Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2: I'm delighted to be joined by Yet Stoltenberg, the former
Speaker 2: NATO Secretary General. Mister Stoltenberg, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 2: I mean, for the next six months, I think market
Speaker 2: security experts, world leaders will try and figure out what
Speaker 2: Trump two point zero means for world security, world peace,
Speaker 2: and of course the economy. You've dealt with him in
Speaker 2: the past, sometimes in a great manner. Sometimes I know
Speaker 2: it was front discussions. What do you think the best
Speaker 2: way to deal with mister Trump is?
Speaker 1: I think the best way is to actually address the
Speaker 1: issues so that he raises innate that we made the
Speaker 1: decision in twenty sixteen to engage with them the incoming
Speaker 1: Trump administration. We did so for four years and I
Speaker 1: had a good working relationship with him. That doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that we agreed on all issues, but the main messach
Speaker 1: was that European allies had to spend more, and we
Speaker 1: addressed that. It was a message on China, the consequence
Speaker 1: for our security and also on Russian gas. So we
Speaker 1: decided to engage to address the issues, and I think
Speaker 1: that's the best way also this time.
Speaker 2: I mean sometimes he uses actually language that is very disparaging.
Speaker 2: Is that hurtful for relations or do you have to
Speaker 2: just look beyond that.
Speaker 3: He has a different style.
Speaker 1: But again I think we need to focus and that's
Speaker 1: what we did, and I did also focus on the substance.
Speaker 1: And again the main message was that it was unfair
Speaker 1: that the United States paid three or four percent the
Speaker 1: GDP on defense while many other European native allies in
Speaker 1: Canada spent one plus something. And this has been a
Speaker 1: message from many US presidents.
Speaker 3: It was actually present to Bama.
Speaker 1: That forced to the decision in twenty fourteen in Ato
Speaker 1: to increase defense spending to two percent of GDP. At
Speaker 1: that time, only three allies spent two percent of GDP
Speaker 1: on defense.
Speaker 3: This twenty they.
Speaker 1: Allies are spending three percent of GDP on defense. So
Speaker 1: this has really changed for many reasons, but also because
Speaker 1: so the clear message from President Johnthany was in office last.
Speaker 2: Like how worried are you about Ukraine the fact that
Speaker 2: they may not get enough funds, they may not get
Speaker 2: enough weapons, but also that there is always a risk
Speaker 2: that Donald Trump sides with Russia.
Speaker 3: So we all want this war to end.
Speaker 1: At the same time, in know that the quickest way
Speaker 1: to end the war is to do the war. But
Speaker 1: that will not bring peace, That will bring occupation of Ukraine,
Speaker 1: and it will make the whole world more dangerous because
Speaker 1: the message then to present thirteen but most to all
Speaker 1: the altered hearing leaders, is that when they use force,
Speaker 1: when they invade another country, they get what they want.
Speaker 1: So it's in our security interest to ensure that the
Speaker 1: Ukraine provails. So the challenge is to end the war
Speaker 1: in a way that doesn't need to occupation, but to
Speaker 1: end the war in a way where Ukraine prevails as
Speaker 1: a suffarate in the pendent nation. At some stage there
Speaker 1: has to be some kind of political negotiated solution. But
Speaker 1: you know, what happens around the negotiating table is so
Speaker 1: close a link.
Speaker 3: To the strength on the battlefield.
Speaker 1: So if you want a negotiated solution to the war
Speaker 1: where Ukraine prevails as a democratic state in Europe, then
Speaker 1: we need to provide military support to Ukraine.
Speaker 2: So what does that look like that solution And is
Speaker 2: there a danger that the US actually you know, manages
Speaker 2: to cobble something together, some kind of agreement without the
Speaker 2: guarantee from the US side of Ukraine's sovereignty.
