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Speaker 1: Hey, or have you seen a new TV show about

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Speaker 1: the multiverse?

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Speaker 2: Oh?

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Speaker 3: Which one? I feel like there are multiple ones out there.

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Speaker 1: I know there are so many. Makes me wonder if

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Speaker 1: there are multiverse aliens out there, would they want to

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Speaker 1: watch shows about like a single universe a monoverse what?

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Speaker 3: Wait? So if there is a multiverse and aliens, what

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Speaker 3: you're wondering about is whether they watch a show, a

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Speaker 3: particular show. Yeah, that's the first question you would ask them.

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Speaker 1: I don't know if it's the first question, but it's

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Speaker 1: on the list.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, what's on? But that's an interesting concept,

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Speaker 3: like to them, a show about a single universe would

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Speaker 3: be weird and strange to them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And you know the stories that people tell,

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Speaker 1: the stories people are interesting. That tells you a lot

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Speaker 1: about how their mind works. So I think that would

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Speaker 1: be super fun.

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Speaker 3: I am Jorge mcgartoonez and the author of Oliver's Great

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Speaker 3: Big Universe.

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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Daniel. I'm a particle physicist and a professor

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Speaker 1: at UC Irvine, and I'll watch almost any science fiction

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Speaker 1: show that's out there, honestly.

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Speaker 3: Oh, would you like it and not like it at

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Speaker 3: the same time? Or do you like them all or

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Speaker 3: do you you just want to see them all?

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Speaker 1: I watch almost all of them. I don't like all

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Speaker 1: of them. I usually finish them anyway, even if I

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Speaker 1: sort of hate watch them at the end. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I can't do that. If I don't like something,

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Speaker 3: forget it. I drop it, books, TV shows, movies, So

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Speaker 3: I'll stop watching a movie in the middle.

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Speaker 1: I always just have this hope that they're going to

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Speaker 1: pull it off, you know that somehow, even though it

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Speaker 1: seems like nonsense, there's an explanation waiting at the end.

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Speaker 1: I'm almost always disappointed, but I still have that hope,

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Speaker 1: you know.

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Speaker 3: I think that's why they invented Wikipedia. Daniel.

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Speaker 1: Are you saying you stop watching something and just read

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Speaker 1: the plot summary on Wikipedia?

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Speaker 4: No?

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Speaker 3: I do, know, I do. It's such a time saver,

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Speaker 3: trust me, and then if what happens sounds interesting, then

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Speaker 3: I'll go see how they did it.

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Speaker 1: Wow, amazing. Maybe instead of living your life, you should

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Speaker 1: just read about yourself on Wikipedia. I mean it saves time.

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Speaker 3: Right, Well, who do you think is writing my Wikipedia?

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Speaker 1: Is that? You? Wi?

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Speaker 3: I mean, what better source about my life than me?

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Speaker 4: Yeah?

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Speaker 1: Actually, I think there probably are better sources. People tend

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Speaker 1: to not be unbiased recounters of their own life story.

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Speaker 3: But anyways, welcome to our podcast, Daniel and Jorge Explain

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Speaker 3: the Universe, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: A show in which we explain how the universe works

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Speaker 1: to you. We want to answer your questions and really

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Speaker 1: unwind the explanations so that they click in your mind

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Speaker 1: even better than if you just read the article on Wikipedia.

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Speaker 1: We do the Wikipedia for for you. So many people

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Speaker 1: write to me and say, hey, I write about this

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Speaker 1: on Wikipedia and it still doesn't make sense. Can you

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Speaker 1: explain that to me? That's what this show is about,

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Speaker 1: explaining everything that's out there in the universe in a

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Speaker 1: way that actually makes sense to you.

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Speaker 3: That's right, because it is a pretty interesting universe, full

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Speaker 3: of cliffhangers, interesting plot twists, and amazing characters out there.

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Speaker 3: Hopefully without a series finale yet.

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Speaker 1: I think it's going to end in a cliffhanger. What

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Speaker 1: do you think?

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Speaker 3: But what's on the other side of the cliff? Daniel?

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Speaker 1: I just hope we get another season, that's all, you know.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, how do you know we're not in the

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Speaker 3: second season?

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Speaker 1: We could be in like season infinity, right If it's

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Speaker 1: just a series of bangs, and everyone is a new season.

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Speaker 3: We could be like the soap opera of the meta metaverse,

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Speaker 3: meta meta universe. You know, it just goes on forever. Yeah, exactly,

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Speaker 3: that's the universe turns.

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Speaker 1: And we'd like exploring the physics of the real universe,

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Speaker 1: but we also like thinking about other hypothetical, even fictional units,

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Speaker 1: because this is a great way to stretch our brains

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Speaker 1: to imagine the way that our universe might be. There's

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Speaker 1: a great history of science fiction authors being super creative

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Speaker 1: about the way physics might work in some universe in

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Speaker 1: their mind, and sometimes even inspiring real physics in new directions.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Because also, isn't it sort of the job of

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Speaker 3: physicists to think about possible futures or possible ways in

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Speaker 3: which the universe might work, and then go out there

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Speaker 3: and test them.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, that is the job of theoretical physics, not

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Speaker 1: just describe what we've seen in the universe, but think

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Speaker 1: about what else might be out there, come up with

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Speaker 1: new experiments we could do to discover the way the

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Speaker 1: universe is. And in order to do that, you have

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Speaker 1: to be creative. You have to say, maybe the universe

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Speaker 1: works this way, maybe it works that way, how would

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Speaker 1: we know? What would it mean? You know, all the

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Speaker 1: big discoveries in the history of physics, Einstein's revolution with

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Speaker 1: relativity comes from thinking about the way the universe might work,

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Speaker 1: and science fiction authors do the same thing in another direction.

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Speaker 1: They maybe even take it further.

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Speaker 3: Now does that mean that a physicist can just lay

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Speaker 3: back and read what science fiction author is?

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Speaker 1: Right, dude, you figured out our secret. That's embarrassing.

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Speaker 3: I know.

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Speaker 1: That's why I watch so much science fiction. I'm like,

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Speaker 1: I need a new idea for research. Let's turn on

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Speaker 1: the TV.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right. Do you ever like reference that in

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Speaker 3: your scientific papers? You should.

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Speaker 1: Hasn't actually happened yet, but you know, I'm waiting for

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Speaker 1: the day. I'm keep investing.

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Speaker 3: Oh, I see, you're waiting for the day for someone

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Speaker 3: to make a TV show about a gripping drama that

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Speaker 3: takes place at the Large Hadron Collider, about a particle

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Speaker 3: physicist who has a podcast and then turns out to

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Speaker 3: be an international spot.

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Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, exactly. You know the show we're talking

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Speaker 1: about today actually is about a physicist who turns out

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Speaker 1: to discover something exciting about the universe. Hmmm.

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Speaker 3: Interesting, Well, let's dig into that because to me, on

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Speaker 3: the program, we'll be tackling the sci fi universe of

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Speaker 3: dark matter. Now wait, Daniel, I thought we were talking

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Speaker 3: about the multiverse, not dark matter.

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Speaker 4: I know.

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Speaker 1: Yes, the title of this show is maybe a touch

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Speaker 1: bit misleading.

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Speaker 3: I agree, Yeah, misleading or inaccrid or maybe in season

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Speaker 3: Infinity will turn out that dark matter is what power

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Speaker 3: is the multiverse.

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Speaker 1: Well, I don't want to give away any spoilers, So

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Speaker 1: people got to read the book or check out the

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Speaker 1: TV show. This TV show is inspired by a book

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Speaker 1: of the same name by Blake Crouch. It was that

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Speaker 1: book that actually kicked off our whole series of science

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Speaker 1: fiction episodes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Remember we recorded an episode where we talked about

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Speaker 3: the book. This was a long time ago, right, five

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Speaker 3: years ago? Four years ago.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we actually chatted with Blake about a different book

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Speaker 1: of his Recursion about time travel. But reading that book

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Speaker 1: and thinking about the physics and wondering how authors used

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Speaker 1: physics as they developed their shows and how they developed

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Speaker 1: the science fiction universe is what inspired our whole series

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Speaker 1: of episodes of interviews with authors, which has been super fun.

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Speaker 1: So thanks Blake for writing that book.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you. Blake, and so he wrote the book

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Speaker 3: Dark Matter, on which the TV show is based on,

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Speaker 3: which you can see right now in Apple TV.

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Speaker 1: That's right, by the time this episode airs, the finale

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Speaker 1: will have been out already, and so it's a fun

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Speaker 1: science fiction show on Apple TV.

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Speaker 3: Oh, does that mean we're going to do spoilers or

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Speaker 3: not spoilers.

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Speaker 1: We are not going to do spoilers because I want

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Speaker 1: people to hear this episode and then watch the show.

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Speaker 3: And or read the Wikipedia page.

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Speaker 1: No, do not do that.

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Speaker 3: It might see afy time. I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Let's see, Yeah, let's see.

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Speaker 3: But anyway, it's a show out there right now, and

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Speaker 3: it's a limited series, right how many episodes will there be?

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Speaker 1: There's nine episodes in the first series and there hasn't

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Speaker 1: yet been news about whether they'll extended for a second series.

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Speaker 1: The story in the first series basically captures what happens

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Speaker 1: in the book.

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Speaker 3: Okay, does it vary from the book or did they

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Speaker 3: change anything or leave it as this?

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Speaker 1: There's a few subtle modifications, but basically it follows the

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Speaker 1: story as laid out in the book.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, mmm, okay, what's the general story of the book

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Speaker 3: or movie?

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Speaker 1: For booth? So it's a multiverse inspired story, and it's

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Speaker 1: a story about a physicist and in one of the universes,

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Speaker 1: he invents a box that connects the multiverses. So it's

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Speaker 1: essentially about being able to travel from one universe to

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Speaker 1: another universe to imagine like alternative lives you might have lived,

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Speaker 1: or to maybe even change the universe you live in

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Speaker 1: because you regret some of your choices.

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Speaker 3: WHOA wait, wait, wait, So first of all, it's a box.

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Speaker 3: Mm hmmm, not a douhiki or a machine. It's a box.

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Speaker 3: How big is this box? Like phone booth size box

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Speaker 3: or briefcase size box.

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Speaker 1: No, it's big enough for a few people to stand in.

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Speaker 1: It's sort of like the size of a small garage.

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Speaker 1: I guess, looks like it's don't know, three meters across

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Speaker 1: or something. But it's a box because it's inspired by

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Speaker 1: Schrodinger's cat you know, the idea of putting a cat

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Speaker 1: in a box and then not knowing whether it's live

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Speaker 1: or dead because there's a quantum trigger poison in there

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Speaker 1: with a cat. So I think they used a box

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Speaker 1: because it's evoked by Schrodinger's cat experiment.

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Speaker 3: I see, So does that mean that the multiverse in

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Speaker 3: the show is the quantum multiverse version, because I know

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Speaker 3: we've talked about there being multiple versions of multiverses.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. This is the quantum multiverse. The idea that

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Speaker 1: if there are random things happening in the universe, like

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Speaker 1: an electron could go left or could go right, and

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Speaker 1: quantum mechanics tells us that there's just a random probability

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Speaker 1: for either one, then you might ask how does the

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Speaker 1: universe choose? And in the Copenhagen interpretation, the universe just

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Speaker 1: picks one somehow, you know, rolls a die somewhere behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes, and an electron goes left or goes right.

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Speaker 1: That's the wave function collapse. But there's another version of

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Speaker 1: quantum mechanics, the many world's theory or Everrettian, that says

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Speaker 1: it doesn't collapse. It does both. The universe splits into two.

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Speaker 1: So the electron goes left in one universe and right

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Speaker 1: in another universe, and so those are two elements of

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Speaker 1: the multiverse.

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Speaker 3: So now after the elect on splits, there are two

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Speaker 3: universes that exist, one in which the electron win left,

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Speaker 3: one in which the electrone went right. Whereas before there

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Speaker 3: was only one universe.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and you have to be careful what you mean

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Speaker 1: by universe here. We use the word universe here to

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Speaker 1: evoke the universe that we experience, you know, our stars

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Speaker 1: and galaxies and our space and our bodies and all

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Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, and then we imagine many of

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Speaker 1: those we put those together into a multiverse. Some people

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Speaker 1: who support this theory of quantum mechanics think that that's

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Speaker 1: a little bit misleading. You're not really creating new universes.

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Speaker 1: You just have one big universe that's now split into

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Speaker 1: independent branches that can no longer talk to each other.

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Speaker 1: So it's a bit of a quibble about the naming.

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Speaker 1: But I think that leads people to imagine that like

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Speaker 1: all this new stars are being made somehow, all this

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Speaker 1: mass is being created, when it's really more like it's

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Speaker 1: splitting into both possibilities.

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Speaker 3: Now, in the show, the scientists physicists, I imagine built

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Speaker 3: a box and then what happens to the box If

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Speaker 3: you get in it, you can go to another multiverse,

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Speaker 3: or you can experience it, or what what is it

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Speaker 3: that it connects the multiverses?

