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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark, and

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Speaker 2: there's Charles w Chuck Bryan over there, and Jerry's here somewhere.

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Speaker 2: So this is Stuff you should know, the Art World edition.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what, I just realized. We record these

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Speaker 1: in two's and we just recorded the Pog's episode, right,

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Speaker 1: and you didn't say welcome to the podcast.

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Speaker 2: I didn't have.

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Speaker 1: Missed opportunity for a great dad joke.

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Speaker 2: That sounds like something I would skip though, even had

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Speaker 2: I thought of it, Or I don't know that I

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Speaker 2: would have pulled the trigger.

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Speaker 1: On I think or I could see you pulling the

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Speaker 1: trigger and then making fun of yourself, right, but.

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Speaker 2: I would have just been engaged in self loathing for

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Speaker 2: the rest of the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Well, retroactively, I'm gonna say, I hope everyone enjoyed the podcast.

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Speaker 1: Now let's talk about art mysteries.

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Speaker 2: I love this one, man, this is great. This reminds

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Speaker 2: me of a Stuff you Should Know episode from years back.

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Speaker 1: For some reason, Well, it's because we don't do these

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Speaker 1: top lists anymore. Are part of it, you know. Very

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Speaker 1: famously we used to have top tens on our old

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Speaker 1: House Stuffworks website, of which usually there were maybe seven

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Speaker 1: decent entries, so we never did I don't think we

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Speaker 1: ever did a full ten on anything. Maybe somebody could

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Speaker 1: probably correct us, but this one actually came in at seven.

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Speaker 2: They didn't even try.

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Speaker 1: And I don't even know. We may do like five

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Speaker 1: of these. We haven't even figured it out yet.

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Speaker 2: We'll see. We're gonna play it fast and loose. I

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Speaker 2: think that's another reason why it reminds me of an

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Speaker 2: old stuff You should know episode Fast and Loose. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: fast and loose. First you got the fast, then you

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Speaker 2: got the loose.

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Speaker 1: But never furious because he wants to be mad. I

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Speaker 1: don't know they should have called out series Fast and Loose.

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Speaker 2: That. I think I've heard it before that that series

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Speaker 2: is the highest grossing movie franchise in the history of

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Speaker 2: film like worldwide.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. You know what's funny is at one point we

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Speaker 1: were this is years ago, we were talking with Ludicrous

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Speaker 1: about doing something with a network, and I, uh, because

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Speaker 1: he's he's a local guy here in Atlanta, And I

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Speaker 1: talked to our boss and said, what's he what's he

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Speaker 1: doing these days? Like I haven't heard any music? And

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Speaker 1: he went he makes fast and furious movies, like that's

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Speaker 1: his job now, Yeah, because he's just getting rich off

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Speaker 1: of making these movies, like.

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Speaker 2: I can't even imagine. And plus also, I mean they're

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Speaker 2: pretty it's pretty involved movie making. I would guess, like

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Speaker 2: I'm sure because there's so many stars involved that, you know,

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Speaker 2: the shooting schedule for each one isn't necessarily you know,

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Speaker 2: a year long endeavor or anything like that, and they

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Speaker 2: probably have it down to like a pretty fast science

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Speaker 2: by now. But like, I would think that would eat

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Speaker 2: up a pretty decent amount of your time. I'm shooting

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Speaker 2: one of those films every few you know, a couple

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Speaker 2: of times, well, I guess every few years.

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Speaker 1: I only saw one of those.

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Speaker 2: I think, Man, I'm slowly like degenerating into Bob Newhart. Man,

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Speaker 2: have you known?

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Speaker 1: Man? Good?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, you could degenerate into worse things than that. But

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Speaker 2: I mean, like I've really I'm really hitting that new

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Speaker 2: Heart note these days.

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Speaker 1: I've noticed that's a great note. I love it. I've

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Speaker 1: always wanted Bob Newhart as my podcasting partner.

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Speaker 2: So well, you you've you've there, you go, You've got it, buddy.

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Speaker 1: All right. Number one on the list you want to

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Speaker 1: talk a little cut of Agio.

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Speaker 2: So Caravaggio is my new favorite painter. Oh yeah, not

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Speaker 2: just because he was a scummy lowlife swordsman from the Murderer. Yeah. Uh,

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Speaker 2: he was a gambler. He would he had weapons charges

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Speaker 2: against him while he was alive. He was not a

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Speaker 2: good guy by any stretch of the imagination. Very troubled

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Speaker 2: person is a really polite way to put it. But

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Speaker 2: if you look at his art, like, I had no idea,

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Speaker 2: I've seen like so many works of his art and

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Speaker 2: I never pieced together that they were the same person.

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Speaker 2: And then when I really started to read some criticism

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Speaker 2: of his work, I'm like, oh my god, this guy

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Speaker 2: he's considered one of the fathers of modern art. And

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Speaker 2: this guy was painting at the beginning of the seventeenth century,

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Speaker 2: the early sixteen hundreds, and just like POGs, he burned

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Speaker 2: hot and bright and fast and furious.

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Speaker 1: Actually, sadly, oh that's right, that wasn't even forced. Nice work,

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Speaker 1: Bob so. Michelangelo Marisi de Caravaggio was an Italian Baroque painter.

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Speaker 1: He at one point in sixteen oh six, killed a

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Speaker 1: man name Ramuccio Tomasani and said I got to get

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Speaker 1: out of here because I'm in big trouble now, and

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Speaker 1: went to went away from Rome and fled to Malta,

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Speaker 1: where he had a pretty brief but I guess notable stay.

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Speaker 1: He was only there about six months and kind of

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Speaker 1: hiding out and quickly hooked up with the Knights of

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Speaker 1: Malta and was briefly one of the Knights of Malta,

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Speaker 1: like for a month. Yeah, and painted one of his

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Speaker 1: most famous paintings there, the oil on canvas twelve feet

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Speaker 1: by seventeen feet, the Beheading of John the Baptist.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was an altarpiece for the Order of Saint John,

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Speaker 2: also known as the Knights of Malta. They were going

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Speaker 2: to again put this behind the altar in their church

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Speaker 2: on Malta, and it was actually his little entry fee.

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Speaker 2: They charged an entry fee, usually money to their initiates.

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Speaker 2: They accepted, yeah, but they accepted this altar beeces giant

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Speaker 2: painting of Saint John the Baptist being beheaded, and it

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Speaker 2: was actually I mean, as far as the car Vaggio goes,

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Speaker 2: especially toward the end of his life, it's actually fairly

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Speaker 2: tame because there's not you know, like jets of blood

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Speaker 2: spurting out. It's a pool of blood that's being shown.

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Speaker 2: He paints some really violent stuff and and like you

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Speaker 2: said that that kind of that. He was a master

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Speaker 2: of light and shadow. It's called Kira scuro and and

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Speaker 2: he used it to really dramatic effect, including in that painting,

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Speaker 2: and in fact, one of the other paintings that you

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Speaker 2: might have seen of his chuck it's called Judith beheading Halofernes.

