1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:03,200 Speaker 1: The more we learn about COVID nineteen, the more questions 2 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,240 Speaker 1: and worries we have. Cal Hope can help with free 3 00:00:06,240 --> 00:00:10,000 Speaker 1: COVID nineteen emotional support. Call eight three three three one 4 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 1: seven four six seven three or live chat at cal 5 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: hope dot org. Today, he loves me, he loves me not? 6 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:22,959 Speaker 1: He loves me, He loves me not. He loves me not. 7 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:26,520 Speaker 1: So he returned me because he had thirty days to 8 00:00:26,560 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 1: do so, which is plenty of time to discover you 9 00:00:28,920 --> 00:00:33,560 Speaker 1: don't love someone or in my case something, Because surprise, 10 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: I'm a CarMax car who is now back on the market. 11 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,760 Speaker 1: Thirty day money back guarantee. It's car buying reimagined Carmacks 12 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:48,280 Speaker 1: thirty day limits. See carmacks dot com for details. The 13 00:00:48,320 --> 00:00:51,760 Speaker 1: more we learn about COVID nineteen, the more questions we have. 14 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:57,240 Speaker 1: The biggest question now, what's next? What will COVID bring 15 00:00:57,360 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: in six months a year? If you're feeling anxious about 16 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: the future, You're not alone. Cal Hope offers free COVID 17 00:01:05,440 --> 00:01:11,479 Speaker 1: nineteen emotional support. Call eight three three four six seven 18 00:01:11,560 --> 00:01:16,120 Speaker 1: three or live chat at cal hope dot org. Today 19 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: the art world is an unregulated business. Billions of dollars. 20 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: It is essentially a money laundering business. You're working with 21 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:32,480 Speaker 1: an artificial scarcity of market, and so it's fraud with 22 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: people cutting corners and things happening. It was when a Freedman, 23 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 1: then the newly minted director of the Nidler Gallery First 24 00:01:45,440 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: met Rosalis, had a soho art opening. Larry Rubin had 25 00:01:51,720 --> 00:01:54,680 Speaker 1: been pushed out of Ndler a year earlier in a 26 00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:58,600 Speaker 1: coup that ended with Ann Friedman being installed at the 27 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 1: blessing of Michael Hammer. Knoedler's sails were flat, the clients 28 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:06,680 Speaker 1: were leaving in droves, and Anne Friedman needed new work 29 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:11,119 Speaker 1: to help propel the gallery forward. The Knoedler, always one 30 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:15,080 Speaker 1: step behind the times, was hurtling towards the art world 31 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:22,160 Speaker 1: of a new millennium. The galley's long time assistant, heime Andrade, 32 00:02:22,560 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: had introduced Ann to the soft spoken, polite woman of 33 00:02:26,320 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: Mexican heritage. As fate would have it, Glephara Rosalez had 34 00:02:31,160 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 1: two works of art on paper she wanted to sell. About. 35 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: All that any one could agree on was that heime 36 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:43,760 Speaker 1: Andrade was a shy Equadorian man of modest height. He 37 00:02:43,919 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: was one of eleven children who had come to New 38 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 1: York in the early nineteen sixties and found a home 39 00:02:49,880 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: in a circle of artificionados. He'd made his way to 40 00:02:54,680 --> 00:02:58,280 Speaker 1: Larry Reuben's gallery on fifty seventh Street and worked as 41 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: the galley's driver. Reuben had then brought him over to 42 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:04,600 Speaker 1: Knoedler as a sort of jack of old trades. His 43 00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: job was to do pretty much whatever anyone wanted him 44 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 1: to do. As Anne put it in one of her 45 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 1: interviews for Vanity Fair, he would do everything from changing 46 00:03:14,280 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 1: light fixtures to running errands. But he always wore a 47 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: blazer and a tie and went to fancy dinner parties 48 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:24,880 Speaker 1: and escorted well to do women. He was like a mascot, 49 00:03:24,960 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: but I mean that in a respectful way. He epitomized 50 00:03:28,400 --> 00:03:32,800 Speaker 1: the spirit of the gallery. Despite a faulty grasp of English. 51 00:03:33,120 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: After half a century, Hymie was perfectly capable of charming 52 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:39,720 Speaker 1: one of those women into buying a painting from Knodler. 53 00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: Andrade's greatest passion was Latin American art. As late as 54 00:03:45,880 --> 00:03:50,000 Speaker 1: two thousand eleven, while the forgery ring was metastasizing amid 55 00:03:50,120 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: criminal investigations, the boyish Andrade gave a talk about Ecuadorian 56 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 1: art and his fifty years of immersion in it at 57 00:03:58,280 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 1: the mid Manhattan Library. The Knodler, in a press release 58 00:04:03,040 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 1: for it, would describe Andrat's longtime friend and dealer David 59 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:11,440 Speaker 1: Herbert as quote one of the best American portrait artists 60 00:04:11,520 --> 00:04:16,800 Speaker 1: unquote that was patently untrue. But Herbert, upon his death, 61 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,960 Speaker 1: would be cast in another role as a central figure 62 00:04:21,960 --> 00:04:26,240 Speaker 1: in the back story of Ndler's conspiracy of fakes, possibly 63 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: aided and embedded by hime Andrade, who had just become 64 00:04:30,680 --> 00:04:35,200 Speaker 1: David Herbert's executor. With boxes of documents rich in art 65 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 1: world lore, Anne would never quite come out and say 66 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 1: explicitly that him may have steered her to the papers 67 00:04:43,480 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 1: that gave rise to a conspiracy ring of art forgers, 68 00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:50,520 Speaker 1: but more than one k Noodler's staffer would take umbrage 69 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:53,680 Speaker 1: at the way Anne defended him less than forcefully in 70 00:04:53,800 --> 00:05:00,320 Speaker 1: Vanity Fair. Was Anne implying that hime Andrade had reduced 71 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 1: her to Glafia Rosales knowing the two works at issue 72 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,400 Speaker 1: were fake, or had I made done no more than 73 00:05:07,440 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: to introduce his boss to a Mexican woman who shared 74 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: his love of Latin American arts. Here again is writer 75 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,520 Speaker 1: Michael Shnayerson. Leslie Feeley took a dim review of Anne 76 00:05:19,680 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: and her treatment of Himie. She said Anne treated Himie 77 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: more like a gopher than a mascot. Quote. He was 78 00:05:26,400 --> 00:05:29,840 Speaker 1: a very kind, dignified man, but Anne would send him 79 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:33,560 Speaker 1: out to get her tampons. Unquote. He had a poor education, 80 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: the legacy of his childhood in Ecuador. Jimmy was a gopher. 81 00:05:38,640 --> 00:05:42,599 Speaker 1: He that's he was. He was going and he got 82 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:45,320 Speaker 1: to know a lot of people in the art business. 83 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: He had more aught in his home, but all South American. 84 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: That's the Noteler's art handler. Joe Stevens Andrade rented a 85 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: ground floor apartment in an ornate but musty rental building 86 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 1: at seventeen East seventieth Street, literally next door to the Noodler. 87 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: He seemed to like being on call for whatever needs 88 00:06:06,640 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 1: a rose. I used to stay there whenever I had 89 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 1: openings because I worked so late, and now I don't. 90 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 1: I used to go to my wife said don't I'm 91 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,800 Speaker 1: gonna come. I'm sand he niece, because Jimmy, we'd go 92 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:19,720 Speaker 1: a call out and have you know, you know, at 93 00:06:19,720 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: ten o'clock, ten thirty at night, after we locked up 94 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: and tell me about the apartment that he had. It 95 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 1: was stuffed, like this place is three four times bigger 96 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: than his apartment. He had a huge and art work everywhere. 97 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:36,160 Speaker 1: Fifty pieces on the wall is big. He had all 98 00:06:36,240 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 1: this African South American sculptures everywhere, boxes everywhere. You couldn't 99 00:06:44,480 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 1: put another thing on that counter. That's a packed. He 100 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:52,919 Speaker 1: had closets filled with this stuff. He was like, it 101 00:06:52,960 --> 00:06:58,640 Speaker 1: looked like a whoid uphoid did everything. Rosalee and Androde 102 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:02,200 Speaker 1: had struck up a friendship based on Latin American art 103 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: sometime in the late nineteen nineties. At some point, Rosalvas 104 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,040 Speaker 1: mentioned she was trying to sell two works on paper 105 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: by Richard Deepencorn, the great abstract artist represented for years 106 00:07:13,760 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: by the Knoedler Gallery until Larry Reuben's departure and Anne's promotion. 