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Speaker 1: Yes, the idea is that inside the box, the universe

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Speaker 1: has not made a choice about what's happening. There's nobody

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Speaker 1: observing it, there's nobody looking at it. So it's still

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Speaker 1: in this sort of quantum superposition where it can have

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Speaker 1: both possibilities. And so in that sense, it's like there

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Speaker 1: are multiple possibilities within the box, the same way that

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Speaker 1: when you put a cat in the box and you

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Speaker 1: don't look inside yet, the cat could still be alive

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Speaker 1: or still be dead, and quantum mechanics says, both possibilities

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Speaker 1: exist simultaneously, So now to experience both simultaneously. In the show,

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Speaker 1: they develop some sort of chemical, some sort of like

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Speaker 1: shot that you take that allows your brain to exist

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Speaker 1: in a superposition so that you can go inside the

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Speaker 1: box without collapsing the possibilities. So now you are inside

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Speaker 1: the box, and you are still in this quantum superposition,

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Speaker 1: so you're sort of like experiencing multiple universes simultaneously.

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Speaker 3: It's like you're the cat intro Dinger's cat, and then

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Speaker 3: the cat took a pill or something or some medicine.

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Speaker 3: It can now is being both dead and alive. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: I guess that that, yeah, would not be experienced anything.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And in the show they described it says,

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Speaker 1: turning off the observer effect what I described earlier. You know,

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Speaker 1: when the electron goes left or goes right, when it's

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Speaker 1: making that choice, that's what we call the observer effect.

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Speaker 1: When you ask the universe, okay, which one is it?

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Speaker 1: I want to observe the electron, And in the Copenhagen interpretation,

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Speaker 1: they say when it's observed, that's when the universe makes

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Speaker 1: a choice. And so in this story they sort of

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Speaker 1: like turn off the observer effect by taking the special

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Speaker 1: drug that allows your brain to be in a superposition,

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Speaker 1: and then you can basically choose which universe you want

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Speaker 1: to go into. You reopen the door, you walk out

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Speaker 1: in a new universe. In that universe, you made a

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Speaker 1: different choice in your earlier life, or you know, society

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Speaker 1: has gone a different way, or something is different about

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Speaker 1: the universe.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I hear that there are all kinds of drugs

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Speaker 3: that will let you experience all kinds of universes. You

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Speaker 3: don't need a box. But wait, so taking this bill

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Speaker 3: of going into the box that gives you access to

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Speaker 3: all of the multiverses ever created, or just the ones

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Speaker 3: that happen after you go into the box based on

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Speaker 3: the choices you make inside the box. You know what

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Speaker 3: I mean, Like, it would make sense if you can

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Speaker 3: access the ones that you're super proposed in, but maybe

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Speaker 3: not the ones that were created a long time ago

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Speaker 3: or will be created in the future.

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Speaker 1: No, it's a very good point, and there is a

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Speaker 1: bit of a scientific quibble there. Right, What might make

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Speaker 1: sense is you create this box. Now you haven't looked

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Speaker 1: at what's inside the box. Several things could be happening

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Speaker 1: inside the box. If you now go inside the box,

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Speaker 1: you can then choose any of those possible outcomes from

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Speaker 1: when you created the box. Right, That's not what happens

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Speaker 1: in the show. In the show, you can visit any

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Speaker 1: alternative universe in which you were born. So not like

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Speaker 1: the full breadth of all possible universes, including ones where

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Speaker 1: you never existed or the Earth never formed, just universes

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Speaker 1: in which you were born. But I agree with you

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Speaker 1: that that doesn't really make sense, because how could the

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Speaker 1: box have those universes connected to it? Right? It exists

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Speaker 1: in our universe? Yeah, yeah, okay, but that's a lot

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Speaker 1: less exciting, right If you create a box and then

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Speaker 1: you can go inside the box and then be in

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Speaker 1: any universe in which you made this box. Five minutes ago.

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Speaker 1: That doesn't really give you many new options. It doesn't

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Speaker 1: allow for exciting stories like I'm going to go inside

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Speaker 1: the box and then instead of being a physicist who

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Speaker 1: created this box, I'm going to go back and find

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Speaker 1: the woman I should have married instead of building this box.

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Speaker 3: I guess either version would be kind of interesting. Like

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Speaker 3: I could go into this box, right, I can watch

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Speaker 3: a TV show and also at the same time, I

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Speaker 3: can maybe, uh, you know, write a novel, and then

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Speaker 3: at the end I'll have done both. Is that how

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Speaker 3: it works?

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Speaker 1: Well, eventually you have to come out, right, not everybody

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Speaker 1: in the universe has taken this drug, and so then

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Speaker 1: when you come out, you're either going to be Jorge

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Speaker 1: who wrote a novel or Orge who watched a TV show.

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Speaker 3: And I can choose which one.

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Speaker 1: You can choose which one, Yes, But you can't be both.

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Speaker 1: You can't have both watched the TV show and written

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Speaker 1: a novel, which I think is what you're going for.

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Speaker 3: But if I wrote the novel, do I remember how

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Speaker 3: I written the novel or remember having watched them the

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Speaker 3: TV show?

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Speaker 2: No?

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Speaker 1: Because when you come out, then the universe collapses and

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Speaker 1: makes your choice.

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Speaker 3: Right, Okay, But I'll have known, like if I picked

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Speaker 3: a novel, then I know that the novel I wrote

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Speaker 3: is better than the TV show I watched.

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Speaker 1: When you come out, you won't You'll only have been

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Speaker 1: Horry wrote the novel, or Horaey who watched the TV show?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, or Hori We just read the Wikipedia article about

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Speaker 3: but let's go back to the show. Sorry. So then

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Speaker 3: the physicists had then the option to go anywhere at

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Speaker 3: any point in his life in which he made a

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Speaker 3: decision and go that that way or not.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.

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Speaker 3: But then if he goes the other way, then he'll

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Speaker 3: have been that person who made the other choice. Does

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Speaker 3: he stay the person he was before he went into

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Speaker 3: the box?

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Speaker 1: He stays the person he was before he went into

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Speaker 1: the box, and now he's experiencing this new universe. So

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Speaker 1: one of the main storylines in the show is that

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Speaker 1: this physicist, the one we're following, actually didn't build the box.

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Speaker 1: He decided not to go into physics and instead follow

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Speaker 1: his wife's career and become a teacher. But then another

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Speaker 1: version of him that did build the box decides, you know,

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Speaker 1: life being a physicist isn't as exciting, and I should

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Speaker 1: have chosen love and comes and kidnaps the original version

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Speaker 1: of him and takes his place.

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Speaker 3: Wait what so Wait the main protagonist is not a physicist.

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Speaker 1: He's a physicist by training, he got a PhD, etc.

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Speaker 1: But now he's teaching, he's not doing research. He decided

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Speaker 1: not to devote himself to buildings. He's not a practicing physicist.

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Speaker 1: But then the physicist version of him in the multiverse

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Speaker 1: turns out to be kind of evil. Yeah exactly. You know,

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Speaker 1: he decided following his career with maybe the wrong path,

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Speaker 1: even though it allowed him to create this box. Now

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Speaker 1: it lets him come back and live both versions, right,

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Speaker 1: he wants to be Woorge wrote the novel and watch

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Speaker 1: the TV show. He got to have a career, build

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Speaker 1: a box, and now he wants to go back and

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Speaker 1: experience love.

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Speaker 3: So basically the moral of the story is, if you

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Speaker 3: become a physicist and you become a super villain. Yeah

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Speaker 3: takeaway here.

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, Bruce Banner has seven PhDs,

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Speaker 1: so maybe the guy just needs more PhDs so it becomes,

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Speaker 1: you know, on the good side.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, but I think for Bruce Banner, he has

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Speaker 3: PhDs in non physics fields. What that balance is he.

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Speaker 1: Got seven PhDs and none of them are in physics really.

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Speaker 3: Some of them. I think most of them are not.

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Speaker 3: I don't know. I mean, looked at this transcript.

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Speaker 1: I need to check out Bruce Banner CV.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, there you go. I'm sure he posts it

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Speaker 3: on Wikipedia. Okay, So then he gets kipnayed by his

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Speaker 3: alternate version. And then what happens when you kipnapped and

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Speaker 3: then placed in the other universe and now he's trapped

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Speaker 3: or what?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, basically, and he has to figure out what happened

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Speaker 1: and try to get back to his original universe, and

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Speaker 1: then the story gets pretty wild. So it's a pretty

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Speaker 1: fun story. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Oh, do you give it a thumbs up or a

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Speaker 3: thumbs down or both thumbs up and thumbs us down.

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Speaker 1: It's definitely a lot of fun to watch. I recommend

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Speaker 1: it if you're into science fiction. I think the science

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Speaker 1: of it is pretty solid, but there are some quibbles,

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Speaker 1: but I think they're sort of necessary fudge factors to

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Speaker 1: make the story work. Otherwise it just wouldn't be possible.

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Speaker 1: But it's definitely fun to watch, and it tries really

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Speaker 1: hard to follow rules, you know, to set up a

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Speaker 1: universe and to follow the consequences of that. I think

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Speaker 1: it does a good job of imagining where the story

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Speaker 1: might go that you wouldn't expect.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I know following rules is very important to you.

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Speaker 1: Well, we think the universe follows rules, and we're trying

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Speaker 1: to figure it out, and so it's most fun to

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Speaker 1: follow rules in these stories. The science of it. I

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Speaker 1: do have a couple of quibbals. I mean, number one

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Speaker 1: is the issue you already brought up, like, if you

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Speaker 1: create this box, how is it possible that has access

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Speaker 1: to choices you made before you made the box? That

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Speaker 1: doesn't seem to work with me.

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Speaker 3: My question is how do you pick which universe you

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Speaker 3: want to go into? Like is there a computer? Or

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Speaker 3: you say I want to go to the universe in

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Speaker 3: which I didn't become a physicist.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they actually dig into that in great detail in

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Speaker 1: the show. I don't want to spoil how it works,

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Speaker 1: but they definitely grapple with that question. That's not something

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Speaker 1: they'd gloss over.

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Speaker 3: Oh interesting, like is there a user interface or do

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Speaker 3: you check out all the other universe and pick the

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Speaker 3: one you like.

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Speaker 1: You're gonna have to watch the show or read the

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Speaker 1: Wikipedia page to find out.

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Speaker 3: Really, that's a big spoiler. The user interface is a

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Speaker 3: big spoiler.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to give it away, man, I want

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Speaker 1: people to watch the show. But this does raise the question,

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Speaker 1: which is, you know, the role of the human in observing.

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Speaker 1: There's a lot of people out there who imagine the

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Speaker 1: quantum mechanics depends on like having a conscious observer. When

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Speaker 1: we talk about the observer effect, the wave function collapsing,

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Speaker 1: choosing one universe out of many, a lot of people

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Speaker 1: think that it requires a person like a conscious observer.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's just basically a misunderstanding of the

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Speaker 1: observer effect, because what quantum mechanics tells us is that

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Speaker 1: the wave function collapses anytime a quantum system interacts with

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Speaker 1: any classical object, meaning like something big, you know, like

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Speaker 1: a baseball or a screen or a detector or your eyeball.

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Speaker 1: Doesn't have to be something conscious. In this show, the

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Speaker 1: imagine that it has to be like a conscious person

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Speaker 1: to collapse the wave function, and that by taking this

436
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Speaker 1: ampul you're like removing that so it doesn't collapse. So

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Speaker 1: they're imagining that humans are special somehow in collapsing the

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Speaker 1: wave function. That's not the way it really works in

439
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Speaker 1: quantum mechanics, so they need this fudge for the show

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Speaker 1: to work. So you know, I can forgive it, but

441
00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,960
Speaker 1: I don't want people to misunderstand that quantum mechanics requires

442
00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,560
Speaker 1: a conscious human observer, right, Right.

443
00:20:07,720 --> 00:20:10,400
Speaker 3: The things collapse just when they interact with other systems, right,

444
00:20:10,640 --> 00:20:12,600
Speaker 3: and a human brain is just another system.

445
00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:14,840
Speaker 1: Just what you're saying, It depends on the system they

446
00:20:14,880 --> 00:20:17,240
Speaker 1: interact with. A quantum system will not collapse if it

447
00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:20,240
Speaker 1: interacts with another quantum system. Like two electrons can interact

448
00:20:20,280 --> 00:20:23,520
Speaker 1: and still stay in quantum superposition because they're built quantum objects.

449
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:27,080
Speaker 1: But if an electron interacts with a classical object, a screen,

450
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,879
Speaker 1: a detector, your eyeball, whatever, then it will collapse. And

451
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,040
Speaker 1: people are probably thinking, huh, what's the difference between a

452
00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,600
Speaker 1: classical and a quantum system? Where do you draw the line?

453
00:20:35,680 --> 00:20:39,240
Speaker 1: Isn't a classical system actually built out of little quantum particles? Yes?

454
00:20:39,280 --> 00:20:42,200
Speaker 1: Absolutely not a question we have an answer to. That's

455
00:20:42,240 --> 00:20:44,360
Speaker 1: the famous measurement problem in quantum mechanics.

