Speaker 1: Broadcasting from the Hip Hop Weekly Studios. I'd like to
Speaker 1: welcome you to another episode of Civic Cipher, where our
Speaker 1: mission is to foster allyship empathy and understanding. I am
Speaker 1: your host, Ramsy's job.
Speaker 2: He is Ramsey's job. I am q Ward. You are
Speaker 2: tuned in the Civic Cipher, Yes you are, and we
Speaker 2: got some interesting things to discuss today. Was hoping that you'll.
Speaker 1: Say the right way to put it interesting. Definitely. We're
Speaker 1: going to spend some time talking about Governor Mike Parson.
Speaker 1: If you're familiar with this state of Missouri. There's been
Speaker 1: a lot of goings on in that place, and I
Speaker 1: think that his position really illuminates what we say when
Speaker 1: we talk about things like systemic oppression, because he is
Speaker 1: like kind of a physical individual embodiment of that idea
Speaker 1: of oppression, as in so far as systems are concerned,
Speaker 1: because I think a lot of people think that systems
Speaker 1: were created and they are artificially like turning on their
Speaker 1: own access, like self refueling. But indeed there are individuals
Speaker 1: who rise to the top of those systems in many circumstances,
Speaker 1: and then they get to continue to double and triple
Speaker 1: down on historic injustices, and we're going to talk about that.
Speaker 1: We're also going to spend some time talking about the
Speaker 1: name it's been in the news lately, Luigi Mangioni, and
Speaker 1: kind of the way the criminal justice is, the criminal
Speaker 1: justice system is looking at his situation and how a
Speaker 1: lot of times he's afforded some leeway and some benefit
Speaker 1: of the doubt that doesn't really come up a lot
Speaker 1: of times if a person is black. And so these
Speaker 1: are both things that Q definitely wanted to talk about.
Speaker 1: So we're going to take the time to talk about
Speaker 1: that and more. But before we're going to before we
Speaker 1: get there, we're going to discuss, as always, some Ebony excellence,
Speaker 1: shall we and I think you know you shall today.
Speaker 2: So by the way, okay, this week's EBNY Excellence sponsored
Speaker 2: by Actively Black. There is greatness in our DNA. Visit
Speaker 2: actively black dot com. This week we'll be highlighting Colorado
Speaker 2: buffalo athlete Heisman Trophy winner Travis Hunter. Many people know
Speaker 2: Travis Hunter as a number one overall high school prospect
Speaker 2: who committed to Florida State University and famously decommitted to
Speaker 2: go with coach Prime to Jackson State, which to say
Speaker 2: it was controversial at the time, really wouldn't be saying enough.
Speaker 2: Went on to Jackson State. They did great things there.
Speaker 2: He then followed coach Prime again to the University of Colorado,
Speaker 2: where he became not just the Heisman Trophy winner, but
Speaker 2: I have to pull out this list to make sure
Speaker 2: I don't miss anything, because it is a very long
Speaker 2: and extensive list of awards that he won this year.
Speaker 1: I'm a fan of this guy, and I'm to be fair,
Speaker 1: just kind of learning more about him.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Travis Hunter, the twenty twenty four Heisman Trophy winner,
Speaker 2: was also First Team All American Offense and First Team
Speaker 2: All American Defense. If that was the whole list, that
Speaker 2: would be enough, because he was a unanimous first team
Speaker 2: All American on both teams. He'll be the cover of
Speaker 2: the NCAA College Football Games CFB twenty five and Academic
Speaker 2: All American with a four point oh GPA, the Big
Speaker 2: Twelve Defensive Player of the Year, the Associated Press National
Speaker 2: Player of the Year, the Lot Impact Trophy winner, the
Speaker 2: Paul Hornings Award winner, the Bernerick Award winner, the Blittnikoff
Speaker 2: Award winner, the Walcher Campbell Award winner, and again the
Speaker 2: Heisman Trophy. All of this this season. This is not
Speaker 2: a compilation of his entire career. All of that happened
Speaker 2: this year, and I think he deserves to be highlighted
Speaker 2: in our Ebony excellence.
Speaker 1: I'm glad that we are able to do that. Shout
Speaker 1: out to you, Travis Hunter. Keep going, all right, Mike Parson.
Speaker 1: Because of the fact that it is challenging, I'm going
Speaker 1: to try to put this as kindly as I can.
