1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:07,000 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:10,200 Speaker 2: I'm delighted to be joined by Yet Stoltenberg, the former 3 00:00:10,280 --> 00:00:13,399 Speaker 2: NATO Secretary General. Mister Stoltenberg, thank you for joining us. 4 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:15,560 Speaker 2: I mean, for the next six months, I think market 5 00:00:15,800 --> 00:00:18,919 Speaker 2: security experts, world leaders will try and figure out what 6 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:22,520 Speaker 2: Trump two point zero means for world security, world peace, 7 00:00:22,880 --> 00:00:25,319 Speaker 2: and of course the economy. You've dealt with him in 8 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 2: the past, sometimes in a great manner. Sometimes I know 9 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 2: it was front discussions. What do you think the best 10 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:33,040 Speaker 2: way to deal with mister Trump is? 11 00:00:33,800 --> 00:00:37,360 Speaker 1: I think the best way is to actually address the 12 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:40,640 Speaker 1: issues so that he raises innate that we made the 13 00:00:40,680 --> 00:00:44,639 Speaker 1: decision in twenty sixteen to engage with them the incoming 14 00:00:44,760 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: Trump administration. We did so for four years and I 15 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:51,599 Speaker 1: had a good working relationship with him. That doesn't mean 16 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:55,400 Speaker 1: that we agreed on all issues, but the main messach 17 00:00:55,840 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 1: was that European allies had to spend more, and we 18 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,080 Speaker 1: addressed that. It was a message on China, the consequence 19 00:01:02,120 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: for our security and also on Russian gas. So we 20 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:08,920 Speaker 1: decided to engage to address the issues, and I think 21 00:01:08,920 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: that's the best way also this time. 22 00:01:11,080 --> 00:01:14,520 Speaker 2: I mean sometimes he uses actually language that is very disparaging. 23 00:01:14,720 --> 00:01:16,760 Speaker 2: Is that hurtful for relations or do you have to 24 00:01:16,800 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 2: just look beyond that. 25 00:01:17,880 --> 00:01:19,000 Speaker 3: He has a different style. 26 00:01:19,440 --> 00:01:22,880 Speaker 1: But again I think we need to focus and that's 27 00:01:22,959 --> 00:01:25,679 Speaker 1: what we did, and I did also focus on the substance. 28 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:29,520 Speaker 1: And again the main message was that it was unfair 29 00:01:30,080 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 1: that the United States paid three or four percent the 30 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:38,200 Speaker 1: GDP on defense while many other European native allies in 31 00:01:38,240 --> 00:01:43,960 Speaker 1: Canada spent one plus something. And this has been a 32 00:01:43,959 --> 00:01:46,840 Speaker 1: message from many US presidents. 33 00:01:46,959 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 3: It was actually present to Bama. 34 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: That forced to the decision in twenty fourteen in Ato 35 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: to increase defense spending to two percent of GDP. At 36 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: that time, only three allies spent two percent of GDP 37 00:01:58,680 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: on defense. 38 00:01:59,800 --> 00:02:01,240 Speaker 3: This twenty they. 39 00:02:01,280 --> 00:02:03,720 Speaker 1: Allies are spending three percent of GDP on defense. So 40 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: this has really changed for many reasons, but also because 41 00:02:08,280 --> 00:02:12,239 Speaker 1: so the clear message from President Johnthany was in office last. 42 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 2: Like how worried are you about Ukraine the fact that 43 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 2: they may not get enough funds, they may not get 44 00:02:16,440 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 2: enough weapons, but also that there is always a risk 45 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:21,760 Speaker 2: that Donald Trump sides with Russia. 46 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 3: So we all want this war to end. 47 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:28,960 Speaker 1: At the same time, in know that the quickest way 48 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,080 Speaker 1: to end the war is to do the war. But 49 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:35,880 Speaker 1: that will not bring peace, That will bring occupation of Ukraine, 50 00:02:35,919 --> 00:02:38,200 Speaker 1: and it will make the whole world more dangerous because 51 00:02:38,240 --> 00:02:40,760 Speaker 1: the message then to present thirteen but most to all 52 00:02:40,800 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: the altered hearing leaders, is that when they use force, 53 00:02:43,639 --> 00:02:46,240 Speaker 1: when they invade another country, they get what they want. 54 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,679 Speaker 1: So it's in our security interest to ensure that the 55 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 1: Ukraine provails. So the challenge is to end the war 56 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 1: in a way that doesn't need to occupation, but to 57 00:02:56,480 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: end the war in a way where Ukraine prevails as 58 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 1: a suffarate in the pendent nation. At some stage there 59 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: has to be some kind of political negotiated solution. But 60 00:03:05,080 --> 00:03:08,520 Speaker 1: you know, what happens around the negotiating table is so 61 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 1: close a link. 62 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,079 Speaker 3: To the strength on the battlefield. 63 00:03:11,120 --> 00:03:14,720 Speaker 1: So if you want a negotiated solution to the war 64 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: where Ukraine prevails as a democratic state in Europe, then 65 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:21,240 Speaker 1: we need to provide military support to Ukraine. 66 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,080 Speaker 2: So what does that look like that solution And is 67 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 2: there a danger that the US actually you know, manages 68 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:29,519 Speaker 2: to cobble something together, some kind of agreement without the 69 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 2: guarantee from the US side of Ukraine's sovereignty. 