1 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan. Anybody that knows me 2 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 1: knows that over the past few years, I've developed a 3 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:28,800 Speaker 1: real love of water. And I don't mean to say 4 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,639 Speaker 1: that in the sense that I finally discovered showering for 5 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: the first time in my life. What I mean by 6 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: that is the fact that I acquired an old boat. 7 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: It's nothing fancy, it's good enough for me and my 8 00:00:40,360 --> 00:00:42,879 Speaker 1: precious wife, and I spent a lot of time on 9 00:00:42,920 --> 00:00:45,919 Speaker 1: the local river, just cruising up and down it. Sometimes 10 00:00:45,960 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: we anchor out in a little cove and there's actually 11 00:00:48,800 --> 00:00:52,760 Speaker 1: these little islands on this river that we go to 12 00:00:52,800 --> 00:00:55,440 Speaker 1: and we'll kind of ground a boat and build a 13 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:58,880 Speaker 1: fire and sit there and just talk about life and 14 00:00:58,920 --> 00:01:02,279 Speaker 1: listen to music. Matter of fact, probably my favorite thing 15 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:04,400 Speaker 1: to listen to is Van Morrison. While I'm sitting there, 16 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 1: I could listen to him for hours. But today I'm 17 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 1: going to talk about another river, and actually a lake 18 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:15,360 Speaker 1: that is part of the bigger river is what we 19 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:20,199 Speaker 1: call an impoundment. The river is actually the Colorado River, 20 00:01:20,240 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 1: and I think that just by name alone, you would 21 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,240 Speaker 1: probably think, oh wow, this must run right through the 22 00:01:25,240 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 1: heart of the rocky mountains and no, it doesn't. It 23 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: actually is a few states away. It runs through Texas, 24 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:38,479 Speaker 1: and there's one spot in this river that has been 25 00:01:38,600 --> 00:01:44,320 Speaker 1: declared a lake in the lake's name is Ladybird Lake 26 00:01:45,400 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. Is there a serial killer at work there? 27 00:01:52,480 --> 00:01:56,320 Speaker 1: Let's talk about it. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this 28 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: is Bodybags. David. Know you think I'm lying to your brother, 29 00:02:03,720 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: but I'm going to take you out to my boat. 30 00:02:06,560 --> 00:02:08,600 Speaker 1: We're just gonna cruise up and down the river. You're 31 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: gonna hang out, get some sunshine. But you never have 32 00:02:11,560 --> 00:02:13,160 Speaker 1: Tom You're always working. 33 00:02:13,400 --> 00:02:15,320 Speaker 2: You know, I'll make the time to go to the river. 34 00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 2: But I'm a little concerned that you want to, you know, 35 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:21,680 Speaker 2: invite me down to the river the day we're doing 36 00:02:21,720 --> 00:02:26,919 Speaker 2: a show about possibly the Ladybird Lake Killer, the Rainy 37 00:02:26,960 --> 00:02:29,880 Speaker 2: Street Killer, whatever you want to name him or her 38 00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 2: for Austin, Texas, a serial killer on the loose. Possibly maybe, 39 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:36,040 Speaker 2: I don't know. But that's when you want to invite 40 00:02:36,080 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 2: me to the river. Is when we're talking about death 41 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:42,079 Speaker 2: around a body of water. Thanks, Joe. Let's get into 42 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 2: this though. Today we're looking at Ladybird Lake, which I 43 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 2: didn't know anything about until I started looking into this 44 00:02:49,720 --> 00:02:54,160 Speaker 2: idea that some people believe there is a serial killer 45 00:02:54,280 --> 00:02:58,760 Speaker 2: at work and they call him the Ladybird Killer or 46 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 2: the Rainy Street killer. And these are people in that 47 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:06,160 Speaker 2: local area in Austin, which Austin has been a very 48 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:09,119 Speaker 2: hot spot over the last several years. A lot of yeah, 49 00:03:09,160 --> 00:03:11,800 Speaker 2: the entertainment world. A lot of people moved to Austin 50 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 2: and own property in things in Austin. 51 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,280 Speaker 1: So, yeah, try to pay rent there by the way, 52 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: Is that bad? Oh my gosh. I've had two friends 53 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:22,919 Speaker 1: from California that moved there and they said, wow, really Yeah, 54 00:03:23,080 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 1: Look when Joe Rogan shows up in a place like 55 00:03:25,160 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: that and he puts roots down there, you've got all 56 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: these other people that are moving in from the entertainment industry. 57 00:03:30,480 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's going to get pricey. It doesn't going to 58 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 2: bee immediately. Yeah, but the bottom line being the bottom 59 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,520 Speaker 2: line in life, you have two choices. You can either 60 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 2: choose a path that brings you joy and satisfaction, or 61 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:46,440 Speaker 2: you can choose another way. Life is like that, Yeah, 62 00:03:46,520 --> 00:03:50,760 Speaker 2: and I choose to I choose to do something I 63 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:53,280 Speaker 2: believe makes a difference and what you and I do 64 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 2: on a daily basis dealing with crime, the after effects 65 00:03:56,960 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 2: of crime, solving solving crimes in terms of the body 66 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:07,120 Speaker 2: and what happened to me. There are people every day 67 00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 2: that are You and I both agreed there's no such 68 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:12,120 Speaker 2: thing as closure, but there are people who are being 69 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:15,760 Speaker 2: emotionally satisfied by understanding things a little bit better of 70 00:04:15,800 --> 00:04:19,440 Speaker 2: what happened to their loved one or in our case, 71 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 2: many times we're speaking for the person who can't speak 72 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 2: for themselves anymore. And that's very important as a human 73 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 2: being to understand that life is precious, and too many 74 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 2: times it is disregarded. We have people that are growing 75 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:37,520 Speaker 2: up that don't believe that. They do not believe life 76 00:04:37,600 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 2: is precious. 77 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:44,680 Speaker 1: No, they don't, and I think that there are It's 78 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: sad enough in the case of all of these deaths, 79 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: and there's a willbarrow full of them. 80 00:04:52,320 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 2: That's the thing, Joe here, that we actually have to 81 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 2: separate the ones out that we think might be connected. 