Speaker 1: I know you hate when I do this, but are
Speaker 1: just challenging for a lot of our brothers and sisters, particularly,
Speaker 1: are brothers Caucasian brothers. To conceive of an invisible system
Speaker 1: that is artificially oppressing black people when black people have
Speaker 1: the same twenty four hours in the day, when they
Speaker 1: themselves were born into impoverished circumstances, and they have made
Speaker 1: a name for themselves and made an honest go at it,
Speaker 1: when they simply just cooperate with police. How inconceivable an
Speaker 1: artificial system that oppressing black people is to those people,
Speaker 1: It can be understood understandable if you allow them that
Speaker 1: much grace, right, And this is for people who maybe
Speaker 1: they don't have any hatred in their heart, maybe they
Speaker 1: sincerely or they haven't come to terms with the fact
Speaker 1: that they might have some biases that whatever, these people
Speaker 1: may exist. Okay, so I have to have this hypothetical
Speaker 1: argument because you know, for the folks who listen to
Speaker 1: the show, you might have to take this into a
Speaker 1: conversation with your family, a conversation around the water cooler
Speaker 1: at work, and talk to individuals who fit this bill.
Speaker 1: And you cannot come at those people guns blazing like, hey,
Speaker 1: you're racist. Systemic oppression exists, because they're immediately going to
Speaker 1: reject it on his face and push back. So you
Speaker 1: have to kind of meet them where they think they are.
Speaker 1: So forgive me for playing into the delusion, but I
Speaker 1: think it's necessary if we're going to make some progress. Okay,
Speaker 1: all right, So this in this thought experiment, this man exists, right.
Speaker 1: He cannot imagine an invisible system oppressing black and brown
Speaker 1: people because everybody has the same access to the American dream.
Speaker 1: Look at Oprah, look at Jordan, look at you know
Speaker 1: insert name here, look at Lebron and they don't think
Speaker 1: of those Obama. Yeah, and they don't think of those
Speaker 1: people as one in a million, you know, gifted natural
Speaker 1: talents or people that were exceptionally lucky and had the
Speaker 1: right set of circumstances happen in the right road for them.
Speaker 1: They look at them as people who work just as
Speaker 1: hard as they do, ignoring the fact that they don't
Speaker 1: have as much success as an Oprah or an Obama.
Speaker 1: But you know, this is the way that the world
Speaker 1: makes sense to them. So we're going to meet them there.
Speaker 1: How we personify systemic oppression really matters because I think
Speaker 1: that it might help that concept live in the minds
Speaker 1: and the hearts of those people. So today we're going
Speaker 1: to talk about Governor Mike Parson. Now he's in the
Speaker 1: news lately because he has pardoned. I think it is
Speaker 1: the right term. I'll give you the exact term because
Speaker 1: I have an article from the Associated Press to share.
Speaker 1: But he's pardon a police officer who is convicted of
Speaker 1: killing a black man. I'll give you the full story
Speaker 1: in just a second. But the juxtaposition of his position
Speaker 1: it might have been a matter of months ago, and
Speaker 1: we actually covered that on this story, where he had
Speaker 1: the same capacity to pardon a black man, whether it
Speaker 1: was considerable doubt over whether or not he was guilty,
Speaker 1: and chose not to exercise that I think that it
Speaker 1: illuminates how there, indeed are people at the helm of
Speaker 1: many of these invisible systems that show the bias. I
Speaker 1: think that it's been woven into this country and indeed
Speaker 1: into the individuals, because I'm sure if you asked Governor
Speaker 1: Mike Parson, are you a racist man? He would simply reply, no,
Speaker 1: absolutely not. How could you even suggest such a preposterous
Speaker 1: thing to me? But I think that we'll make a
Speaker 1: case that it's at least worth considering. Allow me to begin.
Speaker 1: I know you're ready to go get it. Let me
Speaker 1: paint the picture.
Speaker 2: Okay.
Speaker 1: This from the Associated Press. A white former Kansas City
Speaker 1: police officer who was convicted of involuntary manslaughter and the
Speaker 1: fatal shooting of a black man, was released from prison
Speaker 1: Friday after Missouri's governor commuted his sentence to parole. The
Speaker 1: decision by Republican Governor Mike Parson to free Eric Devanderer
Speaker 1: Sorry Deval, I had the name. I'm so sorry Devalkennair.
Speaker 1: That was It came after months of public debate about
Speaker 1: the case, which had fueled both racial justice protest and impassion.
