1 00:00:02,440 --> 00:00:05,600 Speaker 1: Curtis Flowers lived in the small town of Winona, Mississippi, 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,920 Speaker 1: and began a job at Tarti Furniture, but while transporting 3 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:11,360 Speaker 1: some car batteries, two of them fell off his truck, 4 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 1: and store owner Bertha Tarti said that the damages might 5 00:00:14,360 --> 00:00:16,720 Speaker 1: have to come out of his paycheck. After a full 6 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: day of work, Curtis decided to cut his losses and 7 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:23,160 Speaker 1: move on. On the morning of July sixteenth, nineteen ninety six, 8 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,640 Speaker 1: the bodies of Bertha Tarti and three employees were found shot. 9 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: One was still alive rushed to the hospital, but later 10 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: pronounced dead. After hearing about the allegedly disgruntled Curtis Flowers, 11 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,239 Speaker 1: police used a toxic mix of a cash reward and 12 00:00:38,320 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: intimidation to extract witness statements, widely varying in detail. They 13 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: pieced together a ridiculous narrative of Curtis's whereabouts, including a 14 00:00:47,240 --> 00:00:50,479 Speaker 1: dubious story about a gun that his uncle had reported missing. 15 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,560 Speaker 1: With this flimsy motive and even flimsier evidence, along with 16 00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 1: racially discriminatory jury selection, Curtis Flowers was first tried and 17 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:03,639 Speaker 1: convicted of attorney's murder. While that conviction was being thrown out. 18 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: He was convicted for the murder of one of the 19 00:01:05,840 --> 00:01:09,399 Speaker 1: other employees, and when the second conviction was thrown out, 20 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: they tried him again for all four murders. After six 21 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:15,800 Speaker 1: trials and a trip to the Supreme Court, this farce 22 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: would finally come to an end when American Public Media 23 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: made a podcast called in the Dark Shining Up Bright 24 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: Light on Curtis's case and the racist district attorney driving it. 25 00:01:25,360 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: After twenty three long years on death row and another 26 00:01:28,600 --> 00:01:32,160 Speaker 1: trip to the Supreme Court, district Attorney Doug Evans finally 27 00:01:32,200 --> 00:01:35,800 Speaker 1: stepped off the case. Upon review, the Attorney General of 28 00:01:35,840 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: Mississippi dropped all charges. This is wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. 29 00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: Welcome back to wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm. And I'm 30 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,040 Speaker 1: going to throw a few numbers at you before I 31 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:04,400 Speaker 1: introduce our guests. So Curtis Flowers was wrongfully convicted six times, 32 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,799 Speaker 1: spent twenty three years on death row for four murders 33 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: that he didn't commit. Curtis Flowers, Welcome to wrongful Conviction. 34 00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: Good to be here. So let's go back to the beginning. 35 00:02:14,560 --> 00:02:17,200 Speaker 1: You grew up in a small town in Mississippi, right. 36 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:22,760 Speaker 2: Yes, one only is about eighty four miles north of Jacksonssissippi, 37 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 2: a small town about the population of five thousand, over 38 00:02:27,000 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 2: forty five percent black. 39 00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 1: Did you have a happy childhood? Yes, I did. Brothers, sisters, brothers. 40 00:02:33,320 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 2: I have four sisters, one brother. I'm the I guess 41 00:02:37,040 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 2: you'd call the middle child. 42 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 1: So everything was pretty much fine, I guess up until 43 00:02:44,960 --> 00:02:48,239 Speaker 1: would seemed like a very minor incident at a store 44 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:50,200 Speaker 1: that you only worked at for a few days. I'm 45 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 1: talking about Tardy Furniture, which should have come and went 46 00:02:54,280 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: and never been a subject of even one little minor discussion. True. Nonetheless, 47 00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: since it was the incident that started this crazy chain 48 00:03:04,639 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 1: of events going, can you just tell us what happened 49 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: at Tarti Furniture. 50 00:03:08,280 --> 00:03:11,600 Speaker 2: Well, I went to work at Tarti's one morning and 51 00:03:11,800 --> 00:03:14,639 Speaker 2: she asked me to pull around back so then the 52 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 2: business next door could load some batteries onto the truck 53 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 2: and leaving. I pulled off, and two of the batteries 54 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:23,519 Speaker 2: slid off the truck. I got back to the store, 55 00:03:23,520 --> 00:03:25,600 Speaker 2: I told her about them. She said, we'll take them 56 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 2: back around there and let me see if they can 57 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 2: replace them. 58 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:29,360 Speaker 1: Because if they. 59 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 2: Can't, then you don't have to pay for them, because 60 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 2: she should have tied them down. And I said, okay, 61 00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:38,040 Speaker 2: So I took them back. Mister Jimmy Sanders, who worked there, 62 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 2: told me that we'll work it out. So I went 63 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:44,280 Speaker 2: back and told her everything was good. You know, she 64 00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 2: sent me home to deliver furniture all day that day, 65 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 2: you know, by me just starting. You know, she even 66 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 2: advanced me. I think it was thirty dollars. 67 00:03:52,160 --> 00:03:54,320 Speaker 1: You didn't go back to work at the store after that, No, 68 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:56,080 Speaker 1: I didn't. It's okay, fine, whatever. 69 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 2: And later it became a motive, right, like this little 70 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 2: minor incident was going to cause you to go back 71 00:04:03,120 --> 00:04:04,640 Speaker 2: and shoot four people in the head. 72 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: So now, unbeknownst to you, a terrible, terrible thing happens 73 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:13,880 Speaker 1: right at Tarti Furnish On the morning of July sixteenth, 74 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,200 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety six. Sam Jones Junior, a retired employee of 75 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 1: Tarti Furniture Company, reported that the owner of Bertha Tarti, 76 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:22,640 Speaker 1: who was fifty nine, had called him at nine am, 77 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:24,520 Speaker 1: asking him to come into the store to train a 78 00:04:24,560 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 1: couple of new employees. A guy named Derek Bobo Stewart 79 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 1: of sixteen and Robert Golden, a forty two yar old man. 80 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:34,200 Speaker 1: Jones arrived an hour later and found a horror scene. 81 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: He found that Tarti, Stuart, Golden, and another employee named 82 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: Carmen Rigby, a forty five year old woman, had all 83 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 1: been shot and killed. Well one of them, sixteen year 84 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 1: old mister Stuart, was the only one still alive, but 85 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: he died in the hospital a few days later, and 86 00:04:48,600 --> 00:04:51,160 Speaker 1: supposedly two hundred and eighty seven dollars was missing from 87 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:53,080 Speaker 1: the cash reder. So that gives me the chills because 88 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:54,840 Speaker 1: it's just what's the price of a life? And may 89 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:57,880 Speaker 1: they rest in peace. So it's just this crazy coincidence. 90 00:04:57,880 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 1: The smallest town like that, you know that you happened 91 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: to previously work and even the fact that you worked 92 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: there at one time really shouldn't have set off too 93 00:05:07,560 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 1: many alarm bells. Maybe somebody would have quickly looked into 94 00:05:10,960 --> 00:05:15,120 Speaker 1: it and ruled you out exactly, But this wasn't just anybody, right. 