1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:09,240 Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning, 2 00:00:10,400 --> 00:00:15,800 Speaker 1: This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's 3 00:00:15,840 --> 00:00:19,000 Speaker 1: episode will be a longer one part of my series 4 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:22,080 Speaker 1: where I interview fascinating people about how they manage their 5 00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:24,840 Speaker 1: time and how all of us can take our days 6 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:29,319 Speaker 1: from great to awesome. So I am so excited to 7 00:00:29,440 --> 00:00:33,519 Speaker 1: welcome Anna Goldfarm to Before Breakfast today. Anna is the 8 00:00:33,560 --> 00:00:37,080 Speaker 1: author of the book Modern Friendship, on how to nurture 9 00:00:37,120 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: our most valued connections. So Anna, welcome to the show. 10 00:00:40,720 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 2: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here. 11 00:00:43,800 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: Well, why don't you tell our listeners a little bit 12 00:00:46,360 --> 00:00:46,800 Speaker 1: about you. 13 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm a journalist and I've reported on friendships, relationships, 14 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 2: and pop psychology for nearly a decade. I've really gotten 15 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 2: to dig deep with friendship, but mostly for The New 16 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 2: York Times. So from my reporting, I wanted something more 17 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:10,800 Speaker 2: comprehensive to describe the strange waters that we're swimming in, 18 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 2: Like I really wanted to capture in a much deeper 19 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 2: way than an article of Guys, here's what's going on. 20 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 2: I want to orient everyone like, Okay, this is the 21 00:01:21,200 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 2: game we're playing. It is very different rules than any 22 00:01:25,319 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 2: other time before in history. So here you go. Here's 23 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 2: what's up. 24 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,959 Speaker 1: So are I mean, are we imaginating are people feeling 25 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: more isolated or lonely than in the past, And what's 26 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,720 Speaker 1: going on? What has changed with friendship to make that happen. 27 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, we have a lot of sociological factors that 28 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 2: do not work in our favor. We live in a 29 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:51,320 Speaker 2: society where we're more butterflies. We have unlimited choice on 30 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,840 Speaker 2: who we can befriend and who we can associate with. 31 00:01:54,560 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 2: But also it's easier to shed those connections because we 32 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 2: don't stay in one place for too long. And you know, 33 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,480 Speaker 2: our grandparents, their social lives were more like an oak 34 00:02:05,520 --> 00:02:08,679 Speaker 2: tree with deep roots where they stayed put and they 35 00:02:09,040 --> 00:02:11,520 Speaker 2: knew their communities. They didn't have as much choice of food. 36 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,040 Speaker 2: Of a friend, they usually had to be someone that 37 00:02:14,160 --> 00:02:17,840 Speaker 2: look that came from their economic background, looked like them. 38 00:02:19,680 --> 00:02:22,440 Speaker 2: So it's just pros and cons. It's not saying like 39 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:25,800 Speaker 2: it was better back then, and it's you know, and 40 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,480 Speaker 2: it's not comparing. It's just different, different pros and cons. 41 00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,040 Speaker 2: And I know people sense that things are different. They 42 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 2: probably sense that it's so much harder to keep friendships 43 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 2: going than when they were younger, and it's not their imagination. 44 00:02:41,040 --> 00:02:44,919 Speaker 2: They have a collection of friends they've made from different 45 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:48,120 Speaker 2: parts of their life, but they only share common history 46 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:49,600 Speaker 2: with us, not with each other. 47 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:53,560 Speaker 1: So it's harder to have sort of a group of friends, yeah, 48 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:56,200 Speaker 1: because you sort of are the middle of a spoke 49 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: of a wheel. You're the hub of the wheel on 50 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: their spokes. I think I've seen you use analogically, and. 51 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:04,840 Speaker 2: You know, it's just a lot harder to bring different 52 00:03:05,000 --> 00:03:06,840 Speaker 2: different people in your life. Two of my best friends 53 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:09,280 Speaker 2: didn't even know each other until my book release party. 