456
00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,200
Speaker 3: As in the answer just that classical objects are quantum objects,

457
00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,280
Speaker 3: except that they're just made up of so many quantum

458
00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,080
Speaker 3: objects that it statistically kind of overwhelms the uncertainty.

459
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:57,199
Speaker 1: Well, we don't really understand how that happens, you know,

460
00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:01,520
Speaker 1: the transition between quantum and classical. If quantum objects can

461
00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:04,760
Speaker 1: interact with other quantum objects and remain in superposition, why

462
00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:07,760
Speaker 1: can a billion quantum objects not do that or a trillion.

463
00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,880
Speaker 1: That's not something we understand. According to mathematics, it should

464
00:21:10,880 --> 00:21:14,000
Speaker 1: be possible, you know, So we don't understand when something

465
00:21:14,040 --> 00:21:15,080
Speaker 1: becomes classical.

466
00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:19,680
Speaker 3: What about this idea that you can connect multiverses together.

467
00:21:20,200 --> 00:21:23,480
Speaker 3: Is that something that physicists think is impossible? Or do

468
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,800
Speaker 3: you think that it's possible to travel between multiverses.

469
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,080
Speaker 1: It's very skeptical that idea. Most of the multiverse theories

470
00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:34,080
Speaker 1: involve universes that cannot interact in any way. In the

471
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,080
Speaker 1: many worlds theory, for example, the wave function has split

472
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:39,240
Speaker 1: and there's no way for those branches of the wave

473
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,120
Speaker 1: function to interact. Just simply having a box in one

474
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,640
Speaker 1: of the universes that you haven't looked inside of doesn't

475
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:48,080
Speaker 1: connect the universes in any way. There's no way to

476
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:51,840
Speaker 1: connect to that other universe. So yeah, that I don't

477
00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,440
Speaker 1: think is actually possible. But you know, again, I'm willing

478
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,680
Speaker 1: to fudge it, although it raises the question like if

479
00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:59,320
Speaker 1: one person in one of these universes builds a box,

480
00:22:00,000 --> 00:22:01,280
Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, there's a box in

481
00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,439
Speaker 1: all those other universes that you can step out of.

482
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,400
Speaker 1: That means that in any of the universes, anybody built

483
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:08,600
Speaker 1: a box. It makes a box in the other universes.

484
00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 1: Then all the universes should be filled with an infinite

485
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:11,640
Speaker 1: number of boxes.

486
00:22:12,119 --> 00:22:15,160
Speaker 3: What wait, wait, there's only one box in the show.

487
00:22:15,720 --> 00:22:17,919
Speaker 1: No, there's an infinite number of boxes, because he builds

488
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 1: one box, and that makes the box appear in all

489
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:23,000
Speaker 1: the other branches of the universe, so he can step

490
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 1: out of the box in those universes.

491
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:28,800
Speaker 3: Wait what who built those other boxes in those other universes?

492
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, unexplained. It just sort of is created when he

493
00:22:32,600 --> 00:22:35,080
Speaker 1: builds the one and then doesn't look inside of it

494
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,480
Speaker 1: because it's now in a quantum superposition. It exists in

495
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,840
Speaker 1: all those universes. That's not really explained, And so if

496
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:45,320
Speaker 1: any other version of him also builds the box, then

497
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:47,439
Speaker 1: it should exist in our universe as well, and so

498
00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:49,920
Speaker 1: we should have an infinite number of those boxes. The

499
00:22:49,960 --> 00:22:51,680
Speaker 1: whole universe should be filled with boxes.

500
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 3: Well, isn't that a big plot hole? Like who built

501
00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 3: the boxes in the other universes?

502
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,440
Speaker 1: Yeah? Great question and a question I'm going to put

503
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,080
Speaker 1: to the writers of the show in just a minute.

504
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,240
Speaker 3: Oh well, this is pretty exciting, Daniel. You got to

505
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 3: interview two people involved in the show. One is one

506
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 3: of the screenwriters and the other one is a scientific

507
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 3: consultant for the show.

508
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 1: That's right. I talked to Jacqueline ben Zachary, one of

509
00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 1: the screenwriters for the show. She wrote a couple of

510
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 1: the last episodes. I talked to about writing for the

511
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,720
Speaker 1: show and her process and how they consider the science.

512
00:23:20,840 --> 00:23:23,680
Speaker 1: And I know they involved a physicist as a scientific

513
00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 1: consultant who happens to be a physicist that you and

514
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,280
Speaker 1: I know, and who happens to be here with me

515
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:31,040
Speaker 1: at the Aspen Center for Physics this week where I am,

516
00:23:31,480 --> 00:23:33,040
Speaker 1: and so I reached out to him and he agreed

517
00:23:33,040 --> 00:23:34,720
Speaker 1: to talk to me about what it's like to be

518
00:23:34,760 --> 00:23:36,639
Speaker 1: a science advisor on this kind of show.

519
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 3: All right, Well, we'll get to Daniel's interview with a

520
00:23:39,760 --> 00:23:43,440
Speaker 3: screenwriter and scientific consultant for the Apple TV show Dark

521
00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 3: Matter when we come back from the brick. All right,

522
00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 3: we're talking about the Apple TV show Dark Matter, which

523
00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 3: is a science fiction show about the multiverse and being

524
00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:08,919
Speaker 3: able to travel between them and being able to I guess,

525
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 3: high five and or kicknap other versions of yourself that

526
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:16,280
Speaker 3: made bad choices according to your current version. It's a

527
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:16,879
Speaker 3: little fuzzy.

528
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, that's really the theme of the show is

529
00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,440
Speaker 1: like thinking about other parts of your life and decisions

530
00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,560
Speaker 1: you made, sort of like that sliding window movie. Was

531
00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:26,680
Speaker 1: it called a sliding glass doors? What was that movie

532
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,680
Speaker 1: with Gwyneth Paltrow? You know, other choices you might have

533
00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:30,560
Speaker 1: made at least.

534
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,360
Speaker 3: Other sliding glass window. Yeah, I think that's what it's

535
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,800
Speaker 3: called the sliding rear view mirror.

536
00:24:36,880 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, there you go. That's really the theme of the show,

537
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 1: and they use the multiverse as a way to explore that.

538
00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 3: Well, you got to interview both a screenwriter and the

539
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,480
Speaker 3: scientific advisor for the show, and so here is Daniel's

540
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,600
Speaker 3: interview with screenwriter Jacqueline ben Zachrey.

541
00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,920
Speaker 1: Okay, so then it's my great pleasure to welcome to

542
00:24:56,960 --> 00:25:00,280
Speaker 1: the podcast Jacqueline ben Zachary. Jacquelin, thank you for much.

543
00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:01,160
Speaker 1: We're taking some time.

544
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:02,880
Speaker 4: To talk to us, of course, and you can call

545
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,240
Speaker 4: me JBZ. That's what most people do, so it's easier.

546
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:09,879
Speaker 1: All right, Great, So tell us a little bit about

547
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:12,560
Speaker 1: your background. How you got into science fiction writing and

548
00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:15,600
Speaker 1: working in television for people who want to have your job?

549
00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:16,719
Speaker 1: How did you get it?

550
00:25:17,080 --> 00:25:21,119
Speaker 4: Oh, very me and during and weird, it's kind of

551
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 4: how it all happened.

552
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:22,199
Speaker 5: Uh.

553
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't want to go back too far in time,

554
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:28,760
Speaker 4: but I'm dyslexic. I grew up having a really difficult time.

555
00:25:28,800 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 4: Like I didn't really know how to read until I

556
00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:34,800
Speaker 4: was sixth grade or so somewhere and there I actually

557
00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,240
Speaker 4: figured out how to not just read, but understand what

558
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,679
Speaker 4: I was reading, and it became an obsession, Like the

559
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:42,960
Speaker 4: idea of words and what they mean. I think it's

560
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 4: not that they have greater meaning to me than other people,

561
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 4: but I think that I appreciate them in a different way.

562
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 4: I see them in a different way. So always, from

563
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,120
Speaker 4: a very young age, I was obsessed with books and

564
00:25:56,480 --> 00:25:59,199
Speaker 4: with the idea of reading and like this concept that

565
00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,960
Speaker 4: it makes you if you can understand what you're reading,

566
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,600
Speaker 4: which is like so silly and simple, but you know,

567
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,159
Speaker 4: like I was a kid, and you know, once I

568
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 4: got a little bit older, I ended up working at

569
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:12,679
Speaker 4: Amazon for a while doing some you know, I was

570
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:17,960
Speaker 4: in process improvement, statistical analysis, and six Sigma. I really loved,

571
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 4: you know, Matthew Matthew Mathy all day. It was really great.

572
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,960
Speaker 4: But I was missing some of that creative energy. So

573
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 4: I ended up it was a semi being headhunted.

574
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:29,160
Speaker 6: Semi.

575
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 4: I was looking for an opportunity to be more in

576
00:26:33,000 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 4: I would say, a creative role. So I got a

577
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 4: job working in publishing Thomas Mercer, Amazon Publishing, and I

578
00:26:41,160 --> 00:26:45,119
Speaker 4: really loved that job. I really loved being around story

579
00:26:45,160 --> 00:26:48,120
Speaker 4: and writers and it just you know, life has a.

580
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 6: Way of sort of evolving over time, you know.

581
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 4: I started off in marketing and trying to understand how

582
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 4: people react to story and why they buy what they buy,

583
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,520
Speaker 4: and slowly I became more convinced that the way to

584
00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:05,680
Speaker 4: sell a better book is to have the book be better.

585
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 6: And so now I became an editor.

586
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:10,399
Speaker 4: But then I was really not very good at that

587
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,480
Speaker 4: aspect of the job because I saw potential in every

588
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:16,720
Speaker 4: single book, Like it was very easy for me as

589
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 4: the marketing person to say this book will sell well

590
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:19,399
Speaker 4: and this one will not.

591
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:23,160
Speaker 6: But when it came to actually interacting the story. It's

592
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 6: very difficult for me to.

593
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 4: Say, Ah, this story can never get good enough and

594
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,120
Speaker 4: can never become a good enough you're as a writer,

595
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:33,040
Speaker 4: will never be written the way that we want it

596
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 4: to be written. And so I kind of immediately sort

597
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 4: of started my own side business editing books as a

598
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:43,959
Speaker 4: developmental story editor, which is a little different for those

599
00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 4: of you who don't know much about publishing. It's like

600
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 4: there is sort of the acquisitions editor, whose job it

601
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 4: is to sort of make the money work and make

602
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 4: it make sense, and they do give a lot of notes.

603
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 4: But developmental editors are the people that, like, as you're

604
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 4: writing the book, help you figure stuff out, and help

605
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,440
Speaker 4: you figure out your characters, and you.

606
00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,440
Speaker 6: Know, in some cases, just write better.

607
00:28:04,520 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 4: And so I started doing that on the side, and

608
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 4: then eventually that business grew to being my full time

609
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 4: job and I quit my big, stinky corporate job.

610
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 1: That must have been an amazing moment, right, It's.

611
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 4: An amazing moment that came a little bit with on

612
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:21,679
Speaker 4: the heels of a tiny amount of failure, Like I

613
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:26,359
Speaker 4: had had a memory breakdown, which I don't want to

614
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 4: go into too much detail here, not because it's not interesting,

615
00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 4: but because it's not what we're here to talk about.

616
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:33,119
Speaker 4: But I was spoken gibberish in a meeting. I was

617
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 4: very confused. I had fugue states. I was walking home strangely,

618
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 4: and it was kind of like this big moment where

619
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 4: it's like, Oh, you either have brain cancer and you're dying,

620
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 4: and this is your whole life just working sixty hours

621
00:28:45,360 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 4: a week making some amount of money that doesn't make

622
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:52,400
Speaker 4: you happy, or you are doing this to yourself. It's

623
00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 4: stress and you're creating this problem within your own brain.

624
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:57,840
Speaker 4: And it was like the dark night of this whole weekend,

625
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,160
Speaker 4: you know. And I kind of just looked at the

626
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:01,720
Speaker 4: math and I was like, I can make enough money

627
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 4: off my business and not be unhappy, and it kind

628
00:29:04,440 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 4: of doesn't matter if I have cancer if it's stress.

629
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:09,959
Speaker 4: So I quit my job and then found out I

630
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:12,200
Speaker 4: wasn't dying. You know that, you know the story has

631
00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 4: a happy ending for those you aren't sure, and.

632
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 6: It was stress.

633
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's great.

634
00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 6: It was a big moment for me when I got

635
00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:20,240
Speaker 6: to do that.

636
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 4: And then from there I was in publishing for a

637
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,960
Speaker 4: long time and I've been Blake Crutch's developmental editor since

638
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:32,120
Speaker 4: Pines and so when he was developing a couple of

639
00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 4: other projects. I've always been in the mix of that.

640
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,680
Speaker 4: And we were working on developing another television show that

641
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 4: was like pretty close to going, and we'd gotten pretty

642
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 4: far on the road with some producers, and there was

643
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 4: like money already starting to come in for it, and

644
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 4: Dark Matter got greenlit, and it was this immediate moment

645
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 4: where it was like, you.

