Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning,
Speaker 1: This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's
Speaker 1: episode will be a longer one part of my series
Speaker 1: where I interview fascinating people about how they manage their
Speaker 1: time and how all of us can take our days
Speaker 1: from great to awesome. So I am so excited to
Speaker 1: welcome Anna Goldfarm to Before Breakfast today. Anna is the
Speaker 1: author of the book Modern Friendship, on how to nurture
Speaker 1: our most valued connections. So Anna, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
Speaker 1: Well, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit
Speaker 1: about you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a journalist and I've reported on friendships, relationships,
Speaker 2: and pop psychology for nearly a decade. I've really gotten
Speaker 2: to dig deep with friendship, but mostly for The New
Speaker 2: York Times. So from my reporting, I wanted something more
Speaker 2: comprehensive to describe the strange waters that we're swimming in,
Speaker 2: Like I really wanted to capture in a much deeper
Speaker 2: way than an article of Guys, here's what's going on.
Speaker 2: I want to orient everyone like, Okay, this is the
Speaker 2: game we're playing. It is very different rules than any
Speaker 2: other time before in history. So here you go. Here's
Speaker 2: what's up.
Speaker 1: So are I mean, are we imaginating are people feeling
Speaker 1: more isolated or lonely than in the past, And what's
Speaker 1: going on? What has changed with friendship to make that happen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, we have a lot of sociological factors that
Speaker 2: do not work in our favor. We live in a
Speaker 2: society where we're more butterflies. We have unlimited choice on
Speaker 2: who we can befriend and who we can associate with.
Speaker 2: But also it's easier to shed those connections because we
Speaker 2: don't stay in one place for too long. And you know,
Speaker 2: our grandparents, their social lives were more like an oak
Speaker 2: tree with deep roots where they stayed put and they
Speaker 2: knew their communities. They didn't have as much choice of food.
Speaker 2: Of a friend, they usually had to be someone that
Speaker 2: look that came from their economic background, looked like them.
Speaker 2: So it's just pros and cons. It's not saying like
Speaker 2: it was better back then, and it's you know, and
Speaker 2: it's not comparing. It's just different, different pros and cons.
Speaker 2: And I know people sense that things are different. They
Speaker 2: probably sense that it's so much harder to keep friendships
Speaker 2: going than when they were younger, and it's not their imagination.
Speaker 2: They have a collection of friends they've made from different
Speaker 2: parts of their life, but they only share common history
Speaker 2: with us, not with each other.
Speaker 1: So it's harder to have sort of a group of friends, yeah,
Speaker 1: because you sort of are the middle of a spoke
Speaker 1: of a wheel. You're the hub of the wheel on
Speaker 1: their spokes. I think I've seen you use analogically, and.
Speaker 2: You know, it's just a lot harder to bring different
Speaker 2: different people in your life. Two of my best friends
Speaker 2: didn't even know each other until my book release party.
Speaker 2: So my advice, release a book, have a party that
Speaker 2: everyone can finally meet.
Speaker 1: Bring everyone. It's like a wedding or something. Right like
Speaker 1: the wedding, you realize, like all these people they know you,
Speaker 1: but they don't know everyone else.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's.
