WEBVTT - Ep. 899: Jim Heffelfinger, The Deer Preacher 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:13.640 This is the me Eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.800 --> 0:00:18.919 bug bitten, and in my case, underwear listening, you can't 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:24.800 predict anything presented by First Light, creating proven versatile hunting 0:00:24.840 --> 0:00:29.200 apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear. For every hunt, 0:00:29.560 --> 0:00:41.960 First Light Go farther, stay longer. This is gonna embarrass you, Jim, 0:00:41.960 --> 0:00:44.440 But you know how I'm gonna introduce him. Can a 0:00:44.479 --> 0:00:47.800 man I'm gonna say, Joined today by the smartest man 0:00:48.000 --> 0:00:50.760 in the woods, by the smartest man in the woods, 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:55.000 Jim Hefflefinger. You're lying right off the bat, You're like, Okay, 0:00:55.040 --> 0:00:57.880 how about this, Joined today by the most well informed 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:01.400 man in the woods. Okay, Jim heffle Finger, thank you 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:05.480 for coming in. It's great to be here. Yeah. If 0:01:05.560 --> 0:01:08.720 listeners of the show know that rarely does an episode 0:01:08.760 --> 0:01:12.160 go by when someone doesn't say Hefflefinger was telling me, 0:01:12.560 --> 0:01:15.800 or Hefflefinger wrote in to explain, or Hefflefinger is mad 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:19.440 about blank because he, like I said, he's the he's 0:01:19.480 --> 0:01:21.720 the smartest, most well informed man in the woods. And 0:01:21.720 --> 0:01:23.560 when we're talking about stuff, he likes to tell us 0:01:23.560 --> 0:01:26.400 where we where we hit and where we miss and 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:28.680 Jim comes on. You've been on I don't know how 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:32.800 many times, this maybe your third fourth time podcast, yea. 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:34.720 And what we do is we work up a bunch 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:36.640 of things that we're gonna talk about, and we agree 0:01:36.680 --> 0:01:38.280 that and we agree on what we're gonna cover, and 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:40.520 we're gonna cover a bunch of those today. We're gonna 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:46.160 talk about We're gonna talk about Jim's thoughts and current 0:01:46.200 --> 0:01:48.320 research on a thing that we've brought up in the 0:01:48.320 --> 0:01:51.880 past is like, if you eat wild gamey, is the 0:01:52.000 --> 0:01:55.640 lead gonna get you? Is the lead gonna kill you? 0:01:56.360 --> 0:01:58.920 We're gonna talk about this thing that pops up now 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:08.919 and then if that the argument that by having more 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:11.920 predators on the landscape we would see a decline in 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:14.799 chronic wasting disease, We're gonna talk about that. We're gonna 0:02:14.800 --> 0:02:16.600 talk about a thing you might see pop up in 0:02:16.639 --> 0:02:19.920 the news now and then trophic cascades, particularly in the 0:02:19.960 --> 0:02:23.840 context of when wolves came back to Yellowstone National Park. 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:28.600 People came up with all these sort of fantastical ideas 0:02:28.600 --> 0:02:31.640 about the trophic cascades that occurred in the park thanks 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:35.480 to wolves. We're gonna talk about have Aleena getting their due. 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:39.240 We're gonna talk about some ungulate stuff, but the first 0:02:39.240 --> 0:02:44.440 thing we're going to talk about is the Rompola buck. Now, 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:47.720 first I want to clarify a thing I and I 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:51.400 grew up near where I grew up, south of mitch 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:55.000 But but my father had my father had met him, 0:02:55.040 --> 0:02:56.840 had known him, had handled some of the deer he 0:02:56.880 --> 0:02:59.160 had killed in the past. He used to measure bucks 0:02:59.200 --> 0:03:02.000 for like commemoraive bucks to Michigan. And somehow I had 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:06.680 in my head I for years have said Rampaula. But 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:11.840 that's a that's a lure rapella. Yeah, it's cast and 0:03:12.520 --> 0:03:20.760 cast Paula's Rompola. We're working on a project. Jordan Sillers, 0:03:21.080 --> 0:03:23.040 who you might know from Blood Trails, is working on 0:03:23.120 --> 0:03:28.280 a podcast about We're doing a series along along Away, 0:03:28.400 --> 0:03:30.320 this series that I've been talking about for a million 0:03:30.440 --> 0:03:34.240 years on the Rompola buck. And for those of you 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:36.240 that just tune in for the first time, I'll try 0:03:36.240 --> 0:03:42.400 to keep it brief. But officially, officially, the biggest buck 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:46.520 ever killed by the hands of man was killed by 