70 00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: Well, it's for Ukrainians to decide what will be or 71 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:43,320 Speaker 1: would be an acceptable solution, but there has to be 72 00:03:43,320 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: at least two elements. One is a line agreed. But second, 73 00:03:47,520 --> 00:03:51,360 Speaker 1: when such a line is agreed, then we need to 74 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,400 Speaker 1: ensure that actually it stops there because we have agreed 75 00:03:54,480 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: or the Ukrainians have agreed lines with Russia before. When 76 00:03:58,000 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 1: the annexed cramea back in twenty fourty, we had something 77 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: called minsklone. There was a line, then Russia violated that 78 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:07,440 Speaker 1: and we bought Minsk to a line further west, and 79 00:04:07,480 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 1: then the Russian waited for seven years and invade on 80 00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 1: the full scale Ukraine. So we cannot have what they 81 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,760 Speaker 1: called Minsk Tree yet another line which is not respected. 82 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: So when a line is agreed, we need some kind 83 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 1: of guarantee that Russia doesn't continue after reorganizing their troops 84 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:31,920 Speaker 1: and there if we need either to arm the Ukrainian 85 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 1: so they can deter future reggression themselves, and or some 86 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:40,240 Speaker 1: kind of security guarantees. A Natal membership is of course 87 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:42,400 Speaker 1: the ultimate security guarantee for Ukraine. 88 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 2: But mister Saltenburg, do you think we're closer to an 89 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:47,479 Speaker 2: agreement or are we closer to peace under President Trump 90 00:04:47,560 --> 00:04:48,880 Speaker 2: or are we're further away from peace. 91 00:04:50,360 --> 00:04:53,560 Speaker 1: I'm certain that the President Termpany's administration would like to 92 00:04:53,600 --> 00:04:56,120 Speaker 1: find a way to end this war, and of course 93 00:04:56,120 --> 00:04:57,680 Speaker 1: my mess it will be that they had to find 94 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: a way to end the war which respects US sovereignty 95 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:05,919 Speaker 1: and the interest of Ukraine. That is also in our interest. Second, 96 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: when I worked with President from last time, Middle's president 97 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: and then I remember that actually he made and his 98 00:05:11,880 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 1: adverstation made an important decision to start to deliver legal 99 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:21,040 Speaker 1: aid to Ukraine, weapons to Ukraine that was not the 100 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 1: natal policy. 101 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 3: Up till then. 102 00:05:23,279 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 1: And in twenty seventeen or eighteen, the decision was taken 103 00:05:27,560 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: to start a. 104 00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,360 Speaker 3: Deliver for instance, javelins, the anti tank weapons that proved 105 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:32,719 Speaker 3: so extremely important. 106 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: So the messages we need to strengthen Ukraine to enable 107 00:05:37,839 --> 00:05:42,160 Speaker 1: a negotiated peaceful solution. I don't think we can change 108 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,840 Speaker 1: Putin's mind. His aim is to control Ukraine, but I 109 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,080 Speaker 1: think we can change his calculus that the pricey pace 110 00:05:49,200 --> 00:05:51,720 Speaker 1: for controlling Ukraine is too high, so it has to 111 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,240 Speaker 1: accept something where Ukraine creates. 112 00:05:54,440 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 2: I mean, is there about ten thousand North Korean troops 113 00:05:57,000 --> 00:05:59,480 Speaker 2: invited by Russia the Ukrainian border. 114 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: Make of that, it demonstrates that security is not longer 115 00:06:04,560 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 1: regional security is global. As the Japanese form of Japanese 116 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: Prime Minister Kashida said, what happens in Ukraine today can 117 00:06:14,000 --> 00:06:19,040 Speaker 1: happen in Asia tomorrow. And we see how Iran and 118 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:26,640 Speaker 1: North Korea but also China are in different ways supporting Russia. 119 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:33,279 Speaker 1: Iran with missiles, drones, in North Korea with ammunition, enormous 120 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 1: amounts of ammunition, but also solders. So it demonstrates that 121 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: we need to have a global perspective. Or what happens 122 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: in Ukraine it matters for global security, and therefore it 123 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:47,080 Speaker 1: makes it even more important to support U BRAIN. 124 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 2: I mean, whether people like or don't like Donald Trump, 125 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 2: he's certainly more unpredictable than certain other administration. Does that 126 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 2: make the world safer because people without the rule of 127 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:01,000 Speaker 2: law will be more careful and challenging US. Or doesn't 128 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 2: make it less safe? 129 00:07:02,600 --> 00:07:05,240 Speaker 1: I will be careful speculanking too much before we have 130 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:08,279 Speaker 1: seen actually what the new communization will do. 131 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:09,680 Speaker 3: Again. 132 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:14,280 Speaker 1: I think that NATO, allies, all the partners around the 133 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:18,400 Speaker 1: world have to sit down and engage with the new 134 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: administration and actually address the issues they are concerned about it. 135 00:07:22,360 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 3: That's the way we work in NATO, have worked in 136 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 3: many years. 137 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 1: And if you're concerned about climate, or trade or security, 138 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: sit down, discuss those issues and sometimes I actually exist 139 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 1: that we can solve together. 140 00:07:34,960 --> 00:07:36,720 Speaker 2: Mister Stettenberg, thank you so much for joining us. 141 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:37,120 Speaker 3: I was yes. 142 00:07:37,240 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 2: Stottenberg, the former Native Secretary General, is very powerful words 143 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 2: about how world leaders will actually actually deal with Donald 144 00:07:44,440 --> 00:07:45,240 Speaker 2: Trump going forward.