Speaker 1: A it's a little strange to think about it that way,
Speaker 1: but you you know, you focus on sort of the
Speaker 1: practicalities of how you can build relationships. And as we
Speaker 1: were talking before, you just mentioned something we always like
Speaker 1: to talk about routines on this show. And you have
Speaker 1: now have a morning routine of talking to your sister,
Speaker 1: which obviously family members can be friends. I wonder if
Speaker 1: you could talk a little bit about how that routine
Speaker 1: came to be and how that has been important in
Speaker 1: your life.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I you know, I don't think my sister will
Speaker 2: mind me sharing this because I've talked about this before,
Speaker 2: and also it's true, so it stry to argue with
Speaker 2: the truth. But my sister and I really had trouble
Speaker 2: finding common ground for a long time. You know, she
Speaker 2: got married and then started having children. I got married
Speaker 2: and decided that I was not going to have children,
Speaker 2: and we just really had to disconnect over just our lives,
Speaker 2: like our different roles that were choosing, and if we
Speaker 2: could find common ground with that. I started reporting on
Speaker 2: friendships around twenty seventeen for the New York Times, and
Speaker 2: in the course of my reporting, I met this woman,
Speaker 2: Shasta Nelson, who's an incredible friendship expert. She's an OG,
Speaker 2: she's brilliant, the real deal. And what I learned from
Speaker 2: Shasta's work is that friendships require three things positivity, consistency,
Speaker 2: and vulnerability. So I started applying that to my relationship
Speaker 2: with my sister, where you know, it was rocky, and
Speaker 2: the first thing I did was consistency of she know,
Speaker 2: she has these small children, So I said, why don't
Speaker 2: I come over every weekend and I come help with
Speaker 2: your kids? So I had the consistency I'm coming over
Speaker 2: every Saturday. Then I worked on positivity of you know,
Speaker 2: I saw this slip glass. I thought I'd be pretty
Speaker 2: for you. I thought this would be a good shade
Speaker 2: for you. Here I bought you like a little some
Speaker 2: cookies at the market, like just little treats. And that
Speaker 2: led to vulnerability of what's going on with you? Like,
Speaker 2: what's really going on with your your you know, what
Speaker 2: are you struggling with? How can I help? And those
Speaker 2: three things, paying attention to them completely completely transformed our
Speaker 2: relationship and part of the I've maintained the consistency every weekend,
Speaker 2: I still go over, and she started calling me every
Speaker 2: morning after dropping the kids off to school, when she's
Speaker 2: driving home, she'll call me. So we've created our own
Speaker 2: routine means, but you had to lay the I had
Speaker 2: to lay the groundwork for those routines to stick.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because friendship, it turns out, takes work and it
Speaker 1: takes time, and of course that is something that many
Speaker 1: people struggle with a lot. And so let's talk about
Speaker 1: that a little. I mean a lot of people say
Speaker 1: like I want more friends, or I want a better
Speaker 1: social life or something like that, but that's kind of
Speaker 1: a vague hope. I mean, what what are people getting
Speaker 1: at when they say that.
Speaker 2: Well, studies show that people think they'd be happier with
Speaker 2: more friends, But what actually makes us happier is being
Speaker 2: considered someone's best friend. And that's because that's a when
Speaker 2: someone identifies us and it says, oh my gosh, she's
Speaker 2: my best friend, it reinforces our you know, that someone
Speaker 2: judges our good character and our sees our integrity and
Speaker 2: sees our inner beauty, and that gives us the self
Speaker 2: esteem and confidence that we think having more friends would
Speaker 2: give us. Yes, I mean our phones are full of
Speaker 2: names of people that we love, but it doesn't feel
Speaker 2: that amazing, like as amazing as you think it would feel.
Speaker 2: You know, our social media. You open it up, Oh,
Speaker 2: here's all my friends, and it doesn't really feel like anything.
Speaker 2: It kind of just feel, if anything, it feels negative
Speaker 2: of well, look what they're doing and I'm not included.
Speaker 2: Why wasn't I included? All they're all on a trip.
Speaker 2: I haven't been on the trip. It's just like it's
Speaker 2: none of it makes feel that good. So what a
Speaker 2: better strategy is to be a dynamic teammate, a dynamite
Speaker 2: team meat to three to five people, Like, go back
Speaker 2: to basics. Really, you know, when you think about when
Speaker 2: you were happiest with your friendships, it might have been
Speaker 2: high school or college where you just had a few
Speaker 2: friends and you just focused on them and that was enough.
Speaker 2: You know, you weren't trying to keep all these plates
Speaker 2: in the air of every old coworker and old roommate
Speaker 2: and childhood best friend. Like you weren't trying to keep
Speaker 2: all these plates spinning. So go back to basics. Pick
Speaker 2: a few people and be wonderful to them. Excellent.
Speaker 1: Well, we're going to take a short break and then
Speaker 1: be back with Anna Goldfarb talking more things friendship. Well,
Speaker 1: I am back. This is one of the longer episodes
Speaker 1: of Before Breakfast. I am talking with Anna Goldfarb, who
Speaker 1: is a friendship expert author of the book Modern Friendship. So, Anna,
Speaker 1: one of the things you've said that I've found so
Speaker 1: interesting is you know, you're like, I want more friends,
Speaker 1: but what you actually want is more people to do
Speaker 1: X with. Like that friendship start out at least based
Speaker 1: on shared activities. Can you talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a huge misconception about friendship that it should
Speaker 2: just go on forever because because there's affection there, people
Speaker 2: should just make time in their schedule because you've known
Speaker 2: each other so long, there's such great affection for one another.
