1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: Happy Saturday. Last Saturday, we re released our episode on 2 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: Operation paper Clip. Today's Classic is our follow up to 3 00:00:10,200 --> 00:00:12,960 Speaker 1: that episode, which covered four people who were brought to 4 00:00:13,000 --> 00:00:15,160 Speaker 1: the US under this program. 5 00:00:15,280 --> 00:00:18,920 Speaker 2: This originally came out May twenty six, twenty twenty one. 6 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:23,919 Speaker 2: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production 7 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:33,600 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. 8 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:38,240 Speaker 1: I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Frye. Last time we. 9 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:42,600 Speaker 2: Talked about Operation paper Clip, also known as Project paper Clip, 10 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:46,519 Speaker 2: which was the effort to bring German scientists, engineers, and 11 00:00:46,600 --> 00:00:49,520 Speaker 2: other specialists to the United States after World War Two. 12 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,320 Speaker 2: And this built on an earlier program that was called 13 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 2: Operation Overcast and that had given the same types of 14 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 2: specialists short term contracts to either work in Germany or 15 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,920 Speaker 2: to in the United States under military supervision. But under 16 00:01:03,960 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 2: Operation paper Clip, most of those specialists that were brought 17 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:10,280 Speaker 2: to the US actually got the opportunity to become US citizens. 18 00:01:10,920 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 2: About one thousand, six hundred total specialists entered the US 19 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:18,640 Speaker 2: through this program, and more than ninety percent of the 20 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:21,720 Speaker 2: ones who arrived between nineteen forty five and nineteen fifty 21 00:01:21,720 --> 00:01:24,960 Speaker 2: two went on to become US citizens. For the most part, 22 00:01:25,000 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 2: they were recruiting relatively young folks. They were mostly under 23 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 2: the age of forty when they left Germany, and although 24 00:01:31,760 --> 00:01:34,520 Speaker 2: most of them started out working for a branch of 25 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 2: the military, about ten percent were initially hired at the 26 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:41,679 Speaker 2: Department of Commerce. So, as we talked about last time, 27 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 2: but for a super quick recap in case folks have 28 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,480 Speaker 2: skipped that episode, When this program was established, it was 29 00:01:48,560 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 2: taken as a given that most of these people had 30 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:54,920 Speaker 2: at least some involvement with the Nazi Party. In the 31 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 2: words of a Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency report quote, such 32 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:03,560 Speaker 2: membership would due to exigencies which influenced the lives of 33 00:02:03,600 --> 00:02:07,320 Speaker 2: every citizen of Germany at that time, but especially in 34 00:02:07,360 --> 00:02:09,240 Speaker 2: the early years of the program, there were also a 35 00:02:09,280 --> 00:02:11,720 Speaker 2: whole lot of assurances that the people who were being 36 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,760 Speaker 2: targeted for this were they quote, good Germans, and that 37 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 2: they would all be pre screened to confirm that they 38 00:02:18,080 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 2: were not ardent Nazis. So it's possible that many or 39 00:02:23,600 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 2: maybe even most of the people who came to the 40 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 2: US through the program really did meet these criteria, but 41 00:02:29,400 --> 00:02:32,800 Speaker 2: others definitely did not. And this was not just a 42 00:02:32,840 --> 00:02:35,840 Speaker 2: matter of Nazis and war criminals managing. 43 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:36,760 Speaker 1: To evade detection. 44 00:02:37,280 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 2: The people and agencies who were involved with running this 45 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:45,519 Speaker 2: program intentionally obscured the most damning details from candidate's backgrounds, 46 00:02:46,040 --> 00:02:51,040 Speaker 2: especially if their knowledge and expertise seemed particularly valuable. So 47 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:53,880 Speaker 2: my intent had been to talk about this program and 48 00:02:53,919 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 2: then talk about some of the more well known people 49 00:02:57,040 --> 00:02:57,480 Speaker 2: who were. 50 00:02:57,400 --> 00:02:57,840 Speaker 1: Part of it. 51 00:02:58,400 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 2: It turned out just talking about the program was a 52 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 2: whole episode by itself. So today we are going to 53 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 2: talk about a few of the most famous and infamous 54 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 2: paper clippers, some of whom were connected to some truly 55 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 2: horrific war crimes. So probably the most famous of all 56 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:17,680 Speaker 2: of the Operation paper Clips specialists was Werner von Braun. 57 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 2: His thesis for his PhD in physics had involved rocket 58 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:23,679 Speaker 2: thrust engines, which came out of work that he did 59 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:28,680 Speaker 2: at Kumersdorf Army proving grounds under another future paper clipper officer, 60 00:03:28,800 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 2: Walter R. Dornberger. This work had been funded by the 61 00:03:32,720 --> 00:03:37,760 Speaker 2: German Army. Although von Brown's rockets had potential as a weapon, 62 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 2: his real interest was space, and in a lot of 63 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:44,360 Speaker 2: ways he used the military promise of his work as 64 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:47,200 Speaker 2: a means to an end. At one point he was 65 00:03:47,280 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 2: quoted as saying, quote, we felt no moral scruples about 66 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 2: the possible future use of our brain child. We were 67 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 2: interested solely in exploring space. It was simply a question 68 00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 2: with us of how the golden cow could be milked 69 00:04:01,600 --> 00:04:05,760 Speaker 2: most successfully. By nineteen thirty seven, the German Army had 70 00:04:05,800 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 2: outgrown the coomber Storf facility and needed a more remote 71 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 2: location to conduct rocket tests, so the team moved to 72 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:15,840 Speaker 2: Pinamunda on the coast of the Baltic Sea. Von Braun 73 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,720 Speaker 2: became the technical director at Pinamunda at the age of 74 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:23,120 Speaker 2: just twenty five. That same year, he also accepted an 75 00:04:23,120 --> 00:04:27,320 Speaker 2: invitation to join the Nazi Party. Later he also joined 76 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:31,600 Speaker 2: the Schutzstaffel or SS, where he ultimately became a Sternbanfur 77 00:04:32,040 --> 00:04:35,920 Speaker 2: or Major. Von Brown and the team at Pinamunda developed 78 00:04:35,920 --> 00:04:38,480 Speaker 2: the weapon