1
00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:06,760
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, the production of iHeartRadio.

2
00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:14,760
Speaker 2: Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My

3
00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:16,120
Speaker 2: name is Robert Lamb.

4
00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:18,760
Speaker 3: And I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part two

5
00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:22,640
Speaker 3: in our series on fishes of gold the orange, yellow,

6
00:00:22,680 --> 00:00:26,480
Speaker 3: and golden colored fishes in the carp family, such as

7
00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,280
Speaker 3: the goldfish and its close relative the Crucian carp, and

8
00:00:30,400 --> 00:00:34,720
Speaker 3: the varieties of cultivated carp known as coy fish. In

9
00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,839
Speaker 3: the previous episode, we talked about the carp family and

10
00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:42,519
Speaker 3: its historical role in human aquaculture, about how orange, gold,

11
00:00:42,600 --> 00:00:47,520
Speaker 3: and yellow colors of goldfish today are mostly a result

12
00:00:47,640 --> 00:00:50,960
Speaker 3: of artificial selection by humans that goes back more than

13
00:00:51,000 --> 00:00:54,640
Speaker 3: a thousand years in China, and we also talked about

14
00:00:54,640 --> 00:00:58,440
Speaker 3: how despite the fact that the color of the goldfish

15
00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,920
Speaker 3: is a mostly human selected trait, there are some reasons

16
00:01:02,960 --> 00:01:07,000
Speaker 3: that animals in nature develop bright orange and yellow colors,

17
00:01:07,000 --> 00:01:12,240
Speaker 3: including some cases of intra species communication like signaling of

18
00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:16,920
Speaker 3: reproductive fitness or just self recognition within a species, as

19
00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:21,080
Speaker 3: well as inter species communication like signaling to predators that

20
00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:24,959
Speaker 3: you are toxic or bad tasting, or somehow unpalatable, and

21
00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:26,880
Speaker 3: this is known as appo semitism.

22
00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, and some animals are just garish and tacky. What

23
00:01:30,240 --> 00:01:31,360
Speaker 2: can you say? There you go.

24
00:01:31,840 --> 00:01:36,400
Speaker 3: We also talked about how goldfish are actually able to chew,

25
00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,039
Speaker 3: even though if you look at their mouths they have

26
00:01:39,120 --> 00:01:44,520
Speaker 3: quite smooth, smooth looking, soft toothless jaws. The short version

27
00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:47,840
Speaker 3: of the story is that goldfish, along with other fish

28
00:01:47,880 --> 00:01:51,680
Speaker 3: in the carp family, have a grinding chewing mechanism known

29
00:01:51,760 --> 00:01:55,160
Speaker 3: as phrynge old teeth at the back of their throats,

30
00:01:55,280 --> 00:01:59,280
Speaker 3: and occasionally these throat teeth fall out for aquarium keepers

31
00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,280
Speaker 3: to find, which be a fun surprise. You think your

32
00:02:02,320 --> 00:02:04,680
Speaker 3: fish is toothless, you discover it's not. It's just that

33
00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:08,840
Speaker 3: it's teeth or in its throat. We talked about the

34
00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:13,880
Speaker 3: historical association of goldfish with royalty in China, and finally

35
00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:17,760
Speaker 3: we talked about an interesting adaptation in goldfish and other

36
00:02:17,880 --> 00:02:21,280
Speaker 3: close relatives like the Krucian carp that allows them to

37
00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:26,320
Speaker 3: survive extended periods of time in oxygen deprived waters that

38
00:02:26,360 --> 00:02:31,320
Speaker 3: would suffocate many other vertebrates. And the adaptation is actually

39
00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:35,600
Speaker 3: that they are able to ferment alcohol in their bodies

40
00:02:35,960 --> 00:02:38,600
Speaker 3: and then purge it out through the gills. They do

41
00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:41,799
Speaker 3: this as an alternative to the other normal end product

42
00:02:41,960 --> 00:02:47,320
Speaker 3: of anaerobic respiration, which is lactic acid. So producing alcohol

43
00:02:47,400 --> 00:02:49,520
Speaker 3: instead and then being able to easily purge it from

44
00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:52,640
Speaker 3: the gills helps the fish avoid the deadly state of

45
00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:58,560
Speaker 3: acidosis that usually comes from prolonged extreme oxygen deprivation. And

46
00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:01,160
Speaker 3: we're back today to talk about that's.

47
00:03:01,080 --> 00:03:03,640
Speaker 2: Right, and we're gonna do a little bit of a

48
00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:06,520
Speaker 2: carp ketch up here regarding some of the things we

49
00:03:06,560 --> 00:03:09,560
Speaker 2: were talking about last time. In the last episode, we

50
00:03:09,639 --> 00:03:13,679
Speaker 2: briefly discussed some carp related bits of folklore and mythology.

51
00:03:13,720 --> 00:03:15,040
Speaker 2: There's going to be a good bit more of that

52
00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:17,640
Speaker 2: in this episode. But at the top, I wanted to

53
00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:22,800
Speaker 2: confirm that, yes, the carp of the Longman of Chinese mythology,

54
00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:25,600
Speaker 2: this is we're talking about the upstream swimming carp that

55
00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:29,320
Speaker 2: leaps over a waterfall and transforms into a dragon. This

56
00:03:29,480 --> 00:03:32,560
Speaker 2: is in fact a carp. Yes, they are known in

57
00:03:32,639 --> 00:03:37,320
Speaker 2: Japan as Taruman and the Pokemon magic carp. Yes, that

58
00:03:37,360 --> 00:03:39,920
Speaker 2: we've discussed in the show before is a reference to

59
00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:44,000
Speaker 2: this transforming from its fish form into the dragon like

60
00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:48,360
Speaker 2: form of giri. Doose certainly look up images of this

61
00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:50,840
Speaker 2: if you are not one of our many listeners that

62
00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:54,880
Speaker 2: has the Pokemon data permanently installed in your cranium.

63
00:03:55,400 --> 00:03:57,480
Speaker 3: I looked this up too, Yeah, because it came up

64
00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:59,760
Speaker 3: in the last episode. We couldn't quite remember what the

65
00:04:00,040 --> 00:04:02,400
Speaker 3: tail was, but we remember there was something about a

66
00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:06,320
Speaker 3: Chinese myth of a fish swimming upstream or jumping over

67
00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,760
Speaker 3: a waterfall and then becoming a dragon, and we were wondering,

68
00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,040
Speaker 3: is that a carp. It absolutely is a carp. Yeah,

69
00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,000
Speaker 3: so you're right there. Based on what I was reading

70
00:04:14,040 --> 00:04:18,680
Speaker 3: this time, the term long amen it actually means dragon gate.

71
00:04:19,279 --> 00:04:23,760
Speaker 3: And this is historically understood to be a waterfall, or

72
00:04:23,800 --> 00:04:27,040
Speaker 3: maybe not literally a waterfall, maybe more like a steep

73
00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:31,520
Speaker 3: rapid where the Yellow River passes through a gorge, so

74
00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,800
Speaker 3: it's kind of a narrow passageway with strong currents. Allegedly,

75
00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,960
Speaker 3: this path of the river was opened by You the Great,

76
00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,280
Speaker 3: the legendary king who tamed the flood. So the idea

77
00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,719
Speaker 3: is that if a common fish, generally a carp, can

78
00:04:45,839 --> 00:04:49,640
Speaker 3: swim upstream against the strong current of the dragon gate

79
00:04:50,120 --> 00:04:53,480
Speaker 3: or can leap over the falls, it will transform into

80
00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,880
Speaker 3: a dragon, as you said, and a dragon comes with

81
00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:03,200
Speaker 3: strong connotations ritual connotations in Chinese culture, it is it

82
00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:08,479
Speaker 3: is a powerful, majestic being, and the carp is typically

83
00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,760
Speaker 3: the fish named here because the carp itself, even before

84
00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:18,599
Speaker 3: any transformation takes place, is commonly associated with courage, perseverance,

85
00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:22,520
Speaker 3: and hard work in China. And there's an important human

86
00:05:22,720 --> 00:05:26,839
Speaker 3: interpretation or element added on to this, which is that

87
00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:31,000
Speaker 3: the idea of leaping the dragon gate is also a

88
00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:35,680
Speaker 3: standard metaphor for success in like great tests and trials,

89
00:05:36,080 --> 00:05:39,960
Speaker 3: often in scholastic and academic success. So I think it

90
00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:42,719
Speaker 3: can be applied more generally that from what I was reading,

91
00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:46,240
Speaker 3: it is most often applied to like academic success or

92
00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,960
Speaker 3: like passing a test. And in history this was strongly

93
00:05:50,040 --> 00:05:52,719
Speaker 3: linked with the efforts of young men to pass the

94
00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:58,280
Speaker 3: imperial examinations, which were the primary path to social mobility

95
00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:01,600
Speaker 3: historically across you know, many many years in China. So

96
00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:03,880
Speaker 3: you work hard, you excel at the test, and you

97
00:06:03,960 --> 00:06:07,720
Speaker 3: will leap the gate and transform into a more elevated existence.