Speaker 2: But that's not actually how humans work. Humans work, And
Speaker 2: I learned this theory something called choice theory, developed by
Speaker 2: doctor William Glasser in the nineteen sixties, and choice theory
Speaker 2: says that we all have five inherent genetic needs and
Speaker 2: their survival, power, love and belonging, freedom, which is like
Speaker 2: self expression, and fun. Those are the reasons we do everything.
Speaker 2: So when you think about your friendships, and if it's
Speaker 2: not particular, if it's not helping your survival, you know,
Speaker 2: in a real way, if it's not helping your power
Speaker 2: in a real way, if there's not really love and belonging,
Speaker 2: you're not in any groups together. You know, you're married,
Speaker 2: you get love from other people more primarily more freedom.
Speaker 2: If you don't really do anything creative or you feel
Speaker 2: like you're yourself, that could be attending a pride parade,
Speaker 2: It could be really any kind of self expression and
Speaker 2: five fun. If it's not fun, not going to be
Speaker 2: time to do it. So when you look at friendships
Speaker 2: through that lens, it can help explain why you pull
Speaker 2: away from friendships but gravitate towards others because friendships that
Speaker 2: help us with those needs were more likely to make
Speaker 2: time for.
Speaker 1: And so maybe you're looking for a friend to run
Speaker 1: with or a friend to go to the movies with,
Speaker 1: and so you kind of need to filter through the
Speaker 1: people that are in your life with a focus on that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, or power is your job. Like a lot of friends.
Speaker 2: If you're not in the same industry, that can be challenging.
Speaker 2: It's like, well, what else do we have that you
Speaker 2: can help me with? As I get older, I've been creating.
Speaker 2: I've been creating more friendships and seeking out more friendships
Speaker 2: with other journalists and authors because they get the challenges
Speaker 2: of the industry and then we can it's easier to
Speaker 2: form a friendship with peopleeople who care about the things
Speaker 2: that you care about. And with meeting you know, we
Speaker 2: have our spouse, that's a lot of our love and
Speaker 2: belonging in time, so friends just take on a different sheet,
Speaker 2: like it's an own brain. They can I go like
Speaker 2: one shade to the other. As you become more things,
Speaker 2: the more people friends just just have to have to transform.
Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about issuing invitations that are more likely
Speaker 1: to get a yes because you have some guidelines. I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people are just like, let's get
Speaker 1: together sometime, and that's that's a terrible invitation. So what
Speaker 1: mistakes are people making and how can we do this
Speaker 1: invitation these invitations better.
Speaker 2: The biggest mistake I see is that people spend zero
Speaker 2: thought on how their invitation lands in someone else's phone
Speaker 2: or inbox. They just rattle off low effort like hey
Speaker 2: we should hang out, Hey I miss you, I want
Speaker 2: to see you. But that creates a lot of work
Speaker 2: on the part of the recipient of well, when what
Speaker 2: are we doing? Where are we getting together? And then
Speaker 2: it's like oh, then the grooms come out. It's like, oh, no,
Speaker 2: I got you drop this bomb on my lap of
Speaker 2: you want to see me. I don't know why you
Speaker 2: want to see me, you know, I got to figure
Speaker 2: out the details. It just creates a lot of work,
Speaker 2: a lot of mental work that you that you may
Speaker 2: not have intended for the recipient to do. It was
Speaker 2: more just hey, we should get together, and it's like,
Speaker 2: what do you mean get together? Why? So what we
Speaker 2: can do is frontloader invitations with the why so the
Speaker 2: other person can better determine if this is a good
Speaker 2: use of their time, and what that looks like is
Speaker 2: you know, I'll take an example from my own life.
