11:43,080
Speaker 10: be really clear about definitions, or at least understand that

2767
02:11:43,120 --> 02:11:46,480
Speaker 10: there are differences between these categories, right, because there is

2768
02:11:46,560 --> 02:11:52,240
Speaker 10: a difference between the law and political discourse, and there

2769
02:11:52,280 --> 02:11:58,600
Speaker 10: is a difference importantly between law and power. And there's certainly,

2770
02:11:58,720 --> 02:12:05,000
Speaker 10: at least on daylight, between the legal constraints on state

2771
02:12:05,200 --> 02:12:09,400
Speaker 10: power and the state's power to ignore those constraints. And

2772
02:12:09,440 --> 02:12:12,680
Speaker 10: then I think what will be significant to this discussion

2773
02:12:12,760 --> 02:12:18,320
Speaker 10: is there is a significant difference between antifa, which is

2774
02:12:18,360 --> 02:12:22,360
Speaker 10: a set of practices or beliefs that are not necessarily

2775
02:12:22,400 --> 02:12:27,040
Speaker 10: even all that well defined, and what this administration refers

2776
02:12:27,080 --> 02:12:32,680
Speaker 10: to when it uses or deploys the word antifa. And

2777
02:12:32,760 --> 02:12:35,640
Speaker 10: there is yet more difference between the booking man that

2778
02:12:35,760 --> 02:12:39,760
Speaker 10: is being invoked by that word and the individuals and

2779
02:12:39,880 --> 02:12:43,840
Speaker 10: organizations that the administration actually intends to target. There's a

2780
02:12:43,880 --> 02:12:49,480
Speaker 10: difference between political targeting, surveillance, disruption, and prosecution, right, those

2781
02:12:49,520 --> 02:12:54,160
Speaker 10: things are all different, And there's a difference between prosecution

2782
02:12:54,400 --> 02:12:59,080
Speaker 10: and conviction. And there is an important difference between someone's

2783
02:12:59,120 --> 02:13:05,000
Speaker 10: political belief and associations which are and remain protected by

2784
02:13:05,040 --> 02:13:10,200
Speaker 10: the First Amendment and politically motivated conduct that is illegal.

2785
02:13:10,640 --> 02:13:15,160
Speaker 10: So you know, executive orders and these kinds of statements

2786
02:13:15,200 --> 02:13:19,960
Speaker 10: on national security are policy statements. They don't in and

2787
02:13:20,040 --> 02:13:22,640
Speaker 10: of themselves make things happen. They don't in and of

2788
02:13:22,680 --> 02:13:25,760
Speaker 10: themselves change the law. And an executive order that is

2789
02:13:25,800 --> 02:13:29,760
Speaker 10: inconsistent with the constitution or existing law at least ought

2790
02:13:29,760 --> 02:13:30,960
Speaker 10: to be unenforceable.

2791
02:13:31,120 --> 02:13:35,840
Speaker 19: Okay, but yeah, but recognizing that that distinction, you know,

2792
02:13:36,080 --> 02:13:39,520
Speaker 19: cops are going to cop, investigators are going to investigate,

2793
02:13:39,800 --> 02:13:45,200
Speaker 19: and those processes are disruptive for people whose lives they're affecting.

2794
02:13:45,280 --> 02:13:48,880
Speaker 19: They can affect your job prospects, they can affect your

2795
02:13:49,080 --> 02:13:53,000
Speaker 19: housing stability. They can affect whether or not some unhinged

2796
02:13:53,040 --> 02:13:55,680
Speaker 19: person decides to attack you because they've heard some conspiracy

2797
02:13:55,720 --> 02:13:59,800
Speaker 19: theory about you. But so that distinction of like, well,

2798
02:13:59,840 --> 02:14:03,360
Speaker 19: you might get exonerated by a court after you've been

2799
02:14:03,440 --> 02:14:07,080
Speaker 19: held in pre trial for a year, I guess that

2800
02:14:07,160 --> 02:14:09,120
Speaker 19: is an important distinction, right, because it means you're not

2801
02:14:09,120 --> 02:14:12,880
Speaker 19: spending you know, an extra thirty years or twenty years

2802
02:14:12,920 --> 02:14:13,960
Speaker 19: or whatever behind bars.

2803
02:14:14,000 --> 02:14:16,120
Speaker 7: With the terrorism enhancement, well.

2804
02:14:15,920 --> 02:14:19,280
Speaker 10: I mean that is also called comfort. I'm really not

2805
02:14:19,320 --> 02:14:22,160
Speaker 10: trying to be dismissive. I think it's important to recognize

2806
02:14:22,160 --> 02:14:25,440
Speaker 10: what these distinctions are and the primarily because I want

2807
02:14:25,440 --> 02:14:29,160
Speaker 10: people to understand what exactly we need to be prepared

2808
02:14:29,280 --> 02:14:33,320
Speaker 10: for and what we need to be worried about, and

2809
02:14:33,360 --> 02:14:38,280
Speaker 10: what tools we have and what tools are effective at

2810
02:14:38,320 --> 02:14:40,720
Speaker 10: resisting what's coming down the pike. And in order to

2811
02:14:40,760 --> 02:14:42,880
Speaker 10: do that, we need to know what's coming down the pipe.

2812
02:14:42,960 --> 02:14:46,600
Speaker 10: We need to know who actually has power in this situation.

2813
02:14:46,800 --> 02:14:49,440
Speaker 10: The fact that an executive order doesn't change the law

2814
02:14:49,520 --> 02:14:52,080
Speaker 10: does not mean an executive order will not result in

2815
02:14:52,120 --> 02:14:55,080
Speaker 10: a lot more state repression, or that it won't disrupt

2816
02:14:55,080 --> 02:14:58,640
Speaker 10: movements or even ruin lives. It doesn't mean that Trump

2817
02:14:58,760 --> 02:15:00,800
Speaker 10: is not going to a comp the thing that I

2818
02:15:00,800 --> 02:15:03,839
Speaker 10: think he's actually trying to accomplish here in the immediate

2819
02:15:03,880 --> 02:15:08,280
Speaker 10: short term, which is broadcasting to his base that non

2820
02:15:08,560 --> 02:15:13,160
Speaker 10: state action against people identified as or perceived to be

2821
02:15:13,760 --> 02:15:17,960
Speaker 10: part of the despised group you know is desirable by

2822
02:15:18,000 --> 02:15:22,040
Speaker 10: this administration will be condoned by this administration. I think

2823
02:15:22,040 --> 02:15:25,280
Speaker 10: that is important to recognize. Saying that it doesn't change

2824
02:15:25,280 --> 02:15:27,800
Speaker 10: a law does not mean it is dangerous. I just

2825
02:15:27,880 --> 02:15:30,400
Speaker 10: want to be very precise about I think the ways

2826
02:15:30,400 --> 02:15:32,600
Speaker 10: in which it is likely to be dangerous, and some

2827
02:15:32,680 --> 02:15:34,880
Speaker 10: of the ways that it might not might not be.

2828
02:15:35,160 --> 02:15:38,320
Speaker 10: And again I'm not trying to be dismissive, but state

2829
02:15:38,400 --> 02:15:43,800
Speaker 10: repression exists all the time. State repression against leftists and

2830
02:15:43,840 --> 02:15:47,760
Speaker 10: anarchism in particular has been ongoing the whole time. This

2831
02:15:47,920 --> 02:15:50,520
Speaker 10: is not a Trump thing, And in fact, I think

2832
02:15:50,520 --> 02:15:53,160
Speaker 10: it's important to note that the executive who's probably most

2833
02:15:53,240 --> 02:15:56,840
Speaker 10: responsible for having laid this groundwork is Biden, who set

2834
02:15:56,840 --> 02:16:01,200
Speaker 10: forth a policy strategy that focused on funding the federal

2835
02:16:01,240 --> 02:16:04,680
Speaker 10: targeting of what at that point he was calling political extremists,

2836
02:16:05,240 --> 02:16:07,640
Speaker 10: which was a label that was being applied to groups

2837
02:16:07,680 --> 02:16:10,480
Speaker 10: on the left as well as neo Nazis and all

2838
02:16:10,600 --> 02:16:15,400
Speaker 10: right groups. So this administration has already been engaged, and

2839
02:16:15,880 --> 02:16:20,360
Speaker 10: not just this administration, right, we have centuries at this

2840
02:16:20,560 --> 02:16:26,520
Speaker 10: point of targeted disruption of left movements. The way that

2841
02:16:26,560 --> 02:16:30,280
Speaker 10: it's currently being rationalized is a little bit different. The

2842
02:16:30,320 --> 02:16:36,320
Speaker 10: way that it's being broadcast normalized is a little bit different,

2843
02:16:36,400 --> 02:16:39,720
Speaker 10: but it's I will say, I don't think this is

2844
02:16:39,800 --> 02:16:44,520
Speaker 10: actually anything all that new or different, And the difference

2845
02:16:44,560 --> 02:16:48,400
Speaker 10: in how dangerous it is is one of scale maybe

2846
02:16:48,480 --> 02:16:52,279
Speaker 10: rather than it's a difference in scope, Rather than nature.

2847
02:16:52,959 --> 02:16:55,120
Speaker 19: I think, yeah, I think that's an important distinction. I

2848
02:16:55,120 --> 02:16:58,199
Speaker 19: think that like sometimes people in the center and even

2849
02:16:58,240 --> 02:17:01,720
Speaker 19: sometimes people on the left will look in particular things

2850
02:17:01,760 --> 02:17:07,760
Speaker 19: that Trump administrations do because they are obfuscatory, they're like confusing,

2851
02:17:08,240 --> 02:17:12,200
Speaker 19: and they're bombastic, and there's a part of us that

2852
02:17:12,400 --> 02:17:15,280
Speaker 19: we'll say like, no, but that's that's not what's actually happening,

2853
02:17:15,320 --> 02:17:17,760
Speaker 19: that's not what actually was the motivation for that person,

2854
02:17:17,920 --> 02:17:20,680
Speaker 19: or like that person voted you know, Republican in the

2855
02:17:20,760 --> 02:17:23,039
Speaker 19: last election. Whatever. And so I think that that distinction

2856
02:17:23,080 --> 02:17:25,280
Speaker 19: that you're making of you know this, this may not

2857
02:17:25,440 --> 02:17:28,360
Speaker 19: this may be like an approach to motivate the base,

2858
02:17:29,320 --> 02:17:32,920
Speaker 19: it may prove not to be legally like standing, but

2859
02:17:33,240 --> 02:17:35,840
Speaker 19: that doesn't mean that it doesn't have an impact on people.

2860
02:17:36,959 --> 02:17:39,240
Speaker 19: And what we should be looking for out of this

2861
02:17:39,520 --> 02:17:43,520
Speaker 19: is a projection of not only like all call to

2862
02:17:43,560 --> 02:17:46,879
Speaker 19: action or red meat for the base or whatever, but

2863
02:17:47,000 --> 02:17:50,920
Speaker 19: also like a clear proposition of that's meant to chill

2864
02:17:51,800 --> 02:17:56,040
Speaker 19: us and chill some society, that these are the intentions

2865
02:17:56,080 --> 02:17:58,080
Speaker 19: moving forward. This is the narrative, and this is the

2866
02:17:58,120 --> 02:17:59,760
Speaker 19: story that they're going to be going.

2867
02:17:59,520 --> 02:18:02,640
Speaker 10: With right absolutely, And I think it is important to

2868
02:18:02,680 --> 02:18:06,279
Speaker 10: point out. Right now, we're seeing a lot of people

2869
02:18:06,280 --> 02:18:10,400
Speaker 10: pointing out the hypocrisy and the sort of the fact

2870
02:18:10,480 --> 02:18:16,800
Speaker 10: that these rationales are really untethered from factual reality. And

2871
02:18:17,200 --> 02:18:21,000
Speaker 10: I suppose that's true and important to note, but pointing

2872
02:18:21,000 --> 02:18:24,400
Speaker 10: out the hypocrisy is not going to be particularly useful.

2873
02:18:24,480 --> 02:18:26,520
Speaker 10: I mean, I think it's part of the point, right

2874
02:18:26,959 --> 02:18:33,040
Speaker 10: Manipulating the facts, making narrative claims that are totally unsupportable,

2875
02:18:33,400 --> 02:18:38,200
Speaker 10: and muddying the waters in this really fundamental way is

2876
02:18:38,520 --> 02:18:39,720
Speaker 10: part of the project.

2877
02:18:39,959 --> 02:18:45,440
Speaker 19: There was a German jurist I guess who became the

2878
02:18:45,480 --> 02:18:49,120
Speaker 19: highest jurist during the Nazi regime in Germany, but continued

2879
02:18:49,120 --> 02:18:52,080
Speaker 19: writing theory like was writing it before as a member

2880
02:18:52,080 --> 02:18:54,959
Speaker 19: of the Conservative Revolution that they called it, and then

2881
02:18:55,000 --> 02:18:57,960
Speaker 19: afterwards he survived the war and continued living in Germany

2882
02:18:58,040 --> 02:19:02,560
Speaker 19: writing Carl Schmidt, who talked a lot about like the

2883
02:19:02,680 --> 02:19:09,920
Speaker 19: limits of liberal approaches towards legality and liberal governance, with

2884
02:19:10,040 --> 02:19:12,480
Speaker 19: a belief that like it makes sense to push it

2885
02:19:12,520 --> 02:19:16,160
Speaker 19: to its limits and beyond break it and recognize that

2886
02:19:16,320 --> 02:19:20,120
Speaker 19: governance is about the imposition of power and the sheltering

2887
02:19:20,360 --> 02:19:23,760
Speaker 19: of those who are under the controller or in the

2888
02:19:23,760 --> 02:19:27,800
Speaker 19: protected community of the state with a consideration of war

2889
02:19:28,240 --> 02:19:31,160
Speaker 19: through the state's power against internal enemies as well as

2890
02:19:31,200 --> 02:19:34,200
Speaker 19: external enemies. And this is the devil's bargain that we make.

2891
02:19:34,280 --> 02:19:38,320
Speaker 19: It's like Hobbs on steroids. And it feels like a

2892
02:19:38,320 --> 02:19:40,840
Speaker 19: lot of the stuff that the Heritage Foundation and Project

2893
02:19:40,840 --> 02:19:44,080
Speaker 19: twenty twenty five has been pushing is that they have this.

2894
02:19:44,160 --> 02:19:47,480
Speaker 19: I know that there are some theocrats in that movement.

2895
02:19:47,879 --> 02:19:52,240
Speaker 19: There's the unitary executive theory that a lot of them

2896
02:19:52,240 --> 02:19:55,120
Speaker 19: have been pushing, and they'll play with this idea like

2897
02:19:55,120 --> 02:19:57,520
Speaker 19: the Trump administration will play with this identity of the

2898
02:19:57,640 --> 02:20:01,080
Speaker 19: King King Trump or whatever the on as it were,

2899
02:20:01,320 --> 02:20:04,720
Speaker 19: like making these executive decisions and being unbeholden to anything else.

2900
02:20:04,760 --> 02:20:08,199
Speaker 19: And they've actually been like, you know, saying to courts,

2901
02:20:08,280 --> 02:20:10,640
Speaker 19: you can't stop us from deporting these peoples who with

2902
02:20:10,840 --> 02:20:15,560
Speaker 19: unsafe third country whatever, stop us. I wonder if, like

2903
02:20:15,760 --> 02:20:18,520
Speaker 19: I wonder if you have any comments on this, if

2904
02:20:18,560 --> 02:20:20,040
Speaker 19: I'm coming out of left field or what.

2905
02:20:20,480 --> 02:20:23,360
Speaker 10: Well, look, I'll say this for Carl Schmidt as opposed

2906
02:20:23,400 --> 02:20:27,040
Speaker 10: to the Heritage Foundation, he was at least intellectually honest.

2907
02:20:27,520 --> 02:20:29,960
Speaker 11: Yeah, I think that we are in this moment where

2908
02:20:29,959 --> 02:20:32,240
Speaker 11: they're trying to normalize what we Schmidt would have called

2909
02:20:32,320 --> 02:20:36,080
Speaker 11: like a state of exception, where they're sort of unbridled

2910
02:20:36,320 --> 02:20:40,320
Speaker 11: executive power and the sort of suspension of any constraints

2911
02:20:40,400 --> 02:20:41,199
Speaker 11: on state power.

2912
02:20:41,320 --> 02:20:46,200
Speaker 10: Right. And it's funny because I've been in conversations over

2913
02:20:46,240 --> 02:20:49,080
Speaker 10: the last months where I'm talking with a bunch of

2914
02:20:49,080 --> 02:20:52,640
Speaker 10: my friends, none of whom are particularly enamored of the

2915
02:20:52,680 --> 02:20:56,000
Speaker 10: current legal regime, and we're talking about how dangerous it

2916
02:20:56,040 --> 02:20:59,000
Speaker 10: is that the administration is dispensing with the rule of law,

2917
02:20:59,280 --> 02:21:02,080
Speaker 10: you know, And it's sort of amusing for a bunch

2918
02:21:02,080 --> 02:21:04,320
Speaker 10: of anarchists to be like, oh, no, the rule of

2919
02:21:04,400 --> 02:21:07,760
Speaker 10: laws collapsing. But when I'm talking about the rule of

2920
02:21:07,840 --> 02:21:10,640
Speaker 10: law in this way, I'm really talking about constraints on

2921
02:21:10,760 --> 02:21:13,560
Speaker 10: state power, and those are what's collapsing. And that's exactly

2922
02:21:13,600 --> 02:21:17,879
Speaker 10: what Schmidt envisioned and argued for. Frankly, and I do

2923
02:21:17,920 --> 02:21:19,440
Speaker 10: think we're seeing that. I think one of the things

2924
02:21:19,480 --> 02:21:22,000
Speaker 10: that I noticed in some of these eos, especially the

2925
02:21:22,520 --> 02:21:24,920
Speaker 10: couple of statements from the last few days, is he

2926
02:21:25,040 --> 02:21:28,120
Speaker 10: keeps talking about things like love of God and Christian

2927
02:21:28,120 --> 02:21:32,640
Speaker 10: anti Christian sentiment, which is I mean, you know, this

2928
02:21:32,840 --> 02:21:38,000
Speaker 10: is entirely incompatible with the First Amendment, which provides no

2929
02:21:38,120 --> 02:21:42,320
Speaker 10: state shall establish your religion, right. I mean, we really

2930
02:21:42,400 --> 02:21:49,199
Speaker 10: are outside the contours of recognized you know, legal norms,

2931
02:21:49,560 --> 02:21:53,640
Speaker 10: constitutional norms, and I think a lot of this stuff

2932
02:21:53,760 --> 02:21:57,600
Speaker 10: is functioning and is meant to normalize this kind of

2933
02:21:57,760 --> 02:22:02,640
Speaker 10: discourse and to inject it not only into the exercise

2934
02:22:02,680 --> 02:22:06,560
Speaker 10: of government power, but to normalize it in terms of

2935
02:22:06,600 --> 02:22:10,720
Speaker 10: what people understand to be legitimate legal discourse.

2936
02:22:21,320 --> 02:22:24,440
Speaker 19: Kind of shifting a bit like let's get into some

2937
02:22:24,560 --> 02:22:27,560
Speaker 19: of the implications of this. So if it hasn't changed law,

2938
02:22:27,640 --> 02:22:31,359
Speaker 19: but we recognize that practices and culture are being shifted.

2939
02:22:31,600 --> 02:22:33,480
Speaker 19: I've heard of a bunch of people getting fired and

2940
02:22:33,560 --> 02:22:36,879
Speaker 19: getting docsing attention. There's a website now I think called

2941
02:22:36,920 --> 02:22:38,959
Speaker 19: like who Killed Charlie Kirk? Are the people who killed

2942
02:22:39,040 --> 02:22:40,840
Speaker 19: Charlie Kirk or something like that, and maybe an app.

2943
02:22:40,920 --> 02:22:45,360
Speaker 19: It's kind of like the post Charlie Kirk assassination version

2944
02:22:45,400 --> 02:22:48,320
Speaker 19: of Canary emission. Does this mean that police are coming

2945
02:22:48,360 --> 02:22:51,760
Speaker 19: after people for sharing memes? Is that happening? Is that

2946
02:22:51,800 --> 02:22:53,160
Speaker 19: what's happening in these cases?

2947
02:22:54,040 --> 02:22:56,520
Speaker 10: I mean police have always been coming after people for

2948
02:22:56,560 --> 02:23:00,600
Speaker 10: sharing memes. I would say, I get calls at least

2949
02:23:00,720 --> 02:23:05,039
Speaker 10: every month from people who have been visited by federal

2950
02:23:05,080 --> 02:23:09,120
Speaker 10: agents because they said something on the Internet that was

2951
02:23:09,240 --> 02:23:11,760
Speaker 10: upsetting to somebody else and then they reported it, and

2952
02:23:11,800 --> 02:23:14,920
Speaker 10: the FBI is just following up on a tip. But

2953
02:23:15,400 --> 02:23:19,600
Speaker 10: that said, this doesn't vitiate the First Amendment. Let me

2954
02:23:19,640 --> 02:23:20,920
Speaker 10: say that in human.

2955
02:23:20,720 --> 02:23:22,360
Speaker 12: Language, thank you.

2956
02:23:23,640 --> 02:23:28,879
Speaker 10: This does not undermine the First Amendment. The First Amendment

2957
02:23:28,959 --> 02:23:34,640
Speaker 10: still exists, and all of the legal framework around having

2958
02:23:34,680 --> 02:23:37,080
Speaker 10: the right to say things as long as those things

2959
02:23:37,120 --> 02:23:42,360
Speaker 10: are not true threats, that still exists. So it is

2960
02:23:42,400 --> 02:23:48,520
Speaker 10: not unusual for people to be targeted or monitored or

2961
02:23:48,600 --> 02:23:52,600
Speaker 10: visited by law enforcement, but typically that stuff doesn't actually

2962
02:23:52,600 --> 02:23:56,600
Speaker 10: really go anywhere. I am concerned about people being subject

2963
02:23:56,600 --> 02:24:01,119
Speaker 10: to doxing and having negative social content sequences and fallout

2964
02:24:01,240 --> 02:24:04,120
Speaker 10: from this kind of stuff, and it certainly is you know,

2965
02:24:04,200 --> 02:24:08,560
Speaker 10: can be life ruining. Again, I don't mean to trivialize

2966
02:24:08,600 --> 02:24:12,840
Speaker 10: the effects of this kind of retaliation social retaliate, but

2967
02:24:12,959 --> 02:24:16,720
Speaker 10: it is not the same thing as a criminal prosecution

2968
02:24:16,840 --> 02:24:21,000
Speaker 10: or a criminal conviction. It's a different set of mechanisms. Now,

2969
02:24:21,120 --> 02:24:23,680
Speaker 10: one thing that I do think is interesting is that

2970
02:24:23,920 --> 02:24:27,080
Speaker 10: these eos and the statement that came out on the

2971
02:24:27,120 --> 02:24:31,880
Speaker 10: twenty second and yesterday particularly identify certain modes of that

2972
02:24:32,480 --> 02:24:36,560
Speaker 10: kind of social conduct that you're talking about, like dotsing swatting, right,

2973
02:24:36,640 --> 02:24:40,199
Speaker 10: which is making a false report of like an ongoing

2974
02:24:40,240 --> 02:24:43,119
Speaker 10: violent crime so that a swat team shows up and

2975
02:24:43,280 --> 02:24:44,560
Speaker 10: raids somebody's.

2976
02:24:44,120 --> 02:24:47,080
Speaker 12: Home, which could be deadly right, This is.

2977
02:24:47,600 --> 02:24:52,400
Speaker 10: Very dangerous and interestingly to me anyway, there are these

2978
02:24:52,440 --> 02:24:56,760
Speaker 10: specific behaviors that are identified and condemned in those statements,

2979
02:24:57,040 --> 02:25:00,760
Speaker 10: and those specific behaviors are largely tool of the right.

2980
02:25:01,120 --> 02:25:04,760
Speaker 10: People on the left are not notably interested in sending

2981
02:25:04,840 --> 02:25:07,760
Speaker 10: law enforcement to someone's house. So there is a perverse

2982
02:25:07,800 --> 02:25:10,039
Speaker 10: way in which this may end up being sort of protective,

2983
02:25:10,280 --> 02:25:13,080
Speaker 10: I suppose, because I think it would be very difficult

2984
02:25:13,280 --> 02:25:16,320
Speaker 10: for the government to go after the people who are

2985
02:25:16,360 --> 02:25:21,800
Speaker 10: exposing ICE agents, which again is not illegal right now.

2986
02:25:22,160 --> 02:25:25,440
Speaker 10: Even if it were to become illegal, it isn't right now,

2987
02:25:25,760 --> 02:25:27,200
Speaker 10: and it would be very hard for them to go

2988
02:25:27,280 --> 02:25:31,840
Speaker 10: after those folks and not also go after the folks

2989
02:25:31,879 --> 02:25:35,600
Speaker 10: who are running that silly website about people who say

2990
02:25:35,640 --> 02:25:37,240
Speaker 10: something mean about Charlie Kirk.

2991
02:25:37,440 --> 02:25:39,040
Speaker 19: Yeah, I mean, I guess to me, And this is

2992
02:25:39,080 --> 02:25:42,520
Speaker 19: the speculation outside of like legal advice or any not

2993
02:25:42,600 --> 02:25:45,039
Speaker 19: that we're giving legal advice, but outside of like the legal.

2994
02:25:44,800 --> 02:25:47,200
Speaker 10: Framework, definitely not giving legal advice.

2995
02:25:47,400 --> 02:25:48,800
Speaker 19: I mean it kind of points to a thing that

2996
02:25:48,879 --> 02:25:54,160
Speaker 19: already this hypocrisy or this difference between what it's called

2997
02:25:54,200 --> 02:25:56,959
Speaker 19: when one party does it versus what it's called when

2998
02:25:56,959 --> 02:25:58,920
Speaker 19: another party does it, like outside of the fact that

2999
02:25:58,959 --> 02:26:00,280
Speaker 19: the government gets to do what it was wants to

3000
02:26:00,400 --> 02:26:03,200
Speaker 19: until the government stops itself from doing a thing. I mean,

3001
02:26:03,240 --> 02:26:05,200
Speaker 19: it feels like it's a part of the creation of

3002
02:26:05,240 --> 02:26:09,720
Speaker 19: a differentiated subjectivity. Like there's the subject of the state

3003
02:26:09,920 --> 02:26:16,440
Speaker 19: that falls under the values that are being attacked Christianity, whiteness, heteronormativity,

3004
02:26:17,320 --> 02:26:22,080
Speaker 19: these like patriotism in these certain ways versus the people

3005
02:26:22,120 --> 02:26:27,440
Speaker 19: that are doing these same things but are corrupt, are dirty,

3006
02:26:27,840 --> 02:26:33,400
Speaker 19: are outside our internal enemies, are Soros funded. However we

3007
02:26:33,520 --> 02:26:37,480
Speaker 19: want to like that. But yeah, I guess that's not

3008
02:26:37,520 --> 02:26:39,680
Speaker 19: I mean, that's this is nothing new. It's just an

3009
02:26:39,680 --> 02:26:41,560
Speaker 19: amplification of that same right.

3010
02:26:41,720 --> 02:26:46,400
Speaker 10: Yeah, very much. And you know what is changing a

3011
02:26:46,560 --> 02:26:49,560
Speaker 10: little bit, although all of these threads have been present,

3012
02:26:50,040 --> 02:26:53,560
Speaker 10: is that this administration is rationalizing this particular kind of

3013
02:26:53,600 --> 02:26:58,800
Speaker 10: targeting with respect to in particular Palestine, solidarity movements, gender

3014
02:26:58,840 --> 02:27:01,680
Speaker 10: and unconforming people, and what they're calling anti buzz. So,

3015
02:27:01,879 --> 02:27:05,760
Speaker 10: you know, we're seeing we've been seeing congressional investigations, the

3016
02:27:05,840 --> 02:27:10,200
Speaker 10: allocation of funds to federal law enforcement, purging not just individuals,

3017
02:27:10,280 --> 02:27:15,200
Speaker 10: but whole agencies that the administration feels are insufficiently aligned

3018
02:27:15,200 --> 02:27:18,440
Speaker 10: with its priority replacing federal law enforcement that and I

3019
02:27:18,520 --> 02:27:22,080
Speaker 10: mean ranging from FBI agents on the ground to doj

3020
02:27:22,920 --> 02:27:30,640
Speaker 10: with people who will enthusiastically and blindly pursue these priorities,

3021
02:27:31,080 --> 02:27:34,160
Speaker 10: and using a lot of resources to target the nonprofit

3022
02:27:34,280 --> 02:27:38,920
Speaker 10: text status and funding of groups identified as being aligned

3023
02:27:38,920 --> 02:27:42,600
Speaker 10: with any of the disfavored movements. And one of the

3024
02:27:42,640 --> 02:27:46,640
Speaker 10: things that they're doing is kind of it's this real spaghetti,

3025
02:27:46,959 --> 02:27:51,000
Speaker 10: you know, throwing everything at it, and it's very overwhelming.