0:03:46.640 --> 0:03:50.360 in Canada by a guy named Milo Hansson. But shortly 0:03:50.440 --> 0:03:54.520 after that buck was killed a buck that would have 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:59.680 beat Milo Hansson's buck to become the all time world 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:04.200 reck typical whitetail was air road by a guy named 0:04:04.240 --> 0:04:10.640 Mitch Rompola and then withdrawn from consideration. So we're doing 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:16.280 a mystery series on is the buck real or not? 0:04:17.360 --> 0:04:21.280 Which side are you on? Right? And so I've been 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:25.720 we've been wanting to interview We've been wanting to interview 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:29.039 half a finger about this buck because you have you 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:32.120 spent a lot of time on antlers and antler growth 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:35.520 and deer and everything. And one of the questions I 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:40.080 want to ask you about, and this will be included 0:04:40.120 --> 0:04:42.359 in the series, but just to kick it around is 0:04:42.400 --> 0:04:45.560 one of the things that people point out is that 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:51.040 where this buck got killed in northern Lower Peninsula, Michigan 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:57.279 is a place that does not make big bucks. They 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:01.400 don't have they don't make Boone and crocodile like God 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:05.200 does not make Boone and Crockett bucks in the Grand 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:09.839 Traverse Bay area of Michigan. What do you make of 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:10.520 something like that? 0:05:10.800 --> 0:05:13.279 I've heard that, and I'm not an expert on the 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:16.200 whole Mitch from Paula Buck, I remember when it came 0:05:16.240 --> 0:05:18.640 out around the Midwest. I grew up in Wisconsin, so 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:22.120 right next door, and and remember all the chatter about that, 0:05:22.120 --> 0:05:24.680 and never paid much attention to it. Came back to 0:05:24.720 --> 0:05:28.000 it more recently and helped Jordan out with the with 0:05:28.120 --> 0:05:33.080 that series. And just from a basic standpoint of can 0:05:33.160 --> 0:05:36.240 a monster buck like that come out of nowhere? And 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:38.839 and I I think it can. You know, it's a 0:05:38.880 --> 0:05:42.400 matter of it's a matter of likelihood always when you're 0:05:42.440 --> 0:05:44.560 when you're thinking about that sort of thing. But I've 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:48.719 seen cases in Sonora in the desert southwest where you 0:05:48.760 --> 0:05:51.000 get you get a drop condition where all of the 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:54.920 antlers are a little stunted that year from nutritional restrictions, 0:05:55.320 --> 0:05:57.560 and then out of nowhere there's this giant desert mule 0:05:57.600 --> 0:05:59.640 here and you just wonder, how did he do that. 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:03.960 Antlers are secondary sex characteristics. They only get the extra 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:06.600 nutrition after the body gets what it needs, and then 0:06:06.640 --> 0:06:09.360 it can throw off some extra nutrition to antler growth, 0:06:09.520 --> 0:06:12.760 and so when they're nutritionally stressed, they don't throw that out. 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:15.720 And sometimes you'll get a buck that who knows why, 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:18.479 I found some good nutrition or has some kind of 0:06:18.480 --> 0:06:21.800 genetics that is able to better deal with kind of 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:24.279 the environment, and you can get a monster out of 0:06:24.279 --> 0:06:27.880 nowhere that that's not a reason to discount it when 0:06:27.880 --> 0:06:28.919 you're talking about this case. 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:32.279 Another thing we're looking into in this series, and it's 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:40.400 an observation that another whitetail freak had made. And I 0:06:40.400 --> 0:06:47.880 can't remember the number, but this whitetail enthusiast was saying 0:06:47.960 --> 0:06:51.719 that one problem with the round pole of buck, it's 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:55.680 too perfect. And I can't remember the number, but let's 0:06:55.680 --> 0:06:57.800 just say I don't remember. Let's just say at one 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:00.440 hundred and ninety inches, I say one hundred ninety inch tail. 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:04.400 He's like, once a deer gets that big, go find 0:07:04.440 --> 0:07:07.840 me an example of a perfectly symmetrical buck that's that 0:07:07.920 --> 0:07:09.440 big that doesn't have kickers. 