WEBVTT - #212 Jason Flom with Curtis Flowers 0:00:02.440 --> 0:00:05.600 Curtis Flowers lived in the small town of Winona, Mississippi, 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:08.920 and began a job at Tarti Furniture, but while transporting 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:11.360 some car batteries, two of them fell off his truck, 0:00:11.440 --> 0:00:14.320 and store owner Bertha Tarti said that the damages might 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:16.720 have to come out of his paycheck. After a full 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:19.239 day of work, Curtis decided to cut his losses and 0:00:19.360 --> 0:00:23.160 move on. On the morning of July sixteenth, nineteen ninety six, 0:00:23.239 --> 0:00:26.640 the bodies of Bertha Tarti and three employees were found shot. 0:00:27.040 --> 0:00:30.120 One was still alive rushed to the hospital, but later 0:00:30.160 --> 0:00:35.120 pronounced dead. After hearing about the allegedly disgruntled Curtis Flowers, 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:38.239 police used a toxic mix of a cash reward and 0:00:38.320 --> 0:00:42.720 intimidation to extract witness statements, widely varying in detail. They 0:00:42.760 --> 0:00:47.159 pieced together a ridiculous narrative of Curtis's whereabouts, including a 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:50.479 dubious story about a gun that his uncle had reported missing. 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:54.560 With this flimsy motive and even flimsier evidence, along with 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:59.040 racially discriminatory jury selection, Curtis Flowers was first tried and 0:00:59.160 --> 0:01:03.639 convicted of attorney's murder. While that conviction was being thrown out. 0:01:03.680 --> 0:01:05.760 He was convicted for the murder of one of the 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:09.399 other employees, and when the second conviction was thrown out, 0:01:09.560 --> 0:01:13.200 they tried him again for all four murders. After six 0:01:13.319 --> 0:01:15.800 trials and a trip to the Supreme Court, this farce 0:01:15.840 --> 0:01:18.520 would finally come to an end when American Public Media 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:21.520 made a podcast called in the Dark Shining Up Bright 0:01:21.600 --> 0:01:25.039 Light on Curtis's case and the racist district attorney driving it. 0:01:25.360 --> 0:01:28.520 After twenty three long years on death row and another 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:32.160 trip to the Supreme Court, district Attorney Doug Evans finally 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:35.800 stepped off the case. Upon review, the Attorney General of 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:53.520 Mississippi dropped all charges. This is wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:57.040 Welcome back to wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. And I'm 0:01:57.040 --> 0:01:59.040 going to throw a few numbers at you before I 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:04.400 introduce our guests. So Curtis Flowers was wrongfully convicted six times, 0:02:04.960 --> 0:02:08.799 spent twenty three years on death row for four murders 0:02:08.800 --> 0:02:11.760 that he didn't commit. Curtis Flowers, Welcome to wrongful Conviction. 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:14.520 Good to be here. So let's go back to the beginning. 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:17.200 You grew up in a small town in Mississippi, right. 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:22.760 Yes, one only is about eighty four miles north of Jacksonssissippi, 0:02:22.880 --> 0:02:26.840 a small town about the population of five thousand, over 0:02:27.000 --> 0:02:28.200 forty five percent black. 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:33.320 Did you have a happy childhood? Yes, I did. Brothers, sisters, brothers. 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:37.040 I have four sisters, one brother. I'm the I guess 0:02:37.040 --> 0:02:38.400 you'd call the middle child. 0:02:38.680 --> 0:02:44.400 So everything was pretty much fine, I guess up until 0:02:44.960 --> 0:02:48.239 would seemed like a very minor incident at a store 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:50.200 that you only worked at for a few days. I'm 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:53.960 talking about Tardy Furniture, which should have come and went 0:02:54.280 --> 0:03:01.040 and never been a subject of even one little minor discussion. True. Nonetheless, 0:03:01.080 --> 0:03:04.600 since it was the incident that started this crazy chain 0:03:04.639 --> 0:03:06.799 of events going, can you just tell us what happened 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:07.919 at Tarti Furniture. 0:03:08.280 --> 0:03:11.600 Well, I went to work at Tarti's one morning and 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:14.639 she asked me to pull around back so then the 0:03:14.720 --> 0:03:17.680 business next door could load some batteries onto the truck 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:21.840 and leaving. I pulled off, and two of the batteries 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:23.519 slid off the truck. I got back to the store, 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:25.600 I told her about them. She said, we'll take them 0:03:25.600 --> 0:03:27.280 back around there and let me see if they can 0:03:27.360 --> 0:03:28.040 replace them. 