Speaker 1: Please for mercy from Devalcanaire's supporters. Who asserted he had
Speaker 1: been unjustly convicted. De Valcnaire was serving a six year
Speaker 1: prison sentence. He was convicted in twenty twenty one of
Speaker 1: killing twenty six year old Cameron Lamb as he backed
Speaker 1: into his garage. This is another story that we covered
Speaker 1: on the show. Lamb's name was invoked frequently during racial
Speaker 1: injustice protests in Kansas City in twenty twenty following the
Speaker 1: police killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis. Lamb's family even
Speaker 1: met with then President Donald Trump that year. So what
Speaker 1: we have is a story that was covered, an unjust
Speaker 1: murder of a black man by a police officer. Okay,
Speaker 1: this happened before twenty twenty, That happened since policing existed. Okay,
Speaker 1: it has certainly happened before twenty twenty, happened in twenty twenty,
Speaker 1: and still happens now. Okay, And as long as this
Speaker 1: type of stuff keeps happening, we are still going to
Speaker 1: do this show, and we are going to prioritize this
Speaker 1: show and not prioritize some of the other things that
Speaker 1: we do. They're way more on. But this is necessary,
Speaker 1: and this is this is a labor of love for
Speaker 1: us and We appreciate all of you who tune in
Speaker 1: and listen and get this dose of game that we
Speaker 1: think will help subtlely create the ripples that we need
Speaker 1: to create the waves of change in this country. Right
Speaker 1: back to the lecture at hand. So Governor Mike Parson
Speaker 1: looks at this story and the story that we all
Speaker 1: know is true. This man was convicted, okay, and he says,
Speaker 1: you know what, I'm going to commute his sentence. Perhaps
Speaker 1: because he's a police officer, perhaps because he's a white man.
Speaker 1: But these aren't things that Governor Mike Parson would admit.
Speaker 1: He may not even know it. I know, I know,
Speaker 1: I know you, I know I knew that laugh was coming.
Speaker 1: But he may not. It's not it. It's not impossible,
Speaker 1: however improbable. It's not impossible. He may not even know
Speaker 1: that he has such a strong bias. Right, He might
Speaker 1: just simply say, you know what, this man was doing
Speaker 1: his job, he thought he was doing what was right.
Speaker 1: He took an action that was unfortunate. An individual lost
Speaker 1: his life, and it just so happens to be the
Speaker 1: case that the officer is white and the individual that
Speaker 1: was killed as black. That might be his logic and
Speaker 1: there might be a lot of people who follow that logic,
Speaker 1: most of them because they needed to be true, but
Speaker 1: a small handful of people who think that that logic
Speaker 1: is plausible enough to have his sentence commuted. Right, Okay,
Speaker 1: Now here's where we're going to flip the script. This
Speaker 1: is from the Equal Justice Initiative. We covered this on
Speaker 1: this very show. Despite Saint Louis County prosecuting Attorney Wesley
Speaker 1: Bell's opposition, Missouri executed Marcellus Williams fifty five, for a
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety eight killing that he consistently maintained he did
Speaker 1: not commit. Quote. Marcellus Williams should be alive today, mister
Speaker 1: Bell said statement shortly after the execution. I goes on
Speaker 1: to say, if there's even the shadow of a doubt
Speaker 1: of innocence, the death penalty tea should never be an option.
Speaker 1: This outcome did not serve the interests of justice. That's
Speaker 1: the end of the quote. The prosecuting attorney wrote that
Speaker 1: new DNA evidence, increasing doubts about the credibility of the
Speaker 1: state's key witnesses, and constitutional defects including ineffective counsel and
Speaker 1: rationally discriminatory jury selection at trial, compelled him to ask
Speaker 1: the court circuit to correct this manifest injustice. A lot
Speaker 1: of physical evidence was collected at the crime scene, including
Speaker 1: the murder weapon which was a kitchen knife, bloody shoe
Speaker 1: prints and fingerprints and hairs on the victim's t shirt,
Speaker 1: her hands, and the floor that did not match her
Speaker 1: or her husband, and none of it can be tied
Speaker 1: to mister Williams, the prosecutor wrote. Mister Williams was excluded
Speaker 1: as the source of the footprints and hairs, the fingerprints,
Speaker 1: and male DNA that was recently recovered from the knife handle,
Speaker 1: with no direct evidence leaking mister Williams to the crime.
Speaker 1: The state's case depended on two unreliable witnesses, and of
Speaker 1: course there's more there. Of course, you can check out
Speaker 1: the rest of the Equal Justice Initiatives website. But there
Speaker 1: were many calls to Governor Mike Parson to pardon this man,
Speaker 1: to commutisent, whatever the case, just don't kill him. He
Speaker 1: could still be alive and in prison if you so choose.
