WEBVTT - Surviving bad bosses, with Mita Mallick 0:00:02.960 --> 0:00:06.600 Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:08.760 --> 0:00:14.000 Good Morning. This is Laura, Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:17.439 Today's episode is going to be a longer one part 0:00:17.440 --> 0:00:20.840 of the series where I interview fascinating people about how 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:23.439 they take their days from great to awesome and any 0:00:23.480 --> 0:00:26.439 advice they have for the rest of us. So today, 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:30.000 I'm delighted to welcome Meta Malik to Before Breakfast. Meta 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:33.080 has worked extensively in marketing and human resources and is 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:36.280 the author of the brand new book, The Devil Emails 0:00:36.320 --> 0:00:39.640 at Midnight, What Good Leaders Can Learn From Bad Bosses. 0:00:39.680 --> 0:00:41.000 So Vida, welcome to the show. 0:00:41.320 --> 0:00:43.320 Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited 0:00:43.360 --> 0:00:44.520 for our conversation today. 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:47.279 Yeah, I'm excited as well. So why don't you tell 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:48.800 our listeners a little bit about yourself? 0:00:49.680 --> 0:00:52.800 So I Meeta Malik. I've been both a marketing and 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:56.200 human resources executive. I'm a passionate storyteller, and I'm on 0:00:56.240 --> 0:00:58.920 a mission to fix what's broken in our workplaces. 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:00.080 And as you mentioned, I have a new. 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:02.640 Book coming out called The Devil Emails at Midnight, What 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:05.440 Good Leaders can learn from Good boss from Bad Bosses? 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:09.199 And what is top of mind for me right now 0:01:09.280 --> 0:01:11.440 is I'm on a journey to raise kind and inclusive 0:01:11.520 --> 0:01:12.120 human beings. 0:01:12.160 --> 0:01:12.800 And it's tough. 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:15.440 And I'm sure every generation of parents said the same thing, 0:01:15.520 --> 0:01:16.200 But it is. 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:17.640 It is rough, It. 0:01:17.600 --> 0:01:20.200 Is rough, exactly exactly what we all do the best 0:01:20.240 --> 0:01:22.560 we can. Well, I want to start with the title 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:27.320 of your book. Is there anything inherently wrong about emailing 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:27.880 at midnight? 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:29.600 M I love that question. 0:01:30.000 --> 0:01:35.800 Not inherently, it is the persistent hum of it, the constant, 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:40.560 continuous rhythm of always emailing off hours and in the 0:01:40.600 --> 0:01:44.160 double emails at midnight. The opening chapter is the scene 0:01:44.319 --> 0:01:46.759 of the boss who never had time for me. So 0:01:46.920 --> 0:01:49.760 I would chase her around the office like a golden retriever. 0:01:49.880 --> 0:01:51.600 I just wanted to be seen. I wanted hello, I 0:01:51.640 --> 0:01:53.520 wanted to thank you. I chased her into the parking 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:55.680 lot once Laura, I was trying like she would never 0:01:55.760 --> 0:01:58.040 have time for me, except between the hours of ten 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:01.600 pm and two am, where she would dump out or inbox. 0:02:02.040 --> 0:02:04.360 Can you pay this invoice, can you work on the stack? 0:02:04.880 --> 0:02:06.880 Can you send this note? And and I was there willing 0:02:07.240 --> 0:02:09.880 to respond because I wanted to be seen. And so 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:13.760 that's the question is, isn't the biggest complaint in our 0:02:13.800 --> 0:02:16.240 relationships that we don't have time for each other. And 0:02:16.280 --> 0:02:18.119 so it's true in the workplace too, And so that's 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:21.320 what that's what it really means about, if you're only 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:22.680 available at midnight. 0:02:23.240 --> 0:02:25.120 Yeah, because when I heard that, I mean one of 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:28.600 the things you know, we've talked about on this podcast. 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:30.320 And some of the research I've done, and I know 0:02:30.400 --> 0:02:33.760 you're a working mom, right that one of the things 0:02:33.760 --> 0:02:36.280 that happens is a lot of parents who are also 0:02:36.360 --> 0:02:40.600 professionals try to in their work day a hard stop. 0:02:41.200 --> 0:02:43.120 Yes, five thirty for day care pickup. 