646
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:51,920
Speaker 6: Can't do both. That's literally impossible.

647
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,720
Speaker 4: So it was like, Okay, well, I guess we'll do

648
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 4: Dark Matter instead. And that's kind of how the whole

649
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:01,560
Speaker 4: thing happened. It's so weird and but a lot of

650
00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:03,640
Speaker 4: fun too. I've really enjoyed the ride, wonderful.

651
00:30:03,640 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: Well, congrats in the show. It's a lot of fun.

652
00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: The show features a lot of themes of quantum mechanics,

653
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,680
Speaker 1: you know, that superposition, the multiverse. What is exciting to

654
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:16,239
Speaker 1: you as a writer about these themes. What opportunities and

655
00:30:16,320 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 1: challenges does that create that you were excited about.

656
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:22,520
Speaker 4: Wow, that's a really good question. Theme wise, I think

657
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 4: I'm very drawn to duality in general. I think there's

658
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,880
Speaker 4: something really fascinating about you know, for those of you

659
00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 4: who are watching the show, and if you haven't, I

660
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 4: don't want to spoil anything, but for those who've watched

661
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:39,400
Speaker 4: the show, we're dealing with one person who is expressed

662
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 4: in multiple versions of himself, and kind of how it

663
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 4: works is like we have Jason two and Jason one,

664
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 4: and they were the same person until fifteen years ago

665
00:30:47,520 --> 00:30:50,960
Speaker 4: when one decided to have a family and the other

666
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 4: decided to pursue his career. And to be clear, no

667
00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:55,480
Speaker 4: one here is saying you have to do one or

668
00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 4: the other, but like for this story, that has happened,

669
00:31:00,360 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 4: and it was.

670
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 6: The idea of like that.

671
00:31:03,400 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 4: Jason two later does a bunch of really i would say,

672
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 4: incredibly dastardly things and really horrifying, terrible things, and Jason

673
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 4: one kind of, you know, maintains this positivity.

674
00:31:15,680 --> 00:31:16,360
Speaker 6: He's a good guy.

675
00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,240
Speaker 4: But the reality is that they are the same person,

676
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 4: and when writing him and writing his actions and what

677
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:25,600
Speaker 4: he's doing, you have to actually look deep within yourself

678
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,160
Speaker 4: to the things that keep you from doing bad and

679
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 4: that or that keep you from doing good, and how

680
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 4: they are just like the Batman and the joke or

681
00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 4: they are two sides of the same coin. And that's

682
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 4: exciting to look at. It's exciting to think about you

683
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 4: know why we make the choices that we make and

684
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 4: who we are when you strip away all those trapings

685
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 4: of life and circumstances, like how would you actually interact

686
00:31:48,680 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 4: and react to things? So those are thematically the funnest things.

687
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 4: But I am a big sci fi dork, Like.

688
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 6: Definitely that's not I don't want to say not normal.

689
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:01,479
Speaker 4: That sounds really insulting, but you know, on the scale

690
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 4: of like, you know, the minutia and the science that

691
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 4: all really matters to me. So I was also equally

692
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,000
Speaker 4: excited to be able to go in here and be like,

693
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:14,719
Speaker 4: let's actually, you know, talk about some of these issues

694
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 4: to a wide audience of people. This kind of science

695
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,520
Speaker 4: is kind of thinking this. I do think of physics

696
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,920
Speaker 4: more as philosophy than anything else, this philosophical way of

697
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,680
Speaker 4: thinking about the universe, and expose that to a lot

698
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,360
Speaker 4: of people who would never normally choose this show because

699
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:37,000
Speaker 4: we made it about regular people doing regular things, and

700
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 4: the science is just it's another character. It's not the

701
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 4: focus of every second, and that was probably the most

702
00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 4: exciting part for me.

703
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: The show is sort of like a mystery or a thriller.

704
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 1: You're trying to like unravel what happened, And to me,

705
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,520
Speaker 1: I'm always really impressed when somebody writes that kind of

706
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: story in a science fiction universe because it's so challenging

707
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 1: for the audience to know if the rules are being

708
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: followed and what the rules are. How important is it

709
00:33:04,160 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: to you as a writer that the universe you've created

710
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: follows like a coherent and consistent set of rules, even

711
00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:12,280
Speaker 1: of course, if there aren't the rules of our universe,

712
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: or are you like, let's just make the story happen

713
00:33:14,560 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: and will you know, fill in some science frosting when

714
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:17,360
Speaker 1: we need to.

715
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 4: Oh, I'm definitely the more the first type. And this

716
00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:23,600
Speaker 4: goes back to being a developmental editor. You know, the tropes,

717
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 4: which is kind of what you're talking about, right, Like,

718
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 4: there's what the audience expects tropes. Like when I say mystery,

719
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 4: it means you don't know the solution to the problem

720
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 4: to the last twenty five percent of the show or

721
00:33:32,800 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 4: movie or book. Right, that's a mystery versus thriller, which

722
00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:38,200
Speaker 4: is like, you know the problem very early on, is

723
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:39,239
Speaker 4: how are you going to solve it?

724
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 6: You know? So like that's what the audiences expect.

725
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 4: And then there's the writing tropes like actually, how you

726
00:33:44,040 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 4: structure things. So like for example, fantasy, we structure it

727
00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:51,960
Speaker 4: where you have multiple stories interacting at various points, so

728
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:56,000
Speaker 4: you don't do that per se in like science fiction

729
00:33:56,160 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 4: usually that those are structural differences. So for me, like

730
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 4: when it comes to the mixing of like mystery and

731
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:05,800
Speaker 4: thriller and you know, all these different things into our

732
00:34:05,840 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 4: speculative fiction, I am pretty obsessed with the rules because I.

733
00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:11,840
Speaker 6: Think the rules are how you keep people grounded.

734
00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 4: So like there's the rules of the science, which I

735
00:34:14,880 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 4: think have to be established very early on, and it

736
00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 4: needs to be blunt, Like it's the one area in

737
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:20,920
Speaker 4: all of writing where you're like, hey, we can be.

738
00:34:20,920 --> 00:34:26,319
Speaker 6: On the nose here, just say which is lazy and fun.

739
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 7: Right.

740
00:34:27,200 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 6: Then there is the playing.

741
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:32,839
Speaker 4: With the rules, which is like the assumptions that we make,

742
00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 4: And there is the assumption that we make scientifically, like

743
00:34:36,000 --> 00:34:37,440
Speaker 4: consciousness connects to reality.

744
00:34:37,480 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 6: We know that that is some element of that is true.

745
00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:43,320
Speaker 4: Right, But then we sort of expand that out and say, Okay,

746
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 4: if consciousness connects to reality, then I guess you have

747
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 4: to have consciousness in this world in order to be

748
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 4: able to go to this world. So now how we

749
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:52,200
Speaker 4: have a rule you have to have been born in

750
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:53,480
Speaker 4: that world to be able to go there, And so

751
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:58,120
Speaker 4: it is a lot of fun to take theoretically realish

752
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,319
Speaker 4: rules and then sort of play with them as well.

753
00:35:01,360 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 4: I definitely think we did both in this show. And

754
00:35:03,760 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 4: I don't think you can ask people to trust you

755
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:09,520
Speaker 4: so much that you throw a bunch of nonsense to

756
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 4: the wall and say that's not real science, that's not

757
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,880
Speaker 4: real storytelling and expect people to go along with it.

758
00:35:13,920 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 4: Like people want to feel like they're satisfied at the

759
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 4: end of it, like, oh, I got it, and not

760
00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 4: only did I get it, I got something hard. And

761
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,440
Speaker 4: so we do have to always be coming back to

762
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,120
Speaker 4: the rules and always be coming back to the things

763
00:35:27,160 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 4: that makes sense, and always coming back to what you've

764
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,200
Speaker 4: established that it's also satisfying.

765
00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:32,839
Speaker 6: And that's a trope thing, you know.

766
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:36,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, how much of the rules of the universe

767
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,400
Speaker 1: you're writing in are the rules of our universe? And

768
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 1: how much did you like extend and fill in the

769
00:35:42,000 --> 00:35:44,319
Speaker 1: gaps where we just don't know how things work? And

770
00:35:44,360 --> 00:35:46,360
Speaker 1: also tell us a little bit about how you used

771
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 1: the science advisor in this show. I happen to know

772
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 1: Cliff Johnson.

773
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:51,799
Speaker 6: Quite well I'm in love with him. If you could

774
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:52,759
Speaker 6: let him know that, Like I.

775
00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 4: Think I think he knows, but if you could let

776
00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 4: him know, that's very terming. He is super charming and

777
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,440
Speaker 4: just really just nice and smart.

778
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

779
00:36:02,760 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 4: I asked him a question about entanglement once and he

780
00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:09,120
Speaker 4: was way too nice to me. How much of this

781
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:12,840
Speaker 4: is the rules of our universe? I hope my understanding

782
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,960
Speaker 4: is that, And God, I would love to know what

783
00:36:16,000 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 4: clif thinks.

784
00:36:17,560 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 6: I think it's.

785
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:24,320
Speaker 4: Probably eighty five percent theoretically possible, right, Like, we're playing

786
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 4: with math that exists for sure, but we're expanding it

787
00:36:30,080 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 4: pretty considerably in like just just go with me here,

788
00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 4: you know, we get philosophical too real, So I'd say, yeah,

789
00:36:40,080 --> 00:36:42,279
Speaker 4: it's pretty close. But there's definitely some stuff that's like,

790
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:44,920
Speaker 4: you know, totally bs that we just sort of, you know,

791
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 4: added in there because it's a lot of fun.

792
00:36:48,680 --> 00:36:49,839
Speaker 6: But I think the thing that we.

793
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 4: Play with more in our universe is sort of history.

794
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 4: I think that that's the more fun thing to play with,

795
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 4: like for me especially, but I also know for Blake,

796
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 4: getting the science as close to possible to being lausible

797
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 4: so that you could go out and interact with other

798
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 4: forms of this science and understand it better. That's really

799
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 4: important to us, and so we try to stay in

800
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:13,400
Speaker 4: that sphere. But like, you know, imagining a world where

801
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 4: completely different things happened, Like, that's a lot more fun

802
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 4: than playing with science, I think, and that tends to

803
00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:22,320
Speaker 4: be where we kind of really go off the rails.

804
00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 4: Like one of the worlds that we explore, World twenty

805
00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:27,320
Speaker 4: six is the sort of utopia world.

806
00:37:28,160 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 6: We're like, well, what if they just, you know.

807
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:33,440
Speaker 4: Instead of developing the bomb, what if they put all

808
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 4: those resources into creating what's called endless environmentally conscious energy, Right,

809
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:42,360
Speaker 4: what if that was what we did instead. That's not

810
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:45,160
Speaker 4: a judgment on the Manhattan Project. I grew up in Hamford.

811
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:47,880
Speaker 4: I tend to have a very strong attachment to that

812
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,200
Speaker 4: concept and that it's one of the greatest achievements in

813
00:37:51,239 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 4: all of human history, right, like doing that scale of

814
00:37:54,840 --> 00:37:56,359
Speaker 4: science and doing it that quickly, and.

815
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:57,760
Speaker 6: That engineering and on that thinking.

816
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,759
Speaker 4: But you know, the outcome wasn't really always like the

817
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 4: most pleasant thing, And so what if we'd done something

818
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,280
Speaker 4: inherently more positive? What does that mean if you chose

819
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 4: that over a destructive device. Well, you're probably in a

820
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:14,560
Speaker 4: world where there's more empathy. You're probably in a world

821
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 4: where where we communicate better, and so I think a

822
00:38:18,320 --> 00:38:21,560
Speaker 4: lot more liberty was taken with history and sociology than

823
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 4: was taken with real science, if you know what I mean.

824
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I think that's really creative. I really liked

825
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,240
Speaker 1: that part of the show. I found myself like excited

826
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:31,040
Speaker 1: every time they opened the door to a new universe,

827
00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:33,200
Speaker 1: like what's this one? What did they dream of this time?

828
00:38:33,239 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 1: And yeah, I was always impressed.

829
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:36,520
Speaker 4: I just want to say this because I didn't really

830
00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 4: answer your Cliver johnsonthing. Clifford was really great about being

831
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 4: a good carrot and stick guy.

832
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:44,360
Speaker 6: I just want to say that, like cliff.

833
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 4: Was like, yeah, I mean, sure, you could make it

834
00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 4: look like this, it's not a problem. But then I

835
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 4: remember there were a couple of times during in No

836
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,280
Speaker 4: Atmosphere World who we had charred and burned stuff places

837
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 4: and He's like, no, absolutely not, that would not happen.

838
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:57,359
Speaker 6: Those were not the colors. That's not how it would

839
00:38:57,360 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 6: look like.

840
00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:01,320
Speaker 4: I just love when you could tell that something really

841
00:39:01,360 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 4: matters to your scientific.

842
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:04,000
Speaker 6: Advice and you're like, oh, don't touch that.