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:29.360 Because if they. 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:31.680 Can't, then you don't have to pay for them, because 0:03:31.680 --> 0:03:34.480 she should have tied them down. And I said, okay, 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:38.040 So I took them back. Mister Jimmy Sanders, who worked there, 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:41.400 told me that we'll work it out. So I went 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:44.280 back and told her everything was good. You know, she 0:03:44.320 --> 0:03:47.560 sent me home to deliver furniture all day that day, 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:49.440 you know, by me just starting. You know, she even 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:52.000 advanced me. I think it was thirty dollars. 0:03:52.160 --> 0:03:54.320 You didn't go back to work at the store after that, No, 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:56.080 I didn't. It's okay, fine, whatever. 0:03:56.440 --> 0:04:00.840 And later it became a motive, right, like this little 0:04:00.920 --> 0:04:03.080 minor incident was going to cause you to go back 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:04.640 and shoot four people in the head. 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:10.240 So now, unbeknownst to you, a terrible, terrible thing happens 0:04:10.320 --> 0:04:13.880 right at Tarti Furnish On the morning of July sixteenth, 0:04:13.920 --> 0:04:17.200 nineteen ninety six. Sam Jones Junior, a retired employee of 0:04:17.279 --> 0:04:20.599 Tarti Furniture Company, reported that the owner of Bertha Tarti, 0:04:20.640 --> 0:04:22.640 who was fifty nine, had called him at nine am, 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:24.520 asking him to come into the store to train a 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:27.880 couple of new employees. A guy named Derek Bobo Stewart 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:30.280 of sixteen and Robert Golden, a forty two yar old man. 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:34.200 Jones arrived an hour later and found a horror scene. 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:38.800 He found that Tarti, Stuart, Golden, and another employee named 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:41.320 Carmen Rigby, a forty five year old woman, had all 0:04:41.360 --> 0:04:43.800 been shot and killed. Well one of them, sixteen year 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:46.560 old mister Stuart, was the only one still alive, but 0:04:46.600 --> 0:04:48.560 he died in the hospital a few days later, and 0:04:48.600 --> 0:04:51.160 supposedly two hundred and eighty seven dollars was missing from 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:53.080 the cash reder. So that gives me the chills because 0:04:53.120 --> 0:04:54.840 it's just what's the price of a life? And may 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:57.880 they rest in peace. So it's just this crazy coincidence. 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:00.839 The smallest town like that, you know that you happened 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:04.599 to previously work and even the fact that you worked 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:07.520 there at one time really shouldn't have set off too 0:05:07.560 --> 0:05:10.920 many alarm bells. Maybe somebody would have quickly looked into 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:15.120 it and ruled you out exactly, But this wasn't just anybody, right. 0:05:15.200 --> 0:05:19.039 What we're talking about is you ran into the crosshairs 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:22.520 of District Attorney Doug Evans. Then they covered this in 0:05:22.600 --> 0:05:25.200 this fantastic podcast, which I'm sure some of our listeners 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:27.719 have heard called in the Dark. Thought it was brilliantly done. 0:05:27.800 --> 0:05:29.680 Let me just say that one of the things that 0:05:29.760 --> 0:05:33.840 jumps out to me from the podcast about Doug Evans 0:05:33.960 --> 0:05:37.719 was that an analysis by APM for the podcast discovered 0:05:37.720 --> 0:05:40.919 that Evans and his assistant DA's over the course of 0:05:40.960 --> 0:05:45.360 twenty six years struck black prospective jurors at nearly four 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:47.720 and a half times the rate they struck white ones. 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:49.320 And of course we know that's one of the main 0:05:49.400 --> 0:05:52.000 reasons why your conviction kept getting overturned, because he kept 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:55.200 excluding black jurors from the jurys, which is of course 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:57.799 a violation of the fourteenth Amendment. This is a guy 0:05:58.000 --> 0:06:01.880 who was elected again in November twenty nineteen, so he's 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:05.440 been in there forever still the DA, but numerous civil 0:06:05.520 --> 0:06:09.120 rights lawsuits have been filed against him. But according to 0:06:09.160 --> 0:06:12.200 the Mississippi Bar Association, it's hard to believe he's received 0:06:12.279 --> 0:06:16.240 no public sanction and remains a lawyer in good standing. 