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:13.320 They're there, I mean, examples are there. I looked at 0:07:13.360 --> 0:07:15.680 the because it was Michigan. I looked at the Michigan 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:19.040 state records, and the number two and the number seven 0:07:19.120 --> 0:07:22.840 buck in the Michigan state records is actually this was 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:25.120 not Michigan state records. It was a Bunoncracker records, but 0:07:25.160 --> 0:07:29.000 only from Michigan. Boonecracker records from Michigan. Number two in Michigan, 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:31.440 number seven in Michigan are in the one eighty one 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:35.160 ninety Boone Crockett range, and one has one inch and 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:37.800 five ace deductions and the other one has two inch 0:07:38.120 --> 0:07:40.800 and change deductions. So you can get these bucks in 0:07:40.840 --> 0:07:46.120 that range that are almost perfectly symmetrical. So again it's 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:50.280 not a reason to discount the buck just because it'symmetrical. Yeah, 0:07:50.360 --> 0:07:53.680 So what's your gut on the whole thing? I for 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:57.360 a while thought he probably just wants his privacy. He doesn't, 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:01.320 he doesn't, sure, he doesn't want the fame, but having 0:08:01.480 --> 0:08:07.320 the world record shot with an arrow, that's a tough 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:10.960 thing to overcome. That He would tell everybody about it, 0:08:11.160 --> 0:08:13.400 show people in the back of his truck, talk to 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:15.880 some media, and then within a day or two shut 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:19.480 up for three decades. There's something something strange. And one 0:08:19.520 --> 0:08:23.400 thing I don't know if you want any spoiler alerts, 0:08:23.440 --> 0:08:26.200 but one thing I talked to Jordan about was the 0:08:26.240 --> 0:08:30.320 way the bases the pedicles. They come out an unusually 0:08:30.440 --> 0:08:33.439 wide angle. Sure, so you can have wide bucks where 0:08:33.440 --> 0:08:35.280 the antlers come straight out, you see them in South 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:38.480 Texas all the time, but those pedicles really seem to 0:08:38.520 --> 0:08:40.080 come out like on the side of the head. 0:08:40.160 --> 0:08:41.400 Kind of odd to me. 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:44.760 And one of them actually in the photo, and there's 0:08:44.760 --> 0:08:47.199 not many photos. One of them actually looks a little 0:08:47.520 --> 0:08:49.360 like a little different orientation than the other one. And 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:55.360 I wondered aloud to Jordan whether in past years something 0:08:55.360 --> 0:08:58.040 could have happened to that skull and cracked it a 0:08:58.040 --> 0:09:01.640 little and healed it and made those pedicles orient a 0:09:01.640 --> 0:09:04.800 little more. Now, if he had done something with the 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:07.600 skull and cracked it, those antler times wouldn't be straight up. 0:09:07.640 --> 0:09:10.040 They would be out because he bent it out. 0:09:10.320 --> 0:09:10.760 But they're not. 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:13.839 They're straight up in that buck. But if that something 0:09:13.880 --> 0:09:16.439 happened to that skull in the past that widened those 0:09:16.440 --> 0:09:19.520 pedicles out, cracked it and rehealed, which there's cases of that, 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:22.760 and then subsequent antlers, the times would grow straight up 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:24.000 no matter what the orientation. 0:09:25.120 --> 0:09:27.520 Repull up and put on his screen up here shot 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:28.400 of the round polar buck. 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:32.520 So I've just wondered, And this is all speculation because 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:36.000 we don't know. There isn't any evidence that it's a 0:09:36.080 --> 0:09:39.360 legitimate buck, and there's no evidence that it's not a 0:09:39.440 --> 0:09:40.080 legitimate book. 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:42.240 So we're all speculating. It's just all speculation. 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:45.760 So as long as we're speculating, those pedacles, if that 0:09:46.200 --> 0:09:49.160 skull was damaged somehow and the pedicles were wider, and 0:09:49.200 --> 0:09:53.200 then subsequent antler development made those times go straight up. 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:55.360 It would account for that. I mean, it's a theory, 0:09:55.400 --> 0:09:58.320 but it would account for kind of the unusually wide 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:01.000 pedicles coming out of the skull. And I find it 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:03.480 strange that he talked to the media for a day. 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:06.280 He showed people the buck. It was apparently solid antlers. 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:07.839 Other people saw it in the battle. 