that would become known as the V two 79 00:04:39,080 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 2: translated from German as the Vengeance Weapon two, which was 80 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:47,240 Speaker 2: the first long range ballistic missile. In nineteen forty three, 81 00:04:47,360 --> 00:04:51,240 Speaker 2: the Allies bombed this facility, so all the weapons development 82 00:04:51,279 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 2: and production operation there were moved underground, using an old 83 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,000 Speaker 2: mind to house a facility that became known as Mittelwerk, 84 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 2: who were being imprisoned at the middlbau Dora concentration camp 85 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 2: complex were forced to work in truly horrifying conditions, including 86 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 2: digging out the tunnels by hand, with nowhere to sleep 87 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:15,560 Speaker 2: and no hygiene facilities. Most of the people being held 88 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 2: at Middlebow Dohra were political prisoners from multiple countries, especially 89 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:24,839 Speaker 2: the Soviet Union, Poland and France. Jewish and Romany prisoners 90 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 2: began to be deported to the camp after the spring 91 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:31,040 Speaker 2: and fall of nineteen forty four. The use of enslaved 92 00:05:31,120 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 2: labor at Middlewk continued after the facility was finished, with 93 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 2: the prisoners building the weapons that were being produced there. 94 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 2: According to Brian E. Krim, author of our Germans project 95 00:05:42,320 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 2: paper Clip in the National Security State, more people died 96 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:50,200 Speaker 2: building V two rockets than were actually killed through their 97 00:05:50,279 --> 00:05:53,920 Speaker 2: use as a weapon. Between August of nineteen forty three 98 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:57,600 Speaker 2: and April of nineteen forty five, at least sixty thousand 99 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 2: people were forced to work on these weapons, and at 100 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:07,839 Speaker 2: least twenty thousand of them died of things like starvation, illness, executions, suicides, 101 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:09,520 Speaker 2: and just being worked to death. 102 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 1: Officials at the facility also carried out at least two 103 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: mass hangings one in particular, was carried out in a 104 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 1: very gruesome way, with the other prisoners forced to witness it. 105 00:06:22,560 --> 00:06:25,000 Speaker 1: Some of the rockets had exploded on the launch pad, 106 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:29,159 Speaker 1: raising suspicions that someone was sabotaging them, and that mass 107 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 1: hanging was meant to deter future sabotage. Although many of 108 00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 1: the staff that had worked at Pinamunda were transferred to 109 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,960 Speaker 1: Middlverk and worked on site there, Werner von Brown actually 110 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:42,480 Speaker 1: worked elsewhere, but he did tour. 111 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:45,039 Speaker 2: This facility at least once, and he knew about the 112 00:06:45,160 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 2: terrible conditions and the use of enslaved labor there. At 113 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:52,159 Speaker 2: one point, he testified at the trial of three SS 114 00:06:52,160 --> 00:06:56,159 Speaker 2: members who had worked at the Middle Bawdora concentration camp complex, 115 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 2: and he acknowledged the appalling conditions and the use of 116 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 2: enslaved labor in that testimony. In nineteen forty four, the 117 00:07:04,279 --> 00:07:07,919 Speaker 2: Gestapo arrested von Brown and held him for about two weeks. 118 00:07:08,800 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 2: Sources differ about exactly what prompted this arrest. In some accounts, 119 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,280 Speaker 2: he was being really disparaging about Germany's chances to win 120 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 2: the war, and he was only released after Dornberger convinced 121 00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 2: the Gestapo that he was critical to missile production. This 122 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 2: arrest sometimes comes up as evidence that von Brown wasn't 123 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,600 Speaker 2: a quote real Nazi and had only been involved in 124 00:07:29,640 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 2: the Nazi Party in the ess out of self preservation 125 00:07:32,800 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 2: or even opportunistic motives, or because he had perhaps been coerced. 126 00:07:37,960 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 2: In the spring of nineteen forty five, as Germany was 127 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,720 Speaker 2: rapidly losing ground in the war, the Soviet Red Army 128 00:07:44,840 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 2: was advancing toward von Brown's location. He and Dornberger both 129 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,440 Speaker 2: believed that the United States would see them as assets, 130 00:07:52,600 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 2: and that surrendering to the Americans would be really preferable 131 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,360 Speaker 2: to being captured by the Soviets, so they and many 132 00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:03,000 Speaker 2: of their college fled and went into hiding. Even though 133 00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 2: Hitler had ordered the destruction of anything that could be 134 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 2: useful to the Allies, von Brown hid his research work, 135 00:08:08,680 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 2: and he later went back and retrieved it. On May second, 136 00:08:12,240 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 2: nineteen forty five, Von Brown, Dornberger, and one hundred twenty 137 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,760 Speaker 2: six principal engineers from MIDDELVK surrendered to an American gi 138 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 2: They had sent von Broun's younger brother, Magnus, to make 139 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 2: contact with the Americans, both because he was the most 140 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 2: familiar with the English language, and because he knew how 141 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 2: critical it was to keep the details of what was 142 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:38,600 Speaker 2: happening at middlelvk's secret. Joseph Stalin was not pleased with 143 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 2: this at all. He reportedly said, quote, this is absolutely intolerable. 144 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 2: We defeated the Nazi armies, we occupied Berlin and Pinamunda, 145 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:51,560 Speaker 2: but the Americans got the rocket engineers. What could be 146 00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 2: more revolting and more inexcusable? How and why was this 147 00:08:55,400 --> 00:08:58,640 Speaker 2: allowed to happen. Once von Braun got to the US, 148 00:08:58,720 --> 00:09:01,400 Speaker 2: he worked at White Sands pre Ground in New Mexico, 149 00:09:01,760 --> 00:09:04,600 Speaker 2: where he helped American forces learn about and learned to 150 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:07,880 Speaker 2: use the V two rockets that he had developed. In 151 00:09:08,000 --> 00:09:10,880 Speaker 2: nineteen forty seven, when he was thirty five, he returned 152 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,040 Speaker 2: to Germany to marry Maria Luise von Quisdrop, who was 153 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:17,960 Speaker 2: his eighteen year old second cousin. After his return, he 154 00:09:18,000 --> 00:09:20,680 Speaker 2: went on to become director of the US Army Ballistic 155 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 2: Missile Agency in Huntsville, Alabama, where he helped develop the 156 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 2: Redstone rocket, which was based on the vtwo. The Redstone 157 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:31,160 Speaker 2: was a ballistic missile that could carry a nuclear payload. 