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Speaker 1: Jedadiah Jenkins is a New York Times best selling author

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Speaker 1: of the books To Shake the Sleeping Self and Like

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Speaker 1: Streams to the Ocean. His new book, Mother Nature just

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Speaker 1: came out in November of twenty twenty three, and Jedediah

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Speaker 1: is here to talk about the complex relationships between mother

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Speaker 1: and son with completely different views on topics like politics, sexuality,

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Speaker 1: and religion. Jedadiah, Hi, We're so happy you're here.

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Speaker 2: Welcome.

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Speaker 3: I'm so happy I'm there. I wish I was in

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Speaker 3: Nashville with you in the physical space.

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Speaker 1: But I know next time I sell it.

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Speaker 3: Next time I sound like I'm talking about that documentary

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Speaker 3: Love Has Won. Have you watched it?

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Speaker 1: Oh?

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Speaker 2: What is this?

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Speaker 3: Oh my god? I'm sorry from.

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Speaker 2: Running it down the immediate tangent.

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Speaker 3: But it's about we love it to an HBO doc.

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Speaker 3: It's a cult. It's like, it's this woman who thinks

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Speaker 3: this woman from Kansas, you know, a blonde woman who

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Speaker 3: thinks that she is God, Mother God. She thinks she's

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Speaker 3: Joan of Arc reincarnated, Marilyn and Roe reincarnated. Wow, Jesus.

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Speaker 3: And anyway, she starts a cult and everything is about

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Speaker 3: the spiritual. But then they'll say in the physical. They go, well,

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Speaker 3: you know, we met in the physical. I'm so glad

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Speaker 3: we're meeting in the physical. Like there's certain lingo in

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Speaker 3: that doc that I now like, like use, like her

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Speaker 3: followers don't think she sleeps. She has like etheric meetings,

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Speaker 3: which is they go to a lay person. She looks

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Speaker 3: like she's napping, but she's actually meeting with the spirit guides,

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Speaker 3: and like it's just a video of her napping. It's

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Speaker 3: it is such a good doc. I've watched it.

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Speaker 1: So you're saying you wish you were with us in

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Speaker 1: the physical, not just the spiritual today.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, not just the etheric ethereal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Have you watched Escaping Twin Flames?

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Speaker 3: So so that is a great companion piece because it's

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Speaker 3: similar energy, but love has one is darker or or

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Speaker 3: just more intent, more intense, like like involves like death.

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Speaker 2: It's oh wow.

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Speaker 1: Okay, okay, so I have to watch both of these apparently.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but the Twin Flames when that leader guy who

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Speaker 3: thinks he's Jesus but like hot Jesus.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, it's unbelievable the shit that comes out of his mouth.

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Speaker 4: I can't believe that he takes himself seriously and that

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Speaker 4: people around the world do.

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Speaker 3: No. I know, I mean, but that just shows you

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Speaker 3: how lonely and desperate for connection people are.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: True, That's what I think when I watch in cult

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Speaker 3: dogs and what I what I think when I remember

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Speaker 3: my like deeply evangelical roots of like when I was

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Speaker 3: basically in the world's biggest cull and like I was

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Speaker 3: so afraid of being exiled if I didn't believe, you know,

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Speaker 3: was so afraid if I didn't fall on line, And like,

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Speaker 3: I don't know, a lot of those cult dogs really

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Speaker 3: ring true for like the dogmatic way I used to

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Speaker 3: practice religion. Yeah, I'm like, oh, I know this.

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Speaker 1: Feeling, yeah, which I want to get And just a

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Speaker 1: really good transition right there. Well, first I was gonna say,

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Speaker 1: you mentioned connecting and things like that, and I have

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Speaker 1: to tell you I have been hearing about you for

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Speaker 1: years from Chip, Yes literally years. He's like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: you have to read this book. And there's been multiple

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Speaker 1: books now, and so when this book came out Mother Nature,

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Speaker 1: Mother Nature, we were like, no, we have to get

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Speaker 1: him on the podcast. You guys actually finally met at

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Speaker 1: a book signing recently, right yeah, Nashville.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah.

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Speaker 4: I mean, look, it's embarrassing to say, but I am

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Speaker 4: fangirling right now. And I called Kelly today and I

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Speaker 4: was like, look, I really like he's so brilliant, he

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Speaker 4: speaks so well. I'm scared I'm gonna make this interview

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Speaker 4: about me because Jedd, I've got to say thank you,

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Speaker 4: because the parallels that you write about in your life

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Speaker 4: to my life, it's unbelievable to me.

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Speaker 2: I you know, I struggle. I'm gay.

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Speaker 4: Two, I struggle with like identifying with the gay community

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Speaker 4: and a very.

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Speaker 2: Similar way I wasn't.

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Speaker 4: I was raised in a religious household, but not evangelical,

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Speaker 4: Like I don't even know if my mother's ever read

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Speaker 4: the Bible. It's just like this is what she thinks

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Speaker 4: people should believe and how people should act. And so

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Speaker 4: I've struggled with the acceptance. Like my mother loves me,

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Speaker 4: but she never asked me. She rarely asked me about

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Speaker 4: any sort of relationship stuff because it's it's it's uncomfortable

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Speaker 4: for her, and it's uncomfortable for me to even try

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Speaker 4: and push her. So to have you in the world

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Speaker 4: giving voice to people like yourself and me is a

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Speaker 4: gift and I just want to say thank you because

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Speaker 4: I think it's really important. I think there's so many

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Speaker 4: people that feel that way, that are proud. I'm not

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Speaker 4: shameful of being gay, but I too would take a

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Speaker 4: pill and change it. Like, when I hear you say

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Speaker 4: these things, it's like, holy fuck, I could never have

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Speaker 4: put them into words.

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Speaker 3: So thank you, Oh my god, thank you so much.

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Speaker 3: I think one of the one of the biggest fears

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Speaker 3: of being raised in Nashville and in you know, not

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Speaker 3: only in an evangelical church or whatever, but just like

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Speaker 3: in Christian culture in the South, was the fear of,

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Speaker 3: like I said, exile, the fear of well. And when

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Speaker 3: you are raised, there's like a specifically insidious nature to

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Speaker 3: being queer in a non affirming community because you realize

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Speaker 3: you're gay young and it's not like a skin color

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Speaker 3: that you can look across the lunch room and be like, oh,

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Speaker 3: that kid looks like me, I should sit with him.

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Speaker 3: You're actually mortified to sit with someone that moves like

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Speaker 3: with you because that would actually out you. So you

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Speaker 3: go inward, you go towards shame, you go towards hiding,

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Speaker 3: and like so much while your brain is going through

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Speaker 3: these incredibly important changes of discovering self and trying things out.

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Speaker 3: You're learning that if people knew who I really was,

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Speaker 3: I would be in trouble if people found this out

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Speaker 3: about me. So you learn hiding secrecy, which is why

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Speaker 3: so many adult game men, so much of their sexuality

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Speaker 3: has lived out in the taboo and in the shadows,

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Speaker 3: and they're actually only turned on by being scandalous because

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Speaker 3: that's where sexuality was groomed inside their minds, and.

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Speaker 4: It's also being reinforced by media and yeah, or middle school,

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Speaker 4: everyone's making gay jokes and like, I mean, I'm guilty

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Speaker 4: of doing the same thing. I amplified it to as

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Speaker 4: a you know, self preservation sort of tool totally, and then.

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Speaker 2: That just is a reverberation in your mind.

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Speaker 3: But that was like the true joy and unbelievable privilege

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Speaker 3: of the fact that I've scanned the world into having

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Speaker 3: this job where I write about my own thoughts and

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Speaker 3: it like is my job, and then I get to

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Speaker 3: meet people like people like you that say, like, oh

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Speaker 3: my god, me too. That's so helpful. Is that my

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Speaker 3: true fear was being found out as a child, and

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Speaker 3: so like somehow I made my entire adult career, telling

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Speaker 3: the world my every thought and everything about me and

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Speaker 3: just being like, as an act of rebellion to that

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Speaker 3: feeling that raised me, I'm going to be the most open,

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Speaker 3: the most confessional, so that there is no gotcha, there's

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Speaker 3: no secret, there's no skeleton in any closet, open every

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Speaker 3: door and come on inside and let's have some hot

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Speaker 3: chocolate and hang out. It's like and that to me,

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Speaker 3: is this like incredible freedom that I thought was completely impossible.

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Speaker 2: As a sixteen year old.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so you saying that is like my ultimate dream,

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Speaker 3: so I think.

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Speaker 2: You yeah, yeah, well thank you.

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Speaker 4: It's like just being able to read it and the

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Speaker 4: final chap not to skip to the final chapter, but

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Speaker 4: like I think the final chapter of your book makes

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Speaker 4: it so universal to anyone, Like it's you know, it's

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Speaker 4: it's not anyone that has struggled with relating to their

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Speaker 4: family for whatever reason can can relate the way that

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Speaker 4: you sort.

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Speaker 2: Of bring that all together at the end of the book.

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Speaker 3: So I think, you know, it's such a little trickster.

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Speaker 2: She's so funny. I love. Yeah, she's exactly like my

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Speaker 2: mother too.

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Speaker 4: It's like crazy, like the way like all of my

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Speaker 4: friends love my mom, Like she's the most fun to

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Speaker 4: be around, but there's this thing between and she's my

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Speaker 4: best friend, Like I don't know what I will do

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Speaker 4: when she's no longer around. In fact, and I'm giving

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Speaker 4: her a she doesn't listen to them, she doesn't even

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Speaker 4: know what a podcast is, but I'm giving her a

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Speaker 4: copy of the book for Christmas. It's a great way

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Speaker 4: to have the conversation without having the conversation, and then

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Speaker 4: hopefully it will open the door to more conversation with her,

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Speaker 4: because I, like you said, like I feel like I

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Speaker 4: have it's it is in order for me to feel

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Speaker 4: redemption or freedom, like I have to be brave enough

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Speaker 4: to put on my big boy pants to do what

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Speaker 4: you're doing.

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Speaker 2: And that starts with the conversation with my mother.

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Speaker 3: So well, and I wouldn't like I wouldn't have had

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Speaker 3: these conversations with my mother if I didn't want to

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Speaker 3: write a book about it, Like this is like this

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Speaker 3: is like I don't know, I'm like slowly developing this

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Speaker 3: whole theory of like narrativizing your life because it actually

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Speaker 3: forces you out out of cowardice into making decisions. It's like,

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Speaker 3: are you the person you want to be. And if

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Speaker 3: you're like having to write about your life, then you're like,

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Speaker 3: you better put a plot point in here and not

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Speaker 3: be lazy, because it's like, I don't think I would

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Speaker 3: have had that very scary life defining, you know, conversation

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Speaker 3: with my mom in that car had I not known

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Speaker 3: I had to for the book, right, I would have

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Speaker 3: just kept put kicking it down the road.

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Speaker 1: Well you even did, and we'll get into this in

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Speaker 1: just a second, but it took you almost the whole

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Speaker 1: trip to be able to get to the conversation that

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Speaker 1: you were actually wanting to have. So that's the case

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Speaker 1: and point.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, isn't that just like the perfect example of procrastination.

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Speaker 3: It's like you're just like especially we all have this,

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Speaker 3: I think unless you're some sort of like elevated genius.

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Speaker 3: Like when there's a hard conversation and I'm so afraid

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Speaker 3: of the answer to the question I need to ask,

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Speaker 3: I just am so afraid, I'll just keep pushing it, yeah,

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Speaker 3: kicking it down until the next day, the next day.

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Speaker 3: And I actually have a few friends who maybe their

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Speaker 3: Enneagram eights or it's their wing or something where they

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Speaker 3: like move towards conflict the moment there's a hard conversation,

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Speaker 3: They're like.

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Speaker 4: Well, I am one of those people all seven jed right,

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Speaker 4: I'm a seven to two.

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Speaker 3: I'm a full seven and I'm a wing six, which

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Speaker 3: means I'm like rule follower slash so afraid.

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Speaker 1: Well, also, you worry if you have that six? Yeah? Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and I'm a four. So I'm like, let's get in this,

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Speaker 1: Let's go deep, let's talk about all the hard emotions.

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Speaker 1: Let's feel it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, love yeah yeah.

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Speaker 3: And to encourage your foreigners, you are deeply unique and

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Speaker 3: no one is like you.

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Speaker 1: You don't know how much that means to me. I

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Speaker 1: needed that today. Thank you. Let's clue the listeners in

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Speaker 1: a little bit though, because we are going to talk

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Speaker 1: about the book a lot. Can you give the listeners

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Speaker 1: just a backstory of your relationship with your mom.

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Speaker 3: So, I grew up in Nashville. My mom is an

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Speaker 3: amazing woman. My parents divorced when I was four, I think,

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Speaker 3: and she loves the Lord Jesus is her best friend.

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Speaker 3: Her church community is everything. And I grew up in

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Speaker 3: that world. And when my parents, So, my parents were

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Speaker 3: famous in the late seventies and eighties. They walked across

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Speaker 3: America and it was a big National geograph. They were

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Speaker 3: on the cover of National Geographic, they wrote for National Geographic.

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Speaker 3: Then they wrote books about it, which sold like books

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Speaker 3: I think sold twelve million copies, which to make sense

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Speaker 3: of that, it's like a best selling book in today's

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Speaker 3: world sells one hundred and fifty thousand copies. Oh, because

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Speaker 3: there's just so many more books. So like that was

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Speaker 3: more of the era of monoculture where it's like if

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Speaker 3: you were on Good Morning America, fifty million people saw you. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: So they were like in that moment anyway, they were

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Speaker 3: like America's sweethearts. And then the marriage fell apart when

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Speaker 3: I was so young that like I grew up in

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Speaker 3: this shadow of like fallen glory, where like things weren't

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Speaker 3: talked about or they were said with like a sadness.

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Speaker 3: But anyway, my mom to make sense of her life,

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Speaker 3: and it's her nature and her sincere relationship with God,

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Speaker 3: like her whole life is God is Jesus. And so

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Speaker 3: we grew up and you know, she was a single mom.

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Speaker 3: We grew up always at church Wednesday, Saturday night, Sunday,

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Speaker 3: Sunday night. And you know, I may I had a

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Speaker 3: lot of friends at church. It was so you know,

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Speaker 3: she like found other church. She was like, you need

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Speaker 3: to go on this church retreat. You need to go

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Speaker 3: on this summer camp like and I was like no,

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Speaker 3: And then of course I made friends and then it

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Speaker 3: made church fun. But my mom and I, like, ever

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Speaker 3: since I came out to her when I was twenty

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Speaker 3: one or twenty two, it's just been such a conflict.

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Speaker 3: Like she just deeply believes that my sexuality is the result.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to put words in her mouth, but

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Speaker 3: I would. She's insinuated that she believes that the sin

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Speaker 3: of my father's infidelity opened the door to allowing demonic

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Speaker 3: spirits to deceive me. And you know, and so she's

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Speaker 3: just so convinced that my sexuality is not God's will

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Speaker 3: for my life. And yet we are best friends, Like

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Speaker 3: we love each other. We talk all the time. She's

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Speaker 3: undyingly loving to me, undying support. And it's taken me,

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Speaker 3: you know, my whole adult life to like find this

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Speaker 3: understanding of like she's loving me the best way she

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Speaker 3: knows how. She really does believe and she was trained

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Speaker 3: to believe by every teacher in her Christian community that

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Speaker 3: like what I am is a deception and is dangerous

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Speaker 3: and deadly. And then you know, I'm a child of

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Speaker 3: the eighties, as I'm a baby playing with my little ponies.

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Speaker 3: She's hearing at church that there's this new gay cancer

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Speaker 3: called aides that kills gay men, and the pastor from

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Speaker 3: the pulpit is saying, this is, you know, the wages

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Speaker 3: of Sinna's death. So that in that shadow of this

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Speaker 3: like interesting relationship, I started getting. You know, my friends

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Speaker 3: and even my mom's friends were like, Jed, you should

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Speaker 3: write a book about your relationship with your mom because

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Speaker 3: it's it's strange, like you both disagree about everything, politics, religion, capitalism, whatever.

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Speaker 3: It is like the only thing we both like diners,

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Speaker 3: going to the movies, road trips, podcast like certain historical

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Speaker 3: podet It's hard actually to find ones that you know,

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Speaker 3: I love that cringe over, but like, but I just

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Speaker 3: it was an interesting like commission and once you know,

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Speaker 3: sometimes like you let life talk to you and like

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Speaker 3: if three or four friends or like sources tell you something,

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Speaker 3: you know, like you should start a podcast. You hear

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Speaker 3: it from a friend and you're like, okay, and then

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Speaker 3: you hear it from another person who you haven't talked

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Speaker 3: to in fifteen years and then you hear it from

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Speaker 3: your uncle and then you're like, Okay, that's interesting that

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Speaker 3: like something's going on, and just people were like, you know,

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Speaker 3: your your relationship with your mom is so interesting, especially

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Speaker 3: in like the Trump era, in the like everyone seems

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Speaker 3: to be cleaving these relationships and like separating, Like people

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Speaker 3: seem to be so polarized to use such a bankrupt

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Speaker 3: and tired word, And yet my mom and I stay

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Speaker 3: in relationship and I actually don't know why other than

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Speaker 3: I just love her and I'm scared not to have

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Speaker 3: a mom. But I thought it was an exciting and

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Speaker 3: interesting challenge to be like, let me really take a

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Speaker 3: magnifying glass to our relationship and to her as a

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Speaker 3: person and see what I learned. Yeah, that's what the

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Speaker 3: book is.

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Speaker 4: Well, So I have a question about what you just said,

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Speaker 4: because there's a quote in your book that really struck

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Speaker 4: me where you say, uh, you say, I wonder if

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Speaker 4: I've been a good son, if I've chased myself at

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Speaker 4: the cost of being part of a family, And that

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Speaker 4: really struck me because I grew up in a little

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Speaker 4: tongue called Birdsnests Virginia. I knew when I was in

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Speaker 4: fifth grade that I was gay. I held it in,

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Speaker 4: I had girlfriends, did all the things, and went to college,

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Speaker 4: and immediately from college moved to New York City, and

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Speaker 4: then I moved to Los Angeles and I was I

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Speaker 4: flew the coup.

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Speaker 2: I probably wouldn't be alive if I stayed.

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Speaker 4: Home, and I recognized that I sacrificed my family my

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Speaker 4: family to find myself, and I'm glad that I did.

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Speaker 4: And I've never felt anything but love for my family.

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Speaker 4: Even when I came out. My dad said, I love

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Speaker 4: you more now than ever, though we don't really talk

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Speaker 4: about it anymore. But I wonder if that's the reason

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Speaker 4: why you held on to your mom and these times

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Speaker 4: when other people are like separating themselves from family, is

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Speaker 4: because so much of your life you pushed her away,

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Speaker 4: you needed to push her away, and now that you

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Speaker 4: know yourself, you need her again.

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Speaker 3: I think that's an incredibly astute, inaccurate observation. I am

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Speaker 3: also very interested in smuggling medicine in with poison, and

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Speaker 3: like how so often I mean, I think like of

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Speaker 3: a church community where I think that like certain beliefs

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Speaker 3: and belief structures of you know in evangelical church are

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Speaker 3: not only incorrect to the reality of the universe, but

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Speaker 3: like evil. And yet if that is your entire community,

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Speaker 3: if that is your friends, if you're sick and they

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Speaker 3: bring you food, they all pray for you and surround

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Speaker 3: you when you have cancer, you're you know, like that

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Speaker 3: is the most that sort of like building community structure

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Speaker 3: around a set of beliefs, even if some of those

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Speaker 3: beliefs smuggled in are from the patriarchy, or are from

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Speaker 3: selfish greed, or are just from a desire to control

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Speaker 3: women or whatever. It is, like you can smuggle in

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Speaker 3: a lot of things with some sugar and some like

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Speaker 3: good stuff and so like I think, I think sometimes

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Speaker 3: it sucks, but sometimes like I'm like you, I'm so

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Speaker 3: glad I moved away and chased myself and it cost

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Speaker 3: me like being an integral tight part of my family,

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Speaker 3: but I'm so glad. I mean that's an important step.

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Speaker 3: And like you know, like every generation before us is

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Speaker 3: like we made sacrifices so that our kids would have

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Speaker 3: it better than we did. Like that's that's like the

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Speaker 3: thing our grandparents said. And that's kind of ending with

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Speaker 3: millennials and gen z because we've you know, built such

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Speaker 3: a world where we're so spoiled that it's like and

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Speaker 3: we were like raping the world of its natural resources

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Speaker 3: during the Baby Boomer and Greatest generation. So like that

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Speaker 3: sort of like whatever expansive suburban dream is actually built

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Speaker 3: on borrowed carbon from jen alpha. But all that to say,

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Speaker 3: I do feel like so often something good comes at

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Speaker 3: a cost, and just like the imperfect nature of things, like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: like it would be nice to stay home and be

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Speaker 3: a part of a family, but at the cost of myself,

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Speaker 3: what am I going to do? Marry? Marry a woman

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Speaker 3: who loves me? And then of course, and I know

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Speaker 3: these people, yeah who like who tried to make it

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Speaker 3: work and have kids and then in their mid forties.

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Speaker 4: That like.

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Speaker 3: That truth of who they are is now so pressure

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Speaker 3: pressurized into an explosive, you know, Like it's like if

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Speaker 3: you don't let off steam, a thing explodes. Like have

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Speaker 3: you ever seen those whales that die on it on

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Speaker 3: the beach and they and they fill with gas, they're

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Speaker 3: decomposing and then they explode. It's unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: But I think I know what I'm googling after this.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, just google exploding whale, and there's like,

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Speaker 3: there's a lot of ones I don't want to smell

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Speaker 3: that no, including there's this beach in Oregon where a

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Speaker 3: huge whale washed up. This is in the eighties and

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Speaker 3: the local police debarment said, well, how do we remove

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Speaker 3: this whale? I guess we blow it up? So they

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Speaker 3: filled it with dynamite and this is on the local news.

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Speaker 3: They blow it up. Unfortunately, seventy two hundred pound chunks

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Speaker 3: of blubber fly through the air and land on all

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Speaker 3: the cars that have come to watch the thing, and

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Speaker 3: like dent and just break all the windows and everyone's

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Speaker 3: covered in guts.

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Speaker 1: Discussing all that.

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Speaker 3: To say, if you don't if you don't like release

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Speaker 3: the pressure and be who you are and like pursue

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Speaker 3: that true of who you are, it will like it

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Speaker 3: will pressurize and become an explosive. I'm a like this

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Speaker 3: is you just see it time and time again. And

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Speaker 3: what's so interesting about getting older? I still feel and

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Speaker 3: am young. I'm only forty, but like that sense of

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Speaker 3: like I've now lived long enough to see people try

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Speaker 3: to be one way and watch that crash and burn.

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Speaker 3: They try to be the way that they were told

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Speaker 3: they must be when they were a teenager. And that's

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Speaker 3: like and to see how that by not being your

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Speaker 3: authentic self, it comes at an incredible cost.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to ask because and I want to tell

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Speaker 1: the listeners too, a little bit about how you got

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Speaker 1: to even going on this trip with your mom. But

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Speaker 1: one of the questions you ask in the book is

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Speaker 1: how do I stay in relationship with family when our

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Speaker 1: differences pull us apart? And I think your friends that

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Speaker 1: encourage you to write this book makes such a good

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Speaker 1: point just about that in relation to what's happening in

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Speaker 1: our world in general right now, right Like we have

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Speaker 1: this mentality, it seems that's very black and white about people.

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Speaker 1: We can be friends with relationships if you have this

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Speaker 1: political view and I have this one, like there's no

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Speaker 1: common ground anymore. And so was that a big driving

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Speaker 1: force for you deciding like I want to maintain this

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Speaker 1: relationship with my mother even though, as you said, we

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Speaker 1: have nothing in common. Like what was the factor that

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Speaker 1: really just made you push to say, like, Okay, I

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Speaker 1: have to find the common ground with her, and I

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Speaker 1: have to decide if this relationship is one that can

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Speaker 1: be functioning for me even with different different views.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's a great question, and that really is such

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Speaker 3: a big impetus for the book itself, was what is

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Speaker 3: that cost benefit analysis? And I do my best writing,

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Speaker 3: and I can really only write about things that bother me,

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Speaker 3: Like I needed to be like a thorn in my shoe. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: because that's like what gets my mind going. And I

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Speaker 3: kept seeing I mean I've seen it, you know now

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Speaker 3: for ten years, like the growth of internet discourse, and

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Speaker 3: just then the internet discourse spills over into general cultural

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Speaker 3: discourse just like if this person is toxic, get them

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Speaker 3: out of here, like cut them out, like or the

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Speaker 3: like concept creep and the like slippery slope concept of

431
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Speaker 3: like well, if they don't approve of this, that means

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Speaker 3: they don't approve of you, and that means they got

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Speaker 3: to go. And if they don't like love all of you,

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Speaker 3: And there's this like it's it just becomes this all

435
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:27,919
Speaker 3: or nothing zero some game. And I'm like, I'm like,

436
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 3: that is just not how life works. And there are

437
00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:36,440
Speaker 3: there are so many multi factored reasons that someone should

438
00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:40,040
Speaker 3: be important and valued and like at least the common

439
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:42,920
Speaker 3: decency of someone's humanity. And I feel like there's so

440
00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 3: there's so much dehumanizing language that like, and I felt it.

441
00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 3: I remember like there were times, you know, in twenty

442
00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:58,480
Speaker 3: sixteen to seventeen where I like, I would like look

443
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,840
Speaker 3: at someone that was opposite to me, and I would

444
00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 3: be filled with like that person is a brain dead,

445
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 3: monster animal that wants to destroy our country, and like

446
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 3: I felt, and I remember feeling that and then like

447
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,320
Speaker 3: locking arms with the people that agreed with me. Right,

448
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:17,959
Speaker 3: I don't know, it's just like that is so human,

449
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,800
Speaker 3: like we are literally wired to be there. Yeah, but

450
00:25:21,800 --> 00:25:25,840
Speaker 3: but I was like, there are certain people and this

451
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:27,919
Speaker 3: is what I think one of the great teachers of

452
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 3: family in general is that family is this thing that

453
00:25:34,640 --> 00:25:37,159
Speaker 3: so many of us, most of us have that is

454
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 3: always going to be a teacher and a challenger because

455
00:25:39,440 --> 00:25:44,680
Speaker 3: you don't choose your family. And when life is going great,

456
00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:46,879
Speaker 3: you can choose your friends. But when life is going

457
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:51,400
Speaker 3: bad and things get really hard, you know, your family

458
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 3: is the last resort. Your family are the most loyal generally,

459
00:25:55,440 --> 00:26:02,600
Speaker 3: And and I just think about the relationship between a

460
00:26:02,640 --> 00:26:05,920
Speaker 3: mother and a son, if it's even if it involves love.

461
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 3: Is one of the most fundamental, if not the most

462
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 3: fundamental relationship of any human beings life a mother and

463
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 3: a child of parents. Yeah, and that relationship has to

464
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 3: be reckoned with no matter what it is. If you

465
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 3: were if your mother threw you in a dumpster the

466
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:27,439
Speaker 3: moment you were born and you were found by firefighters,

467
00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:30,520
Speaker 3: You'll live the rest of your life processing that. It

468
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 3: doesn't matter if you have a mother or not. You

469
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:35,560
Speaker 3: will live your life processing what did this relationship mean?

470
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:38,679
Speaker 3: And how do I account for it? And like, I

471
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 3: think I have a loving mother now. She doesn't love

472
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:45,960
Speaker 3: me in a way that I think in some ways

473
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 3: that helps me. She's that love from certain directions has

474
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,560
Speaker 3: deeply hurt me, but from other directions has made me

475
00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 3: who I am. My mother loves me unconditionally. She didn't

476
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 3: care what job I did. She didn't care if I

477
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:00,439
Speaker 3: made a lot of money or if I was an artists.

478
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,720
Speaker 3: She's like, anything you do is amazing. Like, I'm so

479
00:27:03,840 --> 00:27:06,320
Speaker 3: proud of you. Oh you're not good at sports? Who cares?

480
00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 3: You know? Like, and my dad was the same. My

481
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 3: dad was the same way and like and just if

482
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:14,840
Speaker 3: I fell, she was there to pick me up. If

483
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:16,960
Speaker 3: I was crying, she would sit by the bed. And

484
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,119
Speaker 3: just like rub Vis vapor rub on the top of

485
00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,240
Speaker 3: my chest and just like those sweet things that like

486
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:27,399
Speaker 3: that I have to account for and that if I

487
00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 3: throw that out because she doesn't approve of my worldview,

488
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:38,199
Speaker 3: and then that comes at a huge cost to me, Yeah,

489
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 3: of not having this woman in my life that is

490
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 3: so profoundly foundational and important to like the bottom floor

491
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 3: of my cells. Like yeah, and this is what a

492
00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 3: lot of this book is about. It's like every child

493
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 3: wants to be loved by their parents. They also want

494
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 3: to be liked by their parents, and they want to

495
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,840
Speaker 3: be approved of. You know, there's layers to it. And

496
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 3: I think there are moms out there that are actually

497
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:14,879
Speaker 3: toxic and actually cruel and actually, you know the oxytocin

498
00:28:15,000 --> 00:28:17,280
Speaker 3: chemical in your brain that causes you to connect with

499
00:28:17,359 --> 00:28:21,320
Speaker 3: someone else, they don't have it, And that's real. And

500
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:24,640
Speaker 3: so there are some people in that mother wound has

501
00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:27,359
Speaker 3: to be accounted for, but that mother wound might also

502
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 3: necessitate severing that relationship, right, But mine, I just wanted

503
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 3: to I just wanted to tell the story of mine

504
00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 3: because I don't want to sever the relationship, and so

505
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:45,440
Speaker 3: many queer people do based on one thing only, which

506
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 3: is my parent doesn't approve of my sexuality, and I

507
00:28:48,280 --> 00:28:54,280
Speaker 3: wanted to be like, there's a third way, and what

508
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 3: is that third way? Because I'm living it, but I

509
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 3: don't know what it is, so let me think about it.

510
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, put it into words.

511
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, tip, you mentioned this a lot that

512
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: your parents y'all just don't talk about it. Is that

513
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: something that's common with, like amongst families who don't necessarily

514
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: approve of someone's sexuality, where you just kind of have

515
00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: a relationship, but that's the one piece maybe that it's

516
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,600
Speaker 1: separate and you just talk about it.

517
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,840
Speaker 4: I look at my because I have an older sister

518
00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 4: who's married and has children, and it's my mom's not

519
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 4: talking to her much about relationships either. I mean, obviously

520
00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:33,400
Speaker 4: it's like it's the elephant in the room. Like there's

521
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 4: a husband there, there's kids, they've had sex, there's those things.

522
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 4: But like, no, unless my sister's fighting with her husband,

523
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 4: they're not really talking about their relationships. And I think

524
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 4: it could be a generational thing where my mother grew

525
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 4: up in a time where we didn't, like in my household,

526
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 4: we didn't talk about feelings ever. You know, you see

527
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,960
Speaker 4: my father cry twice, and it was when his mother died,

528
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 4: and my mom's mother died, and so you know, I

529
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,200
Speaker 4: think some of it is just she is incapable all

530
00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:06,520
Speaker 4: of those conversations and when when because of that, like

531
00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,840
Speaker 4: I am uncomfortable. It's like reciprocal, but I do think,

532
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 4: like what you were saying earlier, Jedediah was like it

533
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:16,680
Speaker 4: made me think, like that the the common thing we

534
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 4: hear all the time is like, build bridges, not walls.

535
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 4: And you know, it's it's really easy to put up

536
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:23,880
Speaker 4: a wall and be like we don't agree, I'm not

537
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:25,640
Speaker 4: going to talk to you anymore. But it's a lot

538
00:30:25,720 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 4: braver and harder to be like, you're my mother. We

539
00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 4: might not agree on everything, but I want to build

540
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:35,360
Speaker 4: a bridge because evolutionarily, like it's a very slow process,

541
00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 4: and if you can change your mother to a fraction

542
00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 4: of a degree throughout time, it like, actually, I think

543
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,560
Speaker 4: is can change the world starting with our families. And

544
00:30:47,600 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 4: it's like my mother doesn't need to understand gay sex,

545
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:52,680
Speaker 4: you know, like I don't need to go there. But

546
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 4: what I can do is when I fall in love

547
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,200
Speaker 4: or when I'm in love with someone, I can share

548
00:30:58,280 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 4: that and they can see it and they can win

549
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,440
Speaker 4: a set and she might not understand it, but she

550
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:05,880
Speaker 4: can see that I'm happy, and I think that's really important.

551
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:09,120
Speaker 4: It's a really important reason for me to keep them

552
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 4: in my life, you know, like they don't need all

553
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:12,600
Speaker 4: the details.

554
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 3: I think the I absolutely agree. I think that not

555
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 3: talking about certain things creates amic ability, and it can

556
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 3: be built. It can be built on this subconscious, subterranean

557
00:31:26,400 --> 00:31:30,040
Speaker 3: understanding that like we disagree and like if we really

558
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,920
Speaker 3: started talking about this, we would go to blows. I mean,

559
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 3: the cliche of we don't talk about politics and religion

560
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:37,960
Speaker 3: at the dinner table is a cliche for a reason,

561
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 3: like it comes from a pass down wisdom.

562
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: Yeah.

563
00:31:43,960 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 3: I think before social media, you didn't know what everybody thought, right,

564
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,560
Speaker 3: you know, like the only way you knew what someone's

565
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 3: political beliefs were was if they were annoyingly outspoken or

566
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:57,880
Speaker 3: if they had bumper stickers all over their car, Like

567
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,800
Speaker 3: that's just didn't know. You would just see people you

568
00:32:01,800 --> 00:32:03,760
Speaker 3: don't know, your teachers, you know, And there was so

569
00:32:03,840 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 3: much amicability in the world. Yeah, and like I don't

570
00:32:09,680 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 3: think I just think that that is actually what creates civilization.

571
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 3: Like civilization isn't utopia. The word sibyl is in it,

572
00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 3: cibil is just treating someone with basic respect. That's all.

573
00:32:26,920 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 3: You don't need to agree that. A book that I

574
00:32:30,600 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 3: will say, if I really go to the root cause,

575
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 3: a book that inspired mother Nature and actually saved my

576
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:38,960
Speaker 3: relationship with a lot of people, is a book by

577
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 3: a social psychologist called Jonathan Height called The Righteous Mind.

578
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 3: Have you heard of this book?

579
00:32:44,400 --> 00:32:46,080
Speaker 1: I feel like I've heard of it, but I definitely

580
00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 1: haven't read it.

581
00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:52,400
Speaker 3: It is everything, Okay, just search if you want to

582
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 3: get a primer, just search Jonathan Height hai DT and

583
00:32:57,120 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 3: search his interview with CHRISTA. Tippett on Being and they

584
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 3: talk about this books. It's from a number of years ago,

585
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 3: like twenty thirteen or something, but it's called The Righteous

586
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:11,160
Speaker 3: Find Why good people disagree about politics and religion? And

587
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 3: it explains basically how in a family. And this what's

588
00:33:16,440 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 3: so interesting. You would think that if your political views

589
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 3: or religious views were strictly logical, then if you were

590
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,280
Speaker 3: raised if you had six children and you raised them

591
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 3: all Christian Republican, all six of them would be Christians

592
00:33:34,400 --> 00:33:37,360
Speaker 3: and Republicans, and you won't find one family like that.

593
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 3: No one kid is going to go off on Broadway

594
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:43,680
Speaker 3: and say fuck you, Mom and dad. One kid is

595
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,040
Speaker 3: going to be completely like mom and dad. One is

596
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 3: going to be a little bit like that, but more quiet,

597
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 3: you know, Like you're going to see an array of

598
00:33:51,680 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 3: political beliefs in a family and behaviors because so much

599
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 3: of what we think is our logical, you know, brilliant

600
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 3: realizations about the world are actually just how we're wired

601
00:34:05,120 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 3: from like the moment we come out of the womb,

602
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 3: and he does. He has all these stats in there,

603
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 3: and it's like this is all circling back to, like

604
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:16,600
Speaker 3: why you don't have to talk about everything at the

605
00:34:16,640 --> 00:34:19,840
Speaker 3: dinner table with your mom? Is like, there are certain

606
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:24,880
Speaker 3: fundamental beliefs in a conservative mind versus a progressive mind

607
00:34:25,320 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 3: that cause everything you build on top of it to

608
00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 3: move in a different direction. So he talks about how

609
00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 3: like a conservative mind, if you ask, do you believe

610
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 3: that people are fundamentally trustworthy? A conservative mind will say no.

611
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 3: A progressive mind will say yes. So that's why a

612
00:34:44,719 --> 00:34:47,799
Speaker 3: progressive person will give money to the poor. Oh you

613
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 3: need needles to take your drugs on the street. Oh

614
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,400
Speaker 3: my god, Like here's all the needles, Like I want

615
00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 3: you to be safe. This isn't your fault. This isn't

616
00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:00,000
Speaker 3: your like personal responsibility. This is structural systems that oppressed

617
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:02,080
Speaker 3: you into this position. We need to help you, and

618
00:35:02,120 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 3: you're gonna not everyone is going to rob stores. This

619
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:10,279
Speaker 3: is whatever it's like. So you start with that fundamental

620
00:35:10,400 --> 00:35:12,320
Speaker 3: question and your answer that question, and you're going to

621
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 3: populate up from there in different directions all the way.

622
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 3: Another one is progressives score high on openness to new experience.

623
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,680
Speaker 3: Oh there's a new drug that everyone's trying at the

624
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:31,360
Speaker 3: you know, Maddie on concert, I'm going to try that

625
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,480
Speaker 3: fun everyone seems to love it. Versus, oh God, that's scary,

626
00:35:34,600 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 3: Like everyone's trying this new thing, and here comes TikTok

627
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:41,399
Speaker 3: and the Chinese watchers and it's like you're freaked out

628
00:35:41,440 --> 00:35:43,600
Speaker 3: by new stuff, versus you move in the direction of

629
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,520
Speaker 3: new things. Right, Progressive progressive people score very high on

630
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 3: openness to new experience. We want to travel, we want

631
00:35:50,080 --> 00:35:52,920
Speaker 3: to taste that food, we want to eat oo mommy burger,

632
00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:57,120
Speaker 3: whatever it is, and conservatives don't. And so like you

633
00:35:57,160 --> 00:36:00,760
Speaker 3: think about very basic ground floor world world view things

634
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 3: like that, so that when you're arguing with someone at

635
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 3: the dinner table about what how to treat the homelessness crisis.

636
00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:12,680
Speaker 3: The very very foundation of your argument is at an impasse.

637
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 3: You disagree about the fundamental behavior of human beings, So

638
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:21,560
Speaker 3: there is no there's no there, there there's no like

639
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:27,200
Speaker 3: you're not going to convince them, because there's such a

640
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:32,359
Speaker 3: foundational ship and understanding that has made me realize the

641
00:36:32,400 --> 00:36:37,239
Speaker 3: only thing that changes anyone's behavior as relationship. Like no

642
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 3: one's ever been argued. Maybe four people in history have

643
00:36:40,160 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 3: been just argued. That's why I hate debates. I hate debates.

644
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:51,160
Speaker 3: I think they're nasty. I think relationship is the only thing.

645
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 3: Like I know, so many of my friends in high

646
00:36:54,520 --> 00:36:57,839
Speaker 3: school were straight men. Yeah, and when I came out

647
00:36:58,640 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 3: senior year, they'd never met a gayer in openly gay

648
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,439
Speaker 3: pers and they've only seen them on TV. And if

649
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:06,879
Speaker 3: it had not been for that relationship and me being

650
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,759
Speaker 3: the first gay person they knew, I think they they

651
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:14,680
Speaker 3: could be homophobic Republicans right now and they're not. They're like, well,

652
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:17,800
Speaker 3: you know, I don't I don't know about West Hollywood

653
00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 3: Pride Parade. But like my friend Jed's gay and he's like,

654
00:37:21,680 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 3: you know, and there's like like him.

655
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:28,359
Speaker 1: So yeah, I always say empathy is the thing that

656
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:30,640
Speaker 1: does that. But you're right, it's relationships because a lot

657
00:37:30,680 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 1: of people don't naturally go to empathy or that's not

658
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:36,839
Speaker 1: a characteristic that they may easily tap into. So it

659
00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 1: is about that lived experience. A lot of times. I

660
00:37:40,640 --> 00:37:42,760
Speaker 1: did think something was really interesting, though, because you said

661
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 1: my mom loves me unconditionally, And it was so interesting

662
00:37:46,360 --> 00:37:49,880
Speaker 1: for me because I wrote a couple different questions about

663
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:55,480
Speaker 1: like the importance of feeling that unconditional love from our parents,

664
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 1: and I didn't interpret that in the book, that that

665
00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 1: she still loves you unconditionally because she's so opposed to

666
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,439
Speaker 1: a certain thing about you. But you feel that from

667
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:08,879
Speaker 1: your mom that she loves you unconditionally.

668
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 2: Different, right, I guess so.

669
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,640
Speaker 1: I just never really thought about it that way.

670
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 3: It's like my mom sees my sexuality as an addiction

671
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:24,080
Speaker 3: to heroin yeah, or alcoholism. Yeah, And so she loves me,

672
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 3: but she thinks that that behavior and belief is unhealthy.

673
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 3: But she loves me, and that's so. And I've I've

674
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:35,960
Speaker 3: heard people say that isn't love if they don't accept

675
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,600
Speaker 3: that part of it, that isn't love. And I understand that,

676
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:47,040
Speaker 3: but I disagree. Yeah, I love I feel loved by her,

677
00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 3: and and I also like, I think so much of

678
00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 3: it has to do and this is like part of

679
00:38:56,040 --> 00:39:00,680
Speaker 3: the self work in writing this book. And I recommend

680
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 3: everyone via memoirs because it's basically like self therapizing yourself

681
00:39:04,040 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 3: all the time.

682
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 2: It made me want a journalist I've never done.

683
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:12,120
Speaker 3: Which causes so much growth. It's just like I had

684
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:17,279
Speaker 3: to learn, like, Okay, why do I feel safe with

685
00:39:17,400 --> 00:39:21,800
Speaker 3: this woman who her beliefs would make so many queer

686
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:22,920
Speaker 3: kids feel unsafe?

687
00:39:23,280 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 4: Right?

688
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 3: And I think it's because I have constructed in my

689
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 3: adulthood a constellation of unconditional love from my dad, from

690
00:39:35,160 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 3: my best friends, from the community I've built in California,

691
00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:41,399
Speaker 3: from the community I've built in Nashville, Ruthie, like these

692
00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:43,560
Speaker 3: people that love me all of.

693
00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 2: Me, And.

694
00:39:47,080 --> 00:39:53,839
Speaker 3: I don't feel any fear of rejection from my mother

695
00:39:54,040 --> 00:40:00,080
Speaker 3: for anything, And so I can accept the love that

696
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 3: she has to give me because I feel so strong

697
00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:11,800
Speaker 3: and powerful that her qualified acceptance of me is enough

698
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:16,120
Speaker 3: for me. Because I feel big and strong, which is

699
00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:20,080
Speaker 3: a big deal in the shadow of a mother. And

700
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,760
Speaker 3: like I feel deeply safe in the amount of love

701
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,240
Speaker 3: that I get in this life and from different sources,

702
00:40:29,680 --> 00:40:33,719
Speaker 3: that one imperfect love from an incredibly important source to

703
00:40:33,800 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 3: me is worth it.

704
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 2: Well, getting the.

705
00:40:39,480 --> 00:40:45,200
Speaker 4: Truth from her is honestly the most loving thing she

706
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:49,399
Speaker 4: could do, because just knowing where she stands is really

707
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 4: important because then it allows you to navigate that on

708
00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 4: your own terms. So it's I mean, wouldn't you rather

709
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,759
Speaker 4: know that your mother feels a certain way than to

710
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:04,480
Speaker 4: have it right and ship behind your back and have

711
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:05,879
Speaker 4: a real relationship with her?

712
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:10,319
Speaker 3: Well, And I think the root of the root of

713
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:17,800
Speaker 3: the mother fear is abandonment, like in the like baby Chimpanzee,

714
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 3: brain right, You're dead if your mother does it walks.

715
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:23,439
Speaker 1: Away, I mean you would be.

716
00:41:23,520 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And so I think the fact that I

717
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,880
Speaker 3: can be completely open and honest with my mother and

718
00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 3: she can disagree with me, and yet she's right there

719
00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 3: forcing colloidal silver down my throat like you know it

720
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,439
Speaker 3: like it soothes that fear where I know, like, oh wow,

721
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 3: I can, big boy disagree with her and she's not

722
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 3: leaving And I'm not leaving her either.

723
00:41:48,360 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 1: You know what was So the very beginning of the book,

724
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:52,719
Speaker 1: you talk about a wreck that you were in that

725
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:54,840
Speaker 1: was pretty bad, like you flipped and all this stuff

726
00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 1: and the fire. One of the firemen said to you

727
00:41:57,040 --> 00:42:02,600
Speaker 1: something about, like I see more like grown adults cry

728
00:42:02,800 --> 00:42:05,880
Speaker 1: when their mom shows up to the wreck into that

729
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:09,960
Speaker 1: atmosphere than any other location or situation ever in life.

730
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:13,480
Speaker 1: And I thought to myself, is that not the truest

731
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 1: shit you've ever heard? Because like, I will be fine

732
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:18,920
Speaker 1: going about my day, and if my mom calls and

733
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 1: it's like, how are you and things aren't fine, I'm like,

734
00:42:21,640 --> 00:42:27,799
Speaker 1: I'm not okay, you know what. That's probably what she called. Intuitively,

735
00:42:27,880 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 1: she knew I wasn't okay. It's just such a point,

736
00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 1: you know that our moms are really this like nurturing

737
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: force in our life that is so important to our development.

738
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:42,680
Speaker 1: And I guess that's where I was putting in the

739
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 1: like the unconditional love, like how do you grapple with

740
00:42:47,160 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 1: your mom being so against such a big part of

741
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 1: who you are? And putting that in relation to like

742
00:42:53,960 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 1: how do you get to the place of self acceptance

743
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: because like, as a kid, we all probably put our

744
00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:02,239
Speaker 1: parents on patuss right, and so if there's something in

745
00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:06,839
Speaker 1: them that's like this isn't okay, and like your mom

746
00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 1: would say things like you know, being afflicted with homosexuality

747
00:43:10,960 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 1: or like that she would pray about you just becoming

748
00:43:14,440 --> 00:43:17,399
Speaker 1: attracted to women like and this maybe is a question

749
00:43:17,440 --> 00:43:19,400
Speaker 1: for both of y'all, but what does that feel like?

750
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:21,479
Speaker 1: And how do you develop how do you cross over

751
00:43:21,560 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 1: that to develop a deep enough relationship with yourself and

752
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:29,040
Speaker 1: your own self acceptance to that, like to the knowing

753
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 1: of I'm okay and I'm perfect as I am.

754
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 3: Her not celebrating this part of me is something I'm

755
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 3: more it is sad, yeah, but I mean, if it's

756
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 3: not clear in this conversation, I'm just like not an

757
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 3: all or nothing guy. Yeah, I understand that, like the

758
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:03,520
Speaker 3: fantasy of perfection is just like you're gonna get a limping, stinky,

759
00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:07,879
Speaker 3: broken life. That is just what it is. And yet

760
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:11,799
Speaker 3: if you like get real Sufi mystic Buddhist about it,

761
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 3: the limp and the crack is where the light gets in,

762
00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:19,960
Speaker 3: is why it's beautiful, and it's like you learn it's

763
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 3: just all there to teach you. And I I think

764
00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:30,160
Speaker 3: maybe you know, like the lack of total acceptance and

765
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 3: support from my mother, if I'm like really looking at

766
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 3: my life through a narrative lands of the big picture

767
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:41,439
Speaker 3: has inspired me to want to be that for other

768
00:44:41,480 --> 00:44:43,359
Speaker 3: people and to want to let them know that they're

769
00:44:43,400 --> 00:44:46,440
Speaker 3: okay and can be okay, and that like to step

770
00:44:46,480 --> 00:44:52,720
Speaker 3: into that space and tell my story and inspire strength

771
00:44:52,760 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 3: and other people. Like there's an unbelievable Back when Oprah

772
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 3: started her like failed TV channel called OH or whatever,

773
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:07,160
Speaker 3: she had this show called mask. It started as OH

774
00:45:07,160 --> 00:45:11,120
Speaker 3: in then, I think, but it was like it was

775
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:14,919
Speaker 3: called Masterclass. Anyway, the first episode was her yea and

776
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 3: she tells her story and it's unbelievable. It's been scrubbed

777
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:21,360
Speaker 3: from the internet. I don't know why, but I have

778
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:26,400
Speaker 3: it like burned and loved it. And anyway, she talks

779
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:31,479
Speaker 3: about how her mom and dad had sex once, never

780
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:33,759
Speaker 3: liked each other, never really knew each other, and her

781
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,880
Speaker 3: mom was begrudgingly pregnant, would have got an abortion if

782
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 3: she could. And when Oprah was born, her mother was like,

783
00:45:39,719 --> 00:45:43,560
Speaker 3: I never felt connected to you. I feel nothing, and

784
00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:46,879
Speaker 3: and Oprah was just raised as like an accident and

785
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,720
Speaker 3: like as a bummer. And Oprah says, I came into

786
00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 3: this world unwanted. And she goes, and it became my

787
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:58,879
Speaker 3: life's mission to make people feel wanted. That the very

788
00:45:58,960 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 3: fact that you're here is a miracle that that sperm

789
00:46:01,440 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 3: hit that egg at that moment in time, which is

790
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 3: like a one in one hundred trillion chance that you

791
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 3: are here as a miracle. And I've dedicated my life

792
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:10,279
Speaker 3: to making people feel that.

793
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 4: Wow.

794
00:46:10,920 --> 00:46:14,080
Speaker 3: And I'm like and I'm like, that is and like,

795
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 3: I wouldn't wish her affliction on anybody, But what a

796
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:23,399
Speaker 3: pendulum swing of purpose that was caused by that. And

797
00:46:23,440 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 3: I think, you know, this much smaller degree of dissonance

798
00:46:30,760 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 3: in the universe, which is my mother's lack of acceptance,

799
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:36,360
Speaker 3: might be one of the biggest gifts to the like

800
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:38,359
Speaker 3: meaning and purpose of my life that I could ever

801
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:40,839
Speaker 3: wish upon myself. So I try to see it from

802
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 3: that from that angle.

803
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:45,800
Speaker 1: Well, I think that's true. That's even what Chip was

804
00:46:45,840 --> 00:46:48,560
Speaker 1: telling you at the beginning of the podcast, giving voice

805
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,440
Speaker 1: to to his narrative.

806
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:54,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, I you know, I think about my parents,

807
00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:56,600
Speaker 4: you know, like I don't. I can't remember which one

808
00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:58,800
Speaker 4: of you said this earlier, Like we put our parents

809
00:46:58,800 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 4: on a pedestal when we're younger. And I turned forty

810
00:47:02,160 --> 00:47:05,520
Speaker 4: eight last month, And if I think of, like if

811
00:47:05,560 --> 00:47:08,120
Speaker 4: I were my mom and dad, I would have an

812
00:47:08,160 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 4: eighteen year old son right now. And I thought my

813
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:15,600
Speaker 4: parents were so old and knew everything in the world

814
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 4: and they were lame and didn't have any real friends.

815
00:47:19,360 --> 00:47:21,000
Speaker 4: And I look at my life and I'm like, no,

816
00:47:21,040 --> 00:47:23,359
Speaker 4: they were just partying with their friends like I do now,

817
00:47:24,040 --> 00:47:26,719
Speaker 4: and they didn't know fucking shit. Like they grew up

818
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 4: in a small town in Virginia and like have barely

819
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 4: left it, and I've traveled the world and like, I

820
00:47:31,800 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 4: still don't know shit.

821
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 2: So it's like it's hard for me to hold them.

822
00:47:35,880 --> 00:47:38,840
Speaker 4: Accountable when I know that, like they were doing the

823
00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 4: best that they could, and I've never felt anything but

824
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 4: love from them. Like most of the shame that I

825
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,600
Speaker 4: felt was I thrust upon myself.

826
00:47:47,880 --> 00:47:52,480
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, it's like absorbed through osmosis through culture.

827
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:57,959
Speaker 1: Right right. Well, for the listeners, if you, we'd highly

828
00:47:58,000 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 1: recommend going through the book book Chip and I loved it.

829
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 1: But it's called Mother Nature. Yeah, And Jedediah convinced his

830
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 1: mom to retrace the journey she had gone on with

831
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 1: his father, which was walking across America. And you guys

832
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:14,719
Speaker 1: went on this road trip. I want to know, though,

833
00:48:14,840 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 1: what was that conversation like when you came up with

834
00:48:17,080 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 1: this idea, like, was she open to you writing a

835
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: book about her in this capacity because that seems like

836
00:48:24,320 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 1: it could be a fragile topic.

837
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 3: Well, you know what is so interesting it was pointed

838
00:48:29,000 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 3: out to me which I didn't even realize, is that

839
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 3: one of the big conflicts in the book is a

840
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 3: series of emails that we write each other that are

841
00:48:37,280 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 3: like blowout right bazookas in each other's faces. And one

842
00:48:41,680 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 3: thing that she says, based on the way I write

843
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 3: about and talk about her in my first book is

844
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:49,480
Speaker 3: she's like, I don't want to be in your narrative,

845
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 3: Like I don't want you to talk about me and

846
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 3: use me as your villain, like stop, which is so lol,

847
00:48:55,239 --> 00:48:58,320
Speaker 3: because now I've written a whole book about her exclusively

848
00:48:58,440 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 3: and our faight right, she agreed to, But that's like,

849
00:49:03,560 --> 00:49:08,279
Speaker 3: but in truth, my mom is like, you know, if

850
00:49:08,280 --> 00:49:10,399
Speaker 3: she was from a different culture, in a different time,

851
00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,280
Speaker 3: she would be a showbiz girl. Like she like loves

852
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,080
Speaker 3: bright lights and the showbiz, Like she wants to be

853
00:49:16,120 --> 00:49:18,239
Speaker 3: talked about and she wants it to be positive. But

854
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:22,640
Speaker 3: she also just like likes attention and and I know

855
00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 3: that she knows that me grappling with This is me

856
00:49:25,520 --> 00:49:27,319
Speaker 3: loving her in my way, and the same way I

857
00:49:27,360 --> 00:49:30,200
Speaker 3: know that her praying for me is her loving me

858
00:49:30,320 --> 00:49:38,880
Speaker 3: in her way, right, And and I was like, Mom,

859
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,480
Speaker 3: I want to know you like I want to know

860
00:49:40,520 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 3: you when you were thirty years old. Let's retrace your steps,

861
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 3: you know. And I came to find out she had

862
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 3: kept a journal her whole walk, so it was like

863
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:52,320
Speaker 3: every page was written down. It was unbelievable of her mind,

864
00:49:52,840 --> 00:49:57,080
Speaker 3: being newly married and in love with my dad. So

865
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 3: it was just she knew and she can feel this sincerity.

866
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 3: This is what I'm talking about. Like I'm not some

867
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:07,879
Speaker 3: like New York Times liberal journalist trying to catch her

868
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:13,239
Speaker 3: saying something about Trump and xenophobic. I like love her

869
00:50:13,560 --> 00:50:15,600
Speaker 3: and I want people to love her as much as

870
00:50:15,640 --> 00:50:20,239
Speaker 3: I love her. But I also and I did tell

871
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,680
Speaker 3: her this. I was like, Mom, we disagree about everything,

872
00:50:22,719 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 3: and we love each other so much, and this country

873
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 3: is so scary, and I think us sharing our relationship

874
00:50:31,160 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 3: with the world, the good and the bad, might actually

875
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 3: like help some parents and their kids maintain a relationship.

876
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 3: And I think that she felt that. Yeah, and she

877
00:50:42,040 --> 00:50:44,760
Speaker 3: wants because you know, she's got you know, she's got

878
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:49,120
Speaker 3: friends in her Bible study that have liberal sons or

879
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 3: you know, she she has one of my mom's best friends,

880
00:50:52,640 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 3: best friends. They grew up hanging out every week constantly.

881
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 3: I mean, this was basically my like surrogate aunt. And

882
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 3: when Trump was elected, their friendship collapsed because she was

883
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:07,200
Speaker 3: liberal and my mom is conservative, right and fact, and

884
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 3: the fact that my mom voted for that man, her

885
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:11,759
Speaker 3: best friend was like, I can never talk to you again.

886
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 1: Wow, So what's happening in our country? Though, I mean,

887
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:16,160
Speaker 1: Chef and I talk about this all the time, it

888
00:51:16,200 --> 00:51:20,640
Speaker 1: is impossible. We have two friends who vote conservatively and

889
00:51:21,680 --> 00:51:24,360
Speaker 1: they're very much under the same mentality as us of

890
00:51:24,480 --> 00:51:26,839
Speaker 1: just kind of like I can see you're like the

891
00:51:26,880 --> 00:51:29,200
Speaker 1: middle ground piece of it, and we just just don't

892
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 1: discuss it. But I think we've lost other friends because

893
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:36,200
Speaker 1: it was so divisive and just so extreme the conversations

894
00:51:36,680 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 1: and if you can't respect another person's side, which we

895
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:43,279
Speaker 1: seem to have somehow lost, there isn't a relationship to

896
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:43,760
Speaker 1: be had.

897
00:51:44,560 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I mean, let me be very clear, I

898
00:51:47,760 --> 00:51:50,840
Speaker 3: felt that I felt like, if you voted for Trump,

899
00:51:50,920 --> 00:51:54,360
Speaker 3: you're dead to me. Like I remember feeling that energy

900
00:51:54,920 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 3: of like you are deeply dangerous and like there can't

901
00:51:58,000 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 3: possibly be any overlap in our worldview, there can't possibly

902
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,640
Speaker 3: be right. And so I understand. It's taken me years

903
00:52:06,680 --> 00:52:10,400
Speaker 3: to figure out that that was, you know, a reaction

904
00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,440
Speaker 3: from from actual existential fear. I was like scared.

905
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:16,239
Speaker 1: I thought that same thing.

906
00:52:17,160 --> 00:52:22,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's so human, It's so Ruthie always says this.

907
00:52:22,840 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 3: She's just like, oh aren't we cute? Like so scared

908
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 3: and fighting, like like oh little me was like so

909
00:52:30,239 --> 00:52:32,800
Speaker 3: afraid of like going to hell, Like, wasn't she cute?

910
00:52:32,880 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 3: Wasn't she sweet? Like she's just like love that. I know.

911
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 1: He's talking about Ruthie Lindsay for you listeners, who has

912
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:40,600
Speaker 1: also been on this podcast and we love here.

913
00:52:41,600 --> 00:52:42,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, so.

914
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 1: She's the best. Everything is like, oh look at us,

915
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 1: Well I did really end up loving your mom throughout.

916
00:52:53,480 --> 00:52:55,880
Speaker 1: First of all, she just seems so cute and funny.

917
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:59,280
Speaker 1: Like some of her quirks we mentioned the cloak wheel.

918
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:03,000
Speaker 1: Is that how you say the silver loial? Colloquial? What

919
00:53:03,040 --> 00:53:03,799
Speaker 1: does that even mean?

920
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:06,280
Speaker 2: Just like conversational?

921
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:13,760
Speaker 1: Oh okay, yes, she's so cute. You guys are both

922
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:16,319
Speaker 1: so funny, and I think the journey is just such

923
00:53:16,360 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 1: an interesting experience of hearing the different back and forth.

924
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:22,520
Speaker 1: But we mentioned this at the beginning of the podcast.

925
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:25,799
Speaker 1: You wanted to ask her one specific question, which is

926
00:53:26,040 --> 00:53:28,600
Speaker 1: if I got married to a man, would you be

927
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:30,560
Speaker 1: at my wedding? And we don't have to give it

928
00:53:30,600 --> 00:53:33,799
Speaker 1: away to the listeners how that conversation went, but it

929
00:53:33,920 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 1: did take you until you guys were going home to ask,

930
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 1: so talk a little bit about that part of the journey.

931
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:43,720
Speaker 1: What was what was the feeling, what was the energy

932
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:46,400
Speaker 1: where you like, I've got to just rip this band aid.

933
00:53:47,120 --> 00:53:50,279
Speaker 3: Well, and I think anybody can transpose this under their

934
00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:53,799
Speaker 3: life and feel this where it's just like, you know,

935
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:55,880
Speaker 3: if you've ever broken up with a boyfriend or a

936
00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:59,359
Speaker 3: girlfriend and you're like, you know, you know you want

937
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:01,160
Speaker 3: to break up. You know you want to, but you

938
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:06,080
Speaker 3: know what, it's their birthday weekend right, and or or

939
00:54:06,120 --> 00:54:09,000
Speaker 3: you're on a trip with friends and you've realized on

940
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:12,040
Speaker 3: the flight there to the airbnb, I have to break

941
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 3: up with him, Like this isn't going anywhere, and you're like,

942
00:54:15,880 --> 00:54:17,520
Speaker 3: oh my god, we have four days on the beach

943
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:19,879
Speaker 3: at this house. I'm not doing it day one, right,

944
00:54:20,960 --> 00:54:23,439
Speaker 3: I'm not dropping a grenade into this thing day one,

945
00:54:23,640 --> 00:54:29,719
Speaker 3: And so I was so scared of that conversation. And

946
00:54:29,760 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 3: I wanted this trip to be something that I remember

947
00:54:32,120 --> 00:54:34,560
Speaker 3: and I'm proud of doing with my mom forever. I

948
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:36,399
Speaker 3: want to know what she was like when she was young,

949
00:54:36,719 --> 00:54:40,399
Speaker 3: her biggest adventure of her life, living on living in

950
00:54:40,440 --> 00:54:44,560
Speaker 3: a tent, walking across America for three years with a

951
00:54:44,600 --> 00:54:47,160
Speaker 3: man she just met, with a man she just met

952
00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:49,600
Speaker 3: and married who happens to be my father, Like what

953
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:52,279
Speaker 3: an adventure? Like? I want to be proud of this

954
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:57,520
Speaker 3: road trip and remember it with fondness and like feel

955
00:54:57,560 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 3: like I know her better than I ever have. And

956
00:55:00,719 --> 00:55:03,600
Speaker 3: so if I ask her day one and it doesn't

957
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:07,040
Speaker 3: go like I hope it will, right, And I don't

958
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:08,839
Speaker 3: know how I'm going to feel. I don't know if

959
00:55:08,840 --> 00:55:10,880
Speaker 3: I'm going to feel strong. I don't know if I'm

960
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:14,680
Speaker 3: going to feel sad and weak and angry. I was

961
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:19,520
Speaker 3: so like fearful of even my response or hers, And

962
00:55:19,560 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 3: if she would go, she would get really sad and

963
00:55:22,080 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 3: go inward and shut down and not be her bubbly

964
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:29,520
Speaker 3: fun self. So in a way, like I asked her

965
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:33,719
Speaker 3: right at the right moment. But but I also know

966
00:55:33,800 --> 00:55:36,759
Speaker 3: that I thought about asking her, you know, I was

967
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:39,680
Speaker 3: waiting for like maybe she would bring something up, or

968
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 3: like a door would naturally open, and it just didn't.

969
00:55:44,040 --> 00:55:47,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I had to see it. My coming out

970
00:55:49,160 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 2: moment to my.

971
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:53,080
Speaker 4: Parents was very similar, like I had my first boyfriend.

972
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:54,560
Speaker 4: I was very much in love, and I was like,

973
00:55:54,640 --> 00:55:56,839
Speaker 4: I'm going to fly home. I'm going to tell them.

974
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:58,440
Speaker 4: It was a long weekend. I'm a fly home. I'm

975
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:01,000
Speaker 4: going to tell them. And night one went by and

976
00:56:01,040 --> 00:56:04,239
Speaker 4: there was no natural moment. Night two went by, Night

977
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 4: three went by, and finally was the last night, and

978
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 4: my dad was like finished inn and was like okay,

979
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:09,680
Speaker 4: good night, and like went to bed, and my mom

980
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:13,359
Speaker 4: starts ironing and she goes, what's wrong with you? You're

981
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:15,880
Speaker 4: like oddly quiet, And I just burst into tears and

982
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 4: told her and I was like, I know it looks

983
00:56:17,280 --> 00:56:20,280
Speaker 4: like I'm sad, but I'm actually really happy and I'm

984
00:56:20,320 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 4: like a shame that I couldn't do it, And she

985
00:56:22,200 --> 00:56:23,879
Speaker 4: was like, well, you better call your father and tell

986
00:56:23,960 --> 00:56:26,480
Speaker 4: him tomorrow, because I I've never kept a secret from him,

987
00:56:26,760 --> 00:56:28,680
Speaker 4: and I forgot to call when I got home, and

988
00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:31,000
Speaker 4: then then my sister called him was like, you better

989
00:56:31,040 --> 00:56:33,040
Speaker 4: call home because Mom just outed.

990
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:33,320
Speaker 2: You to dad.

991
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:37,720
Speaker 4: And he answered the phone when she never does, and

992
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:40,680
Speaker 4: he made the conversation very easy. But it was like

993
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:43,160
Speaker 4: I didn't know how I was going to respond to

994
00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:46,359
Speaker 4: their response too, Like it's such a like because all

995
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 4: I wanted was approval. That's all I wanted, Like I

996
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:53,359
Speaker 4: knew they loved me. Like, but it's it's terrifying. So

997
00:56:53,719 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 4: reading that happened for you in that way, it's like, God,

998
00:56:58,120 --> 00:57:01,200
Speaker 4: it's I could just see it happening for me, Like

999
00:57:01,480 --> 00:57:03,759
Speaker 4: you mentioned, like trying to figure out a podcast to

1000
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:06,440
Speaker 4: listen to or what radio station. It's like when I'm

1001
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 4: home and in that you say, like you hear things

1002
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 4: a lot more like brightly, or you hear things that

1003
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:15,440
Speaker 4: you would have never heard because with with a double mind,

1004
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:16,760
Speaker 4: right with the double mind.

1005
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 2: And that's how I am.

1006
00:57:17,800 --> 00:57:20,000
Speaker 4: Like when I'm at home and like the news comes on,

1007
00:57:20,240 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 4: like the second they show a picture of Biden, I like,

1008
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:26,320
Speaker 4: oh God, here we go, yeah, because I know my

1009
00:57:26,400 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 4: parents are going to say something that they would have

1010
00:57:27,920 --> 00:57:29,000
Speaker 4: never said if I weren't.

1011
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:32,000
Speaker 3: Sitting there, you know, or you would have never even

1012
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:34,160
Speaker 3: thought to feel that if you were watching it on your.

1013
00:57:34,040 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 1: App right, right, it doesn't even come into your brain.

1014
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:38,400
Speaker 3: It doesn't even come into your brain.

1015
00:57:43,720 --> 00:57:46,800
Speaker 1: What's the thing you walked away with? Like, what was

1016
00:57:46,840 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 1: the one thing you learned about your mom that you

1017
00:57:49,360 --> 00:57:50,800
Speaker 1: really loved on this trip?

1018
00:57:52,000 --> 00:57:55,640
Speaker 3: I learned I learned that she loves baby elephants and

1019
00:57:55,720 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 3: watches them every night, which I thought was so cute.

1020
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 3: I was like, what She's like, Oh, I just go

1021
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 3: down rabbit holes on YouTube watching baby Elephants. I also learned,

1022
00:58:07,480 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 3: you know, it was fun to learn that she's a

1023
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:14,360
Speaker 3: good hang, like for multiple days in a row, like

1024
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 3: sleeping in the same hotel room, like that could just

1025
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:21,320
Speaker 3: be that could go so wrong and it could make

1026
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 3: you crazy. Yeah, And I was like, you're actually like

1027
00:58:25,080 --> 00:58:27,480
Speaker 3: a good hang And I think I really credit that

1028
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:33,000
Speaker 3: to her natural optimism. And she doesn't complain. She thinks

1029
00:58:33,000 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 3: everything's amazing. She's like she'll stay at a five star

1030
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:41,240
Speaker 3: hotel and stay at a one star dumpster and think

1031
00:58:41,280 --> 00:58:44,480
Speaker 3: the dumpster is such an adventure and so like that

1032
00:58:44,640 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 3: is just like it's just a really wonderful way of

1033
00:58:48,320 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 3: being that I want to emulate. And I also loved

1034
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:56,360
Speaker 3: learning just from retracing her steps, like how tough and

1035
00:58:56,440 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 3: adventurous she was. Just like she's freaking tough. That was hard.

1036
00:59:02,440 --> 00:59:06,040
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Yeah, it's hard to do, right.

1037
00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:11,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, And so yeah, I don't know, just to

1038
00:59:11,800 --> 00:59:16,720
Speaker 3: see every inch that she walked and to really absorb

1039
00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:20,480
Speaker 3: how far that is and how much of that terrain

1040
00:59:20,720 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 3: is like sun beating down on you in human desert,

1041
00:59:25,720 --> 00:59:28,400
Speaker 3: and just like I was like, wow, this is a

1042
00:59:28,440 --> 00:59:32,000
Speaker 3: lot gnarlier than I thought.

1043
00:59:32,360 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 4: How many physical journals was it? And where do the

1044
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:37,520
Speaker 4: fuck did she put them? In three years? Like did

1045
00:59:37,520 --> 00:59:38,240
Speaker 4: she carry them with her?

1046
00:59:38,480 --> 00:59:38,640
Speaker 2: You know?

1047
00:59:38,720 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 3: It was it was a fat single journal. But it

1048
00:59:41,240 --> 00:59:43,880
Speaker 3: was like but every day some it was some days

1049
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:47,400
Speaker 3: were just like, walked twenty six miles today through up

1050
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:50,040
Speaker 3: or something, you know, like it was it was more

1051
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:53,480
Speaker 3: like an ancient sailor, you know, just riding like scurvy

1052
00:59:53,520 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 3: again and like and then some days she would be

1053
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 3: reflective and be like I'm fighting with Peter today or whatever.

1054
01:00:02,280 --> 01:00:05,880
Speaker 1: I always wondered, as I loved y'all's back and forth,

1055
01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:08,640
Speaker 1: the banter and kind of just the dialogue, how did

1056
01:00:08,680 --> 01:00:10,880
Speaker 1: you remember all that? Like I just this is a

1057
01:00:11,160 --> 01:00:13,600
Speaker 1: total side note, But as a writer, are you taking

1058
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:16,240
Speaker 1: notes the whole time or did this the whole time

1059
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 1: you were okay?

1060
01:00:17,880 --> 01:00:22,000
Speaker 3: Because similar to the like double double minded watching Joe

1061
01:00:22,040 --> 01:00:24,880
Speaker 3: Biden on the news, Yeah, knowing that you're writing a

1062
01:00:24,920 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 3: book about a trip, you have a double mind where

1063
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:31,880
Speaker 3: I'm like my mom would say something or something would

1064
01:00:31,880 --> 01:00:34,640
Speaker 3: happen in a diner or whatever, and I'd be like,

1065
01:00:35,640 --> 01:00:37,680
Speaker 3: oh my gosh, like this is a moment, Like I

1066
01:00:37,680 --> 01:00:40,440
Speaker 3: can see it in my mind. Yeah, yeah, and I

1067
01:00:40,600 --> 01:00:44,000
Speaker 3: just immediately write it down. There's a friend of mine

1068
01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 3: is tangentially through his boyfriend, friends with David Sedaris, and

1069
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:51,640
Speaker 3: so they're at dinner and they hang out, and he's like,

1070
01:00:51,800 --> 01:00:54,760
Speaker 3: to hang with David Sedaris is so interesting because he

1071
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:58,360
Speaker 3: has a little notebook in his pocket, not his phone,

1072
01:00:58,360 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 3: and like a little notebook in a pen, and all

1073
01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:05,160
Speaker 3: through dinner anywhere you are, if something is said clever

1074
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:11,480
Speaker 3: or like something weird happens, he'll just he'll just and

1075
01:01:11,560 --> 01:01:12,120
Speaker 3: write it down.

1076
01:01:12,880 --> 01:01:18,160
Speaker 1: So strange a journalist, But I love that he doesn't

1077
01:01:18,160 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 1: do it on his phone.

1078
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:22,520
Speaker 4: You know, I do it technologically, and it's that seems

1079
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 4: more invasive than being like, oh I just have to

1080
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:25,160
Speaker 4: write something down.

1081
01:01:25,160 --> 01:01:29,240
Speaker 3: Right, Yeah I know, but he does and I think

1082
01:01:29,320 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 3: that's adorable and that's kind of how I was. But

1083
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:35,000
Speaker 3: my mom just thought I was like texting my friends,

1084
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:37,840
Speaker 3: but I was actually writing verbatim the crazy thing you

1085
01:01:37,960 --> 01:01:38,400
Speaker 3: just said.

1086
01:01:39,320 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 2: Actually, did you feel any of it? Like did you

1087
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:44,080
Speaker 2: ever film her like or just voice not her?

1088
01:01:44,440 --> 01:01:44,640
Speaker 4: Yeah?

1089
01:01:44,680 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 3: I have a lot of videos of it. There's actually

1090
01:01:48,560 --> 01:01:52,440
Speaker 3: on my Instagram. There's a highlight of our road trip.

1091
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:54,920
Speaker 3: So if you've read the book, it's actually fun to

1092
01:01:54,920 --> 01:01:58,280
Speaker 3: go through that time because it's my mom telling stories.

1093
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:00,720
Speaker 3: It's her reading from her journal, it's her from the book.

1094
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 3: It's like us reaching the beach at the end, Like, yeah,

1095
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:06,600
Speaker 3: there's you can really get the visuals.

1096
01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:09,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. Every time that you guys would come across men

1097
01:02:09,760 --> 01:02:11,880
Speaker 1: that were hitting on her, I was like, oh my god,

1098
01:02:11,920 --> 01:02:14,120
Speaker 1: I want her to start dating them, Like I like,

1099
01:02:14,240 --> 01:02:16,440
Speaker 1: want to find someone for your mom to date. I

1100
01:02:16,480 --> 01:02:20,680
Speaker 1: don't know why I'm on matchmaking her. Now we should

1101
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:24,760
Speaker 1: hang out. She has a Mashville.

1102
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:28,160
Speaker 3: Honestly, y'all should come over when I'm home for Christmas

1103
01:02:28,200 --> 01:02:33,240
Speaker 3: and we'll go We'll have like wine at Barbs. Oh god, okay,

1104
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:33,880
Speaker 3: we'll plan it.

1105
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:35,600
Speaker 2: Okay, I love that.

1106
01:02:35,920 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 1: If you had to do this trip all over again,

1107
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 1: would you And would there be anything that you would

1108
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:41,920
Speaker 1: do differently?

1109
01:02:45,120 --> 01:02:47,840
Speaker 3: Oh, great question. Honestly, I would it was so fun

1110
01:02:49,840 --> 01:02:58,400
Speaker 3: and I think I wouldn't do much differently, to be honest.

1111
01:02:58,440 --> 01:03:02,240
Speaker 3: I would maybe make it longer. I would maybe film

1112
01:03:02,280 --> 01:03:07,280
Speaker 3: her more, just because like there were moments where I

1113
01:03:07,320 --> 01:03:10,360
Speaker 3: was filming her where I could feel and I think

1114
01:03:10,360 --> 01:03:12,240
Speaker 3: I write about this a little bit. I could feel

1115
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:16,080
Speaker 3: like I'm going to remember her this way, like in

1116
01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:18,720
Speaker 3: forty years when she's not here, like I'm gonna remember this.

1117
01:03:18,800 --> 01:03:22,120
Speaker 3: I could like feel my brain taking a polaroid of it,

1118
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:26,600
Speaker 3: and I'm like, and that's something that I really mourn

1119
01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:29,600
Speaker 3: about the death of my grandmother in two thousand and

1120
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:33,480
Speaker 3: she died in twenty ten. Is that like it was

1121
01:03:33,560 --> 01:03:36,640
Speaker 3: really before iPhones and iCloud, where you just had like

1122
01:03:36,880 --> 01:03:40,760
Speaker 3: endless video of everybody like and I like don't have

1123
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:43,960
Speaker 3: much video of her talking. And she was so funny

1124
01:03:44,000 --> 01:03:48,360
Speaker 3: and so just gossipy and mean in a way in

1125
01:03:48,440 --> 01:03:50,080
Speaker 3: such a way my mom is not. So it was

1126
01:03:50,120 --> 01:03:52,640
Speaker 3: like my grandmother was like this idea of like, wow,

1127
01:03:52,680 --> 01:03:57,120
Speaker 3: adults can be cool, like scary cool. Yeah, And I

1128
01:03:57,160 --> 01:04:00,680
Speaker 3: would do anything to have like her voice and hours

1129
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:03,040
Speaker 3: of video, and I'm so glad I do have that

1130
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:04,400
Speaker 3: of my mom, and I would just like, I know,

1131
01:04:04,440 --> 01:04:05,360
Speaker 3: I'm just going to want more.

1132
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:09,280
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, and I'll wrap up with this question. But

1133
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:11,680
Speaker 1: I was just thinking as you were saying that, like

1134
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:15,400
Speaker 1: if there was an overwriting lesson, because for me, I

1135
01:04:15,440 --> 01:04:20,640
Speaker 1: hear you making this beautiful point that in this world

1136
01:04:20,720 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 1: we don't have to agree on everything to have relationships

1137
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:25,680
Speaker 1: with people. But is there an overriding lesson that you

1138
01:04:25,800 --> 01:04:29,480
Speaker 1: walked away from this experience, from writing this book, from

1139
01:04:29,560 --> 01:04:32,520
Speaker 1: just like realizing your mom's not going to be here forever.

1140
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:35,080
Speaker 1: So what are the things that you're going to take

1141
01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:37,360
Speaker 1: away from this experience?

1142
01:04:40,280 --> 01:04:45,600
Speaker 3: I I'm realizing this is actually a theme with like

1143
01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:52,040
Speaker 3: all the books I've written, and it's I'm just obsessed

1144
01:04:52,040 --> 01:04:55,560
Speaker 3: with the concept of the experiential self versus the narrative self.

1145
01:04:55,880 --> 01:04:58,520
Speaker 3: The experiential self is the person that's just like living

1146
01:04:58,600 --> 01:05:01,760
Speaker 3: day to day, going through your day. The narrative self

1147
01:05:01,800 --> 01:05:05,000
Speaker 3: is like, is this the life story I want to tell? Like?

1148
01:05:05,160 --> 01:05:07,200
Speaker 3: Is this who I want to be? Am I proud

1149
01:05:07,240 --> 01:05:11,439
Speaker 3: of myself right now? You know? Like, and I think

1150
01:05:11,480 --> 01:05:16,720
Speaker 3: when we think about our parents and that that relationship

1151
01:05:16,800 --> 01:05:21,480
Speaker 3: that is so integral to our identity? Are you proud

1152
01:05:21,560 --> 01:05:26,840
Speaker 3: of yourself? Like, make yourself proud if you like, spend

1153
01:05:26,880 --> 01:05:28,680
Speaker 3: time with them, go on a road trip, go on

1154
01:05:28,760 --> 01:05:32,040
Speaker 3: a trip, even if it's hard, Like they will be

1155
01:05:32,120 --> 01:05:36,600
Speaker 3: gone one day and you'll I just like, am so

1156
01:05:37,960 --> 01:05:41,400
Speaker 3: like a verse to regret that. I just like, I'm like,

1157
01:05:41,480 --> 01:05:44,120
Speaker 3: I'm not going to regret this, Like even if we fight,

1158
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:46,160
Speaker 3: at least she'll know I loved her.

1159
01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:49,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that.

1160
01:05:49,040 --> 01:05:54,400
Speaker 3: I love that, And I think, yeah, so just I've

1161
01:05:54,440 --> 01:05:57,280
Speaker 3: actually been this Mother Nature book, Like when I sign

1162
01:05:57,280 --> 01:06:00,920
Speaker 3: it randomly in bookstores to strangers, I'll write, make yourself proud,

1163
01:06:02,320 --> 01:06:03,000
Speaker 3: just because.

1164
01:06:02,760 --> 01:06:03,160
Speaker 2: I like.

1165
01:06:04,640 --> 01:06:07,160
Speaker 3: I want people to do that, like make yourself proud,

1166
01:06:07,960 --> 01:06:10,240
Speaker 3: Like do the thing even if it's hard, that like

1167
01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:12,240
Speaker 3: you'll look back and be like, God, I'm glad I

1168
01:06:12,240 --> 01:06:12,520
Speaker 3: did that.

1169
01:06:13,320 --> 01:06:15,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, it kind of goes with that quote. I think

1170
01:06:15,600 --> 01:06:18,960
Speaker 1: it's my Angelau who said people will remember the way

1171
01:06:18,960 --> 01:06:21,160
Speaker 1: you treated them. So it's just about the way we

1172
01:06:21,200 --> 01:06:23,320
Speaker 1: are in relationship. It's really what we're all here. That's

1173
01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:27,320
Speaker 1: what it's all about, right, just giving and receiving of love,

1174
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:30,040
Speaker 1: all of those things, And I think so often we

1175
01:06:30,160 --> 01:06:30,840
Speaker 1: just miss that.

1176
01:06:31,800 --> 01:06:35,040
Speaker 4: Well, I think our narrative self talks us out of

1177
01:06:35,440 --> 01:06:39,680
Speaker 4: the experiential self so much. And I know personally, like

1178
01:06:39,880 --> 01:06:42,120
Speaker 4: I like my experiential self so much more than my

1179
01:06:42,200 --> 01:06:45,800
Speaker 4: narrative self. But I also my narrative self isn't the

1180
01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:47,040
Speaker 4: way that other people see me.

1181
01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:48,320
Speaker 2: It's what I've told myself.

1182
01:06:49,640 --> 01:06:53,800
Speaker 3: And well, the narrative self can be totally toxic because

1183
01:06:53,840 --> 01:06:58,520
Speaker 3: the narrative is also the myth making you have around yourself.

1184
01:06:58,560 --> 01:07:00,240
Speaker 3: And if you've been told you need to be married

1185
01:07:00,280 --> 01:07:02,440
Speaker 3: to a woman by twenty five and you need to

1186
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:04,200
Speaker 3: have a house by twenty seven and you need to

1187
01:07:04,200 --> 01:07:05,920
Speaker 3: have two and a half kids by thirty one, and

1188
01:07:06,320 --> 01:07:08,680
Speaker 3: like that's the narrative self and when you and the

1189
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:12,480
Speaker 3: experiential self says, shut up, I'm just over here living

1190
01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:16,720
Speaker 3: learning lessons like get away from me with these expectations. Yeah, yeah,

1191
01:07:16,240 --> 01:07:19,560
Speaker 3: so so. But I like am such a student and

1192
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:23,320
Speaker 3: a believer of like developing a healthy narrative self and

1193
01:07:23,360 --> 01:07:27,360
Speaker 3: being pursuing that concept of like what is my life

1194
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:29,200
Speaker 3: story and is it something I'm proud of?

1195
01:07:29,880 --> 01:07:30,400
Speaker 1: Yeah?

1196
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:33,080
Speaker 3: And what is the source of my pride? Like those things,

1197
01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:35,880
Speaker 3: and that's the narrative and experiential self are always talking

1198
01:07:35,920 --> 01:07:39,840
Speaker 3: to each other and like you, my narratives, I mean,

1199
01:07:39,880 --> 01:07:43,320
Speaker 3: my experiential self has really kicked my narrative self's ass

1200
01:07:43,760 --> 01:07:47,080
Speaker 3: and said no, no, no, we're doing this yeah, which

1201
01:07:47,120 --> 01:07:47,520
Speaker 3: I love.

1202
01:07:48,080 --> 01:07:50,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, what a good life lesson. Well, the book is

1203
01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:54,200
Speaker 1: Mother Nature, so we I will put the link for

1204
01:07:54,240 --> 01:07:56,200
Speaker 1: that in the description of this podcast for you guys.

1205
01:07:56,200 --> 01:07:58,160
Speaker 1: Like I said, Schip and I both were obsessed with it,

1206
01:07:58,240 --> 01:08:01,560
Speaker 1: so we highly recommend Jededie. Where else can people find

1207
01:08:01,680 --> 01:08:03,080
Speaker 1: you if they want to keep up with you?

1208
01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:05,800
Speaker 3: I have had the time of my life on this podcast.

1209
01:08:06,080 --> 01:08:06,760
Speaker 1: Amazing.

1210
01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:08,120
Speaker 2: I'm so glad it worked out.

1211
01:08:09,680 --> 01:08:13,960
Speaker 3: Honestly, I just used Instagram. It's the easiest. It's just

1212
01:08:13,960 --> 01:08:20,120
Speaker 3: my name, Jedediah Jenkins, like spelled like Jedi Daya. I

1213
01:08:20,120 --> 01:08:24,360
Speaker 3: don't know, strange name, but yeah, and then just talk

1214
01:08:24,400 --> 01:08:25,280
Speaker 3: to me on there. It's fun.

1215
01:08:25,840 --> 01:08:28,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, we'll put that in the description of this podcast

1216
01:08:28,240 --> 01:08:30,400
Speaker 1: as well. Well. Thank you guys for listening, and thank

1217
01:08:30,439 --> 01:08:33,240
Speaker 1: you so much for being here. We loved it too, Oh.

1218
01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:34,680
Speaker 3: I loved it. Okay, I'll see you at home at

1219
01:08:34,680 --> 01:08:36,519
Speaker 3: Barb at Barb