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:12.480 There's guys, there's yeah, there's a lot. There's there's a 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:15.040 lot to the solidness of the end. Are you able 0:10:15.080 --> 0:10:16.560 to do that or no? Go on? 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:19.800 So so then I wonder why was he talking to 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:22.880 the media and talking to everyone and then got home 0:10:22.880 --> 0:10:23.880 and skinned the buck. 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:25.560 And shut up for three days. It is. 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:30.440 Now when I look at that the deer's left pedicle, 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:33.080 uh right, when you're looking at it, but the deer's 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:36.400 left side, it looks like that that base is coming 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:39.800 out a little lower to me. It could be the 0:10:39.800 --> 0:10:42.520 angle of the camera, could be anything, but it comes 0:10:42.559 --> 0:10:44.480 out kind of in the back of the eye, like 0:10:44.520 --> 0:10:46.600 the eyes lined up with it, where on the other 0:10:46.640 --> 0:10:48.040 side the eyes below the pedacle. 0:10:48.640 --> 0:10:50.199 I was looking at that that. 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:54.520 Asymmetry in that and wondering if something didn't happen to 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:56.199 the skull. There's even kind of a divot in the 0:10:56.240 --> 0:10:59.280 middle of that skull. Wonder if something didn't happen and 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:02.200 then it regrew normal antlers, but would account for that 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:04.960 wide with It's funny that he showed everybody, he talked 0:11:04.960 --> 0:11:07.760 to the local media and then got home and skinned 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:09.400 it and shut up for three decades. 0:11:10.040 --> 0:11:12.760 Why was that? And then when they went back to 0:11:12.800 --> 0:11:19.160 the I mean you're familiar with all the like wild theories, yep. Yeah, 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:22.520 one of the wild theories being and I've sat on 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:24.840 both sides of this thing, and I and I don't 0:11:24.840 --> 0:11:29.640 want to do too much like we're we're really we're 0:11:29.640 --> 0:11:32.840 doing a lot on this, okay. But one of the 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:37.000 wild theories is people have looked at the ears, the 0:11:37.520 --> 0:11:41.040 difference between the way the ears lay, the difference between 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:43.320 the positioning of the eyes. You can see it all here. 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:47.840 We got it pulled up coloration issues, right, And a theory, 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:54.880 a theory is that he skinned that head back and 0:11:54.920 --> 0:11:56.960 put that rack on. He had made that rack and 0:11:57.000 --> 0:11:59.680 he installed that rack on that buck. Yeah. 0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:02.679 I don't well, I don't think he could have fabricated 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:05.040 he didn't. There's no evidence he has any experience in 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:07.760 doing any that sort of thing, and he's shot a 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:09.880 lot of big bucks. It wasn't unusual that he would 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:13.440 shoot a big buck. So I'm leaning more towards that 0:12:13.720 --> 0:12:17.679 it possibly being a legal harvest, but maybe not eligible, 0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:20.440 and he knew that, and so he would rather just 0:12:20.640 --> 0:12:24.040 be quiet and have it be a missisis now eligible 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:27.520 because the skullplate was cracked, Possibly that's the theory. But 0:12:27.800 --> 0:12:30.200 he came home and then you know, he was somewhat 0:12:30.200 --> 0:12:32.720 of a taxidermist, and when they came to measure the buck, 0:12:32.760 --> 0:12:34.920 he had it almost fully mounted on a shoulder mount, 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:37.520 he had the cape on it, he had the if 0:12:37.600 --> 0:12:39.640 you look at the pictures of them actually measuring it 0:12:39.720 --> 0:12:43.000 that day, the skull plates covered by fur, and he 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:45.400 left Apparently he left the back open. There's no photo 0:12:45.400 --> 0:12:47.400 of the back that I've seen. He left the back 0:12:47.480 --> 0:12:50.200 open so that they could inspect the skull plate. But 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:52.720 from the photo that I look at, the whole skullplates covered, 0:12:52.760 --> 0:12:55.280 they could only I would guess, see the back of 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:57.280 the skull plate. So how would they be able to 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:01.679 evaluate if something was funny with that middle suture where 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:02.600 the bones come together. 