Speaker 1: Hey everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello friends,
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Work in Progress. Today we are joined
Speaker 1: by an actor that I am such an enormous fan of.
Speaker 1: You likely know him from his award nominated role as
Speaker 1: Luke Bankole in Hulu's groundbreaking drama series The Handmaid's Tale.
Speaker 1: I was obsessed with his character in Presumed Innocent alongside
Speaker 1: Jake jillen Hal, Ruth Naga, and Peter Sarsgard. And he
Speaker 1: was absolutely hysterical in Loot alongside Maya Rudolph, and amazing
Speaker 1: on Netflix's No Good Deed with Lisa Krudiro, Ray Romano
Speaker 1: and Dennis Leary. Ot is here today to talk about art,
Speaker 1: the last season of The Handmaid's Tale, politics, parenthood, and
Speaker 1: everything in between. And I'm going to have to pick
Speaker 1: his brain about what it was like to play former
Speaker 1: President Barack Obama. Let's jump in with Otfat Bentley.
Speaker 2: How we baseball capt it?
Speaker 1: We sure did? I love it? I should have thrown
Speaker 1: my Dodgers hat on.
Speaker 3: Someone closes a gift.
Speaker 2: I don't know anything about baseball.
Speaker 1: Baseball for me is really more about going with friends
Speaker 1: and like getting the hot dog in the beer and
Speaker 1: having the experience.
Speaker 2: I'm not good in.
Speaker 3: Public, like big lots of people, like lots of people
Speaker 3: around it. I'm not I'm such a humbody. I never
Speaker 3: I never really get out very much. I'm a big
Speaker 3: basketball fan, and even like every now and then, like
Speaker 3: some opportunity to go watch your game will come up
Speaker 3: and I'll be like, I'm good in my garage right now.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean you can.
Speaker 1: You can see it better on ESPN. Anyway, this is
Speaker 1: what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: I don't even know what the advance.
Speaker 3: I ate uncomfortable seats, you don't get to zee all
Speaker 3: the angles, I don't know where my glasses I'm squinting.
Speaker 1: Well, what we're going to have to do at some
Speaker 1: point is get you to a Liberty game so you
Speaker 1: can see the Girlies play, because Barclay Stadium for that
Speaker 1: team is the most fun I ever have in a crowd.
Speaker 1: And I don't love a crowd either.
Speaker 3: Okay, I have not seen the Liberty play, but I've
Speaker 3: seen plenty of ladies basketball.
Speaker 2: My sister's in the w tell me, yeah, yeah, she's Oh.
Speaker 3: My goodness, it's not an overstatement to say that she
Speaker 3: is the most decorated British basketball player man or woman
Speaker 3: of all time.
Speaker 1: Wow. I thought I was going to ask you all
Speaker 1: about your shows today, and here I am being like,
Speaker 1: what's what's it like to be the brother of one
Speaker 1: of the goats? How does that feel?
Speaker 2: It feels great.
Speaker 3: I remember the first time because we I cover a
Speaker 3: basketball in family, and I remember the first time, like
Speaker 3: she took me down into the post and like, you know,
Speaker 3: like gating the old elbow and like made him lay
Speaker 3: up on me. And I was like, oh, okay, when
Speaker 3: your little sister can dunk, it's a great thing.
Speaker 2: Yeah. We used to play outdoor basketball lot and we
Speaker 2: I take it.
Speaker 3: You know, we go down to the outdoor court and
Speaker 3: there one day in particular, I remember that she was
Speaker 3: wearing like a summer dress and she was just dominating
Speaker 3: and it was just like watching these guys have to
Speaker 3: little bit of someone in a dress taking him down
Speaker 3: and like post.
Speaker 2: Moves on him. It's one of the happiest moments in
Speaker 2: my life.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, what a vibe. Yeah, that feels like
Speaker 1: the next you know, Nike Adidas commercial getting ready to go.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, that's true. I should pitch it right one.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'll direct that all right, this is actually
Speaker 1: a perfect segue. Well, first, where are you today? Where
Speaker 1: are you in the world right now?
Speaker 3: I'm in my garage in la in yeah, West Adams.
Speaker 1: Okay, cool? Oh, I love it. Yeah, I went to
Speaker 1: USC so I'll where then I grew it. Well, I
Speaker 1: went for a BFA in theater, all right, and everyone
Speaker 1: was great, by the way, But I you know, at eighteen,
Speaker 1: I think I just sort of thought, is all we're
Speaker 1: going to do? Sit around and question our instincts all day?
Speaker 1: I think this is really starting to make me a
Speaker 1: crazy self conscious person. And so I wound up shifting
Speaker 1: and studying journalism and political science at Annenberg Okay. And
Speaker 1: I loved it because, in this weird way, what it
Speaker 1: did was it took every movie I watched, every play
Speaker 1: that I read, and it made me really think about
Speaker 1: how does it feel grounded? How does it feel real?
Speaker 1: Every one of these stories should be the sort of
Speaker 1: story that might be covered on the news one day, right,
Speaker 1: like anybody's life can can be looked at like that.
Speaker 1: So it gave me this balance that I think I needed.
Speaker 1: You're a drama kid too, Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well I find drama kid. But basically, yes, I think
Speaker 2: probably under any definition.
Speaker 3: I started drama classes when I was around ten and
Speaker 3: then and then I was going to go study economics
Speaker 3: and politics at college. And then I, like, on a whim,
Speaker 3: almost I thought, let me try and see if I
Speaker 3: can get to drama school, which is a very unlikely
Speaker 3: thing to happen, to be honest, because in England back then,
Speaker 3: back in my day, they basically would like audition like
Speaker 3: two thousand people and they would take seventeen boys, and
Speaker 3: each year at rather they would take like one black
Speaker 3: kid like and so yeah, that was the average, and
Speaker 3: so the odds one great. Yeah, and so I didn't
Speaker 3: expect to get in, and then I did get in,
Speaker 3: and I was like, oh, I guess this is now
Speaker 3: the root of my life.
Speaker 2: So we almost went we went different ways.
Speaker 3: You started studying theater and w.
Speaker 2: And I did the opposite.
Speaker 1: So yeah, that's so funny. All right. So that's interesting
Speaker 1: because I always wonder, you know, I sit across from
Speaker 1: somebody like you, and people know your work, they've watched you,
Speaker 1: they have relationships with you based on you know, series
Speaker 1: or films or theater even and I'm always really curious
Speaker 1: if we went back in time, you know, maybe to
Speaker 1: that boy that was watching his sister dunk and address
Speaker 1: if you got to hang out with yourself when you
Speaker 1: were nine or ten years old, now, do you think
Speaker 1: you'd see the man you are today and that kid?
Speaker 1: Do you think you guys would have so much to
Speaker 1: kind of go? Ah, I get it. I see how
Speaker 1: you became this person, and you could look at him
Speaker 1: and go, holy shit, you were always like this.
Speaker 2: You know what?
Speaker 3: And this is I don't know how many of your
Speaker 3: listeners have this, but I don't have a good sense
Speaker 3: of myself as a child. I don't have a very
Speaker 3: good memory for back then. I have scattered pieces, and
Speaker 3: so I feel quite disassociated with my younger self. And
Speaker 3: it sounds weird to say, but my relationship with my
Speaker 3: younger self is similar to my relationship with my stories
Speaker 3: of my granddad before I was born, Like I feel
Speaker 3: connected to it. It's part of my history. But I
Speaker 3: find it's very untutored to think that's me. I don't
Speaker 3: have a strong connection to like there was some kid
Speaker 3: who existed and that kid.
Speaker 2: Grew to become me.
Speaker 3: But I don't, you know, it's not completely like that,
Speaker 3: but it's partly like that. That being said, so, I'm
Speaker 3: always curious and hungry to ask I was my mom,
Speaker 3: my dad, parents and family and Besina what they remember
Speaker 3: of me as a kid. And it seems like it
Speaker 3: checks out. It seems like there was no news departure.
Speaker 3: There was there was consistency, even though there isn't like
Speaker 3: a lot of memory of that consistency.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I get that. It's funny. I have that conversation
Speaker 1: with my family sometimes too. There's there's these sort of
Speaker 1: seminal moments that I remember. But then my parents will
Speaker 1: ask me about things, and sometimes I feel so bad
Speaker 1: when they go, what you don't remember this? And I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: I was probably in the backyard chasing a butterfly. I
Speaker 1: don't know what I was doing, right, I wasn't. It
Speaker 1: wasn't kind of imprinting on me. I think in the
Speaker 1: way it might have for an adult who was conscious
Speaker 1: of a moment in time or their child's achievement. You know. Now,
Speaker 1: I wonder when I look at the kids in my life,
Speaker 1: I'm like, what are you going to remember? Are you
Speaker 1: going to know that you were so obsessed with this
Speaker 1: movie and we had to watch it every night for
Speaker 1: seven months? Like or will it just be a memory
Speaker 1: in the bag. I don't know.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly a lot of them remember to talk
Speaker 3: like you know I have I have a three year
Speaker 3: old and a two year.
Speaker 2: Old and oh super cute.
Speaker 3: But it is interesting just going, oh, you know what
Speaker 3: feels like the majority of my life energy is focused
Speaker 3: towards pouring into them and going oh what does this
Speaker 3: mean that that you won't remember all these tips in
Speaker 3: the part and then you know, like, so what's the
Speaker 3: value of this? And you know, kind of like getting
Speaker 3: through studies and life that oh yeah, well this all
Speaker 3: does go, this all does pay into them, this all
Speaker 3: does develop something. It just won't be memories of like
Speaker 3: a thousand change diapers and that's.
Speaker 2: Weird to think. Yeah.
Speaker 3: And also, you know when adults say to you like, oh,
Speaker 3: you know, I used to change the diaper as a kid.
Speaker 2: There's nothing I find more relevant.
Speaker 3: Than what you used to do for my kids. You know,
Speaker 3: it's like, okay, great, next subject. You know so, and
Speaker 3: it's going to be like that for them, you know, okay, great,
Speaker 3: da dude.
Speaker 2: Totally.
Speaker 1: It's like the thing you would never want to say
Speaker 1: to your auntie or your grandfather is like, do you
Speaker 1: think about it when you piss. Of course you don't.
Speaker 1: Maybies don't think about it, But I think it's so
Speaker 1: fascinating what you're saying. You know that the reality that
Speaker 1: repetitive affection or encouragement or certain kinds of speech create
Speaker 1: safety agency awareness in children. And it's such a trip
Speaker 1: to have littles in your life. My partner's kids are
Speaker 1: four and almost three, and to watch what they become
Speaker 1: based on what they watch, the ways they develop, what
Speaker 1: they're conscious of when things kind of hit them. And
Speaker 1: then you see that milestone day where a thing you've
Speaker 1: repeated a thousand times clicks and then they make this leap.