54 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,480 Speaker 2: So my advice, release a book, have a party that 55 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 2: everyone can finally meet. 56 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 1: Bring everyone. It's like a wedding or something. Right like 57 00:03:17,840 --> 00:03:19,959 Speaker 1: the wedding, you realize, like all these people they know you, 58 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:21,760 Speaker 1: but they don't know everyone else. 59 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's. 60 00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 1: A it's a little strange to think about it that way, 61 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 1: but you you know, you focus on sort of the 62 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:34,160 Speaker 1: practicalities of how you can build relationships. And as we 63 00:03:34,160 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: were talking before, you just mentioned something we always like 64 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,520 Speaker 1: to talk about routines on this show. And you have 65 00:03:38,600 --> 00:03:42,360 Speaker 1: now have a morning routine of talking to your sister, 66 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: which obviously family members can be friends. I wonder if 67 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:48,520 Speaker 1: you could talk a little bit about how that routine 68 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:51,280 Speaker 1: came to be and how that has been important in 69 00:03:51,320 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: your life. 70 00:03:51,760 --> 00:03:54,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. I you know, I don't think my sister will 71 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,000 Speaker 2: mind me sharing this because I've talked about this before, 72 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 2: and also it's true, so it stry to argue with 73 00:04:01,200 --> 00:04:05,800 Speaker 2: the truth. But my sister and I really had trouble 74 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 2: finding common ground for a long time. You know, she 75 00:04:13,360 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 2: got married and then started having children. I got married 76 00:04:18,000 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 2: and decided that I was not going to have children, 77 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 2: and we just really had to disconnect over just our lives, 78 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 2: like our different roles that were choosing, and if we 79 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:31,640 Speaker 2: could find common ground with that. I started reporting on 80 00:04:31,680 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 2: friendships around twenty seventeen for the New York Times, and 81 00:04:36,800 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 2: in the course of my reporting, I met this woman, 82 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 2: Shasta Nelson, who's an incredible friendship expert. She's an OG, 83 00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:48,160 Speaker 2: she's brilliant, the real deal. And what I learned from 84 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:54,800 Speaker 2: Shasta's work is that friendships require three things positivity, consistency, 85 00:04:55,000 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 2: and vulnerability. So I started applying that to my relationship 86 00:05:00,720 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 2: with my sister, where you know, it was rocky, and 87 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 2: the first thing I did was consistency of she know, 88 00:05:07,200 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 2: she has these small children, So I said, why don't 89 00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 2: I come over every weekend and I come help with 90 00:05:13,040 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 2: your kids? So I had the consistency I'm coming over 91 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 2: every Saturday. Then I worked on positivity of you know, 92 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:20,799 Speaker 2: I saw this slip glass. I thought I'd be pretty 93 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 2: for you. I thought this would be a good shade 94 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 2: for you. Here I bought you like a little some 95 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 2: cookies at the market, like just little treats. And that 96 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 2: led to vulnerability of what's going on with you? Like, 97 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 2: what's really going on with your your you know, what 98 00:05:35,760 --> 00:05:38,880 Speaker 2: are you struggling with? How can I help? And those 99 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 2: three things, paying attention to them completely completely transformed our 100 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:49,799 Speaker 2: relationship and part of the I've maintained the consistency every weekend, 101 00:05:49,839 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 2: I still go over, and she started calling me every 102 00:05:52,680 --> 00:05:55,839 Speaker 2: morning after dropping the kids off to school, when she's 103 00:05:55,880 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 2: driving home, she'll call me. So we've created our own 104 00:05:59,680 --> 00:06:03,840 Speaker 2: routine means, but you had to lay the I had 105 00:06:03,880 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 2: to lay the groundwork for those routines to stick. 