0:02:43.200 --> 0:02:46.840 Yes, absolutely, Ye, you're in it. 0:02:46.880 --> 0:02:48.200 I know you're in it right now. 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:51.040 And so then you know, you play with your kid, 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:53.800 put your kid to bed, yes, And now it's email time. 0:02:54.480 --> 0:02:58.320 And so you know, the many people who probably. 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:01.360 Are emailing in that you know, nine pm, two whatever 0:03:02.360 --> 0:03:05.680 window of the day may not always be doing it 0:03:05.720 --> 0:03:07.480 to be terrible. So I think, you know, we're trying 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:09.600 to figure out, like, what what is the way we. 0:03:09.560 --> 0:03:12.639 Can you know, indicate to people that were not trying 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:13.280 to be terrible. 0:03:14.200 --> 0:03:15.840 Yeah, And I love that you said that some people 0:03:15.880 --> 0:03:18.080 have an out of office or something in their signature 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:20.480 that says, these are the hours that work for me. 0:03:20.560 --> 0:03:22.600 Don't feel the need to respond. I do think when 0:03:22.600 --> 0:03:25.120 you're the boss, you hold power in your organization. So 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:28.400 if I'm repeatedly emailing and doing the second shift, and 0:03:28.440 --> 0:03:31.560 then what happens is really interesting, Right, I will you 0:03:31.600 --> 0:03:33.160 work for me, and I will say to you not 0:03:33.240 --> 0:03:35.840 to email me back, but you will, and then this 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:36.720 back and forth. 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:37.000 Right. 0:03:37.240 --> 0:03:41.520 So some approaches could be delay the sending of it, right, 0:03:41.640 --> 0:03:43.000 but then I don't want to wake up in the 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:46.960 morning and have thirty emails at nine am that'll arrive. 0:03:47.040 --> 0:03:49.640 That's not helpful either. But anythink Laura, what it forces 0:03:49.640 --> 0:03:51.680 people to do to say, why does this have to 0:03:51.720 --> 0:03:54.480 be an email? Because here's what I have been guilty of. 0:03:54.560 --> 0:03:56.400 I want to get it off my plate and onto yours, 0:03:56.560 --> 0:03:57.920 so I just want to send it. So if I 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:00.880 actually paused and said, is this an email? Or is 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:03.120 this when I know I'm meeting with Laura on Wednesday, 0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:04.640 I'm putting this on my list for the one on 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:07.760 one I'm saving that email, or it's going to be 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:10.240 in our team meeting that we do every month, you know. 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.040 So it forces people to really think about you're just 0:04:13.280 --> 0:04:15.680 using email to dump your inbox out, which sometimes you've 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:17.320 been guilty of, or you're going to be more strategic 0:04:17.400 --> 0:04:19.000 of how are you going to communicate with your team? 0:04:19.640 --> 0:04:23.920 Yeah, well, making good communication is probably you know, thoughtful 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:26.040 communication is definitely a good boss move. 0:04:27.000 --> 0:04:30.240 So what are some other sort of more toxic forms 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:33.040 of communication or bad forms of communication that the bad 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:35.320 bosses are are own for doing? Well? 0:04:35.360 --> 0:04:37.240 It kind of started during the pandemic, didn't it. We 0:04:37.279 --> 0:04:40.000 have so many ways to interact with each other from 0:04:40.040 --> 0:04:43.120 a technology perspective. So I had a boss who would 0:04:43.560 --> 0:04:46.920 you know, send the email? But then it's the slack, 0:04:47.600 --> 0:04:51.680 the text, the phone call, the missed FaceTime audio. You're like, 0:04:51.720 --> 0:04:53.800 wait a minute, I'm in a meeting, Like why do 0:04:54.000 --> 0:04:57.120 like I got the email wait for me to respond, right, 0:04:57.360 --> 0:04:59.200 And so it's your point of like what are good 0:04:59.200 --> 0:05:03.440 communication styles and vehicles? And you have to think about 0:05:03.440 --> 0:05:06.040 like for me, if I go to like tier one, 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:09.240 if something is urgent, my team is going to get 0:05:09.279 --> 0:05:13.960 a phone call from me, and that means budget cuts, restructuring, 0:05:14.600 --> 0:05:17.159 someone leaving the team. Like it's if you get the 0:05:17.160 --> 0:05:19.120 phone call, you know I need you right away, and 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:22.240 then you don't abuse that often, right, because if everything's urgent, 0:05:22.320 --> 0:05:25.680 nothing's urgent. And then when you're emailing something and you 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:28.000 don't need a response for two days or whatever, the 0:05:28.040 --> 0:05:30.880 deadline is, let the person respond because likely they're not 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:33.760 responding because they're in the bathroom, which they're allowed to do. 