95 00:05:15,200 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 1: What we're talking about is you ran into the crosshairs 96 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: of District Attorney Doug Evans. Then they covered this in 97 00:05:22,600 --> 00:05:25,200 Speaker 1: this fantastic podcast, which I'm sure some of our listeners 98 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:27,719 Speaker 1: have heard called in the Dark. Thought it was brilliantly done. 99 00:05:27,800 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: Let me just say that one of the things that 100 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:33,840 Speaker 1: jumps out to me from the podcast about Doug Evans 101 00:05:33,960 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 1: was that an analysis by APM for the podcast discovered 102 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:40,919 Speaker 1: that Evans and his assistant DA's over the course of 103 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: twenty six years struck black prospective jurors at nearly four 104 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,720 Speaker 1: and a half times the rate they struck white ones. 105 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 1: And of course we know that's one of the main 106 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: reasons why your conviction kept getting overturned, because he kept 107 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: excluding black jurors from the jurys, which is of course 108 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:57,799 Speaker 1: a violation of the fourteenth Amendment. This is a guy 109 00:05:58,000 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: who was elected again in November twenty nineteen, so he's 110 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: been in there forever still the DA, but numerous civil 111 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:09,120 Speaker 1: rights lawsuits have been filed against him. But according to 112 00:06:09,160 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 1: the Mississippi Bar Association, it's hard to believe he's received 113 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 1: no public sanction and remains a lawyer in good standing. 114 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 1: So let's let's go back. Let's go back. Hold on, 115 00:06:19,040 --> 00:06:23,000 Speaker 1: So the crime took place on July sixteenth, nineteen ninety six, 116 00:06:23,279 --> 00:06:24,880 Speaker 1: When did you even hear about it? 117 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 2: The same day they come by the house, want to 118 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:30,279 Speaker 2: know if they could talk with me. They say to 119 00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:32,279 Speaker 2: her that I used to work there and maybe I 120 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:34,600 Speaker 2: could help them. You know, maybe I've seen something and 121 00:06:34,720 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 2: don't realize us I saw it, and I said sure. 122 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:40,200 Speaker 2: I went down with him until you know, every time 123 00:06:40,240 --> 00:06:43,080 Speaker 2: I left. You know what we talked about here today, 124 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 2: don't don't tell anyone else. And we would just want 125 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 2: you to know you're not a suspect. We just we 126 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 2: just thought maybe you could help. 127 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:49,599 Speaker 1: You know. 128 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 2: So I said, okay, But everyone on the street was 129 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 2: telling me that when they talked with him, they said 130 00:06:54,960 --> 00:06:55,960 Speaker 2: I was a suspect. 131 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:58,880 Speaker 1: They tested your hands for gunshot wresid. 132 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,080 Speaker 2: Testing my hands for gunshot rest to do the morning 133 00:07:01,120 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 2: they picked me up, I wanted to question me. They 134 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 2: wanted to rule me out, so he said, and I agreed, 135 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 2: and I agreed to a gunshot residue tests and they 136 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 2: gave it to me. And later they come back and 137 00:07:17,320 --> 00:07:21,960 Speaker 2: said they I think one particle of gunshot residue. You know, 138 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,040 Speaker 2: I don't know anything about residue. But my lawyer argued 139 00:07:25,080 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 2: that there are three elements to gunshot residue. You can't 140 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:33,880 Speaker 2: have one without the other two. And he asked them, well, 141 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:36,840 Speaker 2: how did miss Flower get to the police station and 142 00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 2: I got down there, would stayed true, he says, in't 143 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,360 Speaker 2: it true? They fired their weapons every morning and miss 144 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,840 Speaker 2: Flowers shook hands with them, so he could have picked 145 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:45,080 Speaker 2: up that particle just. 146 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: Like that, or could have come from a firework. No, 147 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: And we have a whole episode of our show for 148 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: conviction John Science devoted to a gunshot residue issue out 149 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,560 Speaker 1: There are literally dozens of substances that could, you know, 150 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: sort of fool the test, you know, and that all 151 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,080 Speaker 1: has to be independently corroborated or else it's just junk science. 152 00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 2: Yes, and I even heard that you could get that 153 00:08:06,160 --> 00:08:09,160 Speaker 2: from just just messing with a car battery. 154 00:08:09,000 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 1: Car battery, cigarette, ash drive urine. 155 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,559 Speaker 2: Or also giving you a gunshot of rether do tests 156 00:08:14,760 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 2: and he don't have one gloves right, and he's handling 157 00:08:17,320 --> 00:08:18,920 Speaker 2: your hands while he's doing it. 158 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,960 Speaker 1: Sure it's transferable. Yeah, So that's the flimsiest of flimsy 159 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:26,800 Speaker 1: evidence that you could have not evident is the wrong word, 160 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 1: but they call it evidence. I call it bullshit. Okay, 161 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 1: So your prints were not found at the crime scene, 162 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 1: and your clothes they took your clothes, right, clothes went 163 00:08:38,840 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: to the crime lab and turned up nothing, nothing right, 164 00:08:42,640 --> 00:08:47,640 Speaker 1: So are you a ghost? You don't see what? Not 165 00:08:47,720 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 1: a ghost? Okay? So at that point maybe reasonable people 166 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 1: could agree that they could have started looking for the 167 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: actual perpetrator, but they continued on. Now at the scene, 168 00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: three footprints from size ten and a half feel a 169 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:03,520 Speaker 1: gym shoes were later discovered. And don't even get me 170 00:09:03,559 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: started on footprint analysis because that's a whole other junk science. 171 00:09:07,080 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: And there was no paper money, only changing the cashhers again, 172 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: supposedly two hundred eighty seven dollars was missing. At least 173 00:09:12,640 --> 00:09:15,280 Speaker 1: found five shellcasings at the scene, which were from a 174 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: three eighty caliber semi automatic pistol. They also found two 175 00:09:19,160 --> 00:09:22,200 Speaker 1: spent bullets, two bullet fragments, and one live bullet. Now 176 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:25,840 Speaker 1: have you ever owned a three eighty caliber semi automatic pistol? Okay? 177 00:09:25,880 --> 00:09:29,400 Speaker 1: So now enter Doyle Simpson. Doyle Simpson was your uncle. 178 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,960 Speaker 1: He reported that a pistol of this same type in 179 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:35,959 Speaker 1: caliber had been stolen from his car in the parking 180 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,160 Speaker 1: lot of the Angelica Garment factory where he worked. So 181 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: he now came under suspicion. On July twenty second, nineteen 182 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: ninety six, Simpson took a polygraph test that revealed deception 183 00:09:47,200 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 1: when he said that his gun had been stolen from 184 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: his car and when he said he knew nothing about 185 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 1: the murders. Again, we know polygraphs are not super accurate, 186 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: but they can give you some indication. But we should 187 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:02,200 Speaker 1: not take a polygraph as just gospel, because it's not. 188 00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 1: But according to the polygraph and the poligapher, he lied 189 00:10:05,080 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 1: about where he got the gun, and police later discovered 190 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:10,120 Speaker 1: that he called his brother asking him to lie to 191 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: the police as well, telling them that he had sold 192 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:15,679 Speaker 1: the gun to Simpson, but the brother refused. 