82 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a luminous It's sad enough that these people 83 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:07,240 Speaker 1: are found deceased, because with everybody that you find along 84 00:05:07,279 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 1: the way, there is a family that's out there. I 85 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: like to use the idea of the empty chair, there's 86 00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,680 Speaker 1: an empty chair around somebody's table that will never be 87 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: occupied by that person again, and it's absolutely heartbreaking when 88 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:29,159 Speaker 1: you see it played out over and over again. And 89 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: some of the issues with these so called Ladybird Lake 90 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:40,520 Speaker 1: deaths is that there's not connectivity necessarily with a lot 91 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 1: of these things. It's not a vast area. I think 92 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:47,480 Speaker 1: it's just over four hundred acres this lake is, and 93 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:52,679 Speaker 1: by many people's estimations, that's not a huge, huge lake. 94 00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 1: You know, you consider some of the places that are 95 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 1: out there, but it's significant enough, and you've got multiple 96 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: points of entry, and we can go in to that. 97 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:05,080 Speaker 1: But it's just the idea that just because you have 98 00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: people being found deceased in a location does not a 99 00:06:09,320 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: serial event make and you have to be very very 100 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 1: careful with that, and particularly in you know, when I 101 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,600 Speaker 1: look at it through my eyes and try to take 102 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:22,719 Speaker 1: the long view of it, and I think about the 103 00:06:22,800 --> 00:06:27,240 Speaker 1: serial events that I was involved in as an investigator 104 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,800 Speaker 1: over the years, both in New Orleans and Atlanta, words 105 00:06:33,120 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: have to be chosen very very carefully because you can 106 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: literally send people into a frenzy. And one of my 107 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:49,200 Speaker 1: favorite movies of all time is Jaws. I love the 108 00:06:49,200 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: book too, but I love the movie because it's so 109 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:54,920 Speaker 1: the characters, you know, just kind of pop to life. 110 00:06:55,680 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: And the mayor in that who's this real smarmy guy. 111 00:07:00,520 --> 00:07:05,359 Speaker 1: He's admonishing the sheriff in this thing because the sheriff Brodie, 112 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:11,880 Speaker 1: he's trying to secure the beach and he says, wait 113 00:07:11,920 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: a minute, he says, you say bear Kuda, And people say, 114 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:19,200 Speaker 1: what huh you say, shark? You got a panic on 115 00:07:19,240 --> 00:07:24,280 Speaker 1: your hands. And we've seen this played out now Loath 116 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,800 Speaker 1: these many months, you know, and just within the last 117 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: couple of weeks, they've recovered two more bodies out of 118 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:39,320 Speaker 1: Ladybird Lake. And just like words can damage people, you know, 119 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:44,320 Speaker 1: you say things to people, maybe loved ones, You use 120 00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:50,760 Speaker 1: certain terms, you say things that are not necessarily what edifying. 121 00:07:52,280 --> 00:07:56,640 Speaker 1: When you throw out the term serial killer into a community, 122 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: you damage that community. And before we talk about anything else, 123 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 1: I'm in no position to admonish anybody, but I would suggest, 124 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:11,200 Speaker 1: strongly suggest that people begin to kind of throttle back 125 00:08:12,400 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: their rhetoric in regards to this, because now you've got 126 00:08:17,520 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: you're building reputations here, a reputation of a location where 127 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:25,800 Speaker 1: I'm sure that there have been great times had by 128 00:08:25,800 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: many people along the shores there. This place was first 129 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,080 Speaker 1: impounded I think back in the sixties, and for long, 130 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:34,440 Speaker 1: a long time, it was regarded as an ey sore 131 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,200 Speaker 1: and until you know, the former first lady stepped in, 132 00:08:40,360 --> 00:08:43,880 Speaker 1: Lady Bird Johnson, and you know, began to work on 133 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:48,240 Speaker 1: this and establish it, clean it up it was. It 134 00:08:48,280 --> 00:08:54,280 Speaker 1: was considered a not so desirous location. But now you know, 135 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:56,840 Speaker 1: and I listen, just a few years ago, I've got 136 00:08:56,840 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: to I got to make it, admit this. I'd never 137 00:09:00,200 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: been to this location before, but just a couple of 138 00:09:02,920 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 1: years ago, Kim and I went to Crime Con when 139 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:10,040 Speaker 1: it was held in Austin. We had a blast there. 140 00:09:10,080 --> 00:09:12,160 Speaker 1: By the way, I love the city, I love the 141 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: time that we spent there. But I got to see 142 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 1: this place, and I got to tell you when I 143 00:09:16,559 --> 00:09:18,680 Speaker 1: was looking at it, Dave, I didn't really know what 144 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: I was looking. I thought I was looking at a river. 145 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 1: And it is technically a river, it's the Colorado River, 146 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:26,240 Speaker 1: but it's kind of quaterned off because you've got dams, yeah, 147 00:09:26,280 --> 00:09:28,480 Speaker 1: on each end, and that kind of plays into a 148 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: lot about what we're going to talk about today. 149 00:09:30,280 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 2: They diverted it to create a cooling bond for power plant, 150 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:36,319 Speaker 2: is what it amounts to. It actually has a reason, 151 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:38,840 Speaker 2: you know, for being there. The reason it exists, it 152 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:42,640 Speaker 2: actually has. It wasn't natural, you know, it was created 153 00:09:42,760 --> 00:09:45,200 Speaker 2: and as you mentioned, you get too damn. You've got 154 00:09:45,200 --> 00:09:47,720 Speaker 2: a lot of issues going on and a lot of bodies. 155 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,880 Speaker 2: But just to give you an idea, Ladybird Lake built 156 00:09:51,920 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty it is you mentioned, a four hundred 157 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,960 Speaker 2: and sixteen acre lake. It is primarily used for recreation now, 158 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 2: but there have been so many deaths reported in the 159 00:10:03,880 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 2: last couple of years that depending on how you want 160 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 2: to frame the story, you could talk about twenty deaths, 161 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 2: you could talk about four deaths. And I think it's 162 00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 2: being very dismissive to just say nothing is linked here. 163 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:21,840 Speaker 2: These are all just isolated incidents. And because some of 164 00:10:21,840 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 2: them are, but some are not right. And that's why 165 00:10:25,679 --> 00:10:29,120 Speaker 2: when I was trying to pull it all together, Joe, 166 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 2: there was for me. It started with a story of 167 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 2: a person who saw a body in the lake and 168 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 2: was like poking it with a stick kind of thing, 169 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:39,720 Speaker 2: calling the police, you know, and it's that it was 170 00:10:39,760 --> 00:10:43,760 Speaker 2: like another body found in Ladybird Lake. And when you 171 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 2: start identifying all of them as one, I think you 172 00:10:48,559 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 2: hurt families that are mourning because you've just lumped their 173 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 2: family victim into this pool very quickly. The Gilgo Beach murders, 174 00:10:59,440 --> 00:11:02,360 Speaker 2: you know, Rex Chureman gets arrested, and people say, okay, 175 00:11:02,360 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 2: we got the we have a suspect in the you 176 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,199 Speaker 2: know what, we got a suspect in four. There's ten 177 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 2: bodies we're dealing with here. Yeah, there's something else at work. 178 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 2: And now is it getting any attention? No? 179 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: No, totally will listen. Hey, look from when I was 180 00:11:17,559 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 1: a child, uh you know, uh you know I remember 181 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:29,880 Speaker 1: uh the missing murdered children in Atlanta with Wayne Williams. Yeah, okay, Well, 182 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: first off, Wayne Williams was never convicted of killing a child. 