3026
02:27:51,400 --> 02:27:56,120
Speaker 10: It's overwhelming for movement infrastructure, it's overwhelming for legal for

3027
02:27:56,600 --> 02:27:59,840
Speaker 10: people on the ground, and it's all happening at once,

3028
02:28:00,360 --> 02:28:03,680
Speaker 10: and I think it's all being it's mutually compounding, it's

3029
02:28:03,760 --> 02:28:08,520
Speaker 10: mutually reinforcing, it's demoralizing, and in particular, the stuff that's

3030
02:28:08,520 --> 02:28:14,240
Speaker 10: happening with immigration is so devastating, and because immigration is

3031
02:28:14,320 --> 02:28:18,320
Speaker 10: so wholly under the control of the executive. That is

3032
02:28:18,360 --> 02:28:21,560
Speaker 10: an area where he's able to sort of make a

3033
02:28:21,680 --> 02:28:24,760
Speaker 10: policy and make it so and have it be carried

3034
02:28:24,800 --> 02:28:28,199
Speaker 10: out by FIAT. And he has made his own private

3035
02:28:28,800 --> 02:28:33,680
Speaker 10: army with ice. And I think one of the effects

3036
02:28:33,720 --> 02:28:37,240
Speaker 10: that I in just in my observation, that that has

3037
02:28:37,320 --> 02:28:41,760
Speaker 10: had is that people see that happening and assume that

3038
02:28:41,800 --> 02:28:45,360
Speaker 10: he has that level of control over everything else. And

3039
02:28:45,440 --> 02:28:49,000
Speaker 10: I do want to point out, like, again, it's absolutely

3040
02:28:49,560 --> 02:28:53,800
Speaker 10: devastating to see what's happening in the immigration space, but

3041
02:28:54,320 --> 02:28:59,080
Speaker 10: in fact he does not have that level of control

3042
02:28:59,400 --> 02:29:04,040
Speaker 10: over the ret of government and over non immigration laws,

3043
02:29:04,360 --> 02:29:06,320
Speaker 10: and I think that's really important to remember.

3044
02:29:06,840 --> 02:29:10,360
Speaker 19: Yeah, it seems about pushing boundaries and experimenting. There's a

3045
02:29:10,360 --> 02:29:11,840
Speaker 19: lot of people that have talked and not to get

3046
02:29:11,879 --> 02:29:14,080
Speaker 19: too far down the road with this, but like with

3047
02:29:14,320 --> 02:29:19,320
Speaker 19: the like attempt to normalize sending national guard or sending

3048
02:29:19,400 --> 02:29:24,760
Speaker 19: active military to different states, or federalizing national guards to

3049
02:29:24,800 --> 02:29:28,440
Speaker 19: be present from different states in these places, almost like

3050
02:29:28,520 --> 02:29:33,520
Speaker 19: if it's constant and like overlapping enough, then eventually just

3051
02:29:33,720 --> 02:29:37,080
Speaker 19: military being on the streets generally rousing houseless folks is

3052
02:29:37,120 --> 02:29:38,920
Speaker 19: going to be a normalized thing.

3053
02:29:39,920 --> 02:29:42,520
Speaker 10: Man, I'm in New York. There's military people in all

3054
02:29:43,120 --> 02:29:47,199
Speaker 10: price like that got very normalized post nine to eleven

3055
02:29:47,360 --> 02:29:50,880
Speaker 10: in certain places. And so you know, again this is

3056
02:29:50,879 --> 02:29:53,879
Speaker 10: not to say that it's okay, but it isn't new.

3057
02:29:54,400 --> 02:30:01,040
Speaker 19: So to get back to antifa, Sure, Antifa, Antifa. How

3058
02:30:01,120 --> 02:30:05,879
Speaker 19: is the administration identifying Antifa and the left and what

3059
02:30:06,320 --> 02:30:09,960
Speaker 19: are they actually dismantling and attacking. I'm thinking like he

3060
02:30:10,120 --> 02:30:15,080
Speaker 19: loves talking about bilfunds or like lgbt QIA, youth advocacy organizations,

3061
02:30:16,080 --> 02:30:18,840
Speaker 19: secularist groups, like yeah, what's going on?

3062
02:30:19,040 --> 02:30:21,840
Speaker 10: Yeah, well this is this is where things get really fun.

3063
02:30:22,280 --> 02:30:24,640
Speaker 10: Most of the groups that are actually being targeted are

3064
02:30:24,640 --> 02:30:31,040
Speaker 10: not remotely related to antifa. George Soros is not antifa,

3065
02:30:31,600 --> 02:30:35,840
Speaker 10: the various legal defense funds are not Antifa. Antifa is

3066
02:30:35,879 --> 02:30:38,920
Speaker 10: the rationale, but not the reality. So one of the

3067
02:30:39,200 --> 02:30:41,680
Speaker 10: interesting issues here is that a significant group of the

3068
02:30:41,720 --> 02:30:44,080
Speaker 10: people who really need to be very worried are people

3069
02:30:44,120 --> 02:30:48,160
Speaker 10: who work in the nonprofit sector, in extremely normal and

3070
02:30:48,280 --> 02:30:52,920
Speaker 10: liberal community advocacy organizations and NGOs. And these are people

3071
02:30:53,240 --> 02:30:57,119
Speaker 10: who have nothing whatsoever to do with Antifa by any

3072
02:30:57,200 --> 02:31:01,560
Speaker 10: stretch of the imagination, who are being attacked, whose funding

3073
02:31:01,640 --> 02:31:05,080
Speaker 10: is being attacked who are primarily I would say at risk,

3074
02:31:05,440 --> 02:31:11,360
Speaker 10: not because they have engaged in anything approaching unlawful conduct,

3075
02:31:11,640 --> 02:31:13,840
Speaker 10: and frankly, I think the biggest risk for many of

3076
02:31:13,840 --> 02:31:18,800
Speaker 10: those people is the anticipatory compliance of their funders. We

3077
02:31:19,160 --> 02:31:22,520
Speaker 10: have seen a really similar thing happen with universities, where

3078
02:31:22,640 --> 02:31:25,680
Speaker 10: universities have been targeted by the state, by the federal

3079
02:31:25,760 --> 02:31:30,199
Speaker 10: government and have been accused in particular of anti Semitism,

3080
02:31:30,720 --> 02:31:33,360
Speaker 10: and frankly, I think it would be the work of

3081
02:31:33,400 --> 02:31:38,320
Speaker 10: an afternoon for general counsel at any of these universities

3082
02:31:38,560 --> 02:31:42,920
Speaker 10: to point out that, in fact, there is a legally

3083
02:31:43,040 --> 02:31:49,680
Speaker 10: established difference between anti Semitism and anti Zionism, that criticism

3084
02:31:50,200 --> 02:31:55,120
Speaker 10: of the nation state of Israel is in fact entirely

3085
02:31:55,200 --> 02:32:00,000
Speaker 10: legally distinct from criticism of or threats against Jewish people.

3086
02:32:00,680 --> 02:32:06,360
Speaker 10: And if any of these universities actually bothered to challenge

3087
02:32:07,040 --> 02:32:11,959
Speaker 10: these allegations, I think that they would win in court

3088
02:32:12,280 --> 02:32:12,960
Speaker 10: on the law.

3089
02:32:13,400 --> 02:32:14,199
Speaker 5: And what we're.

3090
02:32:14,000 --> 02:32:20,640
Speaker 10: Seeing instead is the universities declining to challenge these allegations,

3091
02:32:21,480 --> 02:32:25,240
Speaker 10: settling out of court, paying large amounts of money to

3092
02:32:25,320 --> 02:32:31,160
Speaker 10: the allegedly aggrieved parties, and capitulating in ways that are

3093
02:32:31,520 --> 02:32:40,240
Speaker 10: unnecessary unwarranted, not legally justified, irrational, and seed more ground,

3094
02:32:40,760 --> 02:32:44,560
Speaker 10: not just more ground than is legally called for, but

3095
02:32:44,640 --> 02:32:49,160
Speaker 10: more ground than is even being asked for in these cases.

3096
02:32:49,680 --> 02:32:52,520
Speaker 10: And so you know, this is to me one of

3097
02:32:52,600 --> 02:32:56,280
Speaker 10: the great dangers of normalizing these discourses is that these

3098
02:32:56,360 --> 02:33:01,160
Speaker 10: large institutions are engaged in acts of self preservation that

3099
02:33:01,240 --> 02:33:07,000
Speaker 10: actually undermine civil society, when even a small amount of

3100
02:33:07,080 --> 02:33:10,480
Speaker 10: courage would go a very long way to preserving it.

3101
02:33:10,920 --> 02:33:12,879
Speaker 19: I think we also sort of saw this in the

3102
02:33:12,920 --> 02:33:16,000
Speaker 19: early days of the administration with legal firms that had

3103
02:33:16,000 --> 02:33:19,280
Speaker 19: brought challenges to the administration in the past backing down

3104
02:33:19,840 --> 02:33:24,519
Speaker 19: or refusing to offering their fealty or whatever to the administration.

3105
02:33:25,040 --> 02:33:27,200
Speaker 19: And we're seeing it now also with some of these

3106
02:33:27,280 --> 02:33:32,119
Speaker 19: large media corporations silencing some of their pundits or whatever,

3107
02:33:32,480 --> 02:33:34,560
Speaker 19: or in some cases, I mean it's clearly quid pro

3108
02:33:34,680 --> 02:33:39,440
Speaker 19: quo because they've got, you know, a merger that's being

3109
02:33:39,440 --> 02:33:42,199
Speaker 19: discussed by the FCC at the moment.

3110
02:33:42,520 --> 02:33:45,160
Speaker 10: Well, what we've seen, though, we have seen a lot

3111
02:33:45,160 --> 02:33:49,200
Speaker 10: of that sort of craven capitulation. But what we've also

3112
02:33:49,240 --> 02:33:52,480
Speaker 10: seen is when we fight, we win. Now, I'm not

3113
02:33:52,560 --> 02:33:55,360
Speaker 10: trying to be a Pollyanna about this. What I'm trying

3114
02:33:55,400 --> 02:33:57,520
Speaker 10: to say is the demands that are being made by

3115
02:33:57,640 --> 02:34:01,800
Speaker 10: this particular administration are actually so far beyond the pale

3116
02:34:02,280 --> 02:34:05,160
Speaker 10: that based on our legal regime as it currently is,

3117
02:34:05,440 --> 02:34:08,080
Speaker 10: when we fight, we win, and so I think it

3118
02:34:08,160 --> 02:34:14,720
Speaker 10: is very worth reminding people that, however imperfect the law is,

3119
02:34:15,320 --> 02:34:19,000
Speaker 10: the current state of the law forbids much of what

3120
02:34:19,120 --> 02:34:23,359
Speaker 10: this administration is doing, and it is actually worth standing

3121
02:34:23,440 --> 02:34:26,680
Speaker 10: up to it. There are other groups of people similarly

3122
02:34:26,800 --> 02:34:29,880
Speaker 10: who are not related to Antifa, and one of those

3123
02:34:29,920 --> 02:34:35,080
Speaker 10: groups is toasters, like including boomers, who are on Facebook

3124
02:34:35,080 --> 02:34:38,439
Speaker 10: and Twitter making jokes about how the right it's so hypocritical,

3125
02:34:38,640 --> 02:34:42,039
Speaker 10: and those people are getting targeted, and I would just

3126
02:34:42,280 --> 02:34:45,440
Speaker 10: gently remind everyone that the First Amendment does still exist

3127
02:34:45,879 --> 02:34:48,879
Speaker 10: and that the solution to repression is not self censorship

3128
02:34:49,000 --> 02:34:53,280
Speaker 10: but courage. And also, as I have said many times,

3129
02:34:53,320 --> 02:34:57,280
Speaker 10: including to you on this program, discretion is the better

3130
02:34:57,280 --> 02:34:59,440
Speaker 10: part of valor, and not everything needs to be said

3131
02:34:59,480 --> 02:35:02,360
Speaker 10: on the internet, so maybe think about it before you

3132
02:35:02,440 --> 02:35:04,600
Speaker 10: post something that you would not like to hear read

3133
02:35:04,640 --> 02:35:07,480
Speaker 10: back to you by a humorless prosecutor. Then we have

3134
02:35:07,600 --> 02:35:10,240
Speaker 10: these other groups that are engaged in exposing law enforcement,

3135
02:35:10,280 --> 02:35:12,640
Speaker 10: which I referred to a minute ago. And I think

3136
02:35:12,840 --> 02:35:18,080
Speaker 10: the groups that are exposing ICE are definitely going to

3137
02:35:18,120 --> 02:35:20,959
Speaker 10: be targeted have already been targeted for that activity, but

3138
02:35:21,560 --> 02:35:24,920
Speaker 10: it sort of remains to be seen how that can

3139
02:35:25,080 --> 02:35:30,000
Speaker 10: happen while also protecting Canary mission. Right then, we have

3140
02:35:30,120 --> 02:35:34,080
Speaker 10: groups that are being perceived as or identified as Antifa,

3141
02:35:34,160 --> 02:35:36,400
Speaker 10: who are the people who are like doing food not

3142
02:35:36,520 --> 02:35:40,480
Speaker 10: bombs and community gardening and cooperative bookstores and prisoner letter writing,

3143
02:35:40,720 --> 02:35:44,800
Speaker 10: all of which are extremely First Amendment protected activities and

3144
02:35:44,920 --> 02:35:48,439
Speaker 10: all of which are not only likely to be highly surveiled,

3145
02:35:48,600 --> 02:35:51,360
Speaker 10: are already highly surveiled. And this is the group of

3146
02:35:51,400 --> 02:35:53,720
Speaker 10: people who I think are actually probably most used to

3147
02:35:53,760 --> 02:35:56,320
Speaker 10: this and best prepared for it, and also might be

3148
02:35:56,440 --> 02:36:00,640
Speaker 10: really hard to prosecute effectively because they're not doing crimes.

3149
02:36:01,440 --> 02:36:05,199
Speaker 10: And you know, like the NGOs that we were talking about,

3150
02:36:05,240 --> 02:36:07,640
Speaker 10: the biggest point of exposure for all of these groups

3151
02:36:07,720 --> 02:36:10,600
Speaker 10: is likely to be financial. We can certainly anticipate that

3152
02:36:10,640 --> 02:36:13,240
Speaker 10: the state is highly interested in looking at all of

3153
02:36:13,280 --> 02:36:17,400
Speaker 10: our bank records, to the extent that our bank records exist.

3154
02:36:17,879 --> 02:36:18,360
Speaker 5: With all the.

3155
02:36:18,360 --> 02:36:22,240
Speaker 10: Money we have, right like, we're all handing around the

3156
02:36:22,280 --> 02:36:28,959
Speaker 10: same staff of twenty singles to each other. But hey,

3157
02:36:29,160 --> 02:36:32,760
Speaker 10: you know wirefraud. What I can say is that you know,

3158
02:36:32,879 --> 02:36:36,000
Speaker 10: something like a bail fund, and you know, community support

3159
02:36:36,040 --> 02:36:39,240
Speaker 10: funds do need to be very cautious. That has already

3160
02:36:39,520 --> 02:36:42,720
Speaker 10: always been the case, And this is a really good

3161
02:36:42,800 --> 02:36:46,000
Speaker 10: time to hire a CPA to go over your books

3162
02:36:46,000 --> 02:36:49,080
Speaker 10: and to make sure that you have kept really meticulous records,

3163
02:36:49,120 --> 02:36:52,640
Speaker 10: to make sure that if you have raised money for something,

3164
02:36:52,959 --> 02:36:55,640
Speaker 10: you have only used it for the thing that you

3165
02:36:55,720 --> 02:36:58,200
Speaker 10: said it was going to be used for. And this

3166
02:36:58,280 --> 02:37:03,280
Speaker 10: is once again something that largely is a feature of

3167
02:37:03,600 --> 02:37:05,160
Speaker 10: far right organizing.

3168
02:37:05,280 --> 02:37:05,440
Speaker 20: Right.

3169
02:37:05,440 --> 02:37:08,240
Speaker 10: I don't know if you remember, but Steve Bannon was

3170
02:37:08,600 --> 02:37:12,160
Speaker 10: actually prosecuted for wire fraud because he was raising money

3171
02:37:12,200 --> 02:37:13,359
Speaker 10: to do something.

3172
02:37:13,120 --> 02:37:13,680
Speaker 5: Build the wall.

3173
02:37:13,720 --> 02:37:14,480
Speaker 12: Build the wall.

3174
02:37:16,280 --> 02:37:18,640
Speaker 10: He was raising money to build the wall, but not

3175
02:37:18,760 --> 02:37:20,879
Speaker 10: using it for that purpose, which is wire fraud.

3176
02:37:20,959 --> 02:37:21,119
Speaker 11: Right.

3177
02:37:21,160 --> 02:37:24,080
Speaker 10: So if you run a bail fund, presumably you already

3178
02:37:24,160 --> 02:37:27,720
Speaker 10: know that you have to be very careful about how

3179
02:37:27,760 --> 02:37:30,200
Speaker 10: you raise that money and how you monitor and track

3180
02:37:30,240 --> 02:37:32,480
Speaker 10: and use that money. So most of the people, I

3181
02:37:32,480 --> 02:37:35,039
Speaker 10: would say, the overwhelming majority of people who are sort

3182
02:37:35,080 --> 02:37:37,199
Speaker 10: of going to be subject to this kind of monitoring

3183
02:37:37,320 --> 02:37:40,640
Speaker 10: A have already been subject to it, and b haven't

3184
02:37:40,680 --> 02:37:44,200
Speaker 10: actually done anything unlawful. And you know that doesn't mean

3185
02:37:44,240 --> 02:37:47,240
Speaker 10: this won't be disrupted. It just means, Look, I'm not

3186
02:37:47,320 --> 02:37:49,600
Speaker 10: naive enough to say that your innocence will protect you,

3187
02:37:49,959 --> 02:37:52,280
Speaker 10: but it's a good start. And then we have folks

3188
02:37:52,280 --> 02:37:56,600
Speaker 10: who maybe actually do engage in unlawful conduct or revolutionary action,

3189
02:37:57,040 --> 02:38:01,760
Speaker 10: or people about whom that claim could somewhat credibly be made.

3190
02:38:01,800 --> 02:38:04,920
Speaker 10: And that's actually just a different a different group, right,

3191
02:38:05,080 --> 02:38:08,360
Speaker 10: And those things were illegal last week and they're illegal now,

3192
02:38:08,440 --> 02:38:11,640
Speaker 10: and they're not more illegal because they're politically motivated. Right,

3193
02:38:11,680 --> 02:38:15,280
Speaker 10: Although you know there are terrorism enhancements and sentencing enhancements

3194
02:38:15,360 --> 02:38:18,160
Speaker 10: and things like that. The fact is, like, you know,

3195
02:38:18,200 --> 02:38:21,960
Speaker 10: it can't be more illegal to spray paint Free Gaza

3196
02:38:22,400 --> 02:38:24,800
Speaker 10: on the side of a building than it is to

3197
02:38:24,959 --> 02:38:27,720
Speaker 10: spray paint I Love Trump on the side of a building. Right.

3198
02:38:28,280 --> 02:38:30,680
Speaker 19: I mean, what whether or not this like pans out

3199
02:38:30,680 --> 02:38:32,720
Speaker 19: in the courts, right is one thing. But I know

3200
02:38:32,760 --> 02:38:35,200
Speaker 19: that like, say, for the library case that happened here

3201
02:38:35,240 --> 02:38:38,800
Speaker 19: where people were arrested because some people were filming in

3202
02:38:39,400 --> 02:38:45,640
Speaker 19: this like Palestine related workshop in a public library and

3203
02:38:46,120 --> 02:38:49,160
Speaker 19: they were asked to stop filming, and then a scuffle

3204
02:38:49,200 --> 02:38:51,080
Speaker 19: broke out and a phone got knocked to the ground

3205
02:38:51,080 --> 02:38:54,480
Speaker 19: and people got apparently dragged outside. Again, I was not

3206
02:38:54,560 --> 02:38:57,879
Speaker 19: there for this, but like now the people are facing

3207
02:38:58,040 --> 02:38:59,480
Speaker 19: like people who were in the crowd, who are not

3208
02:38:59,560 --> 02:39:02,480
Speaker 19: the people who were filming or facing charges of ethnic intimidation.

3209
02:39:03,160 --> 02:39:05,440
Speaker 19: That's a very specific case in a different jurisdiction from

3210
02:39:05,440 --> 02:39:09,720
Speaker 19: where you are practicing law. But it's not just about

3211
02:39:09,760 --> 02:39:13,000
Speaker 19: like what's being charged against them isn't about assaults per se.

3212
02:39:13,160 --> 02:39:19,119
Speaker 19: It's this enhanced politically driven statement based on the rhetoric

3213
02:39:19,200 --> 02:39:21,080
Speaker 19: that's you know, based on the politics.

3214
02:39:21,120 --> 02:39:21,280
Speaker 8: Right.

3215
02:39:21,600 --> 02:39:24,520
Speaker 10: Absolutely, And I'm glad you pointed that out, because I

3216
02:39:24,600 --> 02:39:28,800
Speaker 10: certainly do not want to suggest that politically motivated prosecutions

3217
02:39:29,560 --> 02:39:36,520
Speaker 10: don't happen. They absolutely happen. These reset statements don't change

3218
02:39:36,720 --> 02:39:39,800
Speaker 10: the way in which they happen, right, And there are

3219
02:39:39,920 --> 02:39:44,880
Speaker 10: ways of targeting people for prosecution based on their politics,

3220
02:39:45,280 --> 02:39:49,680
Speaker 10: and those have those are again not new. I think

3221
02:39:49,480 --> 02:39:52,560
Speaker 10: the point that I'm trying to make is that I

3222
02:39:52,640 --> 02:39:57,560
Speaker 10: don't think this has changed substantively. Yeah, like the fact

3223
02:39:57,560 --> 02:40:02,560
Speaker 10: that the President said at a domestic terrorist organization just

3224
02:40:02,640 --> 02:40:06,560
Speaker 10: doesn't really change the legal landscape. This has been the

3225
02:40:06,640 --> 02:40:10,200
Speaker 10: targeted surveillance of the left, whether you call it anti FA,

3226
02:40:10,320 --> 02:40:13,360
Speaker 10: whether it's the Green Scare, whether it's the Black Liberation Army.

3227
02:40:13,840 --> 02:40:17,640
Speaker 10: This has been a priority for decades of administrations. More

3228
02:40:17,680 --> 02:40:21,320
Speaker 10: and more legislation has been developed to criminalize garden variety

3229
02:40:21,360 --> 02:40:24,520
Speaker 10: protest conduct. We saw that a lot around Standing Rock

3230
02:40:24,600 --> 02:40:28,760
Speaker 10: and BLM. More and more resources are allocated to testing

3231
02:40:28,879 --> 02:40:34,160
Speaker 10: creative strategies for monitoring and criminalizing political activities. You know, again,

3232
02:40:34,240 --> 02:40:36,320
Speaker 10: state repression and the tools that are used in the

3233
02:40:36,320 --> 02:40:39,560
Speaker 10: service of state repression are just not new. And the

3234
02:40:39,600 --> 02:40:42,760
Speaker 10: fact that you put out these statements is maybe a

3235
02:40:42,800 --> 02:40:47,240
Speaker 10: good reminder that we should be circumspect and aware of

3236
02:40:47,480 --> 02:40:49,640
Speaker 10: repression and prepared to bear up under it.

3237
02:41:00,640 --> 02:41:04,240
Speaker 19: So is the RICO sixty one Atlanta case a model

3238
02:41:04,360 --> 02:41:06,640
Speaker 19: for what we see moving forward at a federal level

3239
02:41:07,000 --> 02:41:12,040
Speaker 19: in relation to these domestic terrorism charges, conspiracy, racketeering, the

3240
02:41:12,160 --> 02:41:15,800
Speaker 19: focus on bail funds, and other abolitionist infrastructure, civil liberties

3241
02:41:15,879 --> 02:41:20,800
Speaker 19: organizations like Section H of that September twenty fifth statement

3242
02:41:21,280 --> 02:41:25,600
Speaker 19: refers to the Attorney General pursuing quote, politically motivated terrorist

3243
02:41:25,640 --> 02:41:31,039
Speaker 19: acts such as organizing docs and campaigns, swatting, rioting, looting, trespass, assault,

3244
02:41:31,200 --> 02:41:35,560
Speaker 19: destruction of property, threats of violence, and civil disorder. Like,

3245
02:41:35,600 --> 02:41:37,400
Speaker 19: I know those are all things that you know, they've

3246
02:41:37,440 --> 02:41:40,760
Speaker 19: already got charges attached to them. It's just these are

3247
02:41:40,760 --> 02:41:44,320
Speaker 19: now being framed within the framework of being terrorist acts.

3248
02:41:44,879 --> 02:41:48,320
Speaker 19: But you know, you said, like these practices of attacking

3249
02:41:48,320 --> 02:41:53,959
Speaker 19: adjacent like supportive movement and civil society organs is. It's

3250
02:41:54,000 --> 02:41:56,320
Speaker 19: not in and of itself new, but it seems like

3251
02:41:56,360 --> 02:41:59,920
Speaker 19: the framing, especially with the Atlanta case where the process

3252
02:42:00,080 --> 02:42:02,440
Speaker 19: Cuters brought up at the beginning Eric like they gave

3253
02:42:02,440 --> 02:42:06,760
Speaker 19: a Merriam Webster Dictionary definition of anarchism and then said,

3254
02:42:06,760 --> 02:42:08,879
Speaker 19: all these people fall under this umbrella because they all

3255
02:42:08,879 --> 02:42:12,840
Speaker 19: have this ideology, therefore they are a conspiracy. Is that

3256
02:42:12,959 --> 02:42:15,520
Speaker 19: what the administration is trying to do? And is that

3257
02:42:15,640 --> 02:42:18,520
Speaker 19: different from what they've already done at a federal level.

3258
02:42:19,000 --> 02:42:21,520
Speaker 10: So, first of all, I do think that that's very

3259
02:42:21,640 --> 02:42:24,440
Speaker 10: likely that they will try. I think this is signaling

3260
02:42:25,160 --> 02:42:28,280
Speaker 10: a real interest in that. I don't think that's particularly new,

3261
02:42:28,320 --> 02:42:31,920
Speaker 10: but I think that it's clearly being prioritized. So let's

3262
02:42:31,920 --> 02:42:37,840
Speaker 10: talk about Rico Rigo. Let's talk about Rigo Briefly, RICO

3263
02:42:38,040 --> 02:42:42,720
Speaker 10: is the Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act, and it

3264
02:42:42,800 --> 02:42:45,960
Speaker 10: was enacted in I think nineteen seventy to go after

3265
02:42:46,000 --> 02:42:49,480
Speaker 10: the mob. Right, it was to go after crime families.

3266
02:42:49,879 --> 02:42:53,600
Speaker 10: But it's been used against so called gangs and other

3267
02:42:53,800 --> 02:42:57,400
Speaker 10: politically motivated prosecutions for a long time, and so RICO

3268
02:42:57,440 --> 02:43:01,039
Speaker 10: has really used to kind of criminalize whole communities. But

3269
02:43:01,120 --> 02:43:06,560
Speaker 10: it requires that an actual crime has happened. Right, Association

3270
02:43:07,240 --> 02:43:11,240
Speaker 10: or ideology in itself is not sufficient, So it requires

3271
02:43:11,280 --> 02:43:14,360
Speaker 10: an actual crime has happened. And it also requires an

3272
02:43:14,720 --> 02:43:19,720
Speaker 10: quote an enterprise, like a coordinated enterprise. And because the

3273
02:43:19,720 --> 02:43:24,400
Speaker 10: First Amendment protects association and a large diffuse group of

3274
02:43:24,440 --> 02:43:29,199
Speaker 10: people sharing values is not an enterprise. You know, I'm

3275
02:43:29,200 --> 02:43:32,720
Speaker 10: not sure. It's not a straightforward path to say we

3276
02:43:32,840 --> 02:43:35,840
Speaker 10: want to use REGO in a politically motiv motivated way

3277
02:43:36,240 --> 02:43:40,080
Speaker 10: and to actually be able to capture this group under

3278
02:43:40,080 --> 02:43:43,760
Speaker 10: a net. Right. That's like, you know, saying we want

3279
02:43:43,760 --> 02:43:46,840
Speaker 10: to go after Antifa is like saying we want to

3280
02:43:46,840 --> 02:43:51,240
Speaker 10: go after people who like cats. Right, there are people

3281
02:43:51,320 --> 02:43:55,680
Speaker 10: who like cats, but they certainly aren't coordinating together. I

3282
02:43:55,720 --> 02:43:59,199
Speaker 10: suppose that there are actually people who would say, like, yes,

3283
02:43:59,320 --> 02:44:03,360
Speaker 10: I identify strongly with this set of values, but it's

3284
02:44:03,360 --> 02:44:07,160
Speaker 10: not a membership organization, and it would, I think, be

3285
02:44:07,280 --> 02:44:11,480
Speaker 10: very difficult to mount a prosecution, or to mount a

3286
02:44:11,520 --> 02:44:15,720
Speaker 10: successful prosecution on the basis of what are clearly First

3287
02:44:15,760 --> 02:44:19,560
Speaker 10: Amendment protected beliefs and associations. And there's pretty good law

3288
02:44:19,560 --> 02:44:23,359
Speaker 10: on this point, actually, and it comes from an effort

3289
02:44:23,400 --> 02:44:28,480
Speaker 10: to prosecute a bunch of anti abortion protesters under RICO

3290
02:44:29,000 --> 02:44:31,160
Speaker 10: and the court said you can't do that. The fact

3291
02:44:31,160 --> 02:44:33,280
Speaker 10: that there's a large group of people who happen to

3292
02:44:33,280 --> 02:44:35,120
Speaker 10: believe the same things does not mean that they are

3293
02:44:35,560 --> 02:44:39,039
Speaker 10: an enterprise. So look, don't get me wrong again, this

3294
02:44:39,080 --> 02:44:42,800
Speaker 10: would be hugely disruptive, but it would be very difficult

3295
02:44:42,800 --> 02:44:46,000
Speaker 10: to sustain an effective prosecution or obtain a conviction if

3296
02:44:46,000 --> 02:44:50,320
Speaker 10: there was one competent investigator, prosecutor judge or jury member

3297
02:44:50,440 --> 02:44:55,600
Speaker 10: anywhere along the way. But yes, hugely disruptive if they

3298
02:44:55,680 --> 02:44:59,000
Speaker 10: managed to do it. I would like to know something

3299
02:44:59,040 --> 02:45:02,960
Speaker 10: about the Stoff cups city Rico. That's important. So first

3300
02:45:02,959 --> 02:45:07,640
Speaker 10: of all, yay, all those all those charges, those Ricos

3301
02:45:07,680 --> 02:45:11,600
Speaker 10: were dismissed for legal reasons of being utter bolts. And

3302
02:45:11,800 --> 02:45:15,120
Speaker 10: I know that. You know, there's some concern that that

3303
02:45:15,200 --> 02:45:18,960
Speaker 10: will be appealed, but I think it is worth noting

3304
02:45:18,959 --> 02:45:20,800
Speaker 10: and celebrating that when we fight, we win.