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:18.920 So let's let's go back. Let's go back. Hold on, 0:06:19.040 --> 0:06:23.000 So the crime took place on July sixteenth, nineteen ninety six, 0:06:23.279 --> 0:06:24.880 When did you even hear about it? 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:28.320 The same day they come by the house, want to 0:06:28.360 --> 0:06:30.279 know if they could talk with me. They say to 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:32.279 her that I used to work there and maybe I 0:06:32.279 --> 0:06:34.600 could help them. You know, maybe I've seen something and 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:37.360 don't realize us I saw it, and I said sure. 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:40.200 I went down with him until you know, every time 0:06:40.240 --> 0:06:43.080 I left. You know what we talked about here today, 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:45.560 don't don't tell anyone else. And we would just want 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:48.039 you to know you're not a suspect. We just we 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:49.560 just thought maybe you could help. 0:06:49.440 --> 0:06:49.599 You know. 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:52.440 So I said, okay, But everyone on the street was 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:54.960 telling me that when they talked with him, they said 0:06:54.960 --> 0:06:55.960 I was a suspect. 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:58.880 They tested your hands for gunshot wresid. 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:01.080 Testing my hands for gunshot rest to do the morning 0:07:01.120 --> 0:07:03.560 they picked me up, I wanted to question me. They 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:08.760 wanted to rule me out, so he said, and I agreed, 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:14.480 and I agreed to a gunshot residue tests and they 0:07:14.480 --> 0:07:17.240 gave it to me. And later they come back and 0:07:17.320 --> 0:07:21.960 said they I think one particle of gunshot residue. You know, 0:07:21.960 --> 0:07:25.040 I don't know anything about residue. But my lawyer argued 0:07:25.080 --> 0:07:28.360 that there are three elements to gunshot residue. You can't 0:07:28.400 --> 0:07:33.880 have one without the other two. And he asked them, well, 0:07:34.000 --> 0:07:36.840 how did miss Flower get to the police station and 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:38.800 I got down there, would stayed true, he says, in't 0:07:38.800 --> 0:07:41.360 it true? They fired their weapons every morning and miss 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:43.840 Flowers shook hands with them, so he could have picked 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:45.080 up that particle just. 0:07:45.040 --> 0:07:47.360 Like that, or could have come from a firework. No, 0:07:47.480 --> 0:07:50.200 And we have a whole episode of our show for 0:07:50.320 --> 0:07:53.680 conviction John Science devoted to a gunshot residue issue out 0:07:54.000 --> 0:07:57.560 There are literally dozens of substances that could, you know, 0:07:57.800 --> 0:08:00.200 sort of fool the test, you know, and that all 0:08:00.200 --> 0:08:03.080 has to be independently corroborated or else it's just junk science. 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:06.040 Yes, and I even heard that you could get that 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:09.160 from just just messing with a car battery. 0:08:09.000 --> 0:08:12.440 Car battery, cigarette, ash drive urine. 0:08:12.160 --> 0:08:14.559 Or also giving you a gunshot of rether do tests 0:08:14.760 --> 0:08:17.240 and he don't have one gloves right, and he's handling 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:18.920 your hands while he's doing it. 0:08:19.080 --> 0:08:22.960 Sure it's transferable. Yeah, So that's the flimsiest of flimsy 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:26.800 evidence that you could have not evident is the wrong word, 0:08:26.840 --> 0:08:30.480 but they call it evidence. I call it bullshit. Okay, 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:33.920 So your prints were not found at the crime scene, 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:38.800 and your clothes they took your clothes, right, clothes went 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:41.880 to the crime lab and turned up nothing, nothing right, 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:47.640 So are you a ghost? You don't see what? Not 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:51.040 a ghost? Okay? So at that point maybe reasonable people 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:53.360 could agree that they could have started looking for the 0:08:53.400 --> 0:08:57.080 actual perpetrator, but they continued on. Now at the scene, 0:08:57.080 --> 0:08:59.880 three footprints from size ten and a half feel a 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:03.520 gym shoes were later discovered. And don't even get me 0:09:03.559 --> 0:09:07.040 started on footprint analysis because that's a whole other junk science. 