1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: back to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always 3 00:00:30,800 --> 00:00:34,920 Speaker 1: so much for tuning in. That's our one and only 4 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:40,680 Speaker 1: super producer, pest controller, all around man at arms not 5 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:45,400 Speaker 1: paid in rat tails. Mr Max Williams. Give him a hand, 6 00:00:45,600 --> 00:00:48,480 Speaker 1: just don't give him a rat tail. Uh. They called 7 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:52,120 Speaker 1: me Ben. I went with a snake bite last time. 8 00:00:52,640 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 1: I'm gonna I'm gonna have a new moniker by the 9 00:00:54,800 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: end of this I suspect and and nol in the 10 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: time between now and our previous episode, did you have 11 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:05,920 Speaker 1: to resort to your serpentine street name? Not yet man, 12 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 1: not yet Still, I'm still sitting on that one. I'm 13 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:12,479 Speaker 1: also reserving, like shaving my beard for when that moment comes. 14 00:01:12,560 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: God forbid, because I will be unrealizable. I've been rocking 15 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: this thing since I was about fourteen, so I will 16 00:01:18,160 --> 00:01:21,319 Speaker 1: be a completely new person. Uh. Maybe I'll have to 17 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: wear an eyepatch or something to go along with my 18 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: badass snake nickname. I got eyepatches. I got a eyepatch guy. Um, 19 00:01:28,040 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: Oh my god, that conversation. It's a true story, folks. Uh, 20 00:01:33,880 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: Noel and I are good friends. We've known each other 21 00:01:36,440 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 1: for a number of years. And of course friend of 22 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: the show, the guy who does the actual work here, 23 00:01:41,440 --> 00:01:45,399 Speaker 1: Max Williams, you are a famous friend. You've you've known, 24 00:01:45,680 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: You've known uh Noel for a while too, and this 25 00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:50,120 Speaker 1: is a true fact. This is what I'm gonna call 26 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 1: a hashtag nold fat. When we first met, we're first 27 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: becoming friends all these years ago. I had asked this guy. 28 00:01:57,600 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: I said, oh, man, you know, we're talking about beer 29 00:02:00,480 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 1: and I'll grow mine out every so often until I 30 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:06,000 Speaker 1: miss soup. And Uh I was talking with Nolan said 31 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: so hey, man, like, how long you've been growing the beard? 32 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: And that's when I learned that my friend has ever 33 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 1: since he grew facial hair, he has always had a beard. 34 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: I believe once you showed me one picture of you 35 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 1: from years and years back where you did not have 36 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,200 Speaker 1: a beard. I think it was maybe a photo from 37 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,400 Speaker 1: a band you were in. Well, yeah, so that's funny. 38 00:02:30,400 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: Even the photo from the band that I was in, 39 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:35,560 Speaker 1: um I still was rocking, sort of a little bit 40 00:02:35,560 --> 00:02:38,919 Speaker 1: of a chin strap kind of situation. Um My kid 41 00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: found a CD that I made with the band that 42 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 1: I was in in nineteen If you want to date me. 43 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: I was about fifteen, I think, and I still had 44 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:55,079 Speaker 1: kind of a little fred Durst, little soul patch beard situation. UM, 45 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:57,120 Speaker 1: very very funny looking. But yeah, from then on I 46 00:02:57,160 --> 00:02:59,560 Speaker 1: just kind of let it ride. Well it looks good man, 47 00:02:59,800 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 1: it excuse and not everyone can pull it off. So 48 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: we are returning to another example of people not being 49 00:03:07,800 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: able to pull something off. There we go, that's our segue. Uh. 50 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:17,359 Speaker 1: We talked previously about something called the Cobra effect. We've 51 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:20,040 Speaker 1: seen this phenomenon occur in India. We saw it occur 52 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 1: in hannoy Uh or in Via Nam rather and both 53 00:03:25,680 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: times it happened during eras of colonial rule. Today we're 54 00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:33,880 Speaker 1: seeing the Cobra effect take place in a nearby part 55 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 1: of the world, but under much different circumstances. Long story short, 56 00:03:39,000 --> 00:03:45,200 Speaker 1: The Cobra effect basically describes unintended consequences of decisions in 57 00:03:45,400 --> 00:03:49,560 Speaker 1: complex systems. It's a game of public health, and it's 58 00:03:49,600 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 1: a very tough game. You know. You have to ask yourself, 59 00:03:53,200 --> 00:03:55,640 Speaker 1: how do you get a bunch of people a k a. 60 00:03:55,760 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: The public to change their behavior for the common good 61 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:05,520 Speaker 1: without um, without going too far in one direction, and 62 00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:09,080 Speaker 1: still managing to get everybody to follow along with you 63 00:04:09,200 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: and not think you're an iron fisted dictator or authoritarian. 64 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: It's tough because you know, we see it even now 65 00:04:18,080 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: with the idea of people wearing masks during the height 66 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 1: of the COVID pandemic, right, or the idea of getting 67 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,520 Speaker 1: people to stay home and not go to big celebrations 68 00:04:27,600 --> 00:04:34,960 Speaker 1: close together, you know, having spit contests or whatever. So, yeah, 69 00:04:35,279 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 1: you also have to pay for it, you have to, like, 70 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,560 Speaker 1: that's one of the big things. We saw this in Delhi, 71 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:42,839 Speaker 1: we saw this in Hallinois. It was the idea that 72 00:04:42,920 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 1: you could incentivize people to help eradicate pest. You could 73 00:04:46,200 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 1: crowdsource pest eradication by paying folks. But in today's episode, 74 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 1: we're looking at a slightly different governing structure. In the 75 00:04:57,760 --> 00:05:01,440 Speaker 1: nineteen forties, just a few decades after what went down 76 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:06,400 Speaker 1: with rats in Vietnam, the People's Republic of China found 77 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:09,280 Speaker 1: themselves in a tough spot. That's right. I mean, I 78 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 1: think that's no secret that the leadership of the People's 79 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:18,000 Speaker 1: Republic of China has typically operated with that iron fist 80 00:05:18,120 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: that you speak of. You know, one way of getting 81 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,000 Speaker 1: things done, it's just by not taking no for an answer, 82 00:05:23,080 --> 00:05:26,440 Speaker 1: not really caring about people's feelings or the feelings of 83 00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: the public, or having to you know, negotiate with a 84 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:34,400 Speaker 1: competing political party. Uh not just sound like a dictatorship apologist. 