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:05.880 That would be covered. From what I see in the photos, 0:13:05.880 --> 0:13:12.040 it would be covered. Yeah, well, stay tuned, folks, this 0:13:12.240 --> 0:13:15.520 it's gonna be good. Man. I'm excited about it. Theories 0:13:15.600 --> 0:13:18.200 is all I'm doing. No, that's great, it's great. Keep 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:21.360 keep coming. And then again, we've done, We've done people 0:13:21.520 --> 0:13:24.719 like we've called out looking for people that have any 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:27.600 kind of information, and of course that that offer always stands. 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:29.439 Let's jump to the next thing. No, man, is that 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:33.280 our hunter's all going to die from lead poisoning. I don't. 0:13:33.320 --> 0:13:35.400 I don't think they have been lead poisoning. I mean, 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:38.079 you don't ever hear in the medical profession about one 0:13:38.080 --> 0:13:40.600 of the dangers of lead exposure is eating game meat 0:13:40.640 --> 0:13:44.880 shot with lead ammunition. The medical profession doesn't seem to 0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:47.800 know about this, apparently because all of the bird, all 0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:52.760 of the bird enthusiasts, are all concerned about hunter's health 0:13:52.800 --> 0:13:55.640 and what they're feeding their children. Yeah, let me let 0:13:55.640 --> 0:14:00.520 me set this up a little bit. You probably remember 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:01.960 when this has happened. It was some years ago. 0:14:03.320 --> 0:14:06.400 Scattered around on the internet, all these photos where they 0:14:06.400 --> 0:14:10.480 were doing like X rays of deer carcasses that have 0:14:10.600 --> 0:14:15.560 been shot by rifles. Okay, and you look at these 0:14:15.600 --> 0:14:18.280 carcasses and you see that that that those bullet fragments 0:14:18.360 --> 0:14:21.440 really scatter and travel around. They do, and so you'd see, 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:23.800 you know, let's say it's an X ray of a 0:14:23.840 --> 0:14:28.040 deer's rib cage scapula, and you can see the area 0:14:28.520 --> 0:14:30.840 where the bullet hit. But then you see all these 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:34.800 little bright spots and they're metallic fragments that were I 0:14:34.800 --> 0:14:36.680 guess they could get in the vascular system and move 0:14:36.680 --> 0:14:38.600 a little bit. They kind of explode outward and move 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:42.080 a little bit. And it and and that, among other things, 0:14:42.120 --> 0:14:47.520 really got people talking about the impacts of lead consumption because, 0:14:48.040 --> 0:14:50.840 as you know, there's all this stuff about child development 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:53.800 and like you hear about like whatever, kids eating lead paint, 0:14:55.240 --> 0:15:01.280 lead pipes, leeching water into lead, and is very staunch 0:15:01.360 --> 0:15:03.600 position on you know, all the lead warnings. You can't 0:15:03.600 --> 0:15:06.560 buy anything that doesn't come with some lead warning. For California, 0:15:06.920 --> 0:15:08.680 you buy a lead headed jig, and it's got a 0:15:08.720 --> 0:15:10.680 warning about how the lead headed jig is gonna kill you. 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:14.120 So there's definitely like an alarm, a sense of alarm 0:15:14.160 --> 0:15:18.320 about consumption of lead. But it carried over into this 0:15:18.440 --> 0:15:21.920 idea that that there's all this lead contamination out there 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:24.680 and gamey and you even now will see instances where 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:28.600 a state might say we're no longer accepting venison donations 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:33.400 because of the risk of lead. It's well documented that, well, 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:38.200 maybe you'll counter this, but it's well documented that raptors, 0:15:40.200 --> 0:15:44.200 the most commonly excited example being California condors can get 0:15:44.280 --> 0:15:48.120 lead poisoning from eating game meat killed by lead bullets. 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:51.920 That seems to be scientifically accepted. Yep, And so it 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:57.120 jumped to, well, it must be bad for us too, right, yeah, yeah. 0:15:57.240 --> 0:15:58.760 Let let's let me let me ask you like a 0:15:58.800 --> 0:16:05.600 series of questions. Okay, what's your take on your personal 0:16:05.640 --> 0:16:11.880 take the scientific understanding of like raptors? Okay, do raptors? 0:16:12.280 --> 0:16:15.160 Is it accepted in your mind? Is it accepted that 0:16:15.320 --> 0:16:20.440 raptors die from lead exposure from eating hunter killed deer carcasses. Yep? 