106 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, because friendship, it turns out, takes work and it 107 00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: takes time, and of course that is something that many 108 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:18,200 Speaker 1: people struggle with a lot. And so let's talk about 109 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: that a little. I mean a lot of people say 110 00:06:19,839 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 1: like I want more friends, or I want a better 111 00:06:21,680 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: social life or something like that, but that's kind of 112 00:06:24,400 --> 00:06:27,679 Speaker 1: a vague hope. I mean, what what are people getting 113 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: at when they say that. 114 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,600 Speaker 2: Well, studies show that people think they'd be happier with 115 00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 2: more friends, But what actually makes us happier is being 116 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 2: considered someone's best friend. And that's because that's a when 117 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,120 Speaker 2: someone identifies us and it says, oh my gosh, she's 118 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:49,640 Speaker 2: my best friend, it reinforces our you know, that someone 119 00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:53,360 Speaker 2: judges our good character and our sees our integrity and 120 00:06:53,400 --> 00:06:55,840 Speaker 2: sees our inner beauty, and that gives us the self 121 00:06:55,960 --> 00:06:59,680 Speaker 2: esteem and confidence that we think having more friends would 122 00:06:59,680 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 2: give us. Yes, I mean our phones are full of 123 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,239 Speaker 2: names of people that we love, but it doesn't feel 124 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 2: that amazing, like as amazing as you think it would feel. 125 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:10,680 Speaker 2: You know, our social media. You open it up, Oh, 126 00:07:10,680 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 2: here's all my friends, and it doesn't really feel like anything. 127 00:07:14,520 --> 00:07:16,880 Speaker 2: It kind of just feel, if anything, it feels negative 128 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,840 Speaker 2: of well, look what they're doing and I'm not included. 129 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 2: Why wasn't I included? All they're all on a trip. 130 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:24,960 Speaker 2: I haven't been on the trip. It's just like it's 131 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 2: none of it makes feel that good. So what a 132 00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:36,960 Speaker 2: better strategy is to be a dynamic teammate, a dynamite 133 00:07:36,960 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 2: team meat to three to five people, Like, go back 134 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:43,720 Speaker 2: to basics. Really, you know, when you think about when 135 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 2: you were happiest with your friendships, it might have been 136 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:48,680 Speaker 2: high school or college where you just had a few 137 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 2: friends and you just focused on them and that was enough. 138 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 2: You know, you weren't trying to keep all these plates 139 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 2: in the air of every old coworker and old roommate 140 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:01,800 Speaker 2: and childhood best friend. Like you weren't trying to keep 141 00:08:01,800 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 2: all these plates spinning. So go back to basics. Pick 142 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 2: a few people and be wonderful to them. Excellent. 143 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: Well, we're going to take a short break and then 144 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:21,240 Speaker 1: be back with Anna Goldfarb talking more things friendship. Well, 145 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:23,720 Speaker 1: I am back. This is one of the longer episodes 146 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: of Before Breakfast. I am talking with Anna Goldfarb, who 147 00:08:26,800 --> 00:08:31,320 Speaker 1: is a friendship expert author of the book Modern Friendship. So, Anna, 148 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:33,200 Speaker 1: one of the things you've said that I've found so 149 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: interesting is you know, you're like, I want more friends, 150 00:08:37,080 --> 00:08:38,959 Speaker 1: but what you actually want is more people to do 151 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 1: X with. Like that friendship start out at least based 152 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,760 Speaker 1: on shared activities. Can you talk a little bit about that. 153 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:51,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a huge misconception about friendship that it should 154 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 2: just go on forever because because there's affection there, people 155 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 2: should just make time in their schedule because you've known 156 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,720 Speaker 2: each other so long, there's such great affection for one another. 157 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 2: But that's not actually how humans work. Humans work, And 158 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 2: I learned this theory something called choice theory, developed by 159 00:09:10,120 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 2: doctor William Glasser in the nineteen sixties, and choice theory 160 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:19,760 Speaker 2: says that we all have five inherent genetic needs and 161 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:26,200 Speaker 2: their survival, power, love and belonging, freedom, which is like 162 00:09:26,240 --> 00:09:30,959 Speaker 2: self expression, and fun. Those are the reasons we do everything. 163 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 2: So when you think about your friendships, and if it's 164 00:09:36,240 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 2: not particular, if it's not helping your survival, you know, 165 00:09:40,280 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 2: in a real way, if it's not helping your power 166 00:09:42,640 --> 00:09:46,480 Speaker 2: in a real way, if there's not really love and belonging, 167 00:09:46,520 --> 00:09:51,280 Speaker 2: you're not in any groups together. You know, you're married, 168 00:09:51,320 --> 00:09:56,600 Speaker 2: you get love from other people more primarily more freedom. 