98
00:06:08,640 --> 00:06:10,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, I was reading about this as well. And

99
00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:13,599
Speaker 2: so outside of these cultures it may come as a

100
00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:17,440
Speaker 2: surprise that a carp what many of us would you

101
00:06:17,440 --> 00:06:20,640
Speaker 2: know outside of say Japanese and Chinese cultures and related

102
00:06:20,680 --> 00:06:22,520
Speaker 2: traditions might just think of as oh, that's just a

103
00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:26,480
Speaker 2: normal fish, maybe not even an exciting fish. But there

104
00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,200
Speaker 2: is a great deal of power there. There's a great

105
00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:33,400
Speaker 2: deal of important symbolic power within these traditions.

106
00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:37,159
Speaker 3: Last time, we were talking about whether we should think

107
00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:40,680
Speaker 3: of the carp as exceptional or as not exceptional, and

108
00:06:40,720 --> 00:06:43,800
Speaker 3: it's really kind of both. It is exceptional in that

109
00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:46,760
Speaker 3: they are these very interesting things about it, but it

110
00:06:46,800 --> 00:06:51,640
Speaker 3: is also from a different perspective, the most normal of fish.

111
00:06:51,920 --> 00:06:55,760
Speaker 3: They're almost like your standard freshwater fish. They're about as

112
00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,240
Speaker 3: regular as it comes, even though they are remarkable in

113
00:06:58,240 --> 00:06:58,920
Speaker 3: so many ways.

114
00:06:59,640 --> 00:07:02,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm gonna skip ahead just for a second here.

115
00:07:02,200 --> 00:07:03,760
Speaker 2: I'm gonna come back and talk about them in more

116
00:07:03,800 --> 00:07:08,440
Speaker 2: detail later. But the Japanese ningyo, which is like a

117
00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,360
Speaker 2: it's often thought of as a Japanese mermaid when people

118
00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,880
Speaker 2: are applying you know, Western motifs to uh to to

119
00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:21,200
Speaker 2: other traditions half human, half fish, but the fish part

120
00:07:21,240 --> 00:07:24,000
Speaker 2: is often said to be that of the fish parts

121
00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:27,080
Speaker 2: of a carp. And I found this particularly interesting because

122
00:07:27,080 --> 00:07:30,000
Speaker 2: you know, you think of Japan, you know island nation,

123
00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:34,040
Speaker 2: you know a great deal of marine diversity that is

124
00:07:34,320 --> 00:07:38,120
Speaker 2: that is also traditionally you know, harvest and enjoyed for food.

125
00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,440
Speaker 2: And yet it is the carp that is the fish

126
00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:45,240
Speaker 2: that is drawn upon for this hybrid creature that has

127
00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:47,640
Speaker 2: you know, all these additional magical properties that I'll get

128
00:07:47,680 --> 00:07:51,040
Speaker 2: into later. You know, it's it's telling because the carp

129
00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:55,440
Speaker 2: is important, but also the carp is ubiquitous, like everyone

130
00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:58,240
Speaker 2: would have some familiarity with the carp. Uh, And so

131
00:07:58,600 --> 00:08:02,040
Speaker 2: it takes on this this interesting air. We're on one level,

132
00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:06,280
Speaker 2: it is mundane, it is every day, but then it's

133
00:08:06,320 --> 00:08:12,080
Speaker 2: also it's also beautiful. But also by being close at hand,

134
00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:14,360
Speaker 2: by being the familiar thing that we spend a lot

135
00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:17,360
Speaker 2: of time with, it is the thing we see ourselves

136
00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:21,040
Speaker 2: in more and it is more readily available for these

137
00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:22,840
Speaker 2: various symbolic meanings we apply.

138
00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:27,320
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, that's interesting. It speaks to another tension in

139
00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:31,920
Speaker 3: what kinds of animals would you expect to just be.

140
00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:32,920
Speaker 2: On our minds?

141
00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:35,640
Speaker 3: And in one sense, you could think of the most

142
00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:39,640
Speaker 3: exceptional animals, maybe the scariest ones, the most dangerous ones,

143
00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,880
Speaker 3: the biggest ones, the ones that if you see them once,

144
00:08:42,920 --> 00:08:45,280
Speaker 3: you will remember them forever. On the other hand, you

145
00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:47,680
Speaker 3: could think of. It's the animals that we encounter the

146
00:08:47,679 --> 00:08:49,400
Speaker 3: most often, that we see every day.

147
00:08:49,800 --> 00:08:52,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and in seeing them every day, we'll occasionally

148
00:08:52,360 --> 00:08:54,080
Speaker 2: see them in a new way and see them with

149
00:08:54,080 --> 00:08:57,280
Speaker 2: a new eye. Yeah. Oh. One other thing I wanted

150
00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,840
Speaker 2: to mention is in a reference than nineteen seventy nine

151
00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:03,960
Speaker 2: Japanese film Demon Pond, which we discussed on our Weird

152
00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,480
Speaker 2: House Cinema episodes in recent months. There is a character

153
00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,320
Speaker 2: in there who is Carp, and he is a carp

154
00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,720
Speaker 2: though if memory serves, basically, he's just wearing a bunch

155
00:09:15,720 --> 00:09:18,760
Speaker 2: of like you know, dark paint on his body and

156
00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:20,359
Speaker 2: is kind of like greasy looking.

157
00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:22,280
Speaker 3: Barbles.

158
00:09:22,360 --> 00:09:25,040
Speaker 2: Right. Well, there's the there. Well, there are a couple

159
00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:26,959
Speaker 2: of different fish people, and I think maybe he's like

160
00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:29,559
Speaker 2: a catfish monk, the guy with the barbles. I think

161
00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:31,000
Speaker 2: the other guy is Carp.

162
00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm mixing up two characters.

163
00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:34,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. And then there's Crab of course.

164
00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:38,360
Speaker 3: Right now, Carp is the first guy who's hanging out

165
00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:40,360
Speaker 3: with Crab, and then they meet the catfish priest.

166
00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:44,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. All right, Well, let's uh, let's talk a little

167
00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:46,680
Speaker 2: bit first. I want to talk a little bit about

168
00:09:46,800 --> 00:09:49,600
Speaker 2: about the koi as we touched on in the last episode.

169
00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,760
Speaker 2: The history of koi lines up with the history of

170
00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:57,160
Speaker 2: goldfish in some key ways. So they're both selectively bred

171
00:09:57,440 --> 00:10:02,400
Speaker 2: ornamental varieties of wild carp species, and they both have

172
00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:07,440
Speaker 2: a lot to do with the with both aquaculture and agriculture,

173
00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:11,320
Speaker 2: specifically as far as rice farming is concerned, so you'll

174
00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:15,160
Speaker 2: have like flooded rice patties the perfect place for karp

175
00:10:15,240 --> 00:10:18,640
Speaker 2: to also be bred, and of course both produce a

176
00:10:18,640 --> 00:10:21,880
Speaker 2: food product that becomes vitally important to the people who grow,

177
00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:26,440
Speaker 2: slash raise the species in question. But while the modern

178
00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,839
Speaker 2: goldfish is again the product of one thousand years of

179
00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:34,080
Speaker 2: artificial selection, koi date backed only to nineteenth century Japan.