Speaker 2: I recently reached out to a woman who works in
Speaker 2: media in my neighborhood and I was like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 2: you live in Philly. I live in Philly. We're both
Speaker 2: in media. Let's get together. That was the why of
Speaker 2: this is what I want to see you. We have
Speaker 2: the same industry. And we got together for a happy
Speaker 2: hour and I asked her what are some of her
Speaker 2: pain points living in Philly and she said, well, most
Speaker 2: of my friends have moved away and it's been really
Speaker 2: hard the past year. Like my best friend moved, they
Speaker 2: all moved over the world. And I was like, you
Speaker 2: know what, I think you'd really like my two other friends.
Speaker 2: So I went to my two other friends and said, hey,
Speaker 2: I met this great woman. Let's all have a happy hour.
Speaker 2: I want you all to meet. I think you guys
Speaker 2: would really hit it off. I'm giving reasons as I'm
Speaker 2: telling the story, I'm peppering reasons for everything I'm doing.
Speaker 2: So the new friend, I invited her these women I
Speaker 2: think you'd hit it off with there in media would
Speaker 2: be a cool hang and that reason was enough for
Speaker 2: her to say yes. And then to my two friends,
Speaker 2: they're like, oh, she sounds cool, I'd love to meet her.
Speaker 2: So we all went out for a happy hour and
Speaker 2: it was amazing. We had a great time, and we're like,
Speaker 2: let's do this regularly. Let's start it monthly hangout. So
Speaker 2: every step along the way we had a reason, a
Speaker 2: reason for the initial meeting, a reason to expand the
Speaker 2: circle so she could meet more friends in the neighborhood.
Speaker 2: And it was a success. So you know, anyone can
Speaker 2: do this. I'm not some savant like of savant. I
Speaker 2: just give meaningful reasons that people responded to to make
Speaker 2: them say yes, to have them not flake or bail.
Speaker 2: And usually if people flake or bail, it's because the
Speaker 2: reason wasn't clear, or the reason wasn't compelling to get together.
Speaker 1: So's and I've even seen you mention giving specific times
Speaker 1: and locations, like if you were inviting someone for coffee.
Speaker 1: You're not just like I want to talk with you
Speaker 1: about X related to our industry, which again might be
Speaker 1: a good why, but you say, you know I could
Speaker 1: do these three times. There's a cute place here. Does
Speaker 1: any of that work for you?
Speaker 2: Right?
Speaker 1: Like to make it as easy as possible for people
Speaker 1: to say yes, yes, And.
Speaker 2: Also it shows that you understand that this new friend
Speaker 2: has a whole other life and other commitments, and it's
Speaker 2: a sign of respect. It's a subtle sign of respect
Speaker 2: of I respect your time. Here's what I'm asking, here's
Speaker 2: the container it's in, and it will make it easier
Speaker 2: for people to say yes, especially if they have children
Speaker 2: or spouses, like they need to know what's the time
Speaker 2: coming when you're asking, I need to plan around it.
Speaker 2: So it's like a subtle way. And I really think
Speaker 2: I try to be the friend that I would love
Speaker 2: to have. I would find it very respectful if someone
Speaker 2: did that for me, so I just try to return
Speaker 2: the favor. Well.
Speaker 1: I like that last point because there's definitely an element
Speaker 1: there of being of service. And when you talked earlier
Speaker 1: about choosing to be a wonderful friend to the three
Speaker 1: to five people, I mean part of that is being
Speaker 1: helpful and you ask this new friend about her pain
Speaker 1: points in Philly. I think a lot of people don't
Speaker 1: do that naturally, So maybe you can talk about what
Speaker 1: that looks like.
Speaker 2: Well, it can really be like what you know. I
Speaker 2: in a clunky way, it's saying like how can I
Speaker 2: help you? But in a more subtle way, it's just
Speaker 2: listening to how how do you find living here? Like?
Speaker 2: Are what are some like anything you've been struggling with.
Speaker 2: I wouldn't be that overt or explicit, but I would
Speaker 2: just listen and feel like, tell me what's going on,
Speaker 2: how's your job? How has your social life been? And
Speaker 2: just listen for those bids of well I'm struggling at
Speaker 2: this area like I'm I'm really having a tough time
Speaker 2: here and being like, oh, here's how I can help.
Speaker 2: I would love to help. Does this sound interesting to you?