169 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 2: If you don't really do anything creative or you feel 170 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 2: like you're yourself, that could be attending a pride parade, 171 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:05,719 Speaker 2: It could be really any kind of self expression and 172 00:10:05,760 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 2: five fun. If it's not fun, not going to be 173 00:10:08,280 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 2: time to do it. So when you look at friendships 174 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,440 Speaker 2: through that lens, it can help explain why you pull 175 00:10:15,520 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 2: away from friendships but gravitate towards others because friendships that 176 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,560 Speaker 2: help us with those needs were more likely to make 177 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:22,920 Speaker 2: time for. 178 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:27,400 Speaker 1: And so maybe you're looking for a friend to run 179 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:30,360 Speaker 1: with or a friend to go to the movies with, 180 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:32,600 Speaker 1: and so you kind of need to filter through the 181 00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:36,000 Speaker 1: people that are in your life with a focus on that. 182 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, or power is your job. Like a lot of friends. 183 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 2: If you're not in the same industry, that can be challenging. 184 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 2: It's like, well, what else do we have that you 185 00:10:45,120 --> 00:10:50,120 Speaker 2: can help me with? As I get older, I've been creating. 186 00:10:50,200 --> 00:10:52,680 Speaker 2: I've been creating more friendships and seeking out more friendships 187 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 2: with other journalists and authors because they get the challenges 188 00:10:57,200 --> 00:10:58,920 Speaker 2: of the industry and then we can it's easier to 189 00:10:58,960 --> 00:11:01,280 Speaker 2: form a friendship with peopleeople who care about the things 190 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:06,080 Speaker 2: that you care about. And with meeting you know, we 191 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 2: have our spouse, that's a lot of our love and 192 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 2: belonging in time, so friends just take on a different sheet, 193 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:16,280 Speaker 2: like it's an own brain. They can I go like 194 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:19,120 Speaker 2: one shade to the other. As you become more things, 195 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:24,679 Speaker 2: the more people friends just just have to have to transform. 196 00:11:25,880 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: Well, let's talk about issuing invitations that are more likely 197 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,000 Speaker 1: to get a yes because you have some guidelines. I 198 00:11:33,000 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: think a lot of people are just like, let's get 199 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,439 Speaker 1: together sometime, and that's that's a terrible invitation. So what 200 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: mistakes are people making and how can we do this 201 00:11:40,480 --> 00:11:42,120 Speaker 1: invitation these invitations better. 202 00:11:42,160 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 2: The biggest mistake I see is that people spend zero 203 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 2: thought on how their invitation lands in someone else's phone 204 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:55,760 Speaker 2: or inbox. They just rattle off low effort like hey 205 00:11:55,800 --> 00:11:57,520 Speaker 2: we should hang out, Hey I miss you, I want 206 00:11:57,520 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 2: to see you. But that creates a lot of work 207 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:03,760 Speaker 2: on the part of the recipient of well, when what 208 00:12:03,840 --> 00:12:06,559 Speaker 2: are we doing? Where are we getting together? And then 209 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:10,520 Speaker 2: it's like oh, then the grooms come out. It's like, oh, no, 210 00:12:10,679 --> 00:12:13,120 Speaker 2: I got you drop this bomb on my lap of 211 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 2: you want to see me. I don't know why you 212 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 2: want to see me, you know, I got to figure 213 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 2: out the details. It just creates a lot of work, 214 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 2: a lot of mental work that you that you may 215 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:28,240 Speaker 2: not have intended for the recipient to do. It was 216 00:12:28,280 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 2: more just hey, we should get together, and it's like, 217 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,840 Speaker 2: what do you mean get together? Why? So what we 218 00:12:33,880 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 2: can do is frontloader invitations with the why so the 219 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,959 Speaker 2: other person can better determine if this is a good 220 00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 2: use of their time, and what that looks like is 221 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:47,000 Speaker 2: you know, I'll take an example from my own life. 222 00:12:47,040 --> 00:12:50,200 Speaker 2: I recently reached out to a woman who works in 223 00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:52,680 Speaker 2: media in my neighborhood and I was like, oh my gosh, 