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:25.200 At the individual level, lead can be really, really toxic 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:27.800 to raptors. They have a different and birds in general, 0:16:27.800 --> 0:16:31.080 they have a different digestive system, and so raptors are 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:33.760 very susceptible. They can get even a small fragment of 0:16:33.880 --> 0:16:36.720 lead when they're feeding on an animal that was a 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:39.400 carcass left in the field, or an animal that was wounded, 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:42.160 a coil that was hit with a lead shot and 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:44.960 then it wasn't retrieved. If they get a little bit 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:48.000 of lead in them, it can make them sick and 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:50.840 it certainly can kill them. So at an individual level, 0:16:50.840 --> 0:16:53.920 it's very dangerous. The problem is when you scale this 0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:56.720 up and say, is this really a conservation issue that 0:16:56.760 --> 0:17:00.000 should force hunters to switch to a non lead ammunition, 0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:03.440 And you look at the data that we have available, 0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:07.720 there is a population level effect of accidental secondary lead 0:17:07.840 --> 0:17:14.160 ingestion by raptors from ammunition. But what I encourage people 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:16.560 to look at is not just the fact that there's 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:20.159 a population level effect, but what is the magnitude of 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:22.920 that effect? Is it a serious issue from the population level? 0:17:23.160 --> 0:17:24.879 And when you look at research that's been done, there 0:17:24.920 --> 0:17:28.199 were seven Northeastern states, they looked at eagles ingestion, They 0:17:28.200 --> 0:17:32.320 did some modeling, and they determined that the having using 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:37.000 lead ammunition on the landscape dampened the bald egal population 0:17:37.119 --> 0:17:39.919 growth rate by four to six percent. So bald eagles 0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:42.360 all over the country are just rocketing up. They're doing 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:47.240 really well. Record numbers, trajectories going up their models showed 0:17:47.240 --> 0:17:50.400 that that trajectory upward would be dampened four to six 0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:54.560 percent if we use lead ammunition in those seven Northeastern states. 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:57.679 So I encourage people to think, is that a serious 0:17:57.920 --> 0:18:01.800 conservation concern that everybody in those Northeastern states should switch 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:04.720 the kind of ammo they use so that ball eagles 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:07.960 can increase four to six percent faster than they already are. 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:11.160 Golden eagles, it was less than one percent. In fact, 0:18:11.200 --> 0:18:15.040 another research in another completely different project in the West 0:18:15.160 --> 0:18:19.040 looked and found that golden eagle population growth rate was 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:21.640 dampened by zero point eight percent, so less than one 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:25.679 percent effect on golden egle population growth rate. And so 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:28.280 when you look in Europe, they did studies on twenty 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:31.399 two different raptor species. If you average the effect on 0:18:31.480 --> 0:18:34.720 twenty two different raptor species in Europe, which had just 0:18:34.760 --> 0:18:38.639 announced a ban in Europe on lead ammunition, was right. 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:41.360 Just yesterday I saw that home like an EU ban. 0:18:41.960 --> 0:18:44.120 I don't think it's I don't know, that's what I asked. 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:46.359 I actually asked, is this EU or what? And I 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:48.800 don't know. I didn't get the answer. But in twenty 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:52.320 two different raptor species in Europe, the average effect on 0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:56.240 the population was that it increased using lead ammunition on 0:18:56.280 --> 0:19:00.520 the landscape for big game hunting, increased mortality rates by 0:19:00.520 --> 0:19:04.639 a half a percent using lead. So if you banned 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:07.600 all lead in Europe, the mortality rates would be a 0:19:07.640 --> 0:19:10.479 half a percent lower for twenty two raptor species. So 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:16.280 to me, I'm wondering, where is this giant conservation concern 0:19:16.560 --> 0:19:19.320 that everybody would need to change ammo. So it's a 0:19:19.359 --> 0:19:22.000 long answer to the individual question, but I think it's important. 