183 00:11:34,360 --> 00:11:39,359 Speaker 1: People he was convicted of one in particular were adults 184 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:46,280 Speaker 1: and the male yeah, male male escorts. And here's one 185 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:50,080 Speaker 1: other thing. When he was incarcerated, children did stop dying 186 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 1: in Atlanta. Uh So you know, you have to be 187 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 1: very very careful. And that's why we have practices in 188 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: that are you know, associate with death investigation. You have 189 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,840 Speaker 1: practices of people at profile individuals. They take all of 190 00:12:04,880 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 1: this data and put it together. And contrary to what 191 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:10,960 Speaker 1: you see on television, the life of a profiler is 192 00:12:10,960 --> 00:12:14,080 Speaker 1: not this kind of sexy thing where they're riding around 193 00:12:14,080 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: in a cool car and going out to scenes. Most 194 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 1: of the scenes that are involved in these cases in 195 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:26,280 Speaker 1: serialized events are gone. They're not showing up fresh. It's 196 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:28,600 Speaker 1: a lot of work spent at a desk and talking 197 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 1: to people and analyzing data. And my way of thinking 198 00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:37,640 Speaker 1: is has all of the data been assessed? Because when 199 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:41,800 Speaker 1: you do things like statistical analyzes, you have to consider 200 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: everything race, gender, location, and also more importantly, you have 201 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:56,719 Speaker 1: to consider time. How long have bodies been popping up 202 00:12:57,600 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: in Lady Bird Lake. I found in life that for me, 203 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: at least, I can't speak to anybody else. But if 204 00:13:22,480 --> 00:13:26,120 Speaker 1: I have a task, it's better to compartmentalize things, to 205 00:13:26,200 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: take it piece by piece. The old adage, how do 206 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 1: you eat an elephant? You you do it one bite 207 00:13:31,920 --> 00:13:39,000 Speaker 1: at a time. And I look at I look at 208 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: this data relative to these Ladybird Lake bodies, and I 209 00:13:48,480 --> 00:13:52,800 Speaker 1: want to ask, a, you're such a great wordsmith here, 210 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:56,240 Speaker 1: holy moly, give it give us an give us an 211 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,839 Speaker 1: idea kind of frame it out for us. What kind 212 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:02,600 Speaker 1: of numbers are we looking that with. You know, normally 213 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:04,679 Speaker 1: when you and I are talking, right, I say, you know, 214 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: tell us a little bit something about the case. Well, 215 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:09,559 Speaker 1: here we go, tell us a little bit something about 216 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:12,720 Speaker 1: the cases, right, because that's very, very very important. Here. 217 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,880 Speaker 2: The blurred lines are because of the numbers here. There 218 00:14:15,880 --> 00:14:18,400 Speaker 2: have been a lot of bodies pulled out of the lake. 219 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:23,000 Speaker 2: Ten reported deaths since twenty twenty two, four in twenty 220 00:14:23,040 --> 00:14:25,360 Speaker 2: twenty two, five and twenty twenty three, one in the 221 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:28,760 Speaker 2: past month, actually two in the past month. Now that 222 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 2: shows you how this has changed as I've begun reporting 223 00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:36,160 Speaker 2: and putting these things together. So just dealing with those 224 00:14:36,200 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 2: ten and by the way, we can go up to 225 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 2: twenty depending on how far back you go anyho oh exactly. 226 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:45,160 Speaker 2: And I was telling Joe earlier that there are deaths 227 00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 2: that happen around. 228 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 1: Water all the time, all the time. 229 00:14:48,080 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 2: And so you can't just lump them all together and 230 00:14:51,440 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 2: pretend there's a serial killer that has killed twenty two people, 231 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 2: you know, at Ladybird Lake. That would be tantamount to 232 00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 2: accusing Ted Bundy of killing everybody that died of lake. 233 00:15:00,120 --> 00:15:02,640 Speaker 2: Someamish back in the seventies. He didn't do that. 234 00:15:03,640 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: Hey, I got to tell you something, you know. I 235 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:08,280 Speaker 1: was talking about my boat earlier last summer. We were 236 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: actually sitting on the dock and yeah, oh well, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Now, 237 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:18,840 Speaker 1: we watched a guy that was so drunk he fell 238 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: off of his boat like a couple of times. 239 00:15:21,840 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 2: Wow. 240 00:15:22,720 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: We alerted the people across the way, and there was 241 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:27,760 Speaker 1: a wileye fishery guy that rode around a boat. We 242 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: let him know about it. And the guy, per our witness, 243 00:15:32,640 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: had gotten back into the boat each time with a 244 00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: lot of difficulty and help from his friends. While we 245 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: were just sitting on our dock. Three hours later, they 246 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:45,400 Speaker 1: were dragging the river. Oh man, and that was across 247 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: away from us. We'd cruised up the river. This guy died. 248 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 1: He fell off of his boat and drowned. Water water 249 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: is like dealing with a rattlesnake. If you don't know 250 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,960 Speaker 1: what you're doing, it is deadly. It is deadly. Our bodies, 251 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:04,520 Speaker 1: ye are not equipped to be in a water environment. 252 00:16:04,600 --> 00:16:08,760 Speaker 1: And so all you have to do is mix alcohol, drugs, 253 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: a health problem, anything can come up, and you can wander. 254 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:14,360 Speaker 1: If you're adjacent to a lake, you can fall in. 255 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 2: And we actually have a situation just like that. Joe, 256 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:22,200 Speaker 2: one of the typical cases or boy that that sounds dismissive, 257 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 2: it's not. There's a guy named Jason John. Jason John 258 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:30,160 Speaker 2: died day before Valentine's Day last year twenty twenty three. 259 00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 2: In the autopsy report, the Travis County Medical Examiner's Office 260 00:16:33,920 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 2: determined his cause of death was drowning and the manner 261 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 2: of death was ruled accidental. 262 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:40,360 Speaker 1: Yes. 263 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 2: According to the reports, thirty year old man Jason John 264 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:52,000 Speaker 2: was witnessed by a bystander to be vomiting by the 265 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 2: bank of Lady Bird Lake and then subsequently falling and 266 00:16:57,120 --> 00:17:00,880 Speaker 2: subverged into the water in the early morning of February fifth. 