WEBVTT - Former NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg Talks Engaging with the Trump Administration

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm delighted to be joined by Yet Stoltenberg, the former

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<v Speaker 2>NATO Secretary General. Mister Stoltenberg, thank you for joining us.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, for the next six months, I think market

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<v Speaker 2>security experts, world leaders will try and figure out what

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<v Speaker 2>Trump two point zero means for world security, world peace,

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<v Speaker 2>and of course the economy. You've dealt with him in

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<v Speaker 2>the past, sometimes in a great manner. Sometimes I know

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<v Speaker 2>it was front discussions. What do you think the best

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<v Speaker 2>way to deal with mister Trump is?

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<v Speaker 1>I think the best way is to actually address the

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<v Speaker 1>issues so that he raises innate that we made the

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<v Speaker 1>decision in twenty sixteen to engage with them the incoming

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<v Speaker 1>Trump administration. We did so for four years and I

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<v Speaker 1>had a good working relationship with him. That doesn't mean

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<v Speaker 1>that we agreed on all issues, but the main messach

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<v Speaker 1>was that European allies had to spend more, and we

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<v Speaker 1>addressed that. It was a message on China, the consequence

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<v Speaker 1>for our security and also on Russian gas. So we

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<v Speaker 1>decided to engage to address the issues, and I think

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<v Speaker 1>that's the best way also this time.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean sometimes he uses actually language that is very disparaging.

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<v Speaker 2>Is that hurtful for relations or do you have to

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<v Speaker 2>just look beyond that.

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<v Speaker 3>He has a different style.

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<v Speaker 1>But again I think we need to focus and that's

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<v Speaker 1>what we did, and I did also focus on the substance.

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<v Speaker 1>And again the main message was that it was unfair

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<v Speaker 1>that the United States paid three or four percent the

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<v Speaker 1>GDP on defense while many other European native allies in

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<v Speaker 1>Canada spent one plus something. And this has been a

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<v Speaker 1>message from many US presidents.

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<v Speaker 3>It was actually present to Bama.

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<v Speaker 1>That forced to the decision in twenty fourteen in Ato

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<v Speaker 1>to increase defense spending to two percent of GDP. At

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<v Speaker 1>that time, only three allies spent two percent of GDP

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<v Speaker 1>on defense.

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<v Speaker 3>This twenty they.

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<v Speaker 1>Allies are spending three percent of GDP on defense. So

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<v Speaker 1>this has really changed for many reasons, but also because

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<v Speaker 1>so the clear message from President Johnthany was in office last.

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<v Speaker 2>Like how worried are you about Ukraine the fact that

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<v Speaker 2>they may not get enough funds, they may not get

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<v Speaker 2>enough weapons, but also that there is always a risk

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<v Speaker 2>that Donald Trump sides with Russia.

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<v Speaker 3>So we all want this war to end.

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<v Speaker 1>At the same time, in know that the quickest way

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<v Speaker 1>to end the war is to do the war. But

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<v Speaker 1>that will not bring peace, That will bring occupation of Ukraine,

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<v Speaker 1>and it will make the whole world more dangerous because

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<v Speaker 1>the message then to present thirteen but most to all

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<v Speaker 1>the altered hearing leaders, is that when they use force,

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<v Speaker 1>when they invade another country, they get what they want.

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<v Speaker 1>So it's in our security interest to ensure that the

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<v Speaker 1>Ukraine provails. So the challenge is to end the war

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<v Speaker 1>in a way that doesn't need to occupation, but to

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<v Speaker 1>end the war in a way where Ukraine prevails as

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<v Speaker 1>a suffarate in the pendent nation. At some stage there

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<v Speaker 1>has to be some kind of political negotiated solution. But

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<v Speaker 1>you know, what happens around the negotiating table is so

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<v Speaker 1>close a link.

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<v Speaker 3>To the strength on the battlefield.

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<v Speaker 1>So if you want a negotiated solution to the war

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<v Speaker 1>where Ukraine prevails as a democratic state in Europe, then

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<v Speaker 1>we need to provide military support to Ukraine.