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Speaker 2: Have you seen it? I have so Judith, the woman

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Speaker 2: who's in that painting, the woman who modeled for that

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Speaker 2: for Judith, that was the woman that he killed. Bernuccio

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Speaker 2: TOMISONI over.

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Speaker 1: Right, did you know that I did?

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Speaker 2: Oh? You did? Okay?

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Speaker 1: Well, at any rate, they really in this House of

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Speaker 1: Works article they called it a petty squabble and that

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Speaker 1: that really doesn't the story.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Another explanation I saw was that it was over

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Speaker 2: a tennis wager. And this is real tennis, not lawn tennis,

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Speaker 2: and real tennis is kind of like this kooky mix

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Speaker 2: between squash and racquetball and tennis, and it's all indoors

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Speaker 2: and there's like horse sheds basically involved that you can

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Speaker 2: play off the roofs of it's really interesting stuff. And

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Speaker 2: he used to play that a lot too, But so

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Speaker 2: it was either over a wager or it was over

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Speaker 2: this woman.

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Speaker 1: Her name was what was it, Judith.

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Speaker 2: No Felide Felide I believe was the actual woman's name

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Speaker 2: who modeled for Judith. So he ends up on Malta.

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Speaker 2: He becomes a knight, and when he becomes this night

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Speaker 2: he paints this altarpiece and he signs his name in

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Speaker 2: the pool of Blood, which you're like, well, he's an artist.

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Speaker 2: That seems like something an artist would do, not Caravaggio.

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Speaker 2: This is actually the first and only work of his

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Speaker 2: that he ever signed, which a lot of people are like, Okay,

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Speaker 2: wait a minute, let's examine this.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And it kind of took a while for it

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Speaker 1: to be even very visible because it underwent some restorations

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Speaker 1: over the years, and in the nineteen fifties they did

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Speaker 1: a restoration where they really could see the signature and

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Speaker 1: what it said I don't know about for the first time,

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Speaker 1: but like super clearly at least, and it said F

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Speaker 1: period god, F mitche lang M I C H E

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Speaker 1: l A N G. And then you know, of course,

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Speaker 1: everyone's like, well, what does this mean because there is

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Speaker 1: no F in his name. It's not like his initial.

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Speaker 1: Is he saying, you know, hey, screw Michelangelo, myself, screw me,

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Speaker 1: or I'm screwed. No, no one really said that. They

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Speaker 1: thought that F. There are a couple of different theories.

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Speaker 1: Thought it was shorthand for fratter or which means brother,

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Speaker 1: because he was one of the knights, and maybe he

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Speaker 1: just meant like brother Michelangelo or whatever. And then some

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Speaker 1: other people said no, maybe it means stands for fesset fec,

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Speaker 1: which is Latin for did, translating basically into I did it,

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Speaker 1: and it's spelled out in blood, kind of confessing to

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Speaker 1: his crime.

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Speaker 2: Right, So that's kind of like where the mystery comes in.

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Speaker 2: Was he confessing to the crime of murdering Renuccio Tomosoni?

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Speaker 2: From what I saw most I can't say most, but

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Speaker 2: the art historians and critics that I saw basically said no,

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Speaker 2: he almost certainly wasn't doing that. For one, everybody knew

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Speaker 2: that he did it. He'd already been coated in absentia.

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Speaker 2: That's so it's not like he was confessing to it.

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Speaker 2: Although you can make the case that he was confessing

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Speaker 2: in the Catholic sense of the word. Do you know

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Speaker 2: what I mean right like before God, Yeah, exactly, or

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Speaker 2: de Bear's.

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Speaker 1: That painting still hangs at Saint John's Co Cathedral in Multitude.

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, yeah, well, I mean it was the altar piece,

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Speaker 2: like they like, it was a big deal that they

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Speaker 2: got their hands on it, because he was a celebrated

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Speaker 2: painter at the time already in his lifetime. But the

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Speaker 2: other interpretation that he was saying f as in Freighter

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Speaker 2: or Brother Michelangelo about himself, that's probably the likelier version

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Speaker 2: because he was at the time seeking a pardon from

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Speaker 2: the Pope so he could return to Rome, and by

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Speaker 2: saying like I'm in this holy order, I'm basically like

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Speaker 2: a Catholic holy man now a leader of the church

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Speaker 2: because the Order of Saint John, the Knights of Malta

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Speaker 2: have inducted me. He was basically shouting at loud and

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Speaker 2: proud by signing that one particular very holy painting that

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Speaker 2: he did.

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Speaker 1: But they said, nice, try, buddy, and they kicked him

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Speaker 1: out for being a quote foul and rotten member end quote.

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Speaker 1: So it didn't work.

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Speaker 2: A month after a month, dude, he lasted a month

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Speaker 2: in the Order of Saint John's. And it's not like

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Speaker 2: they ran around willy nilly inducting people like they basically

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Speaker 2: had no idea that they had. What was Vic's last

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Speaker 2: name in The Shield?

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Speaker 1: Victay Beck, No, not victay Back, I don't know. I

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Speaker 1: didn't watch The Shield, Oh you didn't.

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Speaker 2: It was good. I rewatched like the last seven episodes

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Speaker 2: the other night, over a couple of nights. It still

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Speaker 2: holds up, actually, But anyway, they didn't realize that they

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Speaker 2: had inducted him, the guy from the Shield, and they

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Speaker 2: figured it out pretty quickly. So he made his way

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Speaker 2: back from Malta to I believe sicily on his way

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Speaker 2: to Rome, and I think he actually got a pardon

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Speaker 2: and got into yet another squabble, another sword fight, and

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Speaker 2: sustained some wounds, and between infected wounds, they think he

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Speaker 2: got a staff infection, lead poisoning. He apparently had gone

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Speaker 2: rather mad from being exposed to the paints that he

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Speaker 2: painted with, and then sun exposure sunstroke on the beach

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Speaker 2: in Tuscan. He finally killed him, and so it goes,

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Speaker 2: yes it does, but his paintings are still just amazing.

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Speaker 2: I can look at him all day, you know, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: me too.

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Speaker 1: I like this. I like this stuff.

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Speaker 2: I do too, So that's Caravaggio.

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Speaker 1: How about Vermire, Well, I think we should take a break.

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Speaker 1: Oh gosh, and we'll be back right after this. All right,

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Speaker 1: we had a great cliffhanger with Vermire. Vermire, the very

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Speaker 1: famous Dutch artist Johannes Vermire, had a very famous painting,

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Speaker 1: a lot of very famous paintings, but one in particular

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Speaker 1: that has had a bunch of names over the years.

