1 00:00:04,000 --> 00:00:07,120 Speaker 1: Hey, this is any hands and stuff. Welcome to stuff. 2 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: I've never told your production of I Heart Radios how 3 00:00:09,160 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 1: stuff works. So was a third attempt. Well, it is 4 00:00:20,840 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: an exciting day. So perhaps that's why we're making your 5 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: mistakes because it is the final female first of twenty 6 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: nineteen of a decade. Yes, which means you're once again joined. 7 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: I for our good friend and co workers. Thank you. 8 00:00:38,800 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: I didn't even think that this was the last one 9 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 1: of the decade, and I'm like, oh, this is the 10 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:43,480 Speaker 1: last one of the year, but no, it's a whole 11 00:00:43,520 --> 00:00:49,280 Speaker 1: decade that's ending right now, right this very Yes, time 12 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:53,840 Speaker 1: compresses in my world really easily. Um. Yeah, I am 13 00:00:53,880 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: grateful to be here as always, so glad you're here. Yeah, 14 00:00:58,080 --> 00:01:00,320 Speaker 1: it's a bit of a mess in the studio. So 15 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:02,680 Speaker 1: much peanut butter. There's a lot of peanut butter, a 16 00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,240 Speaker 1: lot of beverages, a lot of beverages. But that I 17 00:01:06,240 --> 00:01:08,840 Speaker 1: feel like that's kind of status quo part of course 18 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:11,720 Speaker 1: when you come use Well, this season is about abundance 19 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: as well, It's true, and we're collecting gifts, so the 20 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:21,120 Speaker 1: more the merrier. Correct, Yes, thank you punch peanut butter. 21 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:24,440 Speaker 1: See are you counch peanut butter. Is the thing is 22 00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:28,720 Speaker 1: is that going to somebody's Christmas present? You know? Is 23 00:01:28,760 --> 00:01:30,800 Speaker 1: that going to something? I could do this because through 24 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:35,520 Speaker 1: various sponsorships, I now have no exaggeration a creative peanut butter. 25 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: So I mean, I guess if I want to be 26 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,360 Speaker 1: really lazy in my gift giving, I could just start 27 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:45,520 Speaker 1: handing out peanut butter. I'm going to give it to 28 00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: a food kitchen. Yes, yes, yes, um, and we are 29 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:57,080 Speaker 1: very excited to have you as always eaves. Um it 30 00:01:57,240 --> 00:02:01,360 Speaker 1: is this is our final final chord of the year. 31 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: Is it will congrats to y'all people to rest a 32 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:09,800 Speaker 1: little right right. I've had people stopped like, yeah, so 33 00:02:09,840 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: we're recording this weekend. I was like, oh no, oh no, yeah, 34 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,520 Speaker 1: it's I guess there's two weeks left in the year 35 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:18,960 Speaker 1: as we record this. So this is pretty good. I'm 36 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 1: pretty happy. I think we did well. Yeah. Yes, And 37 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: I'm also pretty excited to talk about the person not Todays. 38 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 1: I am too. I'm really excited to talk about Bungoo. 39 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:32,720 Speaker 1: Who's who we're talking about today. Um, We're going way 40 00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,240 Speaker 1: back in history for this one, yes, almost to the 41 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:38,639 Speaker 1: BC Year's kind of dipping there for a little bit. 42 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 1: I'm always excited to go into the VCS, you know, 43 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,120 Speaker 1: especially when we get into the twenties. Let's look all 44 00:02:46,160 --> 00:02:49,839 Speaker 1: the way back. Let's go all the way back. Yes. 45 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:56,359 Speaker 1: And she's known as China's first female historian. Yes, China's 46 00:02:56,400 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 1: first female historian, and a very influential scholar in general 47 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 1: at the time. Not just female scholar, but she was 48 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:07,280 Speaker 1: also one of like the only female scholars early on, 49 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: the only female historians early on. Yeah. And I was 50 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: reading some of the stuff that she wrote, and it's fascinating, 51 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:23,400 Speaker 1: isn't it. Yes, isn't it fascinating, especially to look at 52 00:03:23,480 --> 00:03:27,480 Speaker 1: it from my point of view as an American, as 53 00:03:27,480 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: an American woman living in I'm already ahead of myself. Yeah, 54 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: but it's um. Once the twentieth century rolled around, people 55 00:03:36,240 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: like viewed it a lot differently than they did during 56 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: her time, which she was born in forty five, so 57 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 1: early early ideas. Many people had a lot of thoughts 58 00:03:47,240 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 1: on over the years. Yes, And as we always say 59 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:54,880 Speaker 1: on these these episodes, these females first context is always 60 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: really important when we're talking about this. And the spoiler 61 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: not to confuse anybody, she wrote things about how basically 62 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,680 Speaker 1: how to be a woman in China, and so it's 63 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: just an amazing window into what it was like back then. 64 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: And yeah, now with our eyes so different, Yeah, well 65 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,040 Speaker 1: we're I mean, I'm not a historian, and I imagine 66 00:04:18,040 --> 00:04:20,279 Speaker 1: a lot of people here aren't historians. So it's a 67 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:24,920 Speaker 1: really interesting as a civilian, non historian to look at 68 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 1: things that happened this long ago and in cultures outside 69 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 1: of my own that I'm not typically studying, and like 70 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: developing my own perspective around that and learning a lot 71 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 1: more about it. It's so easy to get caught up 72 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,719 Speaker 1: in the way that we think today. So yeah, once 73 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 1: the twentieth century rolled around, the views on her started 74 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 1: getting a lot more complicated. Like women started thinking a 75 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: lot differently around that time, women's lip movements popped up, 76 00:04:49,720 --> 00:04:51,919 Speaker 1: and people who were in that realm saw her as 77 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:56,680 Speaker 1: an important scholar and figure in women's education before then, 78 00:04:56,720 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: and then later on others started thinking that she was 79 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 1: perpetuating the oppression of women. Yeah, so it's a complicated history. 80 00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 1: And I also think that on the other hand, and 81 00:05:11,480 --> 00:05:15,760 Speaker 1: in conversations beyond just ones about history, that we can 82 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 1: get in a space where we're like, Okay, because this 83 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:21,400 Speaker 1: happened at this time, or because this happened in this context, 84 00:05:21,400 --> 00:05:23,760 Speaker 1: that means that we can excuse those things, or like 85 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,080 Speaker 1: this person was just a person of their time, and 86 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:28,960 Speaker 1: this person was just doing the same thing that everybody 87 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:31,800 Speaker 1: else did, so that means it's excusable when it's acceptable. 88 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: So I mean, I just it's just always important obviously, 89 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:39,120 Speaker 1: always try to gain more knowledge about things, because when 90 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 1: we're more knowledgeable than we were, more able to have 91 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: nuanced and deeper conversations about things. But obviously, as we know, 92 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,599 Speaker 1: the world changes a lot, like the world changes a 93 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 1: lot in the world is also at one specific time 94 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:58,200 Speaker 1: very different everywhere. And I just think having this conversation 95 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 1: about her after we featured a lot of women who 96 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 1: are kind of without much doubt or without much hesitation 97 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 1: or without much like descriptant see our controversy, like this 98 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:15,359 Speaker 1: person did good things and contributed to feminist history in 99 00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: a positive, moralistically positive way. Like that's not how it 100 00:06:20,839 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: always was, and we had to evolve to be able 101 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 1: to get to where we are today. And it took 102 00:06:25,320 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 1: a long time before things changed from how it was 103 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,960 Speaker 1: in Bunchow's time. Well, it was literally over nineteen hundred 104 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: years ago. And then also in context, that culture has 105 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:40,280 Speaker 1: so much history even then in comparison to again when 106 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:42,320 Speaker 1: we talked about the u s, it's so young, and 107 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: like that's not relevant to where we are to what 108 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:48,000 Speaker 1: we know of the history of the land today because 109 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:51,599 Speaker 1: it's back at that point in time. This land, when 110 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:55,640 Speaker 1: we talk about America, was a completely different existence. Yeah, 111 00:06:55,680 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: the population of itself, right, And then China, China's history 112 00:07:00,080 --> 00:07:04,039 Speaker 1: just they recorded so much. There's so much recorded history 113 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:09,480 Speaker 1: in China. Let's get into Okay, let's get into buncho. 