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:36.839 They're they're taking a snack break or getting some water, 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:38.800 or they're in a meeting doing work. 0:05:39.240 --> 0:05:43.640 Yeah, so thinking about what is the urgency level of 0:05:43.880 --> 0:05:48.360 the communication and matching the appropriate communication to that. So, 0:05:48.520 --> 0:05:50.680 I mean, let's talk about the idea of bad bosses 0:05:50.720 --> 0:05:52.640 in general, though, I mean our bad boss is born 0:05:52.800 --> 0:05:53.200 or made? 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:56.000 I mean, do people do good bosses become bad bosses? 0:05:56.040 --> 0:05:57.000 Is that something they do? 0:05:57.400 --> 0:06:00.240 Yeah, that's what I believe, and that's what I've been studying. 0:06:00.279 --> 0:06:04.200 Bad bosses are not born, they're made. I've gone from 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:06.159 being a good leader to a bad boss. In the 0:06:06.200 --> 0:06:09.479 Devil Emails at Midnight, I chronicle thirteen leaders, including myself. 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:12.279 And what's interesting, Laura, someone who's a bad boss for 0:06:12.400 --> 0:06:14.440 me could be a good boss for you. And so 0:06:14.480 --> 0:06:18.040 it's about context and situation. This boss could be a 0:06:18.200 --> 0:06:21.680 terrible micromanager for me, like oh my god, Mike Maridgian. 0:06:21.440 --> 0:06:23.120 And then you might be newer to the team, and 0:06:23.120 --> 0:06:23.640 so they actually know. 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:27.680 I need this level of support and hold handholding for 0:06:27.720 --> 0:06:30.000 the moment, and so I think that's really important. But 0:06:30.080 --> 0:06:33.440 we can swing from being good to bad and bad 0:06:33.480 --> 0:06:33.840 to good. 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:37.520 Okay, Well, let's hope that we're all going in the 0:06:37.600 --> 0:06:40.400 right direction. Then I'm going to take a quick ad 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:49.960 break and then I'll be back with more from Meta Malik. Well, 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:52.479 I am back talking with Meta Malik, who is the 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:56.160 author of the brand new book The Devil Emails at Midnight. 0:06:57.240 --> 0:07:02.000 So let's talk a little bit more about if somebody 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:05.880 is listening to this and wondering, Hm, am I a 0:07:05.920 --> 0:07:06.600 bad boss? 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:07.880 Yeah? 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:10.040 I mean it doesn't always get you know, written on 0:07:10.080 --> 0:07:13.360 the board like she's a bad boss, she's terrible. How 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:16.680 can we suss that out if our team members are 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:17.800 unhappy with our leadership? 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:19.960 I love that you used daughter language from my daughter, 0:07:20.040 --> 0:07:24.200 sus it out right. Here's what I would say is 0:07:24.200 --> 0:07:26.960 that there are three moments when bad boss behavior is 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:30.160 going to show up. Typically, one is something's happening in 0:07:30.200 --> 0:07:34.240 the external market. They're tariffs, your competition has beat you 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:37.680 to the market with innovation, something has an m and 0:07:37.760 --> 0:07:41.480 a acquisition has failed. Right, something's happening, it's causing havoc, 0:07:41.920 --> 0:07:45.920 it's causing stress. Second, your boss is behaving badly, and 0:07:45.960 --> 0:07:48.160 in my house we say pooh pooh, trickles down. So 0:07:48.240 --> 0:07:51.640 now you're taking on this person's energy. And then the 0:07:51.680 --> 0:07:54.960 third is something's happened in your personal life. You've lost 0:07:54.960 --> 0:07:59.360 a loved one, you've suffered a miscarriage, you break up, divorce, move, 0:07:59.560 --> 0:08:03.119 all these things that are really like earthquakes in your life, 0:08:03.120 --> 0:08:05.440 and like, how do you handle that? So that's important, 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:08.640 And then I think, you know, for me, I'll give 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:11.240 myself as an example. I know that micromanaging is my 0:08:11.320 --> 0:08:14.360 toxic habit. I love a good slut and I love 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:17.040 the good details, and I want to get everything right. 