Speaker 1: It's like, I can't believe we were ever that small. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and then you look around and go, holy shit, now
Speaker 1: we're the grown ups in the room.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, I know the development of consciousness.
Speaker 3: Like one of the things that came to me watching
Speaker 3: my kid grow up is that, like, actually, preference is
Speaker 3: a huge part of personality. Do I like the blue
Speaker 3: of the yellow? Do I like this music? Like dancing
Speaker 3: or not dancing? This feel of that food? And actually,
Speaker 3: like a lot of what one might call personality is
Speaker 3: actually preference, and it's and it's fascinating to me to
Speaker 3: see that at six months old, you know, like that
Speaker 3: straight noodle is absolutely unacceptable, and I will if I
Speaker 3: don't have that, you know, And so where did these
Speaker 3: preferences come from? And you know, it goes one of
Speaker 3: my big fascinations, of philosophical fascinations is free will and
Speaker 3: and what goes to that is choice. Why do we
Speaker 3: make the choices we do? And to what extent can
Speaker 3: we change the choices we make?
Speaker 2: And stuff?
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh that's a nice heavy one. That's a conversation
Speaker 1: I love. I'm curious for you. Where do you think
Speaker 1: when you kind of reflect on that stuff? You know,
Speaker 1: the agency, the choice growing up in a basketball family,
Speaker 1: where do you think your agency or desire around performance
Speaker 1: came from. Were you a really bookish kid. Did you
Speaker 1: love to read and then want to see books come
Speaker 1: to life? Or were you watching movies going I'm going
Speaker 1: to do that.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: Again, I don't know a lot of my childhood so
Speaker 3: but but I do get some of a sense that
Speaker 3: I was a bit of performing keep But I also
Speaker 3: come from a family of storytellers. Telling stories is a
Speaker 3: big part of our family, and I come from very
Speaker 3: both my parents are very demonstrative in the way they
Speaker 3: tell sorties.
Speaker 2: So all of that is relatively natural to me.
Speaker 3: But it wasn't always a dream of mine to become
Speaker 3: an actor, Like I was going to do economics and politics.
Speaker 2: So and that's eighteen. So up until that age, it
Speaker 2: never entered my.
Speaker 3: Mind that I would do anything apart from either some
Speaker 3: type of economists, politics, sociology that parent that was my interest,
Speaker 3: or basketball and unfortunately I wasn't skilled or tall enough
Speaker 3: for that one.
Speaker 2: So and so, actually, you know, and it's it's interesting.
Speaker 3: I'm meant, I'm a mentor to some young people, and
Speaker 3: it's interesting this idea of like doing what you're passionate about,
Speaker 3: and of course, like I really liked that thing, but
Speaker 3: it wasn't what I was most passionate about. It was
Speaker 3: what I think I was most uniquely best at, and
Speaker 3: my passion for it grew as.
Speaker 2: I dedicated more and more of my life to it.
Speaker 3: And so so it's interesting because it kind of came
Speaker 3: the other way around to it. I I was I
Speaker 3: had some talent, and then because of that talent, I eventually,
Speaker 3: about six years in, started applying myself and through dedication
Speaker 3: came more passion and passion came dedication in a virtuous circle,
Speaker 3: right right.
Speaker 1: It's like it's like when you learn to till soil,
Speaker 1: the garden is so much more fruitful. Right.
Speaker 3: Well, I know nothing about goding unfortunately, so.
Speaker 1: I don't know a lot about it. But as as
Speaker 1: they do. Now, you know, our devices and our phones
Speaker 1: and everything's always listening. So now that I'm beginning to
Speaker 1: dig a little deeper past the research I did a
Speaker 1: few years ago when I decided I wanted to be
Speaker 1: a beekeeper, and I just wanted to know what would
Speaker 1: please the bees outside. Now I'm trying to learn more
Speaker 1: about how those ecosystems work, and now everything every time
Speaker 1: I open any electronic device, it's like, did you know
Speaker 1: this interesting fact about coastal Rosemary? Would you like to
Speaker 1: learn how to build a vegetable box? And I'm like yes,
Speaker 1: but also this is so creepy.
Speaker 3: Yeah, but you know what I'm what was really mixed
Speaker 3: feeling about these kind of like Bess spoke algorithms, because
Speaker 3: on one side it's creepy, but on the other side, like.
Speaker 2: If you're gonna give me if commercials.
Speaker 3: Are a fact, then don't you I don't want to
Speaker 3: watch a come much about some random thing that's not
Speaker 3: interesting to me, Like, give me a commercial about something
Speaker 3: I'm you know, sometimes I go on someone else's YouTube,
Speaker 3: I'm looking for a video and I'm like.
Speaker 2: What is this trash? Like I'm not interested in that?
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: So I'm actually not I'm not too against it. Obviously
Speaker 3: at a point it can become like intrusive. But yeah,
Speaker 3: if i'm in bees, give me the bee keeping. So wait,
Speaker 3: why did you Is it an environmental thing or you
Speaker 3: just wanted your own.
Speaker 1: Honey, I had always wanted to do it. I think
Speaker 1: it came from environmental passion. And you know, I grew
Speaker 1: up in LA and I spent most of my childhood
Speaker 1: all up and down you know, central California, California coast.
Speaker 1: I love the mountains and learning about how to sort
Speaker 1: of stand up for nature. It was so important to me.
Speaker 1: And then I just sort of knew I had this
Speaker 1: weird thing where I was like, when I'm grown up,
Speaker 1: I'm going to be a beekeeper. And then my realized, shit,
Speaker 1: I'm a grown up, so maybe I should start. And
Speaker 1: so I decided to plant the things I knew the
Speaker 1: bees would love so that I could work with this
Speaker 1: nonprofit in LA that would bring a beehive over. Essentially,
Speaker 1: you can sign up so when they have to get
Speaker 1: a be a swarm out of like a building or
Speaker 1: somebody's backyard or whatever, they'll bring it.
Speaker 3: I'll just throw it in that way. How much space
Speaker 3: do you need? What's the minimum amount of space to have.
Speaker 1: You don't need a ton of space. What you need
Speaker 1: is they have to go more than three miles from
Speaker 1: where they were taken, or they'll go right back. They
Speaker 1: have really intense basically like b GPS is perfect. And
Speaker 1: so the coolest part of it was I planted this
Speaker 1: whole garden. It was my big COVID project. Is stuck
Speaker 1: at home? What am I going to do? And one
Speaker 1: day the guy's helping me finish these like terraces I
Speaker 1: was doing. Run up to the house and they go,
Speaker 1: we have to stop. We have to stop. There's a
Speaker 1: huge beehive in the base of the woodpile. And now
Speaker 1: that we've gotten down there, we see it. We don't
Speaker 1: know how long they've been there. We have to call
Speaker 1: an exterminator. And I was like, I was like, this
Speaker 1: is my field of dreams. I built it and they
Speaker 1: came Wow. So we rescued my own bees. Wow, the
Speaker 1: not to go for No, it's crazy. And what I
Speaker 1: learned is you can only move them up to twenty
Speaker 1: four inches a day, because essentially it's like they think
Speaker 1: they've come home a little drunk and they can't get
Speaker 1: their key in the front door. They're like, wait a second,
Speaker 1: this isn't this my house? Oh yeah, this is my house.
Speaker 1: But if you move them any more than that, they'll
Speaker 1: just start to rebuild the hive right where it was,
Speaker 1: Or if you move them more than three miles, it
Speaker 1: resets them and they'll stay put.
Speaker 2: We can't get back.
Speaker 3: One of my other one of my interests, which I
Speaker 3: wish I was smarter about, is like being intelligence, like
Speaker 3: ads intelligence. I feel like the metrics and the way
Speaker 3: we kind of like conceive of intelligence just isn't appropriate
Speaker 3: for the way bees and ants and but it's just
Speaker 3: clear that they have all the hallmarks of what we think,
Speaker 3: you know, problem solving and normal situations and like the adaptability,
Speaker 3: and it's just I'm just fascinated by it because I
Speaker 3: can't bring my head around to properly conceive of how
Speaker 3: their intelligence collective intelligence works.
Speaker 1: It's truly incredible and by the way, knowing that you
Speaker 1: have a passion for politics, as do I bees are studying.
Speaker 1: Bees will teach you so much about how we should live.
Speaker 1: They work as such a team and as such a unit,
Speaker 1: and their hives are these societies and everybody takes roles.
Speaker 1: And I remember, you know, during the fires, not at
Speaker 1: the top of this year, but probably three or four
Speaker 1: years ago, there was a crazy fire season in LA
Speaker 1: that backed up to summer, so it was like over
Speaker 1: one hundred degrees out and the bees would line up
Speaker 1: on the edge of the hive and flap their wings
Speaker 1: to blow colder air inside to cool the hive and
Speaker 1: keep the queen safe. And they would take turns, almost
Speaker 1: like penguins do in the freezing cold, you know, going
Speaker 1: to the outside of the huddle to keep each other warm.
Speaker 1: And I was like, wow, they really just know how
Speaker 1: to show up for each other emotional.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that is incredible, My goodness cool.
Speaker 1: And I don't know, maybe maybe it really resonates with
Speaker 1: me too, because for us as actors, you know, you're
Speaker 1: just one of the many hundreds of people on a set,
Speaker 1: right I think special magic.
Speaker 2: I'm the queen bee.
Speaker 3: Okay, I kind of got a wake up goal. When
Speaker 3: I did my first short film, which is like over
Speaker 3: a decade ago now, and I did think the actors
Speaker 3: were special in the set.
Speaker 2: I think were consciously or unconsciously. I was just like,
Speaker 2: I'm a very important part of this situation.
Speaker 3: And then I made this short film and it really
Speaker 3: just humbled me because being a director, all the things
Speaker 3: that actors complain about, like being brought in like three
Speaker 3: hours before your the scene starts, and you know, and
Speaker 3: then all the other people on the set, the focus pullar,
Speaker 3: the sound guy, all of these people are.
Speaker 2: As important to me as my actors.
Speaker 3: And yeah, sure my act is super important, but if
Speaker 3: you have to wait around, mis director while we wait
Speaker 3: for you're can wait around. And it just it really
Speaker 3: just kind of like opened my eyes, my little yeah
Speaker 3: yeah selfcized to like, oh, there is a bigger picture
Speaker 3: out here and you are.
Speaker 1: Just one b in the high that's it. It really
Speaker 1: is a hive and it has to function as a system.