85 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: It certainly does simplify things to a degree. Um, you know, 86 00:05:38,400 --> 00:05:42,720 Speaker 1: and there are benevolent, more benevolent dictatorship type models, I suppose, 87 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:44,760 Speaker 1: But again that all depends on the whims of a 88 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 1: single human and as we know, uh, those whims can 89 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: be flighty. I mean, the nature of the word whim 90 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 1: in and of itself implies sort of like how am 91 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:56,720 Speaker 1: I feeling today? My feeling benevolent? Or am I feeling 92 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 1: a little grouchy? Am I just gonna kind of bend 93 00:05:59,480 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: people to you? My will? Exactly well said. And if 94 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: you can use this power of centralized authority two just 95 00:06:07,440 --> 00:06:10,279 Speaker 1: make things happen the way you would like them to happen, 96 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:16,640 Speaker 1: you honestly opened the door to even more unintended consequences 97 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:20,480 Speaker 1: because regardless of the kind of government you control, nature 98 00:06:20,960 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: follows its own rules. To paraphrase the famous Jeff Goldblum, 99 00:06:27,160 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 1: disease and vermin Uh find a way. So this is 100 00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,919 Speaker 1: what happened. Today's story is about how the People's Republic 101 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: of China did successfully accomplish an enormously difficult public health 102 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: objective eradicating some diseases and eradicating vermin, but in doing 103 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:53,840 Speaker 1: so they created and honest to god environmental catastrophee. Let's 104 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 1: look at it. So communist forces gain power in the 105 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,600 Speaker 1: fall of nine teen forty nine, and when they do, 106 00:07:02,080 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: China is already in a bad way. It is inundated 107 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: with very dangerous infectious diseases. We're talking all the hits, tuberculosis, plague, cholera, malaria, polio, smallpox, hookworm. 108 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:18,520 Speaker 1: I almost want to max to drop a beat there. 109 00:07:18,600 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: Point is they were endemic throughout a lot of the country. 110 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 1: Roughly ten and a half million people had a liver 111 00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 1: parasite named shistos, somiasis, cholera. Epidemics happened like regularly, and 112 00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: it wasn't uncommon for thousands and thousands of people to 113 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:42,720 Speaker 1: die every year. Infant mortality was skyrocketing. It was a 114 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: dangerous place to live. Yeah, it was a great article 115 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:49,560 Speaker 1: that goes into this in depth on NPR by Vicky Valentine, 116 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 1: which a great name from November of two thousand five. 117 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: So here's the gist. The Communist government UH did begin 118 00:07:57,200 --> 00:08:04,400 Speaker 1: to initiate these why had spread mandatory vaccination campaigns UM 119 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:07,760 Speaker 1: against those UH the conditions that you're referring to, the 120 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:13,240 Speaker 1: plague smallpox. They've actuated nearly three hundred million people. They 121 00:08:13,280 --> 00:08:18,720 Speaker 1: put into place UM sanitation measures to allow for clean 122 00:08:18,800 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 1: drinking water and the disposal of waste UM. And they 123 00:08:24,160 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 1: actually copied the Soviet Unions model of healthcare. There were 124 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: all of these little kind of offshoots of medical and 125 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:36,560 Speaker 1: public health officials that UM were meant to focus more 126 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: on UM being stewards of of healthcare to the population. 127 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:45,959 Speaker 1: They would actually go out into rural areas and treat 128 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:52,080 Speaker 1: diseases whenever possible. And we're talking about limited resources, we're 129 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,080 Speaker 1: talking about issues of logistics. We're talking about people doing 130 00:08:56,120 --> 00:09:04,599 Speaker 1: their best under series of at times fluid constraints. Medical care, sanitation, immunization, 131 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:06,880 Speaker 1: all of that can make a big difference, but it 132 00:09:06,920 --> 00:09:10,280 Speaker 1: can only do so much if you don't cut off 133 00:09:10,960 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 1: the sources of an infection or the you know, the 134 00:09:15,080 --> 00:09:19,040 Speaker 1: vectors of a disease at the root. And that meant 135 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 1: you have to get rid of the pest that transmit 136 00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: those diseases. Think of malaria and mosquitoes, Think of the 137 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: fleas on rodents that spread the plague, Think about flies. 138 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 1: What about sparrows that eat the fruit from fields of 139 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:41,480 Speaker 1: grain and rice. Those sparrows aren't necessarily spreading disease. They 140 00:09:41,480 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: are literally taking the food upon which human beings depend. 141 00:09:45,880 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 1: These are our four pests, that's what they were called. 142 00:09:49,240 --> 00:09:55,719 Speaker 1: Here that capital F here, that capital P four pest, flies, mosquitoes, rats, 143 00:09:55,720 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: and weirdly enough, sparrows. Oh mind. But the thing about 144 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:10,040 Speaker 1: sparrows is they don't only eat that stuff that's meant 145 00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: for human consumption. They also eat some of those insects 146 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:18,679 Speaker 1: that spread those other diseases, right, which is going to 147 00:10:18,760 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: be a big deal. Second, so this is all kind 148 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:26,040 Speaker 1: of wrapped up in what's known as the Great Leap Forward. Um, Ben, 149 00:10:26,080 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 1: can you give us a little bit of background on then? 150 00:10:27,920 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 1: I know this is very much an area of interest 151 00:10:29,920 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: for you personally. Yeah. The what became called the Four 152 00:10:35,160 --> 00:10:40,600 Speaker 1: Pest campaign was part of the Great Leap Forward, which 153 00:10:40,679 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: is also known as the Second Five Year Plan. This 154 00:10:44,720 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: was a massive economic and social campaign led by the 155 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 1: Chinese Communist Party and particularly chairman Mao zed Dong and 156 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:58,120 Speaker 1: the idea was we are going to take China's largely 157 00:10:58,160 --> 00:11:01,360 Speaker 1: a grarian economy and we were and to transform it 158 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:08,200 Speaker 1: into a communist society. It is important if you're not 159 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:10,960 Speaker 1: familiar with anything other than the name Great Leap Forward. 