107 00:07:20,160 --> 00:07:22,840 Speaker 1: Didai may think Ann Friedman might take a look and 108 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:27,280 Speaker 1: tell Glyphia what she thought. This was a pivotal moment, 109 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:32,000 Speaker 1: the first time Glyphia Rosalis focused on Ann Friedman as 110 00:07:32,000 --> 00:07:37,880 Speaker 1: her target for newly minted forgeries. Soon enough, Ann Friedman 111 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:43,200 Speaker 1: found herself looking at a pair of classic deepen Corn drawings. Sadly, 112 00:07:43,400 --> 00:07:47,160 Speaker 1: that great profusion of Ocean Park paintings and drawings. All 113 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: those Christmas mornings the staff had described opening brand new 114 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: deep In Corn work had come to an end. Deepen 115 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: Corn had died in nineteen ninety three, and his daughter 116 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:00,760 Speaker 1: Gretchen and son in law Richard Grant, co heads of 117 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,840 Speaker 1: the Artists Foundation, had ended the galleries long association with 118 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,800 Speaker 1: deep and Corn. They didn't much like Ann Friedman. They 119 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,320 Speaker 1: liked her even less after the coup that put her 120 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 1: in charge. Still, Noodler was widely known as deep and 121 00:08:17,120 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: Corn's main gallery. There would be no more primary works 122 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:25,360 Speaker 1: directly from the artist, but secondary works, those that had 123 00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 1: changed hands at least once, were fair game for anyone 124 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: who wanted to buy or sell them, and Nodler could 125 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:34,679 Speaker 1: put buyers and sellers together as well or better than 126 00:08:34,720 --> 00:08:38,199 Speaker 1: anyone else, given its history with the artist. So when 127 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:42,080 Speaker 1: GPA offered to show an too Deepen Corns, the Nodler's 128 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: director jumped the chance. Days after Anne's coup in novemb 129 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: a certain calm had come over the Knoedler Gallery. Larry 130 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:56,320 Speaker 1: Reuben had even agreed to stay on as director until 131 00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,559 Speaker 1: the last day of the year. The old art World 132 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,440 Speaker 1: War horse had recovered his spirits somewhat and shrugged off 133 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: the coup. Perhaps it was time for him to leave 134 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: Niedler after all. Gracefully, he even did Ann Friedman a 135 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 1: favor by agreeing to take a look at the too 136 00:09:14,559 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: Deep and Corn works on paper. Like most of Deep 137 00:09:18,160 --> 00:09:20,960 Speaker 1: and Corn's work since the mid nineteen sixties, these were 138 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:25,560 Speaker 1: geometrical abstractions from his Ocean Park series. When Anne asked 139 00:09:25,600 --> 00:09:30,199 Speaker 1: where they'd come from, Rosalas demurred. Regrettably. She said her 140 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: client wanted to remain anonymous. That was hardly unusual for 141 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:40,360 Speaker 1: works brought in by perfect strangers. Unfortunately, neither of the 142 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: drawings had identifying marks on their verso verso is what 143 00:09:44,240 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 1: dealers call the back of an artwork, no record of 144 00:09:48,240 --> 00:09:51,439 Speaker 1: the works tracing back to the artist's studio. There was 145 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,520 Speaker 1: no trace of later buyers and sellers, no auction markings either. 146 00:09:56,520 --> 00:10:00,640 Speaker 1: In a word, the drawings had no provenance. That was 147 00:10:00,679 --> 00:10:08,720 Speaker 1: a problem. So what is provenance. It's the paper trail 148 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 1: of what we know about an artwork, starting from the 149 00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:13,719 Speaker 1: time it was created. It tells us who owned it, 150 00:10:13,920 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 1: when it was sold, where it was shown, and so forth. 151 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: Had Deep and Corn been alive? The issue of provenance 152 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:25,000 Speaker 1: for these works would have been moot. After all, the 153 00:10:25,120 --> 00:10:28,160 Speaker 1: artist was the best judge of his own work. He 154 00:10:28,200 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: could say in an instant whether these two drawings were 155 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 1: done by his hand or not. When an artist died, 156 00:10:35,280 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: the primary work he left behind in his studio or 157 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:43,040 Speaker 1: home was easy to judge and usually genuine too, so 158 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: it wasn't difficult for the artist's family or executor to 159 00:10:46,320 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 1: authenticate those works and record them for posterity. The challenge 160 00:10:51,480 --> 00:10:55,840 Speaker 1: came with secondary works sold after the artist's death, works 161 00:10:55,960 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 1: bought and sold and bought again, works that sometimes vanished 162 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: and and reappeared. Were they real or not? An artist 163 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:10,200 Speaker 1: like deep and Corn post a special challenge. His Ocean 164 00:11:10,240 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 1: Park works were all beautiful, but also quite similar. Larry Reuben, 165 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: as it turned out, was underwhelmed by the ocean park 166 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: esque drawings, and Friedman showed him quote. I told her 167 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: I did not think they were good, Reuben later told 168 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: Vanity fair, which was to say I thought they were fake. 169 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:35,559 Speaker 1: He said the gallery couldn't or certainly shouldn't sell them. 170 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:39,480 Speaker 1: Not long after, deepn Corn's widow, Phillis, paid a visit 171 00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: to the Noddler with her daughter Gretchen, and Friedman had 172 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 1: called the drawings to their attention, and the family were 173 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:47,679 Speaker 1: worried about them. When Anne laid them out on a 174 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:51,360 Speaker 1: table at the gallery, Gretchen and Phillis stared at those 175 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 1: drawings for a long time. They looked quite good. We really, 176 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 1: we're pretty impressed. It was clearly a beautiful piece. I 177 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:06,559 Speaker 1: am Gretchen deep in corn Grant. My father is Richard 178 00:12:06,600 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: deep and Corny. Despite the exceptional quality of the works, 179 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:15,280 Speaker 1: the family felt they were not authentic. You could see 180 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 1: the hand of the forger in both of them. You 181 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:25,160 Speaker 1: look at someone's work long enough, and my entire life 182 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:31,360 Speaker 1: seventy six years old, so I was alive during my 183 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:37,720 Speaker 1: father's career, and you have a sense of it. Not perfect, 184 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 1: but you do have a pretty good sense. What I 185 00:12:41,720 --> 00:12:45,520 Speaker 1: said to and at the time was that the problem 186 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:49,600 Speaker 1: for me was that they didn't have any soul. They 187 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:53,320 Speaker 1: didn't seem to breathe. I just couldn't relate to it, 188 00:12:53,400 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 1: even though it was clearly a beautiful piece, and reactions 189 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:05,559 Speaker 1: surprised them. She didn't even thank them for calling attention 190 00:13:05,640 --> 00:13:09,559 Speaker 1: to what might be fake Deepen corns. Neither did she 191 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: suggest she would hand them back to their owner, whoever 192 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:16,160 Speaker 1: They might be. The whole question of what the nobler 193 00:13:16,280 --> 00:13:20,760 Speaker 1: might do with them was simply not addressed. Of course, 194 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 1: she didn't say to a freedman, I think they are fake, 195 00:13:25,120 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: because you know, in the art world you cannot call 196 00:13:28,160 --> 00:13:31,240 Speaker 1: something a fake because if you do so, you might 197 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: be sued for defamation of property. So people are very careful. 198 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,240 Speaker 1: J Seli Reggaetel is a reporter currently with the Center 199 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:43,120 Speaker 1: for Investigative Reporting. She pursued the Notler story for several 200 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 1: years and came up with a few scoops, starting with 201 00:13:45,960 --> 00:13:49,959 Speaker 1: the story of Dr Bernard Krueger. They might say this 202 00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:53,240 Speaker 1: doesn't look right, but you don't quite say this is fake. 203 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:56,000 Speaker 1: So it's quite interesting that I talked to both Rush 204 00:13:56,040 --> 00:13:59,560 Speaker 1: and Demnquirn as she was seeing this, this pieces as 205 00:13:59,600 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 1: they were about to be sold, and then I also 206 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:05,439 Speaker 1: talked to Bernard Krueger, who was looking at the pieces 207 00:14:05,480 --> 00:14:10,080 Speaker 1: from the buyer's perspective, and in both instances, you see 208 00:14:10,120 --> 00:14:13,760 Speaker 1: there were several things strange about this. You know, where 209 00:14:13,800 --> 00:14:17,319 Speaker 1: they were coming from, how they looked, how much they 210 00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: were being offered. All of those things adapt to you know, 211 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:28,200 Speaker 1: there's something strange happening here. Here's Francis Beatty again. I 212 00:14:28,240 --> 00:14:31,440 Speaker 1: do remember going to a deep and Corn show of 213 00:14:31,480 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: deep and corn works on paper and someone saying to me, 214 00:14:36,120 --> 00:14:39,720 Speaker 1: you have to be super careful because you want to 215 00:14:39,720 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: make sure that you're not buying one of the things 216 00:14:42,680 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 1: that the family has disavowed. And the idea that you 217 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 1: would show something, let alone sell it, that the family 218 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 1: of the artist has disavowed, is absolutely shocking. I mean, 219 00:15:00,680 --> 00:15:05,480 Speaker 1: you have a responsibility to your client, and if something 220 00:15:05,560 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: has a cloud over it, the cloud is never going 221 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:16,800 Speaker 1: to disperse. Since the drawings were secondary market works, the 222 00:15:16,920 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: family couldn't keep Ann Friedman from doing what she wanted 223 00:15:20,040 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 1: with them, which was, of course, to sell them. As 224 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,960 Speaker 1: Larry Reuben later told Vanity Fair and Freedman could justify 225 00:15:29,120 --> 00:15:32,680 Speaker 1: selling those two drawings