Speaker 1: And now a word from our sponsors that I really
Speaker 1: enjoy and I think you will too. I remember not
Speaker 1: necessarily being disillusioned with our job, but on my first show,
Speaker 1: which you know, we thought would go two or three years,
Speaker 1: and then we did nine seasons like when do you
Speaker 1: ever know that's going to happen? In our seventh season,
Speaker 1: I started directing okay, and in the most interesting way,
Speaker 1: it made the whole show, even though we were seven
Speaker 1: years into this place, these characters. It made the whole
Speaker 1: thing feel brand new for me. It made me feel
Speaker 1: so inspired, so lucky to do what we do it.
Speaker 1: It sort of felt like it really expanded my creativity.
Speaker 1: I'm envious that you got to do that so early
Speaker 1: in your career as a director on a short because
Speaker 1: it's just it changes you, I think in the best way.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really interesting.
Speaker 3: I like I'm I think one of the things I
Speaker 3: like about life is diynastic, Like I like trying new things.
Speaker 3: And I found that there's just lots of stuff that
Speaker 3: I'm not good at. You know, I'm not particularly good dancer,
Speaker 3: Like I mean a dancefall and have a good time.
Speaker 3: But if you want to teach me tap, I like,
Speaker 3: I try to learn how to tip it. Just I
Speaker 3: just didn't come intuitively. Directing was very intuitive to me.
Speaker 3: It was like it was this rare experience that you
Speaker 3: get every now in life where you go, oh, my God.
Speaker 2: I really like this. I found the thing I really
Speaker 2: like and I.
Speaker 3: Think passion is really the precursors to talent, and so yeah,
Speaker 3: it was wonderful for me. My first short film. We
Speaker 3: had a budget of fifty dollars. We spent forty dollars
Speaker 3: on pizza you gotta feed people, and ten dollars on
Speaker 3: a stick to hold a microphone that I borrowed. And yeah,
Speaker 3: and it was it was real, real low budget stuff,
Speaker 3: but it was. Yeah, it was a real transcendent experience
Speaker 3: for me.
Speaker 1: That's so cool. I think about early career stuff and
Speaker 1: I read in an article prepping for today, you were
Speaker 1: talking about, you know, being thirty and wanting to stop
Speaker 1: landing these guest roles and go for these bigger parts,
Speaker 1: you know, expanding yourself as an actor. And you told
Speaker 1: the story of like, you know, a hundred auditions and
Speaker 1: no callbacks, and I was like, honey, oh my god.
Speaker 1: It took me right back to my first pilot season,
Speaker 1: probably one hundred auditions, you know, running around La panic,
Speaker 1: like how do you how do you think now having
Speaker 1: the career that you do and having done these amazing
Speaker 1: projects that you've been on and reflecting on that early directing.
Speaker 1: Do you think that those early experiences helped keep you
Speaker 1: focused in a way or do you think you just
Speaker 1: had that sort of young person's determination that I think
Speaker 1: we all had to have to survive to get here.
Speaker 3: I mean, look, I don't know, really I know how
Speaker 3: to answer that. I am a pretty driven person and
Speaker 3: I find it hard to be too idle for too long,
Speaker 3: and so I'm going to put my energies into something.
Speaker 2: And there is a point where I could give up acting.
Speaker 3: Like where I was like, Okay, well it's just not working,
Speaker 3: and I need to be able to be self sufficient
Speaker 3: and you know, I've a big bird, and stolen is
Speaker 3: not working, and.
Speaker 2: So I give it. You know.
Speaker 3: So there is stuff I could have faced which could
Speaker 3: have turned me back, but it would be a pretty
Speaker 3: high mounted and so and also I didn't have.
Speaker 2: For most of my career up to that point. When
Speaker 2: I turned thirty, I would just do anything.
Speaker 3: In the children's theater I did, and I did THEATA
Speaker 3: in old people's homes I did, you know, like and
Speaker 3: so the most important thing for I was doing shorts
Speaker 3: that I was paying to be part of. I was
Speaker 3: doing class. I was still doing acting classes, like I
Speaker 3: was very I was always involved and engaged creatively, and
Speaker 3: I think that helps not become too disillusioned, because if
Speaker 3: you can become completely divorced from your creative outlets, then
Speaker 3: I think that that can feel like a death.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a beautiful way to think about it. What
Speaker 1: was it like auditioning then for The Handmaid's Tale? Because
Speaker 1: now your seven season you know the show is seven
Speaker 1: seasons in, which is so crazy? Yeah, and yeah, how
Speaker 1: did it? Did you know then? But because it was
Speaker 1: an adaptation of the book, like did it already feel
Speaker 1: it like it was going to be a really big deal?
Speaker 1: Was it nerve wracking or or did you have that
Speaker 1: that sort of energy on and go, No, I know
Speaker 1: this is for me.
Speaker 3: Oh I know really, I know when when I can
Speaker 3: do a part like the times I read it and
Speaker 3: be like, I'm going to do my thing on that.
Speaker 3: Now you may not want my thing, but I'm going
Speaker 3: to get to do my thing on this. And but anyway,
Speaker 3: all that to be said, look, you had lots of
Speaker 3: people face us now and you put yourself on tape
Speaker 3: and it's like it's thrown into the ocean and just
Speaker 3: like never hear anything back and you're.
Speaker 1: Like the weirdest.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And so this was just another self tape that I
Speaker 3: was doing. And I had a great actress friend of mine,
Speaker 3: Nikki and kummer Bird, who put me on tape. And
Speaker 3: she's great because she's a person just like make me
Speaker 3: do another take and another take, another thing, evenough I'm
Speaker 3: like I.
Speaker 2: Think we've got it, just do another one and changes.
Speaker 2: So I had that and anyway I sent it out.
Speaker 3: One thing that I did have though, is that read Marana,
Speaker 3: who was the director I'd worked with actually the DP
Speaker 3: on on a little I've done before, and so I
Speaker 3: kind of had reached out to her.
Speaker 2: And I think sometimes lots of those.
Speaker 3: Kind of like cross but you know, they can cross
Speaker 3: pollination that can help something go. But when I was
Speaker 3: offered it, Lizy Moss wasn't who Lizzie Moss is now,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 2: And Hulu wasn't what it is now, I mean if he.
Speaker 3: Past remember, but Hulu won the very first Emmy for
Speaker 3: Best Drama Series. So so with Handmade's Tales, so I
Speaker 3: e before then they were not on the map.
Speaker 2: They were they were nowhere, so far from like feeling like,
Speaker 2: oh this is the one to be honest. When I
Speaker 2: first got offered it, I was like, okay, great, and I.
Speaker 3: Said to my agent, so nothing, nothing else, right, We're
Speaker 3: definitely sure.
Speaker 2: This is great great. I was happy about it. It
Speaker 2: was great source of material.
Speaker 3: I wanted to work with Read again because she's extraordinary,
Speaker 3: but there was no sense of what it would be
Speaker 3: or how long it would go or anything like that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, oh what a trip. I'm such a fan of
Speaker 1: Reads as well. It's cool to hear.
Speaker 2: That you guys work together.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So what is it? What is it like now?
Speaker 1: I mean, you know the show, you're preparing for it
Speaker 1: to come to an end, and obviously the whole dynamic,
Speaker 1: as you said, of the show and the streaming platform
Speaker 1: itself and all of it has exploded and changed. Is
Speaker 1: it bittersweet? You know? I imagine part of you is
Speaker 1: ready for the next thing, for more freedom, But then
Speaker 1: it's also this incredible thing you've all been doing in
Speaker 1: this cultural phenomenon and this reflection on society, and like
Speaker 1: it's big.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know. You know what?
Speaker 3: Because I asked this question, variations of it quite a lot,
Speaker 3: and I guess my intuitions about it seemed to be
Speaker 3: different from what the question implies, which is that I
Speaker 3: don't have much of a sense of it ending, which
Speaker 3: is I mean, number one, my last day on set
Speaker 3: was five months ago, you know or whatever, six months
Speaker 3: like and so, and since then, I've I've worked on
Speaker 3: three other projects and I was working on another you.
Speaker 2: Know, so so so the sense of Okay, what they
Speaker 2: did it end? Well, it kind of ended six months ago.
Speaker 3: But but in a weird way, I don't feel it's
Speaker 3: ending because I feel like what it is for me
Speaker 3: is the experiences I've had with the cast and the crew,
Speaker 3: the experience I've had growing as an artist with the material.
Speaker 2: And so that's what it is. And so that is
Speaker 2: with me, like that glan end.
Speaker 3: And so look the paycheck I got on the last thing, Okay,
Speaker 3: that's gonna I'm gonna have to find a new paycheck.
Speaker 3: And so when I missed the guaranteed that, yeah, I
Speaker 3: can miss that. But that's not what people are talking
Speaker 3: about when it's like a you're gonna miss it and
Speaker 3: and so.
Speaker 2: And for me, I honest I haven't watched most of
Speaker 2: the show.
Speaker 1: And because you've been making it, I've been.
Speaker 2: Making and I and that's my relationship with it.
Speaker 3: My relationship is with the scripts and with the cast
Speaker 3: and the crew and the sets and so so.
Speaker 2: So the thing that I like to think, will I
Speaker 2: miss it? Like this?
Speaker 3: Coolzzy? I mean, I was just texting with Amanda yesterday
Speaker 3: like I'm gonna really miss them, and I'm hopefully we'll
Speaker 3: do other projects together. And sometimes it's two years before
Speaker 3: Handmad's seasons. So anyway, I guess all of us to
Speaker 3: say is that my there is in me personally, there's
Speaker 3: no sense of morning. There's great gratitude.
Speaker 2: We did it. We did it. You know what was itever?
Speaker 2: You know? Okay, great, so it ended well, that's the best.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's true. It's really beautiful. And I think it
Speaker 1: is interesting to think about because it is a streaming show.
Speaker 1: To your point, the end is much longer. It's not
Speaker 1: like you're finishing a season of a crime drama on
Speaker 1: CBS and then three weeks later the finale airs and
Speaker 1: you're still moving out of your apartment and then it's
Speaker 1: over forever. Like you get a much longer tail with
Speaker 1: something like this. It's cool. Yeah, was it a neat
Speaker 1: thing in these latter years, not just working with Lizzie
Speaker 1: you know who you talk about being so exceptional. I
Speaker 1: imagine you built such an intimacy and a rapport as
Speaker 1: you know, castmates, coworkers' friends with her playing your wife.
Speaker 1: But in the end, to circle back to our Queen
Speaker 1: Bee theory, she also started directing. What was that like,
Speaker 1: you know, to get to expand your creative relationship with
Speaker 1: each other while she was in the director's chair.
Speaker 2: Well, when she first started, you know, the sense of
Speaker 2: it is that you just want to support her, You
Speaker 2: want her to win, and there is a real camaraderie
Speaker 2: amongst the cast and crew, like we are here for
Speaker 2: each other, we're here for the material and like, so.
Speaker 3: Lizi's directing, great, how can we support you in this
Speaker 3: times out?
Speaker 2: She didn't need our.