3305
02:45:21,240 --> 02:45:22,400
Speaker 5: But sort of more to.

3306
02:45:22,360 --> 02:45:24,920
Speaker 10: The point in this context, I do want to note

3307
02:45:25,000 --> 02:45:28,800
Speaker 10: that Georgia's RICO statute is different from the federal RICO statute,

3308
02:45:28,800 --> 02:45:32,119
Speaker 10: and it's actually even worse than the federal RICO statute,

3309
02:45:32,120 --> 02:45:35,160
Speaker 10: and it still couldn't be effectively used in this way.

3310
02:45:35,400 --> 02:45:39,280
Speaker 10: And also federal RICO has often failed. Right, Efforts to

3311
02:45:39,440 --> 02:45:43,360
Speaker 10: use federal RICO in a politically motivated way have also failed.

3312
02:45:43,400 --> 02:45:45,600
Speaker 10: So if you look up like the Ohio seven, which

3313
02:45:45,680 --> 02:45:48,359
Speaker 10: was a fairly early effort to bring a politically motivated

3314
02:45:48,400 --> 02:45:51,800
Speaker 10: RICO that did not go great for the government. So yeah,

3315
02:45:51,840 --> 02:45:53,920
Speaker 10: I think that's important to note about RICO.

3316
02:45:54,280 --> 02:45:59,200
Speaker 19: So you mentioned this like FBI designation earlier, it had

3317
02:45:59,280 --> 02:46:02,320
Speaker 19: been for a while, I think under I thought this

3318
02:46:02,400 --> 02:46:05,600
Speaker 19: came up under Obama, but maybe it came up under

3319
02:46:05,640 --> 02:46:09,439
Speaker 19: Biden for the prosecution of January sixth, But anti government extremists,

3320
02:46:09,520 --> 02:46:14,160
Speaker 19: which included militia movements and also anarchists, it's been shifted

3321
02:46:14,200 --> 02:46:17,640
Speaker 19: to far left extremists. In the verbiage of the boj

3322
02:46:17,879 --> 02:46:21,920
Speaker 19: and who they're pursuing. Anti law enforcement and anti conservative

3323
02:46:22,480 --> 02:46:26,840
Speaker 19: attacks have been framed as you know of considered effort

3324
02:46:27,000 --> 02:46:32,200
Speaker 19: by far left extremists in the media and also like

3325
02:46:32,320 --> 02:46:35,800
Speaker 19: by these institutions as they're you know, moving forward before

3326
02:46:35,840 --> 02:46:38,199
Speaker 19: they actually make any arrests or whatever, and through their prosecution,

3327
02:46:38,680 --> 02:46:41,640
Speaker 19: sometimes using terms like you know, antifa or trantifa or

3328
02:46:41,680 --> 02:46:45,480
Speaker 19: whatever sort of motivations they're giving. I also wonder if

3329
02:46:45,520 --> 02:46:48,680
Speaker 19: you could say a thing specifically about this sort of

3330
02:46:48,920 --> 02:46:53,200
Speaker 19: framing that is being given again, that is, like, like

3331
02:46:53,320 --> 02:46:57,680
Speaker 19: I was thinking about this before more recent mass shooting

3332
02:46:57,720 --> 02:47:02,320
Speaker 19: events that have happened, or before the hullabaloo around Charlie

3333
02:47:02,360 --> 02:47:06,720
Speaker 19: Kirk's assassination and the shooter, the alleged shooter's relationships to

3334
02:47:06,760 --> 02:47:10,000
Speaker 19: other people, that there seems to be this considered effort

3335
02:47:10,440 --> 02:47:16,440
Speaker 19: around clinically framing and politically flaming, framing transness as a

3336
02:47:16,480 --> 02:47:20,879
Speaker 19: mental health issue but also as a political extension of

3337
02:47:20,959 --> 02:47:25,560
Speaker 19: woke gender ideology that's coming for your children. And it's like,

3338
02:47:25,600 --> 02:47:28,720
Speaker 19: it's it's interesting because like, in order for people in

3339
02:47:28,760 --> 02:47:30,880
Speaker 19: a lot of cases in the US to be able

3340
02:47:30,879 --> 02:47:35,160
Speaker 19: to gain access to medical care that they desire or

3341
02:47:35,280 --> 02:47:40,160
Speaker 19: need around maybe gender dysorio or some other experience. They

3342
02:47:40,160 --> 02:47:43,760
Speaker 19: often have to use these like clinical terms for what

3343
02:47:43,800 --> 02:47:46,400
Speaker 19: they are experiencing and why they need medication for it,

3344
02:47:47,120 --> 02:47:50,360
Speaker 19: and not faulting people for making that approach, because you

3345
02:47:50,480 --> 02:47:51,640
Speaker 19: need the medicine that you need.

3346
02:47:52,040 --> 02:47:53,119
Speaker 12: But now this is.

3347
02:47:53,080 --> 02:47:58,280
Speaker 19: Being turned around and reframed as therefore, if people need

3348
02:47:58,280 --> 02:48:00,440
Speaker 19: this stuff and they're making this argument, therefore they have

3349
02:48:00,840 --> 02:48:03,920
Speaker 19: some sort of mental deficiency or some sort of issue

3350
02:48:04,440 --> 02:48:07,360
Speaker 19: which is being used in order to challenge people's right

3351
02:48:07,480 --> 02:48:10,640
Speaker 19: to keep in bear arms under the Second Amendments, or

3352
02:48:10,760 --> 02:48:13,440
Speaker 19: saying that people are like because of their transnits being

3353
02:48:13,480 --> 02:48:15,800
Speaker 19: motivated towards this attacks like I don't know if you

3354
02:48:15,800 --> 02:48:20,120
Speaker 19: have anything to again, not exactly like not exactly a

3355
02:48:20,200 --> 02:48:22,520
Speaker 19: legal issue, but I don't know if you have any observations.

3356
02:48:22,640 --> 02:48:25,800
Speaker 10: Well, I mean, I guess when it comes down to it.

3357
02:48:25,920 --> 02:48:28,560
Speaker 10: Just to be very clear, the DSM makes it very

3358
02:48:28,560 --> 02:48:33,280
Speaker 10: clear that for that being trans is not a mental illness,

3359
02:48:33,720 --> 02:48:41,560
Speaker 10: that gender dysph you is distress caused by discrepancy between

3360
02:48:42,040 --> 02:48:46,680
Speaker 10: the assigned gender and your actual gender, which would exist

3361
02:48:47,040 --> 02:48:51,840
Speaker 10: if any CIS person were being treated as a gender

3362
02:48:51,879 --> 02:48:54,640
Speaker 10: that they didn't identify with right, that would be a

3363
02:48:54,640 --> 02:48:57,840
Speaker 10: distress that would arise for any person. I think that

3364
02:48:57,840 --> 02:49:00,720
Speaker 10: there are real problems with the sort of clinicsization or

3365
02:49:00,760 --> 02:49:05,840
Speaker 10: medicalization of gender affirming care. But I do want to

3366
02:49:05,879 --> 02:49:09,640
Speaker 10: be very clear that that does not have to and

3367
02:49:09,760 --> 02:49:16,440
Speaker 10: does not formally or officially include pathologizing trans identity. That's

3368
02:49:16,440 --> 02:49:20,080
Speaker 10: something that's being imputed and being imposed, but it has

3369
02:49:20,120 --> 02:49:25,600
Speaker 10: no basis in clinical practice. Not that that necessarily matters

3370
02:49:25,640 --> 02:49:28,360
Speaker 10: to the government, but I do think it's important to

3371
02:49:28,400 --> 02:49:32,160
Speaker 10: point that out. I think, given that previous efforts to

3372
02:49:32,440 --> 02:49:36,880
Speaker 10: restrict gun ownership on the basis of previously diagnosed mental

3373
02:49:36,920 --> 02:49:40,760
Speaker 10: illness have not been super successful, I don't know that

3374
02:49:40,840 --> 02:49:43,520
Speaker 10: this one will be either. But again, this is an

3375
02:49:43,520 --> 02:49:47,040
Speaker 10: issue of power and less an issue of law or

3376
02:49:47,520 --> 02:49:50,640
Speaker 10: logical coherent legal philosophy.

3377
02:49:51,080 --> 02:49:53,360
Speaker 19: So this term has been coming up a lot of

3378
02:49:54,120 --> 02:49:58,599
Speaker 19: you know, with Trump or the administration talking about domestic terrorists,

3379
02:49:58,959 --> 02:50:00,760
Speaker 19: there's been a lot of pushback back from the legal

3380
02:50:00,760 --> 02:50:05,039
Speaker 19: community or from civil libertarians saying, what the hell are

3381
02:50:05,040 --> 02:50:07,480
Speaker 19: you talking about? Can you talk about, like what it

3382
02:50:07,520 --> 02:50:12,000
Speaker 19: means to be called domestic terrorists? What changes that makes

3383
02:50:12,040 --> 02:50:13,800
Speaker 19: in like how the law approaches he or how you

3384
02:50:13,800 --> 02:50:14,920
Speaker 19: can be convicted.

3385
02:50:14,800 --> 02:50:18,640
Speaker 10: Yeah, gladly. So at this point, what it means to

3386
02:50:18,680 --> 02:50:22,160
Speaker 10: be called a domestic terrorist is actually nothing. There is

3387
02:50:22,280 --> 02:50:27,920
Speaker 10: no legal procedure for designating a domestic terrorist group or

3388
02:50:27,920 --> 02:50:32,640
Speaker 10: for designating a domestic group a terrorist organization. And given

3389
02:50:32,680 --> 02:50:35,600
Speaker 10: the current law on the matter, even with this Supreme Court,

3390
02:50:35,640 --> 02:50:38,720
Speaker 10: I think it would be very, very difficult to change

3391
02:50:38,760 --> 02:50:40,400
Speaker 10: the law in the way it would have to be

3392
02:50:40,480 --> 02:50:44,959
Speaker 10: changed in order to make that designation. There are ways

3393
02:50:45,280 --> 02:50:50,039
Speaker 10: to freeze the assets of a domestic group. There are

3394
02:50:50,160 --> 02:50:55,600
Speaker 10: ways to posit or show a connection between a domestic

3395
02:50:55,640 --> 02:50:59,720
Speaker 10: group and a designated foreign terrorist organization, which is a

3396
02:50:59,760 --> 02:51:03,280
Speaker 10: real thing that has legal effect. There is a way

3397
02:51:03,600 --> 02:51:09,760
Speaker 10: to financially designate a group or an individual, as you know,

3398
02:51:10,280 --> 02:51:14,359
Speaker 10: having this kind of relationship to a foreign terrorist organization

3399
02:51:14,480 --> 02:51:15,199
Speaker 10: or an FTO.

3400
02:51:15,720 --> 02:51:18,879
Speaker 5: So, but there's no legal.

3401
02:51:18,560 --> 02:51:23,640
Speaker 10: Mechanism for designating a domestic terrorist group. That's not a thing.

3402
02:51:24,080 --> 02:51:26,360
Speaker 10: So this is a place where the government could simply

3403
02:51:26,400 --> 02:51:29,040
Speaker 10: dispense with the law. But I do not think this

3404
02:51:29,120 --> 02:51:31,720
Speaker 10: is a place where the government can use the law

3405
02:51:32,440 --> 02:51:38,200
Speaker 10: to create a category of domestic terrorist organizations. And just

3406
02:51:38,240 --> 02:51:42,240
Speaker 10: to like explain FTOS a little bit, there is a

3407
02:51:42,400 --> 02:51:47,800
Speaker 10: category of organization that are designated by the State Department

3408
02:51:48,520 --> 02:51:52,840
Speaker 10: as quote, foreign terrorist organizations ftos are designated by the

3409
02:51:52,879 --> 02:51:56,720
Speaker 10: State Department, and they are listed on the State Department website. Right,

3410
02:51:56,840 --> 02:51:58,760
Speaker 10: it's not a secret who they are. You're not going

3411
02:51:58,840 --> 02:52:01,120
Speaker 10: to suddenly find out that, you know, you gain money

3412
02:52:01,120 --> 02:52:05,720
Speaker 10: that to I don't know the Greek equivalent of the ACLU,

3413
02:52:05,800 --> 02:52:08,320
Speaker 10: and now it's you know, it turns out it's an FTO.

3414
02:52:08,959 --> 02:52:13,800
Speaker 10: There are certainly cases where the government has successfully claimed

3415
02:52:14,600 --> 02:52:20,720
Speaker 10: that a connection between a domestic group and an FDO exists,

3416
02:52:21,320 --> 02:52:24,640
Speaker 10: even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

3417
02:52:24,879 --> 02:52:27,879
Speaker 10: And if you have a connection to an FDO, you

3418
02:52:28,000 --> 02:52:32,160
Speaker 10: can be prosecuted for what's called material support for terrorism.

3419
02:52:32,640 --> 02:52:35,640
Speaker 10: And it's a very serious charge. It's a very frightening charge,

3420
02:52:35,959 --> 02:52:38,760
Speaker 10: and it does criminalize a lot of things that most

3421
02:52:38,840 --> 02:52:43,480
Speaker 10: people understand to be protected by the First Amendment right.

3422
02:52:43,959 --> 02:52:49,240
Speaker 10: It criminalizes providing things like medical care to certain groups.

3423
02:52:49,280 --> 02:52:53,199
Speaker 10: It criminalizes providing education or legal support to certain groups

3424
02:52:53,200 --> 02:52:58,520
Speaker 10: that are designated foreign terrorist organizations. And frankly, this is

3425
02:52:58,680 --> 02:53:02,920
Speaker 10: the idea that on pens material support for terrorism charges

3426
02:53:03,000 --> 02:53:05,800
Speaker 10: is offensive to many people because it does feel very

3427
02:53:05,879 --> 02:53:11,200
Speaker 10: much incompatible with constitutional norms under the First Amendment. It's

3428
02:53:11,240 --> 02:53:13,920
Speaker 10: an important thing to be aware of, but it would

3429
02:53:13,959 --> 02:53:16,520
Speaker 10: be very surprising to me if the government were able

3430
02:53:16,560 --> 02:53:23,240
Speaker 10: to successfully make broad claims connecting quote Antifa to foreign

3431
02:53:23,360 --> 02:53:24,560
Speaker 10: terrorist organizations.

3432
02:53:25,480 --> 02:53:27,120
Speaker 19: I was when you were saying that that had me

3433
02:53:27,800 --> 02:53:30,240
Speaker 19: thinking a little bit about the Holy Land five case.

3434
02:53:30,280 --> 02:53:33,800
Speaker 19: I was trying to remember that example. I guess like

3435
02:53:34,440 --> 02:53:37,400
Speaker 19: to be labor this. Can we talk about the distinction

3436
02:53:37,800 --> 02:53:42,520
Speaker 19: between domestic terrorist organization, which is a classification that doesn't exist,

3437
02:53:43,080 --> 02:53:47,720
Speaker 19: versus the charge of committing terrorism because people who get

3438
02:53:47,840 --> 02:53:53,320
Speaker 19: terrorism enhancements at least like the Marus Mason one example

3439
02:53:53,360 --> 02:53:55,360
Speaker 19: that comes to my mind, right, who is a member

3440
02:53:55,400 --> 02:53:58,760
Speaker 19: of cell that was associated with the Earth Liberation Front,

3441
02:53:59,120 --> 02:54:02,800
Speaker 19: like so that that person got over two decades in

3442
02:54:02,840 --> 02:54:06,800
Speaker 19: prison based on being convicted of crimes that existed and

3443
02:54:06,840 --> 02:54:11,480
Speaker 19: then getting enhancements based on the definition that those were terrorists,

3444
02:54:12,080 --> 02:54:13,400
Speaker 19: amplifying the amount of time.

3445
02:54:13,480 --> 02:54:13,680
Speaker 8: Right.

3446
02:54:14,120 --> 02:54:19,280
Speaker 10: The difference is the difference between criminalizing conduct or defining

3447
02:54:19,440 --> 02:54:25,440
Speaker 10: conduct as being terroristic, and criminalizing a group. The First

3448
02:54:25,440 --> 02:54:32,320
Speaker 10: Amendment protects freedom of belief, association, and expression, and that

3449
02:54:32,440 --> 02:54:38,720
Speaker 10: means that however much we might be targeted for our beliefs, associations,

3450
02:54:38,760 --> 02:54:44,480
Speaker 10: and expression. We cannot be prosecuted criminally for anything besides

3451
02:54:44,640 --> 02:54:49,800
Speaker 10: our conduct, our actions, And so there can be terrorist

3452
02:54:49,959 --> 02:54:56,880
Speaker 10: offenses and enhancements for sentencing on the basis of conduct

3453
02:54:57,000 --> 02:54:59,880
Speaker 10: that you are convicted of. If you engage in se

3454
02:55:00,360 --> 02:55:04,400
Speaker 10: illegal acts and a judge determines that those acts were

3455
02:55:04,480 --> 02:55:10,680
Speaker 10: motivated by desire to do terrorism, that the penalty for

3456
02:55:10,840 --> 02:55:15,359
Speaker 10: engaging in those acts can be enhanced. But you cannot

3457
02:55:15,600 --> 02:55:21,320
Speaker 10: designate a group, a belief, or an expression as being

3458
02:55:21,560 --> 02:55:26,560
Speaker 10: a crime in itself unless there is conduct associated with it.

3459
02:55:26,680 --> 02:55:31,320
Speaker 10: Because we don't criminalize people's identities. I mean, we do

3460
02:55:31,360 --> 02:55:36,280
Speaker 10: criminalize people's identities, but it's we don't say the impermissible

3461
02:55:36,480 --> 02:55:39,840
Speaker 10: to prosecute people for having those identities.

3462
02:55:40,959 --> 02:55:43,520
Speaker 19: I guess I have note as I understand the terrorism

3463
02:55:43,640 --> 02:55:47,200
Speaker 19: enhancements that the prosecutors are pursuing in the Luis gim

3464
02:55:47,200 --> 02:55:51,360
Speaker 19: Angioni case have been dropped. Is a thing that I heard, yes,

3465
02:55:52,320 --> 02:55:55,400
Speaker 19: which I mean at the same time, this is referenced

3466
02:55:55,440 --> 02:55:57,480
Speaker 19: in one of those documents that came from the White

3467
02:55:57,480 --> 02:55:59,240
Speaker 19: House as being a terroristic act.

3468
02:55:59,440 --> 02:56:00,840
Speaker 13: So yes, what are.

3469
02:56:00,760 --> 02:56:01,280
Speaker 12: The courts know?

3470
02:56:01,760 --> 02:56:04,800
Speaker 7: Okay, thank you? For making that distinction more clear.

3471
02:56:05,080 --> 02:56:08,320
Speaker 19: All right, So, how might those of us on the

3472
02:56:08,440 --> 02:56:12,280
Speaker 19: left or in justice movements, as you stated it, conceive

3473
02:56:12,560 --> 02:56:15,520
Speaker 19: of the state's view of us. How do we rally

3474
02:56:15,560 --> 02:56:19,200
Speaker 19: support for our identities and positions? What are some good

3475
02:56:19,360 --> 02:56:24,840
Speaker 19: practices understanding, like, having had this conversation, the terrain on

3476
02:56:24,879 --> 02:56:26,320
Speaker 19: which we're operating.

3477
02:56:26,280 --> 02:56:29,120
Speaker 10: Absolutely so, I guess what I would say about best

3478
02:56:29,160 --> 02:56:33,440
Speaker 10: practices is understand whether you are at risk, even if

3479
02:56:33,480 --> 02:56:38,200
Speaker 10: you're somebody who has not traditionally been at risk, even

3480
02:56:38,240 --> 02:56:41,800
Speaker 10: if you're someone who has lived your whole life believing

3481
02:56:41,840 --> 02:56:45,480
Speaker 10: that the system works and that this particular administration is

3482
02:56:45,560 --> 02:56:49,480
Speaker 10: like an aberration. I would say, Look, this administration is

3483
02:56:49,520 --> 02:56:54,039
Speaker 10: preoccupied with the funding streams for very mainstream liberal causes,

3484
02:56:54,080 --> 02:56:56,320
Speaker 10: and the fact that it's sort of lumping everything under

3485
02:56:56,320 --> 02:56:59,560
Speaker 10: the banner of antifa, you know, is probably a big

3486
02:56:59,600 --> 02:57:02,680
Speaker 10: surprise for some of these groups, like you know, suburban

3487
02:57:02,720 --> 02:57:06,360
Speaker 10: white moms against guns or whatever. But they are very

3488
02:57:06,400 --> 02:57:10,000
Speaker 10: focused on things like wirefraud and money laundering and stripping

3489
02:57:10,040 --> 02:57:14,680
Speaker 10: nonprofits of their tax status. If there's even a whisper

3490
02:57:14,840 --> 02:57:19,320
Speaker 10: of the possibility that those nonprofits are pursuing goals that

3491
02:57:19,360 --> 02:57:23,240
Speaker 10: are in any way antagonistic to state interests. So if

3492
02:57:23,320 --> 02:57:25,880
Speaker 10: you are in a group that has a bank account

3493
02:57:26,160 --> 02:57:30,000
Speaker 10: or raises money, the best practices here haven't changed. Keep

3494
02:57:30,440 --> 02:57:34,120
Speaker 10: very precise track of your funds. If you raise money,

3495
02:57:34,400 --> 02:57:35,760
Speaker 10: use it for that theyk you said you were going

3496
02:57:35,840 --> 02:57:38,600
Speaker 10: to use it for. Have an accountant, you know, be

3497
02:57:38,800 --> 02:57:42,560
Speaker 10: very very careful about your money. And again the best

3498
02:57:42,560 --> 02:57:45,520
Speaker 10: practices for the rest of us also haven't changed. This

3499
02:57:45,680 --> 02:57:49,080
Speaker 10: is political discourse that reaffirms what we already know about

3500
02:57:49,120 --> 02:57:53,959
Speaker 10: targeted surveillance, and we have for a long time known

3501
02:57:54,000 --> 02:57:56,240
Speaker 10: how to deal with this. If you are approached by

3502
02:57:56,280 --> 02:58:00,520
Speaker 10: law enforcement, remember that the Fifth Amendment protect you're right

3503
02:58:00,720 --> 02:58:03,400
Speaker 10: not to speak to them. You have no obligation to

3504
02:58:03,400 --> 02:58:06,360
Speaker 10: speak to law enforcement. It is a crime to light

3505
02:58:06,400 --> 02:58:09,600
Speaker 10: of federal agents, and that means that it is safest

3506
02:58:10,160 --> 02:58:14,119
Speaker 10: not to say anything. Besides, I'm represented by counsel. Please

3507
02:58:14,200 --> 02:58:16,680
Speaker 10: leave your name a number, and my lawyer will call you.

3508
02:58:16,920 --> 02:58:20,640
Speaker 10: There is truly never a compelling reason to speak to

3509
02:58:20,720 --> 02:58:26,000
Speaker 10: federal agents before consulting with an attorney. The Energy Anti

3510
02:58:26,040 --> 02:58:29,520
Speaker 10: Repression Hotline can be reached at two one two six

3511
02:58:29,600 --> 02:58:32,200
Speaker 10: seven nine two eight one one. You can call to

3512
02:58:32,240 --> 02:58:36,879
Speaker 10: have a free privileged conversation about your rights, risks and responsibilities,

3513
02:58:37,400 --> 02:58:40,840
Speaker 10: and to be connected with appropriate legal resources in your area.

3514
02:58:41,280 --> 02:58:43,560
Speaker 10: And at the end of the day, we keep ourselves

3515
02:58:43,600 --> 02:58:47,400
Speaker 10: safe by refusing to submit to this fear, refusing to

3516
02:58:47,440 --> 02:58:52,199
Speaker 10: comply in advance, refusing to second guess whether we actually

3517
02:58:52,280 --> 02:58:57,040
Speaker 10: have rights, and more importantly, we persist by being confident

3518
02:58:57,080 --> 02:58:59,800
Speaker 10: in the fact that, no matter what, our communities are

3519
02:58:59,800 --> 02:59:01,920
Speaker 10: going to rally around and care for each other.

3520
02:59:02,160 --> 02:59:04,040
Speaker 19: I think that would be a great place to tie up.

3521
02:59:04,480 --> 02:59:07,120
Speaker 19: Thank you so much for having this conversation and for

3522
02:59:07,200 --> 02:59:09,000
Speaker 19: the insights that you've shared, and for the work that

3523
02:59:09,040 --> 02:59:09,360
Speaker 19: you do.

3524
02:59:09,520 --> 02:59:11,920
Speaker 10: Mo. You're very welcome. It's always a pleasure.

3525
02:59:31,440 --> 02:59:34,000
Speaker 17: Happy g October everybody.

3526
02:59:33,480 --> 02:59:35,160
Speaker 13: Oh, shut the fuck up, we can't.

3527
02:59:35,360 --> 02:59:36,520
Speaker 12: This is that could happen here?

3528
02:59:36,600 --> 02:59:39,920
Speaker 17: Executive Disorder our weekly newscast covering what's happening in the

3529
02:59:39,920 --> 02:59:42,160
Speaker 17: White House, the crumbling world, and what it means for you.

3530
02:59:42,560 --> 02:59:46,680
Speaker 17: I'm garouson Davis Today, joint by me along Jamestown and

3531
02:59:46,920 --> 02:59:49,880
Speaker 17: Robert Evans. This episode recovering the week of September twenty

3532
02:59:49,920 --> 02:59:54,080
Speaker 17: first to October first, and what a week it was. Yeah,

3533
02:59:54,120 --> 02:59:55,760
Speaker 17: it does not feel like it should be October but

3534
02:59:55,920 --> 02:59:59,720
Speaker 17: who cares. I guess the government's shut down right now,

3535
03:00:00,200 --> 03:00:03,119
Speaker 17: So all of the dozens of anarchists around the country

3536
03:00:03,160 --> 03:00:06,080
Speaker 17: are rejoicing, uh huh, as the Senate has failed to

3537
03:00:06,160 --> 03:00:08,120
Speaker 17: pass a short term funding bill.

3538
03:00:08,320 --> 03:00:11,080
Speaker 1: That's right, everyone, we did it. We defeated the state

3539
03:00:11,280 --> 03:00:13,320
Speaker 1: using the power of the state.

3540
03:00:13,400 --> 03:00:13,680
Speaker 5: State.

3541
03:00:14,120 --> 03:00:17,920
Speaker 17: Yeah. In many such cases, as the government shut down,

3542
03:00:17,959 --> 03:00:22,240
Speaker 17: Trump is threatening mass layoffs, and Republicans are framing this

3543
03:00:22,320 --> 03:00:25,600
Speaker 17: whole shut down as being caused by Democrats who are

3544
03:00:25,600 --> 03:00:31,200
Speaker 17: trying to defend healthcare for quote unquote illegals, which isn't real.