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Speaker 1: In fact, it did not get the name Girl with

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Speaker 1: a Pearl ear Ring until the twentieth century. It was

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Speaker 1: called everything from a Girl with a Turban to Girl

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Speaker 1: with an Earring, had lots of different names because it

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Speaker 1: was not officially titled by Vermir Noor dated even though

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Speaker 1: they think it was around sixteen sixty five.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he was just like this, this dude who lived

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Speaker 2: in delt in the Netherlands and never left his hometown

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Speaker 2: and had a wife and fifteen kids fifteen, yeah, fifteen kids,

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Speaker 2: and just kind of painted and he made probably a

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Speaker 2: comparatively small number of works. I think around thirty six

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Speaker 2: are attributed to him, and there's a theory that as

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Speaker 2: many as a fifth of those were done by his

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Speaker 2: oldest daughter, Maria. But he's kind of like this enigma

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Speaker 2: at the time, not just personally, but also the stuff

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Speaker 2: he was painting. There was a huge movement among the

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Speaker 2: Dutch painters at the time that they would paint like these,

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Speaker 2: you know, horror, thick healscapes or there was a lot

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Speaker 2: of like obvious narrative and symbolism just all over the paintings.

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Speaker 2: There was just a lot going on. Vermere went a

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Speaker 2: different way where he would almost peek in on very

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Speaker 2: normal daily life and capture like these these really just

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Speaker 2: kind of boring her otherwise mundane moments. But he did

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Speaker 2: it in a way that this guy was like the

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Speaker 2: Master of light. He makes he makes Thomas Kinkaid look

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Speaker 2: like puke as far as like you know, light Master.

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Speaker 1: He goes So girl with a pearl earring. Everyone has

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Speaker 1: seen it, Like I said, it's very famous. It's a

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Speaker 1: young girl looks to be sort of like mid teenage

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Speaker 1: years looking over her shoulder, she's wearing a dress, she's

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Speaker 1: wearing that turban. Very prominent ear rings, large pearl ear

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Speaker 1: rings and pearls factored into quite a few of his

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Speaker 1: works over the years, and it's one of those paintings

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Speaker 1: where the eyes follow you supposedly, which we've talked about

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Speaker 1: in one of our short Stuff episodes on Mona Lisa.

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Speaker 1: I think so, yeah, it's you know, the effect of

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Speaker 1: the eyes following, which doesn't happen in all paintings with eyes.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, the Mona Lisa's eyes actually don't follow you.

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Speaker 2: I think that was the big reveal of that one,

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Speaker 2: was it. Yeah?

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Speaker 1: All right, So he paints his painting, and then, of

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Speaker 1: course the mystery of this one is who is this person.

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Speaker 1: There has been speculation that it might be a mistress.

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Speaker 1: A lot of people think it was his daughter, Maria,

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Speaker 1: who would have been about fifteen or sixteen, and like

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Speaker 1: you said, who some people believe painted about a fifth

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Speaker 1: of the works attributed to him, because about a fifth

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Speaker 1: of his collected works aren't I mean this sounds mean

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Speaker 1: to say, but they aren't as they aren't up to

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Speaker 1: snuff compared to us other works, so they sort of

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Speaker 1: stand out from the rest, so they think that they

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Speaker 1: may have been Maria's good painting.

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Speaker 2: Still, yeah, there's still a lot better than anything I

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Speaker 2: could say.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's not like there were stick fit years, you know,

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Speaker 1: out of nowhere.

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Speaker 2: They're like this Vermere seems off.

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Speaker 1: But you know, if you've there was a nineteen ninety

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Speaker 1: nine novel from Tracy Chevalier, The Girl with a Pearl Earring,

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Speaker 1: and then the two thousand film adaptation starring Scarlett Johansson,

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Speaker 1: who was perfectly cast. She looks, you know, quite a

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Speaker 1: bit like The Girl with a Pearl Earring. But this

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Speaker 1: was historical fiction. If you've seen that movie and you're like, no,

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Speaker 1: she was the family's maid's assistant and love interest to Vermire,

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Speaker 1: that was just I don't even think that was based

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Speaker 1: on anything. It's just historical fiction.

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Speaker 2: Yes, from what I've seen, the art critics and historians

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Speaker 2: basically tend to think that there was no person that

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Speaker 2: this was modeled on. There. It wasn't even necessarily his daughter.

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Speaker 2: And in fact, it was kind of a trend at

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Speaker 2: the time a painting called a trony, which was an

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Speaker 2: imaginary figure, a person who didn't actually exist, and the

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Speaker 2: point was to kind of show off things like costumes

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Speaker 2: and jewelry, which is ostensibly the point of that painting.

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Speaker 2: But the thing is the Vermire, the face that he did,

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Speaker 2: and where the place that he put her, Like we

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Speaker 2: were talking about how she gets compared to Mona Lisa.

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Speaker 2: She's called the Mona Lisa of the North. Mona Lisa

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Speaker 2: is like sitting back in the painting. The girl with

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Speaker 2: the pearl earring is like right in the foreground, like right,

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Speaker 2: there's very little between you and her, and she's turned

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Speaker 2: around and her mouth's open, which apparently was very unusual

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Speaker 2: for painting Dutch painting at the time, and it looks

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Speaker 2: like she's going to say something. I guess that that

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Speaker 2: is what entrances people with this image that you know,

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Speaker 2: what's she going to say? What did he capture her

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Speaker 2: about to say? You know, it looks like she's turning

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Speaker 2: around like oh, and you know this other thing I

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Speaker 2: hadn't told.

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Speaker 1: You maybe she was an improv comedian. And she was, yes, yes,

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Speaker 1: and you never know. But this is a mystery they'll

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Speaker 1: never be saw, which I like those kind of mysteries

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Speaker 1: when it comes to stuff like this.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I saw that argued as well, that it

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Speaker 2: was like, you know, if we knew who she was,

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Speaker 2: it would just it would we would lose a lot

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Speaker 2: of the interest in.

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Speaker 1: It, and we would have found out by now.

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Speaker 2: I think, yes, yeah, and you're right, we probably won't

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Speaker 2: ever know. But because of this so like it wasn't

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Speaker 2: like very well thought of or nobody really thought much

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Speaker 2: of it until nineteen ninety five and the National Gallery

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Speaker 2: used it as the poster for their big exhibit. But

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Speaker 2: since then a lot of people have really kind of

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Speaker 2: examined it. And I hadn't noticed this before, but I

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Speaker 2: saw it, pointed out Chuck. If you look at the

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Speaker 2: pearl earring. First of all, it's improbably large, is how

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Speaker 2: I saw it described, like the ear couldn't physically hold

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Speaker 2: up a pearl that size. But then secondly, it's really

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Speaker 2: basically made with two brushstrokes. Both of them are reflecting light.

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Speaker 2: One is from the light source and then the lower

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Speaker 2: one is reflecting the light off of the caller. And

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Speaker 2: it's pretty amazing that, you know, we talk about this

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Speaker 2: the girl with the pearl earing this pearl itself is

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Speaker 2: is like a kind of a cultural icon too, and

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Speaker 2: it's basically just two brushstrokes, which is kind of goes

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Speaker 2: to show how great Vermir was.

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Speaker 1: Amazing.

