1 00:00:02,960 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 2: Good Morning. This is Laura, Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. 3 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 2: Today's episode is going to be a longer one part 4 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:20,840 Speaker 2: of the series where I interview fascinating people about how 5 00:00:20,880 --> 00:00:23,439 Speaker 2: they take their days from great to awesome and any 6 00:00:23,480 --> 00:00:26,439 Speaker 2: advice they have for the rest of us. So today, 7 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,000 Speaker 2: I'm delighted to welcome Meta Malik to Before Breakfast. Meta 8 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,080 Speaker 2: has worked extensively in marketing and human resources and is 9 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 2: the author of the brand new book, The Devil Emails 10 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:39,640 Speaker 2: at Midnight, What Good Leaders Can Learn From Bad Bosses. 11 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:41,000 Speaker 1: So Vida, welcome to the show. 12 00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 3: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited 13 00:00:43,360 --> 00:00:44,520 Speaker 3: for our conversation today. 14 00:00:45,080 --> 00:00:47,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm excited as well. So why don't you tell 15 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:48,800 Speaker 2: our listeners a little bit about yourself? 16 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 3: So I Meeta Malik. I've been both a marketing and 17 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:56,200 Speaker 3: human resources executive. I'm a passionate storyteller, and I'm on 18 00:00:56,240 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 3: a mission to fix what's broken in our workplaces. 19 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 4: And as you mentioned, I have a new. 20 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 3: Book coming out called The Devil Emails at Midnight, What 21 00:01:02,680 --> 00:01:05,440 Speaker 3: Good Leaders can learn from Good boss from Bad Bosses? 22 00:01:05,800 --> 00:01:09,199 Speaker 3: And what is top of mind for me right now 23 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:11,440 Speaker 3: is I'm on a journey to raise kind and inclusive 24 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:12,120 Speaker 3: human beings. 25 00:01:12,160 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 4: And it's tough. 26 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,440 Speaker 3: And I'm sure every generation of parents said the same thing, 27 00:01:15,520 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 3: But it is. 28 00:01:16,440 --> 00:01:17,640 Speaker 4: It is rough, It. 29 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:20,200 Speaker 2: Is rough, exactly exactly what we all do the best 30 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 2: we can. Well, I want to start with the title 31 00:01:22,680 --> 00:01:27,320 Speaker 2: of your book. Is there anything inherently wrong about emailing 32 00:01:27,319 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 2: at midnight? 33 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 4: M I love that question. 34 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 3: Not inherently, it is the persistent hum of it, the constant, 35 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:40,560 Speaker 3: continuous rhythm of always emailing off hours and in the 36 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 3: double emails at midnight. The opening chapter is the scene 37 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:46,759 Speaker 3: of the boss who never had time for me. So 38 00:01:46,920 --> 00:01:49,760 Speaker 3: I would chase her around the office like a golden retriever. 39 00:01:49,880 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 3: I just wanted to be seen. I wanted hello, I 40 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 3: wanted to thank you. I chased her into the parking 41 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:55,680 Speaker 3: lot once Laura, I was trying like she would never 42 00:01:55,760 --> 00:01:58,040 Speaker 3: have time for me, except between the hours of ten 43 00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 3: pm and two am, where she would dump out or inbox. 44 00:02:02,040 --> 00:02:04,360 Speaker 3: Can you pay this invoice, can you work on the stack? 45 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 3: Can you send this note? And and I was there willing 46 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 3: to respond because I wanted to be seen. And so 47 00:02:09,960 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 3: that's the question is, isn't the biggest complaint in our 48 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 3: relationships that we don't have time for each other. And 49 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:18,119 Speaker 3: so it's true in the workplace too, And so that's 50 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 3: what that's what it really means about, if you're only 51 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 3: available at midnight. 52 00:02:23,240 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, because when I heard that, I mean one of 53 00:02:25,160 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 1: the things you know, we've talked about on this podcast. 54 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:30,320 Speaker 2: And some of the research I've done, and I know 55 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 2: you're a working mom, right that one of the things 56 00:02:33,760 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 2: that happens is a lot of parents who are also 57 00:02:36,360 --> 00:02:40,600 Speaker 2: professionals try to in their work day a hard stop. 58 00:02:41,200 --> 00:02:43,120 Speaker 1: Yes, five thirty for day care pickup. 59 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:46,840 Speaker 4: Yes, absolutely, Ye, you're in it. 60 00:02:46,880 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: I know you're in it right now. 61 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 2: And so then you know, you play with your kid, 62 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:53,800 Speaker 2: put your kid to bed, yes, And now it's email time. 63 00:02:54,480 --> 00:02:58,320 Speaker 1: And so you know, the many people who probably. 64 00:02:58,000 --> 00:03:01,360 Speaker 2: Are emailing in that you know, nine pm, two whatever 65 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:05,680 Speaker 2: window of the day may not always be doing it 66 00:03:05,720 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 2: to be terrible. So I think, you know, we're trying 67 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:09,600 Speaker 2: to figure out, like, what what is the way we. 68 00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 1: Can you know, indicate to people that were not trying 69 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: to be terrible. 