because the artist's wife had not 226 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,720 Speaker 1: called them fake, nor had Larry Reuben. I wasn't one 227 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 1: sure they weren't real, Reuben explained later. And you can 228 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: get into a lot of trouble by declaring something as 229 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,960 Speaker 1: fake when you don't have the hard evidence. And since 230 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,000 Speaker 1: I was leaving, I said to Anne, fine, you handle it, 231 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 1: and she did. Despite the doubts expressed by the family 232 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: and Freedman sold the deep and corn drawings to the 233 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:08,960 Speaker 1: perfect buyer. More art fraud in a minute. Hi, I'm 234 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,600 Speaker 1: Joe Piazza, the host of Under the Influence. On season 235 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,240 Speaker 1: two of our podcast, we're exploring what it means to 236 00:16:15,280 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 1: be a woman on social media. We're going into different 237 00:16:18,120 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: pockets of influencing to talk about how Instagram is a 238 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 1: reflection of all the ways that women are mistreated in 239 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,680 Speaker 1: our society. We're going into some of the darkest corners 240 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: of the social media universe and we might just have 241 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: a plan to shut it all that held down. Listen 242 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 1: to season two of Under the Influence with Joe Piazza 243 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 244 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Arden Marine from Shameless 245 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:48,200 Speaker 1: and Stationable, Chelsea Lately and the I Heart Radio podcast 246 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 1: Will You Accept This Rose? And I'm Julianne Robinson and 247 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:55,000 Speaker 1: Emmy and bafta nominated director most recently of Bridgetin. And 248 00:16:55,040 --> 00:16:57,480 Speaker 1: we are the hosts of Lady of the Road, a 249 00:16:57,600 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: funny and inspiring podcast where we have come stations with 250 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 1: influential women about their lives and we get self help advice. 251 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:06,880 Speaker 1: We're always looking to improve ourselves and we figure there's 252 00:17:06,920 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: no better source for learning how to be brave, take 253 00:17:10,080 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: risks and advocate for yourself in life than speaking with motivating, 254 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:16,919 Speaker 1: uplifting women. Some of them we've met throughout our careers 255 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:18,880 Speaker 1: and some of them were just meeting now. We talk 256 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 1: about money, health, relationships, parenthood, running a business, you name it, 257 00:17:23,160 --> 00:17:28,040 Speaker 1: from inspiring women like Joan Jet, Nicole Buyer, Lauren Lobkis Htta, 258 00:17:28,320 --> 00:17:32,399 Speaker 1: Ricky Lynde, Tom Kate mccouchee, Kate Walsh, shondaland producer Betsy 259 00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:36,679 Speaker 1: bears Adua and o Jen Kirkman and more. Listen and 260 00:17:36,800 --> 00:17:39,359 Speaker 1: subscribe to Lady of the Road on the I Heart 261 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: Radio app Apple Podcasts over if you get your podcasts 262 00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:48,600 Speaker 1: from Cavalry Audio, the studio that brought you The Devil 263 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:53,080 Speaker 1: Within and The Shadow Girls, comes a new true crime podcast, 264 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 1: The Pink Moon Murders. The local sheriff believes there may 265 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: be more than one killer. It's been four days since 266 00:18:00,359 --> 00:18:02,879 Speaker 1: those bodies were found and there's no arrest as it 267 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:04,879 Speaker 1: this morning. They were afraid to face it out in 268 00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,480 Speaker 1: that area, what if they come back or whatever. It 269 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 1: scared me to death, Like it scared me, I was 270 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,919 Speaker 1: very very intimidating to live here. Crazy to think you 271 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:15,680 Speaker 1: go to sleep one night, maybe snuggling with your loved one, 272 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:17,879 Speaker 1: and never wake up, or maybe you wake up in 273 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: a struggle for your life, which you lose. Joint host 274 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:24,080 Speaker 1: David Radiman as he explores one fateful night when evil 275 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,920 Speaker 1: descended upon small town, Ohio killed eight members of an 276 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:31,639 Speaker 1: Ohio family in a pre planned execution. The family was targeted, 277 00:18:31,800 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 1: most of them targeted while they were sleeping. The Pink 278 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,639 Speaker 1: Moon Murders is available on February twenty second, and you 279 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: can follow The Pink Moon Murders on the I Heart 280 00:18:39,840 --> 00:18:43,400 Speaker 1: Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. 281 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:48,560 Speaker 1: Not long after the Deep and Corn families disconcerting visit 282 00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:52,680 Speaker 1: to Knoedler, a doctor named Bernard Krueger received a phone 283 00:18:52,720 --> 00:18:57,400 Speaker 1: call he never expected to get. Krueger was a collector, 284 00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:01,680 Speaker 1: perhaps not a great collector, but an eager one, especially 285 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,760 Speaker 1: in regard to Richard deep In Corn's work. He liked 286 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: to think he had an inside track. He was, after all, 287 00:19:09,000 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 1: and Friedman's doctor. He told me he loved Devoncorn's work 288 00:19:13,880 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: for many years, and at the time he was alive 289 00:19:17,359 --> 00:19:20,080 Speaker 1: in the nineties, and even before that, I think he 290 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,280 Speaker 1: started buying the first diven corns in the eighties. He 291 00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,560 Speaker 1: had to go through Knodler because at the time Richard 292 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: Devon Corn was alive and Knodler represented him. And what 293 00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,280 Speaker 1: ben Krueger told me is that every time he wanted 294 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:38,160 Speaker 1: to buy a piece, it was not easy. You would 295 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,600 Speaker 1: think you have money, you want to buy a piece 296 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:42,520 Speaker 1: of art. You walk in and say, I want this, 297 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 1: But that's not how it works in the art world. 298 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:49,240 Speaker 1: You know, there is no like free market, or you know, 299 00:19:49,359 --> 00:19:52,080 Speaker 1: they sell for whoever they want to sell, and they 300 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 1: might give a price to me and a different price 301 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:58,679 Speaker 1: to you. And the way that Bernard described to me 302 00:19:58,880 --> 00:20:03,679 Speaker 1: is that in Freedman quite difficult and quite protective, and 303 00:20:03,880 --> 00:20:06,640 Speaker 1: she would say to him, no, you cannot buy this one. 304 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,360 Speaker 1: If you want, you can buy this other one. He 305 00:20:09,400 --> 00:20:12,160 Speaker 1: said to me, I would need to beg to buy, 306 00:20:12,240 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: and sometimes she would let me buy, and sometimes she wouldn't. 307 00:20:15,880 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: And I asked him why why would she do that? 308 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,920 Speaker 1: And he said, well, that was her way of having 309 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:26,000 Speaker 1: power and having control. Despite having an inside track as 310 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 1: hands doctor Bernard Krueger was having a difficult time purchasing 311 00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 1: a work from the artist he most coveted. Surprisingly, all 312 00:20:34,400 --> 00:20:37,679 Speaker 1: of that would change after Deep and Corn passed away 313 00:20:38,040 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 1: in early and all of a sudden, Bernard Krueger gets 314 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: a call from Knoedler saying, we have the two dippen 315 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,679 Speaker 1: corns for you to see. You know, they just came in. 316 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,119 Speaker 1: I think you would like it. I was already like, 317 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,600 Speaker 1: wait a minute, don't you think that was change? For years, 318 00:20:57,600 --> 00:20:59,920 Speaker 1: you've been begging to buy a dipping corn, all of 319 00:21:00,040 --> 00:21:02,879 Speaker 1: her sudden they're calling you and offer you a dipping corn. 320 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: And he said no. I thought I was great. I 321 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 1: thought I was finally getting a good deal on a 322 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:11,440 Speaker 1: dipping corn because he bought one of them, and that 323 00:21:11,520 --> 00:21:16,120 Speaker 1: was one of the fakes. If I remember the numbers right. 324 00:21:16,400 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: He told me the last depon corn he had bought 325 00:21:18,920 --> 00:21:22,120 Speaker 1: for like a hundred twenty five hundred thirty five thousand, 326 00:21:22,840 --> 00:21:25,480 Speaker 1: and that when he bought for eighty thou dollars. So 327 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: again he was thrilled. He's like, all of a sudden 328 00:21:27,840 --> 00:21:30,880 Speaker 1: had been offered a deep and corn, and it's cheaper 329 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: than the last one I bought. Loadler did well by 330 00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,359 Speaker 1: those two Deep and Corn sales, earning forty five thousand 331 00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: dollars on each. When word of the sale reached the 332 00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: deep and Corn family, they were shocked, As the late 333 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: artist's daughter, Gretchen said, we thought, being the naive people 334 00:21:51,520 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: we were and being honest, we basically thought she would 335 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: simply return them and that would be that. Instead, she 336 00:21:58,920 --> 00:22:03,960 Speaker 1: wrote a letter to my mother and to me that 337 00:22:04,359 --> 00:22:09,359 Speaker 1: we had come to the gallery and authenticated these works, 338 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:14,120 Speaker 1: and therefore she had sold them, and we were very distressed. 