180
00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:37,640
Speaker 2: But like the goldfish, they have spread all over the world,

181
00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:41,720
Speaker 2: like you know, I've seen I've seen koi in you know,

182
00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:45,680
Speaker 2: in China. I've seen koi in Nashville, Tennessee. Like you know,

183
00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:50,080
Speaker 2: they're everywhere. Listeners out there, you may have koi just

184
00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:54,640
Speaker 2: outside your house, in your own pod. So this still

185
00:10:54,720 --> 00:10:57,840
Speaker 2: even with a much shorter time frame here, it still

186
00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:02,280
Speaker 2: results in multiple varieties of koi. But as Nick Fletcher

187
00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:04,600
Speaker 2: points out in the book The Ultimate Koi, which is

188
00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:07,520
Speaker 2: just an insightful book with a lot of stuff I

189
00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:11,720
Speaker 2: think geared towards people who are more intimately involved in koi,

190
00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:15,200
Speaker 2: like raising koi, but it also has some great overview material.

191
00:11:16,559 --> 00:11:18,959
Speaker 2: He points out that it means that, quote, their body

192
00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:21,920
Speaker 2: structure and the way they respond to their environment are

193
00:11:21,960 --> 00:11:25,920
Speaker 2: fundamentally the same as those of their wild ancestors. Any

194
00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:29,200
Speaker 2: differences are superficial, and the colors and patterns of skin

195
00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:33,960
Speaker 2: pigment belie an internal uniformity much more consistent than that

196
00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:35,600
Speaker 2: of their cousin, the goldfish.

197
00:11:36,120 --> 00:11:38,959
Speaker 3: Oh okay, So is this saying that the goldfish is

198
00:11:39,000 --> 00:11:43,960
Speaker 3: selective breeding has actually really altered the organism in more

199
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:47,240
Speaker 3: profound ways than the selective breeding of the koi.

200
00:11:47,720 --> 00:11:49,680
Speaker 2: Yes, and it just has to do with just the again,

201
00:11:50,440 --> 00:11:52,960
Speaker 2: the fact that the koi is just a much more

202
00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:57,320
Speaker 2: recent development. We're only going back, you know, something like

203
00:11:57,320 --> 00:12:03,280
Speaker 2: a century in terms of devoted selective breeding. Now Here

204
00:12:03,360 --> 00:12:06,560
Speaker 2: is a perhaps less obvious question regarding all of this.

205
00:12:06,920 --> 00:12:09,920
Speaker 2: How did freshwater carp get to Japan? To begin with?

206
00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,600
Speaker 2: The short answer is that they were introduced from mainland

207
00:12:13,760 --> 00:12:17,600
Speaker 2: Asia as far back as prehistoric times by human beings,

208
00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:21,840
Speaker 2: and this has long been the prime explanation, with the

209
00:12:22,080 --> 00:12:25,360
Speaker 2: Yayoi people in particular being the ones that brought over

210
00:12:25,480 --> 00:12:30,160
Speaker 2: agriculture and aquaculture in the form of raising carp in

211
00:12:30,200 --> 00:12:33,320
Speaker 2: flooded rice patties, brought it over from mainland Asia, and

212
00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,880
Speaker 2: we're talking about this happening perhaps somewhere between three hundred

213
00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:41,280
Speaker 2: BCE and three hundred CE. However, it gets a little

214
00:12:41,320 --> 00:12:44,800
Speaker 2: more complicated than that, because apparently genetic strains of much

215
00:12:44,840 --> 00:12:50,480
Speaker 2: older carp have been determined. A genetically distinct wild lineage

216
00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:55,160
Speaker 2: of carp associated with Japan's largest lake, Lake Biwa, which

217
00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:57,840
Speaker 2: in this particular strain would seem to go back millions

218
00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:00,520
Speaker 2: of years and predate the arrival of humans on the

219
00:13:00,600 --> 00:13:05,839
Speaker 2: Japanese islands. So, depending on the exact genetic strain, Japanese

220
00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:09,120
Speaker 2: common carp can be considered both a native, prehistoric resident

221
00:13:09,360 --> 00:13:13,280
Speaker 2: and an ancient introduced species. Okay, anyway you cut it, though,

222
00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:15,880
Speaker 2: carp have been in Japan for a long time. People

223
00:13:15,880 --> 00:13:20,200
Speaker 2: there have been utilizing carp, and they were doing so

224
00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:24,120
Speaker 2: far before goldfish were introduced, which I dated in the

225
00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:26,800
Speaker 2: last episode of the seventeenth century, but it may have

226
00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:29,240
Speaker 2: been the sixteenth century depending on the source I've seen

227
00:13:29,280 --> 00:13:34,200
Speaker 2: both Now, despite the Koy's nineteenth century origins, there were

228
00:13:34,440 --> 00:13:38,880
Speaker 2: colorful common carp in Japan and in China for many centuries,

229
00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:43,160
Speaker 2: with accounts going back into the first millennium Sea. However,

230
00:13:43,280 --> 00:13:47,600
Speaker 2: these were seemingly the product of natural mutation in aquaculture

231
00:13:47,720 --> 00:13:53,760
Speaker 2: rather than targeted artificial selection by human breeders. Systematic breeding

232
00:13:53,880 --> 00:14:00,360
Speaker 2: of the amor carp that's cyprinous robru fuscus, or or

233
00:14:00,640 --> 00:14:04,800
Speaker 2: of the common carp which is a Suprnus carpio did

234
00:14:04,840 --> 00:14:08,000
Speaker 2: not begin in Japan till around eighteen twenty, and in

235
00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:12,040
Speaker 2: particular this would be the Nijumarago region of northeast of

236
00:14:12,080 --> 00:14:16,760
Speaker 2: the northeastern coast of Honshu, the largest of the Japanese islands. Now,

237
00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,640
Speaker 2: we didn't have time to get into this with goldfish

238
00:14:19,760 --> 00:14:22,600
Speaker 2: last time, but one of the really curious things about

239
00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:26,880
Speaker 2: their adaptability, which has long been exploited by selective breeders,

240
00:14:27,480 --> 00:14:31,800
Speaker 2: is that they exhibit significant morphological plasticity in response to

241
00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:34,360
Speaker 2: water depth and water flow.

242
00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,680
Speaker 3: Okay, so they can relatively easily change their body shape

243
00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:43,080
Speaker 3: or body size depending on their environment, like how deep

244
00:14:43,120 --> 00:14:46,920
Speaker 3: the water is or other dimensional characteristics of the body

245
00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:47,240
Speaker 3: of water.

246
00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:53,239
Speaker 2: They inhabit correct. Yes, so shallow, low flow water environments,

247
00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:57,320
Speaker 2: these encourage more compact body shape, and this is thought

248
00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,160
Speaker 2: to be because they don't need to swim as much

249
00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:02,560
Speaker 2: and can therefore invest in a shorter, stockier body, and

250
00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:08,720
Speaker 2: then high flow environments favor slender, streamlined bodies. Now it

251
00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:11,600
Speaker 2: makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So not to imply that

252
00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:15,520
Speaker 2: they're just like T one thousands, like just rapidly changing around,

253
00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:19,480
Speaker 2: but still as far as you know, organism morphology goes

254
00:15:19,760 --> 00:15:20,640
Speaker 2: still pretty rapid.

255
00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:23,040
Speaker 3: Well, it kind of reminds me of research we've talked

256
00:15:23,040 --> 00:15:27,480
Speaker 3: about on the show before, positing that like when you

257
00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:32,000
Speaker 3: go deeper in the ocean, there's more evolutionary experimentation with

258
00:15:32,160 --> 00:15:35,240
Speaker 3: fish body shapes, and so you get more kind of

259
00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:39,720
Speaker 3: more experiments with like weird compact or you know, squat

260
00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:43,920
Speaker 3: types of body shapes or or extremely elongated ones, whereas

261
00:15:43,960 --> 00:15:46,440
Speaker 3: when you go closer to the surface, where there is

262
00:15:47,160 --> 00:15:52,040
Speaker 3: there's more dealing with current or more just pressure on

263
00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,360
Speaker 3: fish to be fast in order to escape predators or

264
00:15:55,360 --> 00:15:57,920
Speaker 3: to hunt, there is more of a pressure kind of

265
00:15:58,120 --> 00:16:01,560
Speaker 3: pushing fish towards this standard streamlined body shape that you

266
00:16:01,880 --> 00:16:04,280
Speaker 3: see in a lot of oceanic fish right.