3545
03:00:31,560 --> 03:00:35,400
Speaker 17: Undocumented immigrants do not get federal health care. That's not

3546
03:00:35,480 --> 03:00:37,640
Speaker 17: even what the Democrats are fighting for. Would be cool

3547
03:00:37,680 --> 03:00:39,240
Speaker 17: if they were, would be cool if the theory of

3548
03:00:39,280 --> 03:00:41,480
Speaker 17: this country you could just get health care, that sounds nice.

3549
03:00:41,480 --> 03:00:43,800
Speaker 17: Wouldn't that be a cool, almost utopian place to live.

3550
03:00:44,200 --> 03:00:47,720
Speaker 17: But that's not what's happening. And the rights confronted with this,

3551
03:00:47,920 --> 03:00:50,760
Speaker 17: but they just do not care. Here's a Mike Johnson,

3552
03:00:50,840 --> 03:00:53,720
Speaker 17: Speaker of the House, on CNN, having a little debate

3553
03:00:53,840 --> 03:00:54,200
Speaker 17: about this.

3554
03:00:54,840 --> 03:00:58,360
Speaker 21: If that counterproposal was enacted, is illegal aliens would be

3555
03:00:58,440 --> 03:01:01,800
Speaker 21: paid for American taxpayers hard earned dollars would be paying

3556
03:01:01,879 --> 03:01:03,360
Speaker 21: for benefits for illegal aliens.

3557
03:01:03,400 --> 03:01:04,800
Speaker 1: Again, we're not doing that, but it's.

3558
03:01:04,680 --> 03:01:07,119
Speaker 5: Against federal law for people who are here illegally.

3559
03:01:06,959 --> 03:01:07,680
Speaker 8: To get yes.

3560
03:01:07,800 --> 03:01:10,080
Speaker 21: And that's why our reforms are so important to enforce

3561
03:01:10,120 --> 03:01:12,320
Speaker 21: all that. What the important thing to remember is what's.

3562
03:01:12,120 --> 03:01:14,920
Speaker 10: Happened the Democratic proposal that people who are here illegally.

3563
03:01:14,800 --> 03:01:16,880
Speaker 21: Again, because they don't have the level of specification that

3564
03:01:16,959 --> 03:01:18,960
Speaker 21: we had in our bill, it will unwind that and

3565
03:01:19,080 --> 03:01:22,000
Speaker 21: all those things that the CBO just verified will be reversed.

3566
03:01:22,040 --> 03:01:22,880
Speaker 3: We can't afford to do that.

3567
03:01:23,920 --> 03:01:26,800
Speaker 21: But that you're making right, No, that is a red

3568
03:01:26,879 --> 03:01:28,120
Speaker 21: herring in this in this debate.

3569
03:01:28,640 --> 03:01:31,240
Speaker 17: So what the Democrats are actually doing right now is

3570
03:01:31,280 --> 03:01:36,080
Speaker 17: they're trying to extend the current currently enacted federal subsidies

3571
03:01:36,120 --> 03:01:38,680
Speaker 17: for the Affordable Care Act, which keeps millions of people

3572
03:01:39,360 --> 03:01:43,040
Speaker 17: able to access healthcare. And Democrats are also trying to

3573
03:01:43,120 --> 03:01:46,439
Speaker 17: reverse some of the federal health care cuts, including to Medicaid,

3574
03:01:47,000 --> 03:01:50,760
Speaker 17: which happened under the One Big, Beautiful Bill earlier this year.

3575
03:01:51,160 --> 03:01:54,720
Speaker 17: That is what they are actually fighting for. The White

3576
03:01:54,760 --> 03:01:58,920
Speaker 17: House is retruthing and retweeting proposals from the Democrats that

3577
03:01:59,280 --> 03:02:03,520
Speaker 17: include a health care for aliens. But that's legal aliens,

3578
03:02:03,600 --> 03:02:07,400
Speaker 17: that's like legal documented residents, And they're framing this as

3579
03:02:07,520 --> 03:02:09,760
Speaker 17: health care for quote unquote illegals.

3580
03:02:10,640 --> 03:02:12,960
Speaker 13: It's a bad faith representation, as it always is. Like

3581
03:02:13,080 --> 03:02:15,720
Speaker 13: people can go all the way back to the episode

3582
03:02:15,760 --> 03:02:17,840
Speaker 13: that I made with Robert Sophie last year about what

3583
03:02:18,000 --> 03:02:21,440
Speaker 13: Trump might do to learn more about the public charge

3584
03:02:21,520 --> 03:02:24,000
Speaker 13: rule and how that pertains to people who are not

3585
03:02:24,160 --> 03:02:26,320
Speaker 13: US citizens. I don't think we really have the time

3586
03:02:26,360 --> 03:02:29,120
Speaker 13: noise as the place to go over that here. But

3587
03:02:29,240 --> 03:02:31,800
Speaker 13: there is not, and there has never been a massive

3588
03:02:31,920 --> 03:02:35,640
Speaker 13: federal free health care plan for undocumented people. In fact,

3589
03:02:35,840 --> 03:02:39,760
Speaker 13: people who are undocumented are not going to see the

3590
03:02:39,840 --> 03:02:43,960
Speaker 13: doctor right now because of the persistent and untrue rumor

3591
03:02:44,240 --> 03:02:47,320
Speaker 13: that ICE are taking people from hospitals. That is not

3592
03:02:47,480 --> 03:02:50,600
Speaker 13: something I'm aware of ever happening. ICE do take people

3593
03:02:50,600 --> 03:02:53,680
Speaker 13: who are already in their custody to hospitals, and they

3594
03:02:53,720 --> 03:02:56,720
Speaker 13: will wait for those people while those people are treated.

3595
03:02:56,800 --> 03:02:59,360
Speaker 13: That it's not the same as entering the hospital and

3596
03:02:59,440 --> 03:03:02,560
Speaker 13: grabbing peace people based on the immigration status. And I'm

3597
03:03:02,600 --> 03:03:06,160
Speaker 13: aware of several cases where people whose life was genuinely

3598
03:03:06,240 --> 03:03:09,680
Speaker 13: in danger were afraid to go and seek medical attention.

3599
03:03:09,879 --> 03:03:12,040
Speaker 13: Because they were afraid that they would be targeted for

3600
03:03:12,120 --> 03:03:13,240
Speaker 13: their immigration status.

3601
03:03:13,800 --> 03:03:16,120
Speaker 17: So we'll see how long this government shut down last.

3602
03:03:16,240 --> 03:03:19,320
Speaker 17: The last one started on twenty eighteen, lasted thirty five days.

3603
03:03:20,320 --> 03:03:22,240
Speaker 17: If this shutdown is still happening next week, I'm sure

3604
03:03:22,240 --> 03:03:25,520
Speaker 17: we will include some details about government services being affected.

3605
03:03:25,600 --> 03:03:28,039
Speaker 17: But this could resolve in a few days, a few hours,

3606
03:03:28,200 --> 03:03:29,360
Speaker 17: or in a few weeks.

3607
03:03:29,440 --> 03:03:30,240
Speaker 7: We do not know.

3608
03:03:31,160 --> 03:03:34,840
Speaker 17: But luckily, not all is depressing and dark in this country.

3609
03:03:34,879 --> 03:03:36,600
Speaker 17: There still is a ray of hope. And that ray

3610
03:03:36,640 --> 03:03:39,600
Speaker 17: of hope is named Jimmy Kimball, who was thankfully back

3611
03:03:39,680 --> 03:03:41,840
Speaker 17: on the air. I know we've all been watching. We've

3612
03:03:41,879 --> 03:03:45,520
Speaker 17: all been watching this certainly, and next our En Sinclair

3613
03:03:45,640 --> 03:03:48,720
Speaker 17: have ceased preempting his show. That's back on air across

3614
03:03:48,800 --> 03:03:53,520
Speaker 17: the country. Free speech is hashtag. So back in America, provert,

3615
03:03:53,560 --> 03:03:55,800
Speaker 17: Do you want to talk about the Disney plus Voika?

3616
03:03:56,400 --> 03:04:00,920
Speaker 1: Yes, So we've gotten some data finally on the damaged

3617
03:04:00,959 --> 03:04:04,599
Speaker 1: on to Disney's result of the boycott. After they fired Monsieur.

3618
03:04:04,280 --> 03:04:07,039
Speaker 12: Kimmel suspended, suspended, Monsieur kim.

3619
03:04:06,959 --> 03:04:10,600
Speaker 1: Il suspended, suspended, they were definitely going to fire They

3620
03:04:10,640 --> 03:04:13,160
Speaker 1: wanted to fire his They definitely wanted to fire him,

3621
03:04:13,520 --> 03:04:15,880
Speaker 1: and you know, there was a lot of posting online

3622
03:04:16,160 --> 03:04:18,160
Speaker 1: about there was a lot of posting, a lot of

3623
03:04:18,240 --> 03:04:21,840
Speaker 1: posting about people canceling their accounts and people being like wow,

3624
03:04:22,240 --> 03:04:24,560
Speaker 1: and it's I always it's always very frustrated to me

3625
03:04:24,600 --> 03:04:27,680
Speaker 1: because like people get very excited and it's impossible to

3626
03:04:27,760 --> 03:04:29,520
Speaker 1: tell with the moment, is this actually anything?

3627
03:04:29,680 --> 03:04:29,800
Speaker 7: Right?

3628
03:04:29,920 --> 03:04:30,080
Speaker 5: Yees?

3629
03:04:30,120 --> 03:04:33,760
Speaker 1: Sixteen thousand people shared this thing about how the website

3630
03:04:33,840 --> 03:04:38,320
Speaker 1: for Disney was down, but that doesn't mean anything other

3631
03:04:38,440 --> 03:04:40,560
Speaker 1: than like someone saw the website down and a bunch

3632
03:04:40,560 --> 03:04:42,440
Speaker 1: of people shared and posted it. So it was very

3633
03:04:42,480 --> 03:04:46,160
Speaker 1: difficult to tell, like, is there actually any follow through

3634
03:04:46,240 --> 03:04:49,720
Speaker 1: on this is Disney's bottom line being hurt? And thankfully,

3635
03:04:49,760 --> 03:04:51,560
Speaker 1: I'm very happy to say that it does look like

3636
03:04:51,640 --> 03:04:57,000
Speaker 1: Disney suffered a substantial financial setback as a result of

3637
03:04:57,080 --> 03:05:00,640
Speaker 1: the boycott campaign. Something like one point seven million paid

3638
03:05:00,720 --> 03:05:04,360
Speaker 1: subscribers canceled, and this was immediately before Disney was looking

3639
03:05:04,400 --> 03:05:07,640
Speaker 1: to announce a price increase, So like, this is this

3640
03:05:07,840 --> 03:05:11,600
Speaker 1: is like a serious I'm not surprised they reversed. Course,

3641
03:05:11,720 --> 03:05:13,800
Speaker 1: this is like damaging to them. We're not talking about

3642
03:05:13,800 --> 03:05:15,600
Speaker 1: the amount of money that a company like Disney would

3643
03:05:15,640 --> 03:05:16,080
Speaker 1: just ignore.

3644
03:05:16,400 --> 03:05:19,360
Speaker 12: Yeah, And I think the most important thing here for

3645
03:05:19,480 --> 03:05:21,160
Speaker 12: all of us, and this is the thing I talked about.

3646
03:05:21,200 --> 03:05:23,080
Speaker 12: We did an episode about this. This is actually before

3647
03:05:24,560 --> 03:05:28,920
Speaker 12: kim Old I've reinstated by Sinclair. But one of the

3648
03:05:29,000 --> 03:05:33,200
Speaker 12: really important things here is that everyone fucking hates this government.

3649
03:05:33,840 --> 03:05:36,959
Speaker 12: They are hideously unpopular. All of the all of their

3650
03:05:37,040 --> 03:05:41,000
Speaker 12: sort of legitimization stuff, all of the sort of media

3651
03:05:41,080 --> 03:05:44,440
Speaker 12: complicity they've bought has bought them about four percent of

3652
03:05:44,480 --> 03:05:46,200
Speaker 12: proof of rating bump from where they were this time

3653
03:05:46,240 --> 03:05:48,039
Speaker 12: of the administration the first time, so he said about

3654
03:05:48,160 --> 03:05:50,920
Speaker 12: forty one percent of poof of rating. Everything that he's

3655
03:05:51,000 --> 03:05:54,480
Speaker 12: doing is hideously underwater. Like his most popular thing is

3656
03:05:54,520 --> 03:05:56,520
Speaker 12: is immigration policy, which is horrible, but it's again like

3657
03:05:56,640 --> 03:05:59,520
Speaker 12: forty two percent. Everyone hates these people, yeah, you know.

3658
03:05:59,680 --> 03:06:01,520
Speaker 12: And it's it's very easy, because of their controlled and

3659
03:06:01,560 --> 03:06:03,920
Speaker 12: media spear, to believe that they have this sort of

3660
03:06:04,000 --> 03:06:08,280
Speaker 12: total hegemonic power over everyone in the US until the

3661
03:06:08,400 --> 03:06:10,720
Speaker 12: exact moment where it gets challenged and everyone's like, wait,

3662
03:06:10,760 --> 03:06:12,360
Speaker 12: hold on, no, it turns out most of the country

3663
03:06:12,640 --> 03:06:17,119
Speaker 12: hates this. Does not what Jimmy Kimmel acts from Disney.

3664
03:06:17,640 --> 03:06:20,200
Speaker 17: Like comrade Kimmel has joined the fight.

3665
03:06:20,640 --> 03:06:20,840
Speaker 5: Yeah.

3666
03:06:21,040 --> 03:06:22,879
Speaker 12: Yeah, there are more of us than there are of them,

3667
03:06:22,920 --> 03:06:24,160
Speaker 12: and there always have been, and.

3668
03:06:24,240 --> 03:06:26,400
Speaker 17: By more of us, Mia is referring to herself and

3669
03:06:26,480 --> 03:06:28,440
Speaker 17: Jimmy Kimmel as a coherent political class.

3670
03:06:28,680 --> 03:06:30,080
Speaker 12: Just for the record, there no.

3671
03:06:30,959 --> 03:06:33,360
Speaker 1: The only two members of the coherent political class.

3672
03:06:35,360 --> 03:06:36,320
Speaker 5: But that's good news.

3673
03:06:36,480 --> 03:06:42,120
Speaker 12: Just the state which holds me up to Kimmel and.

3674
03:06:43,640 --> 03:06:46,400
Speaker 1: Entirety of the fourth Estate. But I don't know, there's

3675
03:06:46,400 --> 03:06:48,080
Speaker 1: a little bit of good news for you. A bunch

3676
03:06:48,080 --> 03:06:51,720
Speaker 1: of people got really pissed at something blatantly anti First Amendment,

3677
03:06:51,800 --> 03:06:56,400
Speaker 1: anti democratic, massive overreach of the state, thought crime, nonsense,

3678
03:06:57,040 --> 03:07:01,080
Speaker 1: and the company suffered such dramatic within like literally in

3679
03:07:01,160 --> 03:07:03,160
Speaker 1: the space of a week. That's three hundred and thirty

3680
03:07:03,200 --> 03:07:06,039
Speaker 1: million or so million dollars a year that Disney lost

3681
03:07:06,400 --> 03:07:09,080
Speaker 1: that even Disney can't ignore that kind of money.

3682
03:07:09,360 --> 03:07:10,560
Speaker 12: Oh looks like regular people.

3683
03:07:10,879 --> 03:07:13,680
Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, like people who subscribe to Disney bluss.

3684
03:07:14,000 --> 03:07:17,520
Speaker 17: Yeah, an army of ordinary liberals, the actual like silent

3685
03:07:17,640 --> 03:07:20,680
Speaker 17: majority in this country. Yeah said no Disney, Like.

3686
03:07:20,760 --> 03:07:23,960
Speaker 1: Well, that's gross and scary. I'm not paying Disney anymore. Yeah,

3687
03:07:23,959 --> 03:07:25,240
Speaker 1: and it's good that they did that.

3688
03:07:25,640 --> 03:07:29,560
Speaker 17: Currently, the rights trying to manufacture a counter boycott against

3689
03:07:29,640 --> 03:07:33,920
Speaker 17: Netflix for having children's shows with non binary characters, mostly

3690
03:07:34,080 --> 03:07:36,840
Speaker 17: using clips the children's shows that are like two or

3691
03:07:36,920 --> 03:07:39,120
Speaker 17: three years old, clips that Limbs of Talk Talk has

3692
03:07:39,120 --> 03:07:42,120
Speaker 17: already posted years ago. Now try to write check and

3693
03:07:42,160 --> 03:07:44,760
Speaker 17: others are recirculating these clips to be like, yeah, look

3694
03:07:44,800 --> 03:07:47,320
Speaker 17: a look at how Netflix has gone too far as

3695
03:07:47,360 --> 03:07:51,040
Speaker 17: pushing woke nonsense down the throats of your children by

3696
03:07:51,160 --> 03:07:54,119
Speaker 17: using like ancient clips from like the Jurassic Park TV

3697
03:07:54,240 --> 03:07:55,920
Speaker 17: show Like okay, guys, good luck with that.

3698
03:07:56,080 --> 03:07:56,440
Speaker 7: Have fun.

3699
03:07:56,800 --> 03:07:57,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

3700
03:07:58,000 --> 03:08:03,320
Speaker 17: In other news, the Department of War. This actually happened

3701
03:08:03,560 --> 03:08:06,520
Speaker 17: last month. On September fifth, Trump signed an executive order

3702
03:08:06,840 --> 03:08:10,760
Speaker 17: approving the name the Department of War as a secondary

3703
03:08:10,800 --> 03:08:14,400
Speaker 17: title for the Department of Defense to use an official correspondence,

3704
03:08:14,440 --> 03:08:19,400
Speaker 17: public communications, ceremonial contexts, and non statutory documents within the

3705
03:08:19,520 --> 03:08:23,440
Speaker 17: Executive Branch, while the administration also works on changing the

3706
03:08:23,560 --> 03:08:28,160
Speaker 17: name officially through Congress. Hag Seth nearly immediately switched all

3707
03:08:28,240 --> 03:08:30,920
Speaker 17: of his accounts and his office name plate to read

3708
03:08:31,320 --> 03:08:32,640
Speaker 17: Secretary of War.

3709
03:08:32,879 --> 03:08:35,200
Speaker 13: Yeah, you know, he pushed hard for this one.

3710
03:08:36,240 --> 03:08:41,600
Speaker 17: Defense dot gov now redirects to War dot gov and

3711
03:08:41,680 --> 03:08:44,360
Speaker 17: they're just referring to this in all public appearances as

3712
03:08:44,520 --> 03:08:47,800
Speaker 17: the War Department, something that we've talked about on the

3713
03:08:47,840 --> 03:08:49,360
Speaker 17: show before of them wanting to do and they're going

3714
03:08:49,400 --> 03:08:52,360
Speaker 17: to continue to push this and using this kind of

3715
03:08:52,440 --> 03:08:54,640
Speaker 17: war framing for domestic operations.

3716
03:08:54,920 --> 03:08:57,279
Speaker 12: Yeah, not just international deployments.

3717
03:08:58,280 --> 03:09:01,560
Speaker 13: This was its historical name right like way way before

3718
03:09:01,600 --> 03:09:04,200
Speaker 13: it was a DoD Yeah. Yeah, it was, so just

3719
03:09:04,280 --> 03:09:06,520
Speaker 13: to be clear for people, that doesn't mean that it's

3720
03:09:06,680 --> 03:09:08,920
Speaker 13: like a good reason to change it back.

3721
03:09:09,480 --> 03:09:14,760
Speaker 17: Trump truthed last week quote at the request of the

3722
03:09:14,760 --> 03:09:17,879
Speaker 17: Secretary of Homeland Security, Christ you know, I'm directing Secretary

3723
03:09:18,000 --> 03:09:21,560
Speaker 17: of War Pete Hagsath to provide all necessary troops to

3724
03:09:21,680 --> 03:09:26,439
Speaker 17: protect war ravaged Portland and any of our ice facilities

3725
03:09:26,560 --> 03:09:30,400
Speaker 17: under siege from attack by Antifa and other domestic terrorists.

3726
03:09:30,400 --> 03:09:33,960
Speaker 17: I'm also authorizing full force if necessary. Thank you for

3727
03:09:34,040 --> 03:09:38,640
Speaker 17: your attention in this matter. War ravaged Portland. How's it

3728
03:09:38,720 --> 03:09:41,560
Speaker 17: hanging out there for our Portland correspondence.

3729
03:09:40,959 --> 03:09:43,360
Speaker 1: It's fine. It's kind of rainy. I had a nice

3730
03:09:43,360 --> 03:09:45,440
Speaker 1: tapas dinner on Sunday. It was pretty good.

3731
03:09:45,879 --> 03:09:47,000
Speaker 12: The crows are really nice.

3732
03:09:47,360 --> 03:09:48,840
Speaker 17: What it does, does someone want to mention, like the

3733
03:09:49,000 --> 03:09:51,800
Speaker 17: nature of the anti ICE protests happening in like one

3734
03:09:51,959 --> 03:09:55,640
Speaker 17: square block in like the south water front of downtown Portland.

3735
03:09:55,879 --> 03:09:58,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's in the South water front McAdam is what

3736
03:09:59,000 --> 03:10:02,600
Speaker 1: people here call it, the neighborhood where the ICE auxiliary

3737
03:10:02,720 --> 03:10:06,280
Speaker 1: facility is. And there have been protests off and on

3738
03:10:06,520 --> 03:10:10,040
Speaker 1: pretty much since Trump took office. Usually on like a

3739
03:10:10,120 --> 03:10:12,360
Speaker 1: good night you get maybe one hundred and fifty two

3740
03:10:12,440 --> 03:10:15,039
Speaker 1: hundred people. There were some nights kind of around where

3741
03:10:15,080 --> 03:10:16,600
Speaker 1: things blew up in LA that there were more like

3742
03:10:16,680 --> 03:10:18,640
Speaker 1: five or six hundred people out for a couple of days.

3743
03:10:19,120 --> 03:10:21,600
Speaker 1: There really hasn't been any of the like what we

3744
03:10:21,680 --> 03:10:23,640
Speaker 1: were seeing in twenty twenty in terms of like the

3745
03:10:23,760 --> 03:10:27,200
Speaker 1: mass mass gatherings. And you know, there has not really

3746
03:10:27,320 --> 03:10:29,920
Speaker 1: been much in the way of like people getting arrested.

3747
03:10:30,040 --> 03:10:33,279
Speaker 1: Generally getting arrested for crossing a line that separates federal

3748
03:10:33,360 --> 03:10:36,640
Speaker 1: property from like state property so to speak, and like

3749
03:10:36,760 --> 03:10:38,560
Speaker 1: step over it and then a bunch of guys run

3750
03:10:38,600 --> 03:10:40,640
Speaker 1: out and grab them, right. That's that's mostly what the

3751
03:10:40,760 --> 03:10:44,160
Speaker 1: arrests are for a lot of people have had charges dropped.

3752
03:10:44,200 --> 03:10:46,760
Speaker 1: I mean, people get fucked up charges when they get charged,

3753
03:10:46,840 --> 03:10:49,840
Speaker 1: but a lot of them are not really sticking because

3754
03:10:49,840 --> 03:10:52,400
Speaker 1: they're not very strong, like because it's just not much

3755
03:10:52,520 --> 03:10:52,880
Speaker 1: going on.

3756
03:10:53,280 --> 03:10:56,840
Speaker 17: Right, Yeah, we'll talk more about why Trump thinks there's

3757
03:10:56,959 --> 03:11:00,280
Speaker 17: this apocalypse now scenario happening in Portland. But yeah, so

3758
03:11:00,440 --> 03:11:02,520
Speaker 17: far the protests have been relatively mild.

3759
03:11:03,080 --> 03:11:06,320
Speaker 12: Yes, Yeah, the vibe is very much like the classic

3760
03:11:06,360 --> 03:11:09,160
Speaker 12: Portland thing of people with like holding doughnuts on fishing

3761
03:11:09,240 --> 03:11:11,160
Speaker 12: lines out in front of the cops. Right, it's like that,

3762
03:11:11,640 --> 03:11:12,920
Speaker 12: not like molotovs.

3763
03:11:13,200 --> 03:11:15,480
Speaker 1: The response has been crazy, Like there's a video going

3764
03:11:15,560 --> 03:11:18,280
Speaker 1: around that's a bunch of federal agents. I think they're

3765
03:11:18,360 --> 03:11:21,880
Speaker 1: fps rolling in up from a van from outside of

3766
03:11:21,959 --> 03:11:25,279
Speaker 1: the ice facility and arresting somebody who again probably crossed

3767
03:11:25,320 --> 03:11:28,000
Speaker 1: a line or through something generally is why people have

3768
03:11:28,040 --> 03:11:30,520
Speaker 1: been getting arrested. So that the response has been nonsense.

3769
03:11:30,600 --> 03:11:32,800
Speaker 1: That that video is from recently, and I'm seeing it

3770
03:11:32,879 --> 03:11:37,000
Speaker 1: attributed to Trump's declaration of war. But like I saw

3771
03:11:37,040 --> 03:11:39,760
Speaker 1: stuff like that three months ago, four months ago, Like

3772
03:11:39,879 --> 03:11:41,920
Speaker 1: it's been happening every day, like they do roll up

3773
03:11:41,959 --> 03:11:44,440
Speaker 1: in their vans when they because they periodically throughout the

3774
03:11:44,520 --> 03:11:46,560
Speaker 1: day will have Feds come in to go grab a

3775
03:11:46,600 --> 03:11:48,680
Speaker 1: couple of people. And that this is a thing they've

3776
03:11:48,720 --> 03:11:52,360
Speaker 1: been doing, so they've been so far at least, I

3777
03:11:52,480 --> 03:11:55,879
Speaker 1: have not seen either an escalation on the ground really

3778
03:11:56,200 --> 03:11:59,040
Speaker 1: in terms of like what protests, what the protests are doing,

3779
03:11:59,120 --> 03:12:01,920
Speaker 1: and the numbers of protest since Trump's declaration. And I

3780
03:12:02,000 --> 03:12:05,560
Speaker 1: also really haven't seen an escalation in what's being deployed

3781
03:12:05,920 --> 03:12:06,480
Speaker 1: on the ground.

3782
03:12:06,640 --> 03:12:08,880
Speaker 17: We have not seen the Oregon National Guard presence that

3783
03:12:09,000 --> 03:12:13,560
Speaker 17: is being promised now this has just been DHS officers.

3784
03:12:14,080 --> 03:12:18,080
Speaker 1: I can confirm, just based on some information that's come

3785
03:12:18,160 --> 03:12:20,480
Speaker 1: my way, that there do seem to be an increased

3786
03:12:20,600 --> 03:12:24,840
Speaker 1: number of DHS Blackhawks flying with their transponders off. Yes,

3787
03:12:24,879 --> 03:12:27,960
Speaker 1: there's a couple of reasons they can do that. Some

3788
03:12:28,080 --> 03:12:31,200
Speaker 1: of them is for if they are transporting like high

3789
03:12:31,280 --> 03:12:35,040
Speaker 1: value quote unquote deportees, right, people who are being deported

3790
03:12:35,120 --> 03:12:38,520
Speaker 1: for some sort of serious crime. Some of it is

3791
03:12:38,560 --> 03:12:40,480
Speaker 1: if they are feel like they are under threat and

3792
03:12:40,560 --> 03:12:44,600
Speaker 1: are doing like emergency personnel transfers. They're not generally supposed

3793
03:12:44,600 --> 03:12:47,320
Speaker 1: to fly without their transponders, although again, you can't really

3794
03:12:47,400 --> 03:12:49,520
Speaker 1: trust anything to work the way it's supposed to work.

3795
03:12:49,840 --> 03:12:51,760
Speaker 1: But there is some evidence that they have been ramping

3796
03:12:51,840 --> 03:12:54,480
Speaker 1: up and they have been flying more MQ nine's over

3797
03:12:54,520 --> 03:12:59,280
Speaker 1: the city reaper drones for surveillance purposes, so that I

3798
03:12:59,400 --> 03:13:00,960
Speaker 1: can say to it does seem to have been a

3799
03:13:01,080 --> 03:13:03,600
Speaker 1: degree of escalation, but in terms of we're not seeing

3800
03:13:03,720 --> 03:13:06,600
Speaker 1: troops marching through the city yet, and I honestly can't,

3801
03:13:06,600 --> 03:13:08,480
Speaker 1: it doesn't seem to me, as of the moment that

3802
03:13:08,560 --> 03:13:11,080
Speaker 1: we're recording this, that there has been an escalation and

3803
03:13:11,120 --> 03:13:13,880
Speaker 1: the level of force used on the ground right now.

3804
03:13:13,920 --> 03:13:15,840
Speaker 1: That said, the level of force use on the ground

3805
03:13:15,959 --> 03:13:19,800
Speaker 1: before Trump declared his war on Portland or whatever, it

3806
03:13:19,879 --> 03:13:22,880
Speaker 1: was still pretty extreme. That has continued. I just it

3807
03:13:22,920 --> 03:13:25,400
Speaker 1: doesn't seem like what's happening right now is a massive

3808
03:13:25,640 --> 03:13:27,440
Speaker 1: increase over where we were two weeks ago, you know.

3809
03:13:27,520 --> 03:13:28,160
Speaker 1: That's all I'm saying.

