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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff you should know a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, well I should say Merry Christmas and welcome to

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Speaker 2: the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's Chuck and Cherry's here too,

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Speaker 2: and we bid you good tidings. You're decking your halls

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Speaker 2: and giving you lots of joy on this festive day.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, we're decking your halls if you give us content,

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Speaker 1: of course to do so. Sure we would never deck halls.

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Speaker 1: Just willy nilly, No, I mean, oh, we're good guys.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Wow, this got odd very quickly.

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Speaker 1: This is our annual sort of toy episode, and we've

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Speaker 1: covered some specific dolls in the past, notably Cabbage Patch Kids,

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Speaker 1: and you had the brainstorm like what about just dolls?

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Speaker 1: What the heck is up with those weird little things.

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Speaker 2: I sat up in the middle of the night one

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Speaker 2: night and went dolls, right, and he.

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Speaker 1: Was like, that's what happened, and she was holding a

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Speaker 1: chatty Cathy.

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Speaker 2: That's right. Oh, I can't wait to get to that part.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. Yeah, we're talking about dolls themselves, and

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Speaker 2: it is a pretty broad category. But actually it's a

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Speaker 2: little more specific than I realized. Chuck and One of

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Speaker 2: the things that right off the bat that I had

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Speaker 2: no idea about is that there's almost no specific definition

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Speaker 2: of dolls. No one can can make an actual set definition.

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Speaker 2: The reason why is because you're like, well what about this?

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Speaker 2: Well what about that? Anytime you try to alter the

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Speaker 2: definition to please everybody, it's the best example of how

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Speaker 2: you can please some people some of the time, but

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Speaker 2: not everybody ever.

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Speaker 1: That old saying, yeah, that old saying. The definition that

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Speaker 1: we agreed on was a doll is a toy, and

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Speaker 1: we all know what a doll looks like. It's like

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Speaker 1: a model of usually a human type figure.

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Speaker 2: I saw that it has to be human to be

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Speaker 2: considered a doll.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes it's a baby, sometimes it's a grown up. It's

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Speaker 1: not an action figure. We kind of covered that difference

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Speaker 1: in our Gi Joe episode. But what a dolls specifically

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Speaker 1: is beyond just looking like a human is it aids

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Speaker 1: in kids development. There have been plenty and plenty of

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Speaker 1: studies over the years that have reinforced the fact that

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Speaker 1: dolls teach kids a lot of things, a lot of

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Speaker 1: great things, empathy and patience and recognizing emotions, among many

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Speaker 1: other things.

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Speaker 2: Yes, so just real quick that excludes. That definition excludes

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Speaker 2: things like puppets like you said, action figure statuettes, but

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Speaker 2: it also, I think, very weirdly excludes animal dolls like

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Speaker 2: stuffed animals. Okay, okay. And then one other thing I

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Speaker 2: would add to the definition is that they have to

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Speaker 2: be in some way, shape or form huggable.

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Speaker 1: Okay. It So, recognizing emotions is a big one for kids,

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Speaker 1: as long as holding onto dolls like reckon, because a

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Speaker 1: lot of times the kid will be like the surrogate

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Speaker 1: for what the kid might be feeling. You know, Chatty

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Speaker 1: Kathy is feeling bored or angry, and that means the

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Speaker 1: kid's not comfortable saying that to the parents, so they

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Speaker 1: talk through the doll, but not in a creepy way.

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Speaker 2: Is Chatty Kathy your go to doll?

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Speaker 1: M so far, I'll move on to Betsy Wetsy soon enough.

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Speaker 2: Chatty Kathy is pretty fun to say.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Another thing this is also I think a playroom Collective

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Speaker 2: laid out some good examples and these are some of

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Speaker 2: the ones that they said. Another one is practicing caregiving,

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Speaker 2: where it can be anything from changing the doll's diapers

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Speaker 2: to comforting the doll when it's sad or scared, and

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Speaker 2: that teaches emotional availability, teaches problem solving, and then it

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Speaker 2: also requires perspective taking, because just because the doll is

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Speaker 2: scared or sad doesn't mean the kid feels it way

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Speaker 2: right right then, so that means that the kid is

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Speaker 2: learning how to put themselves in other people's shoes and

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Speaker 2: understand how other people can feel differently than how you

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Speaker 2: can at the time, and it helps with empathy.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they can put themselves in their tiny, little one

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Speaker 1: inch shiny pat and leather shoe. That's right, that chatty

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Speaker 1: Kathy has right. If you you know, want to talk

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Speaker 1: about traditional gender roles, we're going to talk a lot

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Speaker 1: about that. Because dolls have long been associated with girlhood.