160 00:11:11,320 --> 00:11:15,600 Speaker 1: It is mission critical. It is crucial for you to 161 00:11:15,640 --> 00:11:20,559 Speaker 1: realize that the name might be seen as misleading. Millions 162 00:11:20,600 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 1: of people died in China during the Great Leap Forward. 163 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: It's still a matter of debate today amongst historians. Estimates 164 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 1: range from as little as fifteen million people dying to 165 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: as many as fifty five million people dying. This is 166 00:11:39,120 --> 00:11:45,080 Speaker 1: terrible stuff, but it's also a study in the tremendous 167 00:11:45,120 --> 00:11:49,840 Speaker 1: balancing act and tremendous danger of affecting large scale change 168 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 1: on a massive level as quickly as they attempted. So, yeah, 169 00:11:56,360 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 1: the Great Leap Forward. Um, this part of it, the 170 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: four Pest campaign, was a health campaign and said we're 171 00:12:04,800 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: targeting vermin that spread disease. If you kill small bothersome 172 00:12:11,280 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: animals and insects, you are being a good communist. You 173 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: are doing your part for the nation. So they were 174 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:26,320 Speaker 1: kind of paying people in like ideological points, if that 175 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:29,920 Speaker 1: makes sense. Instead of rat tails or cobra skins and 176 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 1: which you know, one would argue is just as effective 177 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:39,760 Speaker 1: and maybe does not have the same potential for abuse. 178 00:12:40,520 --> 00:12:44,040 Speaker 1: Uh if if the instructions being given to the good 179 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:47,680 Speaker 1: people of communist China were in fact the right ones, right, 180 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: because there's no way to really game the system for 181 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:53,360 Speaker 1: personal benefit, because in the communist system there really is 182 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 1: no personal benefit. It's all for the good of the 183 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: greater good. Right, Yeah, Yeah, And there were there were 184 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,400 Speaker 1: still you know, again we talked about the death toll. 185 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:05,600 Speaker 1: There were a lot of a lot of problems with 186 00:13:05,720 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 1: allocation of resources and logistics during the Great Leap Forward, 187 00:13:10,840 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: Like let's talk about nineteen fifty eight. All right, in 188 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:20,400 Speaker 1: ninety you're walking around China, you're going to be now 189 00:13:20,640 --> 00:13:24,160 Speaker 1: living in a commune of some sort if you formerly 190 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: were just in a village on a farm. You are 191 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:31,400 Speaker 1: also going to see a ton of propaganda that the 192 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: government has issued to try to crowdsource tackling these four pests. Uh. 193 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 1: The weather was really nice in the harvest was good, 194 00:13:42,760 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: but unfortunately the centralized government had sent a bunch of 195 00:13:48,640 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: former farmers off to work in steel production, and the 196 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:57,959 Speaker 1: harvest was rotting because it wasn't getting collected. That's the 197 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:00,880 Speaker 1: thing about a harvest. You gotta get the stuff out 198 00:14:00,880 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: of the ground, out of the field, and somehow process 199 00:14:03,960 --> 00:14:06,360 Speaker 1: it and get it to people so that they can 200 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 1: need it. That just wasn't happening. But if you're let's 201 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:13,360 Speaker 1: say it's early, you don't know that this is about 202 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,000 Speaker 1: to go down. You're seeing a lot of posters, and 203 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: the posters are like, I love propaganda from this time period. 204 00:14:22,280 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 1: The posters show kids hanging with their elders and all 205 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: these art pieces, works of art that are telling the 206 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: people of China to just carry around fly swatters, use guns, 207 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: use gongs. Let's set to start them into submission. Well, 208 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: it looks really good. Gongs are fun to draw on 209 00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,640 Speaker 1: propaganda posters, and you can see them now online. If 210 00:14:50,680 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: you go to Chinese posters all one word dot net, 211 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: you'll see one picture. I believe it's called Everybody comes 212 00:14:59,480 --> 00:15:03,040 Speaker 1: to Beat Sparrows And it looks like there's some siblings. 213 00:15:03,040 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 1: There's like an older brother and a younger sister, and 214 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: the brother has a sling shot and the sister is 215 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 1: just like holding dead sparrows. Uh. And then there's another 216 00:15:12,760 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: one night, which is a knife cool looking knife daggerish 217 00:15:18,840 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: based on the animals for scale and on it are 218 00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: the four pest mosquito, a fly, a sparrow, and a rat. 219 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: And let me just tell you, Noel Max, I don't 220 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: know if it's just artistic license, but that fly is huge. 221 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, is it? Is it? Like? I mean, the 222 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 1: Chinese zodiac doesn't have like the year of the rat, 223 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: like it wasn't the rat almost kind of like revered 224 00:15:39,120 --> 00:15:41,960 Speaker 1: in certain ways in the Chinese culture. Yeah, there is 225 00:15:42,000 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: the year of the rat. The rat is one of 226 00:15:44,600 --> 00:15:50,320 Speaker 1: the astrological signs in Chinese astrology or the Chinese zodiac. 