267 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 2: I said February thirteenth, the minute ago, that's when it 268 00:17:03,360 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 2: was ruled to drowing. I apologize. But on February fifth, 269 00:17:07,520 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 2: he falls into the water and this transient which means homeless, 270 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,119 Speaker 2: homeless guy sees him fall into the water, tries to 271 00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:17,200 Speaker 2: get him out and can't get him out. The transient 272 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 2: guy goes to a hotel and calls nine to one 273 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 2: one and by the time they get there they couldn't 274 00:17:21,040 --> 00:17:21,720 Speaker 2: find him. 275 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:24,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, he's gone. Somep surface at that point, yep. 276 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 2: And toxicology report showed, you know, alcohol was in his system, 277 00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 2: no illegal drugs, no significant internal or external injuries, no fractures, 278 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,520 Speaker 2: no traumatic injuries, nothing, just he got really drunk and 279 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 2: apparently fell in the lake and drowned. 280 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 1: Well, let me throw this out to you since we're 281 00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:46,440 Speaker 1: talking in broad terms about cereal perpetrators. First off, I've 282 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:49,879 Speaker 1: I'm thinking back right now, going through my I've got 283 00:17:49,920 --> 00:17:53,720 Speaker 1: an imaginary paper file index going through in my mind 284 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:58,920 Speaker 1: right now, and I'm thinking I have I don't think 285 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:03,359 Speaker 1: I have ever encountered, even with friends and things that 286 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: I've read, I don't think that I have ever encountered 287 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,679 Speaker 1: a case of serial homicide. Somebody will probably prove me 288 00:18:09,720 --> 00:18:15,560 Speaker 1: wrong involving using water, and specifically a body of water 289 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:19,560 Speaker 1: as a means to kill somebody. Now, can't homicides be 290 00:18:20,600 --> 00:18:25,600 Speaker 1: accomplished these are the water, Yes they can, they can, 291 00:18:25,720 --> 00:18:31,400 Speaker 1: But those are those generally, in my experience, have occurred 292 00:18:31,440 --> 00:18:34,320 Speaker 1: in bathtubs where people have been particularly children, where they're 293 00:18:34,359 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 1: held held beneath the surface and they're drowned. But those 294 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:41,480 Speaker 1: are most of the time, those are one off events. 295 00:18:41,800 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: It's not like you you have these events that are 296 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: occurring where you know, you've got some guy twirling his 297 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: mustache over in the counter, over in the you know, 298 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,240 Speaker 1: all dressed in black, saying I'm going to use water 299 00:18:54,440 --> 00:18:56,920 Speaker 1: to kill people with, and you know, you start talking 300 00:18:56,920 --> 00:18:59,959 Speaker 1: about accidental drownings and things like that. You know, you 301 00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,119 Speaker 1: you got to look at the toxicology and as you 302 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,280 Speaker 1: pointed out in this particular case, guy's got alcohol on board. 303 00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:08,679 Speaker 1: So how do you balance that out? And my question 304 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:13,639 Speaker 1: is to you, is that we're looking for patterns here right, Yes, Well, 305 00:19:13,960 --> 00:19:16,280 Speaker 1: you know how many of these cases have been ruled 306 00:19:16,359 --> 00:19:23,480 Speaker 1: actually an accident versus a natural or versus undetermined or hey, look, 307 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: give it to me. If you've got a homicide rite, 308 00:19:25,600 --> 00:19:27,239 Speaker 1: let me know about it. Well, I'd like to know. 309 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:31,160 Speaker 2: Here's the situation, Joe in Austin, Texas, where Ladybird Lake 310 00:19:31,440 --> 00:19:35,680 Speaker 2: is and where Rainy Street is. Oftentimes because of the 311 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,680 Speaker 2: number of bodies pulled out of the water, they refer 312 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:40,359 Speaker 2: to it. Those who want to act like they have 313 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:43,960 Speaker 2: a serial killer, say Rainy Street killer. There might be 314 00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 2: I'm not saying there isn't, just saying that there are 315 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 2: a lot of people following crime now it's a very 316 00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,880 Speaker 2: hot topic. There are a lot of podcasts, a lot 317 00:19:53,880 --> 00:19:58,199 Speaker 2: of social media covering crime, and there are a lot 318 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 2: of people who are web slutes that really you realize 319 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:04,360 Speaker 2: we're not all the same mentally, and some people bring 320 00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:06,800 Speaker 2: a lot of weird baggage to how they look at 321 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:11,600 Speaker 2: a story. And so trusting somebody online that created a 322 00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:15,520 Speaker 2: podcast or a show about crime doesn't give them any 323 00:20:15,560 --> 00:20:18,479 Speaker 2: insight into what they're talking about unless they were a 324 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:22,760 Speaker 2: former investigator or a former forensic, you know, something along 325 00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,800 Speaker 2: those lines. Other than that, you've got armchair quarterbacks determining 326 00:20:26,680 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 2: what actually happened and what we have here. Or we 327 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:33,480 Speaker 2: have some similar deaths. They seem to be alcohol related, 328 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:35,760 Speaker 2: they seem to have happened in the late night, early 329 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,880 Speaker 2: morning hours after somebody had been on Rainy Street. And 330 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 2: the question is somebody targeting men of a specific age 331 00:20:45,720 --> 00:20:48,520 Speaker 2: or a specific look, that is targeting them in the 332 00:20:48,560 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 2: bars of Rainy Street and basically dumping their bodies in 333 00:20:55,840 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 2: the lake? Is that what this is a dumping ground? 334 00:20:59,080 --> 00:21:01,359 Speaker 2: And so when we look at some of these we 335 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:03,919 Speaker 2: had Jason john as I mentioned this guy's puking on 336 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 2: the side of the lake and falls in Yeah, no 337 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 2: illegal drugs found in his system, No traumatic injuries, just alcohol. 338 00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:13,439 Speaker 2: Could something have been put in a drink that he 339 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 2: had that made him uncontrollable? I don't know. Forty year 340 00:21:17,880 --> 00:21:22,320 Speaker 2: old Cliff Axtell. This guy works as a landscape specialist. 341 00:21:22,359 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 2: He works at Veritas Commercial Properties. He's known for his 342 00:21:25,520 --> 00:21:28,760 Speaker 2: innovative strategies in real estate. Guy's very well thought of, 343 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:33,280 Speaker 2: married to kids, excelling in his senior year at Harvard 344 00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 2: Extension School, making the deans list each semester. This guy 345 00:21:37,040 --> 00:21:39,080 Speaker 2: is a good guy, and he's working his full time 346 00:21:39,200 --> 00:21:42,400 Speaker 2: job and leading worship at his church. But Cliff Axtell 347 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 2: is seen at Stubb's Barbecue in downtown Austin on March fifth, 348 00:21:47,000 --> 00:21:49,960 Speaker 2: never makes it back home. His body is recovered in 349 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 2: Lady Bird Lake. Stubbs Barbecue is near Rainy Street. Yeah, 350 00:21:56,080 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 2: and police said the death is not being investigated as suspicious. 351 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:06,200 Speaker 2: It's his death is listed as undetermined based on this scenario. 