339 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 1: I wanted to write to Anne and tell her that 340 00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:22,200 Speaker 1: this was not okay and that we had not authenticated them. 341 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: She can sell whatever she wants, but she can't say 342 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:32,080 Speaker 1: that we authenticated it. And my mother was very shy 343 00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:38,400 Speaker 1: about being in an antagonistic position with anybody, and she 344 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,359 Speaker 1: really didn't want me to write for on behalf of 345 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:49,960 Speaker 1: myself or on behalf of her, and so that was dropped. Later, 346 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,280 Speaker 1: Dr Krueger would say he had sold the works and 347 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,960 Speaker 1: had no idea where they were perhaps, But over the 348 00:22:57,000 --> 00:23:00,800 Speaker 1: next fifteen years the Deepened Corns would routinely here of 349 00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,840 Speaker 1: fake Deepen Corn works on paper popping up in the market. 350 00:23:06,160 --> 00:23:09,200 Speaker 1: Each new appearance meant that some new owner was trying 351 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: to unload his Deepen Corns, either with or without the 352 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:18,320 Speaker 1: knowledge that they were fake. When the works once again vanished, 353 00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:22,360 Speaker 1: the implication was just as clear. Some new owner had 354 00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 1: been duped or worse, set out to con his own 355 00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:32,800 Speaker 1: next prospective buyer. In the years to come, stories like 356 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,440 Speaker 1: that would find their way to the Deepen Corn Foundation 357 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:40,320 Speaker 1: on a regular basis. Eventually, the family counted some two 358 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 1: d and fifty deep in Corn images around the world, 359 00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:48,640 Speaker 1: submitted for authentication or just out of curiosity. They ranged 360 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,720 Speaker 1: from the occasional top drawer forgery to an art student's 361 00:23:52,760 --> 00:23:56,480 Speaker 1: homage for class credit left in a garage to be 362 00:23:56,560 --> 00:24:03,840 Speaker 1: celebrated briefly as the real McCoy. Times were tough in 363 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: the art market, and few galleries were feeling it as 364 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:10,360 Speaker 1: much as Noler, which had little to live on after 365 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:16,280 Speaker 1: Larry Reuben's departure other than its reputation and venerability. I mean, 366 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:20,919 Speaker 1: she wasn't making much money at I mean, business wasn't good, 367 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:30,400 Speaker 1: and so she needs something was needed, something really special need. Still, 368 00:24:30,560 --> 00:24:34,440 Speaker 1: Anne seemed to harbor lingering concerns about those works. Perhaps 369 00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,440 Speaker 1: she was eager to prove their authenticity to herself and 370 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,399 Speaker 1: to pave the way for more paintings from Glafira Rosales. 371 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,119 Speaker 1: Surely Gafia could share with Anna telling detail or two 372 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,320 Speaker 1: details to assure her the works had some shred of provenance. 373 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: Gently but firmly declined to say anything about where the 374 00:24:56,359 --> 00:25:00,960 Speaker 1: deep and corn drawings had come from. She would only 375 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 1: say she was representing a man she called mister X Junior, 376 00:25:05,440 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 1: whose parents had passed on to their son more paintings 377 00:25:08,800 --> 00:25:11,880 Speaker 1: by some of the best known artists of the post 378 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: war period. Soon enough, Anne was calling him mister ex 379 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,119 Speaker 1: Junior too, and referring to his parents as mister and 380 00:25:20,200 --> 00:25:24,560 Speaker 1: missus X. It sounded a bit silly, but maybe a 381 00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: van played ball Glyphia might introduce Anne to mister ex Junior. 382 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 1: Glyphia did say that mister ex Junior had more works 383 00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:37,440 Speaker 1: to sell if they could be placed discreetly. These were 384 00:25:37,480 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 1: works that had been long stored by mister X hermetically sealed. 385 00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:46,120 Speaker 1: Even Glyphia had said the paintings had been in storage 386 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,480 Speaker 1: for so long that critics and collectors would be thrilled 387 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:55,160 Speaker 1: to see these lost masterpieces finally unwrapped. I have never 388 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: and I actually don't have any colleagues who I know 389 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:06,640 Speaker 1: who have regularly managed to obtain from a private person 390 00:26:07,240 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: a picture for let's say two hundred thousand dollars that 391 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:15,960 Speaker 1: then they could sell for eight hundred thousand dollars. I mean, 392 00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 1: it just simply doesn't happen. If somebody came to me 393 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: and said, I want to sell you this Clifford Still, 394 00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:35,000 Speaker 1: and I know that the Clifford still's fair market price 395 00:26:35,200 --> 00:26:39,800 Speaker 1: would be a million, and they say to me, well, 396 00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,600 Speaker 1: I'm going to sell it to you for two hundred thousand, 397 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 1: I would think immediately that it was hot. What other conclusion. 398 00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,680 Speaker 1: It's the same in any business. I think if you're 399 00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: a diamond merchant, somebody comes to you with the diamond 400 00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: and they're selling it to you for twenty percent of 401 00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 1: its real value, you would assume that there was something 402 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:11,000 Speaker 1: wrong with it. You say no, thank you. And if 403 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 1: you bought a painting by mistake, letting your passions get 404 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: the better of you, what would you do when you 405 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 1: came to your senses. These things once a while happened 406 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:24,000 Speaker 1: to dealers. You just you make a mistake, But the 407 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: minute you do, you recognize it, you give the money back. 408 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 1: You know you you take it, and you learn from it. 409 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: Otherwise you lose your reputation completely. And utterly. So that's 410 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:43,600 Speaker 1: one of the really key things. It wasn't long before 411 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: Fa Rosalez was back in the Knodler, this time with 412 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:52,520 Speaker 1: a painting by abstract expressionist Mark Rothko under her arm. 413 00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:55,680 Speaker 1: It was a beautiful work, as Anne described it later, 414 00:27:56,240 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 1: with dark orbs against a pale, pink peach backdrop, and 415 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,400 Speaker 1: like the deepen Coorns, it had no provenance other than 416 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,119 Speaker 1: the link to Mr and Mrs X. I think that 417 00:28:08,680 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: they were the consortium, not just Cliff hear right. They 418 00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: created paintings that were actually quite smart because they were 419 00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:23,320 Speaker 1: very highly valued. I'm Maria Condakova. I'm an author, journalist 420 00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:26,760 Speaker 1: and psychologist, the author most recently of the Biggest Bluff 421 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 1: and also most relevant to this, the Confidence Game. I mean, 422 00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:35,400 Speaker 1: let's be honest, Abstract expressionism is not necessarily the most 423 00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 1: technically advanced paintings. Now. I'm not saying that Rothco is 424 00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: non technically advanced. He is. He could paint anything. But 425 00:28:43,720 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: for someone who's not, you know, incredibly technically advanced painters, 426 00:28:48,600 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: probably easier to create a Rothco than a rum Round. 427 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 1: One thing that I think you said in your book, 428 00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 1: it's very important for the con artist not to move 429 00:28:58,400 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: too quickly. That was the whole part of the what 430 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: I think you call the long con. Something that con artists, 431 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:10,000 Speaker 1: the good con artists have in abundance is patients. Some 432 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: cons take decades to play out all the way. So 433 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: you really need to be able to see the long 434 00:29:15,920 --> 00:29:18,440 Speaker 1: game and not just be in it for, you know, 435 00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,760 Speaker 1: the immediate profit. You need to be able to see 436 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:24,840 Speaker 1: how does this play out over time. And one thing 437 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,520 Speaker 1: that you have to hand to life Era is, you know, 438 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: she didn't just do her homework on and she did 439 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: her homework on the art mark and how that world 440 00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: works and what people expect. If you walk in right 441 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: away with twenty roth Goes and a few Pollocks in there, 442 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 1: someone's gonna say, Okay, hold on one second, we're going 443 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 1: to do some very heavy duty analysis on this, but 444 00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:52,840 Speaker 1: one at a time. Lost treasures, you know, we really 445 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:55,880 Speaker 1: don't want to part with them, but we're we're selling 446 00:29:55,920 --> 00:30:00,000 Speaker 1: them piecemeal. That's much more compelling and invites less screw. 