193 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 2: It was later found out that he did a lot 194 00:10:18,280 --> 00:10:21,320 Speaker 2: about his swhere about that morning of those murder dog 195 00:10:21,320 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 2: claimed he was at work all morning. His own sister 196 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:26,760 Speaker 2: said she saw his car we out on eighty two. 197 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 2: She saw him drive by that morning. 198 00:10:28,840 --> 00:10:30,839 Speaker 1: Well, I can think of a couple of reasons why 199 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 1: that could be. One would be that he wanted to 200 00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:35,560 Speaker 1: deflect this vision away from him because he was actually guilty. 201 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:37,240 Speaker 1: Or the other would be that he just was trying 202 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 1: to like not be any part of this and so 203 00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: was making up a story that he was at work 204 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 1: just to try to throw the police off even looking 205 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 1: further into him. That was my first thought. So Simpson 206 00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 1: went on to tell the cops that he practiced shooting 207 00:10:50,520 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: this gun in a rural spot. But a detective went 208 00:10:53,559 --> 00:10:56,480 Speaker 1: to that location and pulled the spent plug from a post, 209 00:10:56,720 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 1: and according to firearms expert for the Michigan State Police, 210 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: David Bolish, testified that he determined that the bullet from 211 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:06,079 Speaker 1: the post actually did have marking similar to the bullets 212 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: recovered from the crime scene. In August of ninety six, 213 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: detectives led by the DA investigator John Johnson questioned mister 214 00:11:13,679 --> 00:11:16,880 Speaker 1: Simpson about their findings, but again he denied his involvement 215 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:19,200 Speaker 1: and maintained that the gun had been stolen from the 216 00:11:19,240 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: car that morning. So despite the fact that there are 217 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:28,760 Speaker 1: like flashing arrows now pointing towards Simpson right, they continued 218 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,959 Speaker 1: to focus on you. And now they discovered a box 219 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: of size ten and a half Feel of shoes at 220 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 1: your girlfriend, Connie's house. 221 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 2: I later found out that my girlfriend at the time, Connie, 222 00:11:42,559 --> 00:11:46,199 Speaker 2: had bought her son Marcus, a pair of Feel of 223 00:11:46,240 --> 00:11:48,920 Speaker 2: shoes size ten and a half, And then that's how 224 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:50,960 Speaker 2: they led up to me wearing a pair of ten 225 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:52,400 Speaker 2: and a half Fela. 226 00:11:52,440 --> 00:11:54,360 Speaker 1: Do you wear a size ten and a half feel 227 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 1: a shoe. 228 00:11:54,800 --> 00:11:56,640 Speaker 2: Most shoes, I wear eleven and a half your shoe, 229 00:11:57,000 --> 00:11:59,079 Speaker 2: but in gym shoes, I can't wear eleven. 230 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:02,440 Speaker 1: Well, anybody who's ever worn a shoe that's a half 231 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,720 Speaker 1: to a full size too small can report that is 232 00:12:04,760 --> 00:12:09,360 Speaker 1: not very uncomfortable. So I think it's unlikely that those 233 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,599 Speaker 1: were your shoes under any circumstances. And I'm going to 234 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 1: say too that feelers were pretty stylish back in the 235 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:20,040 Speaker 1: late nineties. They were okay. So most of the people 236 00:12:20,080 --> 00:12:23,720 Speaker 1: who were questioned later on reported, and this will surprise 237 00:12:23,840 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: exactly no one, they reported that they were afraid of 238 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:30,959 Speaker 1: being arrested themselves unless they cooperated with the police, and 239 00:12:31,080 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: some said that rewards of up to thirty thousand dollars 240 00:12:35,200 --> 00:12:37,960 Speaker 1: were dangled in front of them if they agreed to cooperate. 241 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,080 Speaker 1: So they were using the carrot and tostick. So they eventually, 242 00:12:41,200 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: not surprisingly, got statements from a dozen different witnesses who 243 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,199 Speaker 1: said they saw you in various locations in and around 244 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 1: why Nona on the morning of the crime. And based 245 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: on these statements, which were almost certainly fabricated and coerced, 246 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: and rewarded. Right when you put the third down dollar 247 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:00,720 Speaker 1: reward out. 248 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:02,840 Speaker 2: People that didn't even know me knew me then, and 249 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 2: everybody saw me here and there. I'd have to be 250 00:13:05,120 --> 00:13:08,559 Speaker 2: superman to be in all those places around the same 251 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 2: time and dressed differently, right, yes, each witness described me 252 00:13:12,760 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 2: wearing something. 253 00:13:13,360 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: Different, but based on all these crazy statements that they 254 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,679 Speaker 1: had to try to piece together. And I've seen the 255 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: map that shows your movements on that morning, like I 256 00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:24,079 Speaker 1: think I saw it in sixty minutes or something. It's like, 257 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 1: it's so ridiculous. You were zigzagging all over town, according 258 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:31,559 Speaker 1: to in all different clothes. So they developed this crazy 259 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,840 Speaker 1: theory that motivated by the anger of this loss of 260 00:13:34,880 --> 00:13:39,320 Speaker 1: this fantastic tardy furniture delivery job that you had, that 261 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:44,560 Speaker 1: you had walked all over town, stole Simpson's gun, walked home, 262 00:13:44,920 --> 00:13:48,600 Speaker 1: walked back across town, shot it, killed the four victims, 263 00:13:48,920 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: robbed the cash register, and then just tootled your way 264 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:55,200 Speaker 1: back home, my way. Not a care, not a cure 265 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:57,760 Speaker 1: in the world. Right now, we have to fast forward 266 00:13:57,800 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 1: all the way. Sid January third teenth, nineteen ninety seven, Plano, Texas. 267 00:14:02,800 --> 00:14:05,520 Speaker 1: So you moved to Plano Texas right yes, with your 268 00:14:05,520 --> 00:14:09,319 Speaker 1: girlfriend MSUs Connie Moore. What happened that the time I. 269 00:14:09,320 --> 00:14:12,960 Speaker 2: Was working from three to eleven and I got up 270 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:15,719 Speaker 2: to fix myself some lunch. There was a knock at 271 00:14:15,720 --> 00:14:17,839 Speaker 2: the door, and right before I grabbed the door, I 272 00:14:17,840 --> 00:14:20,120 Speaker 2: saw a movement you know, out the pat of your door. 273 00:14:20,280 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 2: And you know it's what they call runners, you know 274 00:14:22,720 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 2: who just in case you run. You know, they got 275 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,920 Speaker 2: guys set up to chase. So I opened the door 276 00:14:27,960 --> 00:14:30,080 Speaker 2: and he said how are you doing? I said, I'm 277 00:14:30,120 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 2: doing okay. 278 00:14:30,560 --> 00:14:31,120 Speaker 1: How are you, sir? 279 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 2: And he said I'm looking for Curtis Flowers. I said 280 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,560 Speaker 2: that would be me, And before I could say anything else, 281 00:14:38,600 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 2: I was all against the wall. 282 00:14:40,120 --> 00:14:41,680 Speaker 1: I'm talking about sheet. 283 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 2: Rock mood upside my full head being cuffed and I said, 284 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 2: may I ask why am I being arrested? He said, well, 285 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 2: we have a warrant for your arrest back in Mississippi 286 00:14:51,040 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 2: for four counts of captain murder. 