227 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: I believe was the last year of the rat. It 228 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: happens every twelve years in in the Chinese zodiac, the 229 00:15:59,360 --> 00:16:05,960 Speaker 1: rat is served pretty quick witted, wise entity. And so 230 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 1: the idea is that if you if your sign in 231 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 1: Chinese civitiact is rat, it depends both on the year 232 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,360 Speaker 1: you're born and the time of year you're born, then 233 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 1: you are quick witted, resourceful, and you're smart, but you're 234 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: kind of cowardly. Well, there's also different flavors of rat, 235 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:26,200 Speaker 1: like there are for you, like the metal the metal rat, 236 00:16:26,280 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: the fire rat, things like that. So we've established that 237 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 1: this series of episodes is about unintended consequences. The first 238 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:39,120 Speaker 1: episode focused largely on you know, individual people citizens gaming 239 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: these sort of government incentive programs. Um and you you 240 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: made a really good point earlier in the episode today, Ben, 241 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: where you sort of aligned this or compared this with 242 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 1: maybe some of the programs that are happened that we're 243 00:16:50,600 --> 00:16:53,720 Speaker 1: happening through COVID relief and things like that, where while 244 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: they're intended to help people who really need it, we 245 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,520 Speaker 1: also saw people using some of that need to buy 246 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: like expensive Pokemon cards. Where there's a government relief program, 247 00:17:05,280 --> 00:17:07,840 Speaker 1: there's a way people are going to figure out how 248 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: to take advantage of it. Today's episode is about much 249 00:17:11,320 --> 00:17:15,080 Speaker 1: more of an iron fisted, you know, unilateral approach where 250 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: the only incentive for participating is to look good in 251 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:26,240 Speaker 1: the eyes of the all powerful government. So this program 252 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,600 Speaker 1: that you've been describing Ben through through these propaganda means, 253 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:32,040 Speaker 1: these posters and whatnot, and just kind of the rhetoric 254 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 1: that was going around was wildly successful. We have some 255 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 1: stats here. I think it was something in the neighborhood 256 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: of a billion sparrows were taken out, one point five 257 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:48,959 Speaker 1: billion rats, I love this one. A hundred million kims 258 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: of flies and eleven million kilograms of mosquitoes were absolutely destroyed. 259 00:17:55,960 --> 00:18:00,320 Speaker 1: So on that level, this was a screaming six tests. 260 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:03,399 Speaker 1: You know, it really worked. People were doing what they 261 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: were supposed to be doing. The fly swatters were out, 262 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 1: people were you know, just outright murdering, Uh, sparrows by 263 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,560 Speaker 1: hook or by crook, or by gong or by slingshot. 264 00:18:14,119 --> 00:18:19,679 Speaker 1: But here's the thing. The government significantly miscalculated, which is understandable. 265 00:18:19,720 --> 00:18:23,199 Speaker 1: I mean science, I was the fifties, I mean the science. 266 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 1: I think that the understanding of the balance of ecosystems 267 00:18:26,200 --> 00:18:28,840 Speaker 1: should have been pretty fully formed at this point, right, 268 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 1: this kind of research. They are these webs of interconnectedness 269 00:18:32,359 --> 00:18:34,920 Speaker 1: with different species, and how you know this balance exists? 270 00:18:34,920 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: I think it should have been available, should have been 271 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:40,840 Speaker 1: on the table. But for whatever reason, whether through pure 272 00:18:40,920 --> 00:18:45,879 Speaker 1: blind patriotism or some megalomaniacal sense of purpose that it 273 00:18:46,000 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: often comes along with these kinds of dictatorships. Uh, this 274 00:18:49,480 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: this connection was ignored. And the connection I'm referring to 275 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:56,359 Speaker 1: is the role of the sparrow in maintaining a balance, 276 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,760 Speaker 1: because as we mentioned, yeah, sparrows are a pest, and 277 00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: that they'll pick through your fields and eat your your 278 00:19:02,280 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: fruits and your seeds and all that, and they can 279 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:06,879 Speaker 1: cause a problem. But there's a there's another species of 280 00:19:06,920 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: critter that could cause even more of a problem, like 281 00:19:09,840 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 1: a biblical level problem, the humble on its own locusts. 282 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:17,920 Speaker 1: But as we know, locusts don't just hang on their own. 283 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: Locusts roll deep, like really deep, millions and millions of 284 00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:26,160 Speaker 1: them that can just swarm these fields. And just we've 285 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:28,480 Speaker 1: we've seen it, pitt I mean not I haven't seen 286 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:30,440 Speaker 1: it personally, but that we've seen it depicted in film. 287 00:19:30,520 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: And I think there's probably footage out there of literally 288 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:37,479 Speaker 1: these just waves of locusts coming in and just you know, 289 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,760 Speaker 1: leaving a skeletal remain of what once was there in 290 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,800 Speaker 1: terms of these crops or harvests. Um. And it turns 291 00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: out that sparrows also eat locusts. They would if they 292 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 1: were alive. Yes, yes, the circle of life indeed, And 293 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:59,840 Speaker 1: that's what happens when you break the circle. The sp 294 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: arrows were doing something, and without sparrows fulfilling that predator role, 295 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,879 Speaker 1: the locusts just went ham It went hard. In the 296 00:20:09,920 --> 00:20:14,560 Speaker 1: paint in addition to, as you said, a disaster on 297 00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 1: the level of a biblical plague, the Great Leap Forward 298 00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: involved some new ideas about agriculture, and the agricultural techniques 299 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:29,280 Speaker 1: they implemented just made things worse. There's a great quote 300 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 1: you can read it and Discover magazine dot com that 301 00:20:32,600 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 1: says the mass deaths of sparrows and nationwide loss of 302 00:20:36,200 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 1: crops resulted in untold millions starving. And they put the 303 00:20:41,640 --> 00:20:45,040 Speaker 1: number at twenty to thirty million people died from nineteen 304 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: fifty eight nineteen sixty two, and it was a demographic crisis. 305 00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:58,000 Speaker 1: The amount of people dying changed the nation for generations 306 00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 1: to come. And the and part of it is because 307 00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 1: the four Pest program was on its own enormously successful. 