Speaker 2: And it's really about being an excellent team And it's
Speaker 2: very careful not to dominate and not to say well
Speaker 2: here's what you should do. You should meet my friends,
Speaker 2: They're going to be great, come over Thursday. Well it's
Speaker 2: like that's dominie. It's a better strategy to say, hey,
Speaker 2: I really think I can help here. Would you want
Speaker 2: to get together with some friends, I can see if
Speaker 2: they're open to it and have them involved in the process.
Speaker 2: I think that's a miscalculation people make is to show
Speaker 2: their love. They're like, I'll do it, I'll solve it,
Speaker 2: i'll take it on, I'll fix it. And people don't
Speaker 2: want that from their friends. It's a pure relationship of equals.
Speaker 2: So to be really mindful of the power dynamics.
Speaker 1: I love that image of being a teammate. I mean,
Speaker 1: we all want teammates in life. But one last thing
Speaker 1: about invitations. Obviously sometimes people don't respond. You talk a
Speaker 1: little bit about making silence meaningful. What does that mean?
Speaker 2: This is a trick. This is a trick I learned
Speaker 2: from my freelancing for all these top tier outlets, because
Speaker 2: they don't always get back to you right away, and
Speaker 2: I need to preserve my sanity so I'm not held
Speaker 2: hostage by these silences. And we can apply this to
Speaker 2: our friendships too. And the way it works is if
Speaker 2: you have friends that are exceptionally busy or they're a
Speaker 2: little bit harder to pin down, they don't always get
Speaker 2: back to you. You can say, hey, i'd love to
Speaker 2: see you. Do you want to go to the forty
Speaker 2: showing of Nightmare before Christmas, which is something my friend
Speaker 2: just went to. And if I don't hear from you
Speaker 2: by noon, all of a sudden, you can't go by
Speaker 2: saying how you'll interpret the silence. You you're taking power
Speaker 2: and you're giving a kindness to the other person. Of
Speaker 2: I understand you may not have time to get back
Speaker 2: to me. Here's how I'll interpret your non answer, because
Speaker 2: a non answer is an answer, so you're just being
Speaker 2: you know, saying it out loud. Of I will interpret
Speaker 2: your non answer this in this way, and then you
Speaker 2: can say I'll be in touch later next week to
Speaker 2: find lunch plans like you can. It's not going to
Speaker 2: be weird. The goal is to reduce resentment and reduce
Speaker 2: these pain points and with certain friends where they can't
Speaker 2: get back to you right away, so keep it moving,
Speaker 2: be flexible, and take control. If I don't hear from you,
Speaker 2: I'll assume this.
Speaker 1: That sounds good. All right, Well, we're going to take
Speaker 1: one more quick ad break and we'll be back with
Speaker 1: a little bit more of Anna's personal time management tips. Well,
Speaker 1: I am back talking with Anna Goldfarb about modern friendships
Speaker 1: and ways that busy people can make space in their
Speaker 1: life for friends and do it so efficiently, you know,
Speaker 1: make things work without a whole lot of terrible back
Speaker 1: and forth, which can cause many plans to die. But
Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about your own life. What
Speaker 1: are some of the things that you are doing now
Speaker 1: to make yourself more efficient or productive.
Speaker 2: Well, the main thing is, and my book can help
Speaker 2: walk people through this, is picking your elite tier of people.
Speaker 2: I cannot be the same level a friend to everyone
Speaker 2: I've ever met in my life. It really is picking
Speaker 2: a handful of people. I call it your Jacuzi tier,
Speaker 2: your Dacuzi friends, and commit to prioritizing these people, being
Speaker 2: in contact with these people and seeing them regularly a
Speaker 2: few times a month, and from there, once I knew
Speaker 2: sort of who's on the shopping list, to put it
Speaker 2: in a sort of crude way, it makes things so
Speaker 2: much easier. Like other connections are a bonus and they're
Speaker 2: and I know how to regard them. But it's not
Speaker 2: as overwhelming of how am I going to juggle all
Speaker 2: of my responsibilities and obligations. It's like I have a plan,
Speaker 2: I have a strategy. These are the people and I've
Speaker 2: told them you're my Jacuzi friend. Here's what this means.