70 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:15,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, And I love that you said that some people 71 00:03:15,880 --> 00:03:18,080 Speaker 3: have an out of office or something in their signature 72 00:03:18,120 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 3: that says, these are the hours that work for me. 73 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:22,600 Speaker 3: Don't feel the need to respond. I do think when 74 00:03:22,600 --> 00:03:25,120 Speaker 3: you're the boss, you hold power in your organization. So 75 00:03:25,200 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 3: if I'm repeatedly emailing and doing the second shift, and 76 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:31,560 Speaker 3: then what happens is really interesting, Right, I will you 77 00:03:31,600 --> 00:03:33,160 Speaker 3: work for me, and I will say to you not 78 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,840 Speaker 3: to email me back, but you will, and then this 79 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 3: back and forth. 80 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 4: Right. 81 00:03:37,240 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 3: So some approaches could be delay the sending of it, right, 82 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:43,000 Speaker 3: but then I don't want to wake up in the 83 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,960 Speaker 3: morning and have thirty emails at nine am that'll arrive. 84 00:03:47,040 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 3: That's not helpful either. But anythink Laura, what it forces 85 00:03:49,640 --> 00:03:51,680 Speaker 3: people to do to say, why does this have to 86 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:54,480 Speaker 3: be an email? Because here's what I have been guilty of. 87 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 3: I want to get it off my plate and onto yours, 88 00:03:56,560 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 3: so I just want to send it. So if I 89 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 3: actually paused and said, is this an email? Or is 90 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,120 Speaker 3: this when I know I'm meeting with Laura on Wednesday, 91 00:04:03,160 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 3: I'm putting this on my list for the one on 92 00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 3: one I'm saving that email, or it's going to be 93 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 3: in our team meeting that we do every month, you know. 94 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,040 Speaker 3: So it forces people to really think about you're just 95 00:04:13,280 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 3: using email to dump your inbox out, which sometimes you've 96 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:17,320 Speaker 3: been guilty of, or you're going to be more strategic 97 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:19,000 Speaker 3: of how are you going to communicate with your team? 98 00:04:19,640 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, making good communication is probably you know, thoughtful 99 00:04:23,920 --> 00:04:26,040 Speaker 1: communication is definitely a good boss move. 100 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,240 Speaker 2: So what are some other sort of more toxic forms 101 00:04:30,240 --> 00:04:33,040 Speaker 2: of communication or bad forms of communication that the bad 102 00:04:33,080 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 2: bosses are are own for doing? Well? 103 00:04:35,360 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 3: It kind of started during the pandemic, didn't it. We 104 00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:40,000 Speaker 3: have so many ways to interact with each other from 105 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 3: a technology perspective. So I had a boss who would 106 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 3: you know, send the email? But then it's the slack, 107 00:04:47,600 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 3: the text, the phone call, the missed FaceTime audio. You're like, 108 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:53,800 Speaker 3: wait a minute, I'm in a meeting, Like why do 109 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 3: like I got the email wait for me to respond, right, 110 00:04:57,360 --> 00:04:59,200 Speaker 3: And so it's your point of like what are good 111 00:04:59,200 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 3: communication styles and vehicles? And you have to think about 112 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,040 Speaker 3: like for me, if I go to like tier one, 113 00:05:06,880 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 3: if something is urgent, my team is going to get 114 00:05:09,279 --> 00:05:13,960 Speaker 3: a phone call from me, and that means budget cuts, restructuring, 115 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 3: someone leaving the team. Like it's if you get the 116 00:05:17,160 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 3: phone call, you know I need you right away, and 117 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,240 Speaker 3: then you don't abuse that often, right, because if everything's urgent, 118 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,680 Speaker 3: nothing's urgent. And then when you're emailing something and you 119 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:28,000 Speaker 3: don't need a response for two days or whatever, the 120 00:05:28,040 --> 00:05:30,880 Speaker 3: deadline is, let the person respond because likely they're not 121 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 3: responding because they're in the bathroom, which they're allowed to do. 122 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:36,839 Speaker 3: They're they're taking a snack break or getting some water, 123 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 3: or they're in a meeting doing work. 124 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 2: Yeah, so thinking about what is the urgency level of 125 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:48,360 Speaker 2: the communication and matching the appropriate communication to that. So, 126 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:50,680 Speaker 2: I mean, let's talk about the idea of bad bosses 127 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:52,640 Speaker 2: in general, though, I mean our bad boss is born 128 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 2: or made? 129 00:05:53,560 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: I mean, do people do good bosses become bad bosses? 130 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: Is that something they do? 131 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what I believe, and that's what I've been studying. 