158 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:36,000 Speaker 2: Van Brown started formally proposing plans for space exploration around 159 00:09:36,080 --> 00:09:39,280 Speaker 2: nineteen fifty four, but the Army really wanted him to 160 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:43,559 Speaker 2: keep focusing on weapons development. He eventually got his wish, though, 161 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 2: After NASA was established, he became director of the George C. 162 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 2: Marshall Space Flight Center in Huntsville, Alabama. When Alan Shepard 163 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,080 Speaker 2: Junior became the first American in space in nineteen sixty one, 164 00:09:54,400 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 2: the launch vehicle was a modified Redstone rocket, which von 165 00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 2: Brown had helped to develop. He also led the team 166 00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 2: that developed the Saturn five rocket for the Apollo project. 167 00:10:05,360 --> 00:10:07,959 Speaker 1: In addition to being such a major part of the 168 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: space program, von Brown became a public face for space exploration. 169 00:10:13,120 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty five, he appeared on the Magical World 170 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: of Disney episodes Man in Space, Man and the Moon, 171 00:10:20,200 --> 00:10:24,240 Speaker 1: and Mars and Beyond. He appeared in multiple other documentaries 172 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties and sixties, and was also a 173 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: technical advisor for Disney. He wrote multiple books, and he 174 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: was on the cover of Time magazine in nineteen fifty eight. 175 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,600 Speaker 1: One of the reasons that there are still some question 176 00:10:36,679 --> 00:10:40,360 Speaker 1: marks about von Brown's motivations and decisions before and during 177 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,560 Speaker 1: World War Two is that he died in nineteen seventy seven. 178 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:46,840 Speaker 1: At that point, most of the documents related to Operation 179 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: Paperclip were still classified. That was also before the Office 180 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 1: of Special Investigations opened its investigation into Von Brown's colleague 181 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:59,000 Speaker 1: Arthur Rudolph, which we mentioned in the previous episode. He'll 182 00:10:59,040 --> 00:10:59,840 Speaker 1: come up again later. 183 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,559 Speaker 2: The OSI actually hadn't even been established yet when Von 184 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,920 Speaker 2: Brown died. While there had definitely been vocal critics of 185 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,480 Speaker 2: Project paper Clip for most of its existence, in nineteen 186 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 2: seventy seven, there was still a general belief that ardent 187 00:11:14,679 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 2: Nazis and war criminals had been kept out of the program, 188 00:11:18,480 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 2: and Von Brown himself had critics as well. As one example, 189 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:26,280 Speaker 2: Tom Larr's satirical song Verner von Brown included such lyrics 190 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 2: as once the rockets are up, who cares where they 191 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 2: come down? That's not my department, says Vernervon Brown. But 192 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 2: in general, after his death, Von Brown was widely eulogized. 193 00:11:37,559 --> 00:11:40,480 Speaker 2: President Jimmy Carter called him a man of bold vision 194 00:11:40,600 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 2: and said, quote two millions of Americans, Verner von Brown's 195 00:11:44,360 --> 00:11:48,200 Speaker 2: name was inextricably linked to our exploration of space and 196 00:11:48,240 --> 00:11:52,120 Speaker 2: to the creative application of technology. Not just the people 197 00:11:52,120 --> 00:11:54,559 Speaker 2: of our nation, but all the people of the world 198 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,320 Speaker 2: have profited from his work. We will continue to profit 199 00:11:58,360 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 2: from his example today. Historians and biographers have argued that 200 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:06,679 Speaker 2: von Brown was everything from an opportunist to join the 201 00:12:06,800 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 2: Nazis out of sheer necessity to an ardent war criminal 202 00:12:11,040 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 2: who never faced justice. What's clearest is that he was 203 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:17,520 Speaker 2: definitely a member of the Nazi Party and of the SS, 204 00:12:17,960 --> 00:12:20,640 Speaker 2: that he knew about the use of slave labor and 205 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,640 Speaker 2: the terrible conditions at Middleverk, and that consequently he was 206 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:28,840 Speaker 2: at just a minimum complicit in all of that. He 207 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,880 Speaker 2: was also present for at least one meeting in which 208 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 2: Middleverk's general director, George Rickey, planned out the acquisition of 209 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,840 Speaker 2: French prisoners of war to use this forced labor. He 210 00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:43,599 Speaker 2: also developed a weapon that Germany deployed against allies of 211 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,960 Speaker 2: the United States, killing at least five thousand people. But 212 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 2: then he became a US citizen in nineteen fifty five. 213 00:12:50,240 --> 00:12:53,439 Speaker 2: We just mentioned Arthur Rudolph, and since we only covered 214 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 2: him briefly in the earlier episode, he is where we 215 00:12:57,520 --> 00:12:59,080 Speaker 2: are going to pick up. But first we are going 216 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:11,760 Speaker 2: to pause for a little sponsor break. Arthur Rudolph was 217 00:13:11,760 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 2: born in Germany on November ninth, nineteen oh six, and 218 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:18,480 Speaker 2: he and Berner von Brown later became colleagues at Pina Munda. 