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<v Speaker 2>So what does that look like that solution And is

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<v Speaker 2>there a danger that the US actually you know, manages

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<v Speaker 2>to cobble something together, some kind of agreement without the

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<v Speaker 2>guarantee from the US side of Ukraine's sovereignty.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, it's for Ukrainians to decide what will be or

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<v Speaker 1>would be an acceptable solution, but there has to be

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<v Speaker 1>at least two elements. One is a line agreed. But second,

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<v Speaker 1>when such a line is agreed, then we need to

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<v Speaker 1>ensure that actually it stops there because we have agreed

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<v Speaker 1>or the Ukrainians have agreed lines with Russia before. When

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<v Speaker 1>the annexed cramea back in twenty fourty, we had something

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<v Speaker 1>called minsklone. There was a line, then Russia violated that

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<v Speaker 1>and we bought Minsk to a line further west, and

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<v Speaker 1>then the Russian waited for seven years and invade on

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<v Speaker 1>the full scale Ukraine. So we cannot have what they

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<v Speaker 1>called Minsk Tree yet another line which is not respected.

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<v Speaker 1>So when a line is agreed, we need some kind

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<v Speaker 1>of guarantee that Russia doesn't continue after reorganizing their troops

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<v Speaker 1>and there if we need either to arm the Ukrainian

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<v Speaker 1>so they can deter future reggression themselves, and or some

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<v Speaker 1>kind of security guarantees. A Natal membership is of course

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<v Speaker 1>the ultimate security guarantee for Ukraine.

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<v Speaker 2>But mister Saltenburg, do you think we're closer to an

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<v Speaker 2>agreement or are we closer to peace under President Trump

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<v Speaker 2>or are we're further away from peace.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm certain that the President Termpany's administration would like to

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<v Speaker 1>find a way to end this war, and of course

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<v Speaker 1>my mess it will be that they had to find

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<v Speaker 1>a way to end the war which respects US sovereignty

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<v Speaker 1>and the interest of Ukraine. That is also in our interest. Second,

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<v Speaker 1>when I worked with President from last time, Middle's president

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<v Speaker 1>and then I remember that actually he made and his

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<v Speaker 1>adverstation made an important decision to start to deliver legal

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<v Speaker 1>aid to Ukraine, weapons to Ukraine that was not the

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<v Speaker 1>natal policy.

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<v Speaker 3>Up till then.

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<v Speaker 1>And in twenty seventeen or eighteen, the decision was taken

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<v Speaker 1>to start a.

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<v Speaker 3>Deliver for instance, javelins, the anti tank weapons that proved

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<v Speaker 3>so extremely important.

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<v Speaker 1>So the messages we need to strengthen Ukraine to enable

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<v Speaker 1>a negotiated peaceful solution. I don't think we can change

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<v Speaker 1>Putin's mind. His aim is to control Ukraine, but I

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<v Speaker 1>think we can change his calculus that the pricey pace

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<v Speaker 1>for controlling Ukraine is too high, so it has to

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<v Speaker 1>accept something where Ukraine creates.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, is there about ten thousand North Korean troops

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<v Speaker 2>invited by Russia the Ukrainian border.

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<v Speaker 1>Make of that, it demonstrates that security is not longer

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<v Speaker 1>regional security is global. As the Japanese form of Japanese

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<v Speaker 1>Prime Minister Kashida said, what happens in Ukraine today can

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<v Speaker 1>happen in Asia tomorrow. And we see how Iran and

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<v Speaker 1>North Korea but also China are in different ways supporting Russia.

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<v Speaker 1>Iran with missiles, drones, in North Korea with ammunition, enormous

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<v Speaker 1>amounts of ammunition, but also solders. So it demonstrates that

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<v Speaker 1>we need to have a global perspective. Or what happens

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<v Speaker 1>in Ukraine it matters for global security, and therefore it

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<v Speaker 1>makes it even more important to support U BRAIN.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, whether people like or don't like Donald Trump,

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<v Speaker 2>he's certainly more unpredictable than certain other administration. Does that

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<v Speaker 2>make the world safer because people without the rule of

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<v Speaker 2>law will be more careful and challenging US. Or doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>make it less safe?

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<v Speaker 1>I will be careful speculanking too much before we have

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<v Speaker 1>seen actually what the new communization will do.

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<v Speaker 3>Again.

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<v Speaker 1>I think that NATO, allies, all the partners around the

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<v Speaker 1>world have to sit down and engage with the new

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<v Speaker 1>administration and actually address the issues they are concerned about it.

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<v Speaker 3>That's the way we work in NATO, have worked in

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<v Speaker 3>many years.

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<v Speaker 1>And if you're concerned about climate, or trade or security,

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<v Speaker 1>sit down, discuss those issues and sometimes I actually exist

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<v Speaker 1>that we can solve together.

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<v Speaker 2>Mister Stettenberg, thank you so much for joining us.

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<v Speaker 3>I was yes.

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<v Speaker 2>Stottenberg, the former Native Secretary General, is very powerful words

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<v Speaker 2>about how world leaders will actually actually deal with Donald

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<v Speaker 2>Trump going forward.