352 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,200 Speaker 2: I just laid out for you who he is, what 353 00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:11,280 Speaker 2: he is, what he does. How does this? I mean, 354 00:22:11,280 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 2: it is certainly suspicious, but how do you not consider it? 355 00:22:15,119 --> 00:22:18,240 Speaker 2: Did he just fall in the lake and die? I 356 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 2: don't understand that Joe. 357 00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 1: Right, and so depend upon the condition of a body 358 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:27,239 Speaker 1: when it's pulled from a body of water. You know, 359 00:22:27,280 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: that's one of the things that you're going to look for. 360 00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:33,040 Speaker 1: And if you're trying to look for patterns, which you 361 00:22:33,119 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 1: do in cereal crimes, you have to find patterns relative 362 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:42,400 Speaker 1: to the physical remains. Because, as we know, it's well stated, 363 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: it's out there floating about. Serial killers very rarely deviate 364 00:22:47,840 --> 00:22:50,400 Speaker 1: from methodologies. They get very comfortable with it. 365 00:22:51,119 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 2: And when you say that, when you say de methodologies, 366 00:22:53,960 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 2: what are you actually saying? 367 00:22:55,400 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: Well, okay, I'll give you an example. I worked a 368 00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:03,000 Speaker 1: series of deaths of prostitutes many years ago in New Orleans, 369 00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 1: and they were actually all up and down the Iten corridor. 370 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 1: It wasn't just simply in Louisiana. That's what I'll say 371 00:23:09,480 --> 00:23:14,000 Speaker 1: about it. But in all of these cases, the individuals used, 372 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,200 Speaker 1: in every one of these cases a ligature to kill 373 00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: these these women. I had another case involving a series 374 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:28,439 Speaker 1: of serial killings, again prostitutes, and the individual was using 375 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: a wire, not just a ligature, but a piece of 376 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:36,680 Speaker 1: wire to choke these women out with. I've had another 377 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:43,320 Speaker 1: series where elderly women were being choked bare handed by 378 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,439 Speaker 1: an individual. And the reason I'm pointing this out is 379 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 1: that it's Wow. I don't want to sound cruel or crass, 380 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:56,679 Speaker 1: but it's it's almost like, this is the vocation. This 381 00:23:56,760 --> 00:24:00,679 Speaker 1: is not an avocation. This is everything else. Zerial killers 382 00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 1: world is all about getting an opportunity to kill again. 383 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 1: They might have a job, but that job is not 384 00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:11,159 Speaker 1: the primary interest in their life. Their vocation is actually killing. 385 00:24:11,680 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: So if you take that and you look at say 386 00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:16,919 Speaker 1: a craftsman who hate to use that, but if you 387 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,159 Speaker 1: where they have a certain particular set of tools that 388 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 1: they that they use, they're not going to deviate from 389 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,359 Speaker 1: that pattern. So here's what I would say to people 390 00:24:27,440 --> 00:24:33,840 Speaker 1: that may be thinking that the so called Lady Bird 391 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 1: Lake killer or the Rainy Straight Street killer is a 392 00:24:39,040 --> 00:24:44,600 Speaker 1: serial perpetrator. Give me the evidence that these individuals have 393 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,200 Speaker 1: been held underwater, because that's what would have to do. 394 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 1: And granted, hey, look I'm there with you. I mean, 395 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:57,640 Speaker 1: you're saying that that perhaps they are inebriated or impaired 396 00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,800 Speaker 1: by drugs, and you're only target get in one group. 397 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:03,200 Speaker 1: You're going to take them down to the water's edge 398 00:25:03,560 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: and it's going to be like some kind of weird 399 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 1: baptism where the individual is not going to be brought 400 00:25:10,240 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 1: up into new life, but will essentially pass on to eternity. 401 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: The one thing that I do know about water is that, 402 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,879 Speaker 1: particularly in large bodies, you might not see it on 403 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:49,280 Speaker 1: the surface, but water does flow. It might appear on 404 00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:57,120 Speaker 1: the top that it's tranquil and very peaceful, but beneath 405 00:25:57,160 --> 00:26:00,679 Speaker 1: the surface there is always some kind of current running 406 00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:07,360 Speaker 1: through it. Much like serialized homicide, there is always something 407 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:12,440 Speaker 1: that gives you an idea of a flow. And I 408 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:18,359 Speaker 1: think that's very important, uh, to identify here, not not 409 00:26:18,359 --> 00:26:21,359 Speaker 1: not just the flow of a so called serial killer 410 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:26,680 Speaker 1: that's at work, but also the flow of the water 411 00:26:26,920 --> 00:26:28,920 Speaker 1: in general, because that's going to give us an indication 412 00:26:29,160 --> 00:26:34,520 Speaker 1: about about bodies and where they wound up. Because a 413 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: water environment is not a static environment. It's always changing. Heck, 414 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:44,000 Speaker 1: even the even the shoreline changes, uh, And so it's 415 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: a it's a dynamic environment. It's not like an open 416 00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,119 Speaker 1: field where you find a body that's like lying there, 417 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 1: you know, and they have a what's referred to as 418 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:56,600 Speaker 1: a dumping ground. We hear that term a lot, and 419 00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:58,679 Speaker 1: I actually said it a little while ago. I know 420 00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,320 Speaker 1: you did, and I wanted to point out dumping grounds. 421 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:09,400 Speaker 1: You know, again, just like methodologies for killing locations where 422 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: they leave bodies right, it's very significant and you've got 423 00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,120 Speaker 1: to have access, you got to have cover many times 424 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:17,560 Speaker 1: to do this. And I don't know if we're there, Dave, 425 00:27:17,840 --> 00:27:18,560 Speaker 1: I really don't. 426 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,440 Speaker 2: I want to go back to something you were talking 427 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 2: about with the guy you witnessed with your own two eyes, 428 00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:29,679 Speaker 2: drunkenly falling into the water and getting back out and 429 00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:35,440 Speaker 2: getting into his boat, but eventually he did die. When 430 00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:41,119 Speaker 2: in the case of Jason John where he has described 431 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 2: drunk throwing up on the shoreline of Lady Bird Lake 432 00:27:47,000 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 2: in Austin and he falls into the water and this 433 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,800 Speaker 2: transient who is watching all of this can't get him 434 00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:01,160 Speaker 2: out of the water. I'm I'm a little fuddled by that, Joe. 435 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 2: Wouldn't the water, regardless of your intoxication level, wouldn't it 436 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:09,719 Speaker 2: be enough to if you fall in, to wake you 437 00:28:09,880 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 2: up enough that you could get yourself out. I mean, 438 00:28:13,840 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 2: apparently I'm wrong. I'm not going to say that. 439 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:17,920 Speaker 1: Odd. 440 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,920 Speaker 2: You're dealing with February here, the first week of February. 