287 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:05,640 Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by Paul Weiss, Rifkin, Porton and Garrison, 288 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:09,320 Speaker 1: a leading international law firm. Paul Weiss has long had 289 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: an unwavering commitment to providing impactful pro bono legal assistance 290 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,200 Speaker 1: to the most vulnerable members of our society and in 291 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: support of the public interest, including extensive work in the 292 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 1: criminal justice area. 293 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 2: They took me back to the Mississippi where I was 294 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,080 Speaker 2: put in jail in Lafour County, and that's where I 295 00:15:35,120 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 2: sat until I went to trial in October of ninety seven. 296 00:15:38,560 --> 00:15:41,440 Speaker 1: So you get charged with four counts of capital murder. 297 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 1: Let's go to trial number one. Hard to believe that 298 00:15:44,560 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 1: you had six damn trials. I mean, that's not a 299 00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: record that I think you ever wanted to hold or set. 300 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 1: And it was not the winning So the first trial, 301 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:55,240 Speaker 1: they only tried you for one of the murder's birth Attartey, 302 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:57,320 Speaker 1: So I know your attorney had tried to combine them 303 00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:59,960 Speaker 1: right into one case, but of course that was denied. 304 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: Everything he tried was denied pretty much. So the trial 305 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: was moved to Lee County and the jury was get 306 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: ready all wait. Now, from what I understand, it was 307 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 1: moved to Lee County because of extensive media coverage. Is 308 00:16:14,120 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: that your understanding? That's what I heard. 309 00:16:15,960 --> 00:16:18,720 Speaker 2: And then they claimed that I couldn't get a fair 310 00:16:18,760 --> 00:16:21,400 Speaker 2: trial in my own hometown. Keep in mind, I went 311 00:16:21,480 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 2: on it is forty five black What about Lee. I 312 00:16:25,760 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 2: don't know the population there, but the blacks that were there, 313 00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:32,040 Speaker 2: they didn't get on the juror. So it's due in 314 00:16:32,080 --> 00:16:34,680 Speaker 2: his trial tactics, you know, right. 315 00:16:34,560 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: And those are called peremptory challenges, right, which is the 316 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,760 Speaker 1: technical term for defendants or lawyer's objection to a proposed juror, 317 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:43,960 Speaker 1: which is made without needing to give a reason. But 318 00:16:44,080 --> 00:16:47,880 Speaker 1: it is illegal to exclude jurors because of their race. Yes, 319 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:50,960 Speaker 1: so they had plenty of black jurors to choose from, 320 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: they just didn't choose to put any of them on 321 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: your jury exactly. So now magically the prosecution had found 322 00:16:57,840 --> 00:17:00,680 Speaker 1: two more witnesses, and we hear this again and again 323 00:17:00,880 --> 00:17:04,359 Speaker 1: right on this show. These are incentivized jail house nitches, 324 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: Frederick Veal and Maurice Hawkins. And they both testified that 325 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,959 Speaker 1: you were their cellmate while you were waiting trial, and 326 00:17:12,960 --> 00:17:16,560 Speaker 1: that you admitted to committing the crime. So jail house nitches, 327 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: they are the most unreliable witnesses of all because they're 328 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,640 Speaker 1: all incentivized, and sometimes they lie about being incentivized while 329 00:17:23,640 --> 00:17:26,880 Speaker 1: they're lying about overhearing these magical confessions. Right. So both 330 00:17:26,920 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: of these two guys later recanted, We're just going to 331 00:17:29,880 --> 00:17:31,960 Speaker 1: speculate that they may have gotten whatever they were going 332 00:17:32,040 --> 00:17:34,359 Speaker 1: to get, they got reduced senses that got rewarded in 333 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:37,560 Speaker 1: some way. So now we get to Patricia Hallman, who 334 00:17:37,640 --> 00:17:40,919 Speaker 1: was a neighbor of yours, and she testified that on 335 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: the morning of the crime, around seven thirty am, she 336 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,199 Speaker 1: saw you going into your house in a rage. I 337 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: can just picture her making up this story, okay. And 338 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:53,719 Speaker 1: other witnesses testified to seeing you at various times that morning, 339 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,639 Speaker 1: including Catherine Snow, who claimed that she saw you leaning 340 00:17:57,680 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: against the car outside the factory where Simpson worked. Clemmy 341 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,960 Speaker 1: Fleming testified that she got a ride home from Roy 342 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: Harris to go make a payment at Tardy Furniture, but 343 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: she said she didn't go in because she was pregnant 344 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 1: and feeling sick, so Harris drove her home. Now, why 345 00:18:12,000 --> 00:18:14,639 Speaker 1: does that matter, because she said she saw you running 346 00:18:14,680 --> 00:18:18,879 Speaker 1: away from the store, and Harris said he also saw 347 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:22,560 Speaker 1: someone running but only thought it was you because Fleming said, 348 00:18:22,600 --> 00:18:27,440 Speaker 1: so this web is getting deep and deeper. So now 349 00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,800 Speaker 1: comes Jack Matthews, an investigator for the Mississippi Highway State Patrol, 350 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,679 Speaker 1: who testified that based on a ledger sheet at Tardy Furniture, 351 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,320 Speaker 1: two hundred eighty seven dollars was missing from the cash straw. Now, 352 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:39,879 Speaker 1: they then came up with a theory, the two hundred 353 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,280 Speaker 1: and fifty five dollars that was found in Connie's home 354 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:44,639 Speaker 1: your girlfriend was the same money that was missing for 355 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 1: the furniture store. Amazing, because no one else had two 356 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,360 Speaker 1: hundred dollars in it must have been the same two 357 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:50,960 Speaker 1: hundred dollars. 358 00:18:51,000 --> 00:18:53,560 Speaker 2: And I thought that was so crazy. Is she not 359 00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:54,879 Speaker 2: allowed to save money? 360 00:18:55,280 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 1: I mean, I imagine most people in town had a little 361 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: bit of cash in their house, like they could have said, hey, thing, 362 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 1: I agree, could have been twenty dollars. Oh, here's the 363 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:08,360 Speaker 1: twenty from the store. What do you know? Amazing. I'm 364 00:19:08,359 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 1: glad you could laugh about it because I'm about to cry. 365 00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: A forensic sometimes you have the lad keep him crying, Okay. Well, 366 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: so then there was a forensic analyst who conducted the 367 00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 1: gunshot residue test on your hands, which magically produced one particle, 368 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 1: who testified that the residue certainly had to be from 369 00:19:27,240 --> 00:19:30,000 Speaker 1: handling a gun and not anything else. So this is 370 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:31,919 Speaker 1: a guy who didn't know what the fuck he was 371 00:19:31,960 --> 00:19:35,199 Speaker 1: talking about, because we know that that's not true. True. 372 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 1: Then Ballish testified, remember him from before, one hundred percent 373 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 1: positive that the bullets recovered from the scene had been 374 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:44,000 Speaker 1: fired from Simpson's gun. But when testified about the ten 375 00:19:44,080 --> 00:19:46,600 Speaker 1: and a half size feel a box found in her home, 376 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: your girlfriend told the story that you had said right, 377 00:19:49,560 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 1: She had purchased for her son in November of ninety five, 378 00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,240 Speaker 1: and that her son took them when he moved to 379 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:56,320 Speaker 1: his father's in ninety six. They could have verified that 380 00:19:56,359 --> 00:19:59,880 Speaker 1: if they cared exactly, you testified that he would start 381 00:20:00,119 --> 00:20:03,000 Speaker 1: working at Tardi or July ninety six. What was your 382 