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:10.400 And there was no paper money, only changing the cashhers again, 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:12.640 supposedly two hundred eighty seven dollars was missing. At least 0:09:12.640 --> 0:09:15.280 found five shellcasings at the scene, which were from a 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:19.160 three eighty caliber semi automatic pistol. They also found two 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:22.200 spent bullets, two bullet fragments, and one live bullet. Now 0:09:22.240 --> 0:09:25.840 have you ever owned a three eighty caliber semi automatic pistol? Okay? 0:09:25.880 --> 0:09:29.400 So now enter Doyle Simpson. Doyle Simpson was your uncle. 0:09:29.480 --> 0:09:32.960 He reported that a pistol of this same type in 0:09:33.040 --> 0:09:35.959 caliber had been stolen from his car in the parking 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:39.160 lot of the Angelica Garment factory where he worked. So 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:43.760 he now came under suspicion. On July twenty second, nineteen 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:47.000 ninety six, Simpson took a polygraph test that revealed deception 0:09:47.200 --> 0:09:49.040 when he said that his gun had been stolen from 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:50.920 his car and when he said he knew nothing about 0:09:50.960 --> 0:09:54.720 the murders. Again, we know polygraphs are not super accurate, 0:09:54.800 --> 0:09:58.800 but they can give you some indication. But we should 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:02.200 not take a polygraph as just gospel, because it's not. 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:05.079 But according to the polygraph and the poligapher, he lied 0:10:05.080 --> 0:10:07.480 about where he got the gun, and police later discovered 0:10:07.480 --> 0:10:10.120 that he called his brother asking him to lie to 0:10:10.160 --> 0:10:13.040 the police as well, telling them that he had sold 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:15.679 the gun to Simpson, but the brother refused. 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:18.120 It was later found out that he did a lot 0:10:18.280 --> 0:10:21.320 about his swhere about that morning of those murder dog 0:10:21.320 --> 0:10:23.800 claimed he was at work all morning. His own sister 0:10:23.920 --> 0:10:26.760 said she saw his car we out on eighty two. 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:28.600 She saw him drive by that morning. 0:10:28.840 --> 0:10:30.839 Well, I can think of a couple of reasons why 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:32.880 that could be. One would be that he wanted to 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:35.560 deflect this vision away from him because he was actually guilty. 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:37.240 Or the other would be that he just was trying 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:39.440 to like not be any part of this and so 0:10:39.640 --> 0:10:41.280 was making up a story that he was at work 0:10:41.360 --> 0:10:44.440 just to try to throw the police off even looking 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:47.400 further into him. That was my first thought. So Simpson 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:50.160 went on to tell the cops that he practiced shooting 0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:53.520 this gun in a rural spot. But a detective went 0:10:53.559 --> 0:10:56.480 to that location and pulled the spent plug from a post, 0:10:56.720 --> 0:10:59.600 and according to firearms expert for the Michigan State Police, 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:02.920 David Bolish, testified that he determined that the bullet from 0:11:02.960 --> 0:11:06.079 the post actually did have marking similar to the bullets 0:11:06.080 --> 0:11:08.800 recovered from the crime scene. In August of ninety six, 0:11:09.200 --> 0:11:13.640 detectives led by the DA investigator John Johnson questioned mister 0:11:13.679 --> 0:11:16.880 Simpson about their findings, but again he denied his involvement 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:19.200 and maintained that the gun had been stolen from the 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:23.040 car that morning. So despite the fact that there are 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:28.760 like flashing arrows now pointing towards Simpson right, they continued 0:11:28.800 --> 0:11:32.959 to focus on you. And now they discovered a box 0:11:33.720 --> 0:11:36.400 of size ten and a half Feel of shoes at 0:11:36.440 --> 0:11:37.920 your girlfriend, Connie's house. 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:42.320 I later found out that my girlfriend at the time, Connie, 0:11:42.559 --> 0:11:46.199 had bought her son Marcus, a pair of Feel of 0:11:46.240 --> 0:11:48.920 shoes size ten and a half, And then that's how 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:50.960 they led up to me wearing a pair of ten 0:11:51.000 --> 0:11:52.400 and a half Fela. 0:11:52.440 --> 0:11:54.360 Do you wear a size ten and a half feel 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:55.080 a shoe. 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:56.640 Most shoes, I wear eleven and a half your shoe, 0:11:57.000 --> 0:11:59.079 but in gym shoes, I can't wear eleven. 