114 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,280 Speaker 1: So she was born in the town of online Fo Phone, China, 115 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: and that was around the year of forty five, and 116 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: that place was around shen Yang and Shanshi Province. That 117 00:07:21,320 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 1: was during the Eastern Han which was also known as 118 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,720 Speaker 1: the Later Han dynasty. And so one of her ancestors 119 00:07:27,760 --> 00:07:30,679 Speaker 1: made a bunch of money raising livestock after the fall 120 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:35,880 Speaker 1: of the Joo dynasty, and eventually they got money and 121 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: the family got into scholarship as well. So scholarship is 122 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 1: a huge part of her family's history, part of her elitism. 123 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 1: How they got there because a lot of the time 124 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:50,080 Speaker 1: people valued scholarship. So someone in her lineage whose story 125 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: had a big influence on her was her great aunt 126 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 1: Bungee and that was her court title. Her personal name 127 00:07:56,200 --> 00:08:00,280 Speaker 1: is not recorded, but and breathe. Bungie was a sort 128 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: of Emperor Chung and she was close to him. So 129 00:08:03,640 --> 00:08:06,360 Speaker 1: there's a story in her life that they say, like 130 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: is one of the things that made her kind of 131 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:10,040 Speaker 1: a big name, and that she once turned down writing 132 00:08:10,040 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: in his sedan chair with him when he asked so 133 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:16,000 Speaker 1: because that was against norms. She kind of like she 134 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 1: was like, no, I don't want to do it. So 135 00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,920 Speaker 1: that earned her favor as a respected woman of high 136 00:08:22,000 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: moral values and wisdom. The fact that she said no 137 00:08:25,320 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: to it, even though it was kind of like this 138 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: flashy thing that she could do, that said her decision 139 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,719 Speaker 1: could have been more practical than it was moralistic, as 140 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,400 Speaker 1: she could have just been trying to avoid revenge plots 141 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:42,400 Speaker 1: of the envious people around her. You know, survival is 142 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: important people either way. That idea of womanly humility which 143 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: show up in Buneau's work later. And so bun Biao 144 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: was Bungeau's father, and he was a scholar and an administrator. 145 00:08:58,880 --> 00:09:01,199 Speaker 1: He was really into confus Susianism, which will come back 146 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: to a little bit later. We'll talk a little about 147 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:04,839 Speaker 1: what that was, and he stuck to the moral classics. 148 00:09:05,440 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: He went through several official positions in the Han dynasty, 149 00:09:09,080 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 1: but he wasn't so hot on those, so he kind 150 00:09:11,280 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: of skipped around from one to the next, and he 151 00:09:13,760 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: favored scholarship, so he wasn't able to maintain his family's wealth. 152 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: Though I can say I have no idea what it 153 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:23,960 Speaker 1: feels like to be an elite, but I can identify 154 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: with that a lot because I just feel like I'm 155 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:30,360 Speaker 1: a person who's like, I don't care how much. But well, 156 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 1: I'm a writer, right, so I mean that's like I 157 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,400 Speaker 1: don't care how much money I make. I'm just gonna 158 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:38,440 Speaker 1: do the art thing, even though scholarship is very different. 159 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 1: But yeah. He died when Bunga was young. She had 160 00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: two older twin brothers who were Bung Chow and Bung Goo, 161 00:09:48,400 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: and Bunau drew a lot of inspiration from them. Too. 162 00:09:51,840 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: Was Too was in the military in Central Asia for 163 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:58,599 Speaker 1: over thirty years, and Goo was an avid reader and 164 00:09:58,679 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 1: a scholar who wrote holmes and researched history. Following in 165 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:07,520 Speaker 1: his father's footsteps, so she wrote poems to later, so 166 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 1: she got some inspiration from him. So she had her 167 00:10:11,080 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 1: style name Bunao style name was Hibun and her given 168 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 1: name was g And she had this love for reading, 169 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:19,960 Speaker 1: so as we know, that's something that's really big in 170 00:10:20,000 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 1: her upbringing and in her history. She her parents made 171 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: sure that she was really well educated. So she was 172 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:31,679 Speaker 1: taught Confucianism, which is a system of social and ethical 173 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: philosophy that originated in China, and it really stressed the 174 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:39,920 Speaker 1: importance of correct behavior and loyalty and obedience to hierarchy. 175 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: And obviously, I want to say that I'm I'm really 176 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: reducing this like it's a lot more to it. We 177 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:47,959 Speaker 1: don't have time for that, clearly, and I'm nor am 178 00:10:47,960 --> 00:10:52,319 Speaker 1: i Confucianism expert. It also stressed humanus and social harmony. 179 00:10:52,360 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: So while it was a lot about social rituals and 180 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 1: conformity kind of on the surface, it was also about 181 00:10:58,240 --> 00:11:04,199 Speaker 1: building contents and character over lifetime. Punjab was also taught Taoism, 182 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,239 Speaker 1: which was a Chinese philosophy that was born from observing 183 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 1: the natural world, and it really emphasized being in step 184 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: or in line or in tune with the Tao or 185 00:11:13,040 --> 00:11:16,439 Speaker 1: the natural order of the universe. So it wasn't necessarily 186 00:11:16,480 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: about strict rituals like Confucianism was. But she was she 187 00:11:20,640 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 1: was educated. She was her parents were made sure that 188 00:11:22,559 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: they gave her, you know, a good education growing up, 189 00:11:26,840 --> 00:11:29,560 Speaker 1: and she learned to write. She learned about history, like 190 00:11:29,559 --> 00:11:32,319 Speaker 1: I said earlier, she learned about poetry and the classics 191 00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:35,840 Speaker 1: and those She wrote a lot of poetry. Few of 192 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:39,120 Speaker 1: her poems still exist, though you can read some of them. 193 00:11:39,160 --> 00:11:41,440 Speaker 1: She wrote court poetry a lot, and a lot of 194 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: it got into metaphysical stuff later on, as people were 195 00:11:45,080 --> 00:11:49,000 Speaker 1: gearing their poetry towards that others who were writing poetry. 196 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: She was often also called to court to teach women 197 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,559 Speaker 1: in the palace, and she taught them poetry, history and literature. 198 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:01,640 Speaker 1: And she was also given access to the Imperial Library, 199 00:12:01,640 --> 00:12:05,080 Speaker 1: which was something that not everybody got, but a lot 200 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:10,680 Speaker 1: of important works in there, obviously, and it was important. 201 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,400 Speaker 1: As I said earlier, she did court poetry because it 202 00:12:13,440 --> 00:12:16,600 Speaker 1: was important to mark things that happened in court life 203 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,640 Speaker 1: with poetry. And the Emperor was a fan of her work, 204 00:12:20,480 --> 00:12:24,319 Speaker 1: and so she wrote it some and Bungeau also advised 205 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:27,960 Speaker 1: Empress Dowager Doom on affairs of state, though much of 206 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: the advice she gave is unknown because it wasn't recorded. 207 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:34,520 Speaker 1: It was happening in private, and she got married around 208 00:12:34,559 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: the age of fourteen, but not much is known about 209 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: her husband, whose name was chaw sh Shoe, and it's 210 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:44,560 Speaker 1: known that he came from the same district as the 211 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: Bunn family, which was often the case for people in gentry. 