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Speaker 1: That wasn't always the case. It started by like the

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Speaker 1: nineteen forties. By the turn of the century, toys were

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Speaker 1: kind of marketed, you know, to boys and girls equally.

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Speaker 1: But in the nineteen forties they were like, hey, we

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Speaker 1: could probably sell a lot more stuff if we really

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Speaker 1: market one thing to girls and one thing to boys.

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Speaker 1: And then all of a sudden, we're buying twice as

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Speaker 1: much stuff.

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Speaker 2: In that nuts. That's that's apparently where gender toys came from.

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Speaker 2: Totally Around that same time, too, pink became the color

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Speaker 2: for girls and blue for boys. And it didn't come

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Speaker 2: from nowhere. We've talked about it before, but it used

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Speaker 2: to be the opposite where pink was for boys and

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Speaker 2: blue for girls because pink it was a red tone,

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Speaker 2: and red tones were considered too harsh for girls at

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Speaker 2: the time.

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Speaker 1: That's right. I never thought of pink being a red tone,

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Speaker 1: but it totally is.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, you can't deny it, Chuck.

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Speaker 1: There was a study in twenty seventeen that more than

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Speaker 1: this is interesting, more than three quarters of the people

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Speaker 1: that were surveyed said it was really good to encourage

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Speaker 1: girls to play with like boys, toys or do boy things,

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Speaker 1: and it went up to eighty percent for women and

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Speaker 1: millennials saying that, but when it came to boys only

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Speaker 1: sixty four percent. So there are far fewer families saying,

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Speaker 1: you know, William, you should play with your doll reference

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Speaker 1: to Free to Be You and Me, the great song

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Speaker 1: William Wants a Doll, And there are way way more

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Speaker 1: families telling their girls like, you should go play with

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Speaker 1: trucks or rough house.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, go jump off that dirt pile.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, that clearly means we have a long way

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Speaker 2: to go still, but there, you know, there are a

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Speaker 2: lot of dolls that have made headway in empowering girls,

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Speaker 2: showing that women can take like male of jobs and

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Speaker 2: male dominated feels like Barbie has a million different careers,

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Speaker 2: a lot of them like engineering and science and technology.

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Speaker 2: She's been to space, for God's sake, And I think

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Speaker 2: American girl dolls, there's one girl at least who has

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Speaker 2: a backstory where she has lesbian aunts who live in Australia.

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Speaker 2: Randomly enough, and then of course, Chuck, we couldn't possibly

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Speaker 2: talk about how Earring magic Kin was in a groundbreaking doll.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean Earring magic Ken came out nineteen ninety three.

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Speaker 1: You take one look at Earring magic Ken and it's

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Speaker 1: pretty clear that it's a queer coded doll. He has

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Speaker 1: his diamond stud earring in one ear. He's wearing a

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Speaker 1: purple mesh crop top. There was some controversy surrounding the

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Speaker 1: necklace he wore that I won't even get into because

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Speaker 1: this is a Christmas episode, but you can look it

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Speaker 1: up if you wants. Saw that too, and of course

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Speaker 1: Mittel was like, that's preposterous. This is a kid's story,

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Speaker 1: but it was very hot in the gay community, selling

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Speaker 1: out all over the place. Maybe the hottest selling well,

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Speaker 1: definitely the hottest selling kin doll of all time, maybe

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Speaker 1: the best selling of all time. Mattel won't say, but

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Speaker 1: it's sold for six months like any ordinary sort of

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Speaker 1: special release Barbie, and evidently sold like hotcakes.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and one other feature that was often overlooked. He

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Speaker 2: had a pull cord that made him talk, and the

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Speaker 2: only thing he said is the boys are out tonight.

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Speaker 2: So Chuck, I say we move on to the history

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Speaker 2: of dolls. You want to talk about that, or even

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Speaker 2: where the word doll came from.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is something I didn't know. It's a doll

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Speaker 1: was a nickname for Dorothy. I always thought dot was

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Speaker 1: the only nickname for Dorothy. But apparently dating back to

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Speaker 1: like at least the sixteenth century, that was a weird

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Speaker 1: thing happening when people would substitute l's for rs. So

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Speaker 1: Harold could be how Mary could be moll or Molly

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Speaker 1: and Dorothy could be doll.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. It was a bigger tren than slap bracelets is today.