0:08:17.200 --> 0:08:19.520 And so if I know those moments, I can catch myself. 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:22.200 But someone might ask, like, how do you do this? 0:08:22.360 --> 0:08:25.560 It's like for me, I've had career journals throughout my life, 0:08:25.600 --> 0:08:28.680 and I will document things that are happening. And I 0:08:28.760 --> 0:08:32.560 think most people Laura know when they're behaving badly. This 0:08:32.600 --> 0:08:34.680 book is not for the baddest of the bad bosses 0:08:34.679 --> 0:08:36.560 who've made headlines. It's for the rest of us. And 0:08:36.559 --> 0:08:39.200 so most of us know that something's off, and then 0:08:39.240 --> 0:08:41.520 if we can start to document, and then I think 0:08:41.600 --> 0:08:45.360 the next thing is to ask for feedback. And how 0:08:45.400 --> 0:08:48.160 I like to do this is not a former boss 0:08:48.200 --> 0:08:50.680 who would say, at the end of my performance review, 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:53.120 how do you think I'm doing? Tell me how I'm doing, 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:54.960 and you're like ah, And then I tell him the 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:57.280 truth and he loses it and he's like, that's actually 0:08:57.360 --> 0:08:59.600 not true, and I'm like, okay, never giving you feedback again. 0:08:59.720 --> 0:09:02.040 But if you put something in writing, like I say, 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:05.120 Laura looking forward to coffee on Friday when we chat, 0:09:05.160 --> 0:09:06.719 I wanted to share with you some of the things 0:09:06.800 --> 0:09:09.080 I'm working on in terms of my own career development. 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:10.640 One of the things I want to work on is 0:09:10.640 --> 0:09:13.880 how do I delegate faster and how do I help 0:09:14.080 --> 0:09:16.160 coach the team through some of these mistakes. I'd love 0:09:16.160 --> 0:09:19.160 your feedback on that. And actually I wouldn't even use 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:22.480 the word feedback. I would say coaching, right, because feedback 0:09:22.559 --> 0:09:26.480 sounds so like oh, black or white, right or wrong right? 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:28.760 And so if I did that, I give you time 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:30.079 to digest it. 0:09:30.760 --> 0:09:31.599 I'm vulnerable. 0:09:31.679 --> 0:09:34.120 I'm telling you the things I'm working on, and then 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:36.920 when we have the conversation, you might actually say, that's 0:09:36.960 --> 0:09:38.880 not actually what I think you should be working on. 0:09:38.960 --> 0:09:39.920 I actually think it's this. 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:43.840 Well, giving feedback to a manager is incredibly challenging. 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:45.679 Yeah, and I think, well, the first problem is if 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:48.680 your manager is sort of open to good feedback, that 0:09:48.679 --> 0:09:50.040 that manager is probably not that. 0:09:50.080 --> 0:09:51.960 Bad exactly exactly. 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:55.040 Yes, yes, yes, there is a bit of a catch 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:58.040 twenty two here here with this, But I mean, is 0:09:58.040 --> 0:10:00.280 there a way to suss out using that phrase again 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:05.760 if someone is a problematic boss before taking a job, like, 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:07.480 or what are some smart things that we should be 0:10:07.520 --> 0:10:09.080 doing through the interview process? 0:10:09.559 --> 0:10:15.280 Well, a bad boss likely might also be sign of 0:10:15.320 --> 0:10:16.200 toxic culture. 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:16.760 Right. 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:19.360 So one example I have that I'll never forget is 0:10:19.400 --> 0:10:21.760 I interviewed at a big beauty brand and void did 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:24.600 I want this on my resume? And so I'll never forget. 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:27.600 I did eleven rounds of interviews in a day and 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:29.439 they didn't even offer me a glass of water. And 0:10:29.520 --> 0:10:31.520 my mom said, they didn't offer you a glass of water, 0:10:31.559 --> 0:10:34.360 you shouldn't take the job. Isn't that interesting? She said, 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:35.840 they didn't, And I said, no, I'm gonna take it, 0:10:35.880 --> 0:10:37.840 Like that's such a stupid reason not to take the job. 0:10:38.080 --> 0:10:40.400 And let me tell you the signs were there, from 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:43.840 the rushed interview process, from the back to backs to 0:10:44.040 --> 0:10:47.400 the everyone I loved except my future boss isn't that 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:52.640 interesting and so was distracted, disengaged, talked over me, didn't 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:55.040 really seem interested in being there, and I sort of 0:10:55.080 --> 0:10:57.280 overlooked it because I really wanted the job. I mean 0:10:57.320 --> 0:10:57.920 other signs. 