132 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:04,200 Speaker 3: Bad bosses are not born, they're made. I've gone from 133 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 3: being a good leader to a bad boss. In the 134 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 3: Devil Emails at Midnight, I chronicle thirteen leaders, including myself. 135 00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 3: And what's interesting, Laura, someone who's a bad boss for 136 00:06:12,400 --> 00:06:14,440 Speaker 3: me could be a good boss for you. And so 137 00:06:14,480 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 3: it's about context and situation. This boss could be a 138 00:06:18,200 --> 00:06:21,680 Speaker 3: terrible micromanager for me, like oh my god, Mike Maridgian. 139 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 4: And then you might be newer to the team, and 140 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 4: so they actually know. 141 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:27,680 Speaker 3: I need this level of support and hold handholding for 142 00:06:27,720 --> 00:06:30,000 Speaker 3: the moment, and so I think that's really important. But 143 00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 3: we can swing from being good to bad and bad 144 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:33,840 Speaker 3: to good. 145 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 2: Okay, Well, let's hope that we're all going in the 146 00:06:37,600 --> 00:06:40,400 Speaker 2: right direction. Then I'm going to take a quick ad 147 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:49,960 Speaker 2: break and then I'll be back with more from Meta Malik. Well, 148 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 2: I am back talking with Meta Malik, who is the 149 00:06:52,520 --> 00:06:56,160 Speaker 2: author of the brand new book The Devil Emails at Midnight. 150 00:06:57,240 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 2: So let's talk a little bit more about if somebody 151 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 2: is listening to this and wondering, Hm, am I a 152 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:06,600 Speaker 2: bad boss? 153 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:07,880 Speaker 4: Yeah? 154 00:07:07,960 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 2: I mean it doesn't always get you know, written on 155 00:07:10,080 --> 00:07:13,360 Speaker 2: the board like she's a bad boss, she's terrible. How 156 00:07:13,400 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 2: can we suss that out if our team members are 157 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: unhappy with our leadership? 158 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:19,960 Speaker 3: I love that you used daughter language from my daughter, 159 00:07:20,040 --> 00:07:24,200 Speaker 3: sus it out right. Here's what I would say is 160 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 3: that there are three moments when bad boss behavior is 161 00:07:26,960 --> 00:07:30,160 Speaker 3: going to show up. Typically, one is something's happening in 162 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 3: the external market. They're tariffs, your competition has beat you 163 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,680 Speaker 3: to the market with innovation, something has an m and 164 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 3: a acquisition has failed. Right, something's happening, it's causing havoc, 165 00:07:41,920 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 3: it's causing stress. Second, your boss is behaving badly, and 166 00:07:45,960 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 3: in my house we say pooh pooh, trickles down. So 167 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 3: now you're taking on this person's energy. And then the 168 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,960 Speaker 3: third is something's happened in your personal life. You've lost 169 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 3: a loved one, you've suffered a miscarriage, you break up, divorce, move, 170 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,119 Speaker 3: all these things that are really like earthquakes in your life, 171 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:05,440 Speaker 3: and like, how do you handle that? So that's important, 172 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 3: And then I think, you know, for me, I'll give 173 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 3: myself as an example. I know that micromanaging is my 174 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 3: toxic habit. I love a good slut and I love 175 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 3: the good details, and I want to get everything right. 176 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 3: And so if I know those moments, I can catch myself. 177 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,200 Speaker 3: But someone might ask, like, how do you do this? 178 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 3: It's like for me, I've had career journals throughout my life, 179 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 3: and I will document things that are happening. And I 180 00:08:28,760 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 3: think most people Laura know when they're behaving badly. This 181 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:34,680 Speaker 3: book is not for the baddest of the bad bosses 182 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 3: who've made headlines. It's for the rest of us. And 183 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,200 Speaker 3: so most of us know that something's off, and then 184 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:41,520 Speaker 3: if we can start to document, and then I think 185 00:08:41,600 --> 00:08:45,360 Speaker 3: the next thing is to ask for feedback. And how 186 00:08:45,400 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 3: I like to do this is not a former boss 187 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:50,680 Speaker 3: who would say, at the end of my performance review, 188 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 3: how do you think I'm doing? Tell me how I'm doing, 189 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 3: and you're like ah, And then I tell him the 190 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 3: truth and he loses it and he's like, that's actually 191 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 3: not true, and I'm like, okay, never giving you feedback again. 192 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 3: But if you put something in writing, like I say, 193 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 3: Laura looking forward to coffee on Friday when we chat, 194 00:09:05,160 --> 00:09:06,719 Speaker 3: I wanted to share with you some of the things 195 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:09,080 Speaker 3: I'm working on in terms of my own career development. 