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Speaker 1: Oh wow.

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Speaker 2: So the earliest use of the word doll goes back

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Speaker 2: to the fifteen hundreds, and it was a pet name

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Speaker 2: for a girlfriend or spouse. Right, You didn't just have

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Speaker 2: to be named Dorothy and that be your nickname.

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Speaker 1: It was extended, give me a doll, yeah, doll face for.

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Speaker 2: Ye exactly right. So you're like, it's a term of

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Speaker 2: endearment for a girlfriend or a spouse. A century later

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Speaker 2: it became an insult for a loose woman. So everybody

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Speaker 2: got dumped apparently. And then by around seventeen hundred it

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Speaker 2: was finally used to describe a child's toy, to say,

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Speaker 2: this is a doll, and people are like, well, wait

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Speaker 2: a minute, what about stuffed animals? What about marionettes?

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Speaker 1: Then someone said, you think a puppet is a doll?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? They said, had a psychle? Are you?

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Speaker 1: So many people think that they're going to have to

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Speaker 1: explain that on a one day.

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Speaker 2: They're like, you think a hot dog is a sandwich?

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Speaker 1: Why is that doll got strings coming out of it? Well?

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Speaker 1: Speaking of strings, yeah, there's some strings in these dolls.

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Speaker 1: Ancient dolls Egyptian paddle dolls that date back to the

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Speaker 1: Middle Kingdom like two thousand to eighteen hundred BCE. They

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Speaker 1: were a flat piece of wood, so they weren't, you know,

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Speaker 1: human shaped as far as three dimension three dimensionality goes,

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Speaker 1: but they were cut like a woman's torso, and they

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Speaker 1: had tattoo like designs and hair made out of bead strings.

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Speaker 1: But archaeologists are like, this isn't really a doll doll.

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Speaker 1: I think it was more like a percussion instrument for

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Speaker 1: like religious rituals. You could shake that thing.

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Speaker 2: They do think in the ancient world that dolls played

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Speaker 2: dual roles. One was for rituals like you were just describing,

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Speaker 2: and then also that they were for play in the

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Speaker 2: same way that dolls can develop children today. They were

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Speaker 2: used to kind of indoctrinate kids into culture and society.

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Speaker 2: And they're basing that in part on how there's still

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Speaker 2: dolls like that around today, like the a Kua Ba

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Speaker 2: of the Fonte and Acan people of Ghana. They have

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Speaker 2: ritual dolls that kids also play with at the same time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, the dolls in ancient Rome were definitely sort

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Speaker 1: of the early barbies because they were not baby dolls.

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Speaker 1: They were dolls that looked like grown up Roman women,

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Speaker 1: and the girls who played with them were like it

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Speaker 1: was just like having a barbie. It was like here

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Speaker 1: is what we think. The idealized image of a Roman

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Speaker 1: woman is a wife and a mother, and here go

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Speaker 1: play with this thing and try and look like that

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Speaker 1: one day.

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Speaker 2: So even before the Romans, they found dolls in Greek burials,

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Speaker 2: and the reason why they found them is because girls

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Speaker 2: would play with dolls. When they got married, they would consecrate,

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Speaker 2: they would sacrifice essentially the dolls to Artemis in exchange

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Speaker 2: for fertility in their marriage, and then if they never

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Speaker 2: got married, they were buried with their dolls. Isn't that bittersweet?

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Speaker 1: Mmm? Kind of just bitter? Okay, I'm looking for the sweet.

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Speaker 1: I guess you're buried with your toy that you loved.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a sweet part, for sure. It's like the

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Speaker 2: newgat of that situation.

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Speaker 1: All right, I'll take it. All right. We promised talk

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Speaker 1: of Aerosmith, and they're a great, great, great song rag Doll.

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Speaker 1: I thought the same thing too, coming up and see me.

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Speaker 2: That's a new version of an old singing.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I guess that song's okay. That was late Aerosmith.

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Speaker 1: They put out a bunch of songs like that for

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Speaker 1: a while.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I can't imagine how bad the subtext.

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Speaker 1: Is though, Oh, sure. I never really thought about that,

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Speaker 1: but you're right, I think yeah, I don't know if

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Speaker 1: there is an Aerosmith song where there wasn't a sexual subtext,

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Speaker 1: you know, I don't.