3810
03:13:28,480 --> 03:13:30,840
Speaker 12: And I think the place where that has happened is Chicago,

3811
03:13:30,879 --> 03:13:32,119
Speaker 12: and we will get to that later.

3812
03:13:32,560 --> 03:13:34,080
Speaker 5: Yeah. Yeah. Well.

3813
03:13:34,360 --> 03:13:38,480
Speaker 17: Trump has continued to talk about deploying quote unquote troops

3814
03:13:38,760 --> 03:13:43,640
Speaker 17: to US cities, including at a meeting of top brass

3815
03:13:43,800 --> 03:13:48,080
Speaker 17: on Tuesday, September thirtieth, where Pete hag Seth basically ranted

3816
03:13:48,600 --> 03:13:51,800
Speaker 17: to top of generals and admirals about no more wokeness

3817
03:13:51,879 --> 03:13:56,680
Speaker 17: in the military, but Trump also spoke telling top military

3818
03:13:56,680 --> 03:13:59,959
Speaker 17: officials to prepare to deploy military to liberal run city,

3819
03:14:00,800 --> 03:14:05,000
Speaker 17: calling it a quote war from within. Let's play the clip.

3820
03:14:05,560 --> 03:14:08,400
Speaker 8: But it seems that the ones that are run by

3821
03:14:08,400 --> 03:14:12,560
Speaker 8: the radical left Democrats, what they've done to San Francisco, Chicago,

3822
03:14:13,560 --> 03:14:17,959
Speaker 8: New York, Los Angeles, they're very unsafe places, and we're

3823
03:14:18,000 --> 03:14:19,480
Speaker 8: going to straighten them out. It will be a major

3824
03:14:19,560 --> 03:14:21,480
Speaker 8: part for some of the people in this room. That's

3825
03:14:21,480 --> 03:14:24,840
Speaker 8: a war too, It's a war from within. Controlling the

3826
03:14:24,920 --> 03:14:29,240
Speaker 8: physical territory of our border is essential to national security.

3827
03:14:29,320 --> 03:14:30,600
Speaker 8: We can't let these people.

3828
03:14:30,400 --> 03:14:34,480
Speaker 13: In the two separate issues they have that he conflated, right,

3829
03:14:34,760 --> 03:14:38,360
Speaker 13: protests in cities and people crossing the border.

3830
03:14:39,120 --> 03:14:42,120
Speaker 17: Yeah, and that's the way Trump's been talking about this

3831
03:14:42,200 --> 03:14:44,000
Speaker 17: for a while. I mean, same thing with like DC right,

3832
03:14:44,160 --> 03:14:49,320
Speaker 17: combining this like crime issue with undocumented immigration, and also

3833
03:14:49,480 --> 03:14:54,119
Speaker 17: with protests against ICE operations targeting undocumented immigrants, all kind

3834
03:14:54,160 --> 03:14:57,480
Speaker 17: of bundled together into this into this war from within.

3835
03:14:58,120 --> 03:14:58,360
Speaker 10: Yeah.

3836
03:14:59,080 --> 03:15:02,360
Speaker 13: I mean the ration issue, right, is one that gives

3837
03:15:02,440 --> 03:15:06,120
Speaker 13: him a much broaderly way and the powers the constitutionally

3838
03:15:06,160 --> 03:15:10,320
Speaker 13: available to him as the executive than policing with the military,

3839
03:15:10,360 --> 03:15:12,240
Speaker 13: which is on the facefoot of thing that shouldn't happen

3840
03:15:12,280 --> 03:15:15,160
Speaker 13: in the United States. It makes sense from a tactical

3841
03:15:15,200 --> 03:15:17,640
Speaker 13: perspective for them to conflate those two things together, I

3842
03:15:17,680 --> 03:15:20,360
Speaker 13: will say, even if it's not particularly real.

3843
03:15:21,440 --> 03:15:26,000
Speaker 17: During this televised meeting, Trump told military leaders quote, last month,

3844
03:15:26,040 --> 03:15:28,320
Speaker 17: I signing an executive order to provide training for a

3845
03:15:28,440 --> 03:15:33,880
Speaker 17: quick reaction force that can help quell civil disturbances. This

3846
03:15:34,040 --> 03:15:35,680
Speaker 17: is going to be a big thing for the people

3847
03:15:35,840 --> 03:15:39,760
Speaker 17: in this room talking to the generals, because it's the

3848
03:15:40,240 --> 03:15:43,400
Speaker 17: enemy from within, and we will have to handle it

3849
03:15:43,520 --> 03:15:46,080
Speaker 17: before it gets out of control. It won't get out

3850
03:15:46,120 --> 03:15:48,800
Speaker 17: of control once you're involved.

3851
03:15:49,240 --> 03:15:49,720
Speaker 7: Unquote.

3852
03:15:50,360 --> 03:15:54,920
Speaker 17: They're directly addressing admirals and generals about them having to

3853
03:15:54,959 --> 03:15:58,160
Speaker 17: help form a quick reaction for us to quell civil disturbance,

3854
03:15:58,600 --> 03:16:01,440
Speaker 17: which won't get out of control once they're involved, calling

3855
03:16:01,520 --> 03:16:03,840
Speaker 17: it again the enemy from within, align that Trump used

3856
03:16:03,840 --> 03:16:06,360
Speaker 17: a lot during the tail end of his presidential campaign

3857
03:16:06,400 --> 03:16:07,280
Speaker 17: in twenty twenty four.

3858
03:16:07,720 --> 03:16:11,039
Speaker 12: Yeah, which is just it's every single element.

3859
03:16:11,080 --> 03:16:13,560
Speaker 17: If it is just fascist, it's it's pretty it's pretty

3860
03:16:13,560 --> 03:16:15,920
Speaker 17: blanket authoritarian stuff. Like there's no like sugarcoating it here.

3861
03:16:15,959 --> 03:16:18,600
Speaker 17: Oh yeah, Yeah, they don't need to use coded phrases, right,

3862
03:16:18,840 --> 03:16:19,720
Speaker 17: they just say this stuff.

3863
03:16:19,920 --> 03:16:21,880
Speaker 12: Yeah, No, they're just yeah, they're just this is this

3864
03:16:22,000 --> 03:16:24,240
Speaker 12: is just fascist, Like they're just trying to do it.

3865
03:16:24,360 --> 03:16:25,480
Speaker 13: Yeah, they're just saying the thing.

3866
03:16:25,760 --> 03:16:30,000
Speaker 17: In the meeting, he explicitly labeled these dangerous cities as

3867
03:16:30,360 --> 03:16:33,520
Speaker 17: a training ground for our military National Guard.

3868
03:16:33,840 --> 03:16:36,080
Speaker 8: But I want to salute every service member who has

3869
03:16:36,120 --> 03:16:38,720
Speaker 8: helped us carry out this critical mission. It's really a

3870
03:16:38,840 --> 03:16:41,800
Speaker 8: very important mission. And I told Pete we should use

3871
03:16:41,840 --> 03:16:45,640
Speaker 8: some of these dangerous cities as training grounds for our

3872
03:16:45,760 --> 03:16:50,800
Speaker 8: military National Guard. But military because we're going into Chicago version.

3873
03:16:50,959 --> 03:16:54,960
Speaker 8: That's a big city with an incompetent governor. Stupid governor stupid.

3874
03:16:55,800 --> 03:16:57,920
Speaker 12: And I think it's worth noting both the mayor of

3875
03:16:58,080 --> 03:17:02,440
Speaker 12: Chicago and the governor Prits have been very unhappy about this.

3876
03:17:03,440 --> 03:17:07,320
Speaker 12: Like as much as Pritzker has kind of not been

3877
03:17:07,360 --> 03:17:12,280
Speaker 12: doing anything about like CPD aiding ice in raids, he

3878
03:17:12,480 --> 03:17:16,440
Speaker 12: is absolutely not budging at all about not putting National

3879
03:17:16,440 --> 03:17:19,360
Speaker 12: Guard troops in. So if they're very serious about following

3880
03:17:19,400 --> 03:17:20,800
Speaker 12: this through, we're going to see some kind of large

3881
03:17:20,800 --> 03:17:21,560
Speaker 12: scale confrontation.

3882
03:17:21,720 --> 03:17:21,879
Speaker 7: Yep.

3883
03:17:22,360 --> 03:17:29,440
Speaker 12: And Pritzker is not the kind of like knock needs Uh,

3884
03:17:30,640 --> 03:17:32,920
Speaker 12: Gavin Newsom type governor.

3885
03:17:33,120 --> 03:17:34,199
Speaker 13: Yeah, he's not Gavin Newson.

3886
03:17:34,320 --> 03:17:36,560
Speaker 12: He's not simply just going to let Trump do this.

3887
03:17:37,120 --> 03:17:39,080
Speaker 12: And yeah, that's going to be a major source of

3888
03:17:39,120 --> 03:17:41,680
Speaker 12: confrontation assuming this, assuming this specific like we're going to

3889
03:17:41,720 --> 03:17:45,040
Speaker 12: send the National Guard in the Chicago stuff like happens soon.

3890
03:17:45,879 --> 03:17:50,640
Speaker 17: Trump also talked about talking with Tina Kotec, governor of Oregon,

3891
03:17:50,879 --> 03:17:54,320
Speaker 17: about deploying Oregon National Gardener, and her pushing back against that,

3892
03:17:54,560 --> 03:17:58,320
Speaker 17: but ostensibly acquiescing in some way because there's been an

3893
03:17:58,320 --> 03:18:00,240
Speaker 17: announcement from the organ National Guard that they will be

3894
03:18:00,280 --> 03:18:02,720
Speaker 17: deploying and people in Oregon probably aren't gonna be happy

3895
03:18:02,720 --> 03:18:06,280
Speaker 17: about it, they won't understand the mission. But during this meeting,

3896
03:18:06,360 --> 03:18:09,959
Speaker 17: Trump did talk about his phone calls with the Oregon governor.

3897
03:18:10,160 --> 03:18:15,400
Speaker 8: Portland, Oregon, where it looks like a war zone, and

3898
03:18:15,520 --> 03:18:18,760
Speaker 8: I get a call from the liberal governor, sir, please

3899
03:18:18,800 --> 03:18:20,920
Speaker 8: don't come in. We don't need you. I said, well,

3900
03:18:21,000 --> 03:18:24,959
Speaker 8: unless they're playing false tapes, this looked like World War two.

3901
03:18:25,840 --> 03:18:30,840
Speaker 8: Your place is burning down. I mean, you must be kidding, sir.

3902
03:18:31,080 --> 03:18:32,800
Speaker 8: We have it under control. I said, you don't have

3903
03:18:32,879 --> 03:18:36,360
Speaker 8: it under control, Governor. But I'll check it and I'll

3904
03:18:36,400 --> 03:18:38,560
Speaker 8: call you back. I called it back. I said, this

3905
03:18:38,720 --> 03:18:43,800
Speaker 8: place is a nightmare. Probably it's certainly not the biggest,

3906
03:18:43,840 --> 03:18:46,480
Speaker 8: but it's one of the worst. Is brew They go

3907
03:18:46,560 --> 03:18:50,880
Speaker 8: after our ice people, who are great patriots and tough

3908
03:18:51,040 --> 03:18:52,840
Speaker 8: job too, but they love it. They love it because

3909
03:18:52,840 --> 03:18:54,439
Speaker 8: they're cleaning up our country.

3910
03:18:55,320 --> 03:18:57,640
Speaker 13: And I think because there's a fifty thousand dollars sign up.

3911
03:18:59,000 --> 03:19:02,080
Speaker 17: Well, unless they're play false tapes, so the tapes aren't

3912
03:19:02,120 --> 03:19:05,280
Speaker 17: necessarily false. But if you're watching Fox News twenty four

3913
03:19:05,280 --> 03:19:08,560
Speaker 17: to seven, what Fox News is doing is they're playing

3914
03:19:08,600 --> 03:19:10,480
Speaker 17: a lot of clips not from the Year of Our

3915
03:19:10,560 --> 03:19:13,400
Speaker 17: Lord twenty twenty five, but in fact from twenty twenty

3916
03:19:14,000 --> 03:19:18,000
Speaker 17: when Trump's last federal invasion of Portland happened, where he

3917
03:19:18,080 --> 03:19:21,520
Speaker 17: deployed Bortac, which looked much more like a war scene.

3918
03:19:21,560 --> 03:19:24,000
Speaker 17: Do you know why, because of the massive amounts of

3919
03:19:24,080 --> 03:19:29,400
Speaker 17: chemical munitions that Bortac like caked downtown Portland in which

3920
03:19:29,440 --> 03:19:33,680
Speaker 17: made it look very similar to a war scene. So, yeah,

3921
03:19:34,160 --> 03:19:37,160
Speaker 17: those are the clips that are playing NonStop on TV.

3922
03:19:37,320 --> 03:19:39,879
Speaker 17: I've been watching Fox News clips. They're just playing clips

3923
03:19:39,920 --> 03:19:43,600
Speaker 17: of Portland twenty twenty to make this look like a

3924
03:19:43,640 --> 03:19:46,320
Speaker 17: different situation than what the current on the ground situation is,

3925
03:19:46,600 --> 03:19:50,040
Speaker 17: which may have some intense moments, but not nearly the

3926
03:19:50,120 --> 03:19:53,880
Speaker 17: intensity of five years ago, which again was stoked by

3927
03:19:53,920 --> 03:19:57,960
Speaker 17: Trump's own military police force, which was deployed to the city.

3928
03:19:58,520 --> 03:20:03,320
Speaker 1: So, yeah, there's information that Trump got corrected. Internally, I

3929
03:20:03,400 --> 03:20:05,320
Speaker 1: don't know that I think that that's going to mean anything,

3930
03:20:06,080 --> 03:20:09,600
Speaker 1: but yeah, six year old footage, five year old footage

3931
03:20:09,640 --> 03:20:12,600
Speaker 1: being used to justify military deployments about you'd expect.

3932
03:20:13,160 --> 03:20:16,600
Speaker 17: Really literally, yesterday I saw footage circulating on x the

3933
03:20:16,680 --> 03:20:20,320
Speaker 17: Everything app of someone throwing a Molotov cocktail into a street.

3934
03:20:20,400 --> 03:20:25,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, I remember that Molotov. I remember that molo, that

3935
03:20:26,040 --> 03:20:29,080
Speaker 1: malotav getting thrown half a decade ago.

3936
03:20:29,320 --> 03:20:32,680
Speaker 17: It only hit another protester whose feet got very badly burned. Yes,

3937
03:20:33,160 --> 03:20:35,520
Speaker 17: And that's the type of footage circulating that makes it

3938
03:20:35,560 --> 03:20:38,279
Speaker 17: look like, you know, once again, Portland's burning down, Portland's

3939
03:20:38,280 --> 03:20:41,440
Speaker 17: always burning down, using like one or two select clips

3940
03:20:41,520 --> 03:20:43,120
Speaker 17: from yeah, half a decade ago.

3941
03:20:43,280 --> 03:20:45,640
Speaker 1: Again, no buildings actually burnt down.

3942
03:20:46,080 --> 03:20:49,320
Speaker 13: Yeah, they've created a reality around what happened important in

3943
03:20:49,360 --> 03:20:53,400
Speaker 13: twenty twenty that you will never change with facts or evidence. Right,

3944
03:20:53,560 --> 03:20:57,240
Speaker 13: Like to people who watch Fox News. Portland was burned

3945
03:20:57,280 --> 03:20:59,480
Speaker 13: to the ground in twenty twenty.

3946
03:20:59,400 --> 03:21:02,000
Speaker 1: And on the worst nights in Portland, we could go

3947
03:21:02,120 --> 03:21:04,440
Speaker 1: three blocks and get food from a food cart.

3948
03:21:04,560 --> 03:21:06,160
Speaker 12: Yeah, we got a lot of great Chinese food.

3949
03:21:06,160 --> 03:21:06,480
Speaker 5: That stuff.

3950
03:21:06,480 --> 03:21:10,440
Speaker 1: We've got great Chinese food, schwarma, you know in La.

3951
03:21:10,440 --> 03:21:13,120
Speaker 13: When the city was whatever under siege. I went to

3952
03:21:13,160 --> 03:21:16,480
Speaker 13: Buffalo Wild Wings and pretty pretty normal Buffalo Wild Wings

3953
03:21:16,520 --> 03:21:17,879
Speaker 13: at two am on a Wednesday scene.

3954
03:21:18,320 --> 03:21:20,720
Speaker 1: That's a war zone. That's a war zone.

3955
03:21:20,800 --> 03:21:23,760
Speaker 13: I had my plague carrier on. I was ready to go.

3956
03:21:24,360 --> 03:21:25,120
Speaker 12: Here's some ads.

3957
03:21:25,200 --> 03:21:28,840
Speaker 17: We'll be back to talk about Chicago. But enjoy these

3958
03:21:29,440 --> 03:21:31,520
Speaker 17: possibly Buffalo Wild Wings sponsored ads.

3959
03:21:31,920 --> 03:21:48,560
Speaker 13: I doubt it. No vegan food. All right, we are back, sweet,

3960
03:21:48,600 --> 03:21:50,440
Speaker 13: and it's good to be back. I want to talk

3961
03:21:50,680 --> 03:21:55,400
Speaker 13: very briefly about Pete egsass sec war as he is

3962
03:21:55,480 --> 03:21:57,680
Speaker 13: calling himself now right in the little speech he gave

3963
03:21:57,760 --> 03:22:03,640
Speaker 13: Pete Pegs he's he's working on his physical fitness for sure,

3964
03:22:03,680 --> 03:22:07,640
Speaker 13: his bod that he put a big emphasis on physical

3965
03:22:07,680 --> 03:22:10,800
Speaker 13: fitness in his speech, along with grooming standards and other shit.

3966
03:22:11,000 --> 03:22:12,039
Speaker 17: Male standards.

3967
03:22:12,360 --> 03:22:15,080
Speaker 13: Yes, everybody has to attain the male standard for the

3968
03:22:15,160 --> 03:22:19,080
Speaker 13: various role of their combat roles that if they want

3969
03:22:19,120 --> 03:22:21,000
Speaker 13: to do that, right, So that would mean, you know,

3970
03:22:21,080 --> 03:22:24,560
Speaker 13: the Army Physical Fitness test, right, whatever the male standard

3971
03:22:24,680 --> 03:22:28,000
Speaker 13: quote unquote was would be everyone's standard. I don't want

3972
03:22:28,000 --> 03:22:30,040
Speaker 13: to go deep into hegseth career that would be that

3973
03:22:30,040 --> 03:22:33,320
Speaker 13: would be another episode, possibly of another show. But I

3974
03:22:33,360 --> 03:22:35,560
Speaker 13: do want to talk about the stuff. Did you notice

3975
03:22:35,600 --> 03:22:37,720
Speaker 13: he said no more. He listed number of generals, but

3976
03:22:37,800 --> 03:22:39,600
Speaker 13: one of them was Milli, Right, he said no more

3977
03:22:39,680 --> 03:22:42,200
Speaker 13: Millis Chiarelli, and I forget who the other one was,

3978
03:22:42,640 --> 03:22:45,680
Speaker 13: But I thought that was interesting given what we saw

3979
03:22:45,800 --> 03:22:49,000
Speaker 13: Trump say about a QRF. Right, Milli had a long

3980
03:22:49,080 --> 03:22:51,360
Speaker 13: career in the military. Right, he saw plenty of combat

3981
03:22:51,400 --> 03:22:53,680
Speaker 13: and all that stuff. But I think he's most well

3982
03:22:53,720 --> 03:22:57,120
Speaker 13: known to most people for his cooling effect on the

3983
03:22:57,280 --> 03:23:01,360
Speaker 13: use of the US military against protests in twenty twenty ls.

3984
03:23:01,640 --> 03:23:04,600
Speaker 13: I think that is what that was referring to, Right

3985
03:23:04,680 --> 03:23:08,160
Speaker 13: that Hegcess was talking about removing that kind of person

3986
03:23:08,480 --> 03:23:09,199
Speaker 13: from command.

3987
03:23:09,360 --> 03:23:13,360
Speaker 1: And Milly also said no to Trump when he wanted

3988
03:23:13,440 --> 03:23:16,680
Speaker 1: to deploy for and he was also working behind the scenes.

3989
03:23:16,720 --> 03:23:19,120
Speaker 1: He's admitted now with Pelosi being like, we need to

3990
03:23:19,320 --> 03:23:21,160
Speaker 1: have a plan if he tries to use the nukes

3991
03:23:21,200 --> 03:23:21,879
Speaker 1: after the election.

3992
03:23:22,360 --> 03:23:26,440
Speaker 13: Yeah, Milly was doing everything he could to mitigate what

3993
03:23:26,520 --> 03:23:31,000
Speaker 13: he saw as a massive danger of Trump responding in

3994
03:23:31,080 --> 03:23:32,840
Speaker 13: a completely disproportionate.

3995
03:23:32,240 --> 03:23:34,200
Speaker 17: Way, a legitimate national security and danger.

3996
03:23:34,320 --> 03:23:38,240
Speaker 13: Yeah, yes, yeah, like, yeah, someone whose job is protecting

3997
03:23:38,280 --> 03:23:41,000
Speaker 13: the United States like that, that's some reasonable concern. Was

3998
03:23:41,040 --> 03:23:44,760
Speaker 13: a reasonable concern at that time. Obviously, the Trump administration

3999
03:23:44,920 --> 03:23:48,640
Speaker 13: does not want people like that in command anymore, and

4000
03:23:49,080 --> 03:23:51,920
Speaker 13: that was something that hegxcess spoke about at length. The

4001
03:23:52,120 --> 03:23:56,200
Speaker 13: rest of his speech focused on shit like fitness standards,

4002
03:23:56,240 --> 03:23:59,800
Speaker 13: shit like grooming visible tattoos, a bunch of stuff that

4003
03:23:59,840 --> 03:24:03,200
Speaker 13: you would expect from a mid career infantry officer who

4004
03:24:03,240 --> 03:24:05,560
Speaker 13: hasn't had a particularly distinguished career, right, Like, that's the

4005
03:24:05,600 --> 03:24:08,960
Speaker 13: shit that mid career infantry officers do.

4006
03:24:09,280 --> 03:24:12,160
Speaker 17: I think you mean war fighters, James, which is Haig

4007
03:24:12,240 --> 03:24:14,040
Speaker 17: Seth's preferred term for soldiers.

4008
03:24:14,240 --> 03:24:19,920
Speaker 13: Yes, fuck me. Yeah, Well, because it's gender neutrals start that.

4009
03:24:20,040 --> 03:24:21,280
Speaker 1: They've been doing that for a while.

4010
03:24:21,400 --> 03:24:23,280
Speaker 13: But yeah, it's on the MRIs, it's been on the

4011
03:24:23,320 --> 03:24:25,760
Speaker 13: Emeris for a while. But yes, Haig Seth does like

4012
03:24:25,840 --> 03:24:30,480
Speaker 13: the phrase war fighters. His stuff was, like I said,

4013
03:24:30,520 --> 03:24:32,600
Speaker 13: not something you would expect from someone who I think

4014
03:24:32,640 --> 03:24:35,760
Speaker 13: he was an O four in the national card, right.

4015
03:24:35,840 --> 03:24:39,040
Speaker 13: I don't think any of that is particularly new. He

4016
03:24:39,160 --> 03:24:42,600
Speaker 13: issued a number of directives. One thing I did want

4017
03:24:42,640 --> 03:24:46,520
Speaker 13: to talk about was this change in grooming standards. So

4018
03:24:46,879 --> 03:24:52,440
Speaker 13: the War Department has issued a new directive on shaving profiles.

4019
03:24:53,080 --> 03:24:56,959
Speaker 13: What this does in practice is we can see from

4020
03:24:57,000 --> 03:25:01,040
Speaker 13: their announcement, which features prominently a black soldier shaving, is

4021
03:25:01,440 --> 03:25:05,520
Speaker 13: it takes away long term shaving profiles for soldiers with

4022
03:25:05,600 --> 03:25:10,760
Speaker 13: medical conditions such as pseudopholic gulitis or exma, or other

4023
03:25:10,840 --> 03:25:14,000
Speaker 13: soldiers who experienced skin irritation by shaving.

4024
03:25:14,120 --> 03:25:14,200
Speaker 14: Right.

4025
03:25:14,360 --> 03:25:18,200
Speaker 13: Previously, those soldiers may have had a like a waiver

4026
03:25:18,720 --> 03:25:22,400
Speaker 13: which they could show to their officers, and their officer said, hey, soldier,

4027
03:25:22,480 --> 03:25:28,320
Speaker 13: why haven't you shaved? Soldier, sailor, emon, Space Force guardian, whatever,

4028
03:25:28,879 --> 03:25:31,080
Speaker 13: why haven't you shaved? They could say, well, I'm on

4029
03:25:31,160 --> 03:25:33,680
Speaker 13: the shaving profile because of this condition that I have.

4030
03:25:34,280 --> 03:25:37,520
Speaker 13: Now you will only have a year and then you

4031
03:25:37,560 --> 03:25:41,600
Speaker 13: will have to somehow rectify that condition. They talk about

4032
03:25:41,640 --> 03:25:42,840
Speaker 13: treatments a little bit in this, So now it's on

4033
03:25:42,879 --> 03:25:44,280
Speaker 13: which you can read if you want, not going to

4034
03:25:44,320 --> 03:25:46,440
Speaker 13: read them out for you, but this will very clearly

4035
03:25:46,680 --> 03:25:49,800
Speaker 13: target black service people the most, and I don't think

4036
03:25:49,840 --> 03:25:53,040
Speaker 13: that's a coincidence. And as we see from the picture

4037
03:25:53,160 --> 03:25:57,080
Speaker 13: of the black soldiers shaving in the in the release

4038
03:25:57,160 --> 03:25:59,720
Speaker 13: that they sent out there, this is happening at the

4039
03:25:59,720 --> 03:26:01,560
Speaker 13: same time as arrested his stuff, right, and at the

4040
03:26:01,560 --> 03:26:05,000
Speaker 13: same time as we've seen trans folks removed from the military.

4041
03:26:05,360 --> 03:26:08,360
Speaker 13: As heg Theft, seems to be going pretty hard on

4042
03:26:08,520 --> 03:26:13,760
Speaker 13: removing women from combat roles. He's previously been more out

4043
03:26:14,200 --> 03:26:16,240
Speaker 13: right in that this time he's in his speech he

4044
03:26:16,360 --> 03:26:18,240
Speaker 13: was talking about how women, if they could meet the

4045
03:26:18,280 --> 03:26:21,520
Speaker 13: same standards as men, would be welcoming combat roles, but

4046
03:26:21,600 --> 03:26:25,560
Speaker 13: they wouldn't quote unquote lower the standards. The whole thing

4047
03:26:25,640 --> 03:26:28,560
Speaker 13: was pretty remarkable to see, heg Theft lecturing, you know,

4048
03:26:28,640 --> 03:26:33,800
Speaker 13: people who have spent collectively maybe hundreds of years in combat.

4049
03:26:33,560 --> 03:26:38,600
Speaker 17: Right, people have spent decades losing wars. Yeah yeah, decades

4050
03:26:38,680 --> 03:26:40,119
Speaker 17: of period of time.

4051
03:26:40,400 --> 03:26:44,160
Speaker 13: Yeah yeah, I mean centuries between them, right, But explaining

4052
03:26:44,240 --> 03:26:48,280
Speaker 13: how warfare works to people who have vastly more experience

4053
03:26:48,360 --> 03:26:51,760
Speaker 13: in it than him, yes, and basically telling them it's

4054
03:26:51,840 --> 03:26:55,520
Speaker 13: not a myth that we haven't seen from fascist states before. Right,

4055
03:26:55,840 --> 03:26:57,960
Speaker 13: the soldiers were fine, but they were betrayed by the

4056
03:26:58,000 --> 03:27:01,920
Speaker 13: politicians in the generals. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is nothing new. Yeah,

4057
03:27:01,959 --> 03:27:04,400
Speaker 13: but it was still kind of remarkable to see Heigfast

4058
03:27:04,600 --> 03:27:06,599
Speaker 13: delivering it to the generals.

4059
03:27:06,320 --> 03:27:09,240
Speaker 17: And specifically, both he and Trump made statements about if

4060
03:27:09,360 --> 03:27:11,960
Speaker 17: the generals and animals do not like what Trump and

4061
03:27:12,000 --> 03:27:15,800
Speaker 17: Heksa were saying, they should just resign, they should just leave.

4062
03:27:16,400 --> 03:27:19,120
Speaker 22: I've never walked into a room so silent before. This

4063
03:27:19,320 --> 03:27:22,080
Speaker 22: is very don't laugh, don't life if you're not allowed

4064
03:27:22,160 --> 03:27:24,760
Speaker 22: to do that, you know what, Just have a good time,

4065
03:27:25,240 --> 03:27:27,920
Speaker 22: and if you want to applaud, you applaud. And if

4066
03:27:27,959 --> 03:27:29,880
Speaker 22: you want to do anything you want, you can do

4067
03:27:29,959 --> 03:27:31,959
Speaker 22: anything you want. And if you don't like what I'm saying,

4068
03:27:31,959 --> 03:27:34,360
Speaker 22: you can leave the room. Of course, there goes your rank,

4069
03:27:34,400 --> 03:27:40,080
Speaker 22: there goes your future. But you just feel nice and loose, okay,

4070
03:27:40,240 --> 03:27:41,680
Speaker 22: because we're all on the same team.