224 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:54,360 Speaker 2: you live in Philly. I live in Philly. We're both 225 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:57,720 Speaker 2: in media. Let's get together. That was the why of 226 00:12:58,000 --> 00:12:59,480 Speaker 2: this is what I want to see you. We have 227 00:12:59,600 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 2: the same industry. And we got together for a happy 228 00:13:03,440 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 2: hour and I asked her what are some of her 229 00:13:05,240 --> 00:13:08,960 Speaker 2: pain points living in Philly and she said, well, most 230 00:13:09,000 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 2: of my friends have moved away and it's been really 231 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 2: hard the past year. Like my best friend moved, they 232 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 2: all moved over the world. And I was like, you 233 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 2: know what, I think you'd really like my two other friends. 234 00:13:20,520 --> 00:13:22,800 Speaker 2: So I went to my two other friends and said, hey, 235 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:25,920 Speaker 2: I met this great woman. Let's all have a happy hour. 236 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 2: I want you all to meet. I think you guys 237 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:32,319 Speaker 2: would really hit it off. I'm giving reasons as I'm 238 00:13:32,320 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 2: telling the story, I'm peppering reasons for everything I'm doing. 239 00:13:35,520 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 2: So the new friend, I invited her these women I 240 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:41,840 Speaker 2: think you'd hit it off with there in media would 241 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 2: be a cool hang and that reason was enough for 242 00:13:45,240 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 2: her to say yes. And then to my two friends, 243 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 2: they're like, oh, she sounds cool, I'd love to meet her. 244 00:13:49,960 --> 00:13:51,760 Speaker 2: So we all went out for a happy hour and 245 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:54,840 Speaker 2: it was amazing. We had a great time, and we're like, 246 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 2: let's do this regularly. Let's start it monthly hangout. So 247 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,520 Speaker 2: every step along the way we had a reason, a 248 00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 2: reason for the initial meeting, a reason to expand the 249 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,319 Speaker 2: circle so she could meet more friends in the neighborhood. 250 00:14:10,080 --> 00:14:15,040 Speaker 2: And it was a success. So you know, anyone can 251 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:20,280 Speaker 2: do this. I'm not some savant like of savant. I 252 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:24,960 Speaker 2: just give meaningful reasons that people responded to to make 253 00:14:25,000 --> 00:14:27,320 Speaker 2: them say yes, to have them not flake or bail. 254 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 2: And usually if people flake or bail, it's because the 255 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 2: reason wasn't clear, or the reason wasn't compelling to get together. 256 00:14:34,760 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: So's and I've even seen you mention giving specific times 257 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: and locations, like if you were inviting someone for coffee. 258 00:14:44,440 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: You're not just like I want to talk with you 259 00:14:46,520 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 1: about X related to our industry, which again might be 260 00:14:48,840 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: a good why, but you say, you know I could 261 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: do these three times. There's a cute place here. Does 262 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 1: any of that work for you? 263 00:14:57,000 --> 00:14:57,160 Speaker 2: Right? 264 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 1: Like to make it as easy as possible for people 265 00:15:00,200 --> 00:15:01,000 Speaker 1: to say yes, yes, And. 266 00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 2: Also it shows that you understand that this new friend 267 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 2: has a whole other life and other commitments, and it's 268 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 2: a sign of respect. It's a subtle sign of respect 269 00:15:10,560 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 2: of I respect your time. Here's what I'm asking, here's 270 00:15:14,040 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 2: the container it's in, and it will make it easier 271 00:15:18,080 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 2: for people to say yes, especially if they have children 272 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 2: or spouses, like they need to know what's the time 273 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,800 Speaker 2: coming when you're asking, I need to plan around it. 274 00:15:27,840 --> 00:15:30,600 Speaker 2: So it's like a subtle way. And I really think 275 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 2: I try to be the friend that I would love 276 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 2: to have. I would find it very respectful if someone 277 00:15:36,160 --> 00:15:39,840 Speaker 2: did that for me, so I just try to return 278 00:15:39,920 --> 00:15:41,800 Speaker 2: the favor. Well. 279 00:15:41,840 --> 00:15:44,320 Speaker 1: I like that last point because there's definitely an element 280 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:48,800 Speaker 1: there of being of service. And when you talked earlier 281 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:53,560 Speaker 1: about choosing to be a wonderful friend to the three 282 00:15:53,600 