447 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:03,520 Speaker 1: In the end, she's also building the market for herself 448 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: because now even though there was originally no provenance, now 449 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: a lot of these pieces are in collections and some 450 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 1: end up making it two shows and to museums, and 451 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: so that creates the provenance that this is the collection 452 00:30:21,120 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: of Mr X. And some of these have already been 453 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:27,880 Speaker 1: validated by some of the leading galleries and museums and 454 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:33,920 Speaker 1: collectors in the world. I think that if someone brought 455 00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: me a Rothko who I didn't know and who had 456 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:43,520 Speaker 1: no kind of bona fides in the art world, I 457 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: would be very suspicious. Where did this person get it? 458 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:52,080 Speaker 1: And it was stolen? I mean, you don't just go 459 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:59,600 Speaker 1: wandering around with Rothko's right and did show the painting 460 00:30:59,640 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 1: too Ristopher Rothco, son of the late artist, who professed 461 00:31:03,440 --> 00:31:07,680 Speaker 1: to find it beautiful. That was enough for Anne. She 462 00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: bought the painting for one thousand dollars from Rosalis. She 463 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 1: sold it to the Michelle Rosenfeld Gallery for three thousand 464 00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 1: dollars for a gross profit of one hundred nine Later, 465 00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:25,200 Speaker 1: when she heard about the sale, Francis Beatty found Anne's 466 00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: strategy underwhelming. If she showed it to Christopher Rothco, I 467 00:31:32,200 --> 00:31:36,200 Speaker 1: would say that would be a good first step, But 468 00:31:36,320 --> 00:31:39,280 Speaker 1: that doesn't tell you where it came from. That doesn't 469 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 1: tell you that the person has good title to it. 470 00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: You know that you would have to investigate a few 471 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,040 Speaker 1: people knew that Nodler was starting to deal in works 472 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:55,080 Speaker 1: without any provenance. The circle had been confined to a 473 00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 1: and any confederates she might have, as well as the 474 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,480 Speaker 1: staffers at the gallery, who could gossip but hardly take 475 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 1: on their imperious boss. Leslie Feely recalled seeing one of 476 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:09,920 Speaker 1: the Rothcoes brought in by Fra. I just walked in 477 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:15,480 Speaker 1: and saw this great red painting, presuming to be a Rothco. 478 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 1: I just couldn't even look at it because it was 479 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:27,160 Speaker 1: so garish and so not by Rothco. And they were 480 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,840 Speaker 1: selling it for at the time million dollars. It was 481 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: not that large, and it was clearly a fake. None 482 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: of these paintings had any provenance, at least of the 483 00:32:40,160 --> 00:32:43,280 Speaker 1: kind that the art market expected, nor were any in 484 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: the catalog resume of Mark Rothko or the soon to 485 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 1: be completed catalog resume for the late Richard Diebencorn. How 486 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:56,640 Speaker 1: could it an organization not check the provenance. That's what 487 00:32:56,640 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: you're supposed to do for an art fairies, was to 488 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:02,959 Speaker 1: check the provenance and any paint particularly a Rothco. And 489 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:06,400 Speaker 1: there it was. Nobody took it out, just sitting there, 490 00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: but just to play devil's advocate here. Many paintings must 491 00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,560 Speaker 1: meet the market with no provenance because the artist has 492 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 1: just finished them, or or maybe he put them aside 493 00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: and got bored with his painting. In the old days, 494 00:33:21,440 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 1: you had to ask Jeane thaw On Francis O'Connor to 495 00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:29,880 Speaker 1: write an attestation. I mean recently, there are lots of 496 00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:35,080 Speaker 1: states that don't want to write authenticity, which is very problematic. 497 00:33:35,640 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 1: And so what you do is you get people in, 498 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,080 Speaker 1: you sit them down and you say, I'm worried about this. 499 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,240 Speaker 1: You know, this is a picture which has been offered 500 00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:51,200 Speaker 1: to me. I think it looks beautiful, but it has 501 00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: I have no provenance on it, and I really need 502 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:59,600 Speaker 1: to know what you think about it. You ask a 503 00:33:59,640 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 1: couple of people, and you do your due diligence because 504 00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:09,399 Speaker 1: you're on the line for it. One of the most 505 00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,759 Speaker 1: important aspects of provenance is in an artwork by a 506 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:17,800 Speaker 1: great established artist be readily found, and that artists catalog resume. 507 00:34:19,640 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 1: A catalog resume is done by scholars or a family 508 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 1: in which they try to write down every single picture 509 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:35,920 Speaker 1: that to date has been attributed to this artist and 510 00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:40,319 Speaker 1: that they think is legitimate. And typical catalog resume is 511 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 1: like the Pollock catalog resume. It says where the work 512 00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:50,239 Speaker 1: comes from in scrupulous detail. Sometimes it says whether it's 513 00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,040 Speaker 1: been repainted, whether it was in a fire. I mean, 514 00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: you try to get as much information as you possibly can. 515 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:04,200 Speaker 1: You try to docum meant every single picture by that artist. 516 00:35:04,880 --> 00:35:08,680 Speaker 1: You also have to be sure that you're passing something 517 00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:18,600 Speaker 1: that's legitimate or is considered legitimate by the authorities. Of course, 518 00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,799 Speaker 1: it does sometimes happen that a painting lacks any provenance. 519 00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 1: It's rare, but it happens. So what do you do? 520 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:28,400 Speaker 1: Start calling in the experts and hopefully get them to 521 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 1: look at the actual work, Invite them to a gallery opening, 522 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,880 Speaker 1: steer them to your newly acquired Barnett Newman A Rothko. 523 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 1: Is there anything wrong with doing what she did? As 524 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,840 Speaker 1: far as that goes, One could argue that Anne and 525 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:43,120 Speaker 1: asking the Deep and Corn family to look at those 526 00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:47,320 Speaker 1: two works on paper was acting quite properly. No, there's 527 00:35:47,360 --> 00:35:49,640 Speaker 1: nothing wrong with doing that. I mean, you want to 528 00:35:49,760 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: know what distinguished scholars and what people who are regarded 529 00:35:57,239 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 1: to have what we call the art business a good eye, 530 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:04,560 Speaker 1: in other words, they have you have some reason to 531 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:12,239 Speaker 1: believe that you would risk your reputation on their say so. 532 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,120 Speaker 1: I guess one important nuance of this is that if 533 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,920 Speaker 1: you want to get that expert's opinion, you are upfront 534 00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:25,960 Speaker 1: about asking him, rather than sort of inveigling him to 535 00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: come into your office after hours while everyone's downstairs having 536 00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 1: a glass of wine, and you show this picture and 537 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: the expert says, oh, that's a nice picture, how beautiful. 538 00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:42,640 Speaker 1: That is not the same thing as authentication, which is 539 00:36:42,680 --> 00:36:45,160 Speaker 1: sort of the ultimate stamp of approval. This is just 540 00:36:45,800 --> 00:36:50,480 Speaker 1: an expert, perhaps caught a bit away from office hours 541 00:36:50,520 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 1: and saying that looks like a nice painting. It's not proof. 542 00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: Could there ever be a situation where you've got enough 543 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,319 Speaker 1: signatures from experts that people would say, yes, that's real. 544 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:04,080 Speaker 1: I mean, now we all know you have it forensically tested. 545 00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,000 Speaker 1: I mean, if you have such a picture that has 546 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:11,480 Speaker 1: no provenance and you are very suspicious about you get 547 00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:16,440 Speaker 1: it on consignment from whoever it is, and you have 548 00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 1: it tested, you have to get a complete consensus. You 549 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:26,080 Speaker 1: have to have every single person who could question such 550 00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:28,880 Speaker 1: a thing in line, And then of course you have 551 00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:32,399 Speaker 1: the whole issue. Can you pass good title to this picture? 552 00:37:32,400 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: Which is I think just as problematic and far more frightening. 553 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 1: You are passing good title and guaranteeing the authenticity and 554 00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 1: the title. That's what the uniform code says you are 555 00:37:53,360 --> 00:38:02,840 Speaker 1: doing if you write an invoice. The staffers learned to 556 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:07,640 Speaker 1: keep their distance when Rosalie's name was mentioned whenever something 557 00:38:07,640 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 1: about the Rosales works was discussed. One stafford said that 558 00:38:11,520 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 1: was a closed door meeting for Anne. That was unusual. 