267
00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:06,480
Speaker 2: Right, And then with the goldfish, like this is something

268
00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,160
Speaker 2: that has been exploited to try and favor, Like you

269
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:12,480
Speaker 2: want a nice slender fish, okay, go in this direction.

270
00:16:12,600 --> 00:16:15,120
Speaker 2: But if you want a chonker, if you want a

271
00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:18,360
Speaker 2: nice squat fish, then this then this is what you

272
00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:21,920
Speaker 2: need to do with its environment. Now I want to say,

273
00:16:21,920 --> 00:16:23,320
Speaker 2: I think this is a good time to mention this.

274
00:16:24,800 --> 00:16:28,840
Speaker 2: We're talking about you know about goldfish in particular, getting

275
00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,400
Speaker 2: you know, their body shape changing depending on what sort

276
00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:34,400
Speaker 2: of environment you're in, and we should not let these

277
00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,920
Speaker 2: tantalizing facts accidentally feed the myth that a goldfish grows

278
00:16:38,960 --> 00:16:41,320
Speaker 2: in accordance to the size of their bowl or tank.

279
00:16:42,160 --> 00:16:45,240
Speaker 2: Goldfish grow throughout their life no matter the size of

280
00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:49,280
Speaker 2: the habitat, and as is the case with a lot

281
00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:54,280
Speaker 2: of organisms, if they're growing larger in a very small environment,

282
00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:56,120
Speaker 2: it is going to be uncomfortable for them in a

283
00:16:56,200 --> 00:17:00,680
Speaker 2: number of ways. In general, I would say, and I'm

284
00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:04,320
Speaker 2: saying this not as someone who keeps fish, so certainly

285
00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:06,560
Speaker 2: those of you who are the keepers of fish out

286
00:17:06,600 --> 00:17:09,480
Speaker 2: there may have additional data to share on this, but

287
00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,560
Speaker 2: in general, disregard any myth you hear that centers around

288
00:17:12,600 --> 00:17:15,800
Speaker 2: the idea that a goldfish doesn't require a proper, well

289
00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:19,920
Speaker 2: maintained environment, because, yes, as we discussed in the last episode,

290
00:17:19,920 --> 00:17:23,560
Speaker 2: they can handle some pretty rough conditions, but that doesn't

291
00:17:23,560 --> 00:17:26,920
Speaker 2: mean they're having a good time or that they are impervious.

292
00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,680
Speaker 3: Right right, I mean, just the fact that they can

293
00:17:29,920 --> 00:17:33,679
Speaker 3: survive some conditions that will kill other fish, that doesn't

294
00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:35,200
Speaker 3: necessarily mean it's good for them.

295
00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:37,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, like you know, you can sleep in a

296
00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:39,680
Speaker 2: really dirty bet, but that doesn't mean you should or

297
00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,639
Speaker 2: path to Noah, that sort of thing. Now, part of

298
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:47,840
Speaker 2: this myth seems to stem as well from historic misunderstandings

299
00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:53,919
Speaker 2: of traditional Song dynasty goldfish presentation rituals that entailed placing

300
00:17:54,119 --> 00:17:58,160
Speaker 2: a particularly beautiful goldfish in a say, a small shallow

301
00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:03,159
Speaker 2: display bowl or some sort of jar for temporary display,

302
00:18:03,680 --> 00:18:05,960
Speaker 2: and then after you were done, you would return them

303
00:18:05,960 --> 00:18:09,320
Speaker 2: to the larger pool or pools that the fish lives in.

304
00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:15,119
Speaker 2: Victorians popularize the use of globular goldfish bowls for displaying

305
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:17,720
Speaker 2: the fish, and you know, a lot of this just

306
00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,440
Speaker 2: is kind of a misreading of what the Chinese were

307
00:18:20,480 --> 00:18:22,840
Speaker 2: doing with the fish. It was like, oh, that's all

308
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:24,640
Speaker 2: they need, you can just keep them in a little glass,

309
00:18:24,880 --> 00:18:27,520
Speaker 2: a little bowl, and they're good to go. That is,

310
00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:29,880
Speaker 2: it's not really the case. It's a lot more complicated.

311
00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:34,359
Speaker 2: They need proper care, as any fish does.

312
00:18:35,240 --> 00:18:39,240
Speaker 3: It's almost like if you tried to make Olympic athletes

313
00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,800
Speaker 3: live on the like three steps with the first, second,

314
00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:42,480
Speaker 3: and third place.

315
00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:48,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, Like this is just a temporary display situation. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway,

316
00:18:48,840 --> 00:18:52,280
Speaker 2: this also connects to the koi though, because the same

317
00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,640
Speaker 2: basic principles apply to these carp as well. Faster moving

318
00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:59,240
Speaker 2: waters lead to slimmer carp, while slow moving shallows lead

319
00:18:59,280 --> 00:19:12,320
Speaker 2: to chonkier carp. Now, I have to admit one of

320
00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:16,920
Speaker 2: the things that drew me into selecting this for our

321
00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:18,959
Speaker 2: discussion this week, As you know, I was looking at

322
00:19:19,000 --> 00:19:21,720
Speaker 2: some biological features that were kind of you know, provided

323
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:25,520
Speaker 2: an overview of different fish, and I read something in

324
00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:29,840
Speaker 2: passing about koi living a long time and to be clear,

325
00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:31,840
Speaker 2: and then we'll get back to more examples of this.

326
00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,960
Speaker 2: Koi and carp in general are sometimes associated with longevity

327
00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:42,160
Speaker 2: in a magical sense, in a symbolic sense, but when

328
00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:46,119
Speaker 2: you dive into the subject of long lived individual koi,

329
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:50,480
Speaker 2: the results are are not all that convincing. In general,

330
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,520
Speaker 2: the life expectancy of a koi tends to be around

331
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,560
Speaker 2: twenty five to fifty years, somewhere in that range depending

332
00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,639
Speaker 2: on how they're cared for and just roll of the dice.

333
00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:04,600
Speaker 2: But there are accounts of much much older koi, with

334
00:20:04,680 --> 00:20:09,720
Speaker 2: the alleged superstar being one Hanako, a red karp koi

335
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:14,719
Speaker 2: last own by doctor Komei Koshihara and said to have

336
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:18,199
Speaker 2: died in nineteen seventy seven. This is the fish at

337
00:20:18,240 --> 00:20:20,280
Speaker 2: the ripe old age of two hundred and twenty six

338
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:24,560
Speaker 2: years old. If true, this would mean that fish was

339
00:20:24,600 --> 00:20:28,639
Speaker 2: born during the Edo period, a fish of the Togagawa Shogunate. So,

340
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,000
Speaker 2: you know, a pretty impressive lifespan for a fish, and

341
00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:35,400
Speaker 2: one that you know kind of is you know, stirs

342
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,119
Speaker 2: the imagination to think about how long this fish has

343
00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:39,440
Speaker 2: been going around doing its thing.

344
00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, but was there like continuous documentation of the life

345
00:20:43,920 --> 00:20:46,000
Speaker 3: of this one fish or is it just a later

346
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,679
Speaker 3: person saying, yeah, this fish has been alive for hundreds

347
00:20:48,680 --> 00:20:49,159
Speaker 3: of years.