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 1: to five people, I mean part of that is being 283 00:15:57,480 --> 00:16:00,720 Speaker 1: helpful and you ask this new friend about her pain 284 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: points in Philly. I think a lot of people don't 285 00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:05,840 Speaker 1: do that naturally, So maybe you can talk about what 286 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:06,720 Speaker 1: that looks like. 287 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 2: Well, it can really be like what you know. I 288 00:16:10,920 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 2: in a clunky way, it's saying like how can I 289 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 2: help you? But in a more subtle way, it's just 290 00:16:17,320 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 2: listening to how how do you find living here? Like? 291 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 2: Are what are some like anything you've been struggling with. 292 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 2: I wouldn't be that overt or explicit, but I would 293 00:16:27,000 --> 00:16:29,320 Speaker 2: just listen and feel like, tell me what's going on, 294 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 2: how's your job? How has your social life been? And 295 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 2: just listen for those bids of well I'm struggling at 296 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 2: this area like I'm I'm really having a tough time 297 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 2: here and being like, oh, here's how I can help. 298 00:16:42,880 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 2: I would love to help. Does this sound interesting to you? 299 00:16:47,080 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 2: And it's really about being an excellent team And it's 300 00:16:51,760 --> 00:16:54,840 Speaker 2: very careful not to dominate and not to say well 301 00:16:54,840 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 2: here's what you should do. You should meet my friends, 302 00:16:56,800 --> 00:16:59,240 Speaker 2: They're going to be great, come over Thursday. Well it's 303 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 2: like that's dominie. It's a better strategy to say, hey, 304 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 2: I really think I can help here. Would you want 305 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 2: to get together with some friends, I can see if 306 00:17:07,840 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 2: they're open to it and have them involved in the process. 307 00:17:12,560 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 2: I think that's a miscalculation people make is to show 308 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:19,199 Speaker 2: their love. They're like, I'll do it, I'll solve it, 309 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 2: i'll take it on, I'll fix it. And people don't 310 00:17:22,800 --> 00:17:25,720 Speaker 2: want that from their friends. It's a pure relationship of equals. 311 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:30,320 Speaker 2: So to be really mindful of the power dynamics. 312 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,120 Speaker 1: I love that image of being a teammate. I mean, 313 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 1: we all want teammates in life. But one last thing 314 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 1: about invitations. Obviously sometimes people don't respond. You talk a 315 00:17:40,640 --> 00:17:44,360 Speaker 1: little bit about making silence meaningful. What does that mean? 316 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 2: This is a trick. This is a trick I learned 317 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 2: from my freelancing for all these top tier outlets, because 318 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 2: they don't always get back to you right away, and 319 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:54,640 Speaker 2: I need to preserve my sanity so I'm not held 320 00:17:54,720 --> 00:17:58,159 Speaker 2: hostage by these silences. And we can apply this to 321 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,680 Speaker 2: our friendships too. And the way it works is if 322 00:18:00,720 --> 00:18:04,920 Speaker 2: you have friends that are exceptionally busy or they're a 323 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,360 Speaker 2: little bit harder to pin down, they don't always get 324 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:10,320 Speaker 2: back to you. You can say, hey, i'd love to 325 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:12,479 Speaker 2: see you. Do you want to go to the forty 326 00:18:12,600 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 2: showing of Nightmare before Christmas, which is something my friend 327 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 2: just went to. And if I don't hear from you 328 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 2: by noon, all of a sudden, you can't go by 329 00:18:21,640 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 2: saying how you'll interpret the silence. You you're taking power 330 00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 2: and you're giving a kindness to the other person. Of 331 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 2: I understand you may not have time to get back 332 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,879 Speaker 2: to me. Here's how I'll interpret your non answer, because 333 00:18:38,880 --> 00:18:41,720 Speaker 2: a non answer is an answer, so you're just being 334 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:44,960 Speaker 2: you know, saying it out loud. Of I will interpret 335 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 2: your non answer this in this way, and then you 336 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 2: can say I'll be in touch later next week to 337 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 2: find lunch plans like you can. It's not going to 338 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 2: be weird. The goal is to reduce resentment and reduce 339 00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:00,720 