559 00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:20,600 Speaker 1: At all. Other times the door to Anne's second floor 560 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,960 Speaker 1: office was open. Sign new house would step over a 561 00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 1: rope and come on in. A staffer recalls of the 562 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,320 Speaker 1: publishing mogul, so the door was only closed for certain 563 00:38:31,440 --> 00:38:36,880 Speaker 1: sensitive meetings. It was around this time that Anne and 564 00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,840 Speaker 1: Glapia held a staff meeting to discuss how many paintings 565 00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 1: remained in the mysterious collection. Rosales identified approximately eight works 566 00:38:44,840 --> 00:38:50,399 Speaker 1: that were still available. There is another still, a Gottlieb too, 567 00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:54,440 Speaker 1: decoon Ngs, a motherwell, a Newman one or two Calledler's. 568 00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 1: That's attorney Emily Rice Baum. Over a decade later, at trial, 569 00:38:59,440 --> 00:39:04,240 Speaker 1: attorneys Gregory Claric, Aaron Crowle, and Emily would present evidence 570 00:39:04,280 --> 00:39:07,719 Speaker 1: of handwritten notes of this infamous meeting. The lawyers noted 571 00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:12,480 Speaker 1: something peculiar about cafe as purported inventory, and then Anne 572 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,560 Speaker 1: asks is there a Pollock? And lo and behold it 573 00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,359 Speaker 1: all says I'll go check, yeah, let me check. She 574 00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:22,360 Speaker 1: was not on her list. You would think if she 575 00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:25,560 Speaker 1: had a Jackson Pollock, she would come in and say 576 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:28,200 Speaker 1: she had a Jackson Pollock. And then it's, you know, 577 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,799 Speaker 1: two years later, having gone to none, she suddenly has five. 578 00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 1: Did someone did discover a missing Pollock in their attic? 579 00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:41,879 Speaker 1: Once every decade or so, does something like that pop up? 580 00:39:41,880 --> 00:39:44,319 Speaker 1: A rothco that roughgo traded with his dentist for some 581 00:39:44,440 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 1: dental work. Does that pop up? Sure, you know there's 582 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:51,719 Speaker 1: one here and there's one there, But are there three? 583 00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: Are there five from the same source? Are there eight? 584 00:39:55,200 --> 00:39:59,879 Speaker 1: Are there twelve? Or their twenty? Or there forty one? 585 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:04,680 Speaker 1: Early Never, despite her initial estimate of having eight paintings 586 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,120 Speaker 1: in the collection, Gafia would manage to deliver over thirty 587 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: more works two Noodler, including five supposed Jackson Pollock's, surprisingly, 588 00:40:14,719 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 1: and treated Kndler's own artists just as harshly as she 589 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:23,840 Speaker 1: treated the galleries assistance, and just trashed her own artists, 590 00:40:24,360 --> 00:40:28,279 Speaker 1: every single one of them. Knodler artist Donald Sulton later 591 00:40:28,320 --> 00:40:32,320 Speaker 1: said she would never answer phone calls. She was completely 592 00:40:32,360 --> 00:40:35,640 Speaker 1: disinterested in the artist she had. She kind of ignored 593 00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,759 Speaker 1: everyone who was there. All her dealings were secretive, Sultan said. 594 00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 1: According to Sultan, and was out of her depth. After 595 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:48,200 Speaker 1: Larry Ruben's departure, Sultan said it was as if the 596 00:40:48,239 --> 00:40:52,880 Speaker 1: director of the Metropolitan Museum of Art was like Philippe Demontebello, 597 00:40:53,040 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 1: deciding that he's going to turn the thing over to 598 00:40:55,160 --> 00:41:00,200 Speaker 1: the secretary. According to one staffer who worked close lee 599 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:03,400 Speaker 1: with her, Anne was not above dramatizing a story to 600 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:07,720 Speaker 1: sell a painting. There was this painting by Helen Frankenthaler. 601 00:41:08,160 --> 00:41:10,120 Speaker 1: We had hung onto it for a couple of years, 602 00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:14,000 Speaker 1: recalls a staffer. A museum director came into Anne's office 603 00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:18,000 Speaker 1: and had the painting out, and the museum director said, 604 00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:20,960 Speaker 1: where did that come from. The staffer went on to 605 00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,480 Speaker 1: say there had been a woman killed in a hit 606 00:41:23,560 --> 00:41:26,480 Speaker 1: and run. This was in the news. She had been 607 00:41:26,520 --> 00:41:29,600 Speaker 1: an art collector and said, I can't really tell you, 608 00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:31,879 Speaker 1: but there was a recent tragedy you might have read 609 00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,279 Speaker 1: about in the news, very sad story. The staffer has said. 610 00:41:35,320 --> 00:41:38,040 Speaker 1: In fact, we had bought the painting at auction in 611 00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:42,440 Speaker 1: or whatever. An art net search would have shown it 612 00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:46,279 Speaker 1: hadn't come from this woman's collection, but Anne just lied 613 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,680 Speaker 1: to this director why we probably got it on the 614 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:54,440 Speaker 1: cheap and Anne was marking it up. On another occasion, 615 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 1: Anne took in a double paneled Milton Avery painting, which 616 00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:00,399 Speaker 1: was to say that there was a painting on each 617 00:42:00,440 --> 00:42:04,720 Speaker 1: side of the wood, instead of showing it that way 618 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:08,440 Speaker 1: to the aviaries and reportedly how to conservator split the 619 00:42:08,480 --> 00:42:11,800 Speaker 1: painting down the middle and get two salable works instead 620 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,440 Speaker 1: of one, a considerably greater profit to her and the gallery. 621 00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:18,839 Speaker 1: I asked Francis if this was typical in any way 622 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:23,359 Speaker 1: for a gallery director. Never in a million years. I mean, 623 00:42:26,239 --> 00:42:30,440 Speaker 1: I you know, you hear these stories about people doing 624 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:35,359 Speaker 1: them in the kind of olden days, but no one 625 00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:41,280 Speaker 1: would imagine doing that in my era. It's a kind 626 00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:47,560 Speaker 1: of vandalization of an object that you certainly can't do 627 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:54,880 Speaker 1: without enormous thought, and I would think consultation with lots 628 00:42:54,920 --> 00:43:07,560 Speaker 1: of other people. We'll be right back on the latest 629 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:10,800 Speaker 1: season of the Next Question with Katie Couric podcast, Katie 630 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:15,880 Speaker 1: dives into Well Katie Here. Exclusive podcast only conversations between 631 00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 1: Katie and the people who made her memoir Going There Possible. 632 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:22,360 Speaker 1: We spent a lot of time together around a dining 633 00:43:22,440 --> 00:43:25,440 Speaker 1: room table here and in the city, and you know 634 00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:29,959 Speaker 1: it was a very intense experience. All episodes of Next 635 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:32,840 Speaker 1: Question with Katie Couric are available now. Listen on the 636 00:43:32,880 --> 00:43:35,680 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you get 637 00:43:35,680 --> 00:43:39,360 Speaker 1: your podcasts. What's Up guys on a shoal and I 638 00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:41,040 Speaker 1: am Troy Millions and we are the host of the 639 00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:44,480 Speaker 1: Ernia Leisure podcast where we break down business models and 640 00:43:44,560 --> 00:43:47,239 Speaker 1: examine the latest trans and finance. We hold court and 641 00:43:47,280 --> 00:43:49,560 Speaker 1: have exclusive interviews with some of the biggest names of business, 642 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:52,680 Speaker 1: sport and entertainment, from DJ Khaled to Mark Cuban, Rick 643 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,759 Speaker 1: Ross and Shaquill O'Neil. I mean, our alumni list is expansive. 644 00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:58,400 Speaker 1: Listen in as our guests reveal a business models, hardships, 645 00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:00,640 Speaker 1: of triumphs and their respective fields. The knowledge is in 646 00:44:00,680 --> 00:44:03,560 Speaker 1: death and the questions are always delivered from your standpoint. 647 00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:05,440 Speaker 1: We want to know what you want to know. We 648 00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:08,600 Speaker 1: talked to the legends of business, sports and entertainment about 649 00:44:08,640 --> 00:44:11,120 Speaker 1: how they got their start and most importantly, how they 650 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,880 Speaker 1: make their money. Earnie Alisia is a college business class 651 00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:15,680 Speaker 1: mixed with pop culture. I want to learn about the 652 00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:18,520 Speaker 1: real estate game, unclears, how the stock market works. We 653 00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:20,960 Speaker 1: got you interested in starting a trucking company or a 654 00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:23,880 Speaker 1: vendor machine business. Not really sure about how taxes or 655 00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,560 Speaker 1: credit work. We got it all covered. The Earnie Leision 656 00:44:26,600 --> 00:44:29,520 Speaker 1: podcast is available now. Listen to Ernie a Leisure on 657 00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:33,560 Speaker 1: the Black Effect podcast Network. I heart radio, app, Apple podcasts, 658 00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:41,640 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey there, I'm Scott Rank, 659 00:44:41,719 --> 00:44:44,640 Speaker 1: host of the podcast History Unplugged. And if you're dreaming 660 00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,279 Speaker 1: of being a full time podcaster someday, you and I 661 00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:49,680 Speaker 1: have a lot in common. I used to teach history 662 00:44:49,719 --> 00:44:52,480 Speaker 1: for a living, which was great, but I wanted something 663 00:44:52,520 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 1: more and maybe you know what I mean. So I 664 00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:57,800 Speaker 1: gave podcasting a try, and I did it with Spreaker. 