Speaker 3: Support, Cocau. She was just an absolute natural and nailed
Speaker 3: it visually. And I think, you know, with the actors
Speaker 3: and stuff, and what I come came to find is
Speaker 3: that I had some of my best performances with her
Speaker 3: as director because she kind of understood my process as
Speaker 3: an actor. And it's like, I don't know, it's stupid stuff,
Speaker 3: Like very often my best take is after I feel
Speaker 3: like they've directed, has got what they want, you know,
Speaker 3: my people, please I'm just like you, and then you
Speaker 3: tell me okay, well then you could do anything. And
Speaker 3: then and very often it's then when something will catch.
Speaker 3: And so she knows me well enough almost that she's
Speaker 3: almost like quite early on, she kind of pushes me
Speaker 3: to be a bit more better, and so lots of
Speaker 3: little nuanced type things like that where she can help
Speaker 3: people out the best of me.
Speaker 2: It's great work with it.
Speaker 1: I love that, And it's really nice to hear, not
Speaker 1: just hear you, I mean i'm you know, for our
Speaker 1: listener friends out there in the ethers. I get to
Speaker 1: look at you while we're talking as well, and it's
Speaker 1: nice to see the way your face lights up when
Speaker 1: you talk about that creative relationship and the energy on
Speaker 1: set and being seen, especially because you know, as a viewer,
Speaker 1: as a fan, the world is so dystopian and the
Speaker 1: experience that women in this world have with men is
Speaker 1: by and large so terrible. It's sort of gorgeous to
Speaker 1: hear about how nice it is for you guys as
Speaker 1: real people. Because yes, as an actor, your job is
Speaker 1: to service the material. You have to play the shit
Speaker 1: out of somebody, whether it's the lead in a rom
Speaker 1: com or a serial killer, but it can be so
Speaker 1: heavy to I think, wade through material this grave and
Speaker 1: I don't know. As another actor, I'm so touched watching
Speaker 1: you Grinn talking about how great she is and how
Speaker 1: you guys get each other and you speak the same language,
Speaker 1: because you know, a lot of what you have to
Speaker 1: portray for those of us who watch you is so gnarly.
Speaker 1: How do you make space for that? You know? How
Speaker 1: do you Is that sort of surreal? Especially I know
Speaker 1: you can't take it personally, you know it's not you,
Speaker 1: but but also is it weird at moments to be
Speaker 1: aware of, you know, being a man in that in
Speaker 1: that version of the world.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I didn't know.
Speaker 3: It's hard to because I guess when I'm Luke, I'm
Speaker 3: inhabiting his perspective of the world, and when I'm me,
Speaker 3: and it's I sometimes get And also my processes is
Speaker 3: that I when I'm acting, I always speak as like
Speaker 3: I don't ever say that even me just say now
Speaker 3: when I'm Luke, my Nuttings can say I like I
Speaker 3: do this my wife's you know, like that's the So
Speaker 3: it's hard sometimes for me to differentiate.
Speaker 2: So it's like, oh, me and the world of handmaids
Speaker 2: and me.
Speaker 3: Out the world of having I guess look the overall
Speaker 3: and Tom stomachs this Do's answer your question is just
Speaker 3: that I try and stay woke. I try and say
Speaker 3: informed about like what's going on in the world. But
Speaker 3: my energies and focus go to where are the places
Speaker 3: that I have levers of influence? Where can I make
Speaker 3: this this issue a little bit better?
Speaker 2: Where can I contribute here and all the rest.
Speaker 3: I just try not to keep on my shoulders too
Speaker 3: much and so sore. When I'm doing the scene, I'm
Speaker 3: not thinking about, Wow, you know overall what is it regime?
Speaker 3: And and you know the how the don downtrodden and
Speaker 3: how our society is like affected by race and class
Speaker 3: and gender and sex.
Speaker 2: And I'm just like, you know, what is going on
Speaker 2: in this scene right now between me and this person.
Speaker 3: And and for me personally as an actor. You know,
Speaker 3: I played mccutio right, and Macushio gets stabbed in the
Speaker 3: stomach and then dies bleeds out, knowing he's going to
Speaker 3: die young and miss the rest of his life.
Speaker 2: Oh so fun. It's so fun.
Speaker 1: I bet that was gorgeous, So you.
Speaker 3: Know, so it's the same acting in the hand, mad sow.
Speaker 2: I've gotta weep. Your daughter has been taken from you. Oh, oh,
Speaker 2: how tasty? Give me more? Yes, yes, yes, you know
Speaker 2: I'm not going away. Oh my heart, it's broken. Oh
Speaker 2: the fathers who have lost daughters.
Speaker 1: Nah.
Speaker 3: I'm like, my job is like in the moment when
Speaker 3: I'm doing it, you know, I'm met the d you know.
Speaker 3: And so it's hard emotionally, but ultimately as a person,
Speaker 3: I don't go home and have bad dreams about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I always think the balance of that is
Speaker 1: sort of fascinating, because our job is to shut out
Speaker 1: the rest of the world and just be as present
Speaker 1: as possible. As you said in the scene, in the moment,
Speaker 1: every day you got to do the thing, and and
Speaker 1: I think there's something so freeing about that. But it's
Speaker 1: also got to be kind of crazy to look at,
Speaker 1: as you said, to be conscious of what's happening in
Speaker 1: the world. Have you ever had a day where you
Speaker 1: see a news story or some insane thing is going
Speaker 1: on and you're like, are we manifesting the bad guys?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: What what's happening? I would imagine maybe obviously you've got
Speaker 1: to focus when you're on set, but like when you're
Speaker 1: on hiatus and you see what's going on in the world,
Speaker 1: are you just like, uh, oh.
Speaker 2: Boy, you know what?
Speaker 3: Yes, is the simple answer. But I think I take
Speaker 3: the real world so much more seriously than I do
Speaker 3: the art that it's like the the art is like
Speaker 3: I don't know, a low resolution similarly a rhyme of reality.
Speaker 3: And so I'm much more engaged in like reality. And
Speaker 3: so yes, oh, it's interesting that there is a poem
Speaker 3: about what's going on right now. But but if I
Speaker 3: read an article now, I'm not I'm not really thinking
Speaker 3: about handmaids. I'm thinking about oh, oh gosh, my daughter,
Speaker 3: you know, what kind of rights would be available to
Speaker 3: how and and and to be honest, I also I
Speaker 3: try and remind myself that I think it's very very
Speaker 3: easy to become very America centric in terms of like
Speaker 3: what's going on. And you know, I've done quite a
Speaker 3: lot of charity work, and I mean I've not done
Speaker 3: a lot of charity work.
Speaker 2: I take that back.
Speaker 3: I've got a charity where we've done some work, and
Speaker 3: most of my focus has been on women young girls
Speaker 3: in Africa and particularly in Zimbabwe, Tanzania and Nigeria and.
Speaker 2: It's like, so, so.
Speaker 3: When I'm dealing with like the specificities of that, it's
Speaker 3: kind of not connected to you know, you're figuring out, Okay, well,
Speaker 3: how can we help facilitate micro loans for farmers in Zimbabwe?
Speaker 2: Where is a different type.
Speaker 3: Of like you know questions as well, So that's sometimes
Speaker 3: they're not as immediately like oh my god, this is it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and now a word from our wonderful sponsors. You
Speaker 1: reference your background and where you grew up, and you know,
Speaker 1: whether you're working on the African continent or you have
Speaker 1: the English part of your history, or you're working in
Speaker 1: America or you're filming in Canada, it's like there is
Speaker 1: there is such a I think there's a beautiful gift
Speaker 1: about coming from multicultural backgrounds. And I think one of
Speaker 1: the greatest gifts of what we get to do as
Speaker 1: actors is that we get to live everywhere. Everyone becomes
Speaker 1: our neighbor, and you really do get to sort of
Speaker 1: learn so much about people in society, and you know,
Speaker 1: for me, leaning into knowing how my dad was raised
Speaker 1: in Canada, knowing how my mom's family in Italy grew up,
Speaker 1: knowing how like you know, seeing the differences in their
Speaker 1: experience versus my experience growing up in America. It gives
Speaker 1: me a lens on how to remember how big the
Speaker 1: world is. And also then I can't help but pay
Speaker 1: attention when I'm like, oh, look, fascism is rising everywhere.
Speaker 4: But you know, we've had the elections in Australia and
Speaker 4: the elections in Canada so lovely, you know, And so
Speaker 4: I think, you know, I try as much.
Speaker 3: I can get kind of like apocalyptic in my thinking,
Speaker 3: and I do try, and like, yeah, just remember you
Speaker 3: know when I go everything's going to fascism.
Speaker 2: I no, no, no, no, no, no. Look you can always you know.
Speaker 1: Well, And I think service can really help you reprogram
Speaker 1: your brain to always look for the helpers, to always
Speaker 1: look for who's who's doing the.
Speaker 2: Good thing, always looking at the helpers.
Speaker 1: Isn't that the helpers?
Speaker 2: But that's my conference like American show mister Rogers.
Speaker 3: Rogers, we never had mister Rogers, but I played something
Speaker 3: for my son and we were looking for like good TV.
Speaker 2: And I remember this thing about like looking out for
Speaker 2: the help of this kind of thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, mister Rogers he was. He was like kind of gangster,
Speaker 1: this sweet old man who wore his cute cardigans, which,
Speaker 1: by the way, it turned out his mom made for him.
Speaker 1: Oh wow, like just so utterly precious. Was really he
Speaker 1: was kind of a gentle revolutionary. He was very pro equity,
Speaker 1: and he took a lot of leaps and bounds on
Speaker 1: TV that no one else was and he did it
Speaker 1: with that sweet little old man face and voice. And
Speaker 1: as I learn, as I've learned more about him over
Speaker 1: the years, and even his fight for PBS, I'm like, damn,
Speaker 1: I wish I could have bought mister Rogers a beer.
Speaker 1: Probably doesn't even drink beer what I had to buy
Speaker 1: a couple of days.
Speaker 3: Tell me, are you more optimistic or pessimistic about the world, Like,
Speaker 3: let's just give it the next ten years?
Speaker 1: If I am being pragmatic and I have to work
Speaker 1: on that because I people, I think, because I am
Speaker 1: a fighter for justice, people who don't know me well
Speaker 1: assume that I'm always angry about something, and I'm like, no,
Speaker 1: I'm actually wildly optimistic, to the point that it's been
Speaker 1: a bit dangerous. So I try to be very communicative
Speaker 1: about reality so people can know how to organize. Sitting
Speaker 1: in that pragmatism, I think it's going to get a
Speaker 1: lot worse before it gets better, which makes me sad.
Speaker 1: But I also believe that there is that we are
Speaker 1: in a moment of a shift where people really are
Speaker 1: being touched by the reality that there are so many
Speaker 1: more of us than there are of the oligarchs. You know.