219 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:23,000 Speaker 2: After the Allies bombed Pina Munda, Rudolph became the operations 220 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 2: director and the deputy production manager at the underground middle 221 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:30,760 Speaker 2: work facility. In the prior episode on Operation paper Clip, 222 00:13:30,840 --> 00:13:34,320 Speaker 2: we talked about the criteria for determining who was a 223 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 2: so called ardent Nazi, because ardent Nazis were supposed to 224 00:13:38,800 --> 00:13:42,080 Speaker 2: be kept out of the program, and ardent Nazi was 225 00:13:42,120 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 2: generally defined as someone who had joined the Nazi Party 226 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:49,040 Speaker 2: before Hitler had declared himself fewer, who was a leader 227 00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 2: in the party or in one of its affiliated organizations 228 00:13:52,000 --> 00:13:55,600 Speaker 2: like the SS or the Essay, who had been convicted 229 00:13:55,679 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 2: in a postwar d notification court, or who had been 230 00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:04,680 Speaker 2: a accused or convicted of war crimes. So Rudolph joined 231 00:14:04,720 --> 00:14:08,200 Speaker 2: the Nazi Party also known as the National Socialist German 232 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:12,800 Speaker 2: Workers Party and then abbreviated in German as NSDAP in 233 00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:17,280 Speaker 2: nineteen thirty one. That was six years before Werner von 234 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 2: Brown joined and three years before Hitler declared himself Bureer 235 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:24,320 Speaker 2: in the early nineteen thirties, He had also been in 236 00:14:24,320 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 2: the Essay Reserve and in other Nazi connected organizations. When 237 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:33,160 Speaker 2: Rudolph was first screened for potential inclusion in Operation Paperclip, 238 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 2: his interrogator made this notation quote one hundred percent Nazi. 239 00:14:39,080 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 2: That's in all caps, dangerous type security threat exclamation points 240 00:14:44,720 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 2: suggest internment. But in spite of that rather vehement initial assessment, 241 00:14:51,320 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 2: when the Office of Military Government, United States filed its 242 00:14:54,680 --> 00:14:58,000 Speaker 2: report on Rudolph, it concluded that he was not an 243 00:14:58,120 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 2: ardent Nazi. When rudol jo Off was interrogated as part 244 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:04,120 Speaker 2: of this process, he gave his reasons for joining the 245 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,920 Speaker 2: Nazi Party this way quote. Until nineteen thirty, I sympathized 246 00:15:07,960 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 2: with the Social Democratic Party and voted for it, and 247 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,720 Speaker 2: was a member of a Social Democratic Union. After nineteen 248 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:18,320 Speaker 2: thirty the economical situation became so serious that it appeared 249 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:20,920 Speaker 2: to me to be headed for a catastrophe. I really 250 00:15:20,920 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 2: became unemployed in nineteen thirty two. The great amount of 251 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 2: unemployment caused the expansion of the National Socialist and Communistic parties. 252 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:33,840 Speaker 2: Frightened that the latter would become the government, I joined 253 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:38,640 Speaker 2: the NSDAP, a legally regulated society, to help. I believed 254 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 2: in the preservation of the Western culture. 255 00:15:41,960 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: The US Army okayed a slightly edited version of this 256 00:15:45,720 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: statement to release to the public, which ended quote, during 257 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: the last few years, political developments became more and more serious, 258 00:15:53,560 --> 00:15:56,680 Speaker 1: but I could not foresee this result when I entered 259 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:57,200 Speaker 1: the party. 260 00:15:57,880 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 2: Rudolph was one of the first German specialists to enter 261 00:16:00,840 --> 00:16:03,920 Speaker 2: the US under Operation paper Clip. He arrived in nineteen 262 00:16:04,000 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 2: forty five, and his wife and his daughter followed him later. 263 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:10,400 Speaker 2: Like Werner von Brown, he started out working for the 264 00:16:10,520 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 2: Ordnance Department of the Research and Development Division under the 265 00:16:13,920 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 2: Department of the Army. At various points, the FBI investigated 266 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:21,840 Speaker 2: him as part of his applications for security clearance and 267 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,640 Speaker 2: his application to work at NASA. In the reports from 268 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 2: these investigations, he's generally described as an excellent production engineer, 269 00:16:30,880 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 2: personally liked by his colleagues, conscientious, honest, trustworthy, and not 270 00:16:36,280 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 2: a potential threat to national security. However, during an investigation 271 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 2: in nineteen fifty three, someone reported that he had been 272 00:16:44,920 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 2: a loyal member of the NSDAP and was quote the 273 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,600 Speaker 2: type of person who would not stop at anything if 274 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,200 Speaker 2: it might further his ambitions. He had a reputation of 275 00:16:55,240 --> 00:16:58,320 Speaker 2: being a person who, in his enthusiasm for the Nazi 276 00:16:58,360 --> 00:17:01,800 Speaker 2: regime could be danger to a fellow employee who did 277 00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 2: not guard his language. That person that gave that statement, 278 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 2: whose name is redacted from the FBI file that's available 279 00:17:09,720 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 2: on the web, later walked that statement back and said 280 00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:15,760 Speaker 2: that they didn't mean to imply that Rudolph was an 281 00:17:15,880 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 2: ardent Nazi, but that he was ambitious and would do 282 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:23,080 Speaker 2: whatever it took to achieve his goals. So Rudolph became 283 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:27,000 Speaker 2: a US citizen on November eleventh, nineteen fifty four. His 284 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:30,120 Speaker 2: work at NASA included being one of the primary architects 285 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 2: of the Saturn five rocket. He retired from NASA in 286 00:17:33,720 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 2: nineteen sixty nine, and from there he became a consultant. 287 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:40,040 Speaker 2: He had received NASA's Distinguished Service Award, which is the 288 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 2: agency's highest honor, as well as other awards. 289 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:46,600 Speaker 1: As we discussed in the previous episode, the Office of 290 00:17:46,640 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: Special Investigations started an investigation into Rudolph after Eli Rosenbaum 291 00:17:51,800 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: found references to him in a couple of books he 292 00:17:54,160 --> 00:17:58,120 Speaker 1: picked up at a bookstore in nineteen eighty. This investigation 293 00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: found that officials in both the US and West Germany 294 00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: had described Rudolph as a war criminal. Rudolf was also 295 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,639 Speaker 1: questioned in nineteen forty seven as officials were preparing to 296 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 1: try nineteen people who were suspected of war crimes at 297 00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:17,560 Speaker 1: the Dora Nordhausen complex. During that questioning, Rudolph said he 298 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: had attended the public mass hanging that we described earlier. 