0:19:22.880 --> 0:19:26.600 It is lethal to individuals. It's the number one thing 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:30.840 that's inhibiting condor recovery condor and endangered species, so every 0:19:30.880 --> 0:19:34.479 mortality counts, and they're very susceptual lead poisoning, so it's 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:39.480 a serious issue within condor range. Arizona has a voluntary 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:42.840 program where hunters can voluntarily switch to non lead ammunition 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:45.719 or take their gut piles out of the field completely 0:19:45.800 --> 0:19:48.800 so they're not leaving anything for the condors, and that 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:51.560 has been adopted by eighty eight to ninety one percent 0:19:51.600 --> 0:19:54.240 of the hunters in Arizona, so it's very successful voluntary 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:57.159 program compared to other states like California that just have 0:19:57.480 --> 0:19:59.520 a top down Dracconian ban on. 0:20:00.359 --> 0:20:05.320 Yeah, so but I hear that. Is that explain to 0:20:05.320 --> 0:20:10.679 me the idea that like lead going through a condor's 0:20:10.760 --> 0:20:13.240 digestive tract is different than lead going through a human 0:20:13.280 --> 0:20:14.800 beings digestive tract? Yes? 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:17.360 Is it something to do with the pH they it's 0:20:17.560 --> 0:20:21.320 it's pH with the acidic digestive tract. And it's also 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:24.240 the they don't have just a stomach like like we do. 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:27.919 They have other organs that the lead pellets and the 0:20:27.960 --> 0:20:30.280 meat that they eat sit in there a long time 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:33.439 to dissolve in that that acidic environment, and it's the 0:20:33.560 --> 0:20:37.200 length of time that that metallic lead sits in there. 0:20:37.400 --> 0:20:38.960 So I hope we talk about different kinds of lead. 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:39.840 That's an important part. 0:20:40.000 --> 0:20:44.359 Okay, So what is are you aware of cases? And 0:20:44.400 --> 0:20:45.840 I feel like I've read these, but I can't remember 0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:48.680 what happened. Where they'd go in and look at people 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:52.600 that have been consuming game meet their whole life, and 0:20:52.680 --> 0:20:55.119 then go try to see like, well how much this person, 0:20:55.400 --> 0:20:57.119 how much lead is in this person's system. 0:20:57.320 --> 0:20:59.840 Yes, there's been several studies like that, and it started 0:20:59.840 --> 0:21:04.520 in North Dakota in two thousand and seven. A dermatologist 0:21:04.720 --> 0:21:06.359 who happened to be on the board of directors of 0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:11.120 a major, major raptor organization. He went into a food 0:21:11.160 --> 0:21:14.080 bank in North Dakota, grabbed ninety three packages x ray 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:17.000 them and about half of those had lead fragments in there. 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:20.000 So he sounded the alarm. And people have questioned the 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:23.679 motives being on the board of directors for a raptor organization, 0:21:24.320 --> 0:21:26.840 but he sounded the alarm. And so the Department of 0:21:26.840 --> 0:21:29.240 Health in North Dakota tested blood samples for North Dakota 0:21:29.600 --> 0:21:32.000 people all over the state. Had seven hundred and thirty 0:21:32.000 --> 0:21:34.679 six samples, I think, and they found that those that 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:38.280 said they hunted had twice the lead level as those 0:21:38.320 --> 0:21:42.000 that didn't, and that spread like wildfire. Everybody picked that 0:21:42.119 --> 0:21:44.359 up and that hunters are poisoning themselves. They have twice 0:21:44.400 --> 0:21:48.040 the lead level. What wasn't reported was that level of 0:21:48.119 --> 0:21:51.480 hunters twice the lead level was about the national average 0:21:51.520 --> 0:21:53.560 of lead for everybody at that time. It was one 0:21:53.560 --> 0:21:56.720 point twenty seven micrograms were DESCO leader and the national 0:21:56.720 --> 0:21:59.560 average was one point twenty five at the time, and 0:21:59.600 --> 0:22:01.919 so it was twice a level of non hunters, but 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:04.959 it was still below any level that any medical science 0:22:04.960 --> 0:22:08.840 has shown lead problems in humans, and in fact, the 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:11.960 reality was that those that didn't hunt, because it's probably 0:22:12.000 --> 0:22:15.160 sparsely populated North Dakota, the ones that didn't hunt had 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:18.680 below average lead levels because the hunters had about the 0:22:18.760 --> 0:22:20.439 national average lead levels. 0:22:20.720 --> 0:22:21.760 There's been that study. 0:22:21.920 --> 0:22:24.040 I think one of the most important studies on human 0:22:24.080 --> 0:22:28.000 effects of eating game meat with lead comes from a 0:22:28.080 --> 0:22:31.000 First Nations up in Ontario where they looked at people 0:22:31.040 --> 0:22:34.520