348
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:52,639
Speaker 2: Basically, it seems to be the latter unfortunately, and to

349
00:20:52,680 --> 00:20:56,040
Speaker 2: be clear, it does sound like like this man and

350
00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,920
Speaker 2: his fish did have a very special relationship he loved

351
00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,960
Speaker 2: this fish, and there were a lot of ideas associated

352
00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:03,919
Speaker 2: with this fish, and there was this idea that the

353
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:08,640
Speaker 2: fish had been passed down through the family and then

354
00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:11,480
Speaker 2: also sound it's also been attributed to this fish displayed

355
00:21:11,480 --> 00:21:13,480
Speaker 2: a unique personality. It would like come up and look

356
00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:18,359
Speaker 2: at you and stuff. But the additional story that is

357
00:21:18,359 --> 00:21:22,080
Speaker 2: attached to this scientists use scale dating to determine that

358
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,880
Speaker 2: it was more than two centuries old. This has generally

359
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 2: been met with at the very least healthy skepticism for

360
00:21:29,359 --> 00:21:31,920
Speaker 2: snopes dot com fans out there, they have an article

361
00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,720
Speaker 2: on the topic and they point out that there just

362
00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:37,280
Speaker 2: doesn't seem to be any way to really fact check

363
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:42,520
Speaker 2: this again likely legend, like there's no you know, there's

364
00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:47,119
Speaker 2: no apparent peer reviewed or scientific journal information about this

365
00:21:47,720 --> 00:21:51,840
Speaker 2: fish or the alleged dating of its scales. And then

366
00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,800
Speaker 2: also scale dating in and of itself is apparently not

367
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 2: the most accurate way to determine fish age. I believe

368
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:02,359
Speaker 2: my understanding is that scale based dating is good if

369
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:04,800
Speaker 2: you have a live fish and you don't want to

370
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,359
Speaker 2: hurt the fish, But if the fish is dead, you

371
00:22:07,400 --> 00:22:11,960
Speaker 2: can do a lot more specific testing based on its remains,

372
00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:19,120
Speaker 2: and so Yeah, some combination here of inaccurate readings, legend making,

373
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:23,000
Speaker 2: and maybe some some shoddy record keeping, you know, But

374
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:24,800
Speaker 2: I don't know. I think you can probably attribute most

375
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 2: of this to legend that is tying in with traditional

376
00:22:28,080 --> 00:22:31,520
Speaker 2: ideas about koi and about carb Yeah.

377
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 3: I would also have to think that you would be

378
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,840
Speaker 3: informed in this by considering how old is the claimed

379
00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,639
Speaker 3: age of this fish compared to the oldest age of

380
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:44,880
Speaker 3: the same species that we can verify. You know, if

381
00:22:44,880 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 3: it's like a little bit older than the otherwise the

382
00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:52,080
Speaker 3: best known record holder, then you know, you'd be more

383
00:22:52,119 --> 00:22:54,239
Speaker 3: open minded about it. If it's like this seems like

384
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,439
Speaker 3: this is maybe I don't know, more than double or

385
00:22:56,480 --> 00:23:00,000
Speaker 3: three times the age of that anybody's ever really verified

386
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 3: for these species.

387
00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's my understanding as well. And you know

388
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 2: it's you know, not to say that fish can't live

389
00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:07,719
Speaker 2: for a very long time, you know. I think, as

390
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:09,360
Speaker 2: we've discussed in the show before, we have some real

391
00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:11,560
Speaker 2: Sioux superstars out there in the fish world when it

392
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:16,240
Speaker 2: comes to living for centuries. But it does not seem

393
00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 2: to be the case that that the carp specifically the koi,

394
00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:25,399
Speaker 2: is capable of this. But again, we're largely dealing with

395
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:29,560
Speaker 2: dealing with the realm of legend here, and that's perfectly fine.

396
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:32,640
Speaker 2: It's as long as we considered a legend, because there

397
00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 2: are some really fabulous carp legends out there, and I

398
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 2: think that's what we're gonna basically be dealing with for

399
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:45,920
Speaker 2: the remainder of the episode here, I turned to the

400
00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:50,360
Speaker 2: pages of one of Carol Rose's encyclopedias of magical creatures

401
00:23:50,520 --> 00:23:53,280
Speaker 2: to see there was anything I was missing, and she

402
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:57,399
Speaker 2: does mention it sounds like a very related tradition from

403
00:23:57,520 --> 00:24:01,119
Speaker 2: Korean folklore of a dragon carp, a creature with the

404
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 2: head of a dragon and the tail of a carp, which,

405
00:24:03,720 --> 00:24:06,800
Speaker 2: upon being caught by a fisherman, speaks and begs for

406
00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:10,879
Speaker 2: its own life. The fisherman releases the creature and it

407
00:24:10,920 --> 00:24:12,439
Speaker 2: turns out to be the son of the dragon king.

408
00:24:12,520 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 2: So he's like, oh, you know, dodged a bullet. There

409
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,199
Speaker 2: not a lot to that one. I guess they, at

410
00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 2: least in the version that I read. There may be

411
00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 2: a more robust version of that out there, but I

412
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 2: still found it kind of amusing and plays in with

413
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:27,080
Speaker 2: some of the fishing motifs we've been talking about.

414
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:28,920
Speaker 3: Well, I would wonder what this kind of legend. Does

415
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 3: the fishermen get a boon for giving the fish or

416
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:34,400
Speaker 3: the son of the dragon it's life back.

417
00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:38,520
Speaker 2: I would hope so. Certainly we have other fishing legends

418
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 2: where the talking fish grants a wish or something, So

419
00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,880
Speaker 2: I would hope that this is in some way auspicious.

420
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 3: This association between dragons and carp. Beyond just the you know,

421
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:52,000
Speaker 3: the transformation of the persistent carp who makes it up

422
00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:56,400
Speaker 3: through the dragon gate turning into a dragon. Beyond that one,

423
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 3: this association between dragons and carp will come up in

424
00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:00,960
Speaker 3: a legend. And I want to talk about in a

425
00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:03,480
Speaker 3: bit about an immortal Oh excellent.

426
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,879
Speaker 2: Well, before we get to that, let's let's divert briefly

427
00:25:09,560 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 2: over to India. I was looking in Naditha Krishna's Sacred

428
00:25:15,400 --> 00:25:18,159
Speaker 2: Animals of India, and that book highlights a number of

429
00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 2: sacred fish, though not all of them are tied in

430
00:25:21,760 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 2: this text to specific species. Two, however, do seem to

431
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,399
Speaker 2: align with some sort of species of carp. There's the

432
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 2: Rohita fish, which is a symbol of Mahayana Buddhism, and

433
00:25:33,920 --> 00:25:37,440
Speaker 2: it is a right hand symbol of the goddess of Varahi.

434
00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:41,160
Speaker 2: A pair of golden fish symbolizes happiness as well as

435
00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 2: possibly holy rivers and also the possibility of transcendental wisdom.

436
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:53,000
Speaker 2: The species libeo Rohita or the rohu fish, is a

437
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 2: carp found throughout South Asia. Its prized as both a

438
00:25:56,520 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 2: game fish and a product of aquaculture. I don't believe, however,

439
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:04,040
Speaker 2: that they are ever golden in color. Now there is

440
00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:09,000
Speaker 2: also the mahashir or masir, and this is a fish

441
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 2: considered sacred in many rivers of India. And this is

442
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:16,000
Speaker 2: a carp species of the genus tor And. I was

443
00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:18,920
Speaker 2: looking at pictures of these. Some pictures I did not trust.

444
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:21,199
Speaker 2: Some of these look like they might be ai. But

445
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,680
Speaker 2: there are some other older images that seemed more authentic

446
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 2: that seem to indicate that they can take on some

447
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 2: level of golden color. I don't know if this is

448
00:26:30,520 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 2: how much of this is the sun playing on glittering

449
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 2: scales once they've been removed from the water, But some

450
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 2: potential for golden fish here. And then turning back to Japan, Yeah,

451
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 2: once more, there is that the ningyo, which is a

452
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 2: Japanese human fish hybrid. Again often sort of described as

453
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:58,159
Speaker 2: a merman or mermaid through the Western lens, and it

454
00:26:58,240 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 2: is often invoked with the fish parts being that of

455
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 2: a familiar carp. And this was really interesting because the

456
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:09,560
Speaker 2: ningo is often described as being a fish, generally again

457
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 2: a carp with a human face, sometimes with like parts

458
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 2: of a human's upper body, like little arms or so forth,

459
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 2: and much like the Fiji mermaid Mumma fied, examples of

460
00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:25,760
Speaker 2: this creature were created via taxidermy, transforming conjoined fish and

461
00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 2: monkey parts into a new being. In fact, the Fiji

462
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 2: Mermaid is likely a ningyo that made its way into

463
00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 2: the hands of nineteenth century American showman P. T. Barnum.

464
00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:38,960
Speaker 2: So just a little rebranding here.