4071
03:27:43,120 --> 03:27:45,920
Speaker 17: Part of this is because Trump just wants more loyalists

4072
03:27:46,080 --> 03:27:49,440
Speaker 17: in the upper grass of the military, like that's part

4073
03:27:49,520 --> 03:27:51,880
Speaker 17: of this process. That's why he doesn't want millies. He

4074
03:27:51,879 --> 03:27:54,160
Speaker 17: doesn't want people that will deny him. He wants just

4075
03:27:54,280 --> 03:27:56,720
Speaker 17: a complete loyalist government, and that includes the military.

4076
03:27:56,920 --> 03:27:57,120
Speaker 5: Yeah.

4077
03:27:57,640 --> 03:28:00,040
Speaker 17: And if that means that we're going to have a

4078
03:28:00,040 --> 03:28:02,720
Speaker 17: whole bunch of generals and animals resigned because of hig

4079
03:28:02,840 --> 03:28:06,920
Speaker 17: Seth and Trump's anti woke granting, then that's a desirable

4080
03:28:06,959 --> 03:28:09,160
Speaker 17: outcome for the administration at this point.

4081
03:28:09,520 --> 03:28:09,720
Speaker 15: Yeah.

4082
03:28:10,600 --> 03:28:15,320
Speaker 17: Speaking of war Chicago, Yeah.

4083
03:28:15,400 --> 03:28:18,800
Speaker 12: I mean the scenes that I have seen the most

4084
03:28:18,879 --> 03:28:24,120
Speaker 12: frequently described as war or looking like a war this week,

4085
03:28:24,200 --> 03:28:27,000
Speaker 12: have come out of Chicago, where on Tuesday the thirtieth,

4086
03:28:27,120 --> 03:28:31,200
Speaker 12: there was one of the most brutal raids that we've

4087
03:28:31,320 --> 03:28:37,080
Speaker 12: seen from the FEDS yet in any city. This took

4088
03:28:37,120 --> 03:28:39,400
Speaker 12: place in South Shore, which is a ninety percent black

4089
03:28:39,400 --> 03:28:42,440
Speaker 12: neighborhood on the south side of Chicago, where a whole

4090
03:28:42,440 --> 03:28:45,560
Speaker 12: bunch of immigrants who I don't know if people remember

4091
03:28:45,680 --> 03:28:48,280
Speaker 12: when Texas and a bunch of other states in the

4092
03:28:48,360 --> 03:28:51,120
Speaker 12: South started busting immigrants up to cities in the north.

4093
03:28:51,200 --> 03:28:52,880
Speaker 12: Chicago is one of the ones where that happened. A

4094
03:28:52,959 --> 03:28:55,959
Speaker 12: lot a lot of these people ended up in South Shore,

4095
03:28:56,920 --> 03:29:01,400
Speaker 12: and there was a massive rate on an apartment complex

4096
03:29:01,600 --> 03:29:04,720
Speaker 12: in the South Shore. Agents showed up in a combination

4097
03:29:05,000 --> 03:29:08,359
Speaker 12: of moving vans, sort of unmarked vans and armored vehicles

4098
03:29:09,480 --> 03:29:12,640
Speaker 12: it's still unclear exactly how many people were taken. We

4099
03:29:12,760 --> 03:29:16,600
Speaker 12: so don't know. Estimates at the time suggested about forty.

4100
03:29:17,440 --> 03:29:19,840
Speaker 12: It's very unclear. What we do know about the raid

4101
03:29:19,920 --> 03:29:23,000
Speaker 12: was that it was absolutely brutal. A bunch of a

4102
03:29:23,040 --> 03:29:25,039
Speaker 12: bunch of the initial reports thought that they had been shooting,

4103
03:29:25,120 --> 03:29:26,800
Speaker 12: but there hadn't been shooting. What there had been was

4104
03:29:26,840 --> 03:29:30,400
Speaker 12: that they blew into this apartment complex with flash bank grenades.

4105
03:29:30,560 --> 03:29:33,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty common for people to mistake those two.

4106
03:29:33,760 --> 03:29:33,960
Speaker 8: Yeah.

4107
03:29:34,360 --> 03:29:36,520
Speaker 12: Yeah, and these are just you know, these are just

4108
03:29:36,800 --> 03:29:39,440
Speaker 12: regular people who suddenly at one in the morning, a

4109
03:29:39,480 --> 03:29:42,480
Speaker 12: bunch of explosions start going off. There's a whole bunch

4110
03:29:42,520 --> 03:29:45,360
Speaker 12: of pictures that you can see in various articles about

4111
03:29:45,360 --> 03:29:48,840
Speaker 12: this of doors torn off their hinges. The agents did

4112
03:29:48,920 --> 03:29:51,279
Speaker 12: a I think this is a classic Chicago police tactic,

4113
03:29:51,400 --> 03:29:53,720
Speaker 12: but you know, they just went through and just started

4114
03:29:53,959 --> 03:29:56,600
Speaker 12: grabbing everyone's stuff and tearing through it and throwing it

4115
03:29:56,720 --> 03:30:01,080
Speaker 12: onto the ground. There were black Hawk kilicops optors like

4116
03:30:01,360 --> 03:30:06,320
Speaker 12: constantly circling this just random apartment complex. There was a

4117
03:30:06,400 --> 03:30:10,280
Speaker 12: massive FBI presence alongside border patrol and ice.

4118
03:30:10,720 --> 03:30:10,920
Speaker 10: Yeah.

4119
03:30:11,000 --> 03:30:14,360
Speaker 12: It's also worth mentioning that Independent book Club Chicago, which

4120
03:30:14,400 --> 03:30:17,680
Speaker 12: is one of the very sort of prominent independent local

4121
03:30:17,760 --> 03:30:20,320
Speaker 12: media outlets. There obtained a picture from a neighbor who

4122
03:30:20,520 --> 03:30:23,760
Speaker 12: was like next to the raid that show Chicago Police

4123
03:30:23,800 --> 03:30:27,000
Speaker 12: Department on the scene, which they are there expressly forbidden

4124
03:30:27,520 --> 03:30:31,400
Speaker 12: like by state law from assisting in immigration enforcement. It

4125
03:30:31,560 --> 03:30:34,440
Speaker 12: is worth reading this article in order to see this

4126
03:30:34,720 --> 03:30:37,880
Speaker 12: quote quote. We did not participate in or assist with

4127
03:30:38,000 --> 03:30:41,880
Speaker 12: any immigration enforcement, spokesperson Maggie he Un said in a statement,

4128
03:30:42,600 --> 03:30:45,400
Speaker 12: followed immediately by pictures that clearly show a CPD car

4129
03:30:45,520 --> 03:30:49,400
Speaker 12: on the scene of this raid. Yeah, this raid is

4130
03:30:49,480 --> 03:30:53,920
Speaker 12: a really significant escalation of force in a cy that

4131
03:30:54,000 --> 03:30:57,000
Speaker 12: has I mean, I've already seen ice literally shoot someone

4132
03:30:57,040 --> 03:31:00,440
Speaker 12: and kill them. But yeah, I'm going to quote this

4133
03:31:00,720 --> 03:31:03,760
Speaker 12: from Tribe, which is another independent news outlet in collaboration

4134
03:31:03,840 --> 03:31:07,840
Speaker 12: with unraffled Press. Veronica Castro off the Illinois Coalition for

4135
03:31:07,920 --> 03:31:11,520
Speaker 12: Immigrant and Refugee Rights, at a press conference said quote,

4136
03:31:12,040 --> 03:31:15,000
Speaker 12: this looked like hundreds of masked agents knocking down doors

4137
03:31:15,040 --> 03:31:17,039
Speaker 12: and dragging families out in the middle of the night,

4138
03:31:17,440 --> 03:31:22,640
Speaker 12: holding babies that were unclothed. Castro added, so they are

4139
03:31:22,720 --> 03:31:25,360
Speaker 12: dragging people from their homes in the middle of the night,

4140
03:31:25,480 --> 03:31:28,160
Speaker 12: holding naked babies because people haven't had time, Like they're

4141
03:31:28,200 --> 03:31:31,400
Speaker 12: not giving people time to like even put clothes on something.

4142
03:31:31,440 --> 03:31:33,280
Speaker 12: You see a lot in the accounts of this. I'm

4143
03:31:33,320 --> 03:31:35,680
Speaker 12: going to read some more from an account from ABC.

4144
03:31:37,000 --> 03:31:38,560
Speaker 12: As I got to my unit to stick my key

4145
03:31:38,600 --> 03:31:40,920
Speaker 12: in the door, I was grabbed by an officer and

4146
03:31:41,040 --> 03:31:43,320
Speaker 12: I said, what's going on? What's going on? He never

4147
03:31:43,400 --> 03:31:46,040
Speaker 12: actually told me. He said I was being detained, said

4148
03:31:46,080 --> 03:31:50,600
Speaker 12: Alicia Books. Neighbors like Ebony Watson, say they ducked for covers,

4149
03:31:50,680 --> 03:31:54,760
Speaker 12: they heard several flashbangs. They was terrified. The kids was crying.

4150
03:31:54,920 --> 03:31:58,600
Speaker 12: People was screaming. They looked very distraught. I was out

4151
03:31:58,640 --> 03:32:00,280
Speaker 12: there when I seen the little girl coming out around

4152
03:32:00,280 --> 03:32:02,480
Speaker 12: the corner because they was bringing the kids down too,

4153
03:32:02,959 --> 03:32:06,640
Speaker 12: had them zip tied to each other. Watson said, that's all.

4154
03:32:06,680 --> 03:32:10,000
Speaker 12: I kept asking, what is the morality? Where is the

4155
03:32:10,120 --> 03:32:14,000
Speaker 12: human One of them literally laughed he was standing right there,

4156
03:32:14,240 --> 03:32:18,600
Speaker 12: he said, fucking kids. So that is what these raids

4157
03:32:18,640 --> 03:32:21,000
Speaker 12: are looking like now. It is again also worth noting

4158
03:32:21,080 --> 03:32:23,720
Speaker 12: that like this is this is a very significant escalation

4159
03:32:23,840 --> 03:32:26,360
Speaker 12: of force. They are zip tying children to each other

4160
03:32:26,440 --> 03:32:27,960
Speaker 12: as they dragged them from their homes at one in

4161
03:32:28,000 --> 03:32:31,480
Speaker 12: the morning and saying fucking kids. Yeah, and this also

4162
03:32:31,680 --> 03:32:35,880
Speaker 12: marks what seems to be a pretty large pivot away

4163
03:32:36,120 --> 03:32:39,560
Speaker 12: from the areas they've been targeting before, which had to

4164
03:32:39,600 --> 03:32:42,119
Speaker 12: be the suburbs in the outlying areas, and into very

4165
03:32:42,360 --> 03:32:46,000
Speaker 12: very majority, the majority black parts of Chicago. And we're

4166
03:32:46,000 --> 03:32:49,760
Speaker 12: gonna talk more about this next week with journalists who's

4167
03:32:49,760 --> 03:32:52,240
Speaker 12: been on the ground. Yeah. I mean, for example, a

4168
03:32:52,280 --> 03:32:54,720
Speaker 12: couple of hours before we recorded this episode. So there

4169
03:32:54,800 --> 03:32:59,520
Speaker 12: are sparse details, but there is a video that shows

4170
03:32:59,600 --> 03:33:04,879
Speaker 12: the fat just two hands on neck choking a black

4171
03:33:04,959 --> 03:33:10,120
Speaker 12: man in East Garfield Park. It's deeply unclear why this

4172
03:33:10,320 --> 03:33:14,120
Speaker 12: is happening, but they are just doing this now, and

4173
03:33:15,120 --> 03:33:17,640
Speaker 12: what we have so far, we don't know why they

4174
03:33:17,680 --> 03:33:18,920
Speaker 12: were doing this. But this is also one thing I

4175
03:33:18,959 --> 03:33:21,760
Speaker 12: think is very alarming. This is also reported by Tribe.

4176
03:33:21,760 --> 03:33:24,080
Speaker 12: There is a video from the scene where an agent

4177
03:33:24,600 --> 03:33:27,040
Speaker 12: is recorded saying, just so you guys know, this is

4178
03:33:27,120 --> 03:33:30,080
Speaker 12: not an immigration enforcement action. The agent goes on to

4179
03:33:30,120 --> 03:33:33,480
Speaker 12: say they were responding to a robbery in progress. All

4180
03:33:33,560 --> 03:33:35,720
Speaker 12: we know about is there was a car crash and

4181
03:33:35,920 --> 03:33:39,640
Speaker 12: they just started choking this guy. It's unclear exactly what's

4182
03:33:39,680 --> 03:33:42,960
Speaker 12: going on with this. There probably will be more details

4183
03:33:42,959 --> 03:33:45,440
Speaker 12: by the time this episode is going out, But the

4184
03:33:45,520 --> 03:33:48,880
Speaker 12: Feds are just doing this stuff every day in Chicago,

4185
03:33:49,520 --> 03:33:52,160
Speaker 12: I mean, just randomly choking black people on the street.

4186
03:33:52,879 --> 03:33:56,959
Speaker 12: And this massive, hideous raid and sashore are pretty significant

4187
03:33:57,080 --> 03:34:00,600
Speaker 12: escalations in places that haven't been targeting before or and

4188
03:34:00,879 --> 03:34:03,760
Speaker 12: it's and it's hard to see this ending anytime soon

4189
03:34:04,160 --> 03:34:07,720
Speaker 12: or there you know, things getting any better from here,

4190
03:34:07,920 --> 03:34:11,360
Speaker 12: especially with the sort of you know, as you were

4191
03:34:11,400 --> 03:34:13,320
Speaker 12: mentioning earlier, there hasn't been really any sign of like

4192
03:34:13,360 --> 03:34:16,800
Speaker 12: an intensification in federal violence in Portland, but in Chicago

4193
03:34:17,920 --> 03:34:22,080
Speaker 12: there absolutely has been. And yeah, it's horrible.

4194
03:34:23,360 --> 03:34:26,680
Speaker 13: Yeah, So talking of intensification of federal activity, I guess

4195
03:34:27,080 --> 03:34:30,400
Speaker 13: according to a notice posted in the Federal Register, DHS

4196
03:34:30,600 --> 03:34:36,400
Speaker 13: is going to use the Cultural, Environmental and Historical Protection

4197
03:34:36,760 --> 03:34:39,360
Speaker 13: Waiver that we reported about that came out this spring

4198
03:34:40,000 --> 03:34:43,000
Speaker 13: to fall through wall construction in the San Diego sector.

4199
03:34:43,520 --> 03:34:48,920
Speaker 13: I am guessing that in part we will see this

4200
03:34:49,440 --> 03:34:52,400
Speaker 13: used to wave one of the one of the acts

4201
03:34:52,440 --> 03:34:55,080
Speaker 13: that is where it's the Native American Graves Protection and

4202
03:34:55,160 --> 03:34:59,680
Speaker 13: Repatriation Act. And I'm guessing in part that this will

4203
03:34:59,720 --> 03:35:04,160
Speaker 13: be used to waive that right because Kumei ancestors are

4204
03:35:04,240 --> 03:35:07,280
Speaker 13: in these areas and in at the end tail end

4205
03:35:07,320 --> 03:35:10,320
Speaker 13: of the previous Trump administration. I reported on this for Sierra,

4206
03:35:10,440 --> 03:35:13,440
Speaker 13: which is a magazine of the Sierra Club. Kumii people

4207
03:35:13,600 --> 03:35:17,160
Speaker 13: were using ceremony. So they were participating in ceremony every

4208
03:35:17,360 --> 03:35:22,760
Speaker 13: day at construction sites in order to slow down the clock,

4209
03:35:23,760 --> 03:35:26,120
Speaker 13: and they also filed a lawsuit. Right, But they were

4210
03:35:26,120 --> 03:35:28,119
Speaker 13: trying to basically run out the clock on the Trump administration.

4211
03:35:28,200 --> 03:35:33,120
Speaker 13: In twenty twenty, they successfully in some areas prevented some construction,

4212
03:35:33,400 --> 03:35:36,640
Speaker 13: but with the waiver of nagpray, it's hard to see

4213
03:35:37,040 --> 03:35:39,760
Speaker 13: how they will be able to do that. They also

4214
03:35:40,600 --> 03:35:43,600
Speaker 13: wave a bunch of other acts that Eagle Protection Act,

4215
03:35:43,680 --> 03:35:47,720
Speaker 13: Environmental microturt Bird Treatise, a bunch of other acts.

4216
03:35:47,840 --> 03:35:47,960
Speaker 7: Right.

4217
03:35:48,480 --> 03:35:51,800
Speaker 13: This comes on the same week as Secretary of War

4218
03:35:52,240 --> 03:35:57,360
Speaker 13: headthst restored medals of honor to soldiers at Wounded Knee.

4219
03:35:58,200 --> 03:36:00,720
Speaker 13: If people are not familiar, this is the episode where

4220
03:36:00,720 --> 03:36:02,560
Speaker 13: I do a history of things sort of happened at

4221
03:36:02,600 --> 03:36:05,880
Speaker 13: Wounded Ney Creek. But this was the largest mass shooting

4222
03:36:05,920 --> 03:36:06,640
Speaker 13: in US history.

4223
03:36:06,920 --> 03:36:07,840
Speaker 12: This was just a slaughter.

4224
03:36:08,160 --> 03:36:11,440
Speaker 13: Yeah, hundreds of unarmed Lacachas. Civilians were murdered by the

4225
03:36:11,600 --> 03:36:13,280
Speaker 13: United States military in the battle.

4226
03:36:13,360 --> 03:36:14,480
Speaker 12: This was just a massacre.

4227
03:36:14,720 --> 03:36:18,760
Speaker 13: There were significant casualties for the US military, most of

4228
03:36:18,840 --> 03:36:22,280
Speaker 13: them were caused by the US military, a friendly fire

4229
03:36:22,360 --> 03:36:26,040
Speaker 13: and a completely disorganized slaughter of civilians. There was a

4230
03:36:26,120 --> 03:36:29,200
Speaker 13: standoff at Wounded Ney later in the nineteen seventies in

4231
03:36:29,280 --> 03:36:32,720
Speaker 13: which two Indigenous people died one went missing. You can

4232
03:36:32,840 --> 03:36:35,760
Speaker 13: read Mary brave Bird's book about that if you want

4233
03:36:35,760 --> 03:36:38,560
Speaker 13: a first hand of cautfet. It's very good book. But yeah,

4234
03:36:38,720 --> 03:36:41,840
Speaker 13: Hegseth is doing this, I think because Lloyd Austin had

4235
03:36:41,840 --> 03:36:45,840
Speaker 13: previously ordered a review of those medals because they weren't fighting,

4236
03:36:46,440 --> 03:36:49,360
Speaker 13: they were just killing people. Therefore, it makes sense, you know,

4237
03:36:49,480 --> 03:36:52,320
Speaker 13: that led to to strip these these medals of honor,

4238
03:36:52,440 --> 03:36:54,480
Speaker 13: in that there was very little honor in what they did.

4239
03:36:54,800 --> 03:36:57,920
Speaker 13: Hegseth has restored those very amusingly. He said, this is final,

4240
03:36:58,120 --> 03:37:01,200
Speaker 13: like another sec def couldn't just order review like in

4241
03:37:01,320 --> 03:37:05,640
Speaker 13: four years and change it again. CBP has also issued

4242
03:37:05,640 --> 03:37:08,160
Speaker 13: a request for comments here in San Diego about its

4243
03:37:08,200 --> 03:37:11,440
Speaker 13: plans to build seven point six miles of wall west

4244
03:37:11,480 --> 03:37:14,360
Speaker 13: of Dakat, as well as one point three miles of

4245
03:37:14,440 --> 03:37:17,920
Speaker 13: wall east of Dakat, more secondary barrier east of O

4246
03:37:18,080 --> 03:37:22,640
Speaker 13: tim Mesa, and install or maintain fifty one miles of

4247
03:37:22,800 --> 03:37:26,840
Speaker 13: quote barrier system attributes, which may include fiber uptic cables,

4248
03:37:26,959 --> 03:37:31,040
Speaker 13: lighting poles, artificial lights, power cables, surveillance cameras, access and

4249
03:37:31,120 --> 03:37:35,920
Speaker 13: patrol roads, and utility shelters. What this would do. I

4250
03:37:36,000 --> 03:37:37,920
Speaker 13: think most people who haven't spent time at the border

4251
03:37:37,920 --> 03:37:40,040
Speaker 13: in not aware that there are vast gaps in the

4252
03:37:40,120 --> 03:37:44,119
Speaker 13: border wall right, and this would close some of those.

4253
03:37:44,440 --> 03:37:47,920
Speaker 13: There are still gaps east of this area. When a

4254
03:37:47,959 --> 03:37:49,680
Speaker 13: lot of people were entering in twenty twenty three, they

4255
03:37:49,720 --> 03:37:52,280
Speaker 13: were coming east of here in a more mountainous area.

4256
03:37:52,640 --> 03:37:56,600
Speaker 13: But this will close existing gaps in the wall around Takata,

4257
03:37:56,640 --> 03:38:00,400
Speaker 13: around Marin Valley. I imagine that after that they will

4258
03:38:00,440 --> 03:38:04,199
Speaker 13: continue to move east the areas where there are gaps.

4259
03:38:04,640 --> 03:38:06,040
Speaker 13: Some of the areas where their gaps, for the rest

4260
03:38:06,040 --> 03:38:08,480
Speaker 13: aren't that hard to access. Some of them would be

4261
03:38:08,720 --> 03:38:13,160
Speaker 13: very hard to access with construction machinery, and therefore they'd

4262
03:38:13,200 --> 03:38:15,160
Speaker 13: have to spend a long time building a road before

4263
03:38:15,160 --> 03:38:19,920
Speaker 13: they could even begin building the wall. Reuters has conducted

4264
03:38:20,000 --> 03:38:23,200
Speaker 13: a review of more than two million court records and

4265
03:38:23,400 --> 03:38:27,000
Speaker 13: concluded that federal prosecution of drug cases, especially those of

4266
03:38:27,080 --> 03:38:31,800
Speaker 13: high profile traffickers, have dropped to the lowest level in decades.

4267
03:38:32,120 --> 03:38:35,959
Speaker 13: Fell forward again a Ward, Yeah, yeah, I mean normally

4268
03:38:36,080 --> 03:38:40,880
Speaker 13: you would see things like racketeering, money laundering, conspiracy charges, right,

4269
03:38:41,200 --> 03:38:43,440
Speaker 13: but these are down twenty four percent compared to last year.

4270
03:38:44,080 --> 03:38:48,039
Speaker 13: Even ongoing investigations have stalled as a federal law enforcement

4271
03:38:48,080 --> 03:38:51,200
Speaker 13: apparatus is focusing the vast majority of its people on

4272
03:38:51,360 --> 03:38:53,640
Speaker 13: deporting people who have not been accused of any crime.

4273
03:38:53,920 --> 03:38:56,440
Speaker 17: Really, and even just like the regular FBI investigative capacity,

4274
03:38:56,440 --> 03:39:00,600
Speaker 17: it has been shifted massive large extents towards just immigration enforcement.

4275
03:39:00,959 --> 03:39:03,880
Speaker 17: So they're not they're actually just not going after as

4276
03:39:03,959 --> 03:39:05,320
Speaker 17: much like actual crime.

4277
03:39:06,280 --> 03:39:06,480
Speaker 8: Yeah.

4278
03:39:06,560 --> 03:39:09,960
Speaker 13: I think some agencies, like the Bureau of Alcohol to

4279
03:39:10,040 --> 03:39:12,200
Speaker 13: Back of Firearms and Explosive for example, I think have

4280
03:39:12,320 --> 03:39:17,040
Speaker 13: the majority of their agents tasked to immigration raids right now.

4281
03:39:17,240 --> 03:39:20,560
Speaker 13: The FBI one agent described what he had been tasked

4282
03:39:20,600 --> 03:39:25,959
Speaker 13: with as quote photo op bullshit, which was taking photos

4283
03:39:26,000 --> 03:39:28,480
Speaker 13: of their teams on and before raids for use by

4284
03:39:28,560 --> 03:39:32,000
Speaker 13: the ADF and the White House in social media posts.

4285
03:39:33,160 --> 03:39:35,920
Speaker 13: So they do appear to have I've lost the support

4286
03:39:36,000 --> 03:39:40,240
Speaker 13: of even some federal law enforcement. Talking of federal law enforcement,

4287
03:39:40,520 --> 03:39:43,400
Speaker 13: we have also learned this week about an FBI operation

4288
03:39:43,520 --> 03:39:47,640
Speaker 13: during the Biden administration during which Tom Homan allegedly accepted

4289
03:39:47,720 --> 03:39:51,720
Speaker 13: fifty thousand dollars in cash. What you didn't hear about

4290
03:39:51,720 --> 03:39:58,360
Speaker 13: the Tom Homan back? What a joy to be able

4291
03:39:58,400 --> 03:40:00,840
Speaker 13: to share this with You tell me going to get better?

4292
03:40:01,000 --> 03:40:05,160
Speaker 13: Just just keep it, keep sim adown a Simma down,

4293
03:40:06,600 --> 03:40:10,560
Speaker 13: Sima down, Sima down. So Tom Homan, for those who

4294
03:40:10,560 --> 03:40:13,520
Speaker 13: are not familiar, is Trump's borders are and a longtime

4295
03:40:13,560 --> 03:40:16,879
Speaker 13: border security official dating back to the biad administration. Let's

4296
03:40:16,920 --> 03:40:19,800
Speaker 13: find out about how they got on to Tom Homan.

4297
03:40:21,120 --> 03:40:23,160
Speaker 12: Said that there was fifty do dollars in cash, but.

4298
03:40:23,600 --> 03:40:28,040
Speaker 13: For what Just wait, wait, wait, wait wait another Obama

4299
03:40:28,200 --> 03:40:32,400
Speaker 13: era I stuffer. Julian Calderas, who agents undercover agents had

4300
03:40:32,440 --> 03:40:36,240
Speaker 13: contacted as part of a separate investigation, repeatedly suggested to

4301
03:40:36,320 --> 03:40:39,040
Speaker 13: the agents that they may wish to bribe Homan in

4302
03:40:39,200 --> 03:40:45,080
Speaker 13: order to obtain government contracts. Cayl Deris repeatedly suggested this

4303
03:40:45,200 --> 03:40:48,959
Speaker 13: to the undercover agents, so much so that they diverted

4304
03:40:48,959 --> 03:40:52,800
Speaker 13: their investigation and set up this investigation. They gave home

4305
03:40:52,840 --> 03:40:55,680
Speaker 13: and the money, but waited to see what he would

4306
03:40:55,879 --> 03:40:59,680
Speaker 13: do in office in order to see I guess they

4307
03:40:59,720 --> 03:41:01,879
Speaker 13: felt would have a stronger case if he came back

4308
03:41:01,879 --> 03:41:03,360
Speaker 13: to them and said, you know, I have these five

4309
03:41:03,440 --> 03:41:06,600
Speaker 13: federal contracts, which one would you like? The Trump DOJ

4310
03:41:06,760 --> 03:41:10,480
Speaker 13: took no further steps to investigate and has closed the investigation.

4311
03:41:10,560 --> 03:41:13,600
Speaker 13: According to NBC, the Trump administration is claiming this was

4312
03:41:13,640 --> 03:41:16,040
Speaker 13: a set up by the FBI. But of course the

4313
03:41:16,080 --> 03:41:20,840
Speaker 13: investigation occurred in September of twenty four, so before the election. Again,

4314
03:41:20,920 --> 03:41:23,160
Speaker 13: it was not an investigation that they started on. It

4315
03:41:23,280 --> 03:41:27,879
Speaker 13: branched off because Carderus repeatedly suggested that they should continue

4316
03:41:27,920 --> 03:41:32,720
Speaker 13: to they should try and bribe home. The agents who

4317
03:41:32,800 --> 03:41:35,400
Speaker 13: did this operation were posing as businessman trying to get

4318
03:41:35,480 --> 03:41:40,280
Speaker 13: government contracts. Right, This might explain so Homan was a

4319
03:41:40,320 --> 03:41:43,960
Speaker 13: big time Trump affiliate, right, big time Trump supporting people

4320
03:41:44,000 --> 03:41:48,200
Speaker 13: were suggesting that he might be made Secretary of Homeland Security.

4321
03:41:49,080 --> 03:41:52,360
Speaker 13: This might be why we will never know official right,

4322
03:41:52,720 --> 03:41:55,120
Speaker 13: This might explain why he's been given a slightly less

4323
03:41:55,200 --> 03:41:58,160
Speaker 13: formal role which I don't believe he has to pass

4324
03:41:58,200 --> 03:42:00,320
Speaker 13: through Congress, which is quite unquote border CZA.