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Speaker 2: Think so either they were really into sex.

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Speaker 1: Oh no, that loving an elevator song that was just

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Speaker 1: anging about elevators going up and down.

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Speaker 2: That's right, sponsored by the Otis Corporation.

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Speaker 1: That's right. Oh man, I'm glad you could call that up.

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Speaker 1: Rag dolls not Aerosmith, but you know, the little floppy

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Speaker 1: dolls made out of fabric and not you know, hard

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Speaker 1: dolls that you can bang against the wall. They have

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Speaker 1: been around for a long long time, since the ancient world.

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Speaker 1: But because they were made out of things like you know,

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Speaker 1: cloth and linen and cotton and things like that, they

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Speaker 1: would disappear before our very eyes over thousands of years.

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Speaker 1: So there's not a ton of examples of those, but

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Speaker 1: there are some, right, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: But it also raises the question like how long have

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Speaker 2: humans been playing with dolls? We have no idea for

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Speaker 2: that very reason, because almost certainly dolls would have been

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Speaker 2: made out of perishable materials very early on. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: the oldest we found is two thousand years old. Chuck.

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Speaker 2: It was found in a trash pile in Egypt, and

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Speaker 2: it was linen stuff with some papyrus. I had some

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Speaker 2: paint on it at one point, but now all that's left.

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Speaker 2: There's a single bead that was once attached to its hair.

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Speaker 2: So but it's two thousand years old, so give it

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Speaker 2: a break, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, Yeah, sure of course.

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Speaker 2: Well what about in North America, there's a doll that

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Speaker 2: says I'm the oldest, and everyone says, yes, you are.

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Speaker 1: Yes, that's right. There is a rag doll, the oldest

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Speaker 1: rag doll in North America. It belonged to a little

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Speaker 1: girl who was blind named clarissas Field from Massachusetts. And

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Speaker 1: the girl, the actual girl, was born in seventeen sixty five.

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Speaker 1: And I think this is a great deep cut band name.

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Speaker 1: She named her doll Bangwell Putt.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it is a great band name for sure.

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Speaker 1: Because no one will know what it is except for

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Speaker 1: the rare stuff. You should know a listener and then

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Speaker 1: be like, bruh, you named your band Bangwell Butt after

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Speaker 1: the oldest rag doll.

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Speaker 2: Or Visitors to the Pacomattock Valley Memorial Association in Deerfield,

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Speaker 2: mass which is where it's kept now.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I guess they would know that, but they're the

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Speaker 1: I guess you could call it creepy looking. I didn't

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Speaker 1: find it that creepy. But this dog, this dog, this

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Speaker 1: doll has no facial features. There's just a blank face.

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Speaker 1: But there are ten individually sewn fingers and thumbs, which

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Speaker 1: might be a reason that young Clarissa, like I mentioned,

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Speaker 1: she was blind and it might have sort of indicated

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Speaker 1: the importance of touch for her.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I saw that the no face rag doll may

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Speaker 2: have actually evolved out of the tradition from corn husk dolls,

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Speaker 2: which didn't have faces, because some of the northeastern North

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Speaker 2: America tribes had legends about why the corn goddess removed

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Speaker 2: the face of the corn husk doll because she was

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Speaker 2: getting too vain. So that's why cornhust dolls don't have

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Speaker 2: a face, and that's possibly why rag doll dolls don't

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Speaker 2: have a face either, Like bangwill putt.

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Speaker 1: Like Bangwell put would to be clear, no facial features.

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Speaker 1: There's a face, but there's no eyes, nose, or mouth

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Speaker 1: or you know, eyebrows, all the things that make a face.

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Speaker 1: What about eyelashes, No eyelashes, no pimples, no freckles, pores,

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Speaker 1: no frinkles, no wrinkles, no pores. What else is on

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Speaker 1: the face. I'm looking at my face.

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Speaker 2: Um nose, hair, beard.

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Speaker 1: Nose, hair, mustache. All right, I think we covered it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, I know for a fact we left something like

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Speaker 2: the mouth out, something super glaring.

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Speaker 1: Oh, I said mouth, and inside the mouth everything counts

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Speaker 1: his mouth. So don't come at me with teeth and

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Speaker 1: tongue exactly.

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Speaker 2: I'm glad you said that chuck.

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Speaker 1: That should be on the shirt. Don't come at me

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Speaker 1: with teeth and tongue. It's the stuff you should know. Whey, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what about Victorian dolls.