465
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 3: Okay, wait, so I don't know if you know the

466
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 3: answer to this, But is it thought by whoever established

467
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 3: this historical record that he knew it was this Japanese

468
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:52,520
Speaker 3: creature and he's like, I need to rebrand it for

469
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 3: an American audience, or is it just like I have

470
00:27:55,359 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 3: no idea what this is. I'll make something up from.

471
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 2: What I was reading and perhaps have to get into

472
00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 2: a more robust history of the Fiji mermaid later. I

473
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 2: think it came it didn't come directly. You came through intermediarymediary,

474
00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:11,760
Speaker 2: so it's very possible that it was rebranded along the

475
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,959
Speaker 2: way as it made its way to his hands.

476
00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:16,879
Speaker 3: Okay, before it even got to him.

477
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 2: I see. Now there are different traditions concerning the ningo

478
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 2: the eating of its flesh. It said that this will

479
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:27,600
Speaker 2: give you long life. But on the other hand, catching

480
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 2: one is a bad omen that'll bring about terrible storms.

481
00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 2: So kind of a catch twenty two there. But there

482
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:36,360
Speaker 2: is a tale that is told of a nun by

483
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 2: the name of yal Bikuni who attained eight hundred years

484
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,520
Speaker 2: of perpetual youth by eating the flesh of one of

485
00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 2: these creatures.

486
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:47,320
Speaker 3: Wow, you got to get that eternal youth, that's the

487
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:51,080
Speaker 3: important part. You don't want to live forever but continually age. Yeah,

488
00:28:51,200 --> 00:28:53,120
Speaker 3: we watched at least one movie about that.

489
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:57,920
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, yeah, that's always the curse, right, yeah,

490
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 2: or you get immortality, but you don't get that that

491
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 2: that wolverine healing factor to go with it. So in

492
00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 2: any ere, you know, it makes sense that if you

493
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 2: hate the flesh of one of these creatures, that it

494
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,720
Speaker 2: would have some sort of benefit to your longevity, because

495
00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 2: again there is this long standing connection between carp and

496
00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 2: longevity and also of transformation again with the idea of

497
00:29:17,840 --> 00:29:21,440
Speaker 2: the carp becoming the dragon and so forth. Now, an

498
00:29:21,440 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 2: interesting sort of final wrinkle on this particular angle is

499
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:31,400
Speaker 2: that koi fish can, with the right markings and the

500
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 2: right of observational conditions, maybe the right photograph angle, they

501
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:41,160
Speaker 2: can appear to have humanoid faces. Some of these images

502
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:43,240
Speaker 2: have made the rounds on the Internet over the past

503
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 2: couple of decades. And I'm sure there are some you know,

504
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 2: AI monstrosities out there now and men probably some photoshop

505
00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 2: stuff in the mix, but it's my understanding there are

506
00:29:52,480 --> 00:29:56,240
Speaker 2: some genuine images out there that, you know, do kind

507
00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 2: of look like you're looking at a carp with a

508
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 2: human face. So and you know, this is not this

509
00:30:03,320 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 2: is not something you just find in cooy. There are

510
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 2: other fish species out there that I think are captivating

511
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 2: because their face feels a little more human. I'm thinking

512
00:30:11,920 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 2: of various puffer fish, for example, which are sometimes when

513
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 2: people photograph them and say snorkeling environments, like the phone

514
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 2: will like do the whole like face thing, like it'll

515
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 2: like recognize the face of the fish, yeah, which is yeah,

516
00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 2: I think, I think says something about why we find

517
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 2: them so fascinating.

518
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:33,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, puffer fish in particular are not just they don't

519
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 3: just have faces, but they're making a face.

520
00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they're kind of like all face because they

521
00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 2: kind of feel like a big head, right.

522
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like I'm thinking about particular puffer fish faces, and

523
00:30:45,680 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 3: they make good reaction meme style faces. One is kind

524
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 3: of a slack jaw are you kidding me? Face?

525
00:30:53,440 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 2: Yeah? They always feel to me like and this, especially

526
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 2: if I'm observing them in the water, they always kind

527
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 2: of look like they're thinking looking at me? Are you

528
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,080
Speaker 2: still looking at me? And they you know, and they're

529
00:31:06,120 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 2: kind of like drifting away from you the whole time.

530
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 3: How can I talk myself out of this situation? Yeah? Yeah, Okay,

531
00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:24,959
Speaker 3: are you ready to talk about carp riding?

532
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, let's do that. We haven't touched on this, So.

533
00:31:28,880 --> 00:31:31,920
Speaker 3: I think the best way to approach this subject is

534
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 3: to begin with you and I Rob looking at a

535
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:37,000
Speaker 3: work of art that we can describe for the listeners

536
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,560
Speaker 3: at home. So, Rob, I've got the image for you

537
00:31:39,600 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 3: to look at. Here in the outline, I'm going to

538
00:31:41,280 --> 00:31:45,520
Speaker 3: describe it. This is a Japanese color wood cut from

539
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,240
Speaker 3: the Edo period, approximately the your eighteen twenty or so,

540
00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 3: by an artist named Toyota Hoke. I found this in

541
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 3: the online collection of the Spencer Museum of Art at

542
00:31:57,280 --> 00:32:00,720
Speaker 3: the University of Kansas, which had some good explanatorys along

543
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,520
Speaker 3: with it. So I'll describe it first and then talk

544
00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 3: about what it means. The woodcut shows a sagely older

545
00:32:08,440 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 3: man with long hair and a mustache, wearing Taoist ceremonial

546
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 3: robes and so he's he's dressed in these robes. The

547
00:32:17,960 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 3: robes are very flowing and his hair is flying back

548
00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 3: behind him. He has a oh, I would call this

549
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,080
Speaker 3: a sly look on his face. It's just the slightest

550
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 3: hint of a smile, like pretty flat mouth, but just

551
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,960
Speaker 3: curling up at the corners, like he's onto a pretty

552
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 3: funny joke. But he hasn't said anything about it yet.

553
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, almost like he's riding a Harley or something. I

554
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 2: don't know.

555
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, and he's got something in his lap. I'll talk

556
00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 3: about that in a minute. But so this is all here. Yeah,

557
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:47,680
Speaker 3: So he's got the expression, he's got the robes, but

558
00:32:47,760 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 3: he is riding on the back of a giant carp

559
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 3: just riding a fish the size of an orca like

560
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,120
Speaker 3: it's a horse, sort of positioned right back behind the head,

561
00:32:58,200 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 3: around where the first pair of fins is and the

562
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:06,000
Speaker 3: fish who how do you describe that fish's face? Fish

563
00:33:06,000 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 3: has We can only see one side of its face,

564
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 3: but it has a huge eye. And the fish also

565
00:33:11,600 --> 00:33:14,320
Speaker 3: appears to be kind of smiling. It's got an upturned

566
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 3: corners of the mouth. It looks like a happy fish.

567
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 3: It is not unhappy. It is not being broken like

568
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 3: a mustang, and you know, having its spirit beaten down.

569
00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 3: This is a fish that is glad to be giving

570
00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 3: a man a ride.

571
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,000
Speaker 2: And yet there's a certain wildness to it as well.

572
00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 3: Yes, totally so. The man in this artwork is a

573
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 3: figure of legend. The Chinese Taoist immortal known as Chingau

574
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 3: or King Ko. Chingao was a sort of holy recluse

575
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 3: or hermit, a wise man of letters in a way,

576
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 3: a master player of an instrument I've seen in some

577
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 3: sources called a zither, like a seven stringed zither, which

578
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 3: is a stringed instrument in other sources. I don't know

579
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:01,840
Speaker 3: if this is a different instrument or if it's another

580
00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:03,640
Speaker 3: word for the same thing, but they say he played

581
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:07,920
Speaker 3: an instrument called the chin just qi n and so

582
00:34:08,160 --> 00:34:10,400
Speaker 3: he was a player of this instrument, and he was

583
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 3: known as a painter of fish. So I guess if

584
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 3: you paint him and there's a fish in the painting,

585
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 3: you're really inviting scrutiny of your craft. But according to legend,

586
00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:30,960
Speaker 3: the transformation of this Taoist sage Chingau into an immortal

587
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 3: was signaled by him appearing before his students or his

588
00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:40,400
Speaker 3: disciples riding on a magical carp and then after this

589
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,920
Speaker 3: it was said that he traveled up and down all

590
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:45,600
Speaker 3: the waterways of the world on the back of this

591
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 3: carp steed. But in some representations, such as this artwork

592
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 3: that you and I are looking at, Rob, in this one,

593
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 3: he is shown flying up into the clouds. He's going

594
00:34:57,080 --> 00:34:59,239
Speaker 3: to the heavens, and this is why the fish is

595
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,440
Speaker 3: surrounded by clouds on this woodcut. I didn't actually notice

596
00:35:02,480 --> 00:35:04,480
Speaker 3: the clouds at first, but Rob, if you look at,

597
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:06,879
Speaker 3: say the outline of the fish, you can see kind

598
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 3: of the fluffy edges of the clouds that it's almost

599
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 3: almost like the fish is sitting on the clouds.