299 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,720 Speaker 1: As operations director at Middelvk. He had also personally received 300 00:18:25,760 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 1: reports about how many prisoners were available to work, how 301 00:18:29,280 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: many had recently arrived, and how many had died or 302 00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: were too ill to work. His office was also right 303 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:40,280 Speaker 1: next to where the public hanging took place. Rudolph maintained 304 00:18:40,280 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 1: his innocence in all of this, but at the same time, 305 00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:47,439 Speaker 1: according to transcripts of OSI interviews, he confirmed that he 306 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:50,720 Speaker 1: knew that prisoners were dying at the facility. There was 307 00:18:50,760 --> 00:18:53,399 Speaker 1: also a clear pay per trail connecting him to the 308 00:18:53,520 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: use of enslaved labor and prisoner abuses at Middelverk. He 309 00:18:57,520 --> 00:19:01,080 Speaker 1: ultimately agreed to renounce his US citizen liasonship and return 310 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,680 Speaker 1: to Germany rather than face a trial for all of this. 311 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:07,439 Speaker 1: At the time he was seventy seven, the West German 312 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 1: government wasn't really pleased about this, since US officials took 313 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: this step without informing them ahead of time. West German 314 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 1: authorities started their own investigation, but by that point the 315 00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: only thing that was still within the statue of limitations 316 00:19:22,200 --> 00:19:25,120 Speaker 1: was murder, and there wasn't enough evidence to try Rudolph 317 00:19:25,160 --> 00:19:26,960 Speaker 1: on that specific charge. 318 00:19:27,359 --> 00:19:29,639 Speaker 2: Rudolph spent most of the rest of his life trying 319 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:32,200 Speaker 2: to clear his name and to return to North America, 320 00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:36,399 Speaker 2: even though he had agreed to leave. After US officials 321 00:19:36,440 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 2: denied his request to have his citizenship restored, he tried 322 00:19:39,520 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 2: to enter Canada, but was denied there as well. During 323 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:47,720 Speaker 2: his hearing with Canadian authorities, Canadian lawyers produced a memo 324 00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 2: that he had written describing the use of slave labor 325 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 2: at another facility in an admiring way and requesting such 326 00:19:54,800 --> 00:19:58,479 Speaker 2: a setup for his own project. A Canadian court ruled 327 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,360 Speaker 2: that he had quote called for, made use of, and 328 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:06,199 Speaker 2: directed the enslaved laborers at Middleverk. Rudolf never returned to 329 00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:09,640 Speaker 2: North America, and he died in nineteen ninety six. Some 330 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:13,400 Speaker 2: of the documentation and statements related to Arthur Rudolph's work 331 00:20:13,400 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 2: in Nazi Germany came to light as part of an 332 00:20:16,080 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 2: investigation into one of his and von Brown's colleagues, George Rickhai, 333 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:25,719 Speaker 2: Director General at MIDDELVK. Rickai's background was a lot like Rudolph's. 334 00:20:25,760 --> 00:20:28,160 Speaker 2: He had joined the Nazi Party in nineteen thirty one 335 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,959 Speaker 2: and went to work for the Reich Ministry for Armament 336 00:20:31,040 --> 00:20:35,639 Speaker 2: and Munitions. Rickkai had become an expert in underground construction. 337 00:20:36,440 --> 00:20:39,720 Speaker 2: He helped design the underground V two factory at Middlverk 338 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:43,879 Speaker 2: and Hitler's underground Bunker, as well as other facilities. To 339 00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:47,080 Speaker 2: be very clear, though, that underground middle work facility had 340 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 2: virtually no ventilation and no plumbing. People used oil barrels 341 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 2: as toilets, and for most of the facilities operation, the 342 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:57,719 Speaker 2: prisoners were sleeping on the ground. So we're not saying 343 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 2: that this design was good or humane, but underground construction 344 00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:04,720 Speaker 2: like this had become his specialty. 345 00:21:05,160 --> 00:21:09,960 Speaker 1: He specialized in being horrible. While Rudolf had been aware 346 00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: of how much forced labor was available for use at 347 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:16,160 Speaker 1: the facility and had received reports on how many people 348 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:20,480 Speaker 1: had died, Rickhai was the person who directly oversaw that labor. 349 00:21:21,119 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: He coordinated with the SS to essentially rent people from 350 00:21:24,720 --> 00:21:28,880 Speaker 1: camps at Middelverk. The rate the SS charged was two 351 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:31,359 Speaker 1: to three Reichs Marks per person per day. 352 00:21:32,440 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 2: But as was the case with von Brown and Rudolph, 353 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:37,840 Speaker 2: Rickai's work on the V two program made him an 354 00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 2: attractive candidate for Operation paper Clip, even though by his 355 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:46,719 Speaker 2: party membership status alone he fit the definition of an 356 00:21:46,880 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 2: ardent Nazi. Like Rudolf, he had joined the party way 357 00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 2: before Hitler had come to power. He arrived in the 358 00:21:54,080 --> 00:21:56,959 Speaker 2: US in nineteen forty five, though, and started working for 359 00:21:57,080 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 2: the US Strategic Bombing Survey and the US Art Army 360 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:04,880 Speaker 2: Air Forces. However, in the summer of nineteen forty six, 361 00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,760 Speaker 2: Rickhai and paper clipper Albert Patten started a black market 362 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,199 Speaker 2: operation at wright Field, where about one hundred forty of 363 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 2: the two hundred plus paper clippers in the US were 364 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 2: then working. Aircraft engineer Herman Nelson seems to have gotten 365 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 2: into a personal dispute with them. One night, when Rickai 366 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,560 Speaker 2: and Patten were playing a late night poker game in 367 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:29,160 Speaker 2: their housing facility, which was known as Hilltop, Nilsen got 368 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 2: frustrated with their noisiness and told them to keep it down. 369 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 2: Patten and Rickai refused, and Rickhai made an offensive joke 370 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 2: that alluded to Nazi atrocities against Jewish people. In response, 371 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:44,679 Speaker 2: Nelson filed a complaint with Colonel Donald L. Putt, saying 372 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 2: that Patten was an ardent Nazi and an Essay member, 373 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 