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:02.440 Well, anybody who's ever worn a shoe that's a half 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:04.720 to a full size too small can report that is 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:09.360 not very uncomfortable. So I think it's unlikely that those 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:12.599 were your shoes under any circumstances. And I'm going to 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:15.560 say too that feelers were pretty stylish back in the 0:12:15.760 --> 0:12:20.040 late nineties. They were okay. So most of the people 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:23.720 who were questioned later on reported, and this will surprise 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:27.600 exactly no one, they reported that they were afraid of 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:30.959 being arrested themselves unless they cooperated with the police, and 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:35.120 some said that rewards of up to thirty thousand dollars 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:37.960 were dangled in front of them if they agreed to cooperate. 0:12:38.280 --> 0:12:41.080 So they were using the carrot and tostick. So they eventually, 0:12:41.200 --> 0:12:44.400 not surprisingly, got statements from a dozen different witnesses who 0:12:44.400 --> 0:12:48.199 said they saw you in various locations in and around 0:12:48.280 --> 0:12:50.800 why Nona on the morning of the crime. And based 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:56.760 on these statements, which were almost certainly fabricated and coerced, 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:00.000 and rewarded. Right when you put the third down dollar 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:00.720 reward out. 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:02.840 People that didn't even know me knew me then, and 0:13:02.920 --> 0:13:05.000 everybody saw me here and there. I'd have to be 0:13:05.120 --> 0:13:08.559 superman to be in all those places around the same 0:13:08.600 --> 0:13:12.720 time and dressed differently, right, yes, each witness described me 0:13:12.760 --> 0:13:13.640 wearing something. 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:17.280 Different, but based on all these crazy statements that they 0:13:17.280 --> 0:13:19.679 had to try to piece together. And I've seen the 0:13:19.720 --> 0:13:22.040 map that shows your movements on that morning, like I 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:24.079 think I saw it in sixty minutes or something. It's like, 0:13:25.120 --> 0:13:27.920 it's so ridiculous. You were zigzagging all over town, according 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:31.559 to in all different clothes. So they developed this crazy 0:13:31.600 --> 0:13:34.840 theory that motivated by the anger of this loss of 0:13:34.880 --> 0:13:39.320 this fantastic tardy furniture delivery job that you had, that 0:13:39.480 --> 0:13:44.560 you had walked all over town, stole Simpson's gun, walked home, 0:13:44.920 --> 0:13:48.600 walked back across town, shot it, killed the four victims, 0:13:48.920 --> 0:13:52.360 robbed the cash register, and then just tootled your way 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:55.200 back home, my way. Not a care, not a cure 0:13:55.240 --> 0:13:57.760 in the world. Right now, we have to fast forward 0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:02.640 all the way. Sid January third teenth, nineteen ninety seven, Plano, Texas. 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:05.520 So you moved to Plano Texas right yes, with your 0:14:05.520 --> 0:14:09.319 girlfriend MSUs Connie Moore. What happened that the time I. 0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:12.960 Was working from three to eleven and I got up 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:15.719 to fix myself some lunch. There was a knock at 0:14:15.720 --> 0:14:17.839 the door, and right before I grabbed the door, I 0:14:17.840 --> 0:14:20.120 saw a movement you know, out the pat of your door. 0:14:20.280 --> 0:14:22.600 And you know it's what they call runners, you know 0:14:22.720 --> 0:14:24.720 who just in case you run. You know, they got 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:27.920 guys set up to chase. So I opened the door 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:30.080 and he said how are you doing? I said, I'm 0:14:30.120 --> 0:14:30.560 doing okay. 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:31.120 How are you, sir? 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:35.800 And he said I'm looking for Curtis Flowers. I said 0:14:35.800 --> 0:14:38.560 that would be me, And before I could say anything else, 0:14:38.600 --> 0:14:39.960 I was all against the wall. 0:14:40.120 --> 0:14:41.680 I'm talking about sheet. 0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:45.480 Rock mood upside my full head being cuffed and I said, 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:48.320 may I ask why am I being arrested? He said, well, 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:50.880 we have a warrant for your arrest back in Mississippi 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:52.840 for four counts of captain murder. 