4325
03:42:01,080 --> 03:42:05,480
Speaker 17: This is like the level of normalized corruption which exists

4326
03:42:05,520 --> 03:42:09,360
Speaker 17: in every level of this administration is like remember when

4327
03:42:09,560 --> 03:42:12,040
Speaker 17: they just could not stop talking about Hunter hide In.

4328
03:42:12,120 --> 03:42:15,600
Speaker 17: It's like every all the time. And meanwhile you have like,

4329
03:42:16,000 --> 03:42:18,200
Speaker 17: like you know, like all of like Jared Kushner's dealings

4330
03:42:18,240 --> 03:42:22,280
Speaker 17: with like Saudi. Is the Tomhoman getting fifty thousand dollars

4331
03:42:22,920 --> 03:42:26,520
Speaker 17: in cash, Yeah, like undercover and he's just posing us

4332
03:42:26,560 --> 03:42:30,440
Speaker 17: businessman to help obtain like government contracts. It's like an

4333
03:42:30,480 --> 03:42:33,040
Speaker 17: absurd comical cartoon world.

4334
03:42:33,240 --> 03:42:35,360
Speaker 13: So it's Keystone cop shit. We don't know if he's

4335
03:42:35,400 --> 03:42:36,440
Speaker 13: given the cash back.

4336
03:42:36,840 --> 03:42:42,640
Speaker 12: Oh that cash is oh god, so much cocaine. Like

4337
03:42:43,480 --> 03:42:47,400
Speaker 12: I could either confirm her today it was spent on cocaine. Yeah,

4338
03:42:47,520 --> 03:42:49,400
Speaker 12: a wild instance of corruption. Oh God.

4339
03:42:50,440 --> 03:42:54,120
Speaker 13: Finally, I want to talk about Venezuela. In Venezuela, it

4340
03:42:54,160 --> 03:42:56,640
Speaker 13: seems that Stephen Miller has been taking the lead on

4341
03:42:56,760 --> 03:42:59,680
Speaker 13: strikes on a leged drug smugglers. According to a Guardian piece,

4342
03:43:00,040 --> 03:43:03,560
Speaker 13: the strikes have been authorized by the Homeland Security count. Sure,

4343
03:43:04,160 --> 03:43:07,000
Speaker 13: that's a body that Miller leaves, which has massively grown

4344
03:43:07,040 --> 03:43:10,680
Speaker 13: and influence since the Trump administration. It seems like most

4345
03:43:10,720 --> 03:43:12,760
Speaker 13: people in the administration were pretty much kept in the

4346
03:43:12,879 --> 03:43:17,640
Speaker 13: dark about this until very shortly before the strike took place.

4347
03:43:18,400 --> 03:43:21,120
Speaker 13: They were just fined under the Article two Powers, which

4348
03:43:21,200 --> 03:43:23,440
Speaker 13: give the president authority to use force in limited self

4349
03:43:23,480 --> 03:43:27,920
Speaker 13: defense engagements. But it seems like Miller is pardoned the

4350
03:43:27,959 --> 03:43:32,119
Speaker 13: pun driving the ship on this increased violence that we're

4351
03:43:32,120 --> 03:43:33,200
Speaker 13: seeing against Venezuela.

4352
03:43:45,879 --> 03:43:50,480
Speaker 17: All right, br back for our final story this episode,

4353
03:43:50,560 --> 03:43:56,520
Speaker 17: We're going to talk about the National Security Presidential Memorandums

4354
03:43:56,680 --> 03:44:02,920
Speaker 17: number seven, titled Countering Domestic Terrorism and Organized Political Violence,

4355
03:44:03,600 --> 03:44:06,640
Speaker 17: which was signed by President Donald Trump on Thursday, September

4356
03:44:06,800 --> 03:44:12,200
Speaker 17: twenty fifth. This relates in many ways to the Antifa

4357
03:44:12,480 --> 03:44:15,920
Speaker 17: Domestic Terrorism Executive Order from last week, but this memo

4358
03:44:16,000 --> 03:44:19,520
Speaker 17: is a lot more clear in outlining actual policy changes

4359
03:44:19,840 --> 03:44:23,680
Speaker 17: that will affect law enforcement investigations. So let's go over

4360
03:44:24,360 --> 03:44:28,280
Speaker 17: the four sections of this very, very long memo. I've

4361
03:44:28,320 --> 03:44:30,200
Speaker 17: tried to condense it down as much as possible, but

4362
03:44:30,400 --> 03:44:31,959
Speaker 17: there is some good information in here too.

4363
03:44:32,080 --> 03:44:32,240
Speaker 10: Now.

4364
03:44:32,640 --> 03:44:35,520
Speaker 17: Section one asserts that there's been an increase in political

4365
03:44:35,600 --> 03:44:39,160
Speaker 17: violence in recent years, with assassinations and quote unquote riots

4366
03:44:39,200 --> 03:44:41,960
Speaker 17: in Los Angeles and Portland, which have resulted into more

4367
03:44:42,000 --> 03:44:45,280
Speaker 17: than one thousand percent increase in attacks against ice officers

4368
03:44:45,320 --> 03:44:48,560
Speaker 17: since Trump's inauguration two point zero. The memo states that

4369
03:44:48,720 --> 03:44:52,880
Speaker 17: riots and violence aren't organic events or isolated incidents, but

4370
03:44:53,000 --> 03:44:57,800
Speaker 17: in fact, quote a culmination of a sophisticated organized campaigns

4371
03:44:58,240 --> 03:45:01,560
Speaker 17: of targeted intimidation, radical threats and violence design to silence

4372
03:45:01,560 --> 03:45:05,119
Speaker 17: of posting speech, limit political activity, change or direct policy outcomes,

4373
03:45:05,320 --> 03:45:08,519
Speaker 17: and prevent the functioning of a democratic society.

4374
03:45:09,120 --> 03:45:09,480
Speaker 12: Quote.

4375
03:45:10,080 --> 03:45:13,320
Speaker 13: We've spoken about the statistic about attacks and ice officers

4376
03:45:13,360 --> 03:45:15,080
Speaker 13: before and how that's very misleading.

4377
03:45:15,760 --> 03:45:18,280
Speaker 17: Yeah, I mean an ICE officer is attacked when of

4378
03:45:18,840 --> 03:45:24,480
Speaker 17: ice officer's fist encounters the face of a child, Right, that's.

4379
03:45:24,160 --> 03:45:29,040
Speaker 13: Yeah, Latino grandmother, Yes, uh, Latina grandmother in that case.

4380
03:45:29,360 --> 03:45:31,920
Speaker 17: Well, and a lot of this talking about, you know,

4381
03:45:32,160 --> 03:45:34,560
Speaker 17: riots is not organized events or us at an incidents.

4382
03:45:34,600 --> 03:45:37,040
Speaker 17: What they describe here is this like a culmination of

4383
03:45:37,080 --> 03:45:40,600
Speaker 17: the sophisticated campaign. This is just describing like the process

4384
03:45:40,760 --> 03:45:43,600
Speaker 17: of like what protesting is, right, trying to direct or

4385
03:45:43,760 --> 03:45:46,680
Speaker 17: change policy outcomes, which comes up a lot in these

4386
03:45:46,720 --> 03:45:49,880
Speaker 17: like domestic terrorism laws, which when over applied to just

4387
03:45:50,080 --> 03:45:54,760
Speaker 17: nonviolent acts of speech, just start infringing upon very standard

4388
03:45:54,800 --> 03:45:55,760
Speaker 17: First Amendment activity.

4389
03:45:55,800 --> 03:45:58,600
Speaker 13: It's one of the five fundamental freedoms of the First Amendment.

4390
03:45:58,720 --> 03:46:00,600
Speaker 13: Right like the right to assemble the it was several

4391
03:46:00,640 --> 03:46:02,440
Speaker 13: of them, actually, the right to assemble, the right to speak,

4392
03:46:02,440 --> 03:46:05,120
Speaker 13: the right to petition the government like these are fundamental.

4393
03:46:05,240 --> 03:46:07,640
Speaker 17: The right to twitch stream at a riot as a

4394
03:46:07,720 --> 03:46:08,840
Speaker 17: free member of the press.

4395
03:46:08,879 --> 03:46:12,280
Speaker 13: Yeah, definitely, that's not a right that I choose to exercise,

4396
03:46:12,400 --> 03:46:15,520
Speaker 13: but I guess it is one that exists. But you

4397
03:46:15,640 --> 03:46:17,200
Speaker 13: and I have you were important and I was in

4398
03:46:17,280 --> 03:46:20,119
Speaker 13: Los Angeles. Like the idea that these cities were fundamentally

4399
03:46:20,240 --> 03:46:22,640
Speaker 13: like damaged by these protests, it's just not true.

4400
03:46:22,920 --> 03:46:25,440
Speaker 17: Well, and they're not just talking about damage from riots,

4401
03:46:25,640 --> 03:46:29,320
Speaker 17: they're also talking about, you know, effects on individual citizens.

4402
03:46:29,440 --> 03:46:32,720
Speaker 17: This memo describes how these you know, organized campaigns start

4403
03:46:32,800 --> 03:46:37,200
Speaker 17: by quote isolating and dehumanizing specific targets to justify murder

4404
03:46:37,440 --> 03:46:41,640
Speaker 17: or other violent action unquote, claiming that this process happens

4405
03:46:41,680 --> 03:46:46,440
Speaker 17: across quote anonymous chat forums, in person meetings, the social media,

4406
03:46:46,520 --> 03:46:50,359
Speaker 17: and even educational institutions. These campaigns then escalate to organized

4407
03:46:50,400 --> 03:46:54,279
Speaker 17: docsing with the explicit intent of encouraging others to harass, intimidate,

4408
03:46:54,600 --> 03:46:57,200
Speaker 17: or violently assault targets en quote.

4409
03:46:57,959 --> 03:47:01,640
Speaker 13: I mean, this is what the Right has done to

4410
03:47:02,320 --> 03:47:06,520
Speaker 13: like exp especially migrants and trand people right for for

4411
03:47:06,560 --> 03:47:09,800
Speaker 13: a very long time. Anonymous chat forums And do they

4412
03:47:09,879 --> 03:47:15,080
Speaker 13: mean a Reddit credits telegram maybe, yeah, I know, I

4413
03:47:15,200 --> 03:47:20,240
Speaker 13: know that some subreddits have been closed since the issuing

4414
03:47:20,320 --> 03:47:25,640
Speaker 13: of this memorandum, which I'm wondering if it is related.

4415
03:47:25,600 --> 03:47:27,880
Speaker 17: Not explicitly, but like I think this memos would be

4416
03:47:28,240 --> 03:47:30,400
Speaker 17: in this section like referring to things I can't to

4417
03:47:30,760 --> 03:47:32,720
Speaker 17: ice watch, Okay, yeah, yeah, that makes a lot of

4418
03:47:32,800 --> 03:47:35,520
Speaker 17: sense as well as you know standard like you know,

4419
03:47:35,760 --> 03:47:40,280
Speaker 17: anti fasted action against like legitimate neo Nazis, which yeah,

4420
03:47:40,560 --> 03:47:43,359
Speaker 17: the Right is not against a doxing as a practice,

4421
03:47:43,360 --> 03:47:46,040
Speaker 17: as we have seen a few weeks with the state

4422
03:47:46,080 --> 03:47:50,560
Speaker 17: sponsored organized doxing harassment campaigns against people for their comments

4423
03:47:51,080 --> 03:47:52,480
Speaker 17: about the death of Charlie Kirk.

4424
03:47:53,000 --> 03:47:53,200
Speaker 5: Yeah.

4425
03:47:53,480 --> 03:47:55,440
Speaker 17: The memo goes on to list a collection of quote

4426
03:47:55,520 --> 03:48:00,720
Speaker 17: common recurrent motivations and indica or indicators that unite this

4427
03:48:00,840 --> 03:48:03,920
Speaker 17: pattern of violence and terroristic activities under the umbrella of

4428
03:48:04,080 --> 03:48:10,080
Speaker 17: self described anti fascism. These movements portray foundational American principles

4429
03:48:10,120 --> 03:48:13,720
Speaker 17: support for law enforcement and border control as fascist to

4430
03:48:13,959 --> 03:48:18,000
Speaker 17: justify and encourage acts of a violent revolution common threads

4431
03:48:18,160 --> 03:48:24,640
Speaker 17: animating this violent conduct include anti Americanism, anti capitalism, anti Christianity,

4432
03:48:25,000 --> 03:48:27,520
Speaker 17: support for the overthrow of the United States government, extremism

4433
03:48:27,600 --> 03:48:31,360
Speaker 17: on migration, race and gender, and hostility towards those who

4434
03:48:31,480 --> 03:48:36,840
Speaker 17: hold traditional American views on family, religion, and morality. So

4435
03:48:36,959 --> 03:48:39,000
Speaker 17: in so far as this memo has been reported, it's

4436
03:48:39,040 --> 03:48:44,679
Speaker 17: mostly been on this specific section here, listing the indicators

4437
03:48:45,560 --> 03:48:48,880
Speaker 17: that could be driving terroristic acts under the umbrella of

4438
03:48:49,040 --> 03:48:53,000
Speaker 17: anti fascism, including all of these beliefs that people are

4439
03:48:53,320 --> 03:48:56,200
Speaker 17: allowed to hold in the United States due to the

4440
03:48:56,440 --> 03:48:58,040
Speaker 17: rights granted to us and the Bill of Rights in

4441
03:48:58,040 --> 03:48:58,560
Speaker 17: the Constitution.

4442
03:48:58,920 --> 03:49:01,760
Speaker 13: Yeah, I mean that the hypocrisy is the point, and

4443
03:49:01,800 --> 03:49:03,480
Speaker 13: it's sometimes not worth it. It's not a point, but

4444
03:49:03,840 --> 03:49:05,920
Speaker 13: it's not particularly you know, it doesn't change anything I'm

4445
03:49:05,920 --> 03:49:07,360
Speaker 13: pointing out, But I will just point out that like

4446
03:49:07,440 --> 03:49:11,080
Speaker 13: the idea that border control is a foundational American principle

4447
03:49:11,200 --> 03:49:13,720
Speaker 13: is not true. That it was not until the Chinese

4448
03:49:13,800 --> 03:49:16,840
Speaker 13: Exclusion Act that the United States began to exclude anyone

4449
03:49:17,240 --> 03:49:19,320
Speaker 13: from coming here, and that was in the nineteenth century.

4450
03:49:19,640 --> 03:49:24,080
Speaker 13: History understanders will have noticed that the United States began

4451
03:49:24,160 --> 03:49:27,320
Speaker 13: at some point before the nineteenth century.

4452
03:49:27,600 --> 03:49:30,920
Speaker 17: One thing I will say regarding like this section, some

4453
03:49:31,280 --> 03:49:34,080
Speaker 17: reporting around this memo is framing things like you know,

4454
03:49:34,480 --> 03:49:37,480
Speaker 17: anti capitalism or anti Christianity is now that is going

4455
03:49:37,520 --> 03:49:40,240
Speaker 17: to be used as evidence that you are a terrorist.

4456
03:49:41,120 --> 03:49:43,800
Speaker 17: That is not the explicit way is written about in

4457
03:49:44,000 --> 03:49:48,120
Speaker 17: this memo. These are indicators which if some investigator sees

4458
03:49:48,200 --> 03:49:51,440
Speaker 17: on a Twitter account or a blue Sky account, could

4459
03:49:51,480 --> 03:49:54,560
Speaker 17: then cause them to investigate further into this person or group.

4460
03:49:55,200 --> 03:49:58,720
Speaker 17: But it's not like just expressing these things will itself

4461
03:49:59,320 --> 03:50:02,040
Speaker 17: deem you terrorist and be putting you in jail.

4462
03:50:02,080 --> 03:50:04,520
Speaker 12: And this does rely on action.

4463
03:50:04,880 --> 03:50:06,720
Speaker 17: Now, the memo does go on to talk about trying

4464
03:50:06,720 --> 03:50:10,320
Speaker 17: to prevent crime before it happens. I think this would

4465
03:50:10,320 --> 03:50:12,400
Speaker 17: be more in the way of how the FBI tries

4466
03:50:12,480 --> 03:50:15,240
Speaker 17: to set up like sting operations or catch people who

4467
03:50:15,280 --> 03:50:18,520
Speaker 17: are planning a violent act before they actually do it,

4468
03:50:19,160 --> 03:50:21,200
Speaker 17: as we've even seen the past few weeks with people

4469
03:50:21,240 --> 03:50:26,640
Speaker 17: being arrested for planning retaliation attacks following the death of

4470
03:50:26,720 --> 03:50:27,320
Speaker 17: Charlie Kirk.

4471
03:50:27,480 --> 03:50:29,720
Speaker 12: This has happened now.

4472
03:50:29,840 --> 03:50:33,440
Speaker 17: The memo calls for a new national law enforcement strategy

4473
03:50:33,480 --> 03:50:37,320
Speaker 17: to quote investigate all participants in these criminal and terroristic

4474
03:50:37,480 --> 03:50:42,680
Speaker 17: conspiracies and disrupt networks, entities and organizations that foment political violence,

4475
03:50:42,680 --> 03:50:46,840
Speaker 17: so that law enforcement can intervene in criminal conspiracies before

4476
03:50:46,960 --> 03:50:50,880
Speaker 17: they result in violent political acts unquote. So that is

4477
03:50:51,000 --> 03:50:55,200
Speaker 17: the pre crime aspect of this order, which they could

4478
03:50:55,360 --> 03:50:59,200
Speaker 17: use some of these beliefs like extremism on migration or

4479
03:50:59,520 --> 03:51:03,760
Speaker 17: race or gender, or anti americanism as justification to start

4480
03:51:03,880 --> 03:51:09,120
Speaker 17: investigating groups, which then arrests could follow prior to imminent

4481
03:51:09,320 --> 03:51:12,520
Speaker 17: violent act as deemed by federal law enforcement.

4482
03:51:13,120 --> 03:51:13,320
Speaker 5: Yeah.

4483
03:51:13,560 --> 03:51:16,360
Speaker 13: I mean, in theory, the role of the effectially federal

4484
03:51:16,440 --> 03:51:19,320
Speaker 13: law enforcement has always been to investigate people who were

4485
03:51:19,360 --> 03:51:23,000
Speaker 13: planning violent or terroristic acts. The difference here is that

4486
03:51:23,080 --> 03:51:26,720
Speaker 13: this is being specifically framed around a certain group, and

4487
03:51:27,040 --> 03:51:30,440
Speaker 13: this probably will lead to more attempts by their more

4488
03:51:30,560 --> 03:51:33,600
Speaker 13: surveillance on people within exactly groups.

4489
03:51:33,720 --> 03:51:37,080
Speaker 17: Right now, this is very worrying in terms of like surveillance,

4490
03:51:37,320 --> 03:51:41,040
Speaker 17: suppressing speech, chilling speech, because what they're qualifying as violent

4491
03:51:41,120 --> 03:51:44,400
Speaker 17: or terroristic acts is just ordinary protest activity first, mental

4492
03:51:44,400 --> 03:51:50,440
Speaker 17: protest activity, non government organizations that support progressive causes or values.

4493
03:51:51,120 --> 03:51:53,280
Speaker 17: That's the real concern here.

4494
03:51:53,600 --> 03:51:57,560
Speaker 13: It's worth stating here that in Los Angeles, for example,

4495
03:51:57,600 --> 03:52:00,720
Speaker 13: a number of grandeuries did not return indictment of people

4496
03:52:00,760 --> 03:52:04,760
Speaker 13: who were accused of quite serious crimes that the grand

4497
03:52:04,840 --> 03:52:07,240
Speaker 13: jury did not think it was reasonable to indict them

4498
03:52:07,280 --> 03:52:11,800
Speaker 13: for right. This is unusual. Most federal prosecutions do result

4499
03:52:11,960 --> 03:52:14,200
Speaker 13: ultimately in a guilty plea right because they bring very

4500
03:52:14,240 --> 03:52:17,480
Speaker 13: strong cases when they bring them that It's worth noting

4501
03:52:17,560 --> 03:52:22,360
Speaker 13: that the specifically, like the US Attorney's Office in Los Angeles,

4502
03:52:22,520 --> 03:52:24,360
Speaker 13: has not struck the landing on all of its attempts

4503
03:52:24,400 --> 03:52:27,040
Speaker 13: to indict people for things that they did during that

4504
03:52:27,160 --> 03:52:28,440
Speaker 13: time of protest in June.

4505
03:52:29,120 --> 03:52:32,880
Speaker 17: In terms of like implementation, the memo says, quote, law

4506
03:52:32,960 --> 03:52:37,880
Speaker 17: enforcement will disband and uproot networks, entities and organizations that

4507
03:52:38,080 --> 03:52:42,680
Speaker 17: promote organized violence, violent intimidation, conspiracies against rights, and other

4508
03:52:43,040 --> 03:52:48,600
Speaker 17: efforts to disrupt the functioning of a democratic society unquote networks,

4509
03:52:48,960 --> 03:52:54,640
Speaker 17: entities organizations. These refer to like established organizations like actual

4510
03:52:54,840 --> 03:52:58,240
Speaker 17: like formed groups that have political activity.

4511
03:52:59,120 --> 03:52:59,240
Speaker 14: Now.

4512
03:52:59,360 --> 03:53:02,960
Speaker 17: Section two lines how the National Joint Terrorism Task Force

4513
03:53:03,280 --> 03:53:08,360
Speaker 17: will quote unquote coordinate and supervise a new comprehensive national

4514
03:53:08,440 --> 03:53:12,400
Speaker 17: strategy and orders the local Joint Terrorism Task Force around

4515
03:53:12,440 --> 03:53:17,040
Speaker 17: the country to quote investigate potential federal crimes relating to

4516
03:53:17,160 --> 03:53:20,720
Speaker 17: acts of recruiting or radicalizing persons for the purpose of

4517
03:53:21,160 --> 03:53:24,880
Speaker 17: political violence, terrorism, conspiracy against rights, or the violent deprivation

4518
03:53:25,320 --> 03:53:30,960
Speaker 17: of any citizens' rights unquote. The GDTFS Joint Terrorism Task

4519
03:53:31,040 --> 03:53:36,960
Speaker 17: Force will also investigate institutional and individual funders, including employees

4520
03:53:37,000 --> 03:53:41,600
Speaker 17: of organizations which are quote responsible for sponsor or otherwise

4521
03:53:41,640 --> 03:53:44,400
Speaker 17: the AID and EVET the principal actors engaging in the

4522
03:53:44,520 --> 03:53:50,520
Speaker 17: criminal conduct as previously described. That's a broadet, right, There's

4523
03:53:50,520 --> 03:53:52,320
Speaker 17: a lot of this stuff, Like the Anti for Order

4524
03:53:52,320 --> 03:53:54,720
Speaker 17: also alluded to this. Trump's statements made in the Oval

4525
03:53:54,720 --> 03:53:58,920
Speaker 17: Office have alluded to this going after funders, foreign funders,

4526
03:53:59,000 --> 03:54:02,960
Speaker 17: whether that's the groups like the ACLU or like bail funds.

4527
03:54:03,720 --> 03:54:08,280
Speaker 17: They mentioned George sorows very often. Yeah, the Open Society Foundation, right, Yeah.

4528
03:54:08,560 --> 03:54:11,120
Speaker 13: I think the right has had a fascination with sorrows

4529
03:54:11,120 --> 03:54:13,160
Speaker 13: for a long time. Right, They've been looking for a

4530
03:54:13,400 --> 03:54:17,280
Speaker 13: reason to either exclude sorrows from participation in US politics

4531
03:54:17,320 --> 03:54:19,480
Speaker 13: and just to be like obviously I think most people

4532
03:54:19,560 --> 03:54:22,880
Speaker 13: realize this, but that that fascination is rooted deeply in antisemitism.

4533
03:54:23,000 --> 03:54:26,480
Speaker 13: George Soros is a Holocaust survivor, and there has been

4534
03:54:26,600 --> 03:54:30,320
Speaker 13: like an attempt to find reasons to exclude sorrows from

4535
03:54:30,360 --> 03:54:33,200
Speaker 13: from US political activity for some time. I think it's

4536
03:54:33,240 --> 03:54:34,520
Speaker 13: reasonable to see this in that trend.

4537
03:54:35,120 --> 03:54:37,960
Speaker 17: This sort of like big organizations foreign organizations is also

4538
03:54:38,000 --> 03:54:40,720
Speaker 17: mentioned in this memo and saying the investigation will include

4539
03:54:41,080 --> 03:54:45,560
Speaker 17: NGOs and American citizens with foreign ties that could be

4540
03:54:45,680 --> 03:54:49,160
Speaker 17: in violation of the Foreign Agents Registration Act or quote

4541
03:54:49,400 --> 03:54:52,440
Speaker 17: money laundering by funding, creating, or supporting entities that engage

4542
03:54:52,440 --> 03:54:56,400
Speaker 17: in activities that support or courage domestic terrorism unquote. The

4543
03:54:56,480 --> 03:55:00,200
Speaker 17: memo states that the Attorney General shall issue guidance which

4544
03:55:00,280 --> 03:55:05,240
Speaker 17: ensures that domestic terrorism priorities include quote politically motivated terrorist

4545
03:55:05,400 --> 03:55:12,720
Speaker 17: acts such as organized doxing campaigns, swatting, rioting, looting, trespass, assault,

4546
03:55:12,960 --> 03:55:16,320
Speaker 17: damage of property, threats of violence, and civil disorder. The

4547
03:55:16,360 --> 03:55:20,080
Speaker 17: guides shall also include an identification of any behaviors, fact patterns,

4548
03:55:20,160 --> 03:55:24,360
Speaker 17: recurrent motivations, or other indica common to organizations and entities

4549
03:55:24,360 --> 03:55:26,520
Speaker 17: that coordinate these acts, in order to direct efforts to

4550
03:55:26,560 --> 03:55:28,560
Speaker 17: identify and prevent potential violent activity.

4551
03:55:28,640 --> 03:55:29,000
Speaker 7: Unquote.

4552
03:55:29,800 --> 03:55:31,680
Speaker 17: This is a worrying list of things that are not

4553
03:55:31,800 --> 03:55:34,320
Speaker 17: domestic terrorism that they're going to try to claim our

4554
03:55:34,480 --> 03:55:40,640
Speaker 17: domestic terrorism trespass. Yeah, like trespassing is now domestic terrorism.

4555
03:55:41,240 --> 03:55:43,480
Speaker 17: That's not a great thing for the Attorney General to

4556
03:55:43,520 --> 03:55:46,760
Speaker 17: be issuing guidance on. Yeah, civil disorder is a very

4557
03:55:47,000 --> 03:55:51,080
Speaker 17: broad and somewhat nebulous term, right, Like, are they gonna

4558
03:55:51,240 --> 03:55:54,640
Speaker 17: call the organized doxing campaigns that the right is doing

4559
03:55:54,760 --> 03:55:58,120
Speaker 17: right now domestic terrorism? No, of course not right, These

4560
03:55:58,160 --> 03:56:02,240
Speaker 17: things are just taking form for explicit like political prosecution,

4561
03:56:02,960 --> 03:56:04,840
Speaker 17: for the political ends of Trump administration.

4562
03:56:05,360 --> 03:56:06,760
Speaker 13: I think the goal here, like some of these are

4563
03:56:06,760 --> 03:56:08,600
Speaker 13: reason even a statue, right, Like, I'm not aware of

4564
03:56:08,920 --> 03:56:13,960
Speaker 13: a broad federal doxing statute aside from certain specific instances

4565
03:56:14,000 --> 03:56:16,200
Speaker 13: where it might be a crime to reveal someone's address.

4566
03:56:16,920 --> 03:56:20,240
Speaker 17: Violent intimidation of probably like federal law enforcement would be

4567
03:56:20,360 --> 03:56:21,400
Speaker 17: one thing that they go after.

4568
03:56:21,880 --> 03:56:26,520
Speaker 13: Yeah, federal law enforcement people with protective orders, that kind

4569
03:56:26,520 --> 03:56:29,200
Speaker 13: of thing, right, And yeah, there are probably ways of

4570
03:56:29,320 --> 03:56:31,080
Speaker 13: doing that, But I think a lot of this is

4571
03:56:31,720 --> 03:56:34,640
Speaker 13: intended to have a chilling effect on speech and organizing.

4572
03:56:35,080 --> 03:56:38,040
Speaker 17: Absolutely, the Treasury Secretary will work with ETERN in general

4573
03:56:38,080 --> 03:56:40,880
Speaker 17: to quote identify and disrupt financial networks that funded domestic

4574
03:56:40,960 --> 03:56:44,520
Speaker 17: terrorism and political activity, and shall deploy investigative tools examine

4575
03:56:44,520 --> 03:56:47,120
Speaker 17: financial flows and coordinate with partner agencies to trace illicit

4576
03:56:47,240 --> 03:56:50,760
Speaker 17: funding streams unquote. Again very obsessed with this idea that

4577
03:56:50,840 --> 03:56:54,880
Speaker 17: there's tons of money that is funding ANTIFA, which if

4578
03:56:54,920 --> 03:56:57,720
Speaker 17: you know anyone under the antifam umbrella, you know that

4579
03:56:57,760 --> 03:57:01,520
Speaker 17: they are extremely bro Yeah, yeah, this is left wing

4580
03:57:01,640 --> 03:57:05,160
Speaker 17: protesters are not the most financially stable budget. Yeah, there's

4581
03:57:05,240 --> 03:57:08,760
Speaker 17: there's not this illicit funding streams. This is a huge,

4582
03:57:08,840 --> 03:57:11,200
Speaker 17: a huge idea that the right has like latched on.