Speaker 1: The fact that we've had the you know, here in
Speaker 1: the US, we've had the theft of a trillion dollars
Speaker 1: from the working class to eighteen billionaires in the last
Speaker 1: ten years is pretty terrifying. And I'm afraid for people
Speaker 1: who will suffer in ways that that sort of oligarchy
Speaker 1: class can't even fathom because they've never had to go without,
Speaker 1: they've never had to make certain kinds of choices. And
Speaker 1: I worry about people, but people want to help each other,
Speaker 1: and I think as as we see what's coming, I'm
Speaker 1: really hoping that the opportunity that it felt like we
Speaker 1: kind of squandered when the pandemic hit, and we really
Speaker 1: had a chance to make some great shifts, especially in
Speaker 1: terms of public health and especially in terms of the
Speaker 1: way we show up for each other. We got more isolated, sadly,
Speaker 1: and I think people are realizing the effects of that
Speaker 1: and the radicalization that happened and all of these things.
Speaker 1: And my hope for us, this is where the optimist
Speaker 1: comes out, is I'm like, we're better together people. I
Speaker 1: really do think people are good. I think fear can
Speaker 1: make us cruel, But when you really start to see
Speaker 1: your neighbor, spend time with your neighbor, everything changes. And
Speaker 1: I don't think we're as different as a lot of
Speaker 1: folks would like us to believe. And I really hope
Speaker 1: that what's happening now is kind of lifting this veil
Speaker 1: for a lot of people. I definitely, I definitely feel
Speaker 1: like I'm seeing it in certain ways, and I'm just hoping.
Speaker 1: I'm hoping it doesn't take us the lessons that it
Speaker 1: took one hundred years ago to come back to each
Speaker 1: other because they were brutal and horrible and awful. I'm
Speaker 1: really hoping that we can do better because we know
Speaker 1: more now. But I guess we'll see. How do you feel?
Speaker 3: That's a great answer, much better than anything I'm about
Speaker 3: to say. The sure, Well, how do I feel? In
Speaker 3: terms of do I feel optimistic about the next ten years?
Speaker 1: I don't know if it's optimistic or pessimistic, Just how
Speaker 1: do you feel and maybe where do you want to live?
Speaker 2: I know that's a good question.
Speaker 3: I I feel, like my senses that we live in
Speaker 3: very revolutionary times and the rate of change and progress
Speaker 3: and potential for damage that there's there's huge variability when
Speaker 3: I kind of try and assess like the probability distribution
Speaker 3: of the future, and so it's hard to say, really.
Speaker 3: I mean, in particular, I think, you know, the administration
Speaker 3: that we have is is like strangely, you know, I
Speaker 3: don't minicine in a necessarily good way, but not any
Speaker 3: way revolutionary in the terms of it's just changing really
Speaker 3: hard and fast. A lot of a lot of things
Speaker 3: that have been like kind of set in place, and
Speaker 3: how much damage or even potential progress in various areas
Speaker 3: is so unknown, and it feels like that and then
Speaker 3: we've got a long, you know, runway for that to
Speaker 3: kind of all play out. And then on the other hand,
Speaker 3: and that there's like AI, which I think, you know,
Speaker 3: I think has the danger of being under hyped. I
Speaker 3: think the ways in which AI may change our societies
Speaker 3: over the next decade are going to be quite profound,
Speaker 3: and so so I'm uncertain really.
Speaker 2: Which.
Speaker 1: Me too, Me too, And it's there's things that make
Speaker 1: me nervous, you know, in the in the sort of
Speaker 1: theme of the show of yours we've been talking about
Speaker 1: most I see the way AI tools are being used
Speaker 1: at really alarming rates to abuse women and girls. And
Speaker 1: I am working with some really brilliant people who are
Speaker 1: ringing the alarm bell about what serialized violence against women
Speaker 1: and girls means as a tipping point for society.
Speaker 2: Can you tell me more about how AI has been
Speaker 2: used to yes.
Speaker 1: So, deep fake pornography, for example, is when you consider
Speaker 1: not just how we need to think about it, but
Speaker 1: actually what we understand in terms of the data of
Speaker 1: what it does to victims. It is the digital sex
Speaker 1: trafficking and the digital rape of women and girls. It
Speaker 1: is it is allowing for content that creates the same
Speaker 1: kind of PTSD as physical assault. And it is being
Speaker 1: weaponized against famous women, non famous women, neighbors, teenage girls,
Speaker 1: and children. And over ninety eight percent of the victims
Speaker 1: of this kind of abuse are female. And so when
Speaker 1: you think about, you know, sexual assault being used as
Speaker 1: a weapon of war, which obviously is a war crime,
Speaker 1: but what it indicates for society, what it indicates about
Speaker 1: the level of brutality with which you see your neighbor.
Speaker 1: It's a tipping point for the kind of violent conflict
Speaker 1: that should alarm all of us. And the way that
Speaker 1: it is sort of shrugged off because it's quote digital
Speaker 1: is also alarming because the human brain cannot tell the
Speaker 1: difference between seeing a videotape of an assault and an
Speaker 1: AI assault. So it is creating desensitization, It is creating memory.
Speaker 1: When it is imported into virtual reality, it creates the
Speaker 1: illusion of an experience. So what does that then do
Speaker 1: to women and girls in the world who can be
Speaker 1: approached on the street by men who think they've had
Speaker 1: sex with them against their will. You know, it has
Speaker 1: really alarming ramifications, and unfortunately, companies like Meta and Google
Speaker 1: and every tech company that we all use make a
Speaker 1: fortune surfacing this content. And we've seen increases like in
Speaker 1: the thousands of percent. So two years ago there were
Speaker 1: around half a million views on this kind of content
Speaker 1: and today we're seeing over four billion views a year.
Speaker 1: So to see the explosion of it and to know
Speaker 1: that it is currently something that we are not legislating
Speaker 1: fast enough against is terrifying because not only is it
Speaker 1: creating a more unsafe society for fifty one percent of
Speaker 1: the population. But the amount of energy it takes to
Speaker 1: assault women this way, like what it's going to do
Speaker 1: to the planet is really scary. Now, on the other side,
Speaker 1: we see incredible opportunities for AI and it's actually why
Speaker 1: my best friend and business partner we advocate. We both
Speaker 1: invest in what we believe to be good AI, and
Speaker 1: we are literally advocating in Washington and in front of
Speaker 1: Congress for protections and laws to be made about this
Speaker 1: bad side of it. We produced a documentary about it.
Speaker 1: It's called Another Body. You should watch it.
Speaker 2: It's fabulous.
Speaker 1: But you know, we invested in this amazing woman. You know,
Speaker 1: she is a black woman from Detroit who realized from
Speaker 1: an engineering background that started an automotive. She went down
Speaker 1: this incredible rabbit hole of what AI can do. And
Speaker 1: the best way I can kind of explain it is
Speaker 1: if you think about a disease that medicine can't figure
Speaker 1: out how to treat, they can't drug it, so people
Speaker 1: are dying. It's basically like the disease is locked, right,
Speaker 1: It's like a padlock and they're trying so hard to
Speaker 1: find the key. But it can cost billions of dollars
Speaker 1: and fifteen years of clinical research to find a key
Speaker 1: that might fit the lock. She has developed a way
Speaker 1: to essentially use AI to if you will. This is
Speaker 1: a metaphor obviously, but imagine being able to three D
Speaker 1: model the lock, so you can three D model the
Speaker 1: shape of the key. So she is cutting down time
Speaker 1: to create drugs that can save people's lives for previously
Speaker 1: quote undruggable diseases with this technology. And you see AI
Speaker 1: catching breast cancer five years before a radiologist catches it,
Speaker 1: and all of these other wonderful things. So what worries
Speaker 1: me about that technology is kind of what worries me
Speaker 1: about society at large. It's like, if we're in the
Speaker 1: twenty twenties and you compare it to the world in
Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties, are we going to go the terrible
Speaker 1: route of the nineteen thirties or are we going to
Speaker 1: have a twenty thirty kind of revolution that sees community
Speaker 1: and access and us stand up for each other or not?
Speaker 1: And so I don't really know, but I'm hoping that
Speaker 1: we can be smart about it, and I hope that
Speaker 1: you know, AI can go solve diseases and we can
Speaker 1: still make art because people need art so badly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: sorry to kind of scramble your your brain.
Speaker 2: Not at all.
Speaker 3: I think about AI more than I think about anything
Speaker 3: really really.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I spend more to send you something.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I definitely do.
Speaker 3: I Yeah, I spend more time like trying to study
Speaker 3: AI and and it's implications more than anything else I studied,
Speaker 3: to be honest. So so everything I guess all you're saying,
Speaker 3: and I'm just like, you know, taking in and you know, Crocess,
Speaker 3: I don't know, there are so many things I think
Speaker 3: about everything you said, but I just don't know where
Speaker 3: it starts. I'm just like, yeah, yes, thank you for that.
Speaker 3: But you know, extraordinary the work that you're doing. And
Speaker 3: and yeah, just like you said, we're trying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and now a word from our sponsors. It's that
Speaker 1: sort of same feeling I was talking about earlier about
Speaker 1: the bees, where I was like, when I grow up?
Speaker 1: And then I was like, shit, I think I'm a
Speaker 1: grown up. You know, my my best friend and I
Speaker 1: had this experience five years ago. We kind of looked
Speaker 1: around and went, oh are we Oh God, were the
Speaker 1: adults in the room. Now, Oh, we have to start.
Speaker 1: We can't just volunteer for other people. Right now, there's
Speaker 1: people who they want to volunteer for us. Oh god,
Speaker 1: So you know, we're definitely trying. But yeah, I think
Speaker 1: in my in my most ideal outcome scenario, that technology
Speaker 1: would make more space for the rest of us to
Speaker 1: have more reasonable hours and also make more art.
Speaker 3: I know, I really hope for this version is kind
Speaker 3: of like UBI And you know, but over the last
Speaker 3: thirty years, all the efficiency that we've managed to create
Speaker 3: in automation and with the Internet and all of those things,
Speaker 3: that all that efficiency has just gone to the oligarchs.
Speaker 3: And they were e columnists who would predict that that
Speaker 3: efficiency would go to labor and therefore labor would become
Speaker 3: shortened and we would have more spare time, well time
Speaker 3: with our family, and and it's just not the way
Speaker 3: it's gone. And it makes me kind of like a
Speaker 3: little pessimistic.
Speaker 1: But ot, don't you know that they couldn't give it
Speaker 1: to us because the oligarchs needed more yachts.
Speaker 2: This is I mean, this is the thing, because a.