843
00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, OK, yeah, well hopefully that's representative of like the

844
00:39:08,840 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: nerds watching your show, and you don't want to piss

845
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 1: them off either.

846
00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,879
Speaker 6: Absolutely, I don't like being wrong. I don't think anyone.

847
00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:17,760
Speaker 1: Does, right. So for the nerds out there in the audience,

848
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 1: of which I count myself one, since I get to

849
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:22,440
Speaker 1: talk to you, I do have some questions about the

850
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,040
Speaker 1: rules of the universe and how it works. One thing

851
00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 1: I was wondering about what you thought about how you

852
00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:30,759
Speaker 1: guys worked out, is how the box exists in the

853
00:39:30,800 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 1: other universes. Like if Jason creates the box in his universe,

854
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:37,040
Speaker 1: he builds it, he physically puts it together, then he

855
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 1: goes to another universe he steps out of the box.

856
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,399
Speaker 1: That box is also in that universe, And I found

857
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:44,239
Speaker 1: myself wondering, like who built it or how did that

858
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 1: come to be? Do you guys grapple with that kind

859
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,120
Speaker 1: of question? Are you just kind of like, hmm, we

860
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 1: need a little bit of fudge there.

861
00:39:50,480 --> 00:39:51,239
Speaker 6: You're going to get into there.

862
00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:53,200
Speaker 4: See now I'm going to contradict myself, like now we're

863
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 4: getting into woo wu Right.

864
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:56,440
Speaker 1: Okay, let's go there.

865
00:39:56,520 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, for sure, for sure, like we know the laws

866
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,960
Speaker 4: of thermodynamics would not allow this to happen, right, because

867
00:40:02,000 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 4: like our theory is that it spots and that it

868
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:06,720
Speaker 4: it just arrives there.

869
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:09,799
Speaker 6: Because it is a gateway. So once Jason creates.

870
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 4: It in his world, it's sort of like I guess

871
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:14,839
Speaker 4: I would describe it as like an anchor point.

872
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 6: It is the nexus by which all universes are connecting.

873
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 4: So in theory, when you see that box, say in

874
00:40:21,920 --> 00:40:24,880
Speaker 4: no atmosphere world or in the world where they're in

875
00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:28,880
Speaker 4: the water, that is actually the same box. It's just

876
00:40:28,960 --> 00:40:31,719
Speaker 4: being represented there physically so we can go in and out.

877
00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 4: And that's why the corridor is just the box repeating across,

878
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 4: because it's just your mind making sense of it. But definitely,

879
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 4: like you know, things start to fall apart when you

880
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 4: really think about it, because yeah, where did that energy?

881
00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:47,440
Speaker 4: Where did that matter come from? I mean, I think

882
00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 4: it's the same matter. But yeah, you send me some

883
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,120
Speaker 4: hate mail about that. It's probably not good.

884
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: No, it's just fun to think about. And I like

885
00:40:57,120 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 1: that the show encourages you to like think hard about

886
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:02,640
Speaker 1: how things work and what it means, and you know,

887
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,160
Speaker 1: it changes how the characters behave in the world. I

888
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:06,800
Speaker 1: think it is great. You know, it's a sign of

889
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,200
Speaker 1: a really good science fiction. But in this case, you

890
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 1: guys weren't just starting from scratch and creating something new.

891
00:41:12,160 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 1: I mean, Blake had written this novel already. What's it

892
00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 1: like to adapt a book like that to the screen

893
00:41:18,320 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 1: rather than start from scratch? What are the challenges there?

894
00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 4: I think the biggest challenge I'll start with that one,

895
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 4: which might reveal I'm a negative finger, But the biggest

896
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:31,720
Speaker 4: challenge is like what people expect, the expectations.

897
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,959
Speaker 6: You know. I helped Blake develop this.

898
00:41:35,000 --> 00:41:38,800
Speaker 4: Story, so I remember being in we were in Portland,

899
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 4: and like the idea of like, oh, how much your

900
00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:44,399
Speaker 4: emotions would affect the worlds that you land on came

901
00:41:44,440 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 4: directly from a dark conversation I was having with him

902
00:41:47,200 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 4: about RoboCop, you know what I mean, Like, so I'm

903
00:41:50,160 --> 00:41:52,280
Speaker 4: so immeshed in this story that.

904
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,040
Speaker 6: That aspect of it was very easy. It was like, oh, okay,

905
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 6: we can do that.

906
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,600
Speaker 4: But then you get letters from people that are like

907
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 4: I was considering, you know, ending my life, and then

908
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 4: I read this book and I thought I can actually

909
00:42:03,960 --> 00:42:07,480
Speaker 4: be empowered to make changes. And when you are facing

910
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 4: that kind of fan reaction, when you have literally hundreds

911
00:42:11,200 --> 00:42:13,800
Speaker 4: of people saying I hadn't read a book in twenty

912
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 4: years and I've read Dark Matter and one Day and

913
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:17,399
Speaker 4: I'm now a.

914
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 6: Big reader like that.

915
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,680
Speaker 4: I think that that had more of an emotional impact

916
00:42:21,719 --> 00:42:24,480
Speaker 4: on me than anything else. Was like how much the

917
00:42:24,520 --> 00:42:26,960
Speaker 4: story meant to a lot of people, and wanting to

918
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:32,200
Speaker 4: fulfill those fan love feelings, but also creating that now

919
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:35,200
Speaker 4: for a whole new audience of people who for whatever

920
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 4: reason would never read this book but will engage with

921
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:38,399
Speaker 4: this material in this way.

922
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 6: So that was probably the biggest challenge, was.

923
00:42:41,560 --> 00:42:45,720
Speaker 4: Figuring out where to be true to that original stuff

924
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:48,600
Speaker 4: to make the fans happy, but also solicit that same.

925
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:50,840
Speaker 6: Emotional reaction from new people.

926
00:42:52,520 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 4: I would say the funnest part about it, for sure,

927
00:42:55,960 --> 00:42:59,839
Speaker 4: I love producing like I think the funnest part is

928
00:43:00,120 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 4: like looking at seven hundred versions of ash World that's

929
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:06,160
Speaker 4: the world where the balt Worlds are crumbling, and watching

930
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 4: that VFX like for the seven thousandth time and being like,

931
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 4: I'd like this window to be slightly brighter, Like it

932
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,040
Speaker 4: just speaks to some deeper OCD that I might have

933
00:43:16,640 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 4: from a writing standpoint, though, like adapting this book, I

934
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:23,480
Speaker 4: think that the funnest part about it was getting to

935
00:43:23,520 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 4: expand the characters, because we don't really know Amanda, we

936
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 4: don't really know Daniella, we don't really know Charlie.

937
00:43:31,400 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 6: We kind of get to know Ryan a little, but

938
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:35,680
Speaker 6: we don't know him. We definitely don't know Layton.

939
00:43:36,360 --> 00:43:39,000
Speaker 4: And you need to know them for the show to

940
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 4: make sense, Like, you know, you need to expand everyone,

941
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:43,880
Speaker 4: because when you see them and they don't have reactions

942
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 4: to certain things, it's not a flaw of the book.

943
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 4: The book is a single POV game. It doesn't matter

944
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,800
Speaker 4: what else is happening around you. But now you're actually

945
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,520
Speaker 4: asking humans to embody that and we have to know

946
00:43:54,600 --> 00:43:57,120
Speaker 4: more about them, And that was the most exciting I think,

947
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:01,240
Speaker 4: besides being weird about details and color of watches Jason

948
00:44:01,239 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 4: wearing in this scene and what color shirt is he wearing?

949
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 4: Seen to make that all work those puzzles, aside, expanding

950
00:44:08,440 --> 00:44:10,920
Speaker 4: the characters, especially the women, was the best part of

951
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:11,440
Speaker 4: the whole thing.

952
00:44:11,760 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 1: Well. As a viewer, I found one of the greatest challenges,

953
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 1: just like keeping track of like which Jason am I

954
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,319
Speaker 1: watching now, especially you know later on when you get

955
00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,120
Speaker 1: so many different Jason's how do you handle that? As

956
00:44:22,120 --> 00:44:24,160
Speaker 1: a writer, how do you give the audience the clue,

957
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:27,040
Speaker 1: you know, without like giving everybody a unique haircut, you know,

958
00:44:27,160 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 1: or have ring a number over their head.

959
00:44:29,160 --> 00:44:29,399
Speaker 2: Yeah.

960
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:31,480
Speaker 4: I mean that was probably one of the hardest things

961
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:34,920
Speaker 4: to do, because the easiest answer is, like, you know,

962
00:44:34,920 --> 00:44:36,879
Speaker 4: because we have for those of you who've seen eight,

963
00:44:37,520 --> 00:44:38,720
Speaker 4: we have burn face Jason.

964
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:40,680
Speaker 6: We have Jason thirteen.

965
00:44:40,719 --> 00:44:45,760
Speaker 4: Who's the guy that talks to Jason one in the tavern.

966
00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 4: I want to call it the David Davin. That's the

967
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 4: real name of the village chap story. When they're talking, like,

968
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:53,880
Speaker 4: these characters look different, so it makes it a lot easier.

969
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:57,960
Speaker 4: But when we start getting into the fifty other Jasons

970
00:44:58,000 --> 00:45:00,879
Speaker 4: that are there, that was a lot harder. And what

971
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,279
Speaker 4: I ended up doing with our costumer and our hair

972
00:45:03,320 --> 00:45:06,800
Speaker 4: and makeup people was in our eighties because those people

973
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,240
Speaker 4: really need to understand what's happening. They have to organize

974
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:11,880
Speaker 4: this whole thing. Was creating like a rubric of like

975
00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:15,839
Speaker 4: based on how violent the Jason is, we determined that

976
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,000
Speaker 4: that is when he lost his Amanda because we feel

977
00:45:18,000 --> 00:45:19,480
Speaker 4: like Amanda psychologist.

978
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 6: She's giving him.

979
00:45:20,800 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 4: We see the whole show, she's giving him therapy the

980
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:24,120
Speaker 4: whole time, she's comforting him.

981
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:25,520
Speaker 6: She's helping him figure this stuff out.

982
00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 4: So the earlier Amanda dies or leaves him, is the

983
00:45:32,160 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 4: more violent and more you know, sort of crazed and

984
00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 4: unhinged the Jason is because we know that that's in him.

985
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 6: We've established that.

986
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 4: We've seen Prison World, where Jason has obviously done something

987
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,719
Speaker 4: terrible to someone. We've seen what Jason too is capable of.

988
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,839
Speaker 4: We know that Jason One's capable, So it's about what

989
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:51,760
Speaker 4: actually breaks his brain and how.

990
00:45:51,640 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 6: Broken is it. And so once we knew what that was, we.

991
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:59,280
Speaker 4: Just focused the costumes on where we think he branched

992
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:03,120
Speaker 4: from Amanda. So careful viewers will see, like Jason in

993
00:46:03,520 --> 00:46:06,000
Speaker 4: the snow outfit from Snow World, if he's still in

994
00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 4: that outfit, that means Amanda died close or left him

995
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:10,520
Speaker 4: close to that time period. So that means that he

996
00:46:10,560 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 4: went twenty days alone in the box, which is a

997
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:18,279
Speaker 4: lot crazier than going three days on the box because

998
00:46:18,320 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 4: what our Jason did, So that kind of makes big

999
00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:23,320
Speaker 4: difference if you look back, like some of the first

1000
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:25,720
Speaker 4: guy that gets killed by Jason One in the Alley,

1001
00:46:25,760 --> 00:46:28,399
Speaker 4: the most violent guy that we've seen so far, he's

1002
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:30,919
Speaker 4: wearing the original costume, so that was kind of fun

1003
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 4: to play with. And then we just did really settle

1004
00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:36,239
Speaker 4: things from there green Beanie or blue Beanie, you know,

1005
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:39,000
Speaker 4: like just so that you could know it's not the

1006
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 4: exact same guy you saw last time. But we also

1007
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:45,520
Speaker 4: embraced the idea that like it kind of also doesn't matter,

1008
00:46:45,560 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 4: like if you're a little bit confused here and there,

1009
00:46:47,320 --> 00:46:49,960
Speaker 4: that's actually part of the joys, Like, you know, it's

1010
00:46:49,960 --> 00:46:51,799
Speaker 4: the same thing in Sceptin. Does do we know if

1011
00:46:51,840 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 4: he got home? Like I think he didn't aside, but

1012
00:46:56,320 --> 00:46:58,480
Speaker 4: it's kind of like doesn't matter. That's not the story

1013
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 4: we're telling. The story we're telling is out the complexities

1014
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:04,640
Speaker 4: of coming back to your life. That's what we're talking about.

1015
00:47:04,920 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 4: So I think it doesn't really matter. But yeah, it's

1016
00:47:07,080 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 4: definitely all very carefully planned. And if you freeze the

1017
00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:11,520
Speaker 4: show and you look at the color of the ring

1018
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:13,040
Speaker 4: of thread on their fingers, and you look at the

1019
00:47:13,080 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 4: color of their hats, you will actually be able to

1020
00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:15,879
Speaker 4: tell who is here.