600
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:16,800
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, very much. And you see similar depictions of

601
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:20,719
Speaker 2: outright dragons, yes, in Eastern traditions, where they're like he

602
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 2: had nested on the cloud.

603
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,720
Speaker 3: Did you notice that this carp is also its body

604
00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,520
Speaker 3: appears to you said, it looks very wild, and I

605
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 3: think that is suggested in part by the implied motion

606
00:35:33,480 --> 00:35:36,200
Speaker 3: of its pose. It appears to be writhing. In fact,

607
00:35:36,239 --> 00:35:39,960
Speaker 3: it is writhing in an S shape, the same kind

608
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 3: of S shape we often see Chinese dragons depicted. So yeah,

609
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 3: it's there in the clouds. It's writhing like this. It's

610
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:51,600
Speaker 3: having a great time. One thing I did want to

611
00:35:51,600 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 3: point out about Chingao here is that in this woodcut

612
00:35:54,920 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 3: he is not observing hands free eyes on the road

613
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:02,240
Speaker 3: driving rules because he has some kind of text spread

614
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,319
Speaker 3: out in his lap and he's reading it while he

615
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 3: is writing the fish. I don't know if rules are

616
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,400
Speaker 3: different when you're like writing an animal that has its own,

617
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,840
Speaker 3: you know, some degree of its own intelligence and guidance,

618
00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:18,879
Speaker 3: versus driving a car. But the museum explanatory text here

619
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:20,959
Speaker 3: says that the papers in front of him are thought

620
00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,040
Speaker 3: to be possibly a work of sheet music because he

621
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 3: was a a player of the stringed instrument, or maybe

622
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:32,520
Speaker 3: a treatise on painting because he was a painter. Also

623
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 3: on the woodcut below the image, there are two short poems,

624
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,560
Speaker 3: which the museum explains touch on the themes. One of

625
00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,120
Speaker 3: the themes is it is good to read and study,

626
00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 3: so text is good text life. And one of the

627
00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 3: other themes is it's good to have a long life.

628
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:51,080
Speaker 3: Thumbs up the longevity. And it quotes one of these

629
00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 3: poems saying, in translation quote count all the great karps Scales,

630
00:36:56,760 --> 00:37:00,600
Speaker 3: read all the Master's works and grasp his nature on

631
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 3: the long spring days. So, if you're going to make

632
00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,960
Speaker 3: that bumper stickery, I think the message is sort of

633
00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,360
Speaker 3: live long, read books, joy, enjoy nature.

634
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, or count read, grasp, but I think the whole

635
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 2: thing it would be a long bumper sticker. It would

636
00:37:16,040 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 2: cover the whole bumper. But I think count all the

637
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 2: Great carp Scales read all the Master's works and grasp

638
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 2: his nature on the long spring days. That would look

639
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 2: pretty good. I think maybe that would calm traffic a

640
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:31,480
Speaker 2: little bit. You know, the person writing your bumper might

641
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:33,959
Speaker 2: back up and say, yeah, I should count the Great

642
00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 2: carp Scales a little more often. I'm not doing enough

643
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:37,080
Speaker 2: of that in my life.

644
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,440
Speaker 3: Also, not while you're driving, though you stop before you

645
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 3: count the scales.

646
00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:41,760
Speaker 2: Yeah.

647
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:45,640
Speaker 3: Another annotation to this work is by a scholar credited

648
00:37:45,640 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 3: here named Veronica de Jong, and this note points out

649
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,680
Speaker 3: the broader cultural significance of the carp in this legend

650
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 3: and in the artwork. We've already talked about some of this.

651
00:37:57,400 --> 00:38:00,840
Speaker 3: So the carp is again an auspicious animal bring success

652
00:38:01,000 --> 00:38:04,120
Speaker 3: and good luck. She points out, I hadn't read this

653
00:38:04,200 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 3: anywhere else that it's also associated with faithfulness in marriage.

654
00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,200
Speaker 3: Kind of interesting, but you can see how that pairs

655
00:38:11,200 --> 00:38:14,920
Speaker 3: with general themes of persistence over time, that you are

656
00:38:15,600 --> 00:38:19,719
Speaker 3: sticking to your commitment. And then she also links it

657
00:38:19,840 --> 00:38:23,000
Speaker 3: to the myth of the karp leaping the dragon gate

658
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 3: like we talked about, and mentions that in Japan, historically

659
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,160
Speaker 3: the carp was not only associated with success and good

660
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,040
Speaker 3: personal qualities like we're talking about in the Chinese examples,

661
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 3: but historically with samurai, which I thought was interesting. So Rob,

662
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 3: I want to look at a couple of other artistic

663
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:46,479
Speaker 3: representations of Chingau or kin ko. The one is called

664
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 3: the Immortal Chingau Riding a Fish. This is an anonymous

665
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:53,760
Speaker 3: ink on paper artwork from the sixteenth or early seventeenth century.

666
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,200
Speaker 3: Also from Japan. It's in the collection of the Princeton

667
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 3: University Art Museum of you scroll down in the out

668
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 3: line and see it here once again, it is a

669
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:07,840
Speaker 3: man in Taoist robes riding on a fish, and there

670
00:39:07,880 --> 00:39:10,400
Speaker 3: are a few differences. Unlike the last painting where the

671
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:12,719
Speaker 3: fish was flying up into the clouds, here it is

672
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 3: shown gliding through the water, and you can see even

673
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 3: some representations of the bank, like there are branches of

674
00:39:18,400 --> 00:39:23,279
Speaker 3: bamboo in the lower left foreground. And the material explaining

675
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,040
Speaker 3: this piece of art has a bit more detail on

676
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:30,919
Speaker 3: Chingao's legendary biography. So this comes from a text known

677
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:36,680
Speaker 3: as Biographies of Exemplary Immortals attributed to Lu Jiang. And

678
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 3: I want to note that there appear to be some

679
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 3: different versions of the legend of this guy's life which

680
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 3: have different details, so I'm reporting what I read from

681
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:50,200
Speaker 3: this one. But the story says that Qingao lived during

682
00:39:50,239 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 3: the Warring States period, and he at one point served

683
00:39:53,760 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 3: as an advisor to a king, either an advisor or

684
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,960
Speaker 3: possibly a musical performer to the King Hung of the

685
00:40:01,000 --> 00:40:05,800
Speaker 3: State of Song, and he studied under two other renowned

686
00:40:05,800 --> 00:40:09,719
Speaker 3: immortals named Peng Zhu and juan Zi, and then he

687
00:40:09,800 --> 00:40:12,920
Speaker 3: went wandering for two hundred years. You got to get

688
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 3: some experience, and then finally we get to the carp. So,

689
00:40:16,320 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 3: after the two hundred years of wandering, Chingau tells his

690
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 3: own students, his disciples that he is going to jump

691
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 3: into a lake. He's going to jump into this lake

692
00:40:25,480 --> 00:40:29,800
Speaker 3: called Lake Juou to go looking for dragons or looking

693
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 3: for a particular dragon. In one of the sources I

694
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,839
Speaker 3: was looking at that seemed a little less This one

695
00:40:37,239 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 3: was not citing its sources, so I was a little

696
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 3: less sure of it. But it mentioned that he was

697
00:40:41,239 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 3: actually looking for a carp that was thought to be

698
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 3: the son of a dragon, bringing back to what you

699
00:40:46,920 --> 00:40:50,040
Speaker 3: mentioned earlier about a different legend of a carp being

700
00:40:50,040 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 3: the son of a dragon. But in this telling, it's

701
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,160
Speaker 3: just says that he goes looking for dragons or for

702
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:58,000
Speaker 3: a dragon in the lake. And so he said, yeah,

703
00:40:58,000 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 3: he goes into the water, and he gives his disciple

704
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 3: a time and date that he's going to emerge from

705
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 3: the lake and says that they should be there to

706
00:41:05,520 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 3: meet him. But first they got to do some preparations.