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: testimony with the batteries about, Like I. 383 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,600 Speaker 2: Told them, she sent me around to I think it 384 00:20:07,640 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 2: was a tasko at the time who sold her the batteries. Now, 385 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,439 Speaker 2: my job was to just pick the batteries up and 386 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,840 Speaker 2: take them out to the country club, and they were 387 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 2: going to put them on the golf carts. But you know, 388 00:20:18,920 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 2: pulling off from a tasko to the battery slid out. 389 00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 2: He hit the payment and one was leaking the other one. 390 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,399 Speaker 2: There was nothing wrong with the battery other than you know, 391 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:31,800 Speaker 2: the ages got danged up on the concrete, and she said, well, 392 00:20:31,880 --> 00:20:34,280 Speaker 2: just take them back around there and I'm gonna call 393 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 2: and see if they give me some type of deal 394 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 2: on them or replace them. If they can't, then you debt. 395 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 2: I have to come out of your pain. I said, 396 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:42,960 Speaker 2: I have no problem with that, because I was you right. 397 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:46,159 Speaker 2: I spoke to time down no offense. But that's a 398 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,800 Speaker 2: boring ass story. I mean, yes it is. 399 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: And it wasn't the only boring part of your day, 400 00:20:52,760 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 1: because on the day of the crime, you also testified 401 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 1: about getting up at nine cooking a little breakfast yeah, 402 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: hand on a can of short yeah, the sister's house 403 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:03,879 Speaker 1: to get some bandages, and convenience store to buy some 404 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: beer and chips. It really sounds like a very average, 405 00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:09,600 Speaker 1: average day, average day. And you told them that you 406 00:21:09,640 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: hadn't committed the crime, they hadn't stolen the gun, and 407 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:15,760 Speaker 1: that you hadn't been running near the store at ten am. True. 408 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: You also told them, which was again easily verifiable, that 409 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 1: you wore size eleven Nike shoes, and that you shot 410 00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:24,520 Speaker 1: off fireworks the day before the murders and handled the 411 00:21:24,600 --> 00:21:27,359 Speaker 1: lead car battery. I working on the truck, which you 412 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:29,840 Speaker 1: know you're not a scientist, but even you could figure 413 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,800 Speaker 1: out that these things could cause this, you know, confusion 414 00:21:32,840 --> 00:21:34,080 Speaker 1: to the testing. 415 00:21:35,119 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 2: Well, I later found that out. You know, I'm just 416 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 2: being honest about what I did. 417 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 1: And what about alibi witnesses? Do you have any alibi? 418 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,080 Speaker 2: But just at the first trial, only the keys, and 419 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:46,640 Speaker 2: they brewed that they didn't want to bring the keys 420 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:48,440 Speaker 2: in it because they were so young, you know, and 421 00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:52,719 Speaker 2: dramatism or anything like that. But there was a few 422 00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:54,440 Speaker 2: people wo knew my where about them. My cousin even 423 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 2: come by the house and told me what was going on. 424 00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 2: He said, when I first heard it, all I thought 425 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:00,960 Speaker 2: about was you. I thought you got killed down there, 426 00:22:01,600 --> 00:22:03,000 Speaker 2: so I can't over here to check on you. 427 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: And then the jury deliberated for one whole hour, one 428 00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:12,440 Speaker 1: whole hour, one hour. I can't imagine what that conversation 429 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 1: was like. The all white jury convicted you in an hour, 430 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,440 Speaker 1: and later that day they went ahead and imposed the 431 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: death penalty. 432 00:22:20,080 --> 00:22:24,159 Speaker 2: Oh man, my word was turned upside down. Put it 433 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:30,200 Speaker 2: in this whole and parchment is I cannot describe portion 434 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:37,400 Speaker 2: to you. If you didn't have someone on the outside 435 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:41,880 Speaker 2: who love and support you, it was hard to maintain 436 00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 2: in there. Them guys just taking sheets and taking their 437 00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:48,879 Speaker 2: own live and I've experienced that a lot while I 438 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,879 Speaker 2: was there. It's a bad place. 439 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,040 Speaker 1: So between Trot one and two the jail house niche 440 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,280 Speaker 1: mister Veale recanted his testimony, saying that he had been 441 00:23:18,320 --> 00:23:21,560 Speaker 1: coerced by the prosecution and promised a piece of the reward. 442 00:23:21,680 --> 00:23:25,399 Speaker 1: But Hawkins stood by his testimony. But when your attorney 443 00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,760 Speaker 1: confronted him with the transcript of an interview he had 444 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 1: done during which he never talked about you. In the transcript, 445 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: he said that he testified quote to protect myself from 446 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:40,399 Speaker 1: doing time and getting killed end quote. In exchange for 447 00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,640 Speaker 1: his testimony, very important, Hawkins's cocaine charge was dropped and 448 00:23:44,760 --> 00:23:48,600 Speaker 1: he got house arrests for burglary. I guess that mister 449 00:23:48,640 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: Hawkins was a black man. Did they typically give black 450 00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 1: men house arrest for burglary in Mississippi? No, I need 451 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:57,639 Speaker 1: to answer that question. I just wanted to hear you 452 00:23:57,680 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 1: say it, okay. So while the first conviction was being appealed, 453 00:24:02,480 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: a second trial occurred and it was moved to Harrison County, 454 00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: and this second trial was for the murder of Derek 455 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:12,560 Speaker 1: Bobo Stewart. This time the jury was made up of 456 00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:16,159 Speaker 1: eleven white jurors and one black juror, so they managed 457 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,879 Speaker 1: to get one on there this time, but that didn't 458 00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:22,920 Speaker 1: help either. But in this trial, Roy Harris, the guy 459 00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,960 Speaker 1: who allegedly took Connie Fleming, remember her by the Tarti's 460 00:24:26,960 --> 00:24:30,560 Speaker 1: Furniture store. Yes, he testified again, but this time he 461 00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:32,840 Speaker 1: said that he saw a man running in downtown Winona 462 00:24:32,840 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: at nine am instead of ten am, and it Miss 463 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:38,240 Speaker 1: Fleming was not with him, which was a totally different 464 00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:41,240 Speaker 1: story than he had told the first time. Well, so 465 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 1: he was trying to have in trouble remembering his own lie, 466 00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:45,639 Speaker 1: so he said that an hour later. It is hard 467 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: when you lie to remember them sometimes, so he said 468 00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:52,600 Speaker 1: that an hour later, around ten, Fleming had asked him 469 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:54,920 Speaker 1: to take her to Tardi Furniture, but she changed her mind. 470 00:24:54,960 --> 00:24:58,159 Speaker 1: They turned around before even arriving, another change, so nothing 471 00:24:58,200 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 1: was consistent. So Cleming flemings is cousins Latarsha Blissett and 472 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: Stacy Wright both testified that Fleming admitted to them that 473 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 1: she had not seen you running from the store. Fleming's 474 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 1: sister Mary Ella also testified, saying that Fleming came to 475 00:25:12,480 --> 00:25:14,240 Speaker 1: her house on the morning of the murders, and a 476 00:25:14,280 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: friend stopped over to tell them that Bertha Tarti had 477 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,840 Speaker 1: been killed. Mary Ella testified that she and Fleming went 478 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 1: to Tardi Furniture, but that Fleming never mentioned seeing you 479 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: that morning. There's so many holes in this like Swiss cheese. 