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Speaker 2: Well, this is where really where doll obsessions I think

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Speaker 2: kind of starting to take off, because up to this

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Speaker 2: point rag dolls, like you got to be a pretty

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Speaker 2: niche collector to be collecting like eighteenth century rag dolls.

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Speaker 2: Victorian dolls is where people are like, give me all

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Speaker 2: of these. And one of the reasons why is because

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Speaker 2: doll making became a real art by the fifteenth century,

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Speaker 2: and the seat of it originally was Germany. They had

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Speaker 2: doc and mockers, which are doll makers, and they were

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Speaker 2: for aristocratic families who were the only ones that could

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Speaker 2: afford these things because they were works of art.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, works of art that very key Lee looked like them.

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Speaker 1: They really showed their sort of obsession with their own

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Speaker 1: selves and their own class. They were made from porcelain,

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Speaker 1: and not because that was just some superior material. They

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Speaker 1: were literally made from porcelain because they thought that represented

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Speaker 1: the ideal skin tone, that porcelain white. They were dressed

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Speaker 1: very fashionably obviously, they had human hair wigs, apparently from

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Speaker 1: the hair of working class girls. And they were true

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Speaker 1: status symbols.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like you would be painted with them a portrait.

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Speaker 2: That's pretty big status symbol at.

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Speaker 1: The time, right, Yeah, for sure.

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Speaker 2: So one of my favorite things Dave helped us with this.

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Speaker 2: Think big head tip to Dave and Merry Christmas Day.

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Speaker 2: And apparently around the time of Prince Albert's death he

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Speaker 2: was trapped in a can. He died in eighteen sixty one.

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Speaker 2: It's Queen Victoria's husband. By the way, like funerals in

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Speaker 2: mourning like became all the rage we often associate like

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Speaker 2: mourning and death stuff and memento mariy with Victorians and

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Speaker 2: this is why, and so dolls were not immune to

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Speaker 2: this trend. And little girls were given death kits to

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Speaker 2: use with their dolls.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so like here's your doll, and here's your little

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Speaker 1: baby coffin and your little outfit that you should wear,

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Speaker 1: and they would you know, when you play doll, you

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Speaker 1: play all kinds of facets of life. And that's one

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Speaker 1: of the things about dolls that you'll see over and

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Speaker 1: over is you know, whether you're pretending to be a

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Speaker 1: you know, cooking dinner in your home, or you're doing

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Speaker 1: other household things, or you're you know, now your mourning

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Speaker 1: because somebody has died, so you're sort of acting out

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Speaker 1: and these things that you would do later as adults,

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Speaker 1: which again is another sort of important facet of dolls.

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Speaker 2: But today it's like, if your kid is acting out

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Speaker 2: a funeral with their doll, it would be eye catching,

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Speaker 2: attention grabbing, I think.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you might sign them up for therapy

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Speaker 1: or something, when in fact I think it's a pretty

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Speaker 1: normal thing.

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Speaker 2: I think it is too, but it would definitely make

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Speaker 2: you stop and say, like, hey, what you doing with

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Speaker 2: your doll right now? Yeah, for sure, Like you wouldn't

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Speaker 2: just pass the room and see it and just walk

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Speaker 2: off shaking your head and laughing and be like my kid.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you do the darnest things.

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Speaker 2: I want to hear though, if anybody has a kid

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Speaker 2: and they've ever found their kid performing a funeral for

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Speaker 2: their doll, I want to hear about it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that'd be a good listener mail.

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Speaker 2: So, dollhouses also really kind of came around at this

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Speaker 2: time too, like the dollhouse, as we think about it, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and that was thanks to the Victorians. And that's why

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Speaker 2: dollhouses are always very nice and big, because they were

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Speaker 2: basically what the Victorian aristocracy thought that houses should look

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Speaker 2: like at the time. And again, remember you said that

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Speaker 2: Victorian girls were being trained to how to behave in

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Speaker 2: society through their dolls. Same thing with the dollhouse too.

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Speaker 2: It's like, here's the scullery, here's the bathroom with indoor plumbing,

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Speaker 2: Like these are all the things you need to demand

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Speaker 2: and expect when you grow up and get married.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, ring this bell if you're hungry.

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Speaker 2: Hey.