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Speaker 2: Have you ever seen Tim's Vermuir the documentary? I have not, Oh, Chuck,

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Speaker 2: You've got to see it. It's directed by Teller from

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Speaker 2: Penn and teller, which makes you think, like, how did

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Speaker 2: he direct if he doesn't talk, you know, but he

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Speaker 2: somehow did.

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Speaker 1: I think.

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Speaker 2: It's about what that's just a bit and it's about

350
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Speaker 2: It's about a guy who basically figured out that Vermir

351
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Speaker 2: somehow projected images that he built in real life onto

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Speaker 2: a canvas and then painted him that way. And he

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Speaker 2: actually replicates a Vermir like perfectly. It's really just one

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Speaker 2: of the better documentaries you'll ever see.

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Speaker 1: Very cool.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so what do you think?

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Speaker 1: And rafe yell, Yeah, so the mystery here and this

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Speaker 1: is one of our This actually has a Simpsons crossover

359
00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:07,320
Speaker 1: as well, which is kind of fun because Raphael painted

360
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Speaker 1: a very famous painting called Portrait of a young Man

361
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Speaker 1: and is largely described as one of the most famous,

362
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Speaker 1: if not the most famous pieces of art to go

363
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Speaker 1: missing during the plundering of great art in World War

364
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Speaker 1: Two by Hitler in The Gang. And this is a

365
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Speaker 1: crossover with The Simpsons in that in the Fighting Hellfish

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Speaker 1: episode when Grandpa Abe and Burns are stealing art, this

367
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Speaker 1: is one of the paintings Portrait of a young Man. Oh,

368
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Speaker 1: it's one of the paintings that they stole. Wow, Which

369
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Speaker 1: shows that you know Simpsons writers back then at least

370
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Speaker 1: were definitely doing their work, like their research work, because

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Speaker 1: that's a nice little easter egg, I think.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. Doesn't it even talk? Doesn't it say something

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Speaker 2: like someone's guilty conscience or something. I don't remember making

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Speaker 2: that up.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't remember. I mean, it's been

376
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Speaker 1: a long time since I've seen that one. But it

377
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Speaker 1: was one of the great episodes, I think.

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Speaker 2: So the Portrait of the young Man, which they think

379
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,399
Speaker 2: was a Raphael self portrait, and actually we have no

380
00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,000
Speaker 2: idea what the colors were because the only photographs we

381
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:12,399
Speaker 2: have of it were in black and white. But he

382
00:21:12,480 --> 00:21:17,359
Speaker 2: used to hang in the Prince's zar Torski Museum in Poland,

383
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Speaker 2: along with two other really important paintings, Leonardo's Lady with

384
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Speaker 2: an Ermine, which is a scout stoat I can't remember,

385
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:30,160
Speaker 2: kind of a weasel like animal, and then Rembrandts Landscape

386
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Speaker 2: with the Good Samaritan. And all three of those and

387
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Speaker 2: everything else in the Prince's zar Torski Museum were swiped

388
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Speaker 2: by the Nazis when they came to Poland and placed

389
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Speaker 2: in the office of a guy named Hans Frank who

390
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Speaker 2: was the head of the government for the Nazis in Poland, right.

391
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Speaker 1: Yeah, And you know, they almost they almost got these

392
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:54,040
Speaker 1: hidden away successfully when Poland was being invaded. They knew

393
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Speaker 1: that the art was going to be plundered, and so

394
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Speaker 1: those three paintings were actually rescued by the Prince hidden

395
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Speaker 1: away in a house in a place that I can't

396
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Speaker 1: even pronounce, Sienawa. I'm not sure what that is. But

397
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Speaker 1: they were ultimately found by the Gestapo and handed over

398
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Speaker 1: to Frank and Frank. You know, they were supposed to

399
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Speaker 1: go to Hitler. Hitler's going to open a museum, the

400
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Speaker 1: Furia Museum, and Lenz and Frank actually kind of kept

401
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Speaker 1: it for a little while, hung it in his residence,

402
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Speaker 1: and then eventually this thing went to Germany and then

403
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Speaker 1: Austria for a little while, and then back with Frank

404
00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:34,760
Speaker 1: in nineteen forty five.

405
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Speaker 2: Which seems crazy improbable that they would end up back

406
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:42,439
Speaker 2: with him, but they did. And the Allies came in

407
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Speaker 2: to Poland, I guess, and arrested Hans Frank in nineteen

408
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Speaker 2: forty five, and they were able to find the Lady

409
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Speaker 2: with an Ermine and the landscape with the Good Samaritan,

410
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Speaker 2: but the portrait of the young Man was nowhere to

411
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Speaker 2: be found.

412
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Speaker 1: Yeah, they found a lot of other stuff too.

413
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Speaker 2: Sure, they definitely did. But the three most important pieces

414
00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:06,760
Speaker 2: in the Prince's Zartarski Museum were those three, and two

415
00:23:06,800 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 2: were recovered, one wasn't. And it's very odd to think

416
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,440
Speaker 2: that they were separated at any time, or that it's

417
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 2: even odder to think that two were kept together, but

418
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Speaker 2: one wasn't. And so because the portrait of the young

419
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Speaker 2: Man was not recovered, and it's a Raphael who's you know,

420
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Speaker 2: one of the great Italian Renaissance painters, it's considered maybe

421
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Speaker 2: the most important piece to go missing in World War two.

422
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Speaker 1: Yeah, and they, you know, along with I think over

423
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:36,919
Speaker 1: eight hundred other artifacts they got from him, and they

424
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Speaker 1: could not go on to question him very long because

425
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Speaker 1: he was executed just a year later. And since then

426
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Speaker 1: there have been a lot of rumors about where this

427
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,440
Speaker 1: thing ended up. Who has it, a lot of speculation

428
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:52,600
Speaker 1: that maybe a private collector in another country has it.

429
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Speaker 1: I think in twenty twelve there was a false report

430
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Speaker 1: that it was supposedly in some bank vault, and they

431
00:23:59,680 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 1: really don't know. It's just sort of one of those

432
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Speaker 1: great mysteries of a disappeared painting, and my money is

433
00:24:06,280 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 1: on a private collector probably has this thing stashed away.

434
00:24:08,600 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 1: But you would also think that at some point somebody

435
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 1: would talk.

436
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,439
Speaker 2: You would think so, and you know, maybe they will eventually.

437
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: Unless it's really sashed.

438
00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 2: Well, some people think it was destroyed, and that movie

439
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:24,919
Speaker 2: Monuments Men, right, they show the Nazis igniting it with

440
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:26,959
Speaker 2: the flamethrower in a cave with a bunch of other

441
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:30,040
Speaker 2: art and there, you know, there's a whole camp that says,

442
00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 2: now this thing is it's gone forever. So they did

443
00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 2: something to it, because the Nazis were known not just

444
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 2: plunder but also destroy art as well, which just one

445
00:24:38,320 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 2: more reason to love them Nazis.

446
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think this is oil on panel, so

447
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 1: it's I don't think this could even be like rolled

448
00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 1: up in a tube and put under your bed or anything.