480 00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: A few pieces defense also called your defense called O'Dell 481 00:25:30,880 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 1: Homman Junior, who was the brother of Patricia Hammond who 482 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,359 Speaker 1: testified in the first trial, and Odell mister Holman Junior, 483 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 1: who was imprisoned on a provation violation for aggravated assault, 484 00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: testified that Patricia was lying, doing so at his suggestion 485 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:45,639 Speaker 1: in an attempt to cash in on the reward. The 486 00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 1: pieces are just falling off this puzzle, you know they are. Nonetheless, 487 00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,760 Speaker 1: you were convicted again on March thirtieth, nineteen ninety nine, 488 00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 1: convicted of capital murder and got death penalty again. So 489 00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,640 Speaker 1: now we get to the reversals. In December of two thousand, 490 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: the Mississippi Supreme Court reversed your first conviction in ordered 491 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 1: a new trial. Now, no mention was made of the 492 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 1: racially biased jury selection, which is odd, but they did 493 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,520 Speaker 1: hold that your trial was unfair because the prosecution presented 494 00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,320 Speaker 1: evidence of all four murders when you were only being 495 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,240 Speaker 1: tried for the murder of Miss Tardy. This led to 496 00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:25,840 Speaker 1: the jury's exposure to inflammatory and prejudicial evidence. Sure, they 497 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,879 Speaker 1: thought you were like a mass killer, right, they were 498 00:26:28,880 --> 00:26:31,960 Speaker 1: probably scared to you. The court also noted that Evans's 499 00:26:32,040 --> 00:26:35,520 Speaker 1: cross examination included questions that had no basis in fact 500 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: and that were in poor faith. Evans also presented information 501 00:26:39,119 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 1: that was never in evidence. Now for the Mississippi Supreme 502 00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: Court to say, it's pretty strong. So in April two 503 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 1: thousand and three, now, the Mississippi Supreme Court also reversed 504 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,040 Speaker 1: your conviction for mister Stewart's murder. The court found the 505 00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: same issues in the first trial, naturally because it was 506 00:26:54,359 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: the same prosecutor. They're in the same dirty tricks, emphasizing 507 00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 1: that your right to a fair trial was impossible due 508 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:01,879 Speaker 1: to the prosecution including evidence from the other murders. But 509 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 1: still they didn't mention the racially biased jury selection, which 510 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 1: would seem to be the most obvious thing of all. 511 00:27:07,240 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 1: But at least they got it right for the Well, 512 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: they didn't get all the reasons, but they got it 513 00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 1: right for one of the reasons or two of the reason, 514 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:17,119 Speaker 1: whatever it is. But due to these two reversals, the 515 00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,880 Speaker 1: prosecution now decided they would do what your defense larder 516 00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:21,560 Speaker 1: to ask for all his years ago, which was to 517 00:27:21,600 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: consolidate the four cases. So trial three February two thousand 518 00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 1: and four. Now you're being tried for all four murders. 519 00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:31,080 Speaker 1: This trial was held, was held. This was held in 520 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: Montgomery County. Now why is it? Why are we laughing? 521 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,080 Speaker 2: Because that's when it started. They moved it out of 522 00:27:36,160 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 2: one owner and it brought it back to one on them. 523 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 2: So now all of a sudden, it's okay to try 524 00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:42,200 Speaker 2: you back? And why knowing okay? 525 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 1: During jury selection, the prosecution used seven of their challenges 526 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: to get rid of black jurors. The defense objected correctly, 527 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 1: contending that it was racially motivated, could have been a coincidence, 528 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,440 Speaker 1: but sure liked. The prosecution then used its remaining five 529 00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: run three challenges black people as well. The jury was 530 00:28:02,600 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 1: ultimately composed, you guessed it, eleven white jurors and one 531 00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: black juror. Yes, And the one black person that managed 532 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:15,440 Speaker 1: to get on this jury was only selected because again, 533 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,879 Speaker 1: I don't want to insult anybody's intelligence, because you're going 534 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,119 Speaker 1: to know this before I say it, But it's because 535 00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:23,720 Speaker 1: they ran out of parentory challenges. The prosecution couldn't get 536 00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,879 Speaker 1: rid of the last black person, so that person was 537 00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:31,800 Speaker 1: put on the jury, and the court ruled that this 538 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: was not racially discriminatory, that they just happened to use 539 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 1: all twelve of their challenges to get rid of black people. 540 00:28:37,920 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: Crazy coincidence, though, say, and this trial was similar to 541 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,360 Speaker 1: the first two, but this time mister Hammond Junior, remember 542 00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: Odell Hollmon Junior, testified for the prosecution. He said that 543 00:28:49,440 --> 00:28:51,680 Speaker 1: while he was in prison, you confessed to him that 544 00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,160 Speaker 1: you committed the murders. And it wasn't until much later 545 00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: that we found out what his little deal was. Right, Yes, 546 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,280 Speaker 1: and it's crazy, right because everybody that watches TV knows 547 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: you can't bribe a witness, right you go to jail 548 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: for that shit you do. But they don't. They can 549 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: drive all the witnesses they want, all they want, and 550 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: they got better bribes than anybody the outside could possibly have. 551 00:29:13,480 --> 00:29:14,800 Speaker 1: I don't care if you go to somebody who say 552 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,160 Speaker 1: I give you a million knowledge, testify the way I 553 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: want you to, they can say I'll let you out 554 00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:23,280 Speaker 1: of prison. Exactly in his case. That's what happened. Oh boy. Okay, 555 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:27,560 Speaker 1: So February two thousand and four, the jury convicted you 556 00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 1: of all four council capital murder and your sentenced to 557 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: death again. Harder believe you're sitting here as many times 558 00:29:32,920 --> 00:29:35,640 Speaker 1: you even sends to death here. You strike me as 559 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: easy to love and hard to kill. But that's just me, okay. Anyway, 560 00:29:41,880 --> 00:29:45,280 Speaker 1: Three years later, on February first, two thousand and seven, 561 00:29:45,360 --> 00:29:48,840 Speaker 1: here goes again. The Mississippi Supreme Court reversed the convictions 562 00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 1: again and order the new trial. The court found that 563 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: prosecution was racially discriminatory in jury selection, this time, noting 564 00:29:54,960 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 1: that the case was and I quote, as strong as 565 00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,400 Speaker 1: a prima facie case of racial discriminated as we have 566 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: ever seen. That's powerful in Mississippi or anywhere. But that's crazy. 