212 00:12:48,480 --> 00:12:52,559 Speaker 1: They had several children together, but her husband died early 213 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 1: on in the marriage. She didn't get remarried, which is 214 00:12:55,559 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 1: something that comes up in her writing um, which we'll 215 00:12:59,280 --> 00:13:00,920 Speaker 1: get too later, that you had on all those moral 216 00:13:00,960 --> 00:13:03,200 Speaker 1: prescriptions which she was talking about earlier, which is going 217 00:13:03,280 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 1: to be the major chunk of this um for obvious reasons, 218 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: very very interesting, which I'm sure y'all will have thoughts 219 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:13,240 Speaker 1: on the things and that um. Even though it was 220 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:17,600 Speaker 1: not against custom for women to get remarried, they often 221 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:22,680 Speaker 1: did after their spouse died. But you know, this could 222 00:13:22,720 --> 00:13:26,000 Speaker 1: have been due to her Her not getting remarried could 223 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: have been due to her strict code of ethics, because 224 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,280 Speaker 1: she may have done so to remain loyal to her 225 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: deceased husband. And so this is where we get into 226 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: her writing work in her history and her history research. 227 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: Her father started working on history of the former Han, 228 00:13:44,679 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 1: this big text history on the former Han dynasty, and 229 00:13:49,120 --> 00:13:51,959 Speaker 1: so the former Han dynasty was the first two hundred 230 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: years of the Han dynasty when Chanan was the capital 231 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:59,120 Speaker 1: of the empire, and her brother Baron Gou continued work 232 00:13:59,200 --> 00:14:02,680 Speaker 1: on the history. After her father died and Bung Goo 233 00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: also died, Bile working on it, and from that point 234 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: Bungao took over the task and she wrote some of 235 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 1: the last parts of it and did some of the 236 00:14:11,240 --> 00:14:16,680 Speaker 1: final editing. Even though her exact extent of contribution to 237 00:14:16,720 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: the work has been debated by some scholars. Some have 238 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,280 Speaker 1: said that she given her the credit of co authoring it, 239 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:23,640 Speaker 1: saying she was the one who did so much work 240 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 1: because she did all these chronological tables towards the end. 241 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: But that's neither here nor there. In the larger context 242 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: of this conversation, she put in work on the books, 243 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: so she she was integral and creating the book and 244 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: getting it out to people. So the completed book was 245 00:14:38,520 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: released around one of lemon See. This book was very complicated. 246 00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: There were a lot of moving parts to it and 247 00:14:43,840 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 1: it wasn't so easy for everybody to understand, so that 248 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:49,600 Speaker 1: meant that the book had to be taught to people, 249 00:14:49,760 --> 00:14:51,640 Speaker 1: or people had to be guided along in the process 250 00:14:51,760 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 1: of trying to understand it. Um and Bungao even taught 251 00:14:56,720 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: the scholar Majong the book since it was so plex 252 00:15:00,640 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: and it required that guidance to understand it. So it's 253 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:08,120 Speaker 1: been considered by some historians the second most important or 254 00:15:08,160 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 1: most famous of China's formal dynastic histories. The second there 255 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: was this guy I can't remember his name, like CM 256 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 1: ten who wrote other imperialst dynasties before that, but under 257 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 1: the Han Emperor Wu, Confucianism became accepted as state ideology 258 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:30,400 Speaker 1: and orthodoxy. So from that point the imperial state use 259 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: that philosophy as a means to maintain law and order 260 00:15:34,360 --> 00:15:38,240 Speaker 1: and to maintain the status quo. So our favorite part, Yes, 261 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,400 Speaker 1: I'm ready admonitions for women a k A. Lessons for women, 262 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: and I'm going to try to pronounce this neogio. Yes, 263 00:15:50,160 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: it works a book um on a female propriety that 264 00:15:54,640 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: she wrote, and I call it a book, but it's 265 00:15:56,840 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: only really several pages long, so it's it's really not 266 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: long at all. So a lot is communicated in it. 267 00:16:04,160 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: A lot. I can say a lot in so many words. 268 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: Yes you can, Yes you can. UM. It kind of 269 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 1: reminds me of did you did you all do that 270 00:16:16,240 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 1: thing when you're growing up? Or you had to watch 271 00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:19,840 Speaker 1: that video and it like taught you posture, you had 272 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:23,000 Speaker 1: to put the book on top of your head, how 273 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: to be a woman essentially, you know. I never, I never. 274 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: I never watched that video, but I did go to 275 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:36,000 Speaker 1: etiquette school. It wasn't that, it wasn't terrible. I don't know. 276 00:16:36,120 --> 00:16:38,080 Speaker 1: I feel like I've brought this up with you all before, 277 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:41,000 Speaker 1: but maybe not. It wasn't. UM actually had a really 278 00:16:41,000 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: fun time in it. Um. You still remember the lessons? No, 279 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 1: well I remember one okay, so one was some more 280 00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 1: very problematic, but someone was where to put the forks 281 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: on the tables? That was one And that's the extent 282 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:57,360 Speaker 1: of what I remember. So it's kind of like a 283 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 1: cotillion type of level of stuff. Like eventually you go 284 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:03,200 Speaker 1: and graduate to become a debutante. Is that what you're 285 00:17:03,240 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: talking about? Not me, not the one that I did. Yeah, 286 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:08,480 Speaker 1: it's similar to that, but the one I did was 287 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:10,480 Speaker 1: much more like here's this video on how to be 288 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:16,639 Speaker 1: a lady and it involved posture, and yeah, really it 289 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:19,600 Speaker 1: was something that I did. Actually really appreciated the camaraderie 290 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,439 Speaker 1: that I like made with the other girls who were 291 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 1: there at the time. That's what I really liked about 292 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: it because I wasn't expecting it. I did not want 293 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:27,040 Speaker 1: to go when I did it. My mom just put 294 00:17:27,040 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 1: me in it, and I didn't have that manners. So 295 00:17:29,480 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out why she put me in it. 296 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 1: I don't remember, but um, I remember Chili from TLC 297 00:17:37,080 --> 00:17:40,560 Speaker 1: being there for whatever. She came and visited us to 298 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:42,560 Speaker 1: talk to us about girl things. I guess I don't 299 00:17:42,560 --> 00:17:43,880 Speaker 1: I don't know what girl things are, and I don't 300 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 1: know what she don't remember what she's saying, but remember 301 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:49,199 Speaker 1: her being there, So I don't know. Take it with 302 00:17:49,240 --> 00:17:51,680 Speaker 1: a grain of salt. How you feel like it's made, 303 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:53,159 Speaker 1: What kind of person you feel like it's made? Me? 304 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:57,840 Speaker 1: Because all the pieces together now, yeah, both of you 305 00:17:57,880 --> 00:18:01,879 Speaker 1: have me baffled. YEA, whether I'm a lady now or not. 306 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 1: I can't wait until you hear uh bon Bons thoughts 307 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 1: on vulgarity language become ready. I don't know that you qualify, 308 00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: I don't not many people have them are called the ladies. 309 00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,840 Speaker 1: Let's keep going. So we're gonna stay on this text 310 00:18:21,920 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: for a while because it is her magnum opus. Uh. 311 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:28,640 Speaker 1: There were previous works or Morality for boys and men, 312 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:32,880 Speaker 1: but Lessons for Women was specifically aimed to girls and 313 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 1: women since at the time, men and women's nature were 314 00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: thought to be fundamentally different from one another, and because 315 00:18:41,119 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: of that, so what their ethics be different from one another? 