2: and that Ricky had orchestrated the mass hanging at Middelverk 374 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,960 Speaker 2: that was meant to deter sabotage. Putt doesn't seem to 375 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 2: have taken any action on this, but Nelson also vented 376 00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 2: his frustrations in a letter to a friend in New 377 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 2: York and that caught the eye of the censors who 378 00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 2: were reading the paper Clippers mail. This sparked an investigation 379 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:10,200 Speaker 2: during which it became clear that many paper Clippers were 380 00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:14,040 Speaker 2: willing to cover up one another's involvement in Nazi activities 381 00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:17,679 Speaker 2: and war crimes. At around the same time, investigators in 382 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:21,160 Speaker 2: Germany found rick Heai's name on an employee contact list 383 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 2: at Middelwerk. An investigator in Germany also spotted rick Heai's 384 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:29,160 Speaker 2: name in an article about his application for US citizenship. 385 00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:32,840 Speaker 2: So all of this came together and Ricky was indicted 386 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:35,879 Speaker 2: and returned to Germany to stand trial at the US 387 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,160 Speaker 2: led war crimes trials that were held at the site 388 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,840 Speaker 2: of the Dachau concentration camp. These were separate from the 389 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 2: international trials that were held at Nuremberg. When Ricky was indicted, 390 00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:50,679 Speaker 2: he had just signed a new five year contract to 391 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:51,679 Speaker 2: work with the Army. 392 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 1: Rickhai became one of nineteen defendants in the Dora Nordhausen 393 00:23:56,119 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 1: trial that was held at Dachau. Of those nineteen, Rickai 394 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:01,760 Speaker 1: was the only one who had worked at the Middle 395 00:24:01,880 --> 00:24:06,320 Speaker 1: Verk facility rather than at the concentration camps themselves, But 396 00:24:06,400 --> 00:24:09,560 Speaker 1: the evidence that was presented at his trial was contradictory. 397 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:13,800 Speaker 1: Although some witnesses connected him to war crimes at the facility, 398 00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:18,200 Speaker 1: there were other researchers, including Vernon von Brown, who submitted 399 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: affidavits in his defense, there wasn't clear written documentation to 400 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:26,720 Speaker 1: connect Ricki to war crimes carried out at the facility. 401 00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,600 Speaker 1: Rickai was one of four people who were acquitted, and 402 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,560 Speaker 1: the Army then classified the records from the trial. 403 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:37,120 Speaker 2: We will talk about one more paper clipper after another 404 00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 2: quick sponsor break. So far, everyone we've talked about in 405 00:24:49,600 --> 00:24:53,199 Speaker 2: this episode was connected to the Middleverirk weapons factory. They 406 00:24:53,240 --> 00:24:56,880 Speaker 2: had kind of interconnected careers with one another in Germany. 407 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,440 Speaker 2: And while there were a lot of rocket scientists and 408 00:25:00,600 --> 00:25:04,240 Speaker 2: engineers from that facility who became part of Operation paper Clip, 409 00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 2: there were also specialists from lots and lots of other fields, 410 00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:15,400 Speaker 2: including medicine, chemistry, chemical and biological warfare, aircraft design, architecture, 411 00:25:15,720 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 2: and electronics. So we're going to end this episode with 412 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,919 Speaker 2: one of those. Hubertas Strughold has been nicknamed the father 413 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 2: of space medicine. He actually coined the terms space medicine 414 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 2: and astrobiology after World War II. Strughold started out working 415 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,679 Speaker 2: for the US in Germany and then he moved to 416 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 2: Texas as part of Operation paper Clip. He became a 417 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:41,160 Speaker 2: US citizen in nineteen fifty six. After joining NASA, Strughold 418 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,840 Speaker 2: developed a space cabin simulator as well as the space 419 00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,400 Speaker 2: suits that the first astronauts wore. He was the first 420 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:52,439 Speaker 2: professor of space medicine at the world's first Department of 421 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,480 Speaker 2: Space Medicine, which was established at the Air Force School 422 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:59,840 Speaker 2: of Aviation Medicine. Strughold was a true trailblazer in his field, 423 00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 2: and for a time there were also a lot of 424 00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:06,200 Speaker 2: awards and honors and buildings and things like that named 425 00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:09,640 Speaker 2: after him because of his just truly enormous contributions to this. 426 00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 2: In terms of his work in Nazi Germany, for ten 427 00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,440 Speaker 2: of the twelve years that Hitler was in power, he 428 00:26:16,520 --> 00:26:19,639 Speaker 2: was the director of the Aviation Medical Research Institute for 429 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,040 Speaker 2: the Reich Air Ministry. This was one of several research 430 00:26:23,160 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 2: institutes in Germany that were working at the intersection of 431 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:29,199 Speaker 2: medicine and flight. After the start of World War II, 432 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:32,639 Speaker 2: these institutes became part of the Luftwaffe and at that 433 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,600 Speaker 2: point Strughold became an officer. Strughold was one of the 434 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:40,520 Speaker 2: very few paper clippers who never joined the Nazi Party, 435 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:44,320 Speaker 2: and there is some evidence that he was anti Nazi 436 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,320 Speaker 2: or politically neutral. However, by the end of the war 437 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 2: he was also on the Central Registry of War Criminals 438 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 2: and Security Suspects or the crocust List. We mentioned that 439 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,199 Speaker 2: list in the previous episode. This was a giant compilation 440 00:26:59,400 --> 00:27:02,720 Speaker 2: of suspect did war criminals. It was a multi volume 441 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 2: list containing the names of about sixty thousand people. Some 442 00:27:07,200 --> 00:27:11,479 Speaker 2: were known to have committed war crimes, some were suspected. 443 00:27:11,240 --> 00:27:14,840 Speaker 1: Some weren't really suspected. They were wanted for questioning or. 444 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 2: As witnesses, and as we discussed last time, this list 445 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 2: could be all over the place in terms of whose 446 00:27:20,840 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 2: name was on it and how that name got there, 447 00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,720 Speaker 2: and how much substantiation there was for whatever had led 448 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:27,639 Speaker 2: them to be included. 