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:05.640 This episode is underwritten by Paul Weiss, Rifkin, Porton and Garrison, 0:15:05.800 --> 0:15:09.320 a leading international law firm. Paul Weiss has long had 0:15:09.360 --> 0:15:13.640 an unwavering commitment to providing impactful pro bono legal assistance 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:16.200 to the most vulnerable members of our society and in 0:15:16.240 --> 0:15:20.000 support of the public interest, including extensive work in the 0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:21.200 criminal justice area. 0:15:29.720 --> 0:15:32.120 They took me back to the Mississippi where I was 0:15:32.240 --> 0:15:35.080 put in jail in Lafour County, and that's where I 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:38.040 sat until I went to trial in October of ninety seven. 0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:41.440 So you get charged with four counts of capital murder. 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:44.520 Let's go to trial number one. Hard to believe that 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:47.120 you had six damn trials. I mean, that's not a 0:15:47.160 --> 0:15:49.400 record that I think you ever wanted to hold or set. 0:15:49.440 --> 0:15:52.360 And it was not the winning So the first trial, 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:55.240 they only tried you for one of the murder's birth Attartey, 0:15:55.320 --> 0:15:57.320 So I know your attorney had tried to combine them 0:15:57.400 --> 0:15:59.960 right into one case, but of course that was denied. 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:03.040 Everything he tried was denied pretty much. So the trial 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:07.320 was moved to Lee County and the jury was get 0:16:07.400 --> 0:16:11.320 ready all wait. Now, from what I understand, it was 0:16:11.320 --> 0:16:14.080 moved to Lee County because of extensive media coverage. Is 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:15.800 that your understanding? That's what I heard. 0:16:15.960 --> 0:16:18.720 And then they claimed that I couldn't get a fair 0:16:18.760 --> 0:16:21.400 trial in my own hometown. Keep in mind, I went 0:16:21.480 --> 0:16:25.760 on it is forty five black What about Lee. I 0:16:25.760 --> 0:16:28.760 don't know the population there, but the blacks that were there, 0:16:29.000 --> 0:16:32.040 they didn't get on the juror. So it's due in 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:34.680 his trial tactics, you know, right. 0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:37.720 And those are called peremptory challenges, right, which is the 0:16:37.880 --> 0:16:41.760 technical term for defendants or lawyer's objection to a proposed juror, 0:16:41.760 --> 0:16:43.960 which is made without needing to give a reason. But 0:16:44.080 --> 0:16:47.880 it is illegal to exclude jurors because of their race. Yes, 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:50.960 so they had plenty of black jurors to choose from, 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:52.960 they just didn't choose to put any of them on 0:16:53.000 --> 0:16:57.760 your jury exactly. So now magically the prosecution had found 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:00.680 two more witnesses, and we hear this again and again 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:04.359 right on this show. These are incentivized jail house nitches, 0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:09.000 Frederick Veal and Maurice Hawkins. And they both testified that 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:12.959 you were their cellmate while you were waiting trial, and 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:16.560 that you admitted to committing the crime. So jail house nitches, 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:20.280 they are the most unreliable witnesses of all because they're 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:23.640 all incentivized, and sometimes they lie about being incentivized while 0:17:23.640 --> 0:17:26.880 they're lying about overhearing these magical confessions. Right. So both 0:17:26.920 --> 0:17:29.840 of these two guys later recanted, We're just going to 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:31.960 speculate that they may have gotten whatever they were going 0:17:32.040 --> 0:17:34.359 to get, they got reduced senses that got rewarded in 0:17:34.400 --> 0:17:37.560 some way. So now we get to Patricia Hallman, who 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:40.919 was a neighbor of yours, and she testified that on 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:43.840 the morning of the crime, around seven thirty am, she 0:17:44.200 --> 0:17:47.199 saw you going into your house in a rage. I 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:49.600 can just picture her making up this story, okay. And 0:17:49.760 --> 0:17:53.719 other witnesses testified to seeing you at various times that morning, 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:57.639 including Catherine Snow, who claimed that she saw you leaning 0:17:57.680 --> 0:18:01.800 against the car outside the factory where Simpson worked. Clemmy 0:18:01.920 --> 0:18:04.960 Fleming testified that she got a ride home from Roy 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:07.280 Harris to go make a payment at Tardy Furniture, but 0:18:07.320 --> 0:18:09.320 she said she didn't go in because she was pregnant 0:18:09.359 --> 0:18:12.000 and feeling sick, so Harris drove her home. Now, why 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:14.639 does that matter, because she