316 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:46,560 Speaker 1: So the exact date is written is unknown, though she's 317 00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 1: believed to have the gun writing it around one or six. 318 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 1: Bunja said in the intro to the text that she 319 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:56,159 Speaker 1: wrote it to prepare her daughters for marriage, but the 320 00:18:56,200 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: fact that it was widely circulated says otherwise. When so 321 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,960 Speaker 1: some context for this, which is always important. When a 322 00:19:10,000 --> 00:19:13,320 Speaker 1: woman got married, she left her family and then went 323 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: to live with her husband and in laws, and Chinese 324 00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: families typically had several wives and concubines and many children, 325 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,840 Speaker 1: and in Bungoo's text, the advice was for women to 326 00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:28,400 Speaker 1: subjugate themselves to the men, so the husband, the brothers, 327 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:31,439 Speaker 1: the brothers in law, and father, father in law, et cetera. 328 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: And Lessons for women codified those rules of behavior. So 329 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: before this point there wasn't a ton of instruction regarding 330 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 1: the duties and the virtues of women, but Bungoo approached 331 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 1: that subject through a lens of Confucianism. It's also important 332 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 1: to remember that it was a time of a lot 333 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:53,639 Speaker 1: of transition and reform in China's history. So there was 334 00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:57,440 Speaker 1: the old feudal system, which sometimes afforded Chinese women the 335 00:19:57,480 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 1: opportunity to move up, sometimes afforded them the opportunity to 336 00:20:01,640 --> 00:20:05,639 Speaker 1: rule in powerful political positions. Um that was replaced with 337 00:20:05,680 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: the imperial system, and Confucianism at this time was central 338 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:12,920 Speaker 1: to the hand court, and because of this, women's role 339 00:20:13,040 --> 00:20:16,800 Speaker 1: was considered inferior to men's. So that said, there was 340 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:20,199 Speaker 1: social mobility in the culture, and there was an emphasis 341 00:20:20,320 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 1: on education and scholarship that did not change. And because 342 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,600 Speaker 1: times were so turbulent, you know, politically, every socially, everything 343 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: that was happening at the time, it was important to 344 00:20:33,480 --> 00:20:36,760 Speaker 1: support this kind of Confucian lifestyle which provided a sort 345 00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:41,040 Speaker 1: of political order and social stability as the government was 346 00:20:41,200 --> 00:20:48,120 Speaker 1: doing declining and everything could be chaotic, and so there 347 00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: were there was a way that gentry families used that 348 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: Confucianism to say, hey, look everything's orderly for me, and 349 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:02,680 Speaker 1: separate themselves from everywhere else by adhering to that those 350 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: straight guidelines of those rituals. So that's a little bit 351 00:21:08,520 --> 00:21:13,640 Speaker 1: of context for lessons for women. We have some more 352 00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:16,520 Speaker 1: with our conversation with Eves, but first we have a 353 00:21:16,600 --> 00:21:32,320 Speaker 1: quick break for word from our sponsor, and we're back, 354 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor. There are seven sections in the text, 355 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,240 Speaker 1: and like we said earlier, it's about like a page 356 00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: per section, like it's very short. They're the first three 357 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:49,160 Speaker 1: are called servile and meek, husband and wife, respectful and cautious, 358 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,840 Speaker 1: giving leeway for translations, and they reinforce the importance of 359 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: women taking a subservient role. And the next two are 360 00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:01,679 Speaker 1: wifely behaviors and wholehearted devotion and there about how lives 361 00:22:01,680 --> 00:22:05,840 Speaker 1: should behave. The last two are absolute obedience specifically as 362 00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 1: a daughter in law and harmony with younger sisters in law. 363 00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: And the gist of those are essays, and he smiling, 364 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:15,159 Speaker 1: She's like, I feel like you've got a lot going 365 00:22:15,200 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 1: on in your hand right now. Oh yeah, yes, So 366 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:29,720 Speaker 1: I'm gonna read an excerpt from these um so we 367 00:22:29,800 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: get a sense of what she was talking about. In these, 368 00:22:34,000 --> 00:22:38,320 Speaker 1: a woman ought to have four qualifications womanly virtue, womanly words, 369 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:41,719 Speaker 1: womanly bearing, and womanly work. Now, what is called womanly 370 00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: virtue need not be brilliant ability exceptionally different from others. 371 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 1: Womanly words need be neither clever in debate nor keen 372 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 1: in conversation. Womanly appearance requires neither a pretty nor a 373 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:56,560 Speaker 1: perfect face in form. Womanly work need not be work 374 00:22:56,760 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: done more skillfully than that of others. Um. Yeah, so 375 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,800 Speaker 1: there's a lot um more that's that's kind of like 376 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:10,040 Speaker 1: a summari a taste of the things that she says, 377 00:23:10,240 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: because she gets into a lot more specificity that The 378 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 1: section that's some momently qualifications goes on to say that 379 00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,600 Speaker 1: a woman has to guard her chastity, she has to 380 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 1: speak at appropriate times, and not to love gossip and 381 00:23:23,240 --> 00:23:27,359 Speaker 1: silly laughter. According to the tests, these qualities are really 382 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:30,560 Speaker 1: easy to have. You just desire them deeply enough. Yeah, 383 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: and even need to leave now you're silly giggles are 384 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:38,160 Speaker 1: too much. Well, we haven't even talked about the vulgarity. 385 00:23:39,200 --> 00:23:46,080 Speaker 1: I'm annoying that part. Yeah, it's really just to have 386 00:23:46,160 --> 00:23:48,439 Speaker 1: it written out like this is how you be a 387 00:23:48,440 --> 00:23:52,840 Speaker 1: good woman. And essentially it is you be quiet and 388 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:57,800 Speaker 1: I love, don't speak too keenly, like, don't be too 389 00:23:57,960 --> 00:24:01,640 Speaker 1: educated just and she was one of the more educated 390 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: women of the time, so that is interesting. Yeah, she said, 391 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,320 Speaker 1: you don't have to be educated, you don't have to 392 00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 1: be intelligent, you don't have to be that type of 393 00:24:12,160 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 1: person to be humble basically, and that's the key. As 394 00:24:14,920 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 1: long as you're humble, yes, that you're good. Yes, humble 395 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,280 Speaker 1: equals I mean, there are a lot of people today 396 00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:26,880 Speaker 1: who could use more humility. And to be fair, even 397 00:24:26,880 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 1: though this was way back when, I've heard this in 398 00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: different formats in the Christian world as I grew up 399 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,000 Speaker 1: in it. Once again, not bashing religion in any way, 400 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:40,439 Speaker 1: but this is actually fairly not so shocking, and it 401 00:24:40,520 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: makes to me this makes more sense because of the 402 00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:45,520 Speaker 1: time frame. Is it great? No? Is it still like? 403 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:48,840 Speaker 1: Oh God, why? For sure? But I've not It wasn't 404 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: more than five years ago that I've seen this in 405 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 1: like Christian texts as this is who you are as 406 00:24:55,400 --> 00:25:00,959 Speaker 1: a woman, yet subservient, kind woman. Yeah, to put it 407 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:05,720 Speaker 1: in terms of morality, like this makes you good to 408 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:10,199 Speaker 1: be good to be a good person, you have to 409 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:16,160 Speaker 1: be less than to be subservient men. It is sort 410 00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,000 Speaker 1: of shocking, and that it isn't that far off from Yeah, 411 00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 1: when I think about some lessons and things I might 412 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: have picked up from my etiquette class or they're teaching, 413 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:33,080 Speaker 1: I think at fourteen, um that to be a good woman, 414 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:37,520 Speaker 1: I have to sit quietly essentially and know how to 415 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,880 Speaker 1: serve people at a table, and that that makes me 416 00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 1: good and to host the party. Yeah. Yeah, And I 417 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:49,360 Speaker 1: can imagine as you say, and during this time there's 418 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: a lot of transition and chaos and having something. This 419 00:25:54,680 --> 00:25:57,679 Speaker 1: reminds me of when the first cookbooks came out and 420 00:25:57,720 --> 00:26:00,159 Speaker 1: women just love them because it was it is a 421 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,920 Speaker 1: resource in a way that they felt they could control 422 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: things in their life. And I can imagine that women 423 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:08,439 Speaker 1: at this time we're like a hare had to be 424 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:11,480 Speaker 1: a good woman and maybe I can like move up 425 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:15,560 Speaker 1: or get a better situation than I have now. And 426 00:26:15,640 --> 00:26:19,600 Speaker 1: like you said earlier, she was a woman of she 427 00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:22,960 Speaker 1: had you know, she had privilege, so her experience is 428 00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,040 Speaker 1: a lot different than people who weren't in her situation. 