Speaker 2: It means if you text me or call me, I
Speaker 2: will do everything I can to reply or write back
Speaker 2: as soon as I can. It means we can celebrate
Speaker 2: birthdays together. Means we can celebrate the holidays together. Means
Speaker 2: we can have our own rituals. And that's simplified things
Speaker 2: because I know where to put my efforts. I highly
Speaker 2: encourage everyone to really sit down and make a list
Speaker 2: or if you need a little help, my book can
Speaker 2: help you of who are these people to you? And
Speaker 2: are these good choices? That's something you don't hear a
Speaker 2: lot when it comes to friendship, like, am I making
Speaker 2: good choices? Am I picking good people? So my book
Speaker 2: can help you evaluate, evaluate the kinds of people you're
Speaker 2: picking and making sure that they're appropriate for that level.
Speaker 1: Excellent? And what's something you have done recently to take
Speaker 1: a day from great to awesome?
Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, Well I have this actually, me and
Speaker 2: one of my best friends. We call it a Terrific
Speaker 2: Lady Day. And that's sort of where you can steal
Speaker 2: away for a few hours and buy a new random lipstick,
Speaker 2: get like that kale lemonade from a hip city of
Speaker 2: veg and just live a great life and kind of
Speaker 2: you know, bop around. I need a terrific lady bees.
Speaker 2: And it doesn't even need to be like this flashy thing,
Speaker 2: just a few little old treat a little I'm just
Speaker 2: on my own. I'm not gonna, you know, worry about
Speaker 2: anyone else, and it's gonna keep my eyes on my
Speaker 2: own paper and just do what I want to do
Speaker 2: and listen terrific lady ds. Embrace it. When you're having
Speaker 2: like a crummy week, just be like, you know, I
Speaker 2: need a terrific lady day. I need to go, you know,
Speaker 2: get my nails done and then I'll get a little coffee,
Speaker 2: like whatever you need these small moments. Also, I want
Speaker 2: to say we it feels so good to help others,
Speaker 2: but we can help people in a way that makes
Speaker 2: sense for us. So it really makes me. It turns
Speaker 2: a great a good day into a great day when
Speaker 2: I realize I'm suited to help a friend with something
Speaker 2: that they need, Like my new friend who wanted to
Speaker 2: make more friends, I'm like, I can help, I can
Speaker 2: do this, and that really boosts our self esteem. This
Speaker 2: is where those good feelings from friends come from is
Speaker 2: when you realize you have skills, you have a network,
Speaker 2: and you can help others. It's a cheap hit. It's dopamine,
Speaker 2: but now it's like a cheap bit of dopamine. But hey,
Speaker 2: we're all here for a good time.
Speaker 1: Well, I don't think helping others is a cheap hit
Speaker 1: of dopamine. I mean, you know, there are much cheaper
Speaker 1: hits one could imagine. So, yes, helping helping others is
Speaker 1: always good and something most of us should focus more
Speaker 1: time on in general. So, and where can our listeners
Speaker 1: find you? Where are you out in the world that
Speaker 1: we can locate your work and get to know you more.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can find me at Anna Goldfarb on Instagram.
Speaker 2: I've sort of a band on Twitter. I feel thank everyone,
Speaker 2: all right, all sort of And I forget that threads
Speaker 2: exist often, so listen Instagram still here, I'm on it,
Speaker 2: And I have a newsletter on substack called Friendship Explained.
Speaker 2: That's Anna Goldfarb dot sa substack dot com and I
Speaker 2: have a lot of fun over there. So please join
Speaker 2: me if you want to just just want some some
Speaker 2: cool discussion and analysis about my friendships are a dumpster fire,
Speaker 2: but yours don't have to be. Friendships in general are,
Speaker 2: but yours are going to be magnificent.
Speaker 1: Yours are going to be amazing. So we're in the jacuzzie,
Speaker 1: not in the dumpster fire. Get our metaphors right here,
Speaker 1: all right, awesome? Well Anna, thank you so much for
Speaker 1: joining us, and thank you to everyone for listening. I
Speaker 1: welcome feedback on these longer episodes. Ideas you have or
Speaker 1: you'd like to see me discuss people you would like
Speaker 1: me to bring on. As always, you can reach me
Speaker 1: at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. In the meantime,
Speaker 1: this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making
Speaker 1: the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast.
Speaker 1: If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach
Speaker 1: me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast
Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia,
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