449
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:49,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, I would guess not. No, I didn't realize it

450
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 2: was on panel, but that makes sense. But the the state,

451
00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 2: the National Museum in Krakow bought the entire Princess ark

452
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,919
Speaker 2: Torsky collection from a private colle elector for one hundred

453
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 2: million euros back in twenty sixteen, and that I know,

454
00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:07,120
Speaker 2: and that included the rights to portrait of a young

455
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,600
Speaker 2: Man in case it's ever found, And for now it's

456
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,119
Speaker 2: just they have the original frame hanging empty in the

457
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 2: in the gallery.

458
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it turns out that's a thing I didn't

459
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,479
Speaker 1: know as a thing in ty frames in galleries. It's

460
00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 1: kind of sad.

461
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's sad. It's very poignant. It says, come home,

462
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 2: come home. We're leaving the light on for you, come home,

463
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:33,400
Speaker 2: just like Motel six. That's right right, top bro call,

464
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 2: we'll leave the lne out for it. All right.

465
00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 1: Well, that means it's time for another break and we'll

466
00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:40,360
Speaker 1: be back right after this to talk a little bit

467
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:41,640
Speaker 1: about Van Goch.

468
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 2: So Chuck before I launched into saka go away type,

469
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,800
Speaker 2: tie rade onto you? Is that how you accurately pronounce

470
00:26:09,840 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 2: his name?

471
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:14,280
Speaker 1: I don't know it was. It was from the filmmaker

472
00:26:14,320 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 1: who dare not speak his name. It was from a

473
00:26:15,680 --> 00:26:20,280
Speaker 1: Woody Allen movie. I think it was in the most

474
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,160
Speaker 1: problematic movie Manhattan, when he's with Diane Keaton and some

475
00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:26,520
Speaker 1: obnoxious person says Van or I think it's Dian Keaton,

476
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 1: says Van Goch, and he's you know, he's incense. He's

477
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:31,760
Speaker 1: like Van Gock, like how pretentious.

478
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 2: So okay, So instead we're just gonna go with Van

479
00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 2: Go like everybody else, right, yeah, sure, okay, and we can.

480
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 1: Cut all that out if we want to. Don't even

481
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 1: want to talk about Woody Allen, that's.

482
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 2: Fine, sure, sure, I hear you. So Van Go was

483
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,680
Speaker 2: most he was just such a sad, tragic figure out

484
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 2: for this guy so much after learning more about him,

485
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 2: we should do an entire podcast on him, if you

486
00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 2: ask me, I agreed, But instead here we're going to

487
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,920
Speaker 2: talk about his death because there is a mystery surrounding

488
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,200
Speaker 2: his death. He's very famous for having cut off his ear.

489
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,159
Speaker 2: He definitely did that, and I had always learned that

490
00:27:05,200 --> 00:27:08,600
Speaker 2: he did it to impress a sex worker who he

491
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,480
Speaker 2: was enamored with, and he definitely did give her his

492
00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 2: ear after he cut it off, But that's not why

493
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,120
Speaker 2: he cut it off. He cut it off in a

494
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,800
Speaker 2: fit of angst, basically after having an argument with his

495
00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:24,760
Speaker 2: friend Paul Gogan, who he was living with in Arles

496
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 2: in the south of France, and he said, well, I'm

497
00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 2: going to make some sort of lemonade out of this

498
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:33,840
Speaker 2: lemon I just gave myself, and he took it to

499
00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 2: his I guess hopeful girlfriend, and I believe she was

500
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 2: not that impressed with it.

501
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:45,359
Speaker 1: Yeah, so he suffered from definitely depression. There is speculation

502
00:27:45,480 --> 00:27:48,480
Speaker 1: that he had bipolar disorder. Yeah, I saw that too,

503
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,359
Speaker 1: was you know, just sort of long suffering as an artist,

504
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: he didn't He only sold one painting before he died

505
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:58,280
Speaker 1: in eighteen ninety at the age of thirty seven. And

506
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: the story he goes is that he shot himself in

507
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 1: the chest with a revolver. But it gets a little

508
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: more complicated than that. And in what year was the book?

509
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 1: In twenty eleven, there was a book written called Van

510
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:18,440
Speaker 1: go Colon the Life written by Stephen I'm gonna say,

511
00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:23,199
Speaker 1: Maifa okay and Gregory white Smith, And it seems like

512
00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 1: they sort of launched this idea or at least really

513
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,560
Speaker 1: put it in the public forefront that he was actually

514
00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: killed almost certainly accidentally, by one of two boys, younger

515
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,880
Speaker 1: gentleman that he was hanging out with that day.

516
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 2: Right. So here's the thing, Like, there's a lot of

517
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 2: circumstantial evidence that supports that theory that it was killed

518
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:50,920
Speaker 2: by two boys.

519
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 1: Aye by it.

520
00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 2: There's also it's also circumstantially plausible that you know, Van

521
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,720
Speaker 2: God died by suicide as well. But even if you

522
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 2: take his story and start digging into it and the

523
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 2: statements that he made supposedly made, apparently everything we know

524
00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,760
Speaker 2: about it comes from the owner of the inn where

525
00:29:09,760 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 2: he rented a room's thirteen year old daughter at the time,

526
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:15,360
Speaker 2: as a witness to all this. But even if you

527
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,680
Speaker 2: take what he supposedly said, it still doesn't add up

528
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,040
Speaker 2: that number one, he shot himself in the chest, and

529
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:25,280
Speaker 2: most importantly, the number two, the gun that he shot

530
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 2: himself with could never be found and instead of actually,

531
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 2: you know, finishing the suicide, completing the suicide, he couldn't

532
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 2: find the gun after he shot himself in the chest

533
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 2: and just walked back to his room where he died

534
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: after suffering twenty more hours, but still to the end

535
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,200
Speaker 2: claiming that he had done this himself. Even if you

536
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:50,440
Speaker 2: take all that together, it seems like, no, this's something

537
00:29:50,480 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 2: really fishy going on here.

538
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, so this bullet misses all of his internal organs

539
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: very improbably because it deflected off his rib cage, and

540
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 1: he walked, like you said, to the doctor who they

541
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 1: didn't have a surgeon on duty, so they couldn't remove

542
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,440
Speaker 1: the bullet. He lived a total of thirty hours after

543
00:30:10,760 --> 00:30:14,440
Speaker 1: the shot and died of infection. Got to talk with

544
00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: his brother, you know, was speaking to people, so as

545
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:21,800
Speaker 1: he had every opportunity to say that these two boys

546
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 1: that I was hanging out with that I was drinking,

547
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: and I say boys, I think they were maybe late teens,

548
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 1: early twenties.

549
00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 2: No they were sixteen.

550
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:31,640
Speaker 1: Oh okay, I saw early twenties and another thing. Oh yeah,

551
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:35,960
Speaker 1: but you know, hanging out getting drunk with them. One

552
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 1: of these boys, Renee Sacratan, had a gun that apparently

553
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: misfired a lot, and he liked playing with this thing.