1021
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:18,240
Speaker 1: Awesome. I'm sure somebody out there on Reddit is doing.

1022
00:47:18,120 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 6: Exactly or they're not.

1023
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:23,080
Speaker 4: They're probably getting like hack into my computer, I get

1024
00:47:23,080 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 4: the self you'll know.

1025
00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:30,720
Speaker 1: Everything, So I asked our listeners if they have questions

1026
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,239
Speaker 1: for you, and listeners who are watching the show. We've

1027
00:47:33,239 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 1: only seen six or seven episodes so far. Their number

1028
00:47:35,760 --> 00:47:39,160
Speaker 1: one question was why is it called dark matter? And

1029
00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:41,920
Speaker 1: obviously the physics in the show, but it's mostly like multiverse,

1030
00:47:42,000 --> 00:47:45,440
Speaker 1: quantum mechanics, superposition. Where's the dark matter in the show?

1031
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,839
Speaker 4: It came from a conversation and I was there for it,

1032
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:51,480
Speaker 4: but you know, it might be good to ask Cliff

1033
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:57,360
Speaker 4: actually about this. The there's a debate if dark matter exists, right.

1034
00:47:57,200 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 6: And there's also a debate about what it does.

1035
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:02,319
Speaker 4: And like black holes, it's like I personally believe in

1036
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:04,520
Speaker 4: the sort of mirror universe of going through the black hole,

1037
00:48:04,600 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 4: like you know, the chair just exists on the other side.

1038
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 4: That's maybe not scientifically very accurate, but I think it's

1039
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 4: an interesting theory. So that idea of the complete sort

1040
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:16,879
Speaker 4: of unknown. But also it's a word that you've heard

1041
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:18,600
Speaker 4: enough that you're like, ah, science fiction.

1042
00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:20,799
Speaker 6: That's honestly the truth, like she is like.

1043
00:48:23,400 --> 00:48:24,720
Speaker 1: Mysterious science.

1044
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:26,360
Speaker 6: Ye science see.

1045
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:29,520
Speaker 4: And it doesn't actually if you dig into it actually

1046
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 4: for sure mean anything yet like it's still you know,

1047
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 4: like yeah, so yeah, but It's also a little confusing

1048
00:48:35,920 --> 00:48:38,239
Speaker 4: because you know, Pearl Jams out there touring with Dark Matter,

1049
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:41,600
Speaker 4: and so, you know, maybe the most ideal name either.

1050
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:45,879
Speaker 1: So my last question for you is a more personal one.

1051
00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:47,960
Speaker 1: Imagine you have the box in front of you. You

1052
00:48:47,960 --> 00:48:50,960
Speaker 1: can go inside of it, you can visit another universe

1053
00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 1: in which you exist. What's your alternative reality? What are

1054
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 1: you choosing?

1055
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:55,440
Speaker 2: Like?

1056
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 6: Am I intentionally choosing?

1057
00:48:57,600 --> 00:48:59,240
Speaker 4: Like I get to go see a version of myself

1058
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 4: not like a cent atways, sort of wash up on

1059
00:49:01,719 --> 00:49:02,840
Speaker 4: shore at a terrible place.

1060
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:05,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, you can pick some other version of your life

1061
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 1: to go visit, or you know, kidnap and replace them.

1062
00:49:09,160 --> 00:49:09,839
Speaker 1: Where are you going?

1063
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 6: Huh?

1064
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,960
Speaker 4: You know, the first thing I really wanted to do

1065
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 4: with my life. I went to like a music magnet

1066
00:49:16,480 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 4: high school, and I was very involved in music, and

1067
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 4: for a long time I thought I was going to

1068
00:49:20,680 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 4: be a musician. And it's one of those sort of

1069
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,200
Speaker 4: stories I think that everyone has, where like you get

1070
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:29,360
Speaker 4: to a certain point in your process where you realize

1071
00:49:29,400 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 4: that it's not that you are not that you're a

1072
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:37,880
Speaker 4: hard worker, you're actually not talented, and some careers require

1073
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 4: a certain level of actual talent and the realization that

1074
00:49:42,160 --> 00:49:46,720
Speaker 4: I was not good enough to actually have the future

1075
00:49:46,960 --> 00:49:48,960
Speaker 4: as like a composer and musician that I thought I

1076
00:49:49,000 --> 00:49:52,239
Speaker 4: was going to have was a really brutal one, and

1077
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:55,479
Speaker 4: I often wonder if there is a world where I

1078
00:49:55,560 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 4: hadn't decided that I wasn't good enough, and if I

1079
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 4: had continued to fight and be that level.

1080
00:50:02,120 --> 00:50:05,239
Speaker 6: Of brave, you know, what would that life be like.

1081
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,280
Speaker 4: I'm not saying she would have succeeded, but I would

1082
00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:10,319
Speaker 4: like to see what she did, you know, that's the

1083
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:11,359
Speaker 4: curiosity of mine.

1084
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:13,680
Speaker 1: Awesome, Well, it would be cool to get to go

1085
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,239
Speaker 1: and you know, attend one of your own concerts in

1086
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:18,920
Speaker 1: another place in the multiverse. Very cool.

1087
00:50:19,200 --> 00:50:20,520
Speaker 6: Let me ask you what would yours be?

1088
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:28,399
Speaker 1: Wow? A great question. I'm totally not prepared for that. Yeah. Well,

1089
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 1: you know, physicist is sort of what I always wanted

1090
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:32,400
Speaker 1: to be, so I don't have that, Like, Oh I

1091
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 1: wish I had gotten to be, But there are other

1092
00:50:34,640 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: paths that I didn't take. You know, when I was young,

1093
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,200
Speaker 1: I also wanted to be an artist or a science

1094
00:50:39,280 --> 00:50:41,640
Speaker 1: fiction author, for example, and never got to do that.

1095
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'd like to go see if that would

1096
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:46,759
Speaker 1: have worked out for another version, of Daniel.

1097
00:50:46,920 --> 00:50:49,960
Speaker 6: You still could anyway, it's right book.

1098
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:53,560
Speaker 1: Like you know, well, I live in southern California where

1099
00:50:53,600 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 1: you're obliged to produce the screenplay every two years with

1100
00:50:56,120 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 1: your citizenship. You know, totally, totally awesome. Well, thanks very

1101
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:03,480
Speaker 1: much for answering your question, and thanks for this wonderful show.

1102
00:51:04,080 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 1: Speaking for everybody out there, we're really glad you created it.

1103
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 3: Thank you, all right, thank you, all right, interesting conversation there.

1104
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 3: It's kind of interesting how as a TV writer you

1105
00:51:26,360 --> 00:51:28,760
Speaker 3: kind of have to think about what the science tells

1106
00:51:28,760 --> 00:51:30,560
Speaker 3: you might be possible, and then you kind of have

1107
00:51:30,640 --> 00:51:32,239
Speaker 3: to figure out how to get a good story out

1108
00:51:32,280 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 3: of that.

1109
00:51:32,920 --> 00:51:35,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, you got to balance both things. If you're

1110
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:37,239
Speaker 1: too strict on the science, it doesn't let you tell

1111
00:51:37,239 --> 00:51:39,520
Speaker 1: the story you want to tell. But you also have

1112
00:51:39,600 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 1: to be plausible, right, You have to have the story

1113
00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:43,880
Speaker 1: makes sense so that the viewer is engaged. It feels

1114
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:45,960
Speaker 1: like there are rules that are being followed.

1115
00:51:46,400 --> 00:51:48,960
Speaker 3: I feel like, Daniel, do you have a flexible rule yourself.

1116
00:51:49,080 --> 00:51:50,040
Speaker 1: It's that flexible room.

1117
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:52,680
Speaker 3: Sometimes you like when the rules are followed, sometimes you don't.

1118
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:55,680
Speaker 1: I always prefer when the rules are followed, but you know,

1119
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 1: you can't be too harsh. You prefer you prefer right

1120
00:51:59,680 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 1: strong preference.

1121
00:52:00,640 --> 00:52:02,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, all right, Well, Dan, you also got to interview

1122
00:52:02,680 --> 00:52:05,080
Speaker 3: the scientific advisor for the show, which is a friend

1123
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:06,160
Speaker 3: of ours, Cliff Johnson.

1124
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1125
00:52:06,760 --> 00:52:09,320
Speaker 1: He's a professor at UC Santa Barbara and an expert

1126
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 1: in string theory and black holes and in general quantum

1127
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 1: mechanics and a lot of fun to talk to.

1128
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:17,120
Speaker 3: Is he an expert in dark matter or multiverses?

1129
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:20,960
Speaker 1: I think he's an expert in being a science advisor.

1130
00:52:21,000 --> 00:52:22,720
Speaker 1: He's also worked for a lot of the Marvel movies.

1131
00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:25,480
Speaker 3: If you're an expert in the multiverses, does that make

1132
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,360
Speaker 3: you an expert in everything? Like, there's a version of

1133
00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:31,279
Speaker 3: you out there that's probably an expert in some other

1134
00:52:31,320 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 3: field that you currently don't know.

1135
00:52:33,200 --> 00:52:35,600
Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah exactly. If only you could draw on

1136
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:36,520
Speaker 1: their expertise.

1137
00:52:36,840 --> 00:52:39,560
Speaker 3: Whoa, you can make a movie like The Matrix but

1138
00:52:39,680 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 3: with multiverses, the multi tricks. Yeah, Hollywood, give me a call.

1139
00:52:44,600 --> 00:52:48,840
Speaker 3: All right, Well, here is Daniel's interview with physicist Cliff Johnson.

1140
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:51,000
Speaker 1: Great, so that it's my pleasure to be here in

1141
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:53,359
Speaker 1: a conversation with Cliff Johnson. Cliff, tell everybody a little

1142
00:52:53,400 --> 00:52:56,320
Speaker 1: bit about who you are, what you're excited about in science.

1143
00:52:57,280 --> 00:53:01,440
Speaker 2: Well, I am a professor at the Clasics Department at

1144
00:53:01,480 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 2: the University of California in Santa Barbara. I work on

1145
00:53:05,840 --> 00:53:08,920
Speaker 2: things to do with roughly these days, I say, like

1146
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:12,800
Speaker 2: a quantum nature of space time. So interested in quantum gravity?

1147
00:53:12,920 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 2: Black hold what it through? Your quantum gravity looks like?

1148
00:53:15,960 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 2: So I work on things like string theory, et cetera,

1149
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:23,720
Speaker 2: but really thinking about space time and space and time

1150
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:26,319
Speaker 2: and what it means at the quantum metal. It's really

1151
00:53:26,360 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 2: like on the cutting edge of understanding the nature of

1152
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:33,360
Speaker 2: the universe. So tell me about what it's like to

1153
00:53:33,400 --> 00:53:35,480
Speaker 2: be a science advisor a show like this. What do

1154
00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:37,480
Speaker 2: you see as the role of the science advisor?

1155
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:38,279
Speaker 1: What is your job?

1156
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:43,759
Speaker 2: So this is a really important question because there is

1157
00:53:43,800 --> 00:53:46,280
Speaker 2: no model for what a science advisor should be, because

1158
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:48,920
Speaker 2: the industry still doesn't really know what that is. And

1159
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 2: some of that A lot of us been working to

1160
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:54,520
Speaker 2: try and help cement that. And I think what we

1161
00:53:54,520 --> 00:53:58,279
Speaker 2: shouldn't do is going with a red pencil and make

1162
00:53:58,320 --> 00:54:02,600
Speaker 2: it seem like we own this stuff and they're daring

1163
00:54:02,640 --> 00:54:03,880
Speaker 2: to play with it, and we're going to give them

1164
00:54:03,920 --> 00:54:08,920
Speaker 2: a grade because they'll never fall right. Others have different opinions,

1165
00:54:09,239 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 2: but my opinion is that the primary thing of that

1166
00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:14,040
Speaker 2: to do is to serve the story they're trying to tell,

1167
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 2: and to help them tell the story they want to tell. Now,

1168
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 2: sometimes you can give them advice given what they want

1169
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:23,919
Speaker 2: to do in the science that they think they want

1170
00:54:23,960 --> 00:54:27,759
Speaker 2: to use. You might then say, well, if you tell

1171
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 2: me what your story goal is, I might help you

1172
00:54:31,239 --> 00:54:33,640
Speaker 2: tweet that a little bit. Or maybe you don't need

1173
00:54:33,640 --> 00:54:36,280
Speaker 2: this piece, or here's a whole other bit of science

1174
00:54:36,320 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 2: who don't know that could be brought in to help

1175
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:40,960
Speaker 2: you achieve that, And they're very open to that because

1176
00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:44,320
Speaker 2: now you want the storytellers sign and you're just trying

1177
00:54:44,360 --> 00:54:47,560
Speaker 2: to serve a story. And then sometimes that can lead

1178
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:50,399
Speaker 2: to the story geting completely because they get excited about

1179
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:53,680
Speaker 2: the science. They now understand that bit of science pacts.