Speaker 1: Just don't take his life because of all of this
Speaker 1: doubt cast on the case, and the Governor chose not to.
Speaker 1: He didn't miss these, he didn't not get he didn't
Speaker 1: hear about it. It's not that he didn't not hear
Speaker 1: about it. That's what I'm trying to say. He chose
Speaker 1: to just let the execution take place. Now, same person,
Speaker 1: same system, two outcomes, one with a more humanitarian and
Speaker 1: indeed a more reasonable, logical and linear path to a
Speaker 1: pardon or to a commuting of the sentence. Now, now
Speaker 1: that the picture is painted, Q, Flora is yours.
Speaker 2: You know, often when we have this conversation, the thing
Speaker 2: that catches me most off guard. And Okay, as I
Speaker 2: was saying that, I realized it wasn't true. It's not
Speaker 2: what catches me most off guard. Is just what upsets
Speaker 2: me most is that in the case with the white officer,
Speaker 2: there's not an argument being made that he didn't kill
Speaker 2: this person. We acknowledge that he killed him, we acknowledged
Speaker 2: that the person was unarmed. But we've somehow come to
Speaker 2: the conclusion that this officer was just doing his job
Speaker 2: and enough is enough. He doesn't deserve to be in prison,
Speaker 2: as is the case in most instances. We're not saying
Speaker 2: he didn't do it.
Speaker 1: I'm just saying he doesn't.
Speaker 2: We're just saying he doesn't deserve any accountability for it.
Speaker 2: We're just saying there's nothing wrong with what he did.
Speaker 1: That's a great way to say it.
Speaker 2: When it's a white officer, when it's a white man,
Speaker 2: when it's a white person, that benefit of the doubt
Speaker 2: always exists, That ignoring accountability always exists. That escape hatch,
Speaker 2: that strap door, let's just all be human beings about
Speaker 2: this and give this person another chance, always exist. And again,
Speaker 2: people think when we make our cases that we're saying
Speaker 2: let's be harder on everybody else, when we're simply saying,
Speaker 2: let's be easier on these afford us the same humanity.
Speaker 2: Everybody's here, the benefit of the doubt, the same grace.
Speaker 2: Not let's kill police officers back. No, how about we
Speaker 2: just demand they stop killing us? Is that okay, let's
Speaker 2: kill more white men. No, let's just not kill the
Speaker 2: black ones. Because Ramses and I unfortunately consume more of
Speaker 2: these stories and more of these videos than ever makes
Speaker 2: it in front of you, guys, We've seen white people
Speaker 2: being pursued by law enforcement, shoot at them, throw things
Speaker 2: at them, punch them, running to them with their cars,
Speaker 2: and the officers never even return fire when being shot at,
Speaker 2: never even fight back when being punched, never even harm
Speaker 2: people when they're trying to run them over with their cars,
Speaker 2: And in many cases, after these people have killed multiple people,
Speaker 2: they are pursued with grace and kindness, fed making sure
Speaker 2: that they're okay, given the benefit of the doubt, that
Speaker 2: maybe they're just having a bad day, that the worst
Speaker 2: thing that this person has ever done really isn't who
Speaker 2: they are, and we should all collectively just give them
Speaker 2: a break.
Speaker 1: Now, let me add something right here, right now, there's
Speaker 1: a video up on our social media. If you don't
Speaker 1: follow us, we're at Civic Cipher on all platforms. Right now,
Speaker 1: there's a video on our social media of an officer
Speaker 1: pulling a car over on the side of the freeway.
Speaker 1: There's a gentleman black. He's walking back to his car,
Speaker 1: the car that was just pulled over because he was
Speaker 1: let out on the freeway. And I couldn't tell you
Speaker 1: the story that happened before the video, but he's walking
Speaker 1: to the car. The officer is behind, So let me
Speaker 1: start over. The police officer pulls over maybe a van
Speaker 1: or something like that. Right the officer is radioing in
Speaker 1: to dispatch or something and saying, hey, I pulled over
Speaker 1: this vehicle, blah blah blah. The officer gets out of
Speaker 1: the car. A gentleman approaches on the officer's left side
Speaker 1: and is walking by the officer toward the vehicle in
Speaker 1: front of the police cruiser, right, the van that we're
Speaker 1: talking about here. And the officer says, do you know
Speaker 1: this person or something like that, and he's like, oh, no,
Speaker 1: I'm just getting a ride to the hospital. Right, And
Speaker 1: the officer pulls out and the guy keeps walking, just
Speaker 1: walks right past. The officer pulls out his gun and
Speaker 1: shoots him, and the man, the black man, drops right
Speaker 1: to the ground. He's like, no, I'm just getting ride
Speaker 1: to the hospital. Pulls out his gun, dam goes right
Speaker 1: to the floor. Ok, you can watch the video you yourself.