0:10:57.960 --> 0:10:58.280 I say. 0:10:58.280 --> 0:11:01.120 It's like I like a good movie trailer. So it's 0:11:01.160 --> 0:11:03.360 the sneak peek into what it might be like to 0:11:03.400 --> 0:11:07.160 work there. So if the organization is hot and cold, 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:11.600 they want you to meet next week, two days of interviewing, 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:13.800 and then they go cold, and then they re engage 0:11:13.840 --> 0:11:15.600 you like two months later, and you see the job 0:11:15.640 --> 0:11:19.240 posting sorely on LinkedIn, there's something up. If the recruiter 0:11:19.320 --> 0:11:22.480 pressures you on the next day to accept the offer 0:11:22.480 --> 0:11:25.240 on the spot, something's up. And then just watch for 0:11:25.280 --> 0:11:31.280 the nonverbals. If people seem in interviews not that interested, 0:11:32.120 --> 0:11:35.880 or there seem like they're going through the motions, everyone's 0:11:35.880 --> 0:11:38.800 showing up late with really no apology or excuse. 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:40.040 You could really. 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:45.200 Sense a lot from what is being unsaid in those conversations. 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:47.679 And sometimes the signs are there and I've been guilty. 0:11:47.720 --> 0:11:50.000 I haven't. I just ignored them. I wanted to jump. 0:11:50.640 --> 0:11:53.199 Well, I mean it's are they showing respect to you? 0:11:53.480 --> 0:11:56.480 Yes, it's in it that would potentially be working with 0:11:57.000 --> 0:12:00.760 as a colleague. Because people don't suddenly become or respectful. 0:12:01.200 --> 0:12:03.200 You will also, Yeah, and you should be on your 0:12:03.200 --> 0:12:06.160 best behavior. Isn't that true when I interview people? Yeah, 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:07.960 I'm going to be myself, but I'm going to try 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:10.160 a little hard to term you just a little bit 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:11.720 extra because I want you to come. 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:12.440 Because you want to. 0:12:12.720 --> 0:12:15.760 Yeah, if they be bothered to spend time with this candidate. 0:12:16.080 --> 0:12:17.280 But but here's the thing. 0:12:17.520 --> 0:12:20.400 So, if you do have a bad boss, if. 0:12:20.320 --> 0:12:22.480 You're working for somebody who would fit in one of 0:12:22.480 --> 0:12:25.280 these categories in your book, is your. 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:26.160 Only option to quit? 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:29.440 Or can you maybe you know, either reach your peace 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:32.160 with the situation or make it better or move yourself around. 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:33.920 Yeah, I mean I think that's a great question. The 0:12:33.960 --> 0:12:35.920 book is not about quit every time you have a 0:12:35.960 --> 0:12:38.719 bad boss. And in my dedication to my children, and 0:12:38.760 --> 0:12:40.440 I said, dedicated the book, and I said, you're going 0:12:40.520 --> 0:12:42.000 to have a bad boss one day, and I'm going 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:44.160 to hand you this book because it's about like we 0:12:44.200 --> 0:12:46.600 will all have bad bosses. But you know, when I 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:49.920 talk about the thirteen, three of them really impacted my 0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:52.600 mental health. And so if it's to the point where 0:12:52.640 --> 0:12:55.360 you're finding yourself being chipped away, you're being screamed at, 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.400 you know true story the Medusa who threw a Chanel 0:12:58.480 --> 0:13:01.240 shoe at my colleague, right, these things, Yeah, that's not 0:13:01.320 --> 0:13:04.240 a place you want to be. But there's a few options. 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:07.040 Number One, you can try to manage the boss, depending 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:09.480 on what the you try to retrain them. We go 0:13:09.559 --> 0:13:12.960 back to your question on how people communicate an over communicator. 