429 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: When it comes to I need this order in my life. Well, 430 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 1: some people are worried about a little bit more basic 431 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:34,240 Speaker 1: survival needs. So there is that as well to think about. 432 00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 1: So I want to point out some more of the 433 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,760 Speaker 1: things that she said in the text. She said women 434 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 1: must always think of themselves. Last, widows should never remarried, 435 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,680 Speaker 1: as we spoke about earlier. Women must be clean and neat, 436 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:50,400 Speaker 1: and reading and education are as important for women as 437 00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,719 Speaker 1: they are for men. Though later confusion scholars would reject 438 00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: this notion, and women's education went through a lot in 439 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 1: China after after bon Joe died and all that, all 440 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,440 Speaker 1: that said in Lessons for Women, a wife wasn't just 441 00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 1: a husband's servant, like that's not the only thing her 442 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: role was. Spouses shouldn't use harsh language, is one thing 443 00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: she said in the text, And that they shouldn't resort 444 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 1: to domestic violence either, and that women don't have to 445 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,720 Speaker 1: be super talented and like we said, early and intelligent, 446 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: but must be humble, chaste and diligent and obedient. H 447 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: And that's that. I thought that was interesting about the face. 448 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,120 Speaker 1: It could be you didn't have to be beautiful, Yeah, 449 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:40,440 Speaker 1: is that to be you know, pretty much quiet? There's 450 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,000 Speaker 1: a lot of middle lines, and you don't have to 451 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 1: be or and either or, but be does instead. Yeah, yeah, 452 00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: just overall, be cool about it, right, I'm not gonna lie. 453 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 1: When you were talking and we're talking about the qualities 454 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,199 Speaker 1: and such, it kind of pushed me back to the 455 00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: Mulan reference at the beginning of the Disney movie, in 456 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: which that she's reciting to find a husband and you know, like, wait, 457 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:07,920 Speaker 1: that which makes sense because it would have been kind 458 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:10,800 Speaker 1: of in that time frame, kind of um in that 459 00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:13,240 Speaker 1: lesson of trying to come up in society and bringing 460 00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,480 Speaker 1: honor and all of such. Is to marry into which 461 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:20,000 Speaker 1: is actually everywhere, like for the longest time, you as 462 00:28:20,000 --> 00:28:23,920 Speaker 1: a wife, your privileges to bring in the best whatever 463 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: merging of the families, my privilege. Yes, your duties as 464 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:32,640 Speaker 1: the daughter to be a good person. I must do this. 465 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 1: But anyway, that's just a moment. I was like, oh, 466 00:28:36,680 --> 00:28:38,479 Speaker 1: I was like the beginning of the plot of Mulan. 467 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 1: And then she reveiled yes, well good for her, Yeah, 468 00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: I mean all of her cheat notes, right, that's what 469 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:50,040 Speaker 1: do you do this and be that? And I was 470 00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: like I can't remember that saying really well, I don't 471 00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:53,800 Speaker 1: know what exactly she said, but I know it's in 472 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: that reference. Yeah, there's there's also a section in there 473 00:28:57,280 --> 00:29:01,320 Speaker 1: that I liked about um watched and scrubbing filth, right 474 00:29:02,240 --> 00:29:07,080 Speaker 1: and yeah, the the body regularly and keep the person 475 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: free from disgraceful filth. And that's maybe called characteristic characteristics 476 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: of womanly bearing trying. I mean it sounds like good 477 00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: for anybody, right right, it might be just a health Yeah, 478 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: get that lines off of you. He's gonna make life better, 479 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:28,600 Speaker 1: I promise. And I may have missed this at the 480 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,520 Speaker 1: beginning when I was trying to keep up because there 481 00:29:30,560 --> 00:29:32,880 Speaker 1: was a lot of things happening. What was this in 482 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,320 Speaker 1: reference to why was she writing these? So she said 483 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: that she was writing in preparation for her daughters to 484 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 1: be married, right, so that was the only Were they 485 00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:43,560 Speaker 1: having a hard time finding husbands? Or was this such 486 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: a big deal for the women that you must do 487 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 1: this in order to continue the family line? Well, that 488 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: kind of it kind of goes back to the order 489 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,560 Speaker 1: um thing. But we'll talk about another reason that historians 490 00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: think that she wrote this are what she was trying 491 00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: to provide with it in a little bit, but just 492 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:04,400 Speaker 1: in general, like generally, night Confucianism was the way of 493 00:30:04,440 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: the crime. So that was in line with people thinking 494 00:30:07,800 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: this is what men should do and this is what 495 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:12,600 Speaker 1: women should do. But obviously she was the first person 496 00:30:12,640 --> 00:30:14,320 Speaker 1: to lay this out like this, so it's kind of like, oh, 497 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 1: she probably had a reason for it, which we'll get 498 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 1: you in a second. Um, no spoilers. So this is 499 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 1: a work that made her a well known author, but 500 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,920 Speaker 1: it caused a lot of debate, as you could imagine, um, 501 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:33,040 Speaker 1: And that's within the historical record. Like over the years, 502 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: its historians were like, oh, look at this Chinese gender 503 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 1: studies and feminist history. We're feminists now, like you know, 504 00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 1: so they're going back and finding her work and thinking 505 00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 1: about it a lot more. You know, first Westerners didn't 506 00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: get into it until much later. But this is a 507 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,560 Speaker 1: work that kind of blew up her name and cause 508 00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:57,440 Speaker 1: all this talk about it. At the time, it earned 509 00:30:57,440 --> 00:30:59,400 Speaker 1: her a lot of acclaim as a wise and a 510 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:02,680 Speaker 1: moral woman. But later, particularly towards the end of the 511 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,920 Speaker 1: King dynasty, which was the last imperial dynasty in China 512 00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: and that lasted until about nineteen eleven, people began to 513 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 1: question her values about how the book or the text 514 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 1: stripped women of their autonomy. So there were a lot 515 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: of people like that, like later on, this was repressive, 516 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:28,440 Speaker 1: This held women to outdated and regressive standards, all those things. 