196 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 3: One of the things I want to work on is 197 00:09:10,640 --> 00:09:13,880 Speaker 3: how do I delegate faster and how do I help 198 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,160 Speaker 3: coach the team through some of these mistakes. I'd love 199 00:09:16,160 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 3: your feedback on that. And actually I wouldn't even use 200 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 3: the word feedback. I would say coaching, right, because feedback 201 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,480 Speaker 3: sounds so like oh, black or white, right or wrong right? 202 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:28,760 Speaker 3: And so if I did that, I give you time 203 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:30,079 Speaker 3: to digest it. 204 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:31,599 Speaker 4: I'm vulnerable. 205 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:34,120 Speaker 3: I'm telling you the things I'm working on, and then 206 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 3: when we have the conversation, you might actually say, that's 207 00:09:36,960 --> 00:09:38,880 Speaker 3: not actually what I think you should be working on. 208 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 4: I actually think it's this. 209 00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 1: Well, giving feedback to a manager is incredibly challenging. 210 00:09:44,160 --> 00:09:45,679 Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think, well, the first problem is if 211 00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,680 Speaker 2: your manager is sort of open to good feedback, that 212 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 2: that manager is probably not that. 213 00:09:50,080 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 4: Bad exactly exactly. 214 00:09:52,280 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, there is a bit of a catch 215 00:09:55,080 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 2: twenty two here here with this, But I mean, is 216 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 2: there a way to suss out using that phrase again 217 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:05,760 Speaker 2: if someone is a problematic boss before taking a job, like, 218 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 2: or what are some smart things that we should be 219 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 2: doing through the interview process? 220 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:15,280 Speaker 3: Well, a bad boss likely might also be sign of 221 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 3: toxic culture. 222 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:16,760 Speaker 1: Right. 223 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 3: So one example I have that I'll never forget is 224 00:10:19,400 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 3: I interviewed at a big beauty brand and void did 225 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:24,600 Speaker 3: I want this on my resume? And so I'll never forget. 226 00:10:24,640 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 3: I did eleven rounds of interviews in a day and 227 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:29,439 Speaker 3: they didn't even offer me a glass of water. And 228 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 3: my mom said, they didn't offer you a glass of water, 229 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 3: you shouldn't take the job. Isn't that interesting? She said, 230 00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 3: they didn't, And I said, no, I'm gonna take it, 231 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:37,840 Speaker 3: Like that's such a stupid reason not to take the job. 232 00:10:38,080 --> 00:10:40,400 Speaker 3: And let me tell you the signs were there, from 233 00:10:40,559 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 3: the rushed interview process, from the back to backs to 234 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 3: the everyone I loved except my future boss isn't that 235 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:52,640 Speaker 3: interesting and so was distracted, disengaged, talked over me, didn't 236 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 3: really seem interested in being there, and I sort of 237 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 3: overlooked it because I really wanted the job. I mean 238 00:10:57,320 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 3: other signs. 239 00:10:57,960 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 4: I say. 240 00:10:58,280 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 3: It's like I like a good movie trailer. So it's 241 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 3: the sneak peek into what it might be like to 242 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:07,160 Speaker 3: work there. So if the organization is hot and cold, 243 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 3: they want you to meet next week, two days of interviewing, 244 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 3: and then they go cold, and then they re engage 245 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 3: you like two months later, and you see the job 246 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 3: posting sorely on LinkedIn, there's something up. If the recruiter 247 00:11:19,320 --> 00:11:22,480 Speaker 3: pressures you on the next day to accept the offer 248 00:11:22,480 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 3: on the spot, something's up. And then just watch for 249 00:11:25,280 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 3: the nonverbals. If people seem in interviews not that interested, 250 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 3: or there seem like they're going through the motions, everyone's 251 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 3: showing up late with really no apology or excuse. 252 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:40,040 Speaker 4: You could really. 253 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,200 Speaker 3: Sense a lot from what is being unsaid in those conversations. 254 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 3: And sometimes the signs are there and I've been guilty. 255 00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 4: I haven't. I just ignored them. I wanted to jump. 256 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:53,199 Speaker 1: Well, I mean it's are they showing respect to you? 257 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 2: Yes, it's in it that would potentially be working with 258 00:11:57,000 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 2: as a colleague. Because people don't suddenly become or respectful. 