567 00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 1: So okay, now they try you again. Call me kookie, 568 00:30:08,280 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 1: But I don't think the same prosecutor should be allowed 569 00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:12,560 Speaker 1: to just keep trying the same personal true again. I 570 00:30:12,560 --> 00:30:14,040 Speaker 1: think that might be some way you want to take 571 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: a look at. But age this time, the jury consisted 572 00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 1: of seven white and five black jurors. 573 00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 2: They gave me a little hope. 574 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,640 Speaker 1: Now, December fifth, two thousand and seven, a mistrial was 575 00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: declared as the jury could not reach a verdict and 576 00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:30,520 Speaker 1: get ready for another shocker surprise ending seven white members 577 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: of the jury voted to convict and the five black 578 00:30:33,000 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: members voted to a quit. I don't even have the 579 00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:37,720 Speaker 1: right words for that. So here comes trial number five 580 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 1: September two thousand and eight. This time the jury was 581 00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 1: made up of nine white and three black members. The 582 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:49,160 Speaker 1: jury ended up in another mistrial, this time voting eleven 583 00:30:49,200 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 1: to one to convict. The one dissenting person was a 584 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,960 Speaker 1: black person. And comes trial number six in summer of 585 00:30:54,960 --> 00:30:58,520 Speaker 1: twenty ten, and this time the jury was composed of 586 00:30:58,560 --> 00:31:02,400 Speaker 1: eleven white and one black member, and they found you 587 00:31:02,440 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 1: guilty on all four counts of capital murder again on 588 00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:10,200 Speaker 1: June eighteenth to twenty ten, and sentenced you to death again. 589 00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: And now we get to the post post post post post. 590 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 1: It took me a long time just to say everything. 591 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,920 Speaker 1: You had to live its conviction litigation. So you were 592 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:26,120 Speaker 1: represented now by ker Weeble and Jerry Lynn Johnson from 593 00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:28,720 Speaker 1: the Cornell Law School Death Penalty Clinic, and they appealed 594 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:33,240 Speaker 1: your conviction. In twenty fourteen, the Mississippi Supreme Court upheld 595 00:31:33,320 --> 00:31:37,120 Speaker 1: the convictions and death sentences it The team sought review 596 00:31:37,320 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: in the US Supreme Court, and in twenty sixteen, they 597 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 1: ordered the Mississippi Supreme Court to review the possibly racially 598 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:51,280 Speaker 1: discriminatory jury selection. In November twenty seventeen, it was ruled 599 00:31:51,320 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: I'm getting the chills again. It was ruled by a 600 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:58,600 Speaker 1: five to four vote that there was no discrimination. True, 601 00:32:00,600 --> 00:32:03,080 Speaker 1: the most polite way I can think of to say, 602 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 1: this is, what the fuck are they talking about? Well, 603 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: I think I did say it that way. You would 604 00:32:12,040 --> 00:32:15,880 Speaker 1: out for hear that, you know, sayd it really is. 605 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,960 Speaker 1: But your team appealed to the US Supreme Court again, 606 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 1: and this is when American Public Media APM started their investigation. 607 00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:28,840 Speaker 1: And they did as we talked about the podcast in 608 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:33,880 Speaker 1: the Dark, And this podcast began in May twenty eighteen, 609 00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: and it was a big hit, a big, big hit, 610 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:42,400 Speaker 1: big hit, and the things they uncovered are shocking. Fleming 611 00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: now said her testimonies and all of the trial were liies. 612 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,200 Speaker 1: She confessed that quote the whole this is her quote. 613 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: The whole time I've been telling them, I don't remember 614 00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:52,520 Speaker 1: the day. The whole time I've been telling them. I 615 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: don't remember the day. I've been confused of the day 616 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: from the beginning. I just didn't know how to say it. 617 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:03,959 Speaker 1: I was scared I was going to jail. Wow okay. 618 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: Odell Hallman also recanting, saying that everything was all make 619 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: believe on his part, and he also said that Evans 620 00:33:11,440 --> 00:33:15,040 Speaker 1: dropped the drug charges penning against him and offered him 621 00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: other legal assistants. Roy Harris, who was the friend and 622 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,320 Speaker 1: driver of Clemmy Fleming, told the podcast that police had 623 00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,560 Speaker 1: showed him a photo of you, and Harris said that 624 00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: the man he saw running away was not you exactly, 625 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 1: and eventually he thought he was going to get arrested 626 00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:34,960 Speaker 1: if he didn't say it was you, so he did. 627 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,160 Speaker 1: Edward McChristian also recanted his testimony that he was sitting 628 00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: on the porch at seven thirty eight am when you 629 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: supposedly allegedly walked past his house from dear uncle Doyle 630 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:50,200 Speaker 1: Simpson's workplace, the garment factory, where the testimony had tied 631 00:33:50,240 --> 00:33:53,880 Speaker 1: you to the alleged stolen gun. So all those lies 632 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: are now unraveling. So in June twenty nineteen, the US 633 00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: Supreme Court reversed your convictions and death SeNSS by a 634 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,160 Speaker 1: vote of seven to two, seven to two. That's amazing. 635 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 1: It ruled that the prosecution had engaged in racially discriminatory 636 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: jury selection because they had struck forty one of the 637 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 1: forty two black prospective jurors in the sixth trials combined. 638 00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,319 Speaker 1: So Sherry Lynn Johnson had made the argument that led 639 00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 1: to the US Supreme Court decision to reverse. She argued 640 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,520 Speaker 1: that your case should be dismissed and not brought to 641 00:34:26,560 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 1: a seventh trial. Should be obvious to anybody as you 642 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,640 Speaker 1: had already spent over twenty years now on death row, 643 00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:37,640 Speaker 1: and that the evidence against you was basically advantished. It 644 00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,840 Speaker 1: was non existent. It never had existed. But that is 645 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:43,839 Speaker 1: just proven that it had never existed. The Washington DC 646 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,320 Speaker 1: law firm of Hogan Lovel's, as well as the friend 647 00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:49,080 Speaker 1: of the show, the director of the Mississippi Innocence Project, 648 00:34:49,160 --> 00:34:53,320 Speaker 1: Tucker Carrington, the Mississippi Office of Post Conviction Council got involved, 649 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 1: as well as attorney's Rob McDuff we know him, and 650 00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:59,880 Speaker 1: Henderson Hill. They all began preparing for a possible retroal. 