517 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:31,040 Speaker 1: But then there were also people who thought the text 518 00:31:31,040 --> 00:31:34,160 Speaker 1: should be placed within the context of all norms of 519 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,480 Speaker 1: proper behaviors. So women and girls weren't the only ones 520 00:31:37,520 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: who were held to certain standards of behavior. Boys and 521 00:31:40,960 --> 00:31:44,000 Speaker 1: men also were so to them, bun Jao was just 522 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:48,160 Speaker 1: another person who was perpetuating and recording those norms. And 523 00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: then a lot of way more interpretations you know that 524 00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:59,040 Speaker 1: you can get into of the text, But there was 525 00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: a change to critics thinking and viewing it as a 526 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: more pragmatic strategy to answer your questions, Samantha. That may 527 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: have helped women thrive at the time because it was 528 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:14,000 Speaker 1: such a patriarchal environment and following those strict rules could 529 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: provide women who were getting married and leaving their families 530 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: and going to this environment in this house that they 531 00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: didn't know, like you're having to. That's a big experience 532 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,200 Speaker 1: even for people today, like leaving their homes and going 533 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:27,320 Speaker 1: to a different one. That's a big life experience and 534 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:29,800 Speaker 1: a life change. And you never know how these people 535 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,440 Speaker 1: might be. They may be envious people. They may be 536 00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:36,360 Speaker 1: vengeful they maybe you never know, um, a lot of 537 00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: dynamics going on back at this time, you know, um, 538 00:32:41,000 --> 00:32:44,240 Speaker 1: so leaving that environment and stepping into it. So this 539 00:32:44,560 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: text could be a strategy for survival. Like, once a 540 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,959 Speaker 1: woman won everyone's approval through following these guidelines and all 541 00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,680 Speaker 1: these ingratiating rules, she could then gay and prestige and power, 542 00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 1: And as a means of avoiding conflict and surviving that 543 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:00,800 Speaker 1: new life of hers would who knows how it's going 544 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 1: to be, this text could be a practical manual for that. So, 545 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: regardless of all of those different thoughts that critics had 546 00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: on the text over the years, it did have an 547 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: impact on traditional views of how women should behave. Um, 548 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,880 Speaker 1: there were elite men who praised her for what she 549 00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,400 Speaker 1: was saying in the work. And also there is a 550 00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: it's clear that later works that came on female ethics 551 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:32,800 Speaker 1: can be traced back to lessons for women, so it 552 00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:37,920 Speaker 1: inspired later works. That said, some scholars do suggest that 553 00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:42,720 Speaker 1: her work didn't have a ton ton of influence on 554 00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: women's education and family relations in her dynasty and in 555 00:33:46,840 --> 00:33:51,000 Speaker 1: later ones. And so there can be an I like 556 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: the idea that her influence has been overrated. It's honestly 557 00:33:54,760 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: very like the interpretations of her work go very deep. Um, 558 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,400 Speaker 1: what did you think about digit? Do you have any 559 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 1: feelings on the various interpretations over the years. I it 560 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:16,080 Speaker 1: is hard to when things are that far removed. Sometimes 561 00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: I find myself feeling like, it's just hard to imagine 562 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:25,120 Speaker 1: it really happened, you know what I mean. And I 563 00:34:25,160 --> 00:34:30,719 Speaker 1: was reading some criticism, especially when the Western world kind 564 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 1: of learned about this, and people were writing like, look 565 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: at how she helped maintain the oppression of women, and 566 00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 1: people called her like Trader Bond or Trader gil Um, 567 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:49,239 Speaker 1: and I guess I get sort of torn. And we 568 00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:56,279 Speaker 1: have come so far, and it's hard with history and 569 00:34:56,560 --> 00:35:01,239 Speaker 1: historical the way we interpret things, especially written kords. Some 570 00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 1: things don't mean the same thing that they did then, 571 00:35:04,000 --> 00:35:07,799 Speaker 1: and I'm always like, well, what is their missing meaning here? 572 00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,840 Speaker 1: What else was going on? There's so much of the 573 00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:16,440 Speaker 1: picture we don't have, So it's almost kind of funny 574 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,040 Speaker 1: to me to see all of this really in depth 575 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 1: criticism of her work, which there should be, But at 576 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,439 Speaker 1: the same time, there's just so much we don't know 577 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,919 Speaker 1: about it, and that doesn't mean it's not worth having 578 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:34,399 Speaker 1: the conversation, but it is funny to some people get 579 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: really angry about it. Yeah, in fighting, yes there is. 580 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,800 Speaker 1: I didn't know the historian world was so no, actually 581 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 1: I did. I'm not going to act like on that night. 582 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:50,239 Speaker 1: History and context is very important as to what is 583 00:35:50,280 --> 00:35:53,319 Speaker 1: relevant what isn't relevant, And again, what was occurring at 584 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:54,880 Speaker 1: that time kind of like the same idea with the 585 00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 1: Old Testament ideas that is still being used as fore 586 00:35:58,880 --> 00:36:00,360 Speaker 1: front of this is what should be have? And you're like, 587 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:02,520 Speaker 1: you're taking this a lot of context. You've got to 588 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: remember where this is coming from. And again, like we 589 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,040 Speaker 1: were saying, you were saying, what if this is a 590 00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:09,520 Speaker 1: health benefit? What this what if this was a survival 591 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:12,440 Speaker 1: guide more so than this is how it should be 592 00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:16,600 Speaker 1: because we've got to honor these men or honor whatever. 593 00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:19,160 Speaker 1: On a religion, and Confucianism was very much about what 594 00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:21,719 Speaker 1: you were talking about, just kind of finding peace and 595 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: a balance in things. And at this point in time, 596 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:27,440 Speaker 1: at this time, in this context where she got brought 597 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: up because of her family and because of the male 598 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 1: members of her family, what did that look like? She 599 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: got made really young? Correct? And then he died off, 600 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: and no one really knew what was going on, and 601 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 1: then the debate of okay, does she disrespect how does 602 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 1: the marriage come about for her? Or remarriage? And she 603 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:47,080 Speaker 1: had children at that of an age too, so that's 604 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,279 Speaker 1: a lot of yeah. And now that you mention it, 605 00:36:50,280 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 1: it's like that wasn't It was typical for girls to 606 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:58,000 Speaker 1: be married like she was a girl when she was married. 607 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: So imagine being at that stage just as a human 608 00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:03,759 Speaker 1: being in your life and all these different things and 609 00:37:03,840 --> 00:37:06,759 Speaker 1: changes happening to you, and on top of that, going 610 00:37:06,800 --> 00:37:11,359 Speaker 1: through the whole really rigid marriage process that required so 611 00:37:11,440 --> 00:37:13,720 Speaker 1: much of you. And then you're having all these people 612 00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:16,560 Speaker 1: asked more of you and have all these expectations placed 613 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: on you. And I'm still fourteen, and I'm still sixteen, 614 00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:22,800 Speaker 1: and I'm still seventeen. You know, Um, then you're taught. 615 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:25,120 Speaker 1: Because the thing about for me, we're not looking at 616 00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:29,240 Speaker 1: myself at sixteen. I'm embarrassed about some of my values 617 00:37:29,239 --> 00:37:31,239 Speaker 1: that put that point in time, if that makes sense, 618 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: And I'm like, oh my gosh, I was reiterating the 619 00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:37,480 Speaker 1: ignorance that I had thought were true at one point 620 00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,080 Speaker 1: in time. And therefore, because I if you look back 621 00:37:40,120 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 1: on some of my journals. That's super embarrassing about what 622 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:47,799 Speaker 1: I thought was perfection and the goal of life and 623 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,680 Speaker 1: all of that, and I couldn't imagine that being taken 624 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:54,080 Speaker 1: as this is the holy context of what you should be. 625 00:37:55,080 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 1: It's so helpful when you're young to have somebody telling 626 00:37:58,680 --> 00:38:01,040 Speaker 1: you what you should do, and then later on you 627 00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:03,680 Speaker 1: take that and say, oh, they gave me this, and 628 00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: now I can continue to delve into these ideas and 629 00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:08,080 Speaker 1: see what works for me. It's kind of like the 630 00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:11,319 Speaker 1: typical five sentence paragraph that they used to give you, 631 00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:13,840 Speaker 1: or the five paragraph I say that they used to 632 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:16,520 Speaker 1: give me. They say, this is your your topic sentence, 633 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:20,080 Speaker 1: and then this is your right and then these ones 634 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,040 Speaker 1: you explain the three points you're gonna say the next 635 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,040 Speaker 1: three paragraphs, and then you have a conclusion sentence. And 636 00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 1: like when you're young, like, oh, look at my look 637 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:32,160 Speaker 1: at my essay. I just did that, did five paragraphs 638 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:34,840 Speaker 1: and did everything the teacher said, and I get these checks. 