308 00:21:07,400 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 1: It did work. People did posse up and kill vermin together, 309 00:21:14,840 --> 00:21:18,760 Speaker 1: so they also stopped some diseases right that were spread 310 00:21:18,760 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: by mosquitoes and rats and so on. It made it 311 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:26,960 Speaker 1: one of the most successful public health campaigns in history, 312 00:21:27,480 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 1: at least if you just bracketed off by itself. But 313 00:21:31,040 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 1: nothing exists in a vacuum, right, I say this all 314 00:21:34,720 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 1: the time. This was a massive cost for the Chinese government, 315 00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 1: for the Chinese people, ecologically, demographically, the human species in 316 00:21:45,400 --> 00:21:49,760 Speaker 1: this case sort of failed to acknowledge the system that 317 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: had already existed, the system that had predated humanity, which 318 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: is that you need to have predators and pray interacting 319 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,560 Speaker 1: because if you remove one from the suation, if you 320 00:22:01,640 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 1: remove one constraint, then you know something else is going 321 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:08,560 Speaker 1: to grow to fill that space. And in this case, 322 00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:13,159 Speaker 1: it was a horrendous plague of lucus and millions of 323 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:20,240 Speaker 1: people did starve. That is a downer, but it is true, right, 324 00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: So let's put it. Let's put a fine point on it. 325 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,040 Speaker 1: Let's put a button in a bow on it. Millions 326 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 1: of people in part died because of one of the 327 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 1: most successful public health campaigns in history. It's weird when 328 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:36,240 Speaker 1: you put it that way, but it's true because the 329 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 1: four past campaign did do what it's set out to do. 330 00:22:39,280 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: And that is a classic example of Cobra effect. And 331 00:22:44,440 --> 00:22:46,960 Speaker 1: you know, again to the point about things not existing 332 00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: in a vacuum, people are smart. People were aware that 333 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: something went wrong. Right, So no, from my understanding there 334 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 1: they made some efforts to mitigate this, right, did they do? Yes, 335 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:03,119 Speaker 1: we'll get to that into two seconds. I was just 336 00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:04,960 Speaker 1: wanted to point out I sort of half made a 337 00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,119 Speaker 1: joke earlier about you know, we had gongs in the 338 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 1: list of of of ways of combating the sparrows, and 339 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 1: I said, well, he was just gonna startle them to death. Yeah, 340 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: that's exactly what it was. Not only would they use 341 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: gongs and drums, they'd use pots and pans and then 342 00:23:19,560 --> 00:23:23,120 Speaker 1: just make tons of noise and it would apparently, uh 343 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:26,320 Speaker 1: scare or startle the sparrows to the point where they 344 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:29,720 Speaker 1: would fall from the sky out of exhaustion. And in 345 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 1: addition to you know, targeting them with weapons, their nests 346 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,480 Speaker 1: were torn apart, their eggs were broken, any like, baby 347 00:23:36,600 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: fledgling sparrows that were found were murdered unequivocally, So this 348 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 1: would have been a pretty pretty gnarly time, you know, 349 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:47,560 Speaker 1: to be to be a kid. They're just you're literally 350 00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:50,439 Speaker 1: just stomping on baby sparrows all the time. I just 351 00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: I can't imagine this wouldn't have had some sort of 352 00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 1: traumatic impact. You know. It reminds me of there's a 353 00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:00,719 Speaker 1: story in the movie Mandy, which I the you and 354 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: I both love quite a bit, where the character of 355 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,080 Speaker 1: Mandy's telling a traumatic story about how her father forced 356 00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:11,000 Speaker 1: her to try to force her to murder a bag 357 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 1: of baby starlings, because starling similarly, you know, mess with crops. 358 00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 1: I think they were farmers as well. And it was 359 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 1: the way she describes the story was she had to 360 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:23,399 Speaker 1: she ran away in terror, because yeah, that's the pretty 361 00:24:23,560 --> 00:24:26,479 Speaker 1: gnarly thing to ask little kids to do. Um. So 362 00:24:26,520 --> 00:24:28,239 Speaker 1: I can't so, I can't imagine there wouldn't have been 363 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: psychological impacts of this kind of stuff on, you know, 364 00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:36,480 Speaker 1: these kids that would grow into maybe it was rather 365 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:41,480 Speaker 1: ruthless adults. Yeah. Also we should point out Malsa Dong, 366 00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,400 Speaker 1: who was, you know, the chairman of the government who 367 00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:51,680 Speaker 1: was also leading the ideation of this campaign. He knew 368 00:24:51,760 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: he didn't know anything about animals, He was not an ecologist, 369 00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:57,920 Speaker 1: He didn't want to talk about the plan. He didn't 370 00:24:57,960 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 1: have any experts come in and talk with him. He 371 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: just kind of decided there were four past they would 372 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,560 Speaker 1: call it the four Past plan and that and they 373 00:25:05,560 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: would kill those four pasts. Yeah. Yeah, And I like 374 00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:12,879 Speaker 1: that you mentioned the mandy aspect there, because kind of 375 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: like forcing kids or peer pressuring kids to kill wild animals, 376 00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:20,600 Speaker 1: it's a very strange psychological position to put any kid 377 00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: in you know what I mean absolutely um and uh 378 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 1: you know, and and of course, as you mentioned, the 379 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: result of all of this sparrow murder was in fact 380 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:39,800 Speaker 1: the Great Chinese Famine. But you know, once that, once 381 00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 1: this realization kind of came into focus for maw uh, 382 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: he decided that not throw the whole program out, you know, 383 00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:52,439 Speaker 1: with the with the bathwater. Um. He instead decided to 384 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:57,359 Speaker 1: replace the sparrow in that four past campaign with the 385 00:25:57,480 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 1: humble bed bug. And while you know this definitely made 386 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:04,240 Speaker 1: people a little less itchy, the genie was already out 387 00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:07,560 