651 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 1: Now you had the Dream Team training team Avengers. Yes, 652 00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:08,200 Speaker 1: and on December sixteenth, twenty nineteen, you were finally released 653 00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:12,000 Speaker 1: the home confinement to wait for your seventh trial. This 654 00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,359 Speaker 1: had been almost twenty three years in prison, right right 655 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,399 Speaker 1: in twenty three. What do you remember about that day? 656 00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:20,040 Speaker 2: I was nervous, you know, you know, I'd have been 657 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,440 Speaker 2: so close to home out of all the years and 658 00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 2: never made it, you know. And at that time, I 659 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 2: was like, I don't see him giving me bail by 660 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,040 Speaker 2: letting me go home, you know, until they decide what 661 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:32,480 Speaker 2: they want to do, whether they want to have a 662 00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 2: seventh trial or not. But we got in the courtroom, 663 00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:38,759 Speaker 2: you know, and Doug Gibson didn't even show up that day. 664 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,879 Speaker 2: He sent his assistant judge Lober talking, and he got 665 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 2: started in about Doug the DA not showing up. You know, 666 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 2: I would expect him to be here, you know. And 667 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 2: and the more he talked, the better I felt. The 668 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:56,160 Speaker 2: more he talked about Doug. And then he said, you know, 669 00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,839 Speaker 2: at this time, you know, I am going to grant Ball. 670 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 1: Where'd you're going? Tex? Back to the plane on plane on 671 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:04,759 Speaker 1: to your sisters. Yes, what was your first meal when 672 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 1: you got out? Oh? Man? 673 00:36:06,160 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 2: So I had fried fish, catfish, hush puppet French fried 674 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 2: cold saw and he was a funny thing too, because 675 00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:17,360 Speaker 2: we were in the restroom, me and my brother in law. 676 00:36:17,920 --> 00:36:20,520 Speaker 2: It has been like seven to eight other guys. So 677 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,640 Speaker 2: I'm standing at the urinal and you know, related myself. 678 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 2: So I get through, I'm looking for the handle, and 679 00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,279 Speaker 2: everybody was saying, just just walk away. I said, no, 680 00:36:30,360 --> 00:36:32,600 Speaker 2: that's rude. You don't leak in a urinar and just 681 00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 2: walk away. I said, leat it on that start smelling, 682 00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,960 Speaker 2: you know, everybody, hey, just walk away. 683 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: I stepped back. 684 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,840 Speaker 2: He flushed itself and I had to walk back up 685 00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 2: to it and look at it, you know. And one 686 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:44,799 Speaker 2: of the guys in there, the white guy, he said, 687 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 2: I don't know where you being, but you've been going 688 00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:50,799 Speaker 2: for a long time. I said, yes, I have, and 689 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,399 Speaker 2: I'm washing my hand. And as my brother in law 690 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 2: walked back through the restaurant drive my hands and everything, 691 00:36:57,680 --> 00:37:00,680 Speaker 2: people were just stopping me. It's gonna be okay. And 692 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 2: I guess they went back got and told their wives 693 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,319 Speaker 2: and everything about what happened in the bathroom, you know, 694 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,879 Speaker 2: and people were just telling me it's gonna be okay. Yes, 695 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:13,000 Speaker 2: I mean, it was funny and emotion at the same time. 696 00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:17,520 Speaker 1: On December sixteenth, twenty nineteen, you were released to home 697 00:37:17,560 --> 00:37:21,120 Speaker 1: confinement waiting for the seventh trial, like we talked about. 698 00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:26,840 Speaker 1: And then in January twenty twenty, Evans stepped off the 699 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,040 Speaker 1: case and the Attorney General's office began reviewing it. So 700 00:37:31,000 --> 00:37:34,920 Speaker 1: and sure enough, on September fourth, twenty twenty, Mississippi Attorney 701 00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:37,759 Speaker 1: General Lynn Fitch announced that the charges were going to 702 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,560 Speaker 1: be dismissed, and you stated, I'm now I'm going to 703 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:42,359 Speaker 1: quote you, even though you're sitting right here in front 704 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,880 Speaker 1: of me. Today, I am finally free from the injustice 705 00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,680 Speaker 1: that left me locked in a box for twenty three years. 706 00:37:50,600 --> 00:37:53,680 Speaker 2: I felt like doing flips, and you know, big guy 707 00:37:53,760 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 2: like me shouldn't be doing flips. But it happened, as 708 00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:03,319 Speaker 2: I can't even describe here. George Loeper say, you know 709 00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:09,279 Speaker 2: I dismissed this case with prejudice. Yes, and you know, 710 00:38:09,440 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 2: and at the time the words didn't even wring on me. 711 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 2: And someone told me, he said, when he said with prejudice, 712 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:18,160 Speaker 2: that means that they can never try you again. 713 00:38:19,440 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's beautiful, And it's funny because prejudice is usually 714 00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: a bad word. Only instance I could think of when 715 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,759 Speaker 1: it's a good word. Yes. So in the meantime, it's 716 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,920 Speaker 1: great to see you out here living your best life married, 717 00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:35,600 Speaker 1: you know, traveling. What can our listeners do to show support. 718 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 2: I do have a gofund me out there, so. 719 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:40,280 Speaker 1: Yes, we'll have it linked in the bio. So now, 720 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:45,080 Speaker 1: mister Flowers, we have a segment of our show that 721 00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 1: I love the most, which is called Closing Arguments. It 722 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 1: works like this. First of all, I again thank you 723 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:56,080 Speaker 1: for just being you and being here in the studio 724 00:38:56,200 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 1: with me. And then I turned my microphone off, kick 725 00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,439 Speaker 1: back in my chair and sometimes I close my eyes 726 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,239 Speaker 1: and just listen to anything else you have to say. 727 00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,359 Speaker 1: It's called closing arguments, and you have the mic and 728 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:11,600 Speaker 1: you can just talk about anything you think you want 729 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:11,919 Speaker 1: to share. 730 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,600 Speaker 2: Well, I would first like to thank you all for 731 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 2: having me, and I think you also got all right. 732 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 2: I really do and look forward to hanging out with you. 733 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:26,240 Speaker 2: So all the listeners are I asked that we strive 734 00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:28,800 Speaker 2: for change, you know, and make this a better place. 735 00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,399 Speaker 2: I think we all should get along and love one 736 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:38,840 Speaker 2: another and not hate for no reason at all. You know, 737 00:39:42,200 --> 00:39:44,600 Speaker 2: I'm a laid back guy. I'm easy to get it along. 738 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,839 Speaker 2: With I would like to send shout out to all 739 00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:54,400 Speaker 2: the victim's family and I hope one day soon that 740 00:39:54,520 --> 00:40:02,319 Speaker 2: they find the real guy. 741 00:40:04,920 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flahm. 742 00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,279 Speaker 1: Please support your local innocence projects and go to the 743 00:40:11,360 --> 00:40:13,320 Speaker 1: link in our bio to see how you can help. 744 00:40:13,760 --> 00:40:16,799 Speaker 1: I'd like to thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff 745 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,680 Speaker 1: Clyburn and Kevin Warnis. The music on the show, as always, 746 00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:24,279 Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be 747 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:27,600 Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and 748 00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,920 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason 749 00:40:31,960 --> 00:40:34,400 Speaker 1: Flahm is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts and 750 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:42,040 Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number one