554
00:30:44,120 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 1: He liked to play cowboys, supposedly he did. And so

555
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 1: it all just seems and even his statement, he he said,

556
00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 1: he didn't say I shot myself. He said, do not

557
00:30:56,920 --> 00:31:00,440
Speaker 1: accuse anyone. It was I who wanted to kill myself.

558
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is a very official year as well.

559
00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:07,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, sure, it's ambiguous, I think as far as like,

560
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,840
Speaker 1: because the idea is that maybe he was accidentally shot,

561
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:12,960
Speaker 1: and then after he was shot, he was like, this

562
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 1: is kind of what I wanted all along. You know,

563
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 1: I've been heading down this road towards suicide and then

564
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:19,120
Speaker 1: now it's just done for me.

565
00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 2: So what seems to have happened is that this gun

566
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,960
Speaker 2: possibly that it wasn't actually murdered or any kind of

567
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,840
Speaker 2: premeditated murder, more like a manslaughter where Renee and his

568
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:39,080
Speaker 2: brother guests Don were messing around and accidentally Basically he

569
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 2: had seen a wild Bill Cody Wild West show the

570
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,000
Speaker 2: year before and became obsessed with it, so that's what

571
00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 2: he was doing with a gun and playing cowboy, and

572
00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 2: that they had accidentally shot him with this gun that

573
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 2: was kind of you know, known to misfire. So the

574
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,720
Speaker 2: thing was that the gun was never found. Renee went

575
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:02,480
Speaker 2: back to school like right after that, which was still

576
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:04,600
Speaker 2: in the middle of summer break from what I saw,

577
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 2: and the town seems to have circled the wagons around

578
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 2: this these boys because you know, Van Go was an outsider.

579
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 2: He was not very well thought of. He used to

580
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 2: get really drunk and argue with the locals in the

581
00:32:19,520 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 2: cafe and the and everything like basically every night. And

582
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:26,280
Speaker 2: these boys came from like a good well to do family.

583
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:28,840
Speaker 2: So for many years like that was just the thing,

584
00:32:28,960 --> 00:32:32,240
Speaker 2: like like it just happened, and then slowly, little by

585
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:34,680
Speaker 2: little it seems to have trickled out some support for

586
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 2: this idea, like no, like van Go wasn't anywhere near

587
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 2: this field. He said that he had shot himself in

588
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:42,640
Speaker 2: he was actually on the road to the Secraton's house.

589
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:47,960
Speaker 2: And then finally years later, Renee Secraton said that, you know,

590
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 2: he it probably was his gun and that vang Goo

591
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:54,560
Speaker 2: had somehow gotten hold of it. It seems it seems

592
00:32:54,680 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 2: likely that he was shot by them, whether accident or not.

593
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, these two authors, they put forth some other circumstantial evidence,

594
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 1: like that the bullet went in at a weird angle

595
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,360
Speaker 1: that would not have been the angle if you shot

596
00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:14,720
Speaker 1: yourself in the chest, that his more recent works were

597
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 1: a little more upbeat and a little more positive, and

598
00:33:18,240 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: that he was not in that kind of mindset at

599
00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: the time, and that he had had recently even written

600
00:33:24,760 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 1: his thoughts about suicide, that he thought it was sinful

601
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 1: and immoral. And so they sort of use all this

602
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:32,080
Speaker 1: as evidence that he would not have done it himself

603
00:33:32,520 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: and that it was you know, they believe it was

604
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 1: an accident. His last words, very sad, were the sadness

605
00:33:39,160 --> 00:33:43,560
Speaker 1: will last forever, he spoke to his brother, Which that's tough.

606
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:46,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. I really do want to do an

607
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 2: episode on him.

608
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:49,440
Speaker 1: And I think sek Gatma came out in the fifties

609
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: even and denied it right, like finally once and.

610
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 2: For all he did. He did, but he also he

611
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 2: also said that it probably was his gun and that

612
00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:58,640
Speaker 2: somehow Van Goll had gotten it.

613
00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: Right, but hey, my fault.

614
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 2: No, But to also to back pedal and be like,

615
00:34:04,080 --> 00:34:06,720
Speaker 2: it probably was my gun, because that was another thing

616
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:08,680
Speaker 2: and everybody's like, where did Vang get a gun? Van

617
00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:10,560
Speaker 2: go didn't have a gun, no, and no one would

618
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 2: have given Vang a gun. Y. Yeah, he was the

619
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:14,759
Speaker 2: guy who got drunk every night and had cut off

620
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,319
Speaker 2: his ear before that was like they no one in

621
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 2: town would have given him a gun. So the fact

622
00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 2: that he even admitted that it was his gun is

623
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 2: probably as close as Renee Serkatan ever came to confessing

624
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:29,319
Speaker 2: publicly about it, you know.

625
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:32,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it makes sense what he said was do

626
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,359
Speaker 1: not accuse anyone like that really seems like he's trying

627
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: to cover for these kids that he didn't want to

628
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:38,959
Speaker 1: get in trouble.

629
00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:41,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, because if he wanted to die, but it was

630
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 2: also he didn't want to die by his own hand,

631
00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 2: Like this is kind of a lucky gift in a

632
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:48,759
Speaker 2: very strange way.

633
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: You know. Yeah, I'm going to that immersive van Go

634
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:54,200
Speaker 1: thing in July.

635
00:34:55,160 --> 00:34:55,799
Speaker 2: Where is that?

636
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 1: It is at here in Atlanta. It's at the Pullman

637
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:03,839
Speaker 1: Yards over in Kirkwood where they're shoot Like every movie

638
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,520
Speaker 1: in Atlanta shoots there, right, Yeah, so yeah, it's supposed

639
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:08,080
Speaker 1: to be pretty cool.

640
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 2: It's very very neat. Sounds neat, I mean, like do

641
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:13,800
Speaker 2: it basically? They just make the stars come out whenever

642
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 2: you come in, And I think so. I think you

643
00:35:15,800 --> 00:35:16,839
Speaker 2: sit in this yellow chair.

644
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 1: I think that's the deal. I think you go in

645
00:35:19,280 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 1: and you are surrounded by projected art in different ways

646
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 1: from what I can get, that's all.

647
00:35:26,680 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 2: I got to check that out. Man, thanks for telling

648
00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:29,040
Speaker 2: me about it.

649
00:35:29,120 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, it looks kind of cool, all.

650
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,640
Speaker 2: Right, Chuck. You want to finish out talking about Hitler.

651
00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: Don't you mean Hilter?

652
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 2: Did you know there is Hilter? Oh my gosh, yes,

653
00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 2: in the headline in.

654
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:45,640
Speaker 1: The headline, did Hilter really do these paintings? Do these

655
00:35:45,680 --> 00:35:52,279
Speaker 1: paintings that I feel bad, but like, did Hilter really

656
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:53,600
Speaker 1: do these paintings?