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:15.040 I had a boss who would text me pretty much 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:18.600 every other day at six am, just random thoughts and 0:13:18.640 --> 0:13:21.959 things they were thinking, and I wouldn't respond until eight 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:25.240 thirty over email. And I started to retrain them to 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:27.080 go back to email and stop showing up in my 0:13:27.120 --> 0:13:30.080 text unless it's important. The second is you can look 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:33.320 for career allies and sponsors within your company and see 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:36.000 if you can make a move within. And then the 0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:38.679 third thing is if it's something that you don't think 0:13:38.720 --> 0:13:42.640 you can tolerate for much longer, then that's a decision 0:13:42.679 --> 0:13:44.880 you have to make. But if it's someone who's a 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:49.880 micromanaging boss and it's slowly h start creating the exit plan, 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:52.280 but also take the time to say, I'm going to 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:55.559 work for Meta for the next six months, and I'm 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:58.240 going to make sure I get the right bullets on 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:00.880 my resume. Let me make the most of this, right, 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:03.040 I make the most of this opportunity and say I'm 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:05.520 not going to leave until I've finished this project or 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:06.360 learned these skills. 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:08.719 Yeah, well, that can help you feel a lot more 0:14:08.720 --> 0:14:11.520 in charge of a situation too, that it's like, Okay, 0:14:11.520 --> 0:14:12.440 it's just business. 0:14:12.640 --> 0:14:13.600 We're transactional. 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:16.679 I'm not under this person's thumb for the rest of 0:14:16.679 --> 0:14:20.440 my life. I Am just here for the next six 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:20.960 months and. 0:14:21.040 --> 0:14:22.680 Tell it absolutely figure something out. 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:24.880 All right, We're gonna take one more quick ad break 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:34.000 and then I'll be back with more from Meata Mallek. Well, 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:36.600 I am back talking with Meta Malik, who is the 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:38.920 author of the new book The Devil. 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:41.720 Emails at Midnight. Sounding like you've had a lot of 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:43.000 experience in the fashion. 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:45.240 Industry, so with the real sort of Devilwares product kind 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:46.600 of where this comes from. 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:50.880 Yes, a classic bad boss in the in the movies. 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:53.080 So I'm curious you know, what is your I mean, 0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:54.720 this is a productivity show. 0:14:55.320 --> 0:14:56.840 What is your schedule looking like? 0:14:56.920 --> 0:14:57.520 These days? 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:03.200 My schedule is looking like Interestingly enough, I am taking 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:05.760 many more breaks than I used to. I have been 0:15:05.760 --> 0:15:09.000 guilty of taking, you know, treating myself like an uber app. 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:12.080 There'll be days where I'd be on Zoom all day 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:14.080 and then at the end it's like the Zoom hangover. 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:16.600 You're plopping on your couch at nine pm at night 0:15:16.600 --> 0:15:18.480 and You're like, oh my god, like what just happened? 0:15:18.480 --> 0:15:20.760 Because I've been on video all day or calls on day. 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:21.960 So the thing I'm. 0:15:21.760 --> 0:15:24.600 Doing now is I'm actually trying to take walks really quickly, 0:15:24.640 --> 0:15:26.440 even if it's like ten to fifteen minutes, and go 0:15:26.480 --> 0:15:29.960 outside because to energize myself. I also like to do 0:15:30.000 --> 0:15:32.560 a good dance off with my kids, you know, put 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:35.760 some music on anything to just honestly, the productivity hack 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:39.200 for me is to step away from the keyboard so 0:15:39.240 --> 0:15:42.160 I can be more productive, because otherwise I find myself 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:44.640 you'll get sucked into things if you're not blocking out 0:15:44.640 --> 0:15:47.360 time to actually go refresh and recharg I mean, god, 0:15:47.400 --> 0:15:50.960 even our phones need to be recharged, right, So that's 0:15:51.280 --> 0:15:52.920 the biggest hack I have right now. 0:15:53.400 --> 0:15:55.760 Yeah, do you have any sort of morning routine or 0:15:55.760 --> 0:15:57.160 are You're not a morning routine person. 