Speaker 1: Fleet of yachts isn't enough. You need you need a
Speaker 1: whole shipping yard apparently.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and if yours don't become enough, then you need
Speaker 3: to build spaceships and so.
Speaker 2: Oh my god, yeah, I mean we really do.
Speaker 3: But like what what you said, you know, us coming together,
Speaker 3: us finding our union, our community, and ultimately voting in representation.
Speaker 3: That will because the market is great, Like you know,
Speaker 3: the market is great at a bunch of stuff. It's
Speaker 3: just not it's just it's just not great as some
Speaker 3: things that are really important. And if we don't have
Speaker 3: strong government that kind of comes and steps in to
Speaker 3: take over from the girl market, or at least affect
Speaker 3: the market in ways that are going to protect labor,
Speaker 3: protect people, protect working people, protect people who are from
Speaker 3: disadvantaged backgrounds, and with the mercy of the builders.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, and that's the thing. All of the progress, however, fraud,
Speaker 1: All of the progress that particularly are has been made
Speaker 1: in our living generation. You know, the forward strides terrify
Speaker 1: people who don't desire more balanced power. But I think
Speaker 1: the more of us who can understand that if you
Speaker 1: have more power, so do I. If I have more power,
Speaker 1: so do you. Like, we hopefully can affect change by
Speaker 1: I don't know, by being willing to you know, to
Speaker 1: see each other, and I guess by being willing to
Speaker 1: trust the economists. It wasn't lost on me that a
Speaker 1: few weeks ago, you know, when she spoke, I think
Speaker 1: it was in San Francisco. Kamala was like, oh, you
Speaker 1: mean this plan that those nineteen Nobel economists said would
Speaker 1: trash the economy? And mine was great, you mean this
Speaker 1: plan is trashing the economy. I'm not going to say
Speaker 1: I told you so. I needed I did, I did,
Speaker 1: I did need. Just like a moment of humor for her, Well.
Speaker 3: What's your I mean, I'm just curious what what I
Speaker 3: Please don't ask this question to be back because I
Speaker 3: don't know. But what what's your assessment of why the
Speaker 3: election went the way it did? Like, well, why do
Speaker 3: you think you know, in November last year, like more
Speaker 3: people didn't make the choices that look, you know too calmly,
Speaker 3: seems so obvious.
Speaker 2: What what? What? What? What? What do you think number one?
Speaker 2: Number two is there?
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of algorithmic influence there because
Speaker 1: when when you start to look at what anger porn,
Speaker 1: essentially people were being fed depending on their algorithm. You know,
Speaker 1: she was accused of being blue in one person's algorithm
Speaker 1: and accused of being read in another. Right, and the
Speaker 1: and the messaging was completely effective in both of those algorithms.
Speaker 1: I also think, I hate to say it that the
Speaker 1: world hates women in power.
Speaker 2: They they just do the world or America.
Speaker 1: I mean America certainly, but a lot of the world,
Speaker 1: I think as well. Unfortunately, you know, it's it's a
Speaker 1: confluence of so many issues, down to the uplift and
Speaker 1: new popularity of tradwives. Like all of it is advertising.
Speaker 1: And unfortunately, when you when you look at the way
Speaker 1: they essentially advertised against progress and against her and against labor.
Speaker 1: Let's be clear, it worked, and then it was compounded
Speaker 1: by and I think really made worse by the fact
Speaker 1: that you know, we have a now president, a second
Speaker 1: term president, who is paraphrasing Adolf Hitler to drum up
Speaker 1: terror and anger and anti immigrant sentiment. And you know,
Speaker 1: people keep being like, stop making those comparisons. I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: then stop quoting the fucking guy. Like we won't say
Speaker 1: that you're using his words if you don't use them,
Speaker 1: but you're using them, and so is half your staff.
Speaker 1: So it's like that stuff is really effective. Unfortunately, and
Speaker 1: when you don't have policy to run on, you have
Speaker 1: to run on fear loyalty. You have to create a
Speaker 1: cult when you have nothing to defend, and he's done it,
Speaker 1: and I think it's really unfortunate. And I think the
Speaker 1: fact that the man who bought the election for him
Speaker 1: for two hundred and fifty six million dollars controls the
Speaker 1: largest sphere of influence and could algorithmically program three hundred
Speaker 1: and something million people every day. You know, he's turned
Speaker 1: around and he's made himself what eight billion dollars so far,
Speaker 1: if not more. It's like it's all just a grift,
Speaker 1: the cryptocurrency, and the Saudi's buying two billion of it,
Speaker 1: and you know oligarchs from around the world doing they're
Speaker 1: literally buying America. And I think every one who realized
Speaker 1: they got sold outrage porn right now is like uh
Speaker 1: oh uh oh. But the scary thing is, and we
Speaker 1: talked about this a lot in his first election. When
Speaker 1: you open Pandora's box, you don't really get to close
Speaker 1: the lid. When you create a cult when people buy
Speaker 1: into QAnon, and the guy who started it is like,
Speaker 1: I didn't think anyone would take me seriously. This was
Speaker 1: like fan fiction on the dark web, Like, well, people
Speaker 1: are trying to kill each other over your fan fiction. Now,
Speaker 1: so again it harkens back to the way I feel
Speaker 1: about AI. It's like, we better get some regulation on
Speaker 1: some of this stuff before it's too late. I'm excited.
Speaker 1: That is it in Sweden or Switzerland? Maybe neither. Now,
Speaker 1: of course I can't remember. I'm gonna have to look
Speaker 1: it up afterwards. Somewhere in Europe is proposing a bill
Speaker 1: to make it illegal for politicians to lie, and that
Speaker 1: they will get fined every time they lie to the public. Like, yes, yes,
Speaker 1: that should that should be it, because if I hear
Speaker 1: one more person say, oh, Ben Shapiro doesn't believe half
Speaker 1: the ship he says on his show or on Fox,
Speaker 1: but it's how he gets the clicks, all right, I'm like,
Speaker 1: are the clicks really that worth it to you?
Speaker 2: Bro? I don't think it's whales apparently, quick Google search.
Speaker 2: That's Welsh.
Speaker 1: Here we go, the Welsh. The Welsh.
Speaker 3: Now now look, I look, everything you're saying to me
Speaker 3: makes absolute sense.
Speaker 2: Absolutely.
Speaker 3: I think sometimes when I look at the world, I'm
Speaker 3: always like, Okay, that's what those people, my antagonists are doing.
Speaker 2: There is well, that's what the obstacles are doing. Where
Speaker 2: is what do I need to do different?
Speaker 3: What they're going back to the sphere of influence, Like
Speaker 3: one of the things that I can do, do you
Speaker 3: retrospectively look back and go, hey, we played it perfectly
Speaker 3: that we were just what what?
Speaker 2: What do you think where? If you have you seen
Speaker 2: Ezra Klein's new new book on the.
Speaker 1: Bund Yes, I ordered it.
Speaker 2: It's really really worth I found that.
Speaker 3: I found it really compelling listening to him to talk about,
Speaker 3: you know, this new vision of you know, the democratic
Speaker 3: leaning democratic vision for abundance for America and anyway, I'm
Speaker 3: just curious what I want you if your money takes on, Like,
Speaker 3: what do you think our holes were?
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot. I think at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, it's tough to I think it was
Speaker 1: really tough for people to understand, and it started in
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. I think people don't understand how influential these
Speaker 1: non traditional channels are now. I don't think we have
Speaker 1: been cultivating spheres right. You know, the Mano sphere is
Speaker 1: funded by the right, by Russia, by all the Stark money.
Speaker 1: We haven't cultivated spheres that are based in reality. We don't.
Speaker 1: We haven't fought back against Mitch McConnell's forty year plan
Speaker 1: to defund American education. So do we really want to
Speaker 1: judge people who can't necessarily understand a complex economic proposal
Speaker 1: from someone qualified to hold the office of president when
Speaker 1: folks are just trying to figure out how to pay
Speaker 1: their electric bill and feed their kids. Like, we have
Speaker 1: to demystify policy a bit. I think we have to
Speaker 1: talk to people where they are. And I think what
Speaker 1: we have to do a better job of is fight
Speaker 1: back against this insane idea that because we defend labor
Speaker 1: and we defend building a prosperous middle class and a
Speaker 1: well taken care of like fuck a living wage. I
Speaker 1: want people to make a thriving wage, a well taken
Speaker 1: care of working class. That doesn't mean we want you
Speaker 1: to stay there. But there has been all this research
Speaker 1: that I've read in the last few months about how
Speaker 1: folks who don't fall into these upper classes in this
Speaker 1: country believe that the Democrats want them to stay where
Speaker 1: they are, That we don't believe in class mobility, that
Speaker 1: somehow saying you shouldn't you shouldn't be stuck making you know,
Speaker 1: forty six thousand dollars a year in a factory job,
Speaker 1: why not double? They're like, how fucking dare you think
Speaker 1: I'm not worth more than ninety thousand dollars a year?
Speaker 1: And it's like nobody said that. By the way, I
Speaker 1: don't care. Launch a company, win the power ball, whatever,
Speaker 1: Go be the most, Go become the richest person. You know,
Speaker 1: I would love that for you. I would love that
Speaker 1: for me, by the way. But I'm not saying you
Speaker 1: don't deserve more. I'm saying I think you deserve more
Speaker 1: than what you have, so that you actually have the
Speaker 1: space to continue to work up from there. But there
Speaker 1: is this fallacy in public opinion that they think that
Speaker 1: democrats don't believe people deserve wealth, And it's like, that's
Speaker 1: not it. I just don't think people deserve to be
Speaker 1: oligarchs Like Elon Musk didn't make you know whatever, close
Speaker 1: to a trillion dollars by doing anything. He's made it
Speaker 1: by stealing from everyone and underpaying his employees and grifting
Speaker 1: global governments for contry tracts like I just want you
Speaker 1: guys to have some of his money.
Speaker 3: Actually, yeah, I think the conversation about like, for example,
Speaker 3: like the top rate of tax often kind of when
Speaker 3: people hear oh, you want the top rate of tax
Speaker 3: will be fifty percent, And straight away in one's mind
Speaker 3: it's like, so you want to take fifty percent on
Speaker 3: my money, And it's like it's just understanding, Oh, you know,
Speaker 3: whether it's ten million or whatever, the number is that
Speaker 3: above that, every dollar is taxed that x amount. It's
Speaker 3: just it's intuitively, even for me, like they hear it
Speaker 3: just intuitively because like, oh that's crazy. You don't take
Speaker 3: it enough. I'm struggling playing the bills, but just you
Speaker 3: know that that's.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like I'm telling you, you don't know anyone
Speaker 1: who would get taxed like that either, do I Right,
Speaker 1: we don't know those people, and they'd be fine.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's it's they'll be fine. Yeah, it's it's
Speaker 2: so interesting.