Speaker 1: Then a woman jumps out of the driver's seat of
Speaker 1: the van and she's screaming. She's like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: what have you done? What have you done? And the
Speaker 1: officers he had a gun. Now, the guy didn't move,
Speaker 1: he wasn't running. He walked right past him toward the band.
Speaker 1: Didn't turn. No, no sudden movement. You can watch a
Speaker 1: video for yourself. Shot him, balls right to the ground.
Speaker 1: Woman is screaming and she's like, he was his hat
Speaker 1: at something like his hat flew out the window of
Speaker 1: the band while we were driving. He went to go
Speaker 1: get his hat, and he's walking back to the car.
Speaker 1: We're on the way to the hospital. You know what
Speaker 1: I'm saying. And the officer's like, Oh, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
Speaker 1: So Dio Hughley says something that I feel bears a
Speaker 1: lot more, repeating that the most dangerous place for a
Speaker 1: black man to live is in the imagination of a
Speaker 1: white person. So this is not just police officers, but
Speaker 1: this includes you know, your Karens and your people that
Speaker 1: call the police on black people for just existing being
Speaker 1: black and close enough to your comfort zone. Somehow, we've
Speaker 1: been marketed in such a way that we are always
Speaker 1: the threat when and I don't I don't want to
Speaker 1: pretend like we don't live in a reality where wealth
Speaker 1: inequality shapes outcomes and some people who feel like crime
Speaker 1: is their only option to take that path.
Speaker 2: Right, it's not because they're black, No, it's because of
Speaker 2: wealth and equality, false equivalence.
Speaker 1: Right. But the fact is, I've been robbed by white people,
Speaker 1: Black people, the Mexican people, everybody that I've ever lived around.
Speaker 1: They all crimes at large. We all have right.
Speaker 2: It's exactly entirely different conversations.
Speaker 1: But the narrative that has been chronicled largely in this country,
Speaker 1: especially in as far as white folks are concerned, is
Speaker 1: that black people are to be feared. And so again
Speaker 1: the idea of us living in the imagination of white
Speaker 1: folks being the most dangerous place for us to live.
Speaker 1: It plays true in my story, and certainly, as you mentioned,
Speaker 1: we consume this professionally so that we can, you know,
Speaker 1: discuss really systems that exist and bring them to life
Speaker 1: with examples, because this isn't just an isolated incident. We're
Speaker 1: not picking on Mike Parson. We're talking about systems and
Speaker 1: people like this and people like Donald Trump and people
Speaker 1: like you know. That list goes on and on. They
Speaker 1: get elected and they quote unquote do the will of
Speaker 1: the people.
Speaker 2: And I think it's important to highlight before we move on,
Speaker 2: the prosecuting attorney who got this black man convicted was
Speaker 2: a part of the team saying, hey, we got this
Speaker 2: one wrong, we got this one wrong, and we probably
Speaker 2: shouldn't execute this person, because not only is there some
Speaker 2: benefit of the doubt here, the DNA present isn't his,
Speaker 2: the hair present isn't his. The footprints present don't belong
Speaker 2: to him, the husband or the wife. This same governor
Speaker 2: who sought in his heart and all of his grace
Speaker 2: and mercy to parton the white officer who he knows
Speaker 2: for sure killed the black man in his driveway here,
Speaker 2: could not find it in his heart to just make
Speaker 2: sure that the state didn't execute a man who it
Speaker 2: was most likely not only didn't deserve to die, but
Speaker 2: did not commit the crime. That's important because it's not
Speaker 2: saying this guy committed this crime but doesn't deserve to die.
Speaker 1: No, no, no, no.
Speaker 2: The evidence is saying that, most likely this guy didn't
Speaker 2: even do it. Right, But we're going to pardon the
Speaker 2: guy that we know did do it.
Speaker 1: And man, that's that's a lot to live with. But yeah,
Speaker 1: you're right. There are systems, but there are also people,
Speaker 1: and sometimes they work together.