449 00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:32,640 Speaker 1: While Strughold was director of the Aviation Medical Research Institute, Luftwaffa, 450 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:36,200 Speaker 1: doctors and members of the SS were carrying out experiments 451 00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 1: on human beings, and some of these experiments were related 452 00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:43,159 Speaker 1: to Struggold's field of work. Many German pilots who had 453 00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 1: been shot down over the English Channel during the Battle 454 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 1: of Britain in nineteen forty had survived the initial crash 455 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: but died of hypothermia before they could be pulled from 456 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: the water, So the Luftwaffe wanted to figure out the 457 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 1: body's limits and whether it was possible to resuscitate people 458 00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: who had died of exposure to cold. They did this 459 00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,320 Speaker 1: by plunging both animals and people into icy water until 460 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 1: they died and then trying to revive them. 461 00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 2: Other experiments that Luftfaffa doctors conducted on human subjects included 462 00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:19,240 Speaker 2: using hypoxia chambers to simulate exposure to extreme altitude and 463 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:23,400 Speaker 2: forcing people to ingest seawater. Most of these experiments were 464 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,280 Speaker 2: carried out at the Dachau concentration camp. Some of them 465 00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,160 Speaker 2: were fatal experiments also, and many of the people who 466 00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 2: had carried these experiments out had either been killed or 467 00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,439 Speaker 2: died by suicide by the end of the war, but 468 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 2: a lot of those who were still living ultimately faced 469 00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:44,840 Speaker 2: trial at Nuremberg. Struggold actually submitted affidavits in some of 470 00:28:44,880 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 2: these trials, and his name came up in questioning at 471 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:50,480 Speaker 2: various points, but he was not put on trial himself. 472 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: Struggle definitely knew about at least some of this research, 473 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: particularly the freezing experiments. He attended a conference in nineteen 474 00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: forty two where the researchers talked about their results, and 475 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: he commented on their work after that presentation. When asked 476 00:29:06,560 --> 00:29:09,320 Speaker 1: about it later, he stressed that the experiments had been 477 00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:12,920 Speaker 1: done on criminals, but also said that he generally didn't 478 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,840 Speaker 1: approve of work that was conducted on non consenting human subjects. 479 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: He said he didn't allow such experiments at the Institute, 480 00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: although by that point the Institute was part of the 481 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 1: Luftwaffe and the Luftwaffe was carrying out such experiments. However, 482 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,719 Speaker 1: there are a lot of unanswered questions about exactly how 483 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:38,160 Speaker 1: much Strugghold knew about this research when he knew about it, 484 00:29:38,600 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: whether it was in his power to stop it, and 485 00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: whether he helped cover up its existence or the involvement 486 00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:48,520 Speaker 1: of his colleagues, and some early interrogations, he and other 487 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:53,760 Speaker 1: researchers generally penned all these human experiments on doctor Sigmund Rascher, 488 00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: who had been involved in the hypoxia and hypothermia experiments. 489 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: Rasher and his wife had both been executed by order 490 00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:06,719 Speaker 1: of Heinrich Himmler in nineteen forty five. Strugghold described Rascher 491 00:30:06,800 --> 00:30:10,800 Speaker 1: as quote fringe, and he and others described these experiments 492 00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: sort of as the work of one deranged, clearly unethical man. 493 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:18,680 Speaker 1: But it became clear that Rascher didn't do this work 494 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 1: alone and that many other Luftwaffa doctors had been directly involved. 495 00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: Many of the experiments had been approved by Heinrich Himmler 496 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: or by high ranking Luftwaffa officers, and they had been 497 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:33,479 Speaker 1: supervised by Luftwaffa doctors and by people who worked at 498 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 1: other German research institutes, including the Institute for Aviation Medicine 499 00:30:38,240 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 1: in Munich. Some of the people who ran these experiments. 500 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: Had also been close working colleagues with Hubert as Strughold, 501 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,080 Speaker 1: including co authoring papers with him. 502 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 2: But at the same time, that's pretty circumstantial enough people 503 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 2: connected to Strugghold knew about or were directly involved in 504 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 2: these experiments that it seems like he should have known 505 00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,000 Speaker 2: the details of what was going on beyond just hearing 506 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 2: other researchers talk about it at that one conference in 507 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:11,040 Speaker 2: nineteen forty two, but we don't know whether he actually 508 00:31:11,120 --> 00:31:14,400 Speaker 2: did or whether he took any action based on that knowledge. 509 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 1: Struggold was investigated in connection to this several times. The 510 00:31:19,520 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: first was under Operation paper Clip, but at this point 511 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,960 Speaker 1: it's obviously hard to trust that the reports created for 512 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:29,920 Speaker 1: Operation paper Clip were thorough or complete. The second was 513 00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,239 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty eight after a magazine article alleged that 514 00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 1: Strughold had done research on human subjects. That investigation was 515 00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 1: dropped after the Air Force released a statement that he 516 00:31:40,480 --> 00:31:42,080 Speaker 1: had already been investigated. 