665 00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:00,479 Speaker 1: From my heart. I could explain how it in about 666 00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,080 Speaker 1: ninety seconds. But all you really need to know now 667 00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:05,840 Speaker 1: is that, in my experience, the ad revenue with Spreaker 668 00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:07,960 Speaker 1: has been three to four times higher than it has 669 00:45:08,000 --> 00:45:10,600 Speaker 1: been with any other host I've worked with. Now I 670 00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 1: get to do what I'm passionate about, teach history, but 671 00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,239 Speaker 1: with more freedom and less stress, while still earning a 672 00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,759 Speaker 1: respectable salary from just getting started and doing the very 673 00:45:19,800 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 1: basic stuff to taking your podcast in whatever direction you 674 00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:25,760 Speaker 1: want to take it. Speaker has all sorts of great tools. 675 00:45:26,239 --> 00:45:27,680 Speaker 1: So if you want to turn your passion into a 676 00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:30,960 Speaker 1: podcast and give this a try, visit speaker dot com. 677 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,319 Speaker 1: That's sp r e a k e er dot com. 678 00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,279 Speaker 1: Get paid to talk about the things you love with 679 00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:43,880 Speaker 1: spreaker from my heart Sometimes and seemed drawn by the 680 00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:50,759 Speaker 1: sheer challenge of a newly arrived work. Someone might come 681 00:45:50,760 --> 00:45:54,360 Speaker 1: off the street with a calder and a story recalls 682 00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:57,880 Speaker 1: one staffer, it was my father's and he passed away. 683 00:45:58,200 --> 00:46:01,440 Speaker 1: I'm trying to sell it. In Evitably, the owner didn't 684 00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,120 Speaker 1: want to wait long enough to put the calder up 685 00:46:04,120 --> 00:46:08,680 Speaker 1: for auction. The provenance sounded sketchy, but Anne went upstairs 686 00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:11,839 Speaker 1: where the finances were done, and ended up buying it 687 00:46:11,880 --> 00:46:16,279 Speaker 1: for cash. The staffers said, I was thinking, either there's 688 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,480 Speaker 1: something wrong or you're taking this painting and will sell 689 00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:22,120 Speaker 1: it for two or three times the amount. I was 690 00:46:22,160 --> 00:46:25,719 Speaker 1: seeing this for the first time. It was an indication 691 00:46:25,880 --> 00:46:29,879 Speaker 1: to me. Over the next year or two, other deep 692 00:46:29,920 --> 00:46:33,880 Speaker 1: in corn works on paper came in from GlyP Era Rosales. 693 00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:38,040 Speaker 1: Like the first ones, they were ocean park abstracts, but 694 00:46:38,080 --> 00:46:42,040 Speaker 1: they were different in one sense. According to Rosalee, they 695 00:46:42,080 --> 00:46:46,480 Speaker 1: came from the the Honda Gallery in Madrid, indicated by 696 00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:49,600 Speaker 1: the seemingly well worn label on the back of each one. 697 00:46:50,680 --> 00:46:53,560 Speaker 1: The Deep in Corn families doubts about those first two 698 00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:57,880 Speaker 1: drawings seemed to have worried Anne Friedman to She had 699 00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:01,480 Speaker 1: written a letter to Rosalie asking for at least some 700 00:47:01,600 --> 00:47:06,040 Speaker 1: provenance on the newly surfaced the Honda Gallery ocean parks. 701 00:47:07,000 --> 00:47:12,400 Speaker 1: Leslie Feeley recalls and searches for provenance. She would be 702 00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:14,520 Speaker 1: in touch with people who used to work at the 703 00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:18,080 Speaker 1: National Gallery, like a Carmen. I mean, she tried to 704 00:47:18,080 --> 00:47:22,239 Speaker 1: find names that would fool people, and she lied and 705 00:47:22,320 --> 00:47:28,920 Speaker 1: lied and made up these fake provenances. I believe from 706 00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:32,279 Speaker 1: the beginning she knew these were fakes. They had no provenances. 707 00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:38,720 Speaker 1: She made up provenances every day. The Honda Gallery works 708 00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,760 Speaker 1: troubled the deep and Corn family as well. We began 709 00:47:42,880 --> 00:47:46,160 Speaker 1: looking up the Handy Gallery and it all seemed very 710 00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,680 Speaker 1: strange because all the work that they had handled. You 711 00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:53,280 Speaker 1: can't talk to anybody, they're all dead. But the works 712 00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:57,239 Speaker 1: that they did handle when they were in existence, were very, 713 00:47:57,360 --> 00:48:00,760 Speaker 1: very different from the work that my father did, things 714 00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:06,120 Speaker 1: like Picasso and some of the earlier abstract people. I 715 00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:14,640 Speaker 1: just remember thinking, Wow, that just seems odd. Apparently Rosales 716 00:48:14,680 --> 00:48:17,520 Speaker 1: had made some calls and came up with provenance for 717 00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:21,279 Speaker 1: the Jande Gallery. Deepen corns. The key figure was a 718 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:28,840 Speaker 1: Spanish restaurant owner named Caesario Fontanella. Supposedly, he told Rosalee 719 00:48:28,960 --> 00:48:31,600 Speaker 1: that he had owned a restaurant called Taverna says Are 720 00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:35,799 Speaker 1: on Fleming Street near Madrid's Castellana Plaza from the late 721 00:48:35,880 --> 00:48:41,440 Speaker 1: nineteen seventies until the Taverna Caesar had been a hangout 722 00:48:41,480 --> 00:48:45,279 Speaker 1: for artists. Everyone from Francis Bacon to Andy Warhol had 723 00:48:45,280 --> 00:48:50,080 Speaker 1: frequented the place, or so Rosalees heard. Nearby was the 724 00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:54,760 Speaker 1: Janda Gallery, said Suzario Fontanella, where many of those artists 725 00:48:54,800 --> 00:48:58,640 Speaker 1: had shown. Fernando Vijande would often bring them over to 726 00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:01,920 Speaker 1: the Taverna. Cesar deep and Corn had been one of 727 00:49:01,920 --> 00:49:05,799 Speaker 1: the regulars, and in a time honored artistic tradition, had 728 00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:08,600 Speaker 1: often paid off his bar bills with art or traded 729 00:49:08,680 --> 00:49:12,320 Speaker 1: his own art. The nimble says our Fontenelle had procured 730 00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:15,239 Speaker 1: his depon corns that way, and kept them for all 731 00:49:15,280 --> 00:49:18,640 Speaker 1: those intervening years, he said, and was selling them only 732 00:49:18,719 --> 00:49:22,680 Speaker 1: now after deepon Corne's death. There was a fine story, 733 00:49:22,880 --> 00:49:27,520 Speaker 1: except that Rodrigo Vijande, the late gallery owner's son, found 734 00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:32,400 Speaker 1: it preposterous. First, he had never heard of the tavernas Caesar. 735 00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:35,719 Speaker 1: He would have known it well if his father patronized it. 736 00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:39,080 Speaker 1: He would have known which artists hung out there, too, 737 00:49:39,440 --> 00:49:42,720 Speaker 1: because Rodrigo had helped run the gallery with his father 738 00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,759 Speaker 1: and knew of its artists upon his father's death. In 739 00:49:49,640 --> 00:49:53,719 Speaker 1: the most off key detail of Caesar Fontenelle's story was 740 00:49:53,760 --> 00:49:58,560 Speaker 1: the Taverna's address. Even if it had existed, it wouldn't 741 00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,760 Speaker 1: have been a hangout for arti from the the Honda Gallery, 742 00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:05,759 Speaker 1: because it's supposed address on Fleming Street was two or 743 00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:10,040 Speaker 1: three miles from the gallery. Both galleries that my father 744 00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,280 Speaker 1: owned in Madrid were right where he lived, in front 745 00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,600 Speaker 1: of his house on Nunez de Balboa in the center 746 00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:22,359 Speaker 1: of Madrid, Rodrico explained. Moreover, of the Hondai didn't drive, that, 747 00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:26,200 Speaker 1: declared his son Rodrigo, was why he lived some fifty 748 00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:31,000 Speaker 1: yards from his galleries. At first and Freedman may have 749 00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:34,880 Speaker 1: believed the the Honda Gallery story. Certainly she wanted to 750 00:50:34,920 --> 00:50:39,200 Speaker 1: believe it. If it was true, it might validate the 751 00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:43,560 Speaker 1: half dozen other such ocean parks that GPA Rosalis was 752 00:50:43,600 --> 00:50:47,040 Speaker 1: bringing in one by one. With their now distinctive the 753 00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:51,919 Speaker 1: Honde Gallery labels had cast a glow of authenticity over 754 00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:57,120 Speaker 1: all the ocean park Deepened Corns and over GLPA Rosalee herself. 755 00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:03,040 Speaker 1: But a label isn't proven. It's just a label. If 756 00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,400 Speaker 1: the label had been part of a paper trail of ownership, 757 00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:10,640 Speaker 1: the result would have been picture perfect provenance. In this case, 758 00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:14,919 Speaker 1: the trail petered out as soon as it began. What 759 00:51:14,960 --> 00:51:17,600 Speaker 1: was it fair to say that every time you saw 760 00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,960 Speaker 1: a deep in corn ocean park that had any label 761 00:51:22,000 --> 00:51:28,600 Speaker 1: on back, that it was almost certainly fake. I think 762 00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:33,719 Speaker 1: one could say that, Yes, she swears that she didn't know, 763 00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:40,440 Speaker 1: which seems hard to believe. That's noodler artist Michael David Again, 764 00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:45,760 Speaker 1: should she have known? Yeah? And is this business fraud 765 00:51:46,360 --> 00:51:55,480 Speaker 1: with people cutting corners with fraud? Absolutely? And Friedman had 766 00:51:55,520 --> 00:51:59,040 Speaker 1: her Deepen Corns with the Honda Gallery labels, but she 767 00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:02,600 Speaker 1: pressed rosal Us for more proof of the works provenance. 768 00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,000 Speaker 1: If she wasn't going to uncover an actual paper trail. 769 00:52:07,360 --> 00:52:10,480 Speaker 1: She could do the next best thing. She could find 770 00:52:10,560 --> 00:52:13,960 Speaker 1: experts on the painters whose works were coming in from 771 00:52:14,040 --> 00:52:18,040 Speaker 1: Mr X Jr. Already she had done that with Chris Rothko, 772 00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:24,280 Speaker 1: the late artist's son. Since then another Rothko expert, David Antham, 773 00:52:24,280 --> 00:52:28,200 Speaker 1: had praised it too, and would do her part seeking 774 00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:31,640 Speaker 1: out more art world academics who might inspect the paintings 775 00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:34,520 Speaker 1: as they came in and find that they were true. 776 00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:39,120 Speaker 1: But couldn't Lafia do something to fill in the story 777 00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:42,239 Speaker 1: of the ex family and arranged for Anne to meet 778 00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:47,479 Speaker 1: Mr x Jr. At last, not yet, Rosavas deflected soon, 779 00:52:47,640 --> 00:52:53,520 Speaker 1: she felt soon. But then came the most astonishing accident, 780 00:52:54,000 --> 00:52:57,200 Speaker 1: one that seemed to prove beyond doubt that Mr X 781 00:52:57,239 --> 00:53:04,320 Speaker 1: and his paintings were real after all. In their conversations 782 00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,680 Speaker 1: and Anne often talked about art of the post war period, 783 00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:12,920 Speaker 1: Lathira knew a lot enough to impress Anne, and the 784 00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:17,120 Speaker 1: two women share their favorite artists, one of whom was Clifford. 