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Speaker 1: So, you know, we talked a little bit about the

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Speaker 1: complicated history of race and facial features when it comes

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Speaker 1: to race and skin tone and stuff like that with dolls,

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Speaker 1: and so we have a whole kind of robust section

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Speaker 1: here on the history of black dolls, because it's a

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Speaker 1: pretty complex story. Yeah, as far as race and self

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Speaker 1: image goes. And the first one we're going to talk

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Speaker 1: about it is called the topsy Turvy doll. It's a

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Speaker 1: really good example because it was a doll that had

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Speaker 1: two heads. It had a long skirt to conceal sort

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00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:02,520
Speaker 1: of one side. One head was white, one head was black.

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Speaker 1: And you know, depending on which way you held the doll,

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Speaker 1: you were playing with a white doll or a black doll.

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00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,159
Speaker 1: And people, you know, there isn't text that says exactly

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00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,359
Speaker 1: why this thing was invented, but everyone pretty much agrees,

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Speaker 1: like scholars that have studied this thing, is that it

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Speaker 1: originated in the Antebellum South. They were made by enslaved

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Speaker 1: black women as dolls for their daughters, and the idea is, hey,

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Speaker 1: we have to take care of the white kids during

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Speaker 1: the day, and then we have to take care of

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Speaker 1: our own children at night. And if dolls are to

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Speaker 1: represent what you are to be doing when you grow

390
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Speaker 1: up or maybe you know later on in your life,

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Speaker 1: then you need a two headed doll to care for

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Speaker 1: the white doll in the day and the black doll

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Speaker 1: at night.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not the worst of how the whole thing started.

395
00:20:51,359 --> 00:20:55,040
Speaker 2: The Jim Crow South, the Jim Crow era saw the

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Speaker 2: rise of a lot of very racist dolls that were

397
00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:02,160
Speaker 2: available you could buy from catalogs like Montgomery Ward, which

398
00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:06,240
Speaker 2: is not surprising. But the thing to understand about that

399
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:13,800
Speaker 2: is that this helped lay the groundwork for reinforcing social

400
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:19,359
Speaker 2: norms about the inferiority of black people in America and

401
00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 2: the superiority of white people in America. And it wasn't like, hey, kid,

402
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:27,439
Speaker 2: don't forget black people are inferior, White people superior. It

403
00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,920
Speaker 2: was much more subtle and much more pervasive than that

404
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 2: through dolls. Like the black dolls were not particularly cute,

405
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:40,560
Speaker 2: they were sometimes ugly. They certainly weren't accurate representations of

406
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,159
Speaker 2: black people or black kids. White dolls were. They were

407
00:21:44,280 --> 00:21:46,720
Speaker 2: very pretty. There are collector's items. They were gorgeous. In

408
00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,560
Speaker 2: a lot of cases. They were the doll that you wanted,

409
00:21:49,800 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 2: and that sent the signal to black kids being raised

410
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,480
Speaker 2: in America at the time, like, if you're black, you

411
00:21:55,480 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 2: should feel pretty much about yourself how you feel about

412
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:00,479
Speaker 2: this doll, and you should feel about white people how

413
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:01,400
Speaker 2: you feel about this doll.

414
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Speaker 1: Very pretty huh Yeah, exactly. I mean, it makes it

415
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 1: all the more nefarious, I think, because these are children,

416
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:10,399
Speaker 1: Like the more sublid it is, the more nefarious it is.

417
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:13,960
Speaker 1: And this culminated in the nineteen forties with what was

418
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 1: called the Doll Tests from Maimy and Kenneth Clark. It

419
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:21,440
Speaker 1: was pretty groundbreaking experiments where they traveled all over America

420
00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:25,359
Speaker 1: and they would give little black kids two dolls that

421
00:22:25,400 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 1: were identical to one another except for the skin tone,

422
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:30,479
Speaker 1: and then they would ask him a lot of questions

423
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:32,320
Speaker 1: like give me the doll that's a nice doll, give

424
00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:33,960
Speaker 1: me the doll that you think is a nice color.

425
00:22:34,480 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 1: And overwhelmingly the positive traits from these little black kids

426
00:22:38,600 --> 00:22:41,359
Speaker 1: were assigned to white dolls, and the negative traits were

427
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:45,720
Speaker 1: assigned to black dolls. And the saddest part about all

428
00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:48,160
Speaker 1: this is when they ask kids, give me the doll

429
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,399
Speaker 1: that looks like you, A lot of these little kids

430
00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,919
Speaker 1: would were ashamed to admit that they look like the

431
00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:57,800
Speaker 1: black doll, and they would like start crying and run

432
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Speaker 1: from the room because they couldn't even admit it. So

433
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:01,880
Speaker 1: this was brutal.