259 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 3: You will also, Yeah, and you should be on your 260 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 3: best behavior. Isn't that true when I interview people? Yeah, 261 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:07,960 Speaker 3: I'm going to be myself, but I'm going to try 262 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 3: a little hard to term you just a little bit 263 00:12:10,200 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 3: extra because I want you to come. 264 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 4: Because you want to. 265 00:12:12,720 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, if they be bothered to spend time with this candidate. 266 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:17,280 Speaker 4: But but here's the thing. 267 00:12:17,520 --> 00:12:20,400 Speaker 1: So, if you do have a bad boss, if. 268 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 2: You're working for somebody who would fit in one of 269 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:25,280 Speaker 2: these categories in your book, is your. 270 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:26,160 Speaker 1: Only option to quit? 271 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:29,440 Speaker 2: Or can you maybe you know, either reach your peace 272 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 2: with the situation or make it better or move yourself around. 273 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean I think that's a great question. The 274 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 3: book is not about quit every time you have a 275 00:12:35,960 --> 00:12:38,719 Speaker 3: bad boss. And in my dedication to my children, and 276 00:12:38,760 --> 00:12:40,440 Speaker 3: I said, dedicated the book, and I said, you're going 277 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:42,000 Speaker 3: to have a bad boss one day, and I'm going 278 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:44,160 Speaker 3: to hand you this book because it's about like we 279 00:12:44,200 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 3: will all have bad bosses. But you know, when I 280 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 3: talk about the thirteen, three of them really impacted my 281 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:52,600 Speaker 3: mental health. And so if it's to the point where 282 00:12:52,640 --> 00:12:55,360 Speaker 3: you're finding yourself being chipped away, you're being screamed at, 283 00:12:55,720 --> 00:12:58,400 Speaker 3: you know true story the Medusa who threw a Chanel 284 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 3: shoe at my colleague, right, these things, Yeah, that's not 285 00:13:01,320 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 3: a place you want to be. But there's a few options. 286 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 3: Number One, you can try to manage the boss, depending 287 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 3: on what the you try to retrain them. We go 288 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,960 Speaker 3: back to your question on how people communicate an over communicator. 289 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 3: I had a boss who would text me pretty much 290 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 3: every other day at six am, just random thoughts and 291 00:13:18,640 --> 00:13:21,959 Speaker 3: things they were thinking, and I wouldn't respond until eight 292 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 3: thirty over email. And I started to retrain them to 293 00:13:25,320 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 3: go back to email and stop showing up in my 294 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:30,080 Speaker 3: text unless it's important. The second is you can look 295 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 3: for career allies and sponsors within your company and see 296 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 3: if you can make a move within. And then the 297 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:38,679 Speaker 3: third thing is if it's something that you don't think 298 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 3: you can tolerate for much longer, then that's a decision 299 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:44,880 Speaker 3: you have to make. But if it's someone who's a 300 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 3: micromanaging boss and it's slowly h start creating the exit plan, 301 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,280 Speaker 3: but also take the time to say, I'm going to 302 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,559 Speaker 3: work for Meta for the next six months, and I'm 303 00:13:55,600 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 3: going to make sure I get the right bullets on 304 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 3: my resume. Let me make the most of this, right, 305 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 3: I make the most of this opportunity and say I'm 306 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 3: not going to leave until I've finished this project or 307 00:14:05,640 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 3: learned these skills. 308 00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:08,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, that can help you feel a lot more 309 00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 2: in charge of a situation too, that it's like, Okay, 310 00:14:11,520 --> 00:14:12,440 Speaker 2: it's just business. 311 00:14:12,640 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: We're transactional. 312 00:14:13,640 --> 00:14:16,679 Speaker 2: I'm not under this person's thumb for the rest of 313 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:20,440 Speaker 2: my life. I Am just here for the next six 314 00:14:20,520 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 2: months and. 315 00:14:21,040 --> 00:14:22,680 Speaker 1: Tell it absolutely figure something out. 316 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:24,880 Speaker 2: All right, We're gonna take one more quick ad break 317 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 2: and then I'll be back with more from Meata Mallek. Well, 318 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 2: I am back talking with Meta Malik, who is the 319 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:38,920 Speaker 2: author of the new book The Devil. 320 00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:41,720 Speaker 1: Emails at Midnight. Sounding like you've had a lot of 321 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:43,000 Speaker 1: experience in the fashion. 322 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 2: Industry, so with the real sort of Devilwares product kind 323 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 2: of where this comes from. 324 00:14:46,680 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: Yes, a classic bad boss in the in the movies. 