0:15:57.600 --> 0:15:59.560 I am a morning routine person. I mean I get 0:15:59.600 --> 0:16:01.800 up before the calm, the calm before the storm in 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:04.680 my house. So the night before I'm doing everything to 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:06.680 get the kids ready for school or right now it's 0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:08.960 summer camp. God help us, right, So we're doing that, 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:11.960 but everything as much as I can to be prepared 0:16:12.000 --> 0:16:15.200 so that in the morning I can be up alone 0:16:15.760 --> 0:16:18.680 reading or writing and having a cup of tea for 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.960 about fifteen to twenty minutes, depending on when everyone wakes up, 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:26.160 and then it's probably like ninety minutes of everything to 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:28.280 get everyone out of the house and then I'm starting 0:16:28.320 --> 0:16:30.560 my work day or going to the gym and then 0:16:30.800 --> 0:16:31.440 starting work. 0:16:31.640 --> 0:16:34.120 Yeah, so what sort of time are we talking is 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:37.440 this is this quiet moment happening? Like how early do 0:16:37.440 --> 0:16:39.480 you have to be up to get your calm? 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:42.480 It could be as early as I have usually five 0:16:42.600 --> 0:16:45.600 thirty six am. But I'm not somebody who's up at midnight. 0:16:45.920 --> 0:16:48.440 You know, I'm going to say, I am going to 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:52.360 say that I'm not a say I'm not ashamed to 0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:54.560 say I'm sleeping at midnight. And there is this like 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:57.200 anti hustle culture movement where it's like, you should. 0:16:56.880 --> 0:16:59.080 Be my god, you're sleeping at midnight. Right. 0:16:59.600 --> 0:17:01.520 I had a boss be like, you didn't respond to 0:17:01.560 --> 0:17:01.920 my note. 0:17:01.920 --> 0:17:04.160 We needed approval. I'm like, it was eleven o'clock at night. 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:06.600 I'll never forget. This is very pandemic, and he was 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:08.440 annoyed with me. And I woke up in the morning 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:09.080 to all these texts. 0:17:09.080 --> 0:17:09.680 I was like, I was. 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:12.879 Asleep, right, and so, yeah, but you can be guilty 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:14.639 on the other end. So if I'm up early, I'm 0:17:14.680 --> 0:17:17.040 not sending emails. I'm trying not to send emails super 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:18.720 early eiler. Right, it can be either end. 0:17:19.240 --> 0:17:23.400 Yeah, keep it relatively within the context of the work day. 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:27.639 So any sort of other routines that make you more 0:17:27.800 --> 0:17:30.960 productive as you're juggling your various projects. I'm curious what 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:33.320 your sort of planning process looks like with all that. 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:36.600 Yeah, I have Actually people ask me what are you 0:17:36.640 --> 0:17:38.880 using in terms of technology. I love an old school 0:17:38.920 --> 0:17:41.359 notebook and a journal and why I keep it next 0:17:41.359 --> 0:17:44.480 to me in meetings And it's not what you would think. 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:46.920 It's not for a note taking, but it's for idea generation, 0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:50.840 because you can have pretty much in every meeting now 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:55.400 like somebody you know, somebody in quotes taking notes right 0:17:55.480 --> 0:17:58.920 and transcribing them for you. But to have idea generation, 0:17:59.359 --> 0:18:02.280 like if I'm sitting here with you in our conversation 0:18:02.400 --> 0:18:04.639 and something comes up, I could quickly just jot it 0:18:04.680 --> 0:18:07.960 down right, And so that way, that's much more productive 0:18:07.960 --> 0:18:09.439 for me because I can go back and look at 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:12.240