434
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:05,640
Speaker 2: It is brutal, But it also was this groundbreaking research

435
00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:07,880
Speaker 2: that the Clarks created.

436
00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:08,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.

437
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:13,680
Speaker 2: And it was so groundbreaking and so convincing that the

438
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 2: NAACP came to them and said, hey, can we use

439
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,560
Speaker 2: this in these cases. They had five cases going on

440
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:23,399
Speaker 2: that eventually got attached into the Brown versus Board of

441
00:23:23,520 --> 00:23:26,920
Speaker 2: Education case that the Supreme Court eventually heard that was

442
00:23:26,960 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 2: successful with the Nino decision to overturn segregation in public schools.

443
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,280
Speaker 2: That's how convincing these doll tests were that they were

444
00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 2: cited in some of these cases. And Kenneth Clark testified

445
00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:42,560
Speaker 2: at some of the cases as well and wrote up

446
00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,960
Speaker 2: the social science testimony that the Supreme Court considered in

447
00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:46,440
Speaker 2: the case.

448
00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:51,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty amazing result from that study. Sarah Lee Creech

449
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:54,600
Speaker 1: was a doll maker. I guess who created the Sarah

450
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 1: Lee doll in nineteen fifty one, and that was the

451
00:23:57,359 --> 00:23:59,959
Speaker 1: very first realistic black baby doll produced in the US.

452
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 1: But not to be outdone during the Black Power movement,

453
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:08,639
Speaker 1: Baby Nancy came along and that was kind of in

454
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 1: the middle of the sixty five Watts riots. It was

455
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 1: a black owned company called Shindana Toys and it was

456
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:20,359
Speaker 1: the very first doll with realistic afrocentric features. It was

457
00:24:20,400 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 1: not like, hey, let's run a run of white dolls

458
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:26,359
Speaker 1: and then just change the skin tone and color them brown.

459
00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 1: This Baby Nancy was a little black baby doll, and

460
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 1: it was a really hot selling doll in La and beyond.

461
00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,200
Speaker 1: I think the production couldn't keep up that year because

462
00:24:38,200 --> 00:24:39,400
Speaker 1: they were such a hot sellers.

463
00:24:39,560 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a great success for sure. And the

464
00:24:41,800 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 2: Sarah Lee doll. Again, this was the first like semi

465
00:24:44,920 --> 00:24:48,200
Speaker 2: accurate doll, but there was still a lot of features

466
00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 2: that weren't quite what black children look like. The Baby

467
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 2: Nancy was like unmistakably had cute, tight little curls, and

468
00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 2: it was like, this is the first like legitimate African

469
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,040
Speaker 2: American doll anyone's ever made. Yea, I thought that was

470
00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 2: pretty cool.

471
00:25:04,920 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's amazing, very cute doll. Actually, So, I mean,

472
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 1: I'm not into dolls because you know, I played with trucks, okay,

473
00:25:13,680 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: but if I played with dolls, Baby Nancy might be

474
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 1: my doll.

475
00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:18,720
Speaker 2: I can't remember. Did you have a cabbage patch?

476
00:25:19,720 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: I did, sort of. We bought a bunch of them

477
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 1: when they were handmade by the original Xavier Robert.

478
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,360
Speaker 2: Sky creepy pantyhose dolls, right.

479
00:25:30,440 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 1: And they assigned a couple of them to me as mine.

480
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:36,880
Speaker 1: But they were never like in my room, and it's

481
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,400
Speaker 1: not like it's like, oh, don't put that in my room.

482
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:40,600
Speaker 1: I don't know why they did that. It was weird.

483
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,320
Speaker 1: They were like, here's Scott's two and your two and

484
00:25:42,320 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: here's Michelle's.

485
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:44,440
Speaker 2: And don't touch them.

486
00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 1: I know, I think they're worth a little bit of money. Oh,

487
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: I'm sure I do remember mine as a little boy

488
00:25:50,600 --> 00:25:53,200
Speaker 1: and a girl and it's their shirts and I guess

489
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: the doll whatever they were my little TV star or

490
00:25:56,240 --> 00:26:00,040
Speaker 1: something like that, so that I don't even know what

491
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 1: that means.

492
00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,239
Speaker 2: Let's say, hey, let's move along to paper dolls or

493
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,960
Speaker 2: do you want to take a break. Now, let's take.