639 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:37,319 Speaker 1: I did this right, I did this right, did this right, 640 00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 1: got a hundred on the paper. And then you take 641 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 1: that paper to your college later and they're like, m, 642 00:38:42,960 --> 00:38:47,920 Speaker 1: this is so stilted. This is so this formulaic what 643 00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 1: is this? Like everybody told me this was right like 644 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,959 Speaker 1: years ago, and like that's what it's like to have 645 00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:57,440 Speaker 1: guidelines like that. Like if you think about it in 646 00:38:57,520 --> 00:39:00,000 Speaker 1: that way, where these girls were girls when they were 647 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:02,919 Speaker 1: get go, getting married and having to deal with all 648 00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:08,640 Speaker 1: the things that have to do with maturity and uh, 649 00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 1: maturity and sex and relationships and like all the rules 650 00:39:14,680 --> 00:39:18,640 Speaker 1: and all the like social practices that were very ingrained 651 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 1: in the culture. And I just think about also, especially 652 00:39:22,920 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 1: and even today, the idea of maintaining a reputation for 653 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: her to go and be placed that Okay, you're this 654 00:39:29,080 --> 00:39:33,360 Speaker 1: person's family member. We're gonna make you finished this because 655 00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:35,160 Speaker 1: you know you have some education. I'm gonna give you this. 656 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:37,600 Speaker 1: And I like what you're saying, So finish my historical 657 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 1: reference here that's been started by your father, your brother, 658 00:39:40,400 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 1: now you and so I have maintained that level of respect. 659 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:47,760 Speaker 1: What does that look like in the eyes of whomever. 660 00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 1: So it's kind of like when you hear and this 661 00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,799 Speaker 1: is very very obviously a broad generalization and broad comparison, 662 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,560 Speaker 1: when women are like or girls. I'm a girl, I'm 663 00:39:57,560 --> 00:40:00,480 Speaker 1: a guy's girl. I don't really like girls, because and 664 00:40:00,480 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 1: in a lot of majority of these girls think that's 665 00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:06,400 Speaker 1: how you get in with guys that are being liked by, 666 00:40:06,520 --> 00:40:11,840 Speaker 1: you know, dismissing or being um negative about others, putting 667 00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,319 Speaker 1: them down, so you don't look like that whatever you're 668 00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:17,360 Speaker 1: afraid of becoming. You know, could you I couldn't imagine 669 00:40:17,360 --> 00:40:20,160 Speaker 1: in that historical context of you have this reputation already 670 00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:22,920 Speaker 1: because of your family, you're supposed to maintain this and 671 00:40:22,960 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 1: how do you keep going with that? It's a lot 672 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,480 Speaker 1: of it's a burden, it's a lot of responsibility. Does 673 00:40:28,520 --> 00:40:31,399 Speaker 1: it excuse those things? Now? What? I think these things 674 00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:32,879 Speaker 1: are great now? But I've been burned at the stake 675 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:36,480 Speaker 1: by her standards. Yes, yes I would, but yeah, you 676 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:38,680 Speaker 1: got you have to come back. And this was over 677 00:40:38,760 --> 00:40:43,239 Speaker 1: nine years ago this and isn't very weird time frame 678 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:45,840 Speaker 1: because you had those dynasties and that doesn't exist anymore. 679 00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:49,400 Speaker 1: And you kind of just know the historical romancing context 680 00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:51,440 Speaker 1: of what it was back then, what you imagine had 681 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,239 Speaker 1: happened then two now it's kind of like, huh, I 682 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,600 Speaker 1: wonder you take those words, what does that look like 683 00:40:56,680 --> 00:40:59,439 Speaker 1: then today? What was that comparison? What was her life 684 00:40:59,520 --> 00:41:02,680 Speaker 1: really a lot. Yeah, and I also think that for me, 685 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:04,960 Speaker 1: I can read all I want to about these times. 686 00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,000 Speaker 1: I can't embody it, like I have no idea what 687 00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:10,040 Speaker 1: it's like to live in that time. I can't fathom it. 688 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,120 Speaker 1: It's like trying to figure out what a billion light 689 00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 1: years is, Like I can't fathom it. So, yeah, we 690 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 1: do have a little bit more for you, but first 691 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,080 Speaker 1: we have one more quick break for word from our sponsor, 692 00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:39,279 Speaker 1: and we're back. Thank you. Fun. She lived to her seventies, 693 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 1: so she was really all. It was around one sixteen 694 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:47,439 Speaker 1: around that time, and Empress Dowager Dune reportedly mourned her death. 695 00:41:47,880 --> 00:41:49,840 Speaker 1: They said they she did that for her, So that 696 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:53,200 Speaker 1: would ad meant that Button Jail was an important person 697 00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,479 Speaker 1: in the Empress Dowager's life. And like I said about 698 00:41:57,480 --> 00:41:59,960 Speaker 1: her poetry, you can read a lot of her literary works, 699 00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:03,880 Speaker 1: and you can read Lessons for Women and all of 700 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:06,600 Speaker 1: the scholarly debate that's happened over the issues of gender 701 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,400 Speaker 1: and her work, and just delve into that beyond this description, 702 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:12,799 Speaker 1: because there's only so much we can get into. But 703 00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:16,399 Speaker 1: the point is, like historians returned to her work over 704 00:42:16,480 --> 00:42:19,359 Speaker 1: time to view it through a lens of gender as 705 00:42:19,440 --> 00:42:22,880 Speaker 1: society was transforming a lot, and as people were developing 706 00:42:22,920 --> 00:42:28,719 Speaker 1: different views on women's roles. Yeah, it is fascinating to 707 00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:35,000 Speaker 1: see something like being a woman quantified almost like and 708 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,320 Speaker 1: it's it's such a good snapshot. It makes me wonder 709 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:42,440 Speaker 1: if we wrote now, like if if we almost kind 710 00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:46,600 Speaker 1: of satirically wrote, these are the things society expects you 711 00:42:47,320 --> 00:42:50,120 Speaker 1: to be a good woman. You are these things, and 712 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:54,200 Speaker 1: then two thousand years from now, if somebody read it 713 00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,319 Speaker 1: and it just doesn't make any sense. I actually love 714 00:42:57,400 --> 00:43:00,759 Speaker 1: that idea, just like a I can't think of the 715 00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,160 Speaker 1: word just some kin of some sort. It's kind of 716 00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:08,280 Speaker 1: like historical fiction, like historical realmaging, but with current commentary 717 00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,400 Speaker 1: on it, I'm gonna have to do that. Yeah, we 718 00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:15,440 Speaker 1: should be cool. Yeah, it's a new decade doing things. 719 00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:22,000 Speaker 1: It's time. What could have this been We'll never know, 720 00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:26,680 Speaker 1: speculation perhaps, but yeah, but yeah, but that's she's that 721 00:43:27,200 --> 00:43:31,120 Speaker 1: deep history and being that important in in that culture 722 00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:35,400 Speaker 1: and being a historian and someone who was brought on 723 00:43:35,640 --> 00:43:40,520 Speaker 1: even that's m h intimidating. Yeah, as are most of 724 00:43:40,560 --> 00:43:45,440 Speaker 1: the women we talked about. Doesn't she have a crater? 725 00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:47,279 Speaker 1: That's right? I knew it. She does have a crater 726 00:43:47,400 --> 00:43:50,040 Speaker 1: as a crater on Venus named after her, And that's 727 00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,239 Speaker 1: how you know you've made it. Don't you want to 728 00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:57,720 Speaker 1: have a name to that even happen People who discover 729 00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,960 Speaker 1: it are like, let's name it after nobody knows unless 730 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:03,120 Speaker 1: you look up that person, and like the crater was 731 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:08,480 Speaker 1: named after that. I mean, I get I wanted though, Okay, 732 00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:12,320 Speaker 1: you want to what you're saying, Yes, if anyone listening 733 00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:15,560 Speaker 1: has that power. If I ready created one on the 734 00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,279 Speaker 1: earth and said this as far, oh my gosh, we 735 00:44:18,320 --> 00:44:20,160 Speaker 1: could probably if we raised enough money, we could probably 736 00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,680 Speaker 1: get it done, honestly, and thank you. You know what 737 00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:26,040 Speaker 1: I learned last night? How to name it crater? No, 738 00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:31,160 Speaker 1: so my dad named me after um, his mom, but 739 00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:32,920 Speaker 1: also Mickey Rooney. That's why I spent my name with 740 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,920 Speaker 1: an