657
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:55,320
Speaker 2: That's great?

658
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:56,800
Speaker 1: Oh yeah he did them.

659
00:35:57,000 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, Hilter did these paintings. So we're talking not about

660
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 2: Hilter but about Hitler, Adolf Hitler in particular. And as

661
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:10,000
Speaker 2: everybody knows, Hitler was a frustrated artist. You know, people

662
00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 2: have made a lot of hay about how possibly the

663
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:14,799
Speaker 2: world would be a totally different place had he been

664
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 2: accepted into the Vienna Academy of Arts. And he came well,

665
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 2: I don't want to say he came close, but he

666
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 2: made two different attempts in one year to be accepted,

667
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:30,600
Speaker 2: and they basically looked at his stuff and said, look, man,

668
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 2: you you have the skill of a draftsman. Maybe you

669
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:38,319
Speaker 2: should go into architecture, like, but you're not going to

670
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 2: be an artist. And that was a direct quote. But

671
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:46,279
Speaker 2: this was a huge deal for him. I think I

672
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,959
Speaker 2: read that in Mine COMF. I haven't read Mine comp

673
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,440
Speaker 2: but I read an article by somebody who read Mine

674
00:36:51,480 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 2: comp and said that he said it was like a

675
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,840
Speaker 2: bolt from the blue, and that you know, he was

676
00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 2: pursuing this dream that his father would like beat him

677
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 2: out of. Like his father enrolled him in a technical school.

678
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 2: He's like, no son of mine's going to be an artist.

679
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,520
Speaker 2: He would beat him up whenever he brought he brought

680
00:37:08,520 --> 00:37:12,200
Speaker 2: the idea up. And so finally, after his father died

681
00:37:12,520 --> 00:37:15,680
Speaker 2: and then he nursed his ailing mother until she died,

682
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 2: he got up the gumption and did like go and

683
00:37:18,760 --> 00:37:22,799
Speaker 2: enroll in art school. And apparently, he, being Hitler, who

684
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 2: I guess had been fairly bonkers his whole life, just

685
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 2: knew that he was destined to become an artist. So

686
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,080
Speaker 2: the idea that he was rebuffed not once but twice

687
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:36,400
Speaker 2: by this Vienna school. These people were like the people

688
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:39,040
Speaker 2: the guardians of what is art and what is not,

689
00:37:39,600 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 2: and they were telling him what you got is not.

690
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 2: That was a huge deal to him.

691
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 1: It was a very big deal. And it's funny, it's

692
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: just now occurring to me that there was sort of

693
00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 1: a similar thing with Manson's rejection as a musician, yeah,

694
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,480
Speaker 1: by the music industry. I never really kind of really

695
00:37:58,480 --> 00:38:03,000
Speaker 1: thought of that parallel. But in nineteen oh nine Hitler

696
00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 1: is trapesing around Vienna and he is selling watercolors copied

697
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:13,720
Speaker 1: from postcards to tourists. So if you've ever traveled to Europe,

698
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:15,680
Speaker 1: he was one of those guys that was down by

699
00:38:15,719 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: the river, the river bank, yeah, in a van, selling

700
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,440
Speaker 1: these and literally copied from postcards. So he did that

701
00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:25,040
Speaker 1: for a little while, made a little bit of money,

702
00:38:25,560 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 1: because you know, if you look at his art, it's

703
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,680
Speaker 1: it's way better than I could do. It's you know,

704
00:38:29,680 --> 00:38:33,440
Speaker 1: it's okay, but like modern and it's hard to tell

705
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: if modern art critics like so much goes into looking

706
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:39,799
Speaker 1: at a Hitler painting and reviewing it, like it's really

707
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 1: hard to kind of separate those things. But the general

708
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: thought is is that he had nothing exceptional about him

709
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,400
Speaker 1: at all. It was he was the kind of artists

710
00:38:49,440 --> 00:38:51,640
Speaker 1: that would sell stuff down by the river to tourists.

711
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:55,080
Speaker 1: He was they were fine, he was capable, but they

712
00:38:55,120 --> 00:38:57,920
Speaker 1: were copycat paintings. He was copying things. He had no

713
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 1: point of view. He did this in nineteen thirteen as

714
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:05,120
Speaker 1: well in Munich, painting Munich city scapes and landscapes and

715
00:39:05,160 --> 00:39:08,919
Speaker 1: selling them the tourists. And then in nineteen fourteen got

716
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,720
Speaker 1: hauled in by the police of all things, for failing

717
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,040
Speaker 1: to register for the military.

718
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then he went down and registered, and then

719
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:24,200
Speaker 2: they gave him a physical exam and he failed it.

720
00:39:24,239 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 2: They said it was too weak to fire a weapon. Yeah,

721
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,799
Speaker 2: So they arrested him so that they could humiliate him basically,

722
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 2: and then when World War One came around, he enlisted

723
00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:37,600
Speaker 2: and they say, we need everybody we can get, come

724
00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,640
Speaker 2: on in, and even Hilt right, yeah, yeah, even Hilter.

725
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:44,399
Speaker 2: Hilter did this army thing.

726
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 1: Right.

727
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 2: So when he rose to power in Germany, one of

728
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:51,360
Speaker 2: the things he did was he had his works collected

729
00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 2: and destroyed. I'm not exactly sure what the thinking was

730
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:57,839
Speaker 2: behind that, I guess because he knew it wasn't very

731
00:39:57,840 --> 00:40:01,799
Speaker 2: good and he needed to focus on his political career

732
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:05,800
Speaker 2: rather than his artistic career, or have everybody else focus

733
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:08,640
Speaker 2: on it. But to no avail, because I saw a

734
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty six critic or a critic wrote in nineteen

735
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:17,600
Speaker 2: thirty six that his style was prosaic, utterly devoid of rhythm, color, feeling,

736
00:40:18,080 --> 00:40:22,239
Speaker 2: or spiritualism. Yeah, and this was before he I'm sorry,

737
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 2: or spiritual imagination. And this was before he had really

738
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:31,279
Speaker 2: become an obvious threat. This is nineteen thirty six, So

739
00:40:31,400 --> 00:40:35,760
Speaker 2: even back then, even without hindsight, people thought his stuff

740
00:40:35,800 --> 00:40:38,799
Speaker 2: wasn't very good. So, yeah, he had his stuff destroyed,

741
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:43,120
Speaker 2: and that's it was kind of a footnote for a

742
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 2: very long time that he was an artist, and no

743
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 2: one really cared after his death.

744
00:40:47,960 --> 00:40:49,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this, and that was one of the

745
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,479
Speaker 1: major reasons that he was such an art plunderer during

746
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,960
Speaker 1: the war and stole as much art as he could

747
00:40:56,000 --> 00:41:00,160
Speaker 1: from real famous artists and famous paintings, because he had

748
00:41:00,160 --> 00:41:03,720
Speaker 1: all this backstory as a failed artist, and it was interesting.