Speaker 1: of the bottle in terms of the famine aspect of it, 388 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:11,200 Speaker 1: so this would not have actually had any impact whatsoever 389 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: on you know, bringing the crops back. So the Great 390 00:26:14,760 --> 00:26:18,160 Speaker 1: Leap Forward ended, or the whole campaign ended in nineteen 391 00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: sixty two, uh, and with it also ended the four 392 00:26:22,040 --> 00:26:26,760 Speaker 1: Pest campaign. But in nine the government actually sort of 393 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: resurrected this program with a new round of propaganda posters 394 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 1: that you could see in Beijing, um and as well 395 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:41,359 Speaker 1: at the Southwest Agricultural University in Chong King that once again, 396 00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,800 Speaker 1: once again I am asking you to please murder these 397 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: four pests. And at this point it became rats, flies, mosquitoes, 398 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 1: and cockroaches. Yeah, leave the higher order animals alone, they said, 399 00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 1: But you know this one kind of this was less 400 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 1: of a spectacle because people were already killing rats, flies, mosquitoes, 401 00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: and cockroaches. It wasn't particularly new, or it wasn't a 402 00:27:10,760 --> 00:27:14,960 Speaker 1: weird question. But I love that you bring up modern opportunities. 403 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 1: Man for the cobra effect, Mexico City had a cobra 404 00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,080 Speaker 1: effect that didn't involve animals at all. We've ever been 405 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,240 Speaker 1: to Mexico City, you know, they've had an air pollution 406 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 1: problem for a long time. In nine, Mexico City said 407 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:36,679 Speaker 1: all right, we're gonna make this car rationing policy or 408 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: set a laws. Basically that's based on the numbers on 409 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:44,359 Speaker 1: your license plate. The way it worked is that it 410 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: was rationing the amount of days in a week you 411 00:27:50,160 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 1: could drive based on your license plate. But it didn't 412 00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: limit the number of cars you could buy. I think 413 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,240 Speaker 1: I missing car stuff years back. So what people did 414 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,160 Speaker 1: is they said, Okay, I've got a car. You know, 415 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: just off top of my head, you can't drive on 416 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:10,080 Speaker 1: Wednesdays or whatever, So I'll just try to find a 417 00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,720 Speaker 1: cheap car with a different license plate. And that will 418 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 1: be like my Wednesday car. And then the people who 419 00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,720 Speaker 1: could do it started buying these cars. Then, Uh, there 420 00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:26,639 Speaker 1: was a flood of cheap cars coming into Mexico City 421 00:28:26,720 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 1: that made it easier for people to buy a cheap 422 00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 1: you know, Wednesday car or whatever. That just made the 423 00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,000 Speaker 1: problem worse. They ended up with more cars in the 424 00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 1: city than they had when they started the plan. Oh 425 00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:42,560 Speaker 1: and that's also a city that suffers from traffic congestion, 426 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:46,720 Speaker 1: you know, problems, as any major city often does, but 427 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,280 Speaker 1: I believe it's particularly bad there. So this is like 428 00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: contributing to a whole another set of problems in addition 429 00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 1: to the pollution unintended consequence. Let's move to Bogata, Colombia. 430 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:03,120 Speaker 1: UM In that's involves a band uh similar to the 431 00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: Mexico City issue, also based on license plate numbers. And 432 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 1: in fact, they they looked to the Mexico City Initiative 433 00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: as as the influence for starting this program. UM. But 434 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 1: they tried to improve upon it by switching the combinations 435 00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: of days and license plate numbers every year. But of course, again, 436 00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: where there's a will, there's a loophole. Uh, And the 437 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: Colombian people figured out ways to kind of get around 438 00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,800 Speaker 1: the law by driving during off peak hours, which again 439 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:40,760 Speaker 1: contributes to additional pollution because now you've got more people 440 00:29:40,840 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 1: driving at what would have been kind of the sort 441 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:47,520 Speaker 1: of like reprieved time and contributing to overall worse congestion 442 00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:52,400 Speaker 1: and worse pollution. That's happening more consistently. Then. In two 443 00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: thousand five we have another example um involving the U 444 00:29:56,080 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: N inter Governmental Panel on Climate Change. We know about 445 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,680 Speaker 1: bees ben and the unintended consequences or the very least 446 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: the perceived unfairness of things like carbon credits. Right, yeah, 447 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 1: carbon credits the neoliberal solution to fighting pollution accidental rhyme 448 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:21,040 Speaker 1: hashtag yeah. The idea is that you can incentivize companies 449 00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 1: by paying them to have participate in this carbon credit 450 00:30:28,520 --> 00:30:30,640 Speaker 1: program without getting in the weeds, and that you can 451 00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: learn more about this in our other shows stuff they 452 00:30:32,520 --> 00:30:37,320 Speaker 1: don't want you to know. What happened is companies actually accelerated. 453 00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:41,800 Speaker 1: They ramped up the production of a gas called HFC 454 00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 1: DASH twenty three, huge pollutant byproduct of coolant production, helped 455 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: them cash in on the credits. The coolant is bad 456 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 1: for the environment. There's another there's another example from ours, 457 00:30:54,160 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 1: our fair state of Georgia in which ridiculous history is based. 