said she saw you running 0:18:14.680 --> 0:18:18.879 away from the store, and Harris said he also saw 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:22.560 someone running but only thought it was you because Fleming said, 0:18:22.600 --> 0:18:27.440 so this web is getting deep and deeper. So now 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:30.800 comes Jack Matthews, an investigator for the Mississippi Highway State Patrol, 0:18:30.880 --> 0:18:34.679 who testified that based on a ledger sheet at Tardy Furniture, 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:37.320 two hundred eighty seven dollars was missing from the cash straw. Now, 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:39.879 they then came up with a theory, the two hundred 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:42.280 and fifty five dollars that was found in Connie's home 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:44.639 your girlfriend was the same money that was missing for 0:18:44.720 --> 0:18:47.640 the furniture store. Amazing, because no one else had two 0:18:47.720 --> 0:18:50.360 hundred dollars in it must have been the same two 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:50.960 hundred dollars. 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:53.560 And I thought that was so crazy. Is she not 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:54.879 allowed to save money? 0:18:55.280 --> 0:18:57.960 I mean, I imagine most people in town had a little 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:00.240 bit of cash in their house, like they could have said, hey, thing, 0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:02.399 I agree, could have been twenty dollars. Oh, here's the 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:08.360 twenty from the store. What do you know? Amazing. I'm 0:19:08.359 --> 0:19:10.520 glad you could laugh about it because I'm about to cry. 0:19:10.800 --> 0:19:14.480 A forensic sometimes you have the lad keep him crying, Okay. Well, 0:19:14.600 --> 0:19:18.600 so then there was a forensic analyst who conducted the 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:23.640 gunshot residue test on your hands, which magically produced one particle, 0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:27.240 who testified that the residue certainly had to be from 0:19:27.240 --> 0:19:30.000 handling a gun and not anything else. So this is 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:31.919 a guy who didn't know what the fuck he was 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:35.199 talking about, because we know that that's not true. True. 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:39.160 Then Ballish testified, remember him from before, one hundred percent 0:19:39.200 --> 0:19:41.280 positive that the bullets recovered from the scene had been 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:44.000 fired from Simpson's gun. But when testified about the ten 0:19:44.080 --> 0:19:46.600 and a half size feel a box found in her home, 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:49.240 your girlfriend told the story that you had said right, 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:52.320 She had purchased for her son in November of ninety five, 0:19:52.480 --> 0:19:54.240 and that her son took them when he moved to 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:56.320 his father's in ninety six. They could have verified that 0:19:56.359 --> 0:19:59.880 if they cared exactly, you testified that he would start 0:20:00.119 --> 0:20:03.000 working at Tardi or July ninety six. What was your 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:05.280 testimony with the batteries about, Like I. 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:07.600 Told them, she sent me around to I think it 0:20:07.640 --> 0:20:11.080 was a tasko at the time who sold her the batteries. Now, 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:13.439 my job was to just pick the batteries up and 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:16.840 take them out to the country club, and they were 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:18.840 going to put them on the golf carts. But you know, 0:20:18.920 --> 0:20:21.920 pulling off from a tasko to the battery slid out. 0:20:22.560 --> 0:20:25.600 He hit the payment and one was leaking the other one. 0:20:26.000 --> 0:20:28.399 There was nothing wrong with the battery other than you know, 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:31.800 the ages got danged up on the concrete, and she said, well, 0:20:31.880 --> 0:20:34.280 just take them back around there and I'm gonna call 0:20:34.320 --> 0:20:35.840 and see if they give me some type of deal 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:38.720 on them or replace them. If they can't, then you debt. 0:20:38.720 --> 0:20:40.680 I have to come out of your pain. I said, 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:42.960 I have no problem with that, because I was you right. 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:46.159 I spoke to time down no offense. But that's a 0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:49.800 boring ass story. I mean, yes it is. 0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:52.760 And it wasn't the only boring part of your day, 0:20:52.760 --> 0:20:55.160 because on the day of the crime, you also testified 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:58.480