1180
00:54:53,719 --> 00:54:55,840
Speaker 2: They only read about it in a popular account and

1181
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:58,920
Speaker 2: maybe misunderstood. Now they understand it now they see, oh,

1182
00:54:58,960 --> 00:55:00,759
Speaker 2: I want to use this aspect more, or you tell

1183
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:03,759
Speaker 2: them so it really is. I think if you go in,

1184
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:06,759
Speaker 2: in my opinion, if you go in wanting to help

1185
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 2: with the story, great things can come from that, especially

1186
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:13,080
Speaker 2: if that's early enough in the process that they're not

1187
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:19,279
Speaker 2: wedded to everything being completely set. And so then I

1188
00:55:19,280 --> 00:55:21,640
Speaker 2: think science advising works is streaming. Well, you have all

1189
00:55:21,680 --> 00:55:24,879
Speaker 2: the other times when you're called in you should guy,

1190
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:27,560
Speaker 2: you know, some big studio, it's all ready to go,

1191
00:55:27,680 --> 00:55:30,919
Speaker 2: they're almost ready to shoot, and then they want some buzzwords.

1192
00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 2: You know, that's only so much you can do that.

1193
00:55:33,440 --> 00:55:38,000
Speaker 2: But if you get to kind of almost become a collaborator,

1194
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:41,880
Speaker 2: someone to brainstorm, and if you then stick through it

1195
00:55:41,960 --> 00:55:44,600
Speaker 2: right through to the end, you can get some great things.

1196
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:48,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, fascinating. Well, I think sometimes about the responsibility there,

1197
00:55:48,480 --> 00:55:51,600
Speaker 1: because a lot of people watch science fiction and they

1198
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:54,120
Speaker 1: know it's fiction, but still a here buzz words to

1199
00:55:54,160 --> 00:55:57,799
Speaker 1: hear science, and they absorb it. And I wonder sometimes

1200
00:55:57,840 --> 00:56:01,640
Speaker 1: if there's a responsibility to show to get that right

1201
00:56:01,719 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 1: and not use lead people into like common misunderstandings about

1202
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:05,960
Speaker 1: what is dark knight?

1203
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:06,719
Speaker 2: What does it look like?

1204
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:08,560
Speaker 1: You know, he said a dark lag in front of

1205
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 1: your spaceship or not. What do you feel about that?

1206
00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:14,600
Speaker 1: Is that science advisor has some responsibility there. We have

1207
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 1: some responsibility to tell a little bit about what it's

1208
00:56:18,200 --> 00:56:21,920
Speaker 1: really like you we that you know, there's no contract.

1209
00:56:21,920 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 1: This is they must use a certain percientage of what

1210
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 1: we tell them, right, right, so how you know it's

1211
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:28,560
Speaker 1: an advisor.

1212
00:56:28,920 --> 00:56:32,800
Speaker 2: I'm an advisor, so so I'll do my best to say, well,

1213
00:56:33,000 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 2: it wouldn't really look like this, or if it does,

1214
00:56:35,840 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 2: maybe you have a reason you could mention that, or

1215
00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 2: maybe what have you. But what happens. And this is

1216
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:46,319
Speaker 2: by no means intended as an apology for science advisors,

1217
00:56:46,800 --> 00:56:52,120
Speaker 2: but it's all the process, right these these projects. It's

1218
00:56:52,200 --> 00:56:54,279
Speaker 2: very different being a science advisor to say, on a

1219
00:56:54,320 --> 00:56:56,720
Speaker 2: book where you're dealing with the author of the book,

1220
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:00,839
Speaker 2: versus being a science advisor to a thing that goes

1221
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:01,800
Speaker 2: into a big machine.

1222
00:57:01,840 --> 00:57:06,600
Speaker 8: As almost any project that you see on screen will be.

1223
00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:09,680
Speaker 8: It will have gone through many stages. They've gone from

1224
00:57:09,680 --> 00:57:12,920
Speaker 8: any iterations. You may have been the science advisor with

1225
00:57:13,000 --> 00:57:14,120
Speaker 8: the screenwriter who.

1226
00:57:14,000 --> 00:57:17,720
Speaker 2: Wrote the old beautiful science and then and then you know,

1227
00:57:18,360 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 2: four years later you go and watch the thing and

1228
00:57:22,240 --> 00:57:24,960
Speaker 2: it is not the thing that one was the final

1229
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:27,720
Speaker 2: screenplay that you saw, because it went from the screenwriter

1230
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:31,080
Speaker 2: to the studio to the director. They found for the

1231
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:33,600
Speaker 2: director had their own vision, blah blah, blah blah. So

1232
00:57:34,960 --> 00:57:39,920
Speaker 2: you have no control, but you try and you hope

1233
00:57:39,960 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 2: you can get the key people involved excited enough about

1234
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:46,760
Speaker 2: the science that they care to protect some of the

1235
00:57:46,760 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 2: things that you got into the screenplay or what have you,

1236
00:57:49,840 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 2: and on maybe you know some of your Later at

1237
00:57:52,400 --> 00:57:54,640
Speaker 2: the stage where they're shooting, you get a call saying, hey,

1238
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 2: you were the screen you helped the screenwriter. Now please

1239
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:01,320
Speaker 2: help the VFX people. Rightff like that. That's great. That

1240
00:58:01,480 --> 00:58:04,280
Speaker 2: seldom happens, but when that happens, that's great because then

1241
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:06,400
Speaker 2: there's some continuity you can kind of look at a

1242
00:58:06,440 --> 00:58:07,120
Speaker 2: different stages.

1243
00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:09,000
Speaker 1: So tell us a little bit about what were the

1244
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:11,880
Speaker 1: challenges of being scientificeder for this particular show. Because they

1245
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:15,640
Speaker 1: got quantum mechanics, they got multiverse, they got the observer effect,

1246
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:17,080
Speaker 1: they got all sorts of stuff going on.

1247
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 2: What did you do there?

1248
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:20,400
Speaker 1: How did you change this story?

1249
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:25,240
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I first have to say huge amount

1250
00:58:25,320 --> 00:58:28,280
Speaker 2: of credit to Blake like Crouch, the author of the

1251
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:30,080
Speaker 2: book it was originally based on, and then you know

1252
00:58:30,160 --> 00:58:34,160
Speaker 2: he's also the showrunner. A side note, there's a big

1253
00:58:34,160 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 2: difference between TV and movies. In some ways, TV is

1254
00:58:38,880 --> 00:58:40,840
Speaker 2: very much more righteous. In him the people who do

1255
00:58:40,880 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 2: the writing end up. You know, the director works for

1256
00:58:43,920 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 2: them and it's refress approximation. The showrunners have the fible

1257
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:52,200
Speaker 2: side that's very different in some of the models you

1258
00:58:52,280 --> 00:58:54,920
Speaker 2: get in a big, big cinema. So that means that

1259
00:58:55,000 --> 00:58:59,200
Speaker 2: I think Blake, who's hugely enthusiastic about science and it's

1260
00:58:59,320 --> 00:59:03,480
Speaker 2: very open to hearing critiques and hearing new ideas and

1261
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:08,400
Speaker 2: incorporating that, he was also in control of the final show.

1262
00:59:08,520 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 2: So I got the call to come in and chat

1263
00:59:11,760 --> 00:59:16,360
Speaker 2: with the various departments and they basically said Blake said

1264
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 2: do whatever you say. That never happened. So at the

1265
00:59:23,200 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 2: end of the day, I think the main ideas were there,

1266
00:59:27,400 --> 00:59:30,320
Speaker 2: and so credit to Blake that the main ideas were there.

1267
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 9: He really wanted is fascinated by the classic conundra in

1268
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:37,920
Speaker 9: quantum mechanics, but then he wanted to play with the

1269
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:42,000
Speaker 9: idea that essentially, wouldn't it be fun if you took

1270
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:47,040
Speaker 9: literally the everiety of interpretation of quantum mechanics, which is

1271
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:49,840
Speaker 9: that these probabilistic choices that you seem to have in

1272
00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:53,320
Speaker 9: quantum mechanics really are granches of the verse.

1273
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:55,280
Speaker 2: You know, you know, you had a fifty to fifty

1274
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:57,800
Speaker 2: chances of the quantum outcome being this way or the other,

1275
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:03,080
Speaker 2: and you could just go, well, that's life. That's that's probability.

1276
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:05,160
Speaker 2: But the cat was alive or it was dead when

1277
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 2: you made the observation. Everyone will tell you know, there's

1278
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 2: another universe in which it was the other, and then

1279
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:13,480
Speaker 2: that universe carried on, and so these choices mount up

1280
01:00:13,480 --> 01:00:17,200
Speaker 2: and the universe continues branching. So Blake was going, well, well,

1281
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:20,360
Speaker 2: if you could explore those universes and essentially that's what

1282
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:23,880
Speaker 2: this is about, and then what would that mean physics wise?

1283
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:29,600
Speaker 2: So there's some there's some relatively old fashioned ideas about

1284
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:32,320
Speaker 2: the collapse of the weight function and things like that

1285
01:00:32,360 --> 01:00:34,920
Speaker 2: when you make an observation of the wave function collapses.

1286
01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:39,360
Speaker 2: We tend to not really foreground that as much when

1287
01:00:39,400 --> 01:00:42,600
Speaker 2: we teach corantumic ads as we used to. And so

1288
01:00:43,000 --> 01:00:46,000
Speaker 2: I was trying to explain to Blake a little bit

1289
01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:48,160
Speaker 2: about some of the language that people use these days

1290
01:00:48,200 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 2: in terms of coherence versus do coherence coupling systems.

1291
01:00:53,320 --> 01:00:55,640
Speaker 7: That it's, you know, how much can you isolate a

1292
01:00:55,680 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 7: system from its environment so it doesn't sort of decohere

1293
01:00:59,720 --> 01:01:03,720
Speaker 7: the couple to another system and what have you, And.

1294
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:05,680
Speaker 2: Those are the things you need to control if you

1295
01:01:05,760 --> 01:01:09,440
Speaker 2: were going to do that as a physics experiment. So

1296
01:01:09,480 --> 01:01:11,440
Speaker 2: that leads to them, what would that look like? What

1297
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:14,080
Speaker 2: would that device look like? So that's the box. So

1298
01:01:14,120 --> 01:01:15,920
Speaker 2: it spend a lot of time discussing what the box

1299
01:01:15,920 --> 01:01:18,600
Speaker 2: would look like, this, like that, and what's in the

1300
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:20,760
Speaker 2: walls of those bombs. So you don't of course, you

1301
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 2: never learned that in the book or in the in

1302
01:01:24,400 --> 01:01:28,200
Speaker 2: the show explicitly, but you do hear a discussion or

1303
01:01:28,240 --> 01:01:31,080
Speaker 2: too about the fact that there's tech going on that

1304
01:01:31,200 --> 01:01:34,360
Speaker 2: sort of cancels out things from the outside. And so

1305
01:01:34,400 --> 01:01:36,040
Speaker 2: those are the sorts of things that was giving him

1306
01:01:36,080 --> 01:01:38,400
Speaker 2: to make it seem at least.

1307
01:01:39,040 --> 01:01:41,560
Speaker 9: Another aspect of my job is that while you're watching

1308
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:44,320
Speaker 9: the thing, you're not popping out going that's ridiculous or

1309
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:45,280
Speaker 9: that doesn't make sense for it.

1310
01:01:45,520 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 2: You're at least in the two hours of what have you,

1311
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:51,640
Speaker 2: the movie or the hour of the episode, you're going

1312
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:52,040
Speaker 2: with it.

1313
01:01:52,720 --> 01:01:57,240
Speaker 8: So to help the physicists have a plausible sounding conversation

1314
01:01:57,320 --> 01:02:01,720
Speaker 8: with a plausible sounding content, that helps make it seem realistic.

1315
01:02:02,200 --> 01:02:05,880
Speaker 2: So indeed, I'm very pleased to you know, when I

1316
01:02:05,920 --> 01:02:09,440
Speaker 2: finally saw episodes of the show, I was very pleased

1317
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:11,520
Speaker 2: to see a lot of that stuff stayed in. And

1318
01:02:12,280 --> 01:02:14,800
Speaker 2: some of that stuff was my scribbling on the screenplay

1319
01:02:14,840 --> 01:02:18,240
Speaker 2: saying this is what they would say. And I gather

1320
01:02:18,400 --> 01:02:20,680
Speaker 2: people really like that. You know, you hear, you see

1321
01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:22,240
Speaker 2: the box, and you have a sense that this is

1322
01:02:22,280 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 2: a real thing. Pold it up. So we wanted to

1323
01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:27,440
Speaker 2: have weight, put it to feel real, wanted to have

1324
01:02:27,520 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 2: it still feel like it's a prototype. So it's a

1325
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 2: little sort of sort of sort of grungey looking, and

1326
01:02:34,400 --> 01:02:36,560
Speaker 2: so and so forth. That's what you really think is

1327
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:37,000
Speaker 2: our job.

1328
01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:37,400
Speaker 1: We're not.