441 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:22,560 Speaker 2: It's not going to be warm. 442 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:24,960 Speaker 1: Water yeah, even in Austin. You know, I think everybody 443 00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:30,440 Speaker 1: associates wrongly that Texas is a very warm place all 444 00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:33,440 Speaker 1: year long. It ain't, no matter of texts. A matter 445 00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: of fact, some of the coldest times in my life 446 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:42,760 Speaker 1: have been in Texas. It gets very it gets very 447 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,600 Speaker 1: very chilly there. So, yeah, that that can certainly have 448 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:47,080 Speaker 1: an effect that time of year. 449 00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:50,520 Speaker 2: But if it's a man made lake, could it have 450 00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:53,120 Speaker 2: like a almost like a bowl effect where the shoreline 451 00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,720 Speaker 2: doesn't slowly come up, it just goes straight in? 452 00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:59,800 Speaker 1: Like yeah, bad, it could eventually, And yeah, when you're 453 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,440 Speaker 1: thinking about a bulkhead where you know, for folks that 454 00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:05,040 Speaker 1: don't understand that it's almost like a sea wall that's 455 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,200 Speaker 1: built in. Do you actually have a gradual shore where 456 00:29:08,240 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: you kind of and there are places along the lake 457 00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: where you can kind of walk in gradually, But are 458 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: there places where you could fall over? And if you're 459 00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,480 Speaker 1: impaired in some way, are you going to be able 460 00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 1: to swim back up to the top and grab the 461 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: edge and that sort of thing and pull yourself out. Well, 462 00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 1: the let's face it, the drunk or you are, the 463 00:29:29,840 --> 00:29:33,280 Speaker 1: less control you have over your motor skills and and 464 00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: so with all of these cases that you know that 465 00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: that we're thinking about here, you have to take that 466 00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:43,480 Speaker 1: into consideration. That's one of the reasons in these cases 467 00:29:43,480 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: in particular, the toxicology is going to play such such 468 00:29:48,600 --> 00:29:51,800 Speaker 1: such an incredible role because you get an idea as 469 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: to perhaps what their state of mind was. And it's 470 00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:59,080 Speaker 1: not it's not just alcohol, obviously, you're you're talking about 471 00:29:59,120 --> 00:30:02,560 Speaker 1: any kind of substance that they have on board at 472 00:30:02,560 --> 00:30:04,239 Speaker 1: the time of their death. The trick is can you 473 00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:08,200 Speaker 1: get to the body soon enough in order to draw 474 00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:10,600 Speaker 1: the samples that you would need in order to assess 475 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:16,280 Speaker 1: that if the body is so degraded, perhaps that might 476 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,640 Speaker 1: be bespoiled. And there's a few of these cases that 477 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: have been left undetermined. My thought is is that maybe 478 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,120 Speaker 1: the bodies were degraded or decomposed to a certain point 479 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:31,320 Speaker 1: where they couldn't make that assessment, you know, with a 480 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:34,280 Speaker 1: lot of concrete evidence. 481 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 2: Scientific evidence is a body like if it's left on 482 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:39,920 Speaker 2: the shoreline or in just in the grass, it would 483 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 2: decompose a certain way based on temperature and things like 484 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 2: that and animals, But in water would the body, I know, 485 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 2: it would decompose differently. It would be the difference. 486 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Actually, here here's kind of a little factoid 487 00:30:55,600 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: for people. If you have a you've heard the term 488 00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 1: ada posts, ada post, you have it, okay, So the 489 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: term adapos refers to fat, okay. And one of the 490 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:13,760 Speaker 1: things that you see manifested on bodies that have been 491 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,920 Speaker 1: submerged in water many times is called adapaceere and at 492 00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:24,120 Speaker 1: apare is Oldzheimer's used to refer to it as death wax, 493 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:30,239 Speaker 1: and literally it's the fatty tissue beneath the skin. And 494 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:35,640 Speaker 1: this happens in aquatic environments where it almost blossoms out. 495 00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,520 Speaker 1: And the only thing I can really tell people what 496 00:31:38,560 --> 00:31:44,640 Speaker 1: it looks like is hardened cottage cheese, only slightly yellow. 497 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,000 Speaker 1: Some people will refer to it as having a cauliflower 498 00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,600 Speaker 1: like appearance to it. And what's really weird. The rest 499 00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,479 Speaker 1: of the body might be kind of softened up, but 500 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,840 Speaker 1: when you tap the surface of the adepare it many 501 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:02,840 Speaker 1: times it'll have the ferment of an overinflated basketball. It's 502 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:05,640 Speaker 1: a really weird thing. So and that's you know, like, 503 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,040 Speaker 1: for instance, if we have a body that is found 504 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,920 Speaker 1: up in a wooded area and it has at a pacre, 505 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: we're going to know that maybe somebody pulled the body 506 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,600 Speaker 1: out of the water after a protracted period of time, 507 00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:19,440 Speaker 1: planted the body there, left the body there after it's 508 00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: been in a water borne environment. So it's it's one 509 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: of those weird little things you get. The distribution of 510 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:29,959 Speaker 1: like post warmal avidity, the settling of blood, it's going 511 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: to be all over the place. It's it's almost like 512 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,880 Speaker 1: the body is in a zero gravity environment, so it's 513 00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: affecting the the settling of blood many times. So those 514 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: are just a couple of little things that we look for. Yeah, 515 00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:46,920 Speaker 1: it's it's it's bizarre not to mention aquatic life. And 516 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:52,239 Speaker 1: of course it's going to vary from from well, you know, 517 00:32:52,600 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: from saltwater or brackish water to fresh water. Fresh water 518 00:32:57,560 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 1: one of the things you're going to be looking for 519 00:32:59,240 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 1: with marine life. Life in particular in my experience, at 520 00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:11,040 Speaker 1: least or crawfish. Some folks say crayfish, I say crawfish. 521 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 1: You know that will feast on the body. You'll see 522 00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:20,880 Speaker 1: that many times. And also the topography of the water itself, 523 00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: what lies beneath, because a lot of these lakes you 524 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:27,840 Speaker 1: don't see it. If you could drain the lake and 525 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: look at it. You'll see all kinds of debris down there. 