749
00:41:03,760 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 1: I did see that like one of his major I mean,

750
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:10,920
Speaker 1: because he wasn't an utter failure at first. He had

751
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:15,359
Speaker 1: a backer early on. I think he was a Jewish Man, yeah,

752
00:41:15,400 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 1: which was really interesting, and there was I don't know, man,

753
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 1: it's there's a lot of speculation about what that all

754
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 1: meant to him, and like people try and draw parallels,

755
00:41:26,680 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 1: just like some of the paintings I saw, I mean,

756
00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: some of it feels like a stretch. Definitely, like the

757
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 1: you know, the cold the cold streets of Munich, like

758
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 1: were painted like clearly with a future cleansing in mind

759
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:43,320
Speaker 1: to make it look like this, and.

760
00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:44,240
Speaker 2: That's a stretch.

761
00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, some of that stuff seems like a stretch. But

762
00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,800
Speaker 1: you could definitely read into the backstory, at least I

763
00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 1: think with some accuracy.

764
00:41:51,640 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, And even if like you can't necessarily suss out

765
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 2: like the future from from his paintings, you can make

766
00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:03,680
Speaker 2: a pretty strong case that his artistic ambitions being utterly crushed, Yeah,

767
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 2: had some sort of driving force or impact on a

768
00:42:07,440 --> 00:42:12,400
Speaker 2: psyche at the very least. Sure like that and his

769
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 2: later political career and dictatorship did not exist in a vacuum.

770
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 2: I don't think you can possibly make the case that

771
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,480
Speaker 2: they were just unrelated in any way.

772
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 1: No. I think any sociopath you can look at their

773
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: past and see the dots connected, you know. Yeah, So,

774
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 1: like you said, there was this kind of just was

775
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,400
Speaker 1: the deal for a long time, and then in like

776
00:42:34,440 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 1: anything else, like people wanting to get original Charles Manson

777
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 1: music reels, in the early late nineties early two thousands,

778
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 1: there was a market for Hitler's work. I think in

779
00:42:46,040 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 1: two thousand and nine a British auction house someone paid

780
00:42:49,680 --> 00:42:52,919
Speaker 1: one hundred and fifty grand for fifteen early sketches and watercolors,

781
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: including a self portrait, And then in twenty fifteen some

782
00:42:57,239 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: unnamed investors paid four hundred and fifty one thousand dollars

783
00:43:01,120 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 1: for a set of watercolors. I think there were twelve

784
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 1: or thirteen yeah, that survived.

785
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. The problem is is because he didn't have a

786
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 2: style of his own that he was copying postcards that

787
00:43:13,840 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 2: he didn't have any formal training and that he was

788
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 2: he lacked like a lot of creativity or any creativity.

789
00:43:21,600 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 2: It seems like it's really hard to say this is

790
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:28,480
Speaker 2: a Hitler and this is a fake. And there's been

791
00:43:28,800 --> 00:43:34,880
Speaker 2: developed a really, really enormous market of fakes because anybody

792
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:40,160
Speaker 2: who's like a passingly good artist in watercolors of street

793
00:43:40,160 --> 00:43:42,840
Speaker 2: scapes and landscapes could drum up something and be like,

794
00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:45,600
Speaker 2: this is a Hitler and it would be really difficult

795
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 2: to say yes it is or no it's not.

796
00:43:48,239 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, what kind of a garbage human do you have

797
00:43:50,239 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: to be to think I'll do Hitler forgeries and try

798
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:58,160
Speaker 1: and sell them to garbage humans that want to collect them.

799
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. And it's not like the you're even fetching like

800
00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:04,000
Speaker 2: ten million dollars apiece. We're talking like you might get

801
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:09,520
Speaker 2: ten thousand dollars for it for your your Hitler forgery.

802
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 1: Unbelievable, but totally believable.

803
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 2: So that's the mystery of the Hitler paintings. Did he

804
00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:15,960
Speaker 2: do this?

805
00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:19,760
Speaker 1: Yeah? Did he do those paintings?

806
00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 2: You got anything else?

807
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,160
Speaker 1: I got nothing else? That was a good five. I

808
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 1: think we have committed to doing a robust episode on

809
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 1: the Gardner Museum heist, because that's a good one and

810
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:34,879
Speaker 1: that was on this list and way underplayed.

811
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 2: For sure, So keep an ear out for that, everybody.

812
00:44:38,400 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 2: And since I said keep an ear out for that,

813
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 2: think it's time for listener mail. Yeah. I'm gonna call this.

814
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:52,600
Speaker 1: Middle names because we had a little discussion in our

815
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:56,160
Speaker 1: John Mure episode about how Emily and I and our

816
00:44:56,200 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: friends justin Melissa one night, we're going by our middle

817
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 1: names as a joke, and I had the theory that

818
00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 1: you have no emotional connection to your middle name if

819
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 1: you don't have a reaction when you hear it. Set

820
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:09,279
Speaker 1: out loud and I just meant sort of the non

821
00:45:10,000 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 1: dominant name. It didn't necessarily mean middle names, because my

822
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,399
Speaker 1: brother goes by his middle name, Scott is his middle name,

823
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:19,160
Speaker 1: and some people do that. It's a thing, and certainly

824
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 1: Amy does. She said, I was listening to the show

825
00:45:21,719 --> 00:45:23,520
Speaker 1: and at the end you were chatting about using middle

826
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:25,839
Speaker 1: names and how you don't have an emotional connection when

827
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 1: you hear it. I have an interesting situation that everyone

828
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,600
Speaker 1: everyone in my family uses their middle names. So I've

829
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 1: always been called Amy ever since I was born, but

830
00:45:34,719 --> 00:45:37,880
Speaker 1: my first name is Helen. This causes an interesting situation

831
00:45:37,920 --> 00:45:40,560
Speaker 1: at airports and doctor's appointments where they refer to me

832
00:45:40,600 --> 00:45:42,919
Speaker 1: as Helen, and I always have to remember that they're

833
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 1: talking to me. A big fan of the show, kept

834
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: me curious and my curious spirits satisfied over the last

835
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:50,520
Speaker 1: three or four years, and it's such a comfort knowing

836
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:53,600
Speaker 1: there's always another episode to listen to. Best wishes from

837
00:45:53,640 --> 00:45:57,839
Speaker 1: the UK. They're always so nice and that is sure, Amy, Helen.

838
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 2: Amy, Thanks Helen, Amy. We'll just call her Amy as

839
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 2: is customary.

840
00:46:03,840 --> 00:46:05,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, because we say Helen, She's like, who.

841
00:46:07,080 --> 00:46:09,520
Speaker 2: Wow. I can't wait until they read my listener mail,

842
00:46:09,600 --> 00:46:13,120
Speaker 2: says Amy. If you want to be like Amy and

843
00:46:13,160 --> 00:46:15,919
Speaker 2: get in touch with us for whatever reason, you can

844
00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:23,920
Speaker 2: send us an email to Stuff podcast at iHeartRadio dot com.

845
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

846
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:31,239
Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

847
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:33,240
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.