1329
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:42,920
Speaker 2: We're not doing a documentary. But if you as much

1330
01:02:42,960 --> 01:02:46,160
Speaker 2: as the creators will listen, I'll give you enough material

1331
01:02:46,400 --> 01:02:50,560
Speaker 2: so that if if someone watching it digs a little bit,

1332
01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:53,000
Speaker 2: they'll find there's more there there It isn't sort of

1333
01:02:53,280 --> 01:02:56,000
Speaker 2: first level and then it all falls apart, so you

1334
01:02:56,040 --> 01:03:00,480
Speaker 2: will see, you know, the character Jason go writings through

1335
01:03:00,520 --> 01:03:03,520
Speaker 2: his notebooks at some point where talking about the original

1336
01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:07,400
Speaker 2: design of the box. That is full of equations that

1337
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:11,960
Speaker 2: I gave them and that's real, uh, quantum physics. I

1338
01:03:11,960 --> 01:03:16,640
Speaker 2: had some friends of mine who actually do real quantum information.

1339
01:03:16,280 --> 01:03:22,520
Speaker 5: Experiments where they try and create superposition states in quantum devices,

1340
01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:28,400
Speaker 5: because these are important for building quantum computers. Right, those

1341
01:03:28,440 --> 01:03:31,240
Speaker 5: are the same pieces of science that that character.

1342
01:03:30,920 --> 01:03:35,080
Speaker 2: Would be doing, but real large in order to make

1343
01:03:35,120 --> 01:03:37,480
Speaker 2: this box. So you know, I had notes of my

1344
01:03:37,560 --> 01:03:39,720
Speaker 2: own that borrow some of their notes with their permission,

1345
01:03:39,880 --> 01:03:41,840
Speaker 2: and that's all you see in Jason's in that book.

1346
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:45,240
Speaker 2: So that those are examples of the things that that

1347
01:03:45,280 --> 01:03:49,240
Speaker 2: we worked on at the level of the show. Other

1348
01:03:49,280 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 2: though of the book, we'd already been thinking about trying

1349
01:03:52,640 --> 01:03:56,680
Speaker 2: to give a reality quote unquote to what would be

1350
01:03:56,760 --> 01:04:01,440
Speaker 2: like when you're inside the box when in because now

1351
01:04:01,560 --> 01:04:07,720
Speaker 2: this is no fantasy Blake's wonderful idea of having some

1352
01:04:07,760 --> 01:04:13,720
Speaker 2: sort of drug that turns off the observer effect, whatever

1353
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:19,080
Speaker 2: that means. That's based on actual experiments that people are

1354
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:23,160
Speaker 2: thinking about right or have been doing, trying to understand

1355
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:29,200
Speaker 2: the role of quantum mechanics in the workings of the brain.

1356
01:04:30,080 --> 01:04:34,560
Speaker 2: Quantum mechanics in perception of what we how do we

1357
01:04:34,600 --> 01:04:40,600
Speaker 2: construct reality of the physical world, in terms of interacting

1358
01:04:40,720 --> 01:04:43,520
Speaker 2: quantum mechanically with the world, to what extent there's our

1359
01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:46,600
Speaker 2: brain chemistry have anything to do with that, I think

1360
01:04:46,400 --> 01:04:49,439
Speaker 2: the answer to the questions is nobody knows the fact

1361
01:04:49,440 --> 01:04:52,080
Speaker 2: that it's unknown. It's fun to play.

1362
01:04:51,840 --> 01:04:57,640
Speaker 1: With and it gives the writer a loss of place down. Well, congratulations,

1363
01:04:57,680 --> 01:04:59,640
Speaker 1: and so you've seen the show, and you please without

1364
01:04:59,680 --> 01:04:59,960
Speaker 1: king that.

1365
01:05:00,480 --> 01:05:04,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, i've been. So I'm most of the way through now.

1366
01:05:04,960 --> 01:05:07,560
Speaker 2: I think there's maybe a couple of episodes I haven't

1367
01:05:07,600 --> 01:05:11,280
Speaker 2: seen and i've been, although you know i've you know,

1368
01:05:11,320 --> 01:05:13,280
Speaker 2: I read every script and worked at any script and

1369
01:05:13,320 --> 01:05:16,080
Speaker 2: worked at all the different departments. It was especially long

1370
01:05:16,120 --> 01:05:19,360
Speaker 2: ago that and of course I hadn't seen how it really.

1371
01:05:21,080 --> 01:05:24,120
Speaker 2: It's been great to see how these how it's come

1372
01:05:24,160 --> 01:05:26,920
Speaker 2: out overall as a show tonally, which I think is

1373
01:05:27,640 --> 01:05:29,920
Speaker 2: primarily the most important thing to get right in the

1374
01:05:29,960 --> 01:05:33,919
Speaker 2: total of the show. I think it really they really

1375
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:37,840
Speaker 2: nailed it, and such a strong cast, a great direction.

1376
01:05:38,440 --> 01:05:42,280
Speaker 2: It's a great collection of directors. They got someone whom

1377
01:05:42,320 --> 01:05:47,000
Speaker 2: I had spoken with early on and we were talking

1378
01:05:47,000 --> 01:05:49,920
Speaker 2: about various aspects of the show. So I'm very pleased.

1379
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:50,760
Speaker 2: I'm very impressed.

1380
01:05:51,480 --> 01:05:51,760
Speaker 1: For me.

1381
01:05:52,240 --> 01:05:54,280
Speaker 2: It's a win win from the point of view of

1382
01:05:54,320 --> 01:05:58,160
Speaker 2: a science advisor who's interested in getting people engaged science,

1383
01:05:58,640 --> 01:06:02,520
Speaker 2: because there's this feeling off from episode one two. Right,

1384
01:06:03,600 --> 01:06:06,160
Speaker 2: there are millions of people watching this thing. And after

1385
01:06:06,200 --> 01:06:09,040
Speaker 2: they turn off this episode, they're talking about strolling that,

1386
01:06:09,800 --> 01:06:14,640
Speaker 2: They're talking about Heisenberg and talking about uncertainty, they're talking

1387
01:06:14,680 --> 01:06:17,160
Speaker 2: about all these these things that I've usually thought of.

1388
01:06:17,360 --> 01:06:20,400
Speaker 2: Is about as obscure as you can get in science.

1389
01:06:20,880 --> 01:06:24,160
Speaker 2: This is out there in the TV show about prime time.

1390
01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:27,920
Speaker 2: That's fantastic. So I've been I've been very happy with that.

1391
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:32,600
Speaker 2: And you know this, I think wouldn't have happened without

1392
01:06:32,960 --> 01:06:37,680
Speaker 2: writers like Blake who get excited about science and then

1393
01:06:37,720 --> 01:06:41,520
Speaker 2: do this great job writing great stories builds around the science,

1394
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:42,640
Speaker 2: which is really what it's about.

1395
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:46,080
Speaker 1: Well, fantastic work, and I agree it's important to have

1396
01:06:46,120 --> 01:06:48,640
Speaker 1: science out there, and science any stories, and science can

1397
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:52,040
Speaker 1: really enable so many fascinating stories. And if your goal

1398
01:06:52,240 --> 01:06:54,560
Speaker 1: was to contribute to the story and to open the

1399
01:06:54,600 --> 01:06:57,040
Speaker 1: space that they could explore and give it some plausible

1400
01:06:57,120 --> 01:07:00,000
Speaker 1: credibility without feeling like a red pin pissing them up,

1401
01:07:00,360 --> 01:07:02,960
Speaker 1: I think you've done that. I just spoke to Jacqueline

1402
01:07:02,960 --> 01:07:07,000
Speaker 1: ben Zechery right, actually quote tell Clifford, I love him.

1403
01:07:08,080 --> 01:07:09,280
Speaker 1: I think it well for.

1404
01:07:11,640 --> 01:07:14,080
Speaker 2: It was, it was one of the most fun and

1405
01:07:14,160 --> 01:07:18,960
Speaker 2: fulfilling science advising collaborative experiences I've ever had. And you know,

1406
01:07:19,040 --> 01:07:21,120
Speaker 2: I've done some good ones. I've done some really good

1407
01:07:21,160 --> 01:07:23,560
Speaker 2: ones also with some of the some of the Marvel

1408
01:07:23,560 --> 01:07:27,360
Speaker 2: people has a great one coming up which I've been

1409
01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:32,120
Speaker 2: having all fun with. And I'm hoping that you know,

1410
01:07:32,240 --> 01:07:34,680
Speaker 2: this is a new standard. Yeah, that we can that

1411
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:39,400
Speaker 2: we that we can convince the filmmakers the entertainment industry

1412
01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:43,360
Speaker 2: to aspire to you where you really collaborate with scientists

1413
01:07:43,680 --> 01:07:46,840
Speaker 2: to find new ways to at the very least right

1414
01:07:47,240 --> 01:07:49,840
Speaker 2: from the point of view of just selling stories. Yeah,

1415
01:07:50,000 --> 01:07:52,480
Speaker 2: it's it's a great way to just find new ways

1416
01:07:52,520 --> 01:07:54,480
Speaker 2: of telling the same old stories, which is great. We

1417
01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:56,520
Speaker 2: only tell a few stories as a species, we just

1418
01:07:56,600 --> 01:07:58,760
Speaker 2: tell them in all these Science is a great way

1419
01:07:58,800 --> 01:08:01,800
Speaker 2: to find new ways and so so this is a

1420
01:08:01,840 --> 01:08:03,920
Speaker 2: great example of that.

1421
01:08:04,080 --> 01:08:05,880
Speaker 1: All right, Well, thanks again for taking a few minutes

1422
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:07,520
Speaker 1: to jab. That's really appreciate it my session.

1423
01:08:08,520 --> 01:08:10,880
Speaker 3: All right, pretty cool, Daniel. Have you ever considered being

1424
01:08:10,920 --> 01:08:13,560
Speaker 3: a scientific advisor for a TV show or something like that?

1425
01:08:13,920 --> 01:08:14,960
Speaker 3: Has anyone approached you?

1426
01:08:15,440 --> 01:08:17,439
Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, absolutely, I would love to be a science

1427
01:08:17,439 --> 01:08:20,639
Speaker 1: advisor on anybody's project, and people actually email me their

1428
01:08:20,720 --> 01:08:23,600
Speaker 1: stories all the time, asking me for advice, and I

1429
01:08:23,920 --> 01:08:25,920
Speaker 1: give it to them. I just talked last week to

1430
01:08:25,960 --> 01:08:29,120
Speaker 1: a team doing a science fiction horror show asking me

1431
01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:31,799
Speaker 1: for plausible explanations for the story they wanted.

1432
01:08:32,040 --> 01:08:36,519
Speaker 3: Ooh interesting. Can you give any spoilers or did you

1433
01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:37,880
Speaker 3: have to sign an NDA?

1434
01:08:38,240 --> 01:08:40,439
Speaker 1: I didn't sign an NDA, but I think they would

1435
01:08:40,439 --> 01:08:42,719
Speaker 1: not like me to give away their story on the pod.

1436
01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:44,720
Speaker 1: But if they do get to produce it, and we'll

1437
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:47,080
Speaker 1: definitely talk about it on the podcast, that would be fun.

1438
01:08:47,560 --> 01:08:49,920
Speaker 1: And so I want to encourage all science fiction writers

1439
01:08:49,920 --> 01:08:52,360
Speaker 1: out there thinks deeply about how the universe might work,

1440
01:08:52,520 --> 01:08:55,720
Speaker 1: create new universes for us, and think about what it's

1441
01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:56,759
Speaker 1: like to live in them.

1442
01:08:56,880 --> 01:08:59,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, because it's an amazing universe. And who knows how

1443
01:08:59,320 --> 01:09:03,280
Speaker 3: it will end up or get written up in Wikipedia.

1444
01:09:02,840 --> 01:09:04,559
Speaker 1: Or he might not stick around to hear the end

1445
01:09:04,600 --> 01:09:06,800
Speaker 1: of the universe. He's just going to read it on Wikipedia.

1446
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:08,000
Speaker 1: But I'll be there with you.

1447
01:09:08,720 --> 01:09:11,559
Speaker 3: I'll read it after the universe ends, so we'll save

1448
01:09:11,600 --> 01:09:14,120
Speaker 3: me a few trillion years hopefully. All Right, Well, we

1449
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:17,240
Speaker 3: hope you enjoyed that. Thanks for joining us. See you

1450
01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:17,799
Speaker 3: next time.

1451
01:09:22,880 --> 01:09:26,080
Speaker 1: For more science and curiosity, come find us on social media,

1452
01:09:26,200 --> 01:09:29,719
Speaker 1: where we answer questions and post videos. We're on Twitter,

1453
01:09:29,840 --> 01:09:33,400
Speaker 1: disc Org, Insta, and now TikTok. Thanks for listening, and

1454
01:09:33,439 --> 01:09:36,160
Speaker 1: remember that Daniel and Jorge Explain the Universe is a

1455
01:09:36,200 --> 01:09:40,760
Speaker 1: production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the

1456
01:09:40,840 --> 01:09:45,040
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your

1457
01:09:45,040 --> 01:09:45,839
Speaker 1: favorite shows.