Speaker 3: I mean, I guess it kind of did then, you know,
Speaker 3: I guess that the most season potentially counter argument to
Speaker 3: that is that, okay, well then you risk the flight
Speaker 3: of business, you is, the flight of rich people who
Speaker 3: do pay numerically a disproportionate amount of well, even if
Speaker 3: it's not like proportionately that makes make any sense. But yeah,
Speaker 3: but I mean, obviously there are ways around that. You know,
Speaker 3: we taxing wealth is supposed to taxing income and all
Speaker 3: those kind of things.
Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing. I don't care. If you're wealthy,
Speaker 1: go be wealthy. Good for you. All I'm saying is
Speaker 1: if you have two billion dollars, I think you'd be fine.
Speaker 1: With a billion, you'd be fine, you'd be great. Good
Speaker 1: for you. Great. But you know, when people talk about,
Speaker 1: you know what this country used to be, I'm like,
Speaker 1: you mean, when wealthy people paid US seventy to eighty
Speaker 1: percent tax rate, When all those social services you want
Speaker 1: but you don't want other people to have, everyone could
Speaker 1: have when the wealthy people seventy five percent of their income,
Speaker 1: like some one with a billion dollars, you don't think
Speaker 1: could live on two hundred and fifty million dollars. I'm
Speaker 1: not saying you can't have a jet. I'm not saying
Speaker 1: you can't have three jets. I'm just saying, maybe you
Speaker 1: don't need to be able to afford to buy Boeing
Speaker 1: as a company when kids don't have lunch at school.
Speaker 3: Yeah, call me, call me a radical man, woms and
Speaker 3: maybe you are.
Speaker 1: Maybe I am.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I.
Speaker 3: Wonder and I wonder this about America, And I also
Speaker 3: wonder about England, where I come from, whether or not
Speaker 3: like where you know, like whether or not those value systems.
Speaker 3: It seems to me in the Nordic countries that intuition
Speaker 3: is kind of fundamental. It's in the grounds, like the
Speaker 3: intuition that oh, we're gonna have a net that means
Speaker 3: you cannot go broke because you got sick, Like that's unfathomable.
Speaker 3: But I do wonder whether and this is part of
Speaker 3: the incredible byck to me of this amazing country, which is.
Speaker 2: That on one hat.
Speaker 3: That it can be so capitalistic, so marketed, that you
Speaker 3: can have great innovation, you can have great and on
Speaker 3: the other side you have this incredible poverty. And that's
Speaker 3: ultimately the gamble that the people of the country en
Speaker 3: mass want to take. And it's like, well then am
Speaker 3: I am I just a minority that thinks, hey, why
Speaker 3: don't we scaling back a bit?
Speaker 2: You know?
Speaker 1: Like well, but I think that's it's it's the false
Speaker 1: binary there. I'm not saying, uh, you know, poof, we're socialists.
Speaker 1: We are everybody gets the same income and if you
Speaker 1: have over ten million, you get nothing. I'm not saying that.
Speaker 1: I'm literally saying keep a billion, but maybe not two.
Speaker 2: I know, I know.
Speaker 1: And and so here's what I think is really interesting, right,
Speaker 1: is there's this idea that we're going to take it
Speaker 1: all away and then no one's ever going to be
Speaker 1: able to get rich. And you might not be rich now,
Speaker 1: but you could get rich. And if we give everybody support,
Speaker 1: then you're not rich now, but you'll never get rich.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, okay, so essentially you think you're going
Speaker 1: to win the lottery, which is delusion, but I still plague.
Speaker 1: By the way, it's fun.
Speaker 2: I like it.
Speaker 1: I like my little tickets. I'm like, what if it's
Speaker 1: my week? I don't know. But what's crazy to me
Speaker 1: about this idea is it's like they've poisoned the well.
Speaker 1: And again, I'm not saying we should be a socialist country,
Speaker 1: but what I am saying is it's fucking ironic to
Speaker 1: me that we have socialism for rich people and capitalism
Speaker 1: for poor people in America. Rich people get all the
Speaker 1: socialist benefits. They get the tax breaks, they get the
Speaker 1: income shelters, they get the write offs, they get to
Speaker 1: offshore their shit, they get to write off their private jets,
Speaker 1: but teachers can't write off colored pencils and paper for
Speaker 1: their classrooms. Like it's cuckoo bananas to me, and so
Speaker 1: for me, I'm like, look, be as capitalist as you,
Speaker 1: but also just pay your taxes. I would much rather
Speaker 1: Elon Musk pays taxes than teachers have to figure out
Speaker 1: how many power bars they can afford to buy because
Speaker 1: half their kids aren't getting enough calories during the day.
Speaker 1: Like I just I don't feel bad for the guy.
Speaker 1: And again, I don't think we should take all his
Speaker 1: money away. I'm just saying like, at a certain point,
Speaker 1: you don't even you're not even going to miss it,
Speaker 1: like a wealth tax, you're not even gonna miss it.
Speaker 3: Bro, Yeah, he wouldn't even know God, And I mean
Speaker 3: I guess to that extent, it's almost just like, oh,
Speaker 3: can we just have it fair?
Speaker 2: Can we have equal like you said, like we yeah.
Speaker 2: So you know, the average person.
Speaker 3: On a homeowner, a mid person in the middle class
Speaker 3: has to pay tax on what is their biggest source
Speaker 3: of wealth, and most of them is the equity in
Speaker 3: their home. We you know, you pay one percent or
Speaker 3: whatever your state, you pay wealth on that. But people
Speaker 3: don't pay wealth on the shares that they hold. And
Speaker 3: this is mainly held by the billionaires, and so it's just.
Speaker 2: Like, well, so we figured there is. It's not socialism.
Speaker 3: It's not crazy crushing people when you're taking the wealth
Speaker 3: of the middle class, but it is when you take
Speaker 3: the ball. And so you know, even I guess one
Speaker 3: way Berne is just like, can we just have it
Speaker 3: be this?
Speaker 2: Can we be the same the same? Can the school
Speaker 2: teacher get the same as elon?
Speaker 1: Just proportional tax would be so great. So it's just
Speaker 1: the same. It's not so hard. And now a word
Speaker 1: from our sponsors who make this show possible. It's actually
Speaker 1: it's so funny to me because it makes me think
Speaker 1: I love diving into this stuff with you. I'm like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, we need a meal and a bottle
Speaker 1: of wine with all of our friends cleared. But you know,
Speaker 1: I also realize we're overtime, but so I have to
Speaker 1: pay you two more compliments.
Speaker 2: But we have time for compliments please.
Speaker 1: It really makes me think about when you you played
Speaker 1: Barack Obama in the first lady, because I'm like, oh
Speaker 1: my god, I yeah, you just you have such a
Speaker 1: wonderful political mind and it's so much fun I think too,
Speaker 1: to dig into these things. And ask questions and debate
Speaker 1: and to do so hopefully, you know, in the spirit
Speaker 1: of taking care of people. Was it surreal to play
Speaker 1: the president?
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, now that was super serric.
Speaker 1: Did you get to talk to him?
Speaker 2: No? I didn't. I tried, well we didn't. All the
Speaker 2: Biola did get to.
Speaker 3: Queen Byo that should say it did get to speak
Speaker 3: to Michelle Little because they'd had a previous relationship. But
Speaker 3: it was crazy and they have in that Atlanta is like,
Speaker 3: you know, fake White House, you know, and so yeah,
Speaker 3: I'm getting out of the limo and this fake press.
Speaker 3: It was super super surreal. I'm terrifying, scary and thrilling
Speaker 3: and yeah, so.
Speaker 1: Yeah, wow, that's so cool. I also unrelated, I mean
Speaker 1: to that show, not to any of this, because it's you.
Speaker 1: I loved Presumed Innocence so much. I loved it, and
Speaker 1: you were so good and you and Peter Sarsguard were
Speaker 1: just so good and I I had this moment where
Speaker 1: I was like, God, I haven't enjoyed disliking someone in
Speaker 1: a show like this in a long time. The tension
Speaker 1: was so compelling and the motivation even though you were
Speaker 1: supposed to be the foil, right the motivation, and I
Speaker 1: could just read not exactly what you were thinking, obviously,
Speaker 1: but I could watch your thoughts while you were on
Speaker 1: screen and see the way you detested this person and
Speaker 1: then made us the audience second guess is he the
Speaker 1: hero or is he the villain?
Speaker 2: Is this man?
Speaker 1: Correct? Like, oh my god, the cat and Mouse of
Speaker 1: you guys was so much fun. Hats off to you.
Speaker 1: I loved it so much.
Speaker 2: Thanks. So I really enjoyed doing it. I mean it was.
Speaker 2: It's funny because one of the things I did was funny.
Speaker 3: I ever studied politicians, and because they did so often
Speaker 3: this two faced thing.
Speaker 2: Well, on the one side, you're like, oh, yeah, what
Speaker 2: you're saying I agree with.
Speaker 3: On the other hand, you're like, I do not trust you,
Speaker 3: and and and so I was just like.
Speaker 2: Saying, what is this thing? Anyway?
Speaker 3: So I started working on it, and I started working
Speaker 3: on the voice, and you know about like you know
Speaker 3: how annoying and kind of like grating some people's voices. Well, anyway,
Speaker 3: I remember, I don't think they his production really knew
Speaker 3: what I was going to do with the part, or
Speaker 3: like like it was going to be that kind of
Speaker 3: like hateable likeable, hateable character. And I remember I did
Speaker 3: the first scene and I came off and I said, look,
Speaker 3: do you.
Speaker 2: Mind if I watched a little playback? And I watched
Speaker 2: it and I went, oh, yeah, he's hateable.
Speaker 3: And the producer turned to me like, oh no, no,
Speaker 3: I mean he's not hateable, he's you know, we don't
Speaker 3: want him hit.
Speaker 2: And I was just like, no, one, this is gonna
Speaker 2: be fun.
Speaker 1: Like, no, it's nice for me. It's this is what
Speaker 1: I wanted as an actor.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3: So much comes from Peter because Peter is just this
Speaker 3: extraordinary actor to play with, and you know.
Speaker 1: It's amazing.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's so you just he's so unpredictable, he's
Speaker 3: so up and I think I work well on the
Speaker 3: some level of chaos.
Speaker 1: Oh I love that. Well, what's what's next for you?
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously, you know Handmaid's Tales coming out, you're
Speaker 1: all doing the press and the things. But as you said,
Speaker 1: there was over months and months ago for you as
Speaker 1: an actor, so you're onto the next. Are you working
Speaker 1: on something now? Have you just wrapped something? Can you
Speaker 1: tell us even?
Speaker 2: Oh?