494
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:09,240
Speaker 1: A break, and I'm going to look up and see

495
00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:13,080
Speaker 1: how much those Xabier Roberts dolls are worth of mine,

496
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 1: and I'll see if I can list them on eBay

497
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: and I'll be right back.

498
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:44,160
Speaker 2: Okay, we promised talk about paper dolls, and what kind

499
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 2: of grinch scrooges would we be if we just didn't

500
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 2: deliver on that.

501
00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 1: That's right?

502
00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 2: So yeah, paper dolls were this trend from like the

503
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,639
Speaker 2: Apex was from eighteen ninety to nineteen twenty. But I

504
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 2: mean you could find them pretty easily into the nineteen

505
00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:07,000
Speaker 2: seventies and they're still around today in different forms. But

506
00:27:07,920 --> 00:27:10,639
Speaker 2: they were like, think about this, what trend can you

507
00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,199
Speaker 2: think of? Chuck? That lasted for thirty years? This is

508
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:15,560
Speaker 2: a huge, huge trend.

509
00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 1: Grunge, No grunge.

510
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,440
Speaker 2: I will say it was ten years.

511
00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 1: Tops pet rocks.

512
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 2: Pet Rocks is maybe two.

513
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 1: That's it. I got nothing else.

514
00:27:31,359 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 2: Okay, that's what I'm saying. That's how massive a trend.

515
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:38,320
Speaker 2: Paper dolls were from the late nineteenth century to the

516
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 2: early twentieth hotpants, okay, daisy dukes. They've been huge since

517
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:45,920
Speaker 2: the seventies, definitely.

518
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,520
Speaker 1: So paper doll is a doll that you cut out.

519
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 1: And the fun thing about paper dolls was, and I

520
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 1: guess is if you're still into them, is they would

521
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:58,960
Speaker 1: come with different outfits and things, and you would cut

522
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 1: out the different outfits and put them over the doll.

523
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 1: And that was the fun of it is you could

524
00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,359
Speaker 1: change the clothes, but it wasn't real clothes because it

525
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:08,399
Speaker 1: was just sort of free because it came in the

526
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 1: magazine or newspaper or whatever.

527
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 2: But that was the only fun of it. Don't even

528
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,320
Speaker 2: try to have any other fun, just put the outfits

529
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:16,200
Speaker 2: on and sit there.

530
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:18,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's kind of it.

531
00:28:18,480 --> 00:28:20,399
Speaker 2: But luckily there was a bunch of new outfits and

532
00:28:20,400 --> 00:28:22,840
Speaker 2: they were always coming because this whole thing was basically

533
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,320
Speaker 2: a way to get people to go buy your newspaper

534
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 2: or your magazine. Yeah, in some cases buy your product,

535
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 2: like Pillsbury products. You would get a set of these

536
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 2: collectible paper dolls and new outfits, and for thirty years

537
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:41,800
Speaker 2: people would go buy Pillsbury everything because they had the

538
00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 2: best paper dolls.

539
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, this still continues. I just realized that. At one point,

540
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:51,000
Speaker 1: my friend Meredith, who worked in the fashion industry, got

541
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: Ruby for Christmas. A little it's like a little fashion kit,

542
00:28:54,560 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: and it's kind of like paper dolls, except they're already

543
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: it's magnetized and they're pre cut. But the whole is

544
00:29:00,360 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 1: that you can put together all these different outfits and

545
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 1: like kind of learn about fashion. So it's not that

546
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: different than paper dolls.

547
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:07,520
Speaker 2: No, this is plastic.

548
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and she sheap enjoyed that for a while.

549
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: Oh good, who was that they gave her that present?

550
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 1: My friend mereth or Anti Meredith. She and Ruby are

551
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:20,360
Speaker 1: big buds. Meredith, Yeah, I think you met Meredith. Maybe

552
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 1: all right, yeah, you have it at New York Live Shows.

553
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:28,520
Speaker 2: Okay, well, great pick Meredith. Yeah, So I say we

554
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,840
Speaker 2: move on to famous dolls of the twentieth century, Chuck,

555
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,880
Speaker 2: this is the part I've been waiting for. The well

556
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:36,760
Speaker 2: reason we did this episode.

557
00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:39,000
Speaker 1: You got to start, and we're not gonna spend too

558
00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 1: much time on QP Doll, except to mention that the

559
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 1: QP doll was kind of the first big doll