785 00:53:17,120 --> 00:53:22,320 Speaker 1: Still in most cases, a would go through Mr X's 786 00:53:22,360 --> 00:53:26,120 Speaker 1: collection searching for a painting by one of the artists 787 00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:30,960 Speaker 1: and had spoken of with great admiration. Miraculously, Glafira would 788 00:53:30,960 --> 00:53:38,720 Speaker 1: find onefa Rosales told investigators that the galleries would often 789 00:53:38,920 --> 00:53:43,959 Speaker 1: ask her for specific things without asking many questions where 790 00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:46,560 Speaker 1: it came from. So think about this. You are a 791 00:53:46,600 --> 00:53:50,040 Speaker 1: gallery and you are buying painting after painting from this 792 00:53:50,440 --> 00:53:55,320 Speaker 1: woman from Mexico, who says as representing a famous collector. 793 00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,600 Speaker 1: So then, as a gallery owner, I turned to her 794 00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,239 Speaker 1: and say, so do you think you might happen to 795 00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:05,120 Speaker 1: have some mother will? And then a few weeks later 796 00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:07,520 Speaker 1: she comes with a mother will. I mean, what is 797 00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:11,919 Speaker 1: really the likelihood that this would happen? And would then 798 00:54:12,000 --> 00:54:15,640 Speaker 1: ask her to send an image of the work if 799 00:54:15,680 --> 00:54:19,239 Speaker 1: they'd met with her approval, and would ask Gopa to 800 00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:23,759 Speaker 1: bring the painting in. A standard routine was followed. The 801 00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:26,440 Speaker 1: painting was put in the trunk of Mr X Junior's 802 00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:32,240 Speaker 1: car and transported to a photographer's studio. Pictures were duly 803 00:54:32,320 --> 00:54:34,680 Speaker 1: taken and the painting was then put back in the 804 00:54:34,680 --> 00:54:37,960 Speaker 1: trunk of the car. The plan, as usual, was to 805 00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:40,920 Speaker 1: send the transparencies once they came back from the studio 806 00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:45,440 Speaker 1: to Ann at the Knoedler and would then decide if 807 00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:48,200 Speaker 1: the painting met with her approval. Only then would the 808 00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:53,000 Speaker 1: painting be sent to the gallery. Rosalis soon called Friedman 809 00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:57,600 Speaker 1: with terrible news. While the driver was bringing Mr X's 810 00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:01,080 Speaker 1: Clifford still painting from the photograph for a studio. She 811 00:55:01,160 --> 00:55:04,239 Speaker 1: said there had been an accident. The car had a 812 00:55:04,320 --> 00:55:08,080 Speaker 1: rear engine and the engine had caught fire. The painting 813 00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:13,040 Speaker 1: was nearly destroyed, all but a fragment. When she got 814 00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:16,840 Speaker 1: over her shock and told Rosale's to bring her the fragment, 815 00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:20,680 Speaker 1: the painting was indeed badly burned. It would have been 816 00:55:20,719 --> 00:55:25,160 Speaker 1: two and a half feet by three ft, Friedman said later. Indeed, 817 00:55:25,280 --> 00:55:28,680 Speaker 1: nearly all of the paintings Rosale's would bring were of 818 00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:33,120 Speaker 1: medium scale. To Anne, it made absolute sense that the 819 00:55:33,160 --> 00:55:37,399 Speaker 1: painting had been stored in the trunk. Anne was fascinated 820 00:55:37,480 --> 00:55:40,840 Speaker 1: with the fragment, and more so with the transparency that 821 00:55:40,880 --> 00:55:45,680 Speaker 1: accompanied it. The transparency, after all, showed the whole painting 822 00:55:46,120 --> 00:55:49,399 Speaker 1: before it was consumed by fire. On the drive back 823 00:55:49,440 --> 00:55:53,640 Speaker 1: to Mr X Junior's house, you could see the whole thing, 824 00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:56,560 Speaker 1: and with a fragment you can analyze the front and 825 00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,840 Speaker 1: back differently. You can do a touch and feel about it. 826 00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:04,560 Speaker 1: And later said later in telling that story, Ann would 827 00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:08,000 Speaker 1: beam with triumph. Quote would a con artist burn the 828 00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:10,239 Speaker 1: painting and then save a fragment so it could be 829 00:56:10,280 --> 00:56:14,799 Speaker 1: forensically examined if the painting wasn't real, wouldn't that make 830 00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:21,440 Speaker 1: it obvious? Unquote? Everything checked out and declared, including that 831 00:56:21,560 --> 00:56:23,920 Speaker 1: in one of the pigments that Clifford still used in 832 00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:28,440 Speaker 1: many paintings, there's an oxidation that happens. Proof positive the 833 00:56:28,520 --> 00:56:31,840 Speaker 1: pigment proved the painting was real, or so felt Anne 834 00:56:33,080 --> 00:56:36,920 Speaker 1: as for the burned fragment and kept it as proof 835 00:56:37,000 --> 00:56:40,040 Speaker 1: that the first Clifford still Mr x Jr. Had sold 836 00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:44,480 Speaker 1: her had been real as well. One staff are recalled 837 00:56:44,880 --> 00:56:48,040 Speaker 1: that the fragment was kept in a flat white portfolio. 838 00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:51,680 Speaker 1: You could see the burn marks on the edges. It 839 00:56:51,880 --> 00:57:00,640 Speaker 1: was and Friedman's own shroud of Turin Conveniently, Mr Junior 840 00:57:00,760 --> 00:57:04,560 Speaker 1: managed to find another Clifford still in storage and sent 841 00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:09,320 Speaker 1: it along and in turn took it to the annual 842 00:57:09,480 --> 00:57:13,800 Speaker 1: Art Dealers Association of America show at the New York Armory. 843 00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:17,400 Speaker 1: Bill Ruben came by in a wheelchair and said of 844 00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:20,560 Speaker 1: the famous director of the Museum of Modern Art and 845 00:57:20,640 --> 00:57:24,720 Speaker 1: brother of the Nler's former director, Larry Reuben, whom Anne 846 00:57:24,760 --> 00:57:29,040 Speaker 1: had dispatched from the Nler. According to Freedman, Bill Reuben 847 00:57:29,120 --> 00:57:33,080 Speaker 1: looked hard at the Clifford still and said, yes, that's 848 00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:36,840 Speaker 1: a cliff painting. I turned it around for him and 849 00:57:36,880 --> 00:57:42,120 Speaker 1: he confirmed that it was a Clifford Still painting. Bill 850 00:57:42,160 --> 00:57:46,600 Speaker 1: Ruben had been duped by the Rosava's ring too. In reality, 851 00:57:46,720 --> 00:57:50,120 Speaker 1: none of the details in gas story of the burned 852 00:57:50,160 --> 00:57:54,920 Speaker 1: Clifford Still painting were true. Now we know, no fire 853 00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:59,440 Speaker 1: really happened, right did it happened? Actually, Carlos was preparing 854 00:57:59,480 --> 00:58:03,680 Speaker 1: the pieces, and he was treating them with her dryers 855 00:58:03,800 --> 00:58:08,720 Speaker 1: and for in them in coal and had temperatures so 856 00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:12,800 Speaker 1: that one got burned because he forgot to turn the 857 00:58:12,840 --> 00:58:15,720 Speaker 1: hair dryer of, and of course it went in flames. 858 00:58:16,080 --> 00:58:20,560 Speaker 1: And now Anne is waiting for the piece. And what 859 00:58:20,760 --> 00:58:23,960 Speaker 1: is this planation? I'm going to give Carlos tolm It 860 00:58:24,000 --> 00:58:28,200 Speaker 1: will tell them this. I want people to know that 861 00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:30,920 Speaker 1: I have never talked to nobody. I have never been 862 00:58:31,000 --> 00:58:35,040 Speaker 1: interviewed about my life or about this case, except for 863 00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:40,840 Speaker 1: the government of course. More from Glafira Rosale's herself next 864 00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:47,440 Speaker 1: time on art fraud. You have the cool, clear eyes 865 00:58:47,760 --> 00:58:55,080 Speaker 1: of a secret of wisdom and truth. Yet there's that top. 866 00:58:58,160 --> 00:59:11,840 Speaker 1: I'm the Grell loving pat You youth, believe you, leaveing 867 00:59:12,120 --> 00:59:17,320 Speaker 1: you Art Fraud is brought to you by I Heart 868 00:59:17,440 --> 00:59:22,640 Speaker 1: Radio and Cavalry Audio. Our executive producers are Matt del Piano, 869 00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:27,920 Speaker 1: Keegan Rosenberger, myself and Michael Schneyerson. We're produced by Brandon 870 00:59:27,960 --> 00:59:32,560 Speaker 1: Morgan and Zach McNeice. Zack also edited and mixed this episode. 871 00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:38,000 Speaker 1: Lindsay Hoffman is our managing producer. Our writer is Michael Schneyerson. 872 00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:58,200 Speaker 1: I believe you and my faith and my fo Did 873 00:59:58,240 --> 01:00:00,520 Speaker 1: you know that on the day Dr King was shot, 874 01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:03,920 Speaker 1: the old black security detail normally assigned to him was 875 01:00:03,960 --> 01:00:07,800 Speaker 1: called off. They're the ones who would not allow him 876 01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:18,200 Speaker 1: to stay at any hotel with balconies. All about This 877 01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:21,640 Speaker 1: is the MLK tapes. The first episodes are available now. 878 01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:25,200 Speaker 1: Listen on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 879 01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:29,320 Speaker 1: wherever you get your podcasts. Conquer your New Year's resolutions 880 01:00:29,320 --> 01:00:32,840 Speaker 1: with the Before Breakfast podcast and each bite sized daily episode, 881 01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:34,640 Speaker 1: you'll learn how to make the most of your time 882 01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:37,120 Speaker 1: with practical tools to help you feel less busy and 883 01:00:37,160 --> 01:00:39,560 Speaker 1: get more done. Listen to Before Breakfast on the I 884 01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:43,160 Speaker 1: Heart Radio app four. Wherever you get your podcasts, you're there. 885 01:00:43,160 --> 01:00:46,200 Speaker 1: I'm Scott Rank, host of the podcast History Unplugged Now. 886 01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:48,120 Speaker 1: It really is a dream come true to get paid 887 01:00:48,160 --> 01:00:50,720 Speaker 1: to talk about history without all the stress, while still 888 01:00:50,720 --> 01:00:52,560 Speaker 1: being able to make a living, and I did it 889 01:00:52,600 --> 01:00:55,240 Speaker 1: with Spreaker from my heart. Not only did they make 890 01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:58,200 Speaker 1: it super easy to monetize my podcast, but at revenue 891 01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:00,440 Speaker 1: is three to four times higher with Spreaker than with 892 01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:02,680 Speaker 1: any other host I've worked with. So if you want 893 01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:04,520 Speaker 1: to turn your passion into a podcast and give this 894 01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:08,080 Speaker 1: a try, visit spreaker dot com. That's s p r 895 01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:11,280 Speaker 1: e a k e er dot com. Get paid to 896 01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:12,800 Speaker 1: talk about the things you love.