526 00:33:30,440 --> 00:33:34,080 Speaker 1: I mean all manner of things, particularly like trees. And 527 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:38,200 Speaker 1: that brings me to trees and brush. That brings me 528 00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 1: to this idea that you've got this Ladybird lake that 529 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,400 Speaker 1: is dammed on both ends. Well, guess what happens with 530 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: a dam. They have to do a dam or lease 531 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:53,280 Speaker 1: periodically because upstream and downstream. I think this is correct. 532 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: This body of water, the Colorado River place a big 533 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,600 Speaker 1: in agriculture, and so they have to use this for 534 00:34:04,760 --> 00:34:07,760 Speaker 1: water sources for agriculture, they have to use it to 535 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:12,839 Speaker 1: provide drinking water in some circumstances. And not to mention 536 00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: the rex stuff, which is kind of an aside, But 537 00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:18,120 Speaker 1: when you do a dam release, Dave, I don't know 538 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: if you've ever been around a dam when it releases. 539 00:34:21,440 --> 00:34:23,160 Speaker 2: First time I saw it, I was scared to death. 540 00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:27,040 Speaker 1: Oh it's terrifying. I mean, it will make mighty men tremble, 541 00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 1: and you don't want to be near it. I've worked 542 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,320 Speaker 1: a couple of cases in Atlanta that involve dam releases, 543 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,640 Speaker 1: and when they blow that horn, buddy, you better be scrambling. 544 00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:41,799 Speaker 1: It's terrifying. And so when that wall of water pushes out. 545 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:46,200 Speaker 1: It's the dynamics of that are going to affect the 546 00:34:46,280 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: distribution of bodies that are in there. So let's just 547 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:52,280 Speaker 1: say that a body went in. I don't know, let's 548 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: just use Rainy Street because they seem to be really 549 00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: hot on this topic, the Rainy Street Killer. Isn't it 550 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,520 Speaker 1: amazing how they always apply a term to cereal what 551 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,080 Speaker 1: they perceive as serial events. They've got to hang a 552 00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 1: they've got to hang some kind of moniker on it. 553 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 1: But anyway, when that dam release happens, you you see 554 00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,080 Speaker 1: this push of water. If it's if the body or 555 00:35:16,080 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: a person goes in adjacent to Rainy Street, that can 556 00:35:20,320 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: push the body in any number of ways, because it's 557 00:35:23,280 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 1: again going back to this idea of being on dry land. 558 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,200 Speaker 1: The body is not set in that one position. And 559 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:35,000 Speaker 1: you have to think also about the distribution of all 560 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:36,719 Speaker 1: of these bodies. So if we took this, if we 561 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:43,960 Speaker 1: took a big map and put it up and pinpointed 562 00:35:44,000 --> 00:35:47,200 Speaker 1: where the bodies were located, you would have to think, Okay, 563 00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:52,439 Speaker 1: where could this person have gone in and wound up in? Well, 564 00:35:52,520 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 1: unless the body is hung up and brush adjacent to 565 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:59,280 Speaker 1: the shore, it's a crapshoot. You have no idea because 566 00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:03,719 Speaker 1: where you find the bodies is not necessarily where they 567 00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:07,440 Speaker 1: went in. And you know, one of the you know, 568 00:36:07,520 --> 00:36:10,880 Speaker 1: one of the big things that I'm thinking about is 569 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: this double murder that happened on Lake a Coney in 570 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: Georgia a few years ago. I think it's the it's 571 00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 1: the Dermans. I don't know if you remember this case 572 00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:28,040 Speaker 1: with the two elderly people. The husband was found decapitated 573 00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:33,040 Speaker 1: and the wife was found weighted down in a cove 574 00:36:33,280 --> 00:36:37,400 Speaker 1: that was almost three miles away from her home that 575 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,360 Speaker 1: sat on Lake a Coney and I might have the mileotron, 576 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,080 Speaker 1: but it was a distance away. Well, she was weighted down, 577 00:36:43,280 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 1: was she You have to ask the question, and again 578 00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:49,880 Speaker 1: that's a dam release lake. And so was her body 579 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: pushed to that location or did somebody go in a 580 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 1: boat and drop her there? Could she have Could her 581 00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 1: body have floated that far with a weight on it? 582 00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 1: I don't know, but you have evidence of this. And 583 00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:04,840 Speaker 1: that's why these cases are so very difficult to work 584 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,720 Speaker 1: from a profiling standpoint. When you begin to think about 585 00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:12,120 Speaker 1: the distribution of them, where's the individual going to have 586 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,799 Speaker 1: opportunity and access and the means in order to get 587 00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 1: a body out into the water. How far away are 588 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,000 Speaker 1: they from shore, what depth are they at? So you've 589 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 1: got all these considerations, Dave to think about. 590 00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 2: And we're actually, as I mentioned, you know, we talking 591 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,440 Speaker 2: about twenty bodies, and boy, that is so dismissive, and 592 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,680 Speaker 2: I apologize. There are twenty people, give or take that 593 00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 2: have been pulled from the lake in a period of 594 00:37:38,040 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 2: time that you can deal with. Okay, say two or 595 00:37:41,160 --> 00:37:43,759 Speaker 2: three years, four years, you can go back further than that. 596 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:46,200 Speaker 2: But if you just the people who want to make 597 00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:50,319 Speaker 2: this into a serial killer event will pick out an 598 00:37:50,400 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 2: area of two or three years and say, we've pulled 599 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,040 Speaker 2: X number of bodies out of Lake Lady Bird Lake 600 00:37:56,239 --> 00:37:59,880 Speaker 2: since then. And the one idea was pull these four 601 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:03,560 Speaker 2: that are similar and in each one of these as 602 00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:08,759 Speaker 2: we've already covered with Jason John Okay seen throwing up 603 00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,879 Speaker 2: on the side of the lake, falls in. A guy 604 00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,239 Speaker 2: sees this all happen, calls nine to one. One can't 605 00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,440 Speaker 2: get him out. So when they do get to him, 606 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,920 Speaker 2: he's dead. You've got Cliff Axtell he was drinking. Oh no, 607 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:25,319 Speaker 2: I take that back. Cliff Axtell was at Stubbs Barbecue, which, 608 00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 2: by the way, it's in downtown Austin. It's right near 609 00:38:27,760 --> 00:38:30,880 Speaker 2: Rainy Street and they have a very vivid night life, 610 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:35,319 Speaker 2: a lot of adult beverages being served. His body was 611 00:38:35,360 --> 00:38:39,680 Speaker 2: recovered in Ladybird Lake and police gave that an undetermined 612 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:42,040 Speaker 2: They don't know what happened, is how he died or 613 00:38:42,040 --> 00:38:46,160 Speaker 2: anything else. Jonathan Honey, He's from Washington, d C. That 614 00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:49,600 Speaker 2: was visiting Austin for a bachelor trip. He was drinking 615 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,440 Speaker 2: with friends that bars along Rainy Street. He leaves to 616 00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:54,839 Speaker 2: find some food. I'm hungry guys and grabbing a by dat. 617 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:56,759 Speaker 2: He gets something to eat at a food truck on 618 00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:02,400 Speaker 2: Rainy Street and then vanishes. His friends are missing. His 619 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:05,720 Speaker 2: body has recovered the next day and Ladybird Lake alcohol 620 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 2: is found in his system, along with a couple of 621 00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,319 Speaker 2: over the counter prescribe medications. Medical examiner rules Honey's death 622 00:39:13,360 --> 00:39:17,000 Speaker 2: as an accidental drowning. Again, we're back to the same thing. 