Speaker 2: these pain points and with certain friends where they can't 340 00:19:00,720 --> 00:19:03,200 Speaker 2: get back to you right away, so keep it moving, 341 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:07,159 Speaker 2: be flexible, and take control. If I don't hear from you, 342 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 2: I'll assume this. 343 00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 1: That sounds good. All right, Well, we're going to take 344 00:19:10,840 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 1: one more quick ad break and we'll be back with 345 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: a little bit more of Anna's personal time management tips. Well, 346 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:26,760 Speaker 1: I am back talking with Anna Goldfarb about modern friendships 347 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: and ways that busy people can make space in their 348 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: life for friends and do it so efficiently, you know, 349 00:19:34,160 --> 00:19:37,359 Speaker 1: make things work without a whole lot of terrible back 350 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:42,239 Speaker 1: and forth, which can cause many plans to die. But 351 00:19:43,880 --> 00:19:47,760 Speaker 1: let's talk a little bit about your own life. What 352 00:19:47,960 --> 00:19:50,400 Speaker 1: are some of the things that you are doing now 353 00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: to make yourself more efficient or productive. 354 00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:57,880 Speaker 2: Well, the main thing is, and my book can help 355 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:02,800 Speaker 2: walk people through this, is picking your elite tier of people. 356 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:07,320 Speaker 2: I cannot be the same level a friend to everyone 357 00:20:07,320 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 2: I've ever met in my life. It really is picking 358 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 2: a handful of people. I call it your Jacuzi tier, 359 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 2: your Dacuzi friends, and commit to prioritizing these people, being 360 00:20:21,000 --> 00:20:24,879 Speaker 2: in contact with these people and seeing them regularly a 361 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 2: few times a month, and from there, once I knew 362 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 2: sort of who's on the shopping list, to put it 363 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 2: in a sort of crude way, it makes things so 364 00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:40,560 Speaker 2: much easier. Like other connections are a bonus and they're 365 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:44,919 Speaker 2: and I know how to regard them. But it's not 366 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:49,280 Speaker 2: as overwhelming of how am I going to juggle all 367 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:52,639 Speaker 2: of my responsibilities and obligations. It's like I have a plan, 368 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,480 Speaker 2: I have a strategy. These are the people and I've 369 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,159 Speaker 2: told them you're my Jacuzi friend. Here's what this means. 370 00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,159 Speaker 2: It means if you text me or call me, I 371 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 2: will do everything I can to reply or write back 372 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:06,720 Speaker 2: as soon as I can. It means we can celebrate 373 00:21:06,760 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 2: birthdays together. Means we can celebrate the holidays together. Means 374 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:17,200 Speaker 2: we can have our own rituals. And that's simplified things 375 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 2: because I know where to put my efforts. I highly 376 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 2: encourage everyone to really sit down and make a list 377 00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,679 Speaker 2: or if you need a little help, my book can 378 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 2: help you of who are these people to you? And 379 00:21:31,280 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 2: are these good choices? That's something you don't hear a 380 00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:37,120 Speaker 2: lot when it comes to friendship, like, am I making 381 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:40,720 Speaker 2: good choices? Am I picking good people? So my book 382 00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 2: can help you evaluate, evaluate the kinds of people you're 383 00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 2: picking and making sure that they're appropriate for that level. 384 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:54,880 Speaker 1: Excellent? And what's something you have done recently to take 385 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,080 Speaker 1: a day from great to awesome? 386 00:21:57,240 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, Well I have this actually, me and 387 00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 2: one of my best friends. We call it a Terrific 388 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:04,040 Speaker 2: Lady Day. And that's sort of where you can steal 389 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,560 Speaker 2: away for a few hours and buy a new random lipstick, 390 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:10,800 Speaker 2: get like that kale lemonade from a hip city of 391 00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:14,479 Speaker 2: veg and just live a great life and kind of 392 00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:19,360 Speaker 2: you know, bop around. I need a terrific lady bees. 393 00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 2: And it doesn't even need to be like this flashy thing, 394 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,000 Speaker 2: just a few little