325 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 2: So I'm curious you know, what is your I mean, 326 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 2: this is a productivity show. 327 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: What is your schedule looking like? 328 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 4: These days? 329 00:14:58,480 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 3: My schedule is looking like Interestingly enough, I am taking 330 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 3: many more breaks than I used to. I have been 331 00:15:05,760 --> 00:15:09,000 Speaker 3: guilty of taking, you know, treating myself like an uber app. 332 00:15:10,160 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 3: There'll be days where I'd be on Zoom all day 333 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 3: and then at the end it's like the Zoom hangover. 334 00:15:14,520 --> 00:15:16,600 Speaker 3: You're plopping on your couch at nine pm at night 335 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 3: and You're like, oh my god, like what just happened? 336 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 4: Because I've been on video all day or calls on day. 337 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:21,960 Speaker 4: So the thing I'm. 338 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 3: Doing now is I'm actually trying to take walks really quickly, 339 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:26,440 Speaker 3: even if it's like ten to fifteen minutes, and go 340 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 3: outside because to energize myself. I also like to do 341 00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 3: a good dance off with my kids, you know, put 342 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:35,760 Speaker 3: some music on anything to just honestly, the productivity hack 343 00:15:35,840 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 3: for me is to step away from the keyboard so 344 00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 3: I can be more productive, because otherwise I find myself 345 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:44,640 Speaker 3: you'll get sucked into things if you're not blocking out 346 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 3: time to actually go refresh and recharg I mean, god, 347 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 3: even our phones need to be recharged, right, So that's 348 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:52,920 Speaker 3: the biggest hack I have right now. 349 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:55,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, do you have any sort of morning routine or 350 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 2: are You're not a morning routine person. 351 00:15:57,600 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 3: I am a morning routine person. I mean I get 352 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 3: up before the calm, the calm before the storm in 353 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 3: my house. So the night before I'm doing everything to 354 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 3: get the kids ready for school or right now it's 355 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 3: summer camp. God help us, right, So we're doing that, 356 00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:11,960 Speaker 3: but everything as much as I can to be prepared 357 00:16:12,000 --> 00:16:15,200 Speaker 3: so that in the morning I can be up alone 358 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,680 Speaker 3: reading or writing and having a cup of tea for 359 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,960 Speaker 3: about fifteen to twenty minutes, depending on when everyone wakes up, 360 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 3: and then it's probably like ninety minutes of everything to 361 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:28,280 Speaker 3: get everyone out of the house and then I'm starting 362 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:30,560 Speaker 3: my work day or going to the gym and then 363 00:16:30,800 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 3: starting work. 364 00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, so what sort of time are we talking is 365 00:16:34,160 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 2: this is this quiet moment happening? Like how early do 366 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 2: you have to be up to get your calm? 367 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 3: It could be as early as I have usually five 368 00:16:42,600 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 3: thirty six am. But I'm not somebody who's up at midnight. 369 00:16:45,920 --> 00:16:48,440 Speaker 3: You know, I'm going to say, I am going to 370 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 3: say that I'm not a say I'm not ashamed to 371 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 3: say I'm sleeping at midnight. And there is this like 372 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 3: anti hustle culture movement where it's like, you should. 373 00:16:56,880 --> 00:16:59,080 Speaker 4: Be my god, you're sleeping at midnight. Right. 374 00:16:59,600 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 3: I had a boss be like, you didn't respond to 375 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:01,920 Speaker 3: my note. 376 00:17:01,920 --> 00:17:04,160 Speaker 4: We needed approval. I'm like, it was eleven o'clock at night. 377 00:17:04,560 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 3: I'll never forget. This is very pandemic, and he was 378 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:08,440 Speaker 3: annoyed with me. And I woke up in the morning 379 00:17:08,440 --> 00:17:09,080 Speaker 3: to all these texts. 380 00:17:09,080 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 4: I was like, I was. 381 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:12,879 Speaker 3: Asleep, right, and so, yeah, but you can be guilty 382 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:14,639 Speaker 3: on the other end. So if I'm up early, I'm 383 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 3: not sending emails. I'm trying not to send emails super 384 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 3: early eiler. Right, it can be either end. 385 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:23,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, keep it relatively within the context of the work day. 386 00:17:24,520 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 2: So any sort of other routines that make you more 387 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 2: productive as you're juggling your various projects. I'm curious what 388 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,320 Speaker 2: your sort of planning process looks like with all that. 389 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, I have Actually people ask me what are you 390 00:17:36,640 --> 00:17:38,880 Speaker 3: using in terms of technology. I love an old school 391 00:17:38,920 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 3: notebook and a journal and why I keep it next 392 00:17:41,359 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 3: to me in meetings And it's not what you would think. 