623 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:20,040 Speaker 2: We got three guys you ever take the same age 624 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 2: and all end up dying in and and around Ladybird Lake. 625 00:39:27,560 --> 00:39:31,000 Speaker 2: So that's when you get down to all of the others. 626 00:39:31,640 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 2: They don't fit. None of them fit a profile these four, 627 00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:39,279 Speaker 2: and there's another one that I think is Nimoga to 628 00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,480 Speaker 2: Gael I think is his name, and they kind of 629 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:46,919 Speaker 2: fit that same pattern of drinking with friends late at night, 630 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 2: end up in Ladybird Lake drowned. But all the others 631 00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,640 Speaker 2: kind of explainable. Is something other than that, But these 632 00:39:54,680 --> 00:39:57,600 Speaker 2: four you can't really explain. How did four people end 633 00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:03,640 Speaker 2: up drown Well, yeah, and I think that by themselves 634 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 2: that night, right, And so when you think about there's 635 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,120 Speaker 2: a thirty year old by the name of Christopher Hayes Clark, 636 00:40:12,920 --> 00:40:17,680 Speaker 2: Jonathan Honey thirty three, Cliff exl that you had mentioned, 637 00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:23,040 Speaker 2: and then Jason John and I guess they're similar in 638 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 2: the sense that they happened happened in approximating one another 639 00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,560 Speaker 2: time wise. But is that the work? Is that truly 640 00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:38,320 Speaker 2: the work? Let's just be very open. Is that truly 641 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:42,480 Speaker 2: the work of some sinister master criminal out there? Or 642 00:40:42,600 --> 00:40:46,319 Speaker 2: is this just dumb, dumb fate here if you will. 643 00:40:46,400 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 2: Where these individuals are inebriated or compromised in some other 644 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 2: way physically, where they fall in maybe they're disoriented, I 645 00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,640 Speaker 2: have no idea, and they get turned around and they 646 00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:01,640 Speaker 2: happen to go into the water. It's I don't know, 647 00:41:02,080 --> 00:41:06,839 Speaker 2: to me, one of the dangers here. I think there's 648 00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:11,760 Speaker 2: actually a couple of them. First off, when you start 649 00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:14,800 Speaker 2: throwing around the term and I say you, I don't 650 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:18,640 Speaker 2: mean you, I mean the media. Let that sink in 651 00:41:18,680 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 2: for a minute. When the media. 652 00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,960 Speaker 1: Starts throwing around the term serial killer and they have 653 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,480 Speaker 1: other people that are feeding into this. It's one thing 654 00:41:27,520 --> 00:41:31,239 Speaker 1: to speculate on a case, but now you become a 655 00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,799 Speaker 1: driver of fear in a particular location. You know, do 656 00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:40,080 Speaker 1: I want to take my kids down there? And then 657 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:44,480 Speaker 1: that from the general public goes up to the people 658 00:41:44,480 --> 00:41:47,319 Speaker 1: in charge and they say, why aren't you doing anything else? 659 00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:50,200 Speaker 1: Why aren't you doing anything about the serial killer? Well, 660 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:54,840 Speaker 1: first off, we don't have a serial killer. And the 661 00:41:54,960 --> 00:41:58,960 Speaker 1: chief I think it was the chief of police. Let 662 00:41:58,960 --> 00:42:04,080 Speaker 1: me see what was that name? Yeah, Chief Greenwald. He 663 00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 1: had stated in April of twenty twenty three that he's 664 00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,879 Speaker 1: dealing with rumors. Can you imagine every time he goes 665 00:42:10,920 --> 00:42:14,279 Speaker 1: out in public. And I know he gets paid to 666 00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:17,480 Speaker 1: do a job, but every time he gets goes out 667 00:42:17,480 --> 00:42:20,640 Speaker 1: in public, he has to address this issue. And trust me, 668 00:42:20,840 --> 00:42:23,080 Speaker 1: Austin's got a lot of other issues that have to 669 00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:26,200 Speaker 1: be dealt with. They're asking He's being asked, well, well, 670 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:28,960 Speaker 1: where's the you know, why don't you guys doing anything 671 00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 1: about serial killer? It's like, what serial killer are you 672 00:42:31,719 --> 00:42:36,080 Speaker 1: referring to? What proof? What proof do you have that 673 00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:40,000 Speaker 1: there is actually a serial killer at work here in Austin? 674 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,480 Speaker 1: Please explain that to me. Give me the details. Do 675 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,799 Speaker 1: you know something that I don't know or my investigators 676 00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:47,520 Speaker 1: don't know, or that the medical examiner doesn't know. If 677 00:42:47,520 --> 00:42:50,320 Speaker 1: you have information, please tell us and lay it out, 678 00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,719 Speaker 1: I mean in detail, so that we understand exactly what 679 00:42:54,760 --> 00:42:56,719 Speaker 1: you're talking about, because lord knows, if we have a 680 00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,560 Speaker 1: serial killer, we want to interdict the situation and put 681 00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:02,400 Speaker 1: it to rect. I mean, the Chief's not sitting around thinking, 682 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:05,879 Speaker 1: oh my gosh, serial killer. Wow, this will really get 683 00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 1: us on the map. We're just going to allow this 684 00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:10,120 Speaker 1: to go on and on forever. They're going to throw 685 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,920 Speaker 1: the full weight and force. I've been on serial killer 686 00:43:14,000 --> 00:43:16,640 Speaker 1: task Force. I have seen what kind of force is 687 00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:19,959 Speaker 1: brought to bear on these things. And you can read 688 00:43:20,000 --> 00:43:23,360 Speaker 1: the room real easy relative to this by virtue of 689 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:27,400 Speaker 1: who's involved in the overall investigation. Because when a serial 690 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:33,719 Speaker 1: killer is actually identified in a location. Those elected officials, 691 00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:37,040 Speaker 1: and you can kind of they're the barometer for this. 692 00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:42,000 Speaker 1: The last thing they want is to have open cases 693 00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:44,879 Speaker 1: related to a serial killer. And the last thing they 694 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:52,080 Speaker 1: also want is to not be demonstrating positive action going 695 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:55,760 Speaker 1: forward to resolve this issue. There is nothing that will, 696 00:43:56,040 --> 00:44:00,840 Speaker 1: you know, get somebody you know out of office or 697 00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,319 Speaker 1: have fingers pointed at them quicker than something like this, 698 00:44:04,400 --> 00:44:08,560 Speaker 1: because it literally terrifies the public. It's like I said, 699 00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:15,080 Speaker 1: you know earlier about the analogy with Jaws. You say Barracuda, 700 00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:23,279 Speaker 1: people say what you say, shark games on him. I'm 701 00:44:23,360 --> 00:44:27,040 Speaker 1: Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is bodybags.