458 00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: It's called the pig radic Asian program started two thousand 459 00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,320 Speaker 1: and seven. Uh. Some people might have thought it was crazy, 460 00:31:05,640 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: you know, with the idea of somebody rationalizing owning high 461 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: powered firearms by saying, how how am I going to 462 00:31:11,560 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: take out forty Ferrell hogs or something like that. I 463 00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: was hoping that one. Yeah, who is not only a 464 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: very talented musician, he is a masterful twitter. Yes, yes, 465 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:32,120 Speaker 1: and uh, Georgia made this pig radic eradication program in 466 00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:38,280 Speaker 1: Fort Benning. Specifically, locals are alleged to buy pigtails in 467 00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: bulk from Butcher's to collect the bounty. And as they 468 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,920 Speaker 1: do this, the wild pig population continues to grow, at 469 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: least during the years of the pig eradication program. Uh. 470 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 1: And oh side note, we've got an excellent opportunity. While 471 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: we're talking about Fort Benning for a little moment, we 472 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:09,680 Speaker 1: like to call next with the facts enough just for 473 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:17,840 Speaker 1: you right now, I'm here. Yes, so, Fort Benning is 474 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,840 Speaker 1: probably gonna be no more soon because it is named 475 00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: after a Confederate general. Like a lot of things in 476 00:32:24,080 --> 00:32:27,360 Speaker 1: Georgia unfortunately, but there has been an active campaign to 477 00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 1: remove that name. So I guess theder that a good thing. 478 00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,600 Speaker 1: This wasn't the guy that was also like a high lansman, 479 00:32:34,120 --> 00:32:36,200 Speaker 1: so that was that was Gordon, who also has a 480 00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: ford in Georgia. Yeah, in my hometown of Augusta. Benning 481 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:46,479 Speaker 1: was a big fan of seating from the Union and um, 482 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: you know, like people can figure out probably what a 483 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: stands this were. But thankfully there's a lot of great 484 00:32:51,920 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: people such as Alwin Cash, who was awarded the Medal 485 00:32:56,720 --> 00:32:59,280 Speaker 1: of Honor. He would be a great person to put 486 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,960 Speaker 1: the name on the or we do Henry Flipper, who 487 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:06,080 Speaker 1: was born in Thomasville, Georgia as a slave but went 488 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,400 Speaker 1: on to be the first African American to graduate from 489 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:12,240 Speaker 1: West Point Military Academy. So those are some good names 490 00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: we could put on the fort. And if you want 491 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,760 Speaker 1: to find out more about, you know, the story and 492 00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:21,080 Speaker 1: other potential names that are being flowed around the a 493 00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:23,960 Speaker 1: j C has a great write up just titled Fort 494 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 1: Benning and Fort Gordon to be Renamed, and that is 495 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: written by Jeremy Redman, So give that a look. It's 496 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: a you're a pretty important story going around. Yeah, to 497 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: my knowledge, for Gordon has not yet been renamed. They're 498 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: looking at I could take so long, just have a 499 00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,040 Speaker 1: new name on it. Man, what's the ideal have would 500 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,239 Speaker 1: be fort Nole and then one fort Bed Yeah, and 501 00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:49,080 Speaker 1: then the s s Max Williams Destroyership off the coast. 502 00:33:49,560 --> 00:34:06,080 Speaker 1: Uh huh and Max with the facts indeed? Sure for you? Yes, 503 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 1: and and Max when when I hear this on air, 504 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,880 Speaker 1: I'm hoping it comes with a sound cue with the 505 00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 1: Max with the facts. We can make it a whole thing. 506 00:34:15,920 --> 00:34:20,880 Speaker 1: Just I'm trying to read your your facial expression getting 507 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:24,760 Speaker 1: a very very yeah, gives very weird nods. Let's move on. Yeah, 508 00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,520 Speaker 1: let's it's not just Max is weird nods. They're my 509 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:29,960 Speaker 1: favorite and if they're the weirdest of nods. But yeah, 510 00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: moving past racist you know military basis, Hey, accidental rhyme, 511 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 1: racist military basis. We are now in Australia and the 512 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: year two thousand nineteen when Senator Pauline Hansen Um proposes 513 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:49,320 Speaker 1: a program called Cash for cane Toads. I love the commercial. 514 00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 1: You know, Hello, good day, Do you have a bunch 515 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: of cane toads? Would you like some cash? Trades or 516 00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:59,120 Speaker 1: cane toads for cash. One eight hundred toads for cash. 517 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:01,439 Speaker 1: I don't know how the numbers will work up. And 518 00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,200 Speaker 1: and these are not the kind of toads you want 519 00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:05,719 Speaker 1: to lick unless you want to you know, die. Uh. 520 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,279 Speaker 1: And there's a different kind of trip, the trip to 521 00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:12,160 Speaker 1: the afterlife. And that's because these cane toads are incredibly 522 00:35:12,200 --> 00:35:16,600 Speaker 1: toxic and they're incredibly invasive. Yeah, check out you can 523 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 1: get a look at the cane toad. There's a great 524 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:22,640 Speaker 1: article written on this in The Conversation by David Smerdon, 525 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,600 Speaker 1: who is a professor or assistant professor at the School 526 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,120 Speaker 1: of Economics in the University of Queensland. The economics of 527 00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:33,280 Speaker 1: cash for cane toads a textbook example of perverse incentives. 528 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:37,600 Speaker 1: The idea would you would give welfare recipients ten cents 529 00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 1: for every living toad that they collected. They weren't killing 530 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,200 Speaker 1: the toads. He collected them while they were alive. They 531 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 1: gave them to the local council or government, and those 532 00:35:48,480 --> 00:35:51,719 Speaker 1: folks would kill the toads in large freezers. They would 533 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,719 Speaker 1: freeze them to death. And while this while this cane 534 00:35:55,719 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 1: toade situation hasn't reached the level of Cobras Inda or 535 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,360 Speaker 1: rats in Vietnam. There's a great line that Professor Smritan 536 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:09,279 Speaker 1: ends his article with where he says, this proposal was 537 00:36:09,320 --> 00:36:12,880 Speaker 1: no doubt made with the best of intentions. Unfortunately, in reality, 538 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:17,120 Speaker 1: the only real beneficiaries would be economics teachers, which for 539 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:20,320 Speaker 1: an economics professor is like a mic drop moment. Uh. 540 00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,319 Speaker 1: There's another example of Cobra effect that I think will 541 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 1: be familiar to all of our fellow ridiculous historians who 542 00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:32,840 Speaker 1: are denizens of the Internet. It is called the Streisand effect, 543 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:39,319 Speaker 1: where your request to suppress or remove something from the 544 00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:43,760 Speaker 1: public eye only brings more attention to it. It's named 545 00:36:43,840 --> 00:36:49,440 Speaker 1: that because Barbara Streisand the musician in two thousand three, 546 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:56,359 Speaker 1: she attempted to take down some public aerial photos of 547 00:36:56,400 --> 00:37:00,360 Speaker 1: her mansion in Malibu. Barbara Streisand has had quite a 548 00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:04,480 Speaker 1: successful career. You can imagine the mansion is pretty swank. 