393 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 3: It's not for a note taking, but it's for idea generation, 394 00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:50,840 Speaker 3: because you can have pretty much in every meeting now 395 00:17:50,960 --> 00:17:55,400 Speaker 3: like somebody you know, somebody in quotes taking notes right 396 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 3: and transcribing them for you. But to have idea generation, 397 00:17:59,359 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 3: like if I'm sitting here with you in our conversation 398 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 3: and something comes up, I could quickly just jot it 399 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 3: down right, And so that way, that's much more productive 400 00:18:07,960 --> 00:18:09,439 Speaker 3: for me because I can go back and look at 401 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 3: all those ideas and it's not a paragraph, but it 402 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:14,320 Speaker 3: might be something that you said like two words, and 403 00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 3: I write it down. So then when I go back later, 404 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,960 Speaker 3: I'm inspired to write a social media post, write an article, 405 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:22,240 Speaker 3: it might be the book idea And so that's really 406 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:22,920 Speaker 3: important to me. 407 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 2: And I also it's saying you find it good to 408 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 2: have it as a paper notebook. 409 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:30,639 Speaker 3: I do. I do, but because for me, when I 410 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:33,760 Speaker 3: write something down, I digest it and I remember it. 411 00:18:34,280 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 3: That doesn't mean that I'm like handwriting my books, but 412 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 3: I do think there are some moments where I think 413 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 3: if I can write it down, it will stick with 414 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 3: me much more. 415 00:18:42,560 --> 00:18:43,919 Speaker 4: And then I'm doing what many other. 416 00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:46,280 Speaker 3: People are doing, which is you have to block sort 417 00:18:46,280 --> 00:18:49,119 Speaker 3: of if you make your calendar access to access to everyone, 418 00:18:49,200 --> 00:18:51,720 Speaker 3: then don't be upset if you're booked, you know, seven 419 00:18:51,760 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 3: to seven, and so you know, blocking time to do 420 00:18:54,680 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 3: email or writing or you know, thinking and actual work 421 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:01,160 Speaker 3: is important. 422 00:19:01,359 --> 00:19:02,439 Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's interesting. 423 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, tasks take time, and so if you 424 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 2: aren't willing to allocate times to them, then they. 425 00:19:08,960 --> 00:19:10,439 Speaker 1: Exactly aren't going to happen. 426 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:14,440 Speaker 2: So right, that's what has us maybe emailing at midnight sometimes. 427 00:19:14,440 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 4: Absolutely, I haven't built in. 428 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:17,800 Speaker 2: Time during the day, which is that what I mean 429 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 2: should a god boss do that? I mean, should they 430 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:24,800 Speaker 2: be blocking out time for those those emails and that 431 00:19:24,920 --> 00:19:27,000 Speaker 2: administration stuff like that? I mean very you know, how 432 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:29,280 Speaker 2: would you see as like a good boss scheduled during 433 00:19:29,480 --> 00:19:29,880 Speaker 2: they should? 434 00:19:29,960 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 3: I mean, but with the you think about in the 435 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,320 Speaker 3: race to embrace AI, a lot of this work should 436 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,280 Speaker 3: be automated. And you hope that AI doesn't create a 437 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:40,280 Speaker 3: generation of lazy bosses, right because if a lot of 438 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 3: this work is being automated, then you actually have time. 439 00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:44,480 Speaker 3: The biggest complaint we started is not enough time for 440 00:19:44,560 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 3: my team. And I think about my calendar like I 441 00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 3: think about my closet. There's a bunch of stuff I 442 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:50,440 Speaker 3: don't wear. There's a bunch of stuff I don't need, 443 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 3: bunch of stuff that's outgrown, et cetera, et cetera. You know, 444 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:55,600 Speaker 3: the worst feeling, Laura is like you're in a meeting 445 00:19:55,640 --> 00:19:57,159 Speaker 3: and you all show up and you're like, what's this 446 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 3: meeting about? Nobody knows. You hang around for ten fifteen minutes, 447 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,719 Speaker 3: and then someone maybe has the courage to call it, 448 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 3: or it goes on for a while and then the 449 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 3: person's like, oh, Laura was supposed to be here, she's 450 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:08,679 Speaker 3: the decision maker, she's out on vacation. 451 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 4: Oops. What. 452 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 3: Or it's a meeting that's just been going on for 453 00:20:12,080 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 3: months that you don't need anymore. And so I think 454 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 3: finding people having the courage to say, we're not doing 455 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 3: this meeting because of the following reasons. It's being discussed elsewhere. 