707
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:11,920
Speaker 3: They should bathe and fast and put together a shrine

708
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 3: or a temple at the edge of the water. So

709
00:41:15,320 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 3: his disciples do as they are told. They wash themselves,

710
00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,760
Speaker 3: they fast, they build the shrine, and they're there waiting,

711
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:25,399
Speaker 3: and at the appointed hour, Chingao finally pops up out

712
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 3: of the water and he is riding on the back

713
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 3: of a red carp. So after this, I guess this signals, okay,

714
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 3: he has become an immortal now, and he hangs out

715
00:41:35,400 --> 00:41:37,920
Speaker 3: at the shrine for a month while everybody comes to

716
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 3: see him. The story says that thousands of people flocked

717
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:44,239
Speaker 3: from all over to come see him. The sources I

718
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:46,440
Speaker 3: was reading do not say whether he was on the

719
00:41:46,520 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 3: carp the whole time, or whether he only came out

720
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:53,520
Speaker 3: on the carp and then dismounted. I would like to

721
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:56,399
Speaker 3: think he's on the carp the whole time. That would

722
00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 3: make him much more interesting to see, right for all

723
00:41:58,680 --> 00:42:01,919
Speaker 3: the people coming from all over over. But anyway, after

724
00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 3: this month long visitation at the temple or shrine is up,

725
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:09,440
Speaker 3: he goes back back into the water, and from this

726
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 3: point on I think he either ascends into the heavens

727
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:14,800
Speaker 3: on the carp or he rides around on the carp

728
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 3: going to the lakes and rivers of the world.

729
00:42:17,960 --> 00:42:21,040
Speaker 2: You know. That that that that that second idea does

730
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,719
Speaker 2: tie in with some things I was reading about about

731
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 2: the carp, about how the its ability to again you know,

732
00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:31,160
Speaker 2: not to not to apply too much logic to this,

733
00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:33,319
Speaker 2: but the idea that a carp can travel on all

734
00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 2: the rivers and all the oceans of the world, you know,

735
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 2: or something like that, it implies a kind of supernatural

736
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,400
Speaker 2: ability to travel, like and a unif you know, like

737
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:46,800
Speaker 2: a uniformality to bodies of water. You know, like you

738
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,360
Speaker 2: dip your finger in one body of water, you're touching

739
00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:53,120
Speaker 2: a distant shore. And the carp has this kind of

740
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 2: magic in it that it can it can travel that

741
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 2: great distance. It's like, you know, it's you know, it's

742
00:42:59,880 --> 00:43:01,920
Speaker 2: just part of its magical ability and just how in

743
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 2: touch with the natural world it is.

744
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, the theme of the magical theme of the adaptability of

745
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 3: the carb connects to the reality, the biological reality of

746
00:43:12,320 --> 00:43:15,279
Speaker 3: the adaptability of the carp. And then we have these

747
00:43:15,320 --> 00:43:17,520
Speaker 3: other themes that we see popping up again and again

748
00:43:17,719 --> 00:43:21,800
Speaker 3: in these stories. One is longevity or long life. Again,

749
00:43:22,600 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 3: probably some of these carp that are said to be

750
00:43:25,040 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 3: hundreds of years old or probably not really, but you know,

751
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 3: at least we have this cultural association with long life.

752
00:43:30,880 --> 00:43:33,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they do live long enough that conceivably you

753
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:36,760
Speaker 2: could have people pass a carp on from one generation

754
00:43:36,840 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 2: to the next, you know, if things panned out just right.

755
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:42,720
Speaker 2: They're just not living to be two hundred. Yeah.

756
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, they're not like they're not tetras or something.

757
00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 3: I actually I don't know how long those live, but

758
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 3: I assume, you know, I remember having a small freshwater

759
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:53,319
Speaker 3: aquarium at my house that a lot of these fish

760
00:43:53,360 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 3: did not live too long, though partially that could have

761
00:43:57,840 --> 00:43:59,919
Speaker 3: been our fault. I don't know, I hope.

762
00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:02,439
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, I mean this is one of the you see,

763
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:05,400
Speaker 2: this discussed a lot in the literature about particularly goldfish,

764
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:09,160
Speaker 2: is that by being such a popular species and thought

765
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 2: of it and times thought of as being an easy

766
00:44:12,000 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 2: species to keep, it leads to a lot of unfortunate

767
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 2: mortality in goldfish.

768
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:20,120
Speaker 3: Yeah. But so, yeah, you got that theme. And then

769
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 3: you have these themes again of perseverance, grit and courage,

770
00:44:23,800 --> 00:44:27,880
Speaker 3: of faithfulness, and of success in the face of hardship,

771
00:44:27,960 --> 00:44:30,720
Speaker 3: which are all wonderful things to associate with this fish.

772
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 3: This comment very very common, very diverse family of fish.

773
00:44:35,560 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 3: One more artwork I wanted to look at before we

774
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:41,640
Speaker 3: wrap up this section. This is an artwork called Taoist

775
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 3: Immortal Chingau or Kinko sin in riding a carp This

776
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 3: is a Japanese ivory sculpture. This is more recent. It's

777
00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:53,440
Speaker 3: from the early twentieth century, and I just wanted to

778
00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:56,200
Speaker 3: make a let's see, where did I find this? I

779
00:44:56,239 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 3: think this was online from the Museum of Asian Art,

780
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:02,399
Speaker 3: and I just wanted to flag it because I really

781
00:45:02,440 --> 00:45:07,000
Speaker 3: like how in this representation the fish is significantly less

782
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 3: vehicle or steed designed. It's like the wise man is

783
00:45:13,800 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 3: not riding the fish here, He's sitting in the fish.

784
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 3: He's totally absorbed in his reading, and the fish looks

785
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:24,000
Speaker 3: like a comfy reading chair. Do you do you get

786
00:45:24,040 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 3: the same thing.

787
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:27,760
Speaker 2: Out of Absolutely? I love this. This seems like exactly

788
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 2: the sort of little icon you might have, you know,

789
00:45:31,560 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 2: on a desk or a shelf that is inspiring you

790
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:38,160
Speaker 2: to count the scales and to read all the texts

791
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:39,800
Speaker 2: and to live along life.

792
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 3: It made When I saw this, I was like, I

793
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:43,239
Speaker 3: don't want to work today, I just want to read

794
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 3: my book.

795
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:48,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, just yeah, yeah, cuddle up with a good book

796
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:53,440
Speaker 2: and a large fish and waste the day away. Yeah.

797
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 3: So that's all I've got on Chingao or Kinko. But

798
00:45:56,520 --> 00:46:00,520
Speaker 3: I like this guy new new favorite legendary figure unlocked.

799
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:04,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely when it comes to figures writing fish, right, Yeah,

800
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 2: all right, Well, we're gonna go ahead and close out

801
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 2: this episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, but we'd

802
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 2: love to hear from everyone out there, your stories about goldfish,

803
00:46:12,120 --> 00:46:16,760
Speaker 2: your stories about KOI, also just carp in general, including

804
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:18,759
Speaker 2: the eating of carp. Do you have a favorite carp

805
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:21,919
Speaker 2: recipe or is there a particular carp dish that you've

806
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,360
Speaker 2: greatly enjoyed at some point? All that's fair game as well,

807
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,919
Speaker 2: and certainly any legends works of art that we didn't

808
00:46:28,960 --> 00:46:31,200
Speaker 2: touch on here write in. We would love to hear

809
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:31,520
Speaker 2: from you.

810
00:46:32,239 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

811
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

812
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

813
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

814
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:45,319
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact Stuff to Blow your

815
00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 3: Mind dot com.

816
00:46:54,120 --> 00:46:57,040
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For

817
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:59,920
Speaker 1: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

818
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,800
Speaker 1: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.