Speaker 3: Yeah, there there are a couple of little you know,
Speaker 3: don't want to call them pair projects. Where you know,
Speaker 3: friends of mine who asked me to do a little
Speaker 3: bit for them. So there are a couple of things
Speaker 3: like that that's coming out. But the main project I'm
Speaker 3: working on now is called The Miniature Wife, which is
Speaker 3: this bizarreo comedy kind of surreal comedy.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 3: And I'm playing like the weirdest character I've ever played
Speaker 3: in my life. Is he is so out there. There
Speaker 3: are many a day I come off going, well.
Speaker 2: That was insane.
Speaker 3: So anyway, so that's so for Peacock and then writing
Speaker 3: and so you know, I'm I'm writing. I love developing
Speaker 3: and trying to do stuff like that with my brother
Speaker 3: and so that those are those amazings that keep me
Speaker 3: off the streets as well as my kids.
Speaker 1: Oh it's fabulous. That's what I want, I think, you know,
Speaker 1: referencing our earlier sort of segue. Things feel heavy. I
Speaker 1: want to go to work and laugh. I want to
Speaker 1: go to work and be stupid and funny and weird,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I can't. I don't want. I need
Speaker 1: a break from the heavy levity and absolutely awkward humor.
Speaker 1: Feel like such a respite. I love that you're doing
Speaker 1: that right now.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, well that all that has come in to
Speaker 2: screen the year.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well good and and you you and your brother,
Speaker 1: you have a production company together, he has a production
Speaker 1: to do it together.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so he's got he's got his production company, and
Speaker 3: then I have like a label under his production company
Speaker 3: there or all this stuff that we did again.
Speaker 2: I just love working with him.
Speaker 3: He's kind of like what I was thinking about Lizzie before,
Speaker 3: is that he's someone who just knows.
Speaker 2: How my brain work and gets me writing.
Speaker 3: And funnily enough, I just before it was two weeks
Speaker 3: before Christmas and we were gonna do Christmas in Virginia.
Speaker 3: We have some family out there, and he was gonna
Speaker 3: come join me. And I was like, dude, you have
Speaker 3: an idea for this movie. And he was like, oh, great, great, lovely.
Speaker 3: Why didn't you write something down? I was like, no, no, no,
Speaker 3: I want to shoot a proof of concept and so
Speaker 3: let's shoot it over Christmas. We'll have Christmas Day and
Speaker 3: then we'll shoot for two days after that. And he
Speaker 3: was like, well, we don't have a cast, and I
Speaker 3: was like, is your daughter coming? Okay, great, so that's
Speaker 3: one I'll ask my best friend to come. And so
Speaker 3: he was so he was like, oh, are you serious.
Speaker 2: But he's so.
Speaker 3: Game that we went, we went and did it and
Speaker 3: we shot you know, this c crazy short over two
Speaker 3: days after Christmas anyway, So that's my my brother's mentality
Speaker 3: is just like how we we did this TV shirt together.
Speaker 2: Called Max m a xxx check it.
Speaker 3: Out on Hulu's call We're wild probably, and we got
Speaker 3: all these like we've got the Backstreet Boys in it,
Speaker 3: we got we got a.
Speaker 2: Bunch of Larry King did a little cameo in it.
Speaker 3: And that is pay because he's got the attitude of like,
Speaker 3: let's just got to Larry King and ask him, Hey.
Speaker 2: Larry, would you just give our stuff five?
Speaker 3: It wasn't going to his agents when we did the
Speaker 3: Backstreet Boys, weren't talking to people's managers. We were literally like, yeah,
Speaker 3: will you come to this? And you know, with Kevin
Speaker 3: for the Backstreet Boys, we were like come on, well
Speaker 3: he was like, well, I can't do right now.
Speaker 2: You know, I'm going home. We were like, where'd you live?
Speaker 2: Why don't we come to your house?
Speaker 3: And so he let us come to his house and
Speaker 3: then we gave him a bottle and he smashes out
Speaker 3: of my head.
Speaker 2: You know, it's a working with.
Speaker 3: LOUTI is just like it's a whirlwind, and like I said,
Speaker 3: I'm pretty well in some cares. Well.
Speaker 1: I love that you guys jump in and just make
Speaker 1: it happen, because I think we need permission to do that,
Speaker 1: especially in this business where it's like you've got a
Speaker 1: call so and so and you're like what You're like,
Speaker 1: don't you know that we're all just like a bunch
Speaker 1: of circus performers.
Speaker 2: What are you doing?
Speaker 1: I also think it's so cool that you guys have
Speaker 1: like such a special mandate because knowing you know, as
Speaker 1: again as I was prepping, you know, reading up on
Speaker 1: how you very intentionally hire black department heads from makeup
Speaker 1: to locations to producing to writing. It's like to expand
Speaker 1: our world not just on camera but behind it, to
Speaker 1: make sure people get to see themselves, to make sure
Speaker 1: their experiences are represented. Like the whole thing is so
Speaker 1: important and it's I don't know. I love that you're
Speaker 1: like chasing Larry King down and that you're also making
Speaker 1: shit happen for your whole crew. It's very very awesome.
Speaker 2: Thanks a lot.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, just to say about that just real
Speaker 3: quick though, because it's interesting because like the I and
Speaker 3: all that is in the news our. I mean, I
Speaker 3: can't speak specifically for Luty, but for me, like when
Speaker 3: I was making my show.
Speaker 2: I just wanted to make sure we interviewed the black
Speaker 2: you know, ahead of costume we are.
Speaker 3: That's that they got a fair chance, that when we
Speaker 3: interviewed actors, that we were active interviewing some actors with
Speaker 3: some disabilities, because I think so often what happens is
Speaker 3: like these talented people aren't getting in the room. So
Speaker 3: it's not about giving someone who's not talent the job.
Speaker 3: It's kind of like what you were saying before, can
Speaker 3: we make it fair because you olligart to going, oh yeah,
Speaker 3: my nephew has as just graduated, but you give him
Speaker 3: give him a shot at something. So you have your
Speaker 3: pipelines of getting people in.
Speaker 2: Can we just make it fast.
Speaker 3: This person who doesn't have some connection in the industry
Speaker 3: also gets to be interviewed. And through that process we
Speaker 3: met some amazing you know, men and females and people
Speaker 3: with disability and all sorts that just were extraordinary.
Speaker 2: But just we're never given the chance to shine.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think it's really cool. To your point, all
Speaker 1: you're doing is expanding you know, you're expanding the pool
Speaker 1: exactly and it's wonderful. I'm going to ask you my
Speaker 1: last question. Okay, obviously you have a thousand irons in
Speaker 1: the fire right now, and as you mentioned, your dad,
Speaker 1: and you know, your family is all over the place
Speaker 1: and it's it's so many spinning plates, but you love
Speaker 1: the chaos. I think all of us kiss kids do.
Speaker 1: What whether it's personal or professional, or maybe it's a
Speaker 1: mix of both, what feels like you're work in progress
Speaker 1: when you look out at the year ahead?
Speaker 3: Well, now, sorry, break it amplimented. What do you mean
Speaker 3: with my work in progress?
Speaker 1: Just like I like to know what feels like something
Speaker 1: that guests are noodling on or working on, whether you
Speaker 1: know somebody recently shared some really deep shit about what
Speaker 1: they're going through in therapy. You know, someone was like,
Speaker 1: I'm going to get this movie made this year. You know,
Speaker 1: we've got friends trying to write novels. It's like, I
Speaker 1: guess I just always wonder when people are smart and
Speaker 1: creative and also have families and are doing the thing
Speaker 1: we're all trying to do, which is make it all happen. Like, what,
Speaker 1: what's that central thing that you feel like you're working
Speaker 1: on and tinkering.
Speaker 3: And the thing that I'm thinking about most today and
Speaker 3: and a lot is and say that again too emotional,
Speaker 3: which is which is basically just being a great father
Speaker 3: like and and trying to figure out how do I
Speaker 3: give the best lift off to these incredible creatures that
Speaker 3: I for now I am looking after because hopefully if
Speaker 3: I do a good job to become adults and be
Speaker 3: free in the world and and managing that with the
Speaker 3: demands of all the things that we all know, you know,
Speaker 3: like paying the bills and doing your own art and
Speaker 3: having your own life and healthy indeed, all the things
Speaker 3: that we're supposed to be doing.
Speaker 2: But you know, they're so vulnerable.
Speaker 3: It's complicated, you know, how best to water these gardens and.
Speaker 2: So you know, being patient, I think patients.
Speaker 3: One of the things I struggle with, you know. And yeah,
Speaker 3: there's no rushing that process. You just have to go
Speaker 3: through the middle.
Speaker 1: Yeah, beautiful. It's a pretty interesting thing, you know, when
Speaker 1: you talk about their ages, I think about how close
Speaker 1: you know, the kids in my life are. When you
Speaker 1: love to communicate and you love complexity and a deep
Speaker 1: conversation to figure out how to communicate really well, with
Speaker 1: a tiny little brain that is developing and learning but
Speaker 1: doesn't have all the language yet. It's it's like a
Speaker 1: whole other kind of creativity.
Speaker 3: Yes, And also for me, it's kind of like, you know,
Speaker 3: my head, you know, I didn't know what they call it,
Speaker 3: eddideot whatever. My head runs and I'm thinking about on
Speaker 3: something like I'm thinking about free will, and I'm thinking
Speaker 3: about market situations and ai, I don't think about this
Speaker 3: all writing projects I'm developing. And then you yeah, you know,
Speaker 3: and then my you know, my daughter wants to throw
Speaker 3: the ball whatever the thing is, just scribble on something
Speaker 3: or she.
Speaker 2: Wants me to chase but she don't want me to
Speaker 2: chase it. She wants me to cold her and me run. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 3: And it's like you just have to be there doing
Speaker 3: that thing and to give them the most, it's to
Speaker 3: be present. And I'm so tempted I want to put
Speaker 3: a podcast in my ear while we're doing because it's
Speaker 3: like my brain needs this other things going on, and
Speaker 3: it's like it's quite hard for me to kind of
Speaker 3: let go and just be like okay, just present, like.
Speaker 2: We are running, we are rolling, and.
Speaker 3: Sure five to ten minutes is crying, but just figuring
Speaker 3: out that hour, that two hours, that yeah, that presence
Speaker 3: with them, and like you say, because they can't communicate
Speaker 3: on the breadth of bandwidth that we can and so
Speaker 3: we just have to go analog.
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's incredible, it's incredible. Ah well, this has
Speaker 1: just been such a joy.
Speaker 2: Yeah we have to do it again.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, and you know, best of work with the
Speaker 1: show coming soon and I mean, gosh, just all of it.
Speaker 1: It's really really exciting and and yeah we'll have to
Speaker 1: we'll have to dive back into some of the nerdy
Speaker 1: policy processing soon for it. All right, my dear, thank
Speaker 1: you for today.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you. M