456 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:24,199 Speaker 3: It could be a slack approval's already done, the project's finished, 457 00:20:24,240 --> 00:20:26,440 Speaker 3: get the meeting off the calendar, and then you actually 458 00:20:26,520 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 3: have more time to be emailing. You have more time 459 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:32,600 Speaker 3: to be meeting with people and teaching them and coaching them. 460 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 3: And many bosses and some organizations you've got assistants who 461 00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:39,680 Speaker 3: can also help you track your time as well. 462 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:42,719 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, well time is valuable and treating it as 463 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:47,200 Speaker 2: such is very important. So ATA I always ask my guests, 464 00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:49,679 Speaker 2: what is something you have done recently to take a 465 00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 2: day from great to awesome? 466 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,520 Speaker 3: Take a day from great to awesome? What an amazing question? 467 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,199 Speaker 3: Just duck out early, can things and go with my 468 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 3: kids to get ice cream, to go to the movies, 469 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 3: to do something spontaneous that sparks a moment of joy 470 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 3: that they like to do, and I'm happy to join 471 00:21:10,920 --> 00:21:11,199 Speaker 3: them in. 472 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 4: Those are the things. 473 00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 3: And I'm not canceling on people last minute, but just like, oh, 474 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:17,040 Speaker 3: this can be moved, Like why is this. 475 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 4: Is actually urgent? It's not urgent, but it's important. 476 00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:22,600 Speaker 3: I'm going to push it out a few days and 477 00:21:22,640 --> 00:21:24,920 Speaker 3: so yeah, that's like when I feel like I get 478 00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 3: to spend time with the people I love, it goes 479 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:28,680 Speaker 3: to being like just a great day. 480 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:31,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, awesome, that is awesome. And what are you looking 481 00:21:31,840 --> 00:21:32,880 Speaker 1: forward to right now? 482 00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:36,359 Speaker 3: I'm looking forward to my kids going back to school 483 00:21:38,320 --> 00:21:42,240 Speaker 3: and leaving summer camp patchwork, which for any any parents 484 00:21:42,280 --> 00:21:44,360 Speaker 3: working outside the home, it's tough, right it is. 485 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:45,560 Speaker 4: It's tough with them. 486 00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:49,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean the hours are different, the you know, 487 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 2: some have some have before care and aftercare which is great. 488 00:21:51,880 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 2: Not I'll do, but then you know there's often not 489 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:56,960 Speaker 2: the bus, right, like you know you had the bus. 490 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:58,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, all those things everything. 491 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 3: I'm so excited for my book to come out because 492 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 3: I really feel like it's going to really help people 493 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 3: and change the way they think about work and how 494 00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 3: they lead and how they interact with each other. So 495 00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 3: that is something I'm really looking forward to to a 496 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 3: thing out and hearing people read it and tell me 497 00:22:13,720 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 3: what they think about it. 498 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:18,000 Speaker 1: Absolutely well, meet it. Where can people find you? 499 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,000 Speaker 3: You can find me on LinkedIn. I love to meet 500 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 3: new people, so please DM me and you can find 501 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:23,240 Speaker 3: me on. 502 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 4: Medamalk dot com. 503 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:27,240 Speaker 3: And the book The Double Emails at Midnight, available on Amazon, 504 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:31,000 Speaker 3: Barnes and Noble, your local independent bookstore anywhere you buy books. 505 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 2: Absolutely all right, Well, Anita, thank you so much for 506 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 2: joining us. Thank you to everyone for listening. If you 507 00:22:36,840 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 2: have feedback about this or any other episode, you can 508 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,560 Speaker 2: always reach me at Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. 509 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 2: I may email you back at midnight, but you don't 510 00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:48,920 Speaker 2: have to respond to me then. So in the meantime, 511 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 2: this is Laura. 512 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,639 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and here's to making the most of 513 00:22:52,680 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 1: our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. If you've 514 00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 1: got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach me at 515 00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 1: Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast is a 516 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:17,160 Speaker 1: production of iHeartMedia. 517 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, please visit the iHeartRadio app, 518 00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:22,399 Speaker 2: Apple 519 00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 1: Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.