E. Y. I thought Mickey Rooney was a baseball player, 741 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,840 Speaker 1: and I learned last night he's an actor. My whole life, 742 00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:42,080 Speaker 1: I thought I was named. It took you to the last. 743 00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:47,440 Speaker 1: Have you never heard the stories of Judy Garland and 744 00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:51,560 Speaker 1: Vickey Rooney, Like we all have stories like that. Though 745 00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:57,520 Speaker 1: we just realized something after however many years we've living historian. Yeah, 746 00:44:57,640 --> 00:44:59,960 Speaker 1: I think I said something recently, like yesterday we were 747 00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,279 Speaker 1: port in something else. I never knew that. But this 748 00:45:04,320 --> 00:45:07,160 Speaker 1: is my namesake. I've been telling people my entire life. 749 00:45:07,200 --> 00:45:10,240 Speaker 1: I was named after a baseball player and he didn't 750 00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 1: die until recently, like it was. I don't know. My 751 00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:18,080 Speaker 1: point being if if you name a crater after me, 752 00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,600 Speaker 1: at least I'll know where the name comes from now. 753 00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:27,400 Speaker 1: But he was, Yeah, he died in fourteen. Like I 754 00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,799 Speaker 1: don't need the judgment. I don't need the judgment. I 755 00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:32,880 Speaker 1: got it last night because I found this out at 756 00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,640 Speaker 1: a party and everybody had like you didn't know that. 757 00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,000 Speaker 1: They just kept going and going and going. And I 758 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:40,759 Speaker 1: got all the texts this morning. I remember when you 759 00:45:40,800 --> 00:45:43,200 Speaker 1: didn't know Mickey or any one, like, oh my god, Okay, 760 00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:45,560 Speaker 1: do you think of anything like that ever happened to me? 761 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,440 Speaker 1: So we can commits right an arm. I'm trying to 762 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:52,480 Speaker 1: think of it too, because you know I told you 763 00:45:52,520 --> 00:45:55,840 Speaker 1: I love old movies and I loved Mickey Mooney and 764 00:45:55,920 --> 00:45:58,600 Speaker 1: Judy Garland films because that was before Judy Garland. Well, 765 00:45:58,600 --> 00:46:01,200 Speaker 1: that was during the midst of them abusing Judy Garland 766 00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:03,960 Speaker 1: and started her drug addiction, and he was a part 767 00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:06,359 Speaker 1: of that too, because they would feed both of them, 768 00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,200 Speaker 1: uh different drugs to keep them awake, to put them 769 00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:11,279 Speaker 1: to sleep, and then that kind of just because they 770 00:46:11,320 --> 00:46:14,200 Speaker 1: were making a lot of money for the studio, so 771 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:17,600 Speaker 1: they were Yeah, and Judy Garland's whole story story is 772 00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:20,279 Speaker 1: so dramatic. He was a part of that, not as 773 00:46:20,320 --> 00:46:23,200 Speaker 1: in like he was main or anything, but he was 774 00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:25,440 Speaker 1: a part of that trope of Okay, one of our 775 00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,399 Speaker 1: mini stars, this is what we're gonna do. We've gone 776 00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:31,520 Speaker 1: really really often. Yeah, we have. Now I've got to 777 00:46:31,520 --> 00:46:33,360 Speaker 1: look him up and see if there's anyway I'll do 778 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:39,439 Speaker 1: it that later any other final But no, I think 779 00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:45,680 Speaker 1: that works for me. I love that history. I also 780 00:46:45,760 --> 00:46:49,320 Speaker 1: love that it's not it's not just setting easy tones 781 00:46:49,400 --> 00:46:51,760 Speaker 1: like there are so many complications and so many debates, 782 00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:55,160 Speaker 1: and because that's absolutely reflective of that time and generation 783 00:46:55,160 --> 00:46:57,600 Speaker 1: and we've got to acknowledge for what it is and 784 00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 1: also acknowledge the historical context. And I think it's very 785 00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:03,279 Speaker 1: portant because again, one of the things we talked about 786 00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:05,640 Speaker 1: and we're going to talk about forever obviously, but even 787 00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:07,799 Speaker 1: when politics and such, when there's like that back and forth, 788 00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:09,840 Speaker 1: like yeah, he did this, but they did this as well. 789 00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:12,319 Speaker 1: It's kind of that same level of she did some 790 00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:14,680 Speaker 1: amazing things, she was recognized for these amazing things, but 791 00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:18,120 Speaker 1: then she did this, which became problematic. So how do you, 792 00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:21,000 Speaker 1: especially in this culture of when when it's one sided, 793 00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:23,480 Speaker 1: it seems like you're you're either this or that and 794 00:47:23,520 --> 00:47:26,400 Speaker 1: you can't be both. I think it's very good to 795 00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:29,120 Speaker 1: keep looking at that as relevant in what we're talking 796 00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,840 Speaker 1: about today and how things are changing today. When I 797 00:47:31,880 --> 00:47:34,960 Speaker 1: also think two things that One often when we look 798 00:47:34,960 --> 00:47:37,160 Speaker 1: back at stuff like this and say, oh, it's so horrible, 799 00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:39,439 Speaker 1: but like that's not always the case, like too easy 800 00:47:39,480 --> 00:47:43,120 Speaker 1: to judge. It's they were living fine lives within these 801 00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:48,120 Speaker 1: kind find still and just because it isn't the type 802 00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:51,879 Speaker 1: of freedom and movement that we're able to have today 803 00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:56,000 Speaker 1: doesn't mean that it was horrible, And to that it 804 00:47:56,160 --> 00:48:01,480 Speaker 1: is encouraging to see how long things can take. We 805 00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,000 Speaker 1: often think, oh, this is never going to change, and 806 00:48:04,040 --> 00:48:07,080 Speaker 1: we had to do and thinking bureaucratically, like specifically staying 807 00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:09,440 Speaker 1: in the US, it's gonna take forever for this legislation 808 00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:11,440 Speaker 1: to happen, and this is never gonna happen because there 809 00:48:11,600 --> 00:48:14,040 Speaker 1: there's this is two partisans, and like we think all 810 00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:16,520 Speaker 1: that all those things which are important parts of the 811 00:48:16,560 --> 00:48:20,120 Speaker 1: conversation obviously matter in terms of things actually happening. But 812 00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:24,759 Speaker 1: if we can be so humble to think beyond our 813 00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:29,680 Speaker 1: own lifetimes that we can imagine change and continue to 814 00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:35,520 Speaker 1: have hope excellently, put Eaves excellently, Happy freaking New Year, 815 00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:40,000 Speaker 1: that's right, Happy New Year, everyone, Happy Year. Where can 816 00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:43,320 Speaker 1: the listeners find you? Eaves? So you can find me 817 00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:48,760 Speaker 1: on Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram at this same in history class. 818 00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:50,880 Speaker 1: Just look up that podcast, which is another one that 819 00:48:50,920 --> 00:48:53,319 Speaker 1: I'm on, is a daily history podcast, and you can 820 00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,960 Speaker 1: find me on all those things. Look up I'm Popular. 821 00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:59,239 Speaker 1: It's a podcast about people in history who challenge the 822 00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:02,719 Speaker 1: status quo and we're persecuted for it in some way, 823 00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:04,960 Speaker 1: and what lessons we can learn to be able to 824 00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:09,799 Speaker 1: link those to today's world and from elsewhere. My name 825 00:49:09,920 --> 00:49:14,320 Speaker 1: Eves Jeff co y v e S. Jeff cot not 826 00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,719 Speaker 1: named after Mickey Rooney, not named after Mickey Rooney, named 827 00:49:17,760 --> 00:49:20,000 Speaker 1: after Eve St. Lauri. And I was thinking about when 828 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,080 Speaker 1: you said that, maybe I'll find out that I wasn't. 829 00:49:22,200 --> 00:49:24,320 Speaker 1: One day. I'm gonna I'm gonna check in on the 830 00:49:24,400 --> 00:49:28,399 Speaker 1: history again. You should do a devil check, really really through. 831 00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:31,120 Speaker 1: I think that was partly hers, wasn't it also adjusted 832 00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:33,440 Speaker 1: today this day in history class. It was, but I've 833 00:49:33,440 --> 00:49:42,000 Speaker 1: already offered her the Pinot beter um. Anyway, well, it 834 00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:45,279 Speaker 1: was a pleasure, as always, Eaves, thank you so much. 835 00:49:46,000 --> 00:49:49,320 Speaker 1: If you would like to contact us, you can our emails, 836 00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:51,680 Speaker 1: Stuff Media, mom Stuff at iHeart media dot com. You 837 00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:53,800 Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter at momsf podcast, or on 838 00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:56,320 Speaker 1: Instagram and Stuff I've Never Told You. Thanks as always 839 00:49:56,520 --> 00:50:00,480 Speaker 1: to to our super producer Andrew Howard. Thanks to you 840 00:50:00,680 --> 00:50:02,719 Speaker 1: for listening Stuff I've Never Told You. He was a 841 00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:04,640 Speaker 1: production of iHeart Radio. As how Steff works for more 842 00:50:04,680 --> 00:50:06,360 Speaker 1: podcast from my Heart Radio. You can listen to the 843 00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,279 Speaker 1: iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to 844 00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:10,120 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.