549 00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,240 Speaker 1: The issue was that the folks that took the photo 550 00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:12,760 Speaker 1: were TMZ or you know, a journalistic or pop culture outfit. 551 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,759 Speaker 1: There was something called the California Coastal Records Project. They 552 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 1: document the coastline for study for science and before she 553 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:28,240 Speaker 1: before the news about her contacting them came out, nobody cared. 554 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:31,000 Speaker 1: The only way you would look at their archives is 555 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: if you were somehow involved in the study of beach 556 00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:38,520 Speaker 1: front erosion in California. Yes exactly. I mean it's it's 557 00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,320 Speaker 1: true of anything, you know, when you make a stink 558 00:37:40,360 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 1: about it publicly like that, it piques people's interests every time. 559 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,320 Speaker 1: Yeah exactly. So I want to point that out because 560 00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:51,960 Speaker 1: it brings up something crucial to remember. Even if we 561 00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:55,000 Speaker 1: are attempted to look back with the benefit of retrospect 562 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,360 Speaker 1: and say, oh wow, I can't believe these people didn't 563 00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,239 Speaker 1: think of all these uh terrible consequences, you have to 564 00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,840 Speaker 1: remember that the Cobra effect is still very much in play, 565 00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,120 Speaker 1: and it's not just India, It's not just the British 566 00:38:08,239 --> 00:38:11,880 Speaker 1: raj It's not just Cobra's. You have to think through 567 00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 1: the consequences of your actions. We say this as fans 568 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:19,480 Speaker 1: of improv A little planning does matter. Just plan a 569 00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,800 Speaker 1: little think about what could or could not go wrong. 570 00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,719 Speaker 1: But I'll tell you what went great this week. Noal 571 00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,960 Speaker 1: in my opinion, was our two part episode on the 572 00:38:30,000 --> 00:38:33,840 Speaker 1: Cobra effect, and we didn't even mention Cobra insurance. Thank goodness. 573 00:38:34,239 --> 00:38:36,520 Speaker 1: No oh yeah, that's like an acronym though, isn't that 574 00:38:36,719 --> 00:38:38,880 Speaker 1: what I always wanting with? That stands for I forget? 575 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,440 Speaker 1: But yeah, this is a mainly intentional two partner, uh, 576 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 1: a pretty beefy two partner, if I might add, So 577 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:48,600 Speaker 1: you're welcome. I know there was some gross stuff in here, 578 00:38:48,880 --> 00:38:51,560 Speaker 1: but I think there was also some illuminating and of 579 00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,200 Speaker 1: course ridiculous stuff in here as well. So huge thanks 580 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 1: to you ridiculous historians for tuning in. Huge thanks to 581 00:38:59,239 --> 00:39:03,360 Speaker 1: super producer Max Williams Alex Williams, who composed this banging 582 00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:05,960 Speaker 1: bop that you're hearing in your very ears right now. 583 00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:11,719 Speaker 1: And thanks to our show's own Barbara streisand Jonathan Strickland 584 00:39:11,760 --> 00:39:16,240 Speaker 1: ak the quister. There we go. That one landed for backs, 585 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:20,279 Speaker 1: thanks of course to Eaves, Jeff, Go to Christopher Haciotis, 586 00:39:20,280 --> 00:39:24,560 Speaker 1: Thanks to our friends over at Ridiculous Romance Eli and 587 00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: Diana Banks. Thanks to our good pals over at Ridiculous Crime, 588 00:39:29,280 --> 00:39:33,800 Speaker 1: Zarin Burnett and Elizabeth Dutton. And there's one more thing 589 00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: that we have to announce, right Noel, Yes are good pals. 590 00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:42,719 Speaker 1: Mark Kendall and Bill Whorley have just dropped the trailer 591 00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 1: for their new ridiculous show, Ridiculous News, giving you a 592 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:52,200 Speaker 1: weekly dose of topical news e type items, as well 593 00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:57,160 Speaker 1: as a more evergreen deep dive into concepts that are 594 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,160 Speaker 1: going to help you wrap your head around the ridiculous 595 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,839 Speaker 1: that is the news, which is, of course, you know, 596 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:07,120 Speaker 1: modern history. So it's very much in the wheelhouse what 597 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:09,759 Speaker 1: we do here, what they do on Ridiculous Romance and 598 00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 1: on Ridiculous crime, and we're happy to welcome them to 599 00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:15,520 Speaker 1: the family. So check out the trailer for Ridiculous News, 600 00:40:15,520 --> 00:40:18,319 Speaker 1: available now on Apple podcast, the I Heart Radio, Apple, 601 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:22,399 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Yes, yes, over the moon. 602 00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:26,080 Speaker 1: We are so excited. We know you'll love these shows. 603 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,719 Speaker 1: Don't take our word for it. Check them out today 604 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:32,560 Speaker 1: thanks to the entire Ridiculous universe. And you know what 605 00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,520 Speaker 1: special shout out to Max for. Uh. We're hurting so 606 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: many cats on this thing, man, I can't wait. You 607 00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:43,360 Speaker 1: know what's next? No, what, Let's get some new T 608 00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:47,239 Speaker 1: shirt ideas, Let's do some uh, let's do some live appearances. 609 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:49,479 Speaker 1: What what do you think about a what did Zarin 610 00:40:49,560 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 1: call it ridiculous? Palooza, Ridicular Ridicula Paloza. There you go, there, 611 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:01,759 Speaker 1: thank you. Yes, we'll see you there, folks, and you 612 00:41:01,800 --> 00:41:11,239 Speaker 1: know next time. For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, 613 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:13,960 Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever 614 00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.