Speaker 1: Well, it's for Ukrainians to decide what will be or
Speaker 1: would be an acceptable solution, but there has to be
Speaker 1: at least two elements. One is a line agreed. But second,
Speaker 1: when such a line is agreed, then we need to
Speaker 1: ensure that actually it stops there because we have agreed
Speaker 1: or the Ukrainians have agreed lines with Russia before. When
Speaker 1: the annexed cramea back in twenty fourty, we had something
Speaker 1: called minsklone. There was a line, then Russia violated that
Speaker 1: and we bought Minsk to a line further west, and
Speaker 1: then the Russian waited for seven years and invade on
Speaker 1: the full scale Ukraine. So we cannot have what they
Speaker 1: called Minsk Tree yet another line which is not respected.
Speaker 1: So when a line is agreed, we need some kind
Speaker 1: of guarantee that Russia doesn't continue after reorganizing their troops
Speaker 1: and there if we need either to arm the Ukrainian
Speaker 1: so they can deter future reggression themselves, and or some
Speaker 1: kind of security guarantees. A Natal membership is of course
Speaker 1: the ultimate security guarantee for Ukraine.
Speaker 2: But mister Saltenburg, do you think we're closer to an
Speaker 2: agreement or are we closer to peace under President Trump
Speaker 2: or are we're further away from peace.
Speaker 1: I'm certain that the President Termpany's administration would like to
Speaker 1: find a way to end this war, and of course
Speaker 1: my mess it will be that they had to find
Speaker 1: a way to end the war which respects US sovereignty
Speaker 1: and the interest of Ukraine. That is also in our interest. Second,
Speaker 1: when I worked with President from last time, Middle's president
Speaker 1: and then I remember that actually he made and his
Speaker 1: adverstation made an important decision to start to deliver legal
Speaker 1: aid to Ukraine, weapons to Ukraine that was not the
Speaker 1: natal policy.
Speaker 3: Up till then.
Speaker 1: And in twenty seventeen or eighteen, the decision was taken
Speaker 1: to start a.
Speaker 3: Deliver for instance, javelins, the anti tank weapons that proved
Speaker 3: so extremely important.
Speaker 1: So the messages we need to strengthen Ukraine to enable
Speaker 1: a negotiated peaceful solution. I don't think we can change
Speaker 1: Putin's mind. His aim is to control Ukraine, but I
Speaker 1: think we can change his calculus that the pricey pace
Speaker 1: for controlling Ukraine is too high, so it has to
Speaker 1: accept something where Ukraine creates.
Speaker 2: I mean, is there about ten thousand North Korean troops
Speaker 2: invited by Russia the Ukrainian border.
Speaker 1: Make of that, it demonstrates that security is not longer
Speaker 1: regional security is global. As the Japanese form of Japanese
Speaker 1: Prime Minister Kashida said, what happens in Ukraine today can
Speaker 1: happen in Asia tomorrow. And we see how Iran and
Speaker 1: North Korea but also China are in different ways supporting Russia.
Speaker 1: Iran with missiles, drones, in North Korea with ammunition, enormous
Speaker 1: amounts of ammunition, but also solders. So it demonstrates that
Speaker 1: we need to have a global perspective. Or what happens
Speaker 1: in Ukraine it matters for global security, and therefore it
Speaker 1: makes it even more important to support U BRAIN.
Speaker 2: I mean, whether people like or don't like Donald Trump,
Speaker 2: he's certainly more unpredictable than certain other administration. Does that
Speaker 2: make the world safer because people without the rule of
Speaker 2: law will be more careful and challenging US. Or doesn't
Speaker 2: make it less safe?
Speaker 1: I will be careful speculanking too much before we have
Speaker 1: seen actually what the new communization will do.
Speaker 3: Again.
Speaker 1: I think that NATO, allies, all the partners around the
Speaker 1: world have to sit down and engage with the new
Speaker 1: administration and actually address the issues they are concerned about it.
Speaker 3: That's the way we work in NATO, have worked in
Speaker 3: many years.
Speaker 1: And if you're concerned about climate, or trade or security,
Speaker 1: sit down, discuss those issues and sometimes I actually exist
Speaker 1: that we can solve together.
Speaker 2: Mister Stettenberg, thank you so much for joining us.
Speaker 3: I was yes.
Speaker 2: Stottenberg, the former Native Secretary General, is very powerful words
Speaker 2: about how world leaders will actually actually deal with Donald
Speaker 2: Trump going forward.