old treat a little I'm just 395 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 2: on my own. I'm not gonna, you know, worry about 396 00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:31,159 Speaker 2: anyone else, and it's gonna keep my eyes on my 397 00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:33,320 Speaker 2: own paper and just do what I want to do 398 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 2: and listen terrific lady ds. Embrace it. When you're having 399 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 2: like a crummy week, just be like, you know, I 400 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 2: need a terrific lady day. I need to go, you know, 401 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:48,560 Speaker 2: get my nails done and then I'll get a little coffee, 402 00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,920 Speaker 2: like whatever you need these small moments. Also, I want 403 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,119 Speaker 2: to say we it feels so good to help others, 404 00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 2: but we can help people in a way that makes 405 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:02,840 Speaker 2: sense for us. So it really makes me. It turns 406 00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:04,920 Speaker 2: a great a good day into a great day when 407 00:23:04,960 --> 00:23:09,600 Speaker 2: I realize I'm suited to help a friend with something 408 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 2: that they need, Like my new friend who wanted to 409 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 2: make more friends, I'm like, I can help, I can 410 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:21,600 Speaker 2: do this, and that really boosts our self esteem. This 411 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:24,040 Speaker 2: is where those good feelings from friends come from is 412 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:27,440 Speaker 2: when you realize you have skills, you have a network, 413 00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:31,880 Speaker 2: and you can help others. It's a cheap hit. It's dopamine, 414 00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 2: but now it's like a cheap bit of dopamine. But hey, 415 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:36,760 Speaker 2: we're all here for a good time. 416 00:23:37,880 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 1: Well, I don't think helping others is a cheap hit 417 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,359 Speaker 1: of dopamine. I mean, you know, there are much cheaper 418 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:47,959 Speaker 1: hits one could imagine. So, yes, helping helping others is 419 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,560 Speaker 1: always good and something most of us should focus more 420 00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 1: time on in general. So, and where can our listeners 421 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:57,960 Speaker 1: find you? Where are you out in the world that 422 00:23:58,000 --> 00:24:00,880 Speaker 1: we can locate your work and get to know you more. 423 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:04,879 Speaker 2: Yeah, you can find me at Anna Goldfarb on Instagram. 424 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 2: I've sort of a band on Twitter. I feel thank everyone, 425 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:10,479 Speaker 2: all right, all sort of And I forget that threads 426 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:15,160 Speaker 2: exist often, so listen Instagram still here, I'm on it, 427 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 2: And I have a newsletter on substack called Friendship Explained. 428 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 2: That's Anna Goldfarb dot sa substack dot com and I 429 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:26,000 Speaker 2: have a lot of fun over there. So please join 430 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 2: me if you want to just just want some some 431 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,560 Speaker 2: cool discussion and analysis about my friendships are a dumpster fire, 432 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,360 Speaker 2: but yours don't have to be. Friendships in general are, 433 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 2: but yours are going to be magnificent. 434 00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: Yours are going to be amazing. So we're in the jacuzzie, 435 00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 1: not in the dumpster fire. Get our metaphors right here, 436 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 1: all right, awesome? Well Anna, thank you so much for 437 00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:52,199 Speaker 1: joining us, and thank you to everyone for listening. I 438 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,280 Speaker 1: welcome feedback on these longer episodes. Ideas you have or 439 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 1: you'd like to see me discuss people you would like 440 00:24:58,359 --> 00:25:01,199 Speaker 1: me to bring on. As always, you can reach me 441 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:05,120 Speaker 1: at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. In the meantime, 442 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: this is Laura. Thanks for listening, and here's to making 443 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 1: the most of our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. 444 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 1: If you've got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach 445 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:32,160 Speaker 1: me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast 446 00:25:32,200 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: is a production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, 447 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 1: please visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you 448 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:41,879 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows.