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Speaker 1: the art world is an unregulated business. Billions of dollars.
Speaker 1: It is essentially a money laundering business. You're working with
Speaker 1: an artificial scarcity of market, and so it's fraud with
Speaker 1: people cutting corners and things happening. It was when a Freedman,
Speaker 1: then the newly minted director of the Nidler Gallery First
Speaker 1: met Rosalis, had a soho art opening. Larry Rubin had
Speaker 1: been pushed out of Ndler a year earlier in a
Speaker 1: coup that ended with Ann Friedman being installed at the
Speaker 1: blessing of Michael Hammer. Knoedler's sails were flat, the clients
Speaker 1: were leaving in droves, and Anne Friedman needed new work
Speaker 1: to help propel the gallery forward. The Knoedler, always one
Speaker 1: step behind the times, was hurtling towards the art world
Speaker 1: of a new millennium. The galley's long time assistant, heime Andrade,
Speaker 1: had introduced Ann to the soft spoken, polite woman of
Speaker 1: Mexican heritage. As fate would have it, Glephara Rosalez had
Speaker 1: two works of art on paper she wanted to sell. About.
Speaker 1: All that any one could agree on was that heime
Speaker 1: Andrade was a shy Equadorian man of modest height. He
Speaker 1: was one of eleven children who had come to New
Speaker 1: York in the early nineteen sixties and found a home
Speaker 1: in a circle of artificionados. He'd made his way to
Speaker 1: Larry Reuben's gallery on fifty seventh Street and worked as
Speaker 1: the galley's driver. Reuben had then brought him over to
Speaker 1: Knoedler as a sort of jack of old trades. His
Speaker 1: job was to do pretty much whatever anyone wanted him
Speaker 1: to do. As Anne put it in one of her
Speaker 1: interviews for Vanity Fair, he would do everything from changing
Speaker 1: light fixtures to running errands. But he always wore a
Speaker 1: blazer and a tie and went to fancy dinner parties
Speaker 1: and escorted well to do women. He was like a mascot,
Speaker 1: but I mean that in a respectful way. He epitomized
Speaker 1: the spirit of the gallery. Despite a faulty grasp of English.
Speaker 1: After half a century, Hymie was perfectly capable of charming
Speaker 1: one of those women into buying a painting from Knodler.
Speaker 1: Andrade's greatest passion was Latin American art. As late as
Speaker 1: two thousand eleven, while the forgery ring was metastasizing amid
Speaker 1: criminal investigations, the boyish Andrade gave a talk about Ecuadorian
Speaker 1: art and his fifty years of immersion in it at
Speaker 1: the mid Manhattan Library. The Knodler, in a press release
Speaker 1: for it, would describe Andrat's longtime friend and dealer David
Speaker 1: Herbert as quote one of the best American portrait artists
Speaker 1: unquote that was patently untrue. But Herbert, upon his death,
Speaker 1: would be cast in another role as a central figure
Speaker 1: in the back story of Ndler's conspiracy of fakes, possibly
Speaker 1: aided and embedded by hime Andrade, who had just become
Speaker 1: David Herbert's executor. With boxes of documents rich in art
Speaker 1: world lore, Anne would never quite come out and say
Speaker 1: explicitly that him may have steered her to the papers
Speaker 1: that gave rise to a conspiracy ring of art forgers,
Speaker 1: but more than one k Noodler's staffer would take umbrage
Speaker 1: at the way Anne defended him less than forcefully in
Speaker 1: Vanity Fair. Was Anne implying that hime Andrade had reduced
Speaker 1: her to Glafia Rosales knowing the two works at issue
Speaker 1: were fake, or had I made done no more than
Speaker 1: to introduce his boss to a Mexican woman who shared
Speaker 1: his love of Latin American arts. Here again is writer
Speaker 1: Michael Shnayerson. Leslie Feeley took a dim review of Anne
Speaker 1: and her treatment of Himie. She said Anne treated Himie
Speaker 1: more like a gopher than a mascot. Quote. He was
Speaker 1: a very kind, dignified man, but Anne would send him
Speaker 1: out to get her tampons. Unquote. He had a poor education,
Speaker 1: the legacy of his childhood in Ecuador. Jimmy was a gopher.
Speaker 1: He that's he was. He was going and he got
Speaker 1: to know a lot of people in the art business.
Speaker 1: He had more aught in his home, but all South American.
Speaker 1: That's the Noteler's art handler. Joe Stevens Andrade rented a
Speaker 1: ground floor apartment in an ornate but musty rental building
Speaker 1: at seventeen East seventieth Street, literally next door to the Noodler.
Speaker 1: He seemed to like being on call for whatever needs
Speaker 1: a rose. I used to stay there whenever I had
Speaker 1: openings because I worked so late, and now I don't.
Speaker 1: I used to go to my wife said don't I'm
Speaker 1: gonna come. I'm sand he niece, because Jimmy, we'd go
Speaker 1: a call out and have you know, you know, at
Speaker 1: ten o'clock, ten thirty at night, after we locked up
Speaker 1: and tell me about the apartment that he had. It
Speaker 1: was stuffed, like this place is three four times bigger
Speaker 1: than his apartment. He had a huge and art work everywhere.
Speaker 1: Fifty pieces on the wall is big. He had all
Speaker 1: this African South American sculptures everywhere, boxes everywhere. You couldn't
Speaker 1: put another thing on that counter. That's a packed. He
Speaker 1: had closets filled with this stuff. He was like, it
Speaker 1: looked like a whoid uphoid did everything. Rosalee and Androde
Speaker 1: had struck up a friendship based on Latin American art
Speaker 1: sometime in the late nineteen nineties. At some point, Rosalvas
Speaker 1: mentioned she was trying to sell two works on paper
Speaker 1: by Richard Deepencorn, the great abstract artist represented for years
Speaker 1: by the Knoedler Gallery until Larry Reuben's departure and Anne's promotion.
Speaker 1: Didai may think Ann Friedman might take a look and
Speaker 1: tell Glyphia what she thought. This was a pivotal moment,
Speaker 1: the first time Glyphia Rosalis focused on Ann Friedman as
Speaker 1: her target for newly minted forgeries. Soon enough, Ann Friedman
Speaker 1: found herself looking at a pair of classic deepen Corn drawings. Sadly,
Speaker 1: that great profusion of Ocean Park paintings and drawings. All
Speaker 1: those Christmas mornings the staff had described opening brand new
Speaker 1: deep In Corn work had come to an end. Deepen
Speaker 1: Corn had died in nineteen ninety three, and his daughter
Speaker 1: Gretchen and son in law Richard Grant, co heads of
Speaker 1: the Artists Foundation, had ended the galleries long association with
Speaker 1: deep and Corn. They didn't much like Ann Friedman. They
Speaker 1: liked her even less after the coup that put her
Speaker 1: in charge. Still, Noodler was widely known as deep and
Speaker 1: Corn's main gallery. There would be no more primary works
Speaker 1: directly from the artist, but secondary works, those that had
Speaker 1: changed hands at least once, were fair game for anyone
Speaker 1: who wanted to buy or sell them, and Nodler could
Speaker 1: put buyers and sellers together as well or better than
Speaker 1: anyone else, given its history with the artist. So when
Speaker 1: GPA offered to show an too Deepen Corns, the Nodler's
Speaker 1: director jumped the chance. Days after Anne's coup in novemb
Speaker 1: a certain calm had come over the Knoedler Gallery. Larry
Speaker 1: Reuben had even agreed to stay on as director until
Speaker 1: the last day of the year. The old art World
Speaker 1: War horse had recovered his spirits somewhat and shrugged off
Speaker 1: the coup. Perhaps it was time for him to leave
Speaker 1: Niedler after all. Gracefully, he even did Ann Friedman a
Speaker 1: favor by agreeing to take a look at the too
Speaker 1: Deep and Corn works on paper. Like most of Deep
Speaker 1: and Corn's work since the mid nineteen sixties, these were
Speaker 1: geometrical abstractions from his Ocean Park series. When Anne asked
Speaker 1: where they'd come from, Rosalas demurred. Regrettably. She said her
Speaker 1: client wanted to remain anonymous. That was hardly unusual for
Speaker 1: works brought in by perfect strangers. Unfortunately, neither of the
Speaker 1: drawings had identifying marks on their verso verso is what
Speaker 1: dealers call the back of an artwork, no record of
Speaker 1: the works tracing back to the artist's studio. There was
Speaker 1: no trace of later buyers and sellers, no auction markings either.
Speaker 1: In a word, the drawings had no provenance. That was
Speaker 1: a problem. So what is provenance. It's the paper trail
Speaker 1: of what we know about an artwork, starting from the
Speaker 1: time it was created. It tells us who owned it,
Speaker 1: when it was sold, where it was shown, and so forth.
Speaker 1: Had Deep and Corn been alive? The issue of provenance
Speaker 1: for these works would have been moot. After all, the
Speaker 1: artist was the best judge of his own work. He
Speaker 1: could say in an instant whether these two drawings were
Speaker 1: done by his hand or not. When an artist died,
Speaker 1: the primary work he left behind in his studio or
Speaker 1: home was easy to judge and usually genuine too, so
Speaker 1: it wasn't difficult for the artist's family or executor to
Speaker 1: authenticate those works and record them for posterity. The challenge
Speaker 1: came with secondary works sold after the artist's death, works
Speaker 1: bought and sold and bought again, works that sometimes vanished
Speaker 1: and and reappeared. Were they real or not? An artist
Speaker 1: like deep and Corn post a special challenge. His Ocean
Speaker 1: Park works were all beautiful, but also quite similar. Larry Reuben,
Speaker 1: as it turned out, was underwhelmed by the ocean park
Speaker 1: esque drawings, and Friedman showed him quote. I told her
Speaker 1: I did not think they were good, Reuben later told
Speaker 1: Vanity fair, which was to say I thought they were fake.
Speaker 1: He said the gallery couldn't or certainly shouldn't sell them.
Speaker 1: Not long after, deepn Corn's widow, Phillis, paid a visit
Speaker 1: to the Noddler with her daughter Gretchen, and Friedman had
Speaker 1: called the drawings to their attention, and the family were
Speaker 1: worried about them. When Anne laid them out on a
Speaker 1: table at the gallery, Gretchen and Phillis stared at those
Speaker 1: drawings for a long time. They looked quite good. We really,
Speaker 1: we're pretty impressed. It was clearly a beautiful piece. I
Speaker 1: am Gretchen deep in corn Grant. My father is Richard
Speaker 1: deep and Corny. Despite the exceptional quality of the works,
Speaker 1: the family felt they were not authentic. You could see
Speaker 1: the hand of the forger in both of them. You
Speaker 1: look at someone's work long enough, and my entire life
Speaker 1: seventy six years old, so I was alive during my
Speaker 1: father's career, and you have a sense of it. Not perfect,
Speaker 1: but you do have a pretty good sense. What I
Speaker 1: said to and at the time was that the problem
Speaker 1: for me was that they didn't have any soul. They
Speaker 1: didn't seem to breathe. I just couldn't relate to it,
Speaker 1: even though it was clearly a beautiful piece, and reactions
Speaker 1: surprised them. She didn't even thank them for calling attention
Speaker 1: to what might be fake Deepen corns. Neither did she
Speaker 1: suggest she would hand them back to their owner, whoever
Speaker 1: They might be. The whole question of what the nobler
Speaker 1: might do with them was simply not addressed. Of course,
Speaker 1: she didn't say to a freedman, I think they are fake,
Speaker 1: because you know, in the art world you cannot call
Speaker 1: something a fake because if you do so, you might
Speaker 1: be sued for defamation of property. So people are very careful.
Speaker 1: J Seli Reggaetel is a reporter currently with the Center
Speaker 1: for Investigative Reporting. She pursued the Notler story for several
Speaker 1: years and came up with a few scoops, starting with
Speaker 1: the story of Dr Bernard Krueger. They might say this
Speaker 1: doesn't look right, but you don't quite say this is fake.
Speaker 1: So it's quite interesting that I talked to both Rush
Speaker 1: and Demnquirn as she was seeing this, this pieces as
Speaker 1: they were about to be sold, and then I also
Speaker 1: talked to Bernard Krueger, who was looking at the pieces
Speaker 1: from the buyer's perspective, and in both instances, you see
Speaker 1: there were several things strange about this. You know, where
Speaker 1: they were coming from, how they looked, how much they
Speaker 1: were being offered. All of those things adapt to you know,
Speaker 1: there's something strange happening here. Here's Francis Beatty again. I
Speaker 1: do remember going to a deep and Corn show of
Speaker 1: deep and corn works on paper and someone saying to me,
Speaker 1: you have to be super careful because you want to
Speaker 1: make sure that you're not buying one of the things
Speaker 1: that the family has disavowed. And the idea that you
Speaker 1: would show something, let alone sell it, that the family
Speaker 1: of the artist has disavowed, is absolutely shocking. I mean,
Speaker 1: you have a responsibility to your client, and if something
Speaker 1: has a cloud over it, the cloud is never going
Speaker 1: to disperse. Since the drawings were secondary market works, the
Speaker 1: family couldn't keep Ann Friedman from doing what she wanted
Speaker 1: with them, which was, of course, to sell them. As
Speaker 1: Larry Reuben later told Vanity Fair and Freedman could justify
Speaker 1: selling those two drawings because the artist's wife had not
Speaker 1: called them fake, nor had Larry Reuben. I wasn't one
Speaker 1: sure they weren't real, Reuben explained later. And you can
Speaker 1: get into a lot of trouble by declaring something as
Speaker 1: fake when you don't have the hard evidence. And since
Speaker 1: I was leaving, I said to Anne, fine, you handle it,
Speaker 1: and she did. Despite the doubts expressed by the family
Speaker 1: and Freedman sold the deep and corn drawings to the
Speaker 1: perfect buyer. More art fraud in a minute. Hi, I'm
Speaker 1: Joe Piazza, the host of Under the Influence. On season
Speaker 1: two of our podcast, we're exploring what it means to
Speaker 1: be a woman on social media. We're going into different
Speaker 1: pockets of influencing to talk about how Instagram is a
Speaker 1: reflection of all the ways that women are mistreated in
Speaker 1: our society. We're going into some of the darkest corners
Speaker 1: of the social media universe and we might just have
Speaker 1: a plan to shut it all that held down. Listen
Speaker 1: to season two of Under the Influence with Joe Piazza
Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Arden Marine from Shameless
Speaker 1: and Stationable, Chelsea Lately and the I Heart Radio podcast
Speaker 1: Will You Accept This Rose? And I'm Julianne Robinson and
Speaker 1: Emmy and bafta nominated director most recently of Bridgetin. And
Speaker 1: we are the hosts of Lady of the Road, a
Speaker 1: funny and inspiring podcast where we have come stations with
Speaker 1: influential women about their lives and we get self help advice.
Speaker 1: We're always looking to improve ourselves and we figure there's
Speaker 1: no better source for learning how to be brave, take
Speaker 1: risks and advocate for yourself in life than speaking with motivating,
Speaker 1: uplifting women. Some of them we've met throughout our careers
Speaker 1: and some of them were just meeting now. We talk
Speaker 1: about money, health, relationships, parenthood, running a business, you name it,
Speaker 1: from inspiring women like Joan Jet, Nicole Buyer, Lauren Lobkis Htta,
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Speaker 1: from Cavalry Audio, the studio that brought you The Devil
Speaker 1: Within and The Shadow Girls, comes a new true crime podcast,
Speaker 1: The Pink Moon Murders. The local sheriff believes there may
Speaker 1: be more than one killer. It's been four days since
Speaker 1: those bodies were found and there's no arrest as it
Speaker 1: this morning. They were afraid to face it out in
Speaker 1: that area, what if they come back or whatever. It
Speaker 1: scared me to death, Like it scared me, I was
Speaker 1: very very intimidating to live here. Crazy to think you
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Speaker 1: a struggle for your life, which you lose. Joint host
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Speaker 1: Not long after the Deep and Corn families disconcerting visit
Speaker 1: to Knoedler, a doctor named Bernard Krueger received a phone
Speaker 1: call he never expected to get. Krueger was a collector,
Speaker 1: perhaps not a great collector, but an eager one, especially
Speaker 1: in regard to Richard deep In Corn's work. He liked
Speaker 1: to think he had an inside track. He was, after all,
Speaker 1: and Friedman's doctor. He told me he loved Devoncorn's work
Speaker 1: for many years, and at the time he was alive
Speaker 1: in the nineties, and even before that, I think he
Speaker 1: started buying the first diven corns in the eighties. He
Speaker 1: had to go through Knodler because at the time Richard
Speaker 1: Devon Corn was alive and Knodler represented him. And what
Speaker 1: ben Krueger told me is that every time he wanted
Speaker 1: to buy a piece, it was not easy. You would
Speaker 1: think you have money, you want to buy a piece
Speaker 1: of art. You walk in and say, I want this,
Speaker 1: But that's not how it works in the art world.
Speaker 1: You know, there is no like free market, or you know,
Speaker 1: they sell for whoever they want to sell, and they
Speaker 1: might give a price to me and a different price
Speaker 1: to you. And the way that Bernard described to me
Speaker 1: is that in Freedman quite difficult and quite protective, and
Speaker 1: she would say to him, no, you cannot buy this one.
Speaker 1: If you want, you can buy this other one. He
Speaker 1: said to me, I would need to beg to buy,
Speaker 1: and sometimes she would let me buy, and sometimes she wouldn't.
Speaker 1: And I asked him why why would she do that?
Speaker 1: And he said, well, that was her way of having
Speaker 1: power and having control. Despite having an inside track as
Speaker 1: hands doctor Bernard Krueger was having a difficult time purchasing
Speaker 1: a work from the artist he most coveted. Surprisingly, all
Speaker 1: of that would change after Deep and Corn passed away
Speaker 1: in early and all of a sudden, Bernard Krueger gets
Speaker 1: a call from Knoedler saying, we have the two dippen
Speaker 1: corns for you to see. You know, they just came in.
Speaker 1: I think you would like it. I was already like,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, don't you think that was change? For years,
Speaker 1: you've been begging to buy a dipping corn, all of
Speaker 1: her sudden they're calling you and offer you a dipping corn.
Speaker 1: And he said no. I thought I was great. I
Speaker 1: thought I was finally getting a good deal on a
Speaker 1: dipping corn because he bought one of them, and that
Speaker 1: was one of the fakes. If I remember the numbers right.
Speaker 1: He told me the last depon corn he had bought
Speaker 1: for like a hundred twenty five hundred thirty five thousand,
Speaker 1: and that when he bought for eighty thou dollars. So
Speaker 1: again he was thrilled. He's like, all of a sudden
Speaker 1: had been offered a deep and corn, and it's cheaper
Speaker 1: than the last one I bought. Loadler did well by
Speaker 1: those two Deep and Corn sales, earning forty five thousand
Speaker 1: dollars on each. When word of the sale reached the
Speaker 1: deep and Corn family, they were shocked, As the late
Speaker 1: artist's daughter, Gretchen said, we thought, being the naive people
Speaker 1: we were and being honest, we basically thought she would
Speaker 1: simply return them and that would be that. Instead, she
Speaker 1: wrote a letter to my mother and to me that
Speaker 1: we had come to the gallery and authenticated these works,
Speaker 1: and therefore she had sold them, and we were very distressed.
Speaker 1: I wanted to write to Anne and tell her that
Speaker 1: this was not okay and that we had not authenticated them.
Speaker 1: She can sell whatever she wants, but she can't say
Speaker 1: that we authenticated it. And my mother was very shy
Speaker 1: about being in an antagonistic position with anybody, and she
Speaker 1: really didn't want me to write for on behalf of
Speaker 1: myself or on behalf of her, and so that was dropped. Later,
Speaker 1: Dr Krueger would say he had sold the works and
Speaker 1: had no idea where they were perhaps, But over the
Speaker 1: next fifteen years the Deepened Corns would routinely here of
Speaker 1: fake Deepen Corn works on paper popping up in the market.
Speaker 1: Each new appearance meant that some new owner was trying
Speaker 1: to unload his Deepen Corns, either with or without the
Speaker 1: knowledge that they were fake. When the works once again vanished,
Speaker 1: the implication was just as clear. Some new owner had
Speaker 1: been duped or worse, set out to con his own
Speaker 1: next prospective buyer. In the years to come, stories like
Speaker 1: that would find their way to the Deepen Corn Foundation
Speaker 1: on a regular basis. Eventually, the family counted some two
Speaker 1: d and fifty deep in Corn images around the world,
Speaker 1: submitted for authentication or just out of curiosity. They ranged
Speaker 1: from the occasional top drawer forgery to an art student's
Speaker 1: homage for class credit left in a garage to be
Speaker 1: celebrated briefly as the real McCoy. Times were tough in
Speaker 1: the art market, and few galleries were feeling it as
Speaker 1: much as Noler, which had little to live on after
Speaker 1: Larry Reuben's departure other than its reputation and venerability. I mean,
Speaker 1: she wasn't making much money at I mean, business wasn't good,
Speaker 1: and so she needs something was needed, something really special need. Still,
Speaker 1: Anne seemed to harbor lingering concerns about those works. Perhaps
Speaker 1: she was eager to prove their authenticity to herself and
Speaker 1: to pave the way for more paintings from Glafira Rosales.
Speaker 1: Surely Gafia could share with Anna telling detail or two
Speaker 1: details to assure her the works had some shred of provenance.
Speaker 1: Gently but firmly declined to say anything about where the
Speaker 1: deep and corn drawings had come from. She would only
Speaker 1: say she was representing a man she called mister X Junior,
Speaker 1: whose parents had passed on to their son more paintings
Speaker 1: by some of the best known artists of the post
Speaker 1: war period. Soon enough, Anne was calling him mister ex
Speaker 1: Junior too, and referring to his parents as mister and
Speaker 1: missus X. It sounded a bit silly, but maybe a
Speaker 1: van played ball Glyphia might introduce Anne to mister ex Junior.
Speaker 1: Glyphia did say that mister ex Junior had more works
Speaker 1: to sell if they could be placed discreetly. These were
Speaker 1: works that had been long stored by mister X hermetically sealed.
Speaker 1: Even Glyphia had said the paintings had been in storage
Speaker 1: for so long that critics and collectors would be thrilled
Speaker 1: to see these lost masterpieces finally unwrapped. I have never
Speaker 1: and I actually don't have any colleagues who I know
Speaker 1: who have regularly managed to obtain from a private person
Speaker 1: a picture for let's say two hundred thousand dollars that
Speaker 1: then they could sell for eight hundred thousand dollars. I mean,
Speaker 1: it just simply doesn't happen. If somebody came to me
Speaker 1: and said, I want to sell you this Clifford Still,
Speaker 1: and I know that the Clifford still's fair market price
Speaker 1: would be a million, and they say to me, well,
Speaker 1: I'm going to sell it to you for two hundred thousand,
Speaker 1: I would think immediately that it was hot. What other conclusion.
Speaker 1: It's the same in any business. I think if you're
Speaker 1: a diamond merchant, somebody comes to you with the diamond
Speaker 1: and they're selling it to you for twenty percent of
Speaker 1: its real value, you would assume that there was something
Speaker 1: wrong with it. You say no, thank you. And if
Speaker 1: you bought a painting by mistake, letting your passions get
Speaker 1: the better of you, what would you do when you
Speaker 1: came to your senses. These things once a while happened
Speaker 1: to dealers. You just you make a mistake, But the
Speaker 1: minute you do, you recognize it, you give the money back.
Speaker 1: You know you you take it, and you learn from it.
Speaker 1: Otherwise you lose your reputation completely. And utterly. So that's
Speaker 1: one of the really key things. It wasn't long before
Speaker 1: Fa Rosalez was back in the Knodler, this time with
Speaker 1: a painting by abstract expressionist Mark Rothko under her arm.
Speaker 1: It was a beautiful work, as Anne described it later,
Speaker 1: with dark orbs against a pale, pink peach backdrop, and
Speaker 1: like the deepen Coorns, it had no provenance other than
Speaker 1: the link to Mr and Mrs X. I think that
Speaker 1: they were the consortium, not just Cliff hear right. They
Speaker 1: created paintings that were actually quite smart because they were
Speaker 1: very highly valued. I'm Maria Condakova. I'm an author, journalist
Speaker 1: and psychologist, the author most recently of the Biggest Bluff
Speaker 1: and also most relevant to this, the Confidence Game. I mean,
Speaker 1: let's be honest, Abstract expressionism is not necessarily the most
Speaker 1: technically advanced paintings. Now. I'm not saying that Rothco is
Speaker 1: non technically advanced. He is. He could paint anything. But
Speaker 1: for someone who's not, you know, incredibly technically advanced painters,
Speaker 1: probably easier to create a Rothco than a rum Round.
Speaker 1: One thing that I think you said in your book,
Speaker 1: it's very important for the con artist not to move
Speaker 1: too quickly. That was the whole part of the what
Speaker 1: I think you call the long con. Something that con artists,
Speaker 1: the good con artists have in abundance is patients. Some
Speaker 1: cons take decades to play out all the way. So
Speaker 1: you really need to be able to see the long
Speaker 1: game and not just be in it for, you know,
Speaker 1: the immediate profit. You need to be able to see
Speaker 1: how does this play out over time. And one thing
Speaker 1: that you have to hand to life Era is, you know,
Speaker 1: she didn't just do her homework on and she did
Speaker 1: her homework on the art mark and how that world
Speaker 1: works and what people expect. If you walk in right
Speaker 1: away with twenty roth Goes and a few Pollocks in there,
Speaker 1: someone's gonna say, Okay, hold on one second, we're going
Speaker 1: to do some very heavy duty analysis on this, but
Speaker 1: one at a time. Lost treasures, you know, we really
Speaker 1: don't want to part with them, but we're we're selling
Speaker 1: them piecemeal. That's much more compelling and invites less screw.
Speaker 1: In the end, she's also building the market for herself
Speaker 1: because now even though there was originally no provenance, now
Speaker 1: a lot of these pieces are in collections and some
Speaker 1: end up making it two shows and to museums, and
Speaker 1: so that creates the provenance that this is the collection
Speaker 1: of Mr X. And some of these have already been
Speaker 1: validated by some of the leading galleries and museums and
Speaker 1: collectors in the world. I think that if someone brought
Speaker 1: me a Rothko who I didn't know and who had
Speaker 1: no kind of bona fides in the art world, I
Speaker 1: would be very suspicious. Where did this person get it?
Speaker 1: And it was stolen? I mean, you don't just go
Speaker 1: wandering around with Rothko's right and did show the painting
Speaker 1: too Ristopher Rothco, son of the late artist, who professed
Speaker 1: to find it beautiful. That was enough for Anne. She
Speaker 1: bought the painting for one thousand dollars from Rosalis. She
Speaker 1: sold it to the Michelle Rosenfeld Gallery for three thousand
Speaker 1: dollars for a gross profit of one hundred nine Later,
Speaker 1: when she heard about the sale, Francis Beatty found Anne's
Speaker 1: strategy underwhelming. If she showed it to Christopher Rothco, I
Speaker 1: would say that would be a good first step, But
Speaker 1: that doesn't tell you where it came from. That doesn't
Speaker 1: tell you that the person has good title to it.
Speaker 1: You know that you would have to investigate a few
Speaker 1: people knew that Nodler was starting to deal in works
Speaker 1: without any provenance. The circle had been confined to a
Speaker 1: and any confederates she might have, as well as the
Speaker 1: staffers at the gallery, who could gossip but hardly take
Speaker 1: on their imperious boss. Leslie Feely recalled seeing one of
Speaker 1: the Rothcoes brought in by Fra. I just walked in
Speaker 1: and saw this great red painting, presuming to be a Rothco.
Speaker 1: I just couldn't even look at it because it was
Speaker 1: so garish and so not by Rothco. And they were
Speaker 1: selling it for at the time million dollars. It was
Speaker 1: not that large, and it was clearly a fake. None
Speaker 1: of these paintings had any provenance, at least of the
Speaker 1: kind that the art market expected, nor were any in
Speaker 1: the catalog resume of Mark Rothko or the soon to
Speaker 1: be completed catalog resume for the late Richard Diebencorn. How
Speaker 1: could it an organization not check the provenance. That's what
Speaker 1: you're supposed to do for an art fairies, was to
Speaker 1: check the provenance and any paint particularly a Rothco. And
Speaker 1: there it was. Nobody took it out, just sitting there,
Speaker 1: but just to play devil's advocate here. Many paintings must
Speaker 1: meet the market with no provenance because the artist has
Speaker 1: just finished them, or or maybe he put them aside
Speaker 1: and got bored with his painting. In the old days,
Speaker 1: you had to ask Jeane thaw On Francis O'Connor to
Speaker 1: write an attestation. I mean recently, there are lots of
Speaker 1: states that don't want to write authenticity, which is very problematic.
Speaker 1: And so what you do is you get people in,
Speaker 1: you sit them down and you say, I'm worried about this.
Speaker 1: You know, this is a picture which has been offered
Speaker 1: to me. I think it looks beautiful, but it has
Speaker 1: I have no provenance on it, and I really need
Speaker 1: to know what you think about it. You ask a
Speaker 1: couple of people, and you do your due diligence because
Speaker 1: you're on the line for it. One of the most
Speaker 1: important aspects of provenance is in an artwork by a
Speaker 1: great established artist be readily found, and that artists catalog resume.
Speaker 1: A catalog resume is done by scholars or a family
Speaker 1: in which they try to write down every single picture
Speaker 1: that to date has been attributed to this artist and
Speaker 1: that they think is legitimate. And typical catalog resume is
Speaker 1: like the Pollock catalog resume. It says where the work
Speaker 1: comes from in scrupulous detail. Sometimes it says whether it's
Speaker 1: been repainted, whether it was in a fire. I mean,
Speaker 1: you try to get as much information as you possibly can.
Speaker 1: You try to docum meant every single picture by that artist.
Speaker 1: You also have to be sure that you're passing something
Speaker 1: that's legitimate or is considered legitimate by the authorities. Of course,
Speaker 1: it does sometimes happen that a painting lacks any provenance.
Speaker 1: It's rare, but it happens. So what do you do?
Speaker 1: Start calling in the experts and hopefully get them to
Speaker 1: look at the actual work, Invite them to a gallery opening,
Speaker 1: steer them to your newly acquired Barnett Newman A Rothko.
Speaker 1: Is there anything wrong with doing what she did? As
Speaker 1: far as that goes, One could argue that Anne and
Speaker 1: asking the Deep and Corn family to look at those
Speaker 1: two works on paper was acting quite properly. No, there's
Speaker 1: nothing wrong with doing that. I mean, you want to
Speaker 1: know what distinguished scholars and what people who are regarded
Speaker 1: to have what we call the art business a good eye,
Speaker 1: in other words, they have you have some reason to
Speaker 1: believe that you would risk your reputation on their say so.
Speaker 1: I guess one important nuance of this is that if
Speaker 1: you want to get that expert's opinion, you are upfront
Speaker 1: about asking him, rather than sort of inveigling him to
Speaker 1: come into your office after hours while everyone's downstairs having
Speaker 1: a glass of wine, and you show this picture and
Speaker 1: the expert says, oh, that's a nice picture, how beautiful.
Speaker 1: That is not the same thing as authentication, which is
Speaker 1: sort of the ultimate stamp of approval. This is just
Speaker 1: an expert, perhaps caught a bit away from office hours
Speaker 1: and saying that looks like a nice painting. It's not proof.
Speaker 1: Could there ever be a situation where you've got enough
Speaker 1: signatures from experts that people would say, yes, that's real.
Speaker 1: I mean, now we all know you have it forensically tested.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you have such a picture that has
Speaker 1: no provenance and you are very suspicious about you get
Speaker 1: it on consignment from whoever it is, and you have
Speaker 1: it tested, you have to get a complete consensus. You
Speaker 1: have to have every single person who could question such
Speaker 1: a thing in line, And then of course you have
Speaker 1: the whole issue. Can you pass good title to this picture?
Speaker 1: Which is I think just as problematic and far more frightening.
Speaker 1: You are passing good title and guaranteeing the authenticity and
Speaker 1: the title. That's what the uniform code says you are
Speaker 1: doing if you write an invoice. The staffers learned to
Speaker 1: keep their distance when Rosalie's name was mentioned whenever something
Speaker 1: about the Rosales works was discussed. One stafford said that
Speaker 1: was a closed door meeting for Anne. That was unusual.
Speaker 1: At all. Other times the door to Anne's second floor
Speaker 1: office was open. Sign new house would step over a
Speaker 1: rope and come on in. A staffer recalls of the
Speaker 1: publishing mogul, so the door was only closed for certain
Speaker 1: sensitive meetings. It was around this time that Anne and
Speaker 1: Glapia held a staff meeting to discuss how many paintings
Speaker 1: remained in the mysterious collection. Rosales identified approximately eight works
Speaker 1: that were still available. There is another still, a Gottlieb too,
Speaker 1: decoon Ngs, a motherwell, a Newman one or two Calledler's.
Speaker 1: That's attorney Emily Rice Baum. Over a decade later, at trial,
Speaker 1: attorneys Gregory Claric, Aaron Crowle, and Emily would present evidence
Speaker 1: of handwritten notes of this infamous meeting. The lawyers noted
Speaker 1: something peculiar about cafe as purported inventory, and then Anne
Speaker 1: asks is there a Pollock? And lo and behold it
Speaker 1: all says I'll go check, yeah, let me check. She
Speaker 1: was not on her list. You would think if she
Speaker 1: had a Jackson Pollock, she would come in and say
Speaker 1: she had a Jackson Pollock. And then it's, you know,
Speaker 1: two years later, having gone to none, she suddenly has five.
Speaker 1: Did someone did discover a missing Pollock in their attic?
Speaker 1: Once every decade or so, does something like that pop up?
Speaker 1: A rothco that roughgo traded with his dentist for some
Speaker 1: dental work. Does that pop up? Sure, you know there's
Speaker 1: one here and there's one there, But are there three?
Speaker 1: Are there five from the same source? Are there eight?
Speaker 1: Are there twelve? Or their twenty? Or there forty one?
Speaker 1: Early Never, despite her initial estimate of having eight paintings
Speaker 1: in the collection, Gafia would manage to deliver over thirty
Speaker 1: more works two Noodler, including five supposed Jackson Pollock's, surprisingly,
Speaker 1: and treated Kndler's own artists just as harshly as she
Speaker 1: treated the galleries assistance, and just trashed her own artists,
Speaker 1: every single one of them. Knodler artist Donald Sulton later
Speaker 1: said she would never answer phone calls. She was completely
Speaker 1: disinterested in the artist she had. She kind of ignored
Speaker 1: everyone who was there. All her dealings were secretive, Sultan said.
Speaker 1: According to Sultan, and was out of her depth. After
Speaker 1: Larry Ruben's departure, Sultan said it was as if the
Speaker 1: director of the Metropolitan Museum of Art was like Philippe Demontebello,
Speaker 1: deciding that he's going to turn the thing over to
Speaker 1: the secretary. According to one staffer who worked close lee
Speaker 1: with her, Anne was not above dramatizing a story to
Speaker 1: sell a painting. There was this painting by Helen Frankenthaler.
Speaker 1: We had hung onto it for a couple of years,
Speaker 1: recalls a staffer. A museum director came into Anne's office
Speaker 1: and had the painting out, and the museum director said,
Speaker 1: where did that come from. The staffer went on to
Speaker 1: say there had been a woman killed in a hit
Speaker 1: and run. This was in the news. She had been
Speaker 1: an art collector and said, I can't really tell you,
Speaker 1: but there was a recent tragedy you might have read
Speaker 1: about in the news, very sad story. The staffer has said.
Speaker 1: In fact, we had bought the painting at auction in
Speaker 1: or whatever. An art net search would have shown it
Speaker 1: hadn't come from this woman's collection, but Anne just lied
Speaker 1: to this director why we probably got it on the
Speaker 1: cheap and Anne was marking it up. On another occasion,
Speaker 1: Anne took in a double paneled Milton Avery painting, which
Speaker 1: was to say that there was a painting on each
Speaker 1: side of the wood, instead of showing it that way
Speaker 1: to the aviaries and reportedly how to conservator split the
Speaker 1: painting down the middle and get two salable works instead
Speaker 1: of one, a considerably greater profit to her and the gallery.
Speaker 1: I asked Francis if this was typical in any way
Speaker 1: for a gallery director. Never in a million years. I mean,
Speaker 1: I you know, you hear these stories about people doing
Speaker 1: them in the kind of olden days, but no one
Speaker 1: would imagine doing that in my era. It's a kind
Speaker 1: of vandalization of an object that you certainly can't do
Speaker 1: without enormous thought, and I would think consultation with lots
Speaker 1: of other people. We'll be right back on the latest
Speaker 1: season of the Next Question with Katie Couric podcast, Katie
Speaker 1: dives into Well Katie Here. Exclusive podcast only conversations between
Speaker 1: Katie and the people who made her memoir Going There Possible.
Speaker 1: We spent a lot of time together around a dining
Speaker 1: room table here and in the city, and you know
Speaker 1: it was a very intense experience. All episodes of Next
Speaker 1: Question with Katie Couric are available now. Listen on the
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Speaker 1: of being a full time podcaster someday, you and I
Speaker 1: have a lot in common. I used to teach history
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Speaker 1: Get paid to talk about the things you love with
Speaker 1: spreaker from my heart Sometimes and seemed drawn by the
Speaker 1: sheer challenge of a newly arrived work. Someone might come
Speaker 1: off the street with a calder and a story recalls
Speaker 1: one staffer, it was my father's and he passed away.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to sell it. In Evitably, the owner didn't
Speaker 1: want to wait long enough to put the calder up
Speaker 1: for auction. The provenance sounded sketchy, but Anne went upstairs
Speaker 1: where the finances were done, and ended up buying it
Speaker 1: for cash. The staffers said, I was thinking, either there's
Speaker 1: something wrong or you're taking this painting and will sell
Speaker 1: it for two or three times the amount. I was
Speaker 1: seeing this for the first time. It was an indication
Speaker 1: to me. Over the next year or two, other deep
Speaker 1: in corn works on paper came in from GlyP Era Rosales.
Speaker 1: Like the first ones, they were ocean park abstracts, but
Speaker 1: they were different in one sense. According to Rosalee, they
Speaker 1: came from the the Honda Gallery in Madrid, indicated by
Speaker 1: the seemingly well worn label on the back of each one.
Speaker 1: The Deep in Corn families doubts about those first two
Speaker 1: drawings seemed to have worried Anne Friedman to She had
Speaker 1: written a letter to Rosalie asking for at least some
Speaker 1: provenance on the newly surfaced the Honda Gallery ocean parks.
Speaker 1: Leslie Feeley recalls and searches for provenance. She would be
Speaker 1: in touch with people who used to work at the
Speaker 1: National Gallery, like a Carmen. I mean, she tried to
Speaker 1: find names that would fool people, and she lied and
Speaker 1: lied and made up these fake provenances. I believe from
Speaker 1: the beginning she knew these were fakes. They had no provenances.
Speaker 1: She made up provenances every day. The Honda Gallery works
Speaker 1: troubled the deep and Corn family as well. We began
Speaker 1: looking up the Handy Gallery and it all seemed very
Speaker 1: strange because all the work that they had handled. You
Speaker 1: can't talk to anybody, they're all dead. But the works
Speaker 1: that they did handle when they were in existence, were very,
Speaker 1: very different from the work that my father did, things
Speaker 1: like Picasso and some of the earlier abstract people. I
Speaker 1: just remember thinking, Wow, that just seems odd. Apparently Rosales
Speaker 1: had made some calls and came up with provenance for
Speaker 1: the Jande Gallery. Deepen corns. The key figure was a
Speaker 1: Spanish restaurant owner named Caesario Fontanella. Supposedly, he told Rosalee
Speaker 1: that he had owned a restaurant called Taverna says Are
Speaker 1: on Fleming Street near Madrid's Castellana Plaza from the late
Speaker 1: nineteen seventies until the Taverna Caesar had been a hangout
Speaker 1: for artists. Everyone from Francis Bacon to Andy Warhol had
Speaker 1: frequented the place, or so Rosalees heard. Nearby was the
Speaker 1: Janda Gallery, said Suzario Fontanella, where many of those artists
Speaker 1: had shown. Fernando Vijande would often bring them over to
Speaker 1: the Taverna. Cesar deep and Corn had been one of
Speaker 1: the regulars, and in a time honored artistic tradition, had
Speaker 1: often paid off his bar bills with art or traded
Speaker 1: his own art. The nimble says our Fontenelle had procured
Speaker 1: his depon corns that way, and kept them for all
Speaker 1: those intervening years, he said, and was selling them only
Speaker 1: now after deepon Corne's death. There was a fine story,
Speaker 1: except that Rodrigo Vijande, the late gallery owner's son, found
Speaker 1: it preposterous. First, he had never heard of the tavernas Caesar.
Speaker 1: He would have known it well if his father patronized it.
Speaker 1: He would have known which artists hung out there, too,
Speaker 1: because Rodrigo had helped run the gallery with his father
Speaker 1: and knew of its artists upon his father's death. In
Speaker 1: the most off key detail of Caesar Fontenelle's story was
Speaker 1: the Taverna's address. Even if it had existed, it wouldn't
Speaker 1: have been a hangout for arti from the the Honda Gallery,
Speaker 1: because it's supposed address on Fleming Street was two or
Speaker 1: three miles from the gallery. Both galleries that my father
Speaker 1: owned in Madrid were right where he lived, in front
Speaker 1: of his house on Nunez de Balboa in the center
Speaker 1: of Madrid, Rodrico explained. Moreover, of the Hondai didn't drive, that,
Speaker 1: declared his son Rodrigo, was why he lived some fifty
Speaker 1: yards from his galleries. At first and Freedman may have
Speaker 1: believed the the Honda Gallery story. Certainly she wanted to
Speaker 1: believe it. If it was true, it might validate the
Speaker 1: half dozen other such ocean parks that GPA Rosalis was
Speaker 1: bringing in one by one. With their now distinctive the
Speaker 1: Honde Gallery labels had cast a glow of authenticity over
Speaker 1: all the ocean park Deepened Corns and over GLPA Rosalee herself.
Speaker 1: But a label isn't proven. It's just a label. If
Speaker 1: the label had been part of a paper trail of ownership,
Speaker 1: the result would have been picture perfect provenance. In this case,
Speaker 1: the trail petered out as soon as it began. What
Speaker 1: was it fair to say that every time you saw
Speaker 1: a deep in corn ocean park that had any label
Speaker 1: on back, that it was almost certainly fake. I think
Speaker 1: one could say that, Yes, she swears that she didn't know,
Speaker 1: which seems hard to believe. That's noodler artist Michael David Again,
Speaker 1: should she have known? Yeah? And is this business fraud
Speaker 1: with people cutting corners with fraud? Absolutely? And Friedman had
Speaker 1: her Deepen Corns with the Honda Gallery labels, but she
Speaker 1: pressed rosal Us for more proof of the works provenance.
Speaker 1: If she wasn't going to uncover an actual paper trail.
Speaker 1: She could do the next best thing. She could find
Speaker 1: experts on the painters whose works were coming in from
Speaker 1: Mr X Jr. Already she had done that with Chris Rothko,
Speaker 1: the late artist's son. Since then another Rothko expert, David Antham,
Speaker 1: had praised it too, and would do her part seeking
Speaker 1: out more art world academics who might inspect the paintings
Speaker 1: as they came in and find that they were true.
Speaker 1: But couldn't Lafia do something to fill in the story
Speaker 1: of the ex family and arranged for Anne to meet
Speaker 1: Mr x Jr. At last, not yet, Rosavas deflected soon,
Speaker 1: she felt soon. But then came the most astonishing accident,
Speaker 1: one that seemed to prove beyond doubt that Mr X
Speaker 1: and his paintings were real after all. In their conversations
Speaker 1: and Anne often talked about art of the post war period,
Speaker 1: Lathira knew a lot enough to impress Anne, and the
Speaker 1: two women share their favorite artists, one of whom was Clifford.
Speaker 1: Still in most cases, a would go through Mr X's
Speaker 1: collection searching for a painting by one of the artists
Speaker 1: and had spoken of with great admiration. Miraculously, Glafira would
Speaker 1: find onefa Rosales told investigators that the galleries would often
Speaker 1: ask her for specific things without asking many questions where
Speaker 1: it came from. So think about this. You are a
Speaker 1: gallery and you are buying painting after painting from this
Speaker 1: woman from Mexico, who says as representing a famous collector.
Speaker 1: So then, as a gallery owner, I turned to her
Speaker 1: and say, so do you think you might happen to
Speaker 1: have some mother will? And then a few weeks later
Speaker 1: she comes with a mother will. I mean, what is
Speaker 1: really the likelihood that this would happen? And would then
Speaker 1: ask her to send an image of the work if
Speaker 1: they'd met with her approval, and would ask Gopa to
Speaker 1: bring the painting in. A standard routine was followed. The
Speaker 1: painting was put in the trunk of Mr X Junior's
Speaker 1: car and transported to a photographer's studio. Pictures were duly
Speaker 1: taken and the painting was then put back in the
Speaker 1: trunk of the car. The plan, as usual, was to
Speaker 1: send the transparencies once they came back from the studio
Speaker 1: to Ann at the Knoedler and would then decide if
Speaker 1: the painting met with her approval. Only then would the
Speaker 1: painting be sent to the gallery. Rosalis soon called Friedman
Speaker 1: with terrible news. While the driver was bringing Mr X's
Speaker 1: Clifford still painting from the photograph for a studio. She
Speaker 1: said there had been an accident. The car had a
Speaker 1: rear engine and the engine had caught fire. The painting
Speaker 1: was nearly destroyed, all but a fragment. When she got
Speaker 1: over her shock and told Rosale's to bring her the fragment,
Speaker 1: the painting was indeed badly burned. It would have been
Speaker 1: two and a half feet by three ft, Friedman said later. Indeed,
Speaker 1: nearly all of the paintings Rosale's would bring were of
Speaker 1: medium scale. To Anne, it made absolute sense that the
Speaker 1: painting had been stored in the trunk. Anne was fascinated
Speaker 1: with the fragment, and more so with the transparency that
Speaker 1: accompanied it. The transparency, after all, showed the whole painting
Speaker 1: before it was consumed by fire. On the drive back
Speaker 1: to Mr X Junior's house, you could see the whole thing,
Speaker 1: and with a fragment you can analyze the front and
Speaker 1: back differently. You can do a touch and feel about it.
Speaker 1: And later said later in telling that story, Ann would
Speaker 1: beam with triumph. Quote would a con artist burn the
Speaker 1: painting and then save a fragment so it could be
Speaker 1: forensically examined if the painting wasn't real, wouldn't that make
Speaker 1: it obvious? Unquote? Everything checked out and declared, including that
Speaker 1: in one of the pigments that Clifford still used in
Speaker 1: many paintings, there's an oxidation that happens. Proof positive the
Speaker 1: pigment proved the painting was real, or so felt Anne
Speaker 1: as for the burned fragment and kept it as proof
Speaker 1: that the first Clifford still Mr x Jr. Had sold
Speaker 1: her had been real as well. One staff are recalled
Speaker 1: that the fragment was kept in a flat white portfolio.
Speaker 1: You could see the burn marks on the edges. It
Speaker 1: was and Friedman's own shroud of Turin Conveniently, Mr Junior
Speaker 1: managed to find another Clifford still in storage and sent
Speaker 1: it along and in turn took it to the annual
Speaker 1: Art Dealers Association of America show at the New York Armory.
Speaker 1: Bill Ruben came by in a wheelchair and said of
Speaker 1: the famous director of the Museum of Modern Art and
Speaker 1: brother of the Nler's former director, Larry Reuben, whom Anne
Speaker 1: had dispatched from the Nler. According to Freedman, Bill Reuben
Speaker 1: looked hard at the Clifford still and said, yes, that's
Speaker 1: a cliff painting. I turned it around for him and
Speaker 1: he confirmed that it was a Clifford Still painting. Bill
Speaker 1: Ruben had been duped by the Rosava's ring too. In reality,
Speaker 1: none of the details in gas story of the burned
Speaker 1: Clifford Still painting were true. Now we know, no fire
Speaker 1: really happened, right did it happened? Actually, Carlos was preparing
Speaker 1: the pieces, and he was treating them with her dryers
Speaker 1: and for in them in coal and had temperatures so
Speaker 1: that one got burned because he forgot to turn the
Speaker 1: hair dryer of, and of course it went in flames.
Speaker 1: And now Anne is waiting for the piece. And what
Speaker 1: is this planation? I'm going to give Carlos tolm It
Speaker 1: will tell them this. I want people to know that
Speaker 1: I have never talked to nobody. I have never been
Speaker 1: interviewed about my life or about this case, except for
Speaker 1: the government of course. More from Glafira Rosale's herself next
Speaker 1: time on art fraud. You have the cool, clear eyes
Speaker 1: of a secret of wisdom and truth. Yet there's that top.
Speaker 1: I'm the Grell loving pat You youth, believe you, leaveing
Speaker 1: you Art Fraud is brought to you by I Heart
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Speaker 1: Keegan Rosenberger, myself and Michael Schneyerson. We're produced by Brandon
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Speaker 1: Lindsay Hoffman is our managing producer. Our writer is Michael Schneyerson.
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Speaker 1: It really is a dream come true to get paid
Speaker 1: to talk about history without all the stress, while still
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