517 00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:47,160 Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy three, THENS opened an investigation into thirty 518 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 2: five suspected war criminals, and Strugghold was one of them, 519 00:31:51,400 --> 00:31:54,160 Speaker 2: but the ions eventually closed that case due to a 520 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 2: lack of evidence. After this, Strughold maintained that he had 521 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 2: already been cleared of all suspicion before entering the United States. 522 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 2: Then the OSI opened another investigation in nineteen eighty three, 523 00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 2: but Strugghold died in nineteen eighty six, so at that 524 00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 2: point that investigation was closed. One experiment that Strughold was 525 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 2: more clearly connected to involved exposing children with epilepsy to 526 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 2: simulated high altitudes to see if it was possible to 527 00:32:23,280 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 2: induce seizures in susceptible people. That experiment took place in 528 00:32:27,960 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 2: nineteen forty three at the institute that Strughold was running. 529 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:35,080 Speaker 2: It doesn't seem like any of the children were seriously harmed, 530 00:32:35,120 --> 00:32:39,520 Speaker 2: but the experiment also didn't conform to the institute's ethical guidelines. 531 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:43,320 Speaker 2: This came to light in nineteen ninety three, so years 532 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 2: after Strughold's death. Regardless of what his true level of 533 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:53,280 Speaker 2: involvement was in Nazi experiments onto human beings, these allegations 534 00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 2: and the investigations really affected Strughold's reputation. Most of the 535 00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 2: honors and awards that used to be named after him 536 00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:04,080 Speaker 2: him have since been renamed or retired. Portraits of him 537 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:08,000 Speaker 2: at academic and medical institutions have mostly been removed or 538 00:33:08,040 --> 00:33:12,520 Speaker 2: covered up. Even though his influence on space medicine was 539 00:33:12,560 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 2: really comparable to Werner von Brown's influence on space exploration, 540 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 2: the amount of public information and laudatory write ups on 541 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:23,560 Speaker 2: the two men just do not compare. You can go 542 00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:26,560 Speaker 2: look for stuff on Werner von Brown, read about it 543 00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:29,640 Speaker 2: all day. It's a lot harder to find information on 544 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 2: h purchased Strughold. He still has his staunch defenders, though, 545 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,520 Speaker 2: who point out that there's just no solid evidence directly 546 00:33:37,560 --> 00:33:41,040 Speaker 2: connecting him to some of these experiments. They point out 547 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 2: various flaws and people who have tried to make those connections, 548 00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,200 Speaker 2: some of which have like conflated two different German research 549 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,240 Speaker 2: institutes into one thing when they really weren't. 550 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,560 Speaker 1: So that is where we're going to wrap up today. 551 00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 1: But to be clear, this episode is of course not 552 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,239 Speaker 1: remotely comprehensive. As we noted at the top, there were 553 00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:03,480 Speaker 1: about sixteen hundred specialists brought into the US under Operation 554 00:34:03,600 --> 00:34:07,440 Speaker 1: paper Clip. Annie Jacobson's book Operation paper Clip, which was 555 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:10,319 Speaker 1: one of the sources for these two episodes, focuses on 556 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,400 Speaker 1: just twenty one of them. So even though that is 557 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:15,200 Speaker 1: much more comprehensive, it's still just a tiny portion of 558 00:34:15,239 --> 00:34:18,320 Speaker 1: the total. And like this episode, it's not really focused 559 00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,560 Speaker 1: on researchers who may have really fit the descriptions that 560 00:34:21,640 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: Operation paper Clip was using to describe the specialists it 561 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:30,399 Speaker 1: was recruiting. I every time we look at these and 562 00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,759 Speaker 1: really any you know, post World War two discussions of 563 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: the people who had been part of that conflict and 564 00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:40,799 Speaker 1: involved with things like this, I'm always surprised when I 565 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 1: have those moments of like, huh, that person was still 566 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,280 Speaker 1: alive the year I got married, Like I G. Yeah, 567 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: it places it so deeply in my own lifetime that 568 00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,279 Speaker 1: I have to remind myself that like, this was not 569 00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:57,279 Speaker 1: as long ago as we think of often. 570 00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 2: Right right well. And then in addition to that, at 571 00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:06,200 Speaker 2: one of the things that just kept continually striking me 572 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 2: as I was working on this and the earlier episode 573 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 2: is that after World War Two, there was this whole 574 00:35:11,600 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 2: effort to just denazify Germany and to remove Nazis from 575 00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:20,439 Speaker 2: positions of power and to try to place people into 576 00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:25,359 Speaker 2: positions of power who didn't have Nazi sympathies or connections 577 00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:27,799 Speaker 2: to the Nazi Party. But then there was this whole 578 00:35:27,840 --> 00:35:29,919 Speaker 2: effort in the United States that was like, well, we'll 579 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,759 Speaker 2: take them though and give them us citizenship, which is 580 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,880 Speaker 2: a little weird considering the work that the United States 581 00:35:36,920 --> 00:35:39,880 Speaker 2: was doing in Germany. We also said in the previous 582 00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,200 Speaker 2: episode that the United States was not the only person 583 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,200 Speaker 2: that was exploiting the knowledge and talents of all these 584 00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:49,600 Speaker 2: German specialists, but for the most part, other countries were 585 00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:52,000 Speaker 2: doing that on a more short term basis, often actually 586 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:54,560 Speaker 2: in Germany, not bringing people into their own countries and 587 00:35:54,600 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 2: then allowing them to become citizens. Thanks so much for 588 00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,080 Speaker 2: joining us on this Saturday. If you'd like to send 589 00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:09,960 Speaker 2: us a note, our email addresses History Podcast at iHeartRadio 590 00:36:10,120 --> 00:36:13,000 Speaker 2: dot com, and you can subscribe to the show on 591 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 592 00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:17,520 Speaker 2: your favorite shows.