4583
03:57:11,800 --> 03:57:14,800
Speaker 13: Ironically, this is something that the right shares with the

4584
03:57:14,840 --> 03:57:18,640
Speaker 13: authoritarian left. Actually, the idea that people can't act independently

4585
03:57:18,760 --> 03:57:22,280
Speaker 13: unless there is a large, well funded actor motivating them

4586
03:57:22,360 --> 03:57:25,480
Speaker 13: to act is something that because the authoritarian right and

4587
03:57:25,520 --> 03:57:28,280
Speaker 13: the authoritarian left agree on some things, and one of

4588
03:57:28,320 --> 03:57:31,400
Speaker 13: them is that like people can't take the initiative to

4589
03:57:31,600 --> 03:57:33,400
Speaker 13: act right, that there has to be some kind of

4590
03:57:34,040 --> 03:57:37,800
Speaker 13: vanguard in the case of the authoritarian left, or nefarious

4591
03:57:38,240 --> 03:57:41,000
Speaker 13: funder in the case of the authoritarian right. And so

4592
03:57:41,120 --> 03:57:43,200
Speaker 13: this this lines up with the way that they understand

4593
03:57:43,240 --> 03:57:43,600
Speaker 13: the world.

4594
03:57:43,880 --> 03:57:46,400
Speaker 17: I mean yeah, and I was talking specifically here in

4595
03:57:46,480 --> 03:57:50,680
Speaker 17: terms of like regular people on the ground attending protests.

4596
03:57:50,720 --> 03:57:53,600
Speaker 17: There's like big, big groups like you know often like

4597
03:57:53,680 --> 03:57:56,240
Speaker 17: you know, communist line groups that may be receiving funding

4598
03:57:56,320 --> 03:58:00,040
Speaker 17: possibly from foreign sources. Yeah, yeah, yeah for real, But

4599
03:58:00,680 --> 03:58:03,320
Speaker 17: I do not believe that is what this order is,

4600
03:58:03,440 --> 03:58:05,880
Speaker 17: at least this section is actually wanting to go after.

4601
03:58:06,120 --> 03:58:08,160
Speaker 17: That might be what they in the end actually end

4602
03:58:08,280 --> 03:58:10,520
Speaker 17: up targeting, end up sweeping up because it's the only

4603
03:58:10,560 --> 03:58:12,920
Speaker 17: thing that actually has like you know, foreign funding. But

4604
03:58:13,160 --> 03:58:16,720
Speaker 17: like you know, capital a Antifa teenagers with like umbrellas

4605
03:58:16,760 --> 03:58:18,600
Speaker 17: showing up in front of an ice building are not

4606
03:58:18,680 --> 03:58:21,360
Speaker 17: receiving money from like Iran, China or Russia.

4607
03:58:21,520 --> 03:58:24,960
Speaker 13: Like, yeah, as you say, it might be large as

4608
03:58:25,080 --> 03:58:29,760
Speaker 13: some policy law center, the ACLU, Open Society Foundation, build.

4609
03:58:29,600 --> 03:58:30,720
Speaker 12: Gate Network for Strong Community.

4610
03:58:30,840 --> 03:58:33,320
Speaker 13: Yes, like some of these organizations might be what they're

4611
03:58:33,400 --> 03:58:35,720
Speaker 13: trying to drag a net over here.

4612
03:58:36,120 --> 03:58:37,240
Speaker 12: Or nonprofits.

4613
03:58:37,480 --> 03:58:40,600
Speaker 17: The next section instructs the IRS to quote take action

4614
03:58:40,720 --> 03:58:44,400
Speaker 17: to ensure that no tax exempt entities are directly or

4615
03:58:44,600 --> 03:58:50,760
Speaker 17: indirectly financing political violence or domestic terrorism unquote, and calls

4616
03:58:50,800 --> 03:58:54,800
Speaker 17: for the IRS to refer suspect organizations and their employees

4617
03:58:55,040 --> 03:58:58,280
Speaker 17: to the Department of Justice for investigation and possible prosecution.

4618
03:58:59,000 --> 03:59:02,800
Speaker 13: It's probably worth the context here that there was this

4619
03:59:03,000 --> 03:59:06,120
Speaker 13: is after a twenty ten congressional investigation that found out

4620
03:59:06,160 --> 03:59:08,560
Speaker 13: that the IRS had gone after some tea party groups. Right,

4621
03:59:09,000 --> 03:59:11,040
Speaker 13: do you remember the Tea Party? Garrison? You or seven

4622
03:59:11,080 --> 03:59:11,560
Speaker 13: at that time?

4623
03:59:12,200 --> 03:59:13,600
Speaker 12: I remember the Tea Party?

4624
03:59:13,640 --> 03:59:18,000
Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, So the feeling here Biden, if you remember,

4625
03:59:18,080 --> 03:59:21,400
Speaker 13: Garrison also hired a number of new IRS agents. There

4626
03:59:21,480 --> 03:59:24,120
Speaker 13: was a conspiracy theory that these were to provide some

4627
03:59:24,280 --> 03:59:27,600
Speaker 13: kind of armed, massive, armed element to the IRS that

4628
03:59:27,760 --> 03:59:31,360
Speaker 13: was going around in the Biden administration. I'm sure the

4629
03:59:31,440 --> 03:59:33,400
Speaker 13: IRS had an armed element, right. There is not a

4630
03:59:33,480 --> 03:59:37,240
Speaker 13: federal investigative agency that doesn't, like the Postal Service has

4631
03:59:37,320 --> 03:59:40,520
Speaker 13: cops and probably a swat team. But there was a

4632
03:59:40,640 --> 03:59:44,680
Speaker 13: feeling on the right that Biden mobilized the IRS against

4633
03:59:44,880 --> 03:59:47,760
Speaker 13: right wing individuals, and I could see this being the

4634
03:59:48,640 --> 03:59:50,760
Speaker 13: old panting I'm swinging back in the other direction a

4635
03:59:50,800 --> 03:59:51,160
Speaker 13: little bit.

4636
03:59:51,920 --> 03:59:56,000
Speaker 17: One of the more interesting sections that I've highlighted of

4637
03:59:56,040 --> 04:00:01,560
Speaker 17: the memo instructs investigators to quote question individuals engaged in

4638
04:00:01,640 --> 04:00:06,920
Speaker 17: political violence or lawlessness regarding the entity or individual organizing

4639
04:00:07,080 --> 04:00:13,120
Speaker 17: such actions and any related financial sponsorship prior to perfect

4640
04:00:13,120 --> 04:00:17,400
Speaker 17: communication or initiation of a plea agreement unquote. That's directing

4641
04:00:17,520 --> 04:00:22,120
Speaker 17: like the interrogations of people arrested at protests, like specifically

4642
04:00:22,240 --> 04:00:24,480
Speaker 17: go after who's funding them to be a protest. I'm

4643
04:00:24,480 --> 04:00:28,760
Speaker 17: sure some very fruitful information will come out of referring

4644
04:00:28,840 --> 04:00:32,520
Speaker 17: back to our discussion of like, you know, the common

4645
04:00:32,600 --> 04:00:35,760
Speaker 17: motivators are Indica, including things you know, like anti capitalism,

4646
04:00:35,800 --> 04:00:39,240
Speaker 17: anti Americanism, and how those beliefs in and of themselves

4647
04:00:39,280 --> 04:00:42,040
Speaker 17: I do not think will be sufficient for declaring someone

4648
04:00:42,120 --> 04:00:45,200
Speaker 17: a terrorist and like locking them up. Is because later

4649
04:00:45,320 --> 04:00:50,800
Speaker 17: in this memo, the memo directs investigations to quote prioritize

4650
04:00:51,000 --> 04:00:55,240
Speaker 17: crimes such as the following assaulting federal officers or employees,

4651
04:00:55,480 --> 04:00:59,080
Speaker 17: conspiracy against rights, conspiracy to commit offense, solicitation to commit

4652
04:00:59,160 --> 04:01:02,320
Speaker 17: a crime of violent money laundering, funding of terrorist acts

4653
04:01:02,400 --> 04:01:07,320
Speaker 17: or otherwise facilitating terrorism, areson violations of the u Rico Act,

4654
04:01:07,720 --> 04:01:08,880
Speaker 17: and major fraud.

4655
04:01:08,640 --> 04:01:09,800
Speaker 12: Against the United States?

4656
04:01:10,200 --> 04:01:15,400
Speaker 17: Quote So could the government use these indicators to then

4657
04:01:15,560 --> 04:01:18,720
Speaker 17: find groups to target, to stick some of these crimes

4658
04:01:18,880 --> 04:01:22,400
Speaker 17: onto groups or organizations. Absolutely, that's probably what they're gonna do.

4659
04:01:24,440 --> 04:01:27,360
Speaker 17: But these these are the things to like be aware of,

4660
04:01:27,920 --> 04:01:30,280
Speaker 17: and they're gonna try to, you know, slap these on

4661
04:01:30,440 --> 04:01:32,720
Speaker 17: people who are just arrested at protests, people who work

4662
04:01:32,800 --> 04:01:37,400
Speaker 17: for NGOs, people who work for legal support networks, maybe

4663
04:01:37,680 --> 04:01:43,040
Speaker 17: migrant assistance networks like that's that's gonna be the target

4664
04:01:43,200 --> 04:01:45,520
Speaker 17: for a lot of these things. And we've seen some

4665
04:01:45,640 --> 04:01:48,840
Speaker 17: of these, like conspiracy charges in San Diego with their

4666
04:01:49,200 --> 04:01:52,120
Speaker 17: with their Antifa prosecution case. We've seen similar stuff in

4667
04:01:52,280 --> 04:01:55,320
Speaker 17: Atlanta with Stop cop City. Right, there is precedent for this.

4668
04:01:55,480 --> 04:01:58,960
Speaker 17: We've seen the state try to and to a degree

4669
04:01:59,000 --> 04:02:02,640
Speaker 17: of success and failure, actually push these charges forward.

4670
04:02:03,400 --> 04:02:06,920
Speaker 13: Yeah, the panic that those two cases created. I think

4671
04:02:07,120 --> 04:02:10,960
Speaker 13: we were still pre trial in the Atlantic case.

4672
04:02:10,880 --> 04:02:12,640
Speaker 12: Right, the trials in progress.

4673
04:02:12,880 --> 04:02:15,640
Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, sorry pre uh, I guess the conclusion of

4674
04:02:15,680 --> 04:02:16,080
Speaker 13: that trial.

4675
04:02:16,560 --> 04:02:19,280
Speaker 17: But the current indication is that most of these record

4676
04:02:19,360 --> 04:02:20,680
Speaker 17: chargers are not going to stick.

4677
04:02:20,800 --> 04:02:23,440
Speaker 13: Yes, and most of the conspiracy charges in San Diego

4678
04:02:23,520 --> 04:02:27,040
Speaker 13: did not, right, and most of those people ended up

4679
04:02:27,160 --> 04:02:29,200
Speaker 13: not being convicted of all the things they were accused of.

4680
04:02:30,440 --> 04:02:32,800
Speaker 13: I do see the major fraud against the United States,

4681
04:02:32,800 --> 04:02:35,400
Speaker 13: and I think that's probably going to use against NGOs.

4682
04:02:35,720 --> 04:02:39,280
Speaker 13: I do also wonder they have spoken before about the

4683
04:02:39,560 --> 04:02:43,120
Speaker 13: Payroll Protection Plan and looking at PPP fraud.

4684
04:02:43,480 --> 04:02:47,840
Speaker 17: Yeah, I mean financial crimes are always are always really scary, right, like.

4685
04:02:48,120 --> 04:02:50,960
Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, like a lot of nonprofits, you know, like

4686
04:02:51,280 --> 04:02:55,440
Speaker 13: people undoubtedly given a scaled of the PPP people abused it.

4687
04:02:55,640 --> 04:02:59,560
Speaker 13: I think nonprofits would be a lot more buttoned up

4688
04:02:59,720 --> 04:03:03,080
Speaker 13: than almost anyone else in that regard, you know, these

4689
04:03:03,200 --> 04:03:06,920
Speaker 13: aspectly these big liberal nonprofits. But that is an area

4690
04:03:07,000 --> 04:03:10,160
Speaker 13: which I'm sure that the trumpires will be looking at.

4691
04:03:10,360 --> 04:03:12,200
Speaker 17: Yeah, and they might even try to slap these on

4692
04:03:12,360 --> 04:03:15,960
Speaker 17: people making jokes or quote unquote threats online right solicitation

4693
04:03:16,040 --> 04:03:17,360
Speaker 17: to commit a crime of violence.

4694
04:03:17,560 --> 04:03:20,120
Speaker 13: Yeah, yeah, Yeah, people shouldn't be saying stupid chill on

4695
04:03:20,200 --> 04:03:20,960
Speaker 13: social media.

4696
04:03:20,840 --> 04:03:23,600
Speaker 17: Right now, which which is absolutely like a chilling speech,

4697
04:03:23,680 --> 04:03:25,600
Speaker 17: right that is, that's excting speech.

4698
04:03:25,840 --> 04:03:27,040
Speaker 12: That is a bad thing.

4699
04:03:27,680 --> 04:03:30,600
Speaker 17: But you don't want to give these people extra ammunition

4700
04:03:30,680 --> 04:03:32,160
Speaker 17: to use against yourself right now.

4701
04:03:32,720 --> 04:03:39,040
Speaker 13: Fighting words are not always like First Amendment speech right

4702
04:03:39,160 --> 04:03:41,760
Speaker 13: now now, Like I'm no expect in where that starts

4703
04:03:41,760 --> 04:03:43,920
Speaker 13: and where that ends. But yeah, yeah, like in terms

4704
04:03:43,960 --> 04:03:47,440
Speaker 13: of not doing stupid things, like this is not a

4705
04:03:47,520 --> 04:03:50,440
Speaker 13: time to do stupid things on your posting websit of choice.

4706
04:03:51,120 --> 04:03:54,800
Speaker 17: Section two closes by calling for investigators in federal police

4707
04:03:54,800 --> 04:03:58,120
Speaker 17: to quote adopt strategies similar to those used to address

4708
04:03:58,120 --> 04:04:01,600
Speaker 17: a violent crime and organized crime to disrupt and dismantle

4709
04:04:01,760 --> 04:04:05,800
Speaker 17: entire networks of criminal activity unquote. So yeah, especially with

4710
04:04:05,840 --> 04:04:10,600
Speaker 17: all this financial stuff, money laundering, rico, conspiracy charges, they're

4711
04:04:10,640 --> 04:04:14,760
Speaker 17: basically using or they want to use like tactics to

4712
04:04:14,840 --> 04:04:18,360
Speaker 17: take down like organized crime rings. Just targeting their political enemies,

4713
04:04:19,000 --> 04:04:23,560
Speaker 17: targeting political organizations and people who attend protests like that

4714
04:04:23,760 --> 04:04:28,000
Speaker 17: is that is the real gist of this memo. Section

4715
04:04:28,080 --> 04:04:31,080
Speaker 17: three instructs the Eterney General to designate qualifying groups or

4716
04:04:31,280 --> 04:04:36,400
Speaker 17: entities under investigation as domestic terrorist organizations per the definition

4717
04:04:36,440 --> 04:04:40,480
Speaker 17: of domestic terrorism in eighteen USC two three three one five,

4718
04:04:41,000 --> 04:04:43,120
Speaker 17: and to submit a list of such groups to the

4719
04:04:43,280 --> 04:04:46,920
Speaker 17: President of the United States. And Section four instructs the

4720
04:04:46,920 --> 04:04:49,920
Speaker 17: Attorney General and Secretary of Homeland Security to designate domestic

4721
04:04:50,000 --> 04:04:53,800
Speaker 17: terrorism a national priority area and provide extra funding for

4722
04:04:53,920 --> 04:04:57,560
Speaker 17: law enforcement to quote, detect, prevent, and protect against threats

4723
04:04:57,640 --> 04:05:02,200
Speaker 17: arising from this area. That is the bulk of the

4724
04:05:02,320 --> 04:05:07,600
Speaker 17: National Security Potential Memorandum number seven, promising to chill speech

4725
04:05:07,840 --> 04:05:12,080
Speaker 17: and go after political opponents and organizations, entities, and individuals

4726
04:05:12,120 --> 04:05:16,440
Speaker 17: and employees of organizations. Yeah, very very undemocratic, very very

4727
04:05:16,520 --> 04:05:20,640
Speaker 17: on its face authoritarian. Yeah, you don't even need like

4728
04:05:20,800 --> 04:05:24,160
Speaker 17: like allegations of political targeting. Like they're writing down how

4729
04:05:24,200 --> 04:05:27,520
Speaker 17: they want to do political targeting, they're bragging about it.

4730
04:05:28,480 --> 04:05:30,760
Speaker 13: It's really what briefly want to raise the example of

4731
04:05:31,120 --> 04:05:36,720
Speaker 13: the flag burning. Right, So Donald Trump signed an executive

4732
04:05:36,840 --> 04:05:41,000
Speaker 13: order ordering the Justice Department to investigate flag burning earlier

4733
04:05:41,040 --> 04:05:45,360
Speaker 13: this year. I can't quite remember when. Subsequently, someone called

4734
04:05:45,480 --> 04:05:51,560
Speaker 13: jan Carey of North Carolina was arrested after they burned

4735
04:05:51,600 --> 04:05:54,840
Speaker 13: a flag, an American flag. Just to be clear outside

4736
04:05:54,880 --> 04:05:57,160
Speaker 13: the White House, I guess the flag burning executive order

4737
04:05:57,160 --> 04:06:00,320
Speaker 13: doesn't apply to like you're you know, like anime flag

4738
04:06:00,400 --> 04:06:03,000
Speaker 13: or whatever, specifically about the flag of the United States,

4739
04:06:03,360 --> 04:06:06,600
Speaker 13: something which I think Johnson versus Texas is a Supreme

4740
04:06:06,680 --> 04:06:08,640
Speaker 13: Court case, right, but there is a considerable amount of

4741
04:06:08,680 --> 04:06:13,120
Speaker 13: legal precedent that is First Amendment speech. Kerry was arrested.

4742
04:06:13,560 --> 04:06:16,440
Speaker 13: What is being missed in the discussion is that Kerry

4743
04:06:16,600 --> 04:06:20,320
Speaker 13: was charged with two misdemeanor crimes. One was for lighting

4744
04:06:20,400 --> 04:06:23,240
Speaker 13: a fire not in a designated area and receptacle. The

4745
04:06:23,360 --> 04:06:25,560
Speaker 13: other was for lighting a fire in a manner that

4746
04:06:25,640 --> 04:06:27,720
Speaker 13: threatened to cause damage to a resulted in the burning

4747
04:06:27,760 --> 04:06:31,240
Speaker 13: of property, real property and park resources. These are both

4748
04:06:31,280 --> 04:06:34,320
Speaker 13: offensives that you can be incarcerated or fined for. I

4749
04:06:34,720 --> 04:06:37,400
Speaker 13: want people to know that, right, Like, he was not

4750
04:06:37,600 --> 04:06:41,720
Speaker 13: arrested because of the executive order, although the executive order

4751
04:06:41,840 --> 04:06:44,960
Speaker 13: may very much influenced the climate which led to his

4752
04:06:45,160 --> 04:06:47,480
Speaker 13: arrest in charge with these other things, but he wasn't

4753
04:06:47,560 --> 04:06:50,400
Speaker 13: charged with violating the executive order because that is not

4754
04:06:50,600 --> 04:06:51,480
Speaker 13: how it works.

4755
04:06:52,120 --> 04:06:55,280
Speaker 17: They can't change the law with executive orders or presidential memorandums.

4756
04:06:55,480 --> 04:06:59,320
Speaker 17: What they can do is direct how the law will

4757
04:06:59,400 --> 04:07:03,320
Speaker 17: be in four or policy guidelines, right, and that's what

4758
04:07:03,600 --> 04:07:06,120
Speaker 17: this is affecting right now. All of these branches like

4759
04:07:06,200 --> 04:07:10,080
Speaker 17: the DHS, Justice Department, Federal Police are going to be

4760
04:07:10,200 --> 04:07:14,320
Speaker 17: following the policy guidelines and outlines established in this memo

4761
04:07:14,760 --> 04:07:17,320
Speaker 17: to then try to enforce the laws that we have

4762
04:07:17,720 --> 04:07:20,080
Speaker 17: and some of which they will probably find ways to

4763
04:07:20,200 --> 04:07:22,400
Speaker 17: do it and sometimes they won't.

4764
04:07:22,920 --> 04:07:25,800
Speaker 13: Yeah, we have a very broad range of statutes criminalizing

4765
04:07:25,840 --> 04:07:28,920
Speaker 13: a very large range of things, and someone will find

4766
04:07:28,960 --> 04:07:31,440
Speaker 13: some way in there to criminalize someone for something that

4767
04:07:31,640 --> 04:07:35,320
Speaker 13: might seem on the face of it to be not nefarious.

4768
04:07:36,160 --> 04:07:39,440
Speaker 13: But that doesn't mean that we have executive legiative fusion.

4769
04:07:39,520 --> 04:07:41,240
Speaker 13: We don't write yourself too prior to the government, and

4770
04:07:41,280 --> 04:07:42,520
Speaker 13: that is important to remember too.

4771
04:07:43,200 --> 04:07:48,840
Speaker 17: No, no laws have been changed criminalizing anti americanism, right, Yeah,

4772
04:07:49,000 --> 04:07:51,000
Speaker 17: that is that it is an important thing to keep

4773
04:07:51,040 --> 04:07:53,320
Speaker 17: in mind. That does not mean that this order is

4774
04:07:53,440 --> 04:07:56,720
Speaker 17: not going to chill speech, suppress free speech, or be.

4775
04:07:56,840 --> 04:07:58,480
Speaker 12: Used to criminally target people.

4776
04:07:58,640 --> 04:08:02,240
Speaker 17: Yeah, criminal prosecutions can ruin the lives of people for

4777
04:08:02,640 --> 04:08:05,560
Speaker 17: years and years, regardless of the actual outcome, right, even

4778
04:08:05,600 --> 04:08:08,160
Speaker 17: if they get off on the charges. And totally we

4779
04:08:08,240 --> 04:08:10,120
Speaker 17: want to be clear that we're not like minimizing the

4780
04:08:10,160 --> 04:08:12,640
Speaker 17: effects of this, but we do want to actually break

4781
04:08:12,720 --> 04:08:15,920
Speaker 17: down what like the threat model is specifically for like

4782
04:08:16,240 --> 04:08:22,320
Speaker 17: NGO's legal organizations that help protesters or migrants, LGBTQ organizations, Right,

4783
04:08:22,640 --> 04:08:25,200
Speaker 17: these are probably going to be the first targets of

4784
04:08:25,280 --> 04:08:28,840
Speaker 17: a lot of like the conspiracy fraud sections of disorder. Besides,

4785
04:08:28,920 --> 04:08:31,640
Speaker 17: you know, protesters that get rounded up and get put

4786
04:08:31,760 --> 04:08:35,520
Speaker 17: into into this like political war game that they're playing,

4787
04:08:35,880 --> 04:08:39,360
Speaker 17: similar to how regular protesters in Atlanta then found themselves

4788
04:08:39,720 --> 04:08:43,160
Speaker 17: suddenly admitst like a three year long reco domestic terrorism

4789
04:08:43,280 --> 04:08:46,920
Speaker 17: case despite not participating in any kind of large organized

4790
04:08:46,960 --> 04:08:50,160
Speaker 17: aspect of stop Coop City. They were just regular attendees.

4791
04:08:50,480 --> 04:08:53,760
Speaker 17: So there'll be stuff similar to that that happens throughout

4792
04:08:53,840 --> 04:08:56,760
Speaker 17: the next few months to years, and I think that

4793
04:08:57,000 --> 04:09:00,480
Speaker 17: is where we should keep our attention focused on mitigating

4794
04:09:00,680 --> 04:09:02,200
Speaker 17: the harms of government overreach.

4795
04:09:02,680 --> 04:09:05,320
Speaker 13: Yeah, so for the fun raise this week, something slightly different.

4796
04:09:05,800 --> 04:09:07,880
Speaker 13: I wanted to read of this go fundme for the

4797
04:09:07,920 --> 04:09:12,360
Speaker 13: emergency Circus. They are traveling south of the US border.

4798
04:09:12,480 --> 04:09:16,120
Speaker 13: I believe they're going to migrant shelters in Tijuana to

4799
04:09:16,280 --> 04:09:21,520
Speaker 13: hold circus acts circus performances for kids. I have obviously, obviously,

4800
04:09:21,600 --> 04:09:23,120
Speaker 13: but I've spent a decent amount of my life in

4801
04:09:23,240 --> 04:09:26,160
Speaker 13: refugee camps and migrant shelters and they can be pretty

4802
04:09:26,200 --> 04:09:29,760
Speaker 13: hard places for kids, and it's something that I think

4803
04:09:29,840 --> 04:09:33,160
Speaker 13: about almost every day. And so people bringing joy to

4804
04:09:33,200 --> 04:09:35,640
Speaker 13: their children is something that I think is wonderful and

4805
04:09:35,840 --> 04:09:38,800
Speaker 13: very important. People, you know, get the impression that like

4806
04:09:39,200 --> 04:09:41,120
Speaker 13: legal funds are important and the kids having a laugh

4807
04:09:41,200 --> 04:09:43,320
Speaker 13: is not important, But like children have a right to

4808
04:09:43,360 --> 04:09:45,120
Speaker 13: be children, and that's taken away from them by the

4809
04:09:45,160 --> 04:09:48,720
Speaker 13: immigration system. And so I would like if you supported this.

4810
04:09:49,240 --> 04:09:54,680
Speaker 13: The website is ww dot gofundb dot com slash f

4811
04:09:54,960 --> 04:09:59,320
Speaker 13: slash ec hyphen o f f hyphen ic. It will

4812
04:09:59,320 --> 04:10:02,280
Speaker 13: also be in a show. If you would like to

4813
04:10:02,480 --> 04:10:06,120
Speaker 13: email us, you can do so at our encrypted email address,

4814
04:10:06,480 --> 04:10:11,760
Speaker 13: which is cool Zone Tips at proton dot me. Your

4815
04:10:11,800 --> 04:10:13,960
Speaker 13: email will only be end to end encrypted if you

4816
04:10:14,080 --> 04:10:17,400
Speaker 13: send it from an encrypted email address. Proton mail is

4817
04:10:17,480 --> 04:10:20,040
Speaker 13: an example of an encrypted email address.

4818
04:10:21,120 --> 04:10:24,840
Speaker 17: Before we close the episode, I will tease an episode

4819
04:10:24,880 --> 04:10:28,440
Speaker 17: for next week. There was a shooting at a Mormon

4820
04:10:28,680 --> 04:10:33,160
Speaker 17: church on Sunday, which the right briefly tried to turn

4821
04:10:33,240 --> 04:10:36,800
Speaker 17: into like this culture war narrative on attacks on Christianity,

4822
04:10:37,240 --> 04:10:39,560
Speaker 17: and then once information about the shooter became more clear,

4823
04:10:39,560 --> 04:10:42,880
Speaker 17: they quickly dropped the subject. So on Wednesday, I'll be

4824
04:10:42,920 --> 04:10:45,720
Speaker 17: doing an episode talking about this shooting and a few others,

4825
04:10:45,760 --> 04:10:48,560
Speaker 17: and how various outlets on the right end left are

4826
04:10:48,880 --> 04:10:51,680
Speaker 17: only reporting on these big shootings insofar as they can

4827
04:10:51,720 --> 04:10:55,360
Speaker 17: turn them into political weapons against the opposition party.

4828
04:10:56,240 --> 04:10:59,600
Speaker 12: We reported the news, We reported the news.

4829
04:11:05,080 --> 04:11:08,200
Speaker 1: Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week

4830
04:11:08,320 --> 04:11:10,160
Speaker 1: from now until the heat death of the universe.

4831
04:11:10,960 --> 04:11:11,520
Speaker 7: It could happen.

4832
04:11:11,600 --> 04:11:13,440
Speaker 17: Here is a production of cool Zone Media.

4833
04:11:13,640 --> 04:11:15,520
Speaker 12: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media.

4834
04:11:15,840 --> 04:11:19,080
Speaker 10: Visit our website coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out

4835
04:11:19,120 --> 04:11:22,200
Speaker 10: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you.

4836
04:11:22,280 --> 04:11:25,240
Speaker 17: Listen to podcasts can now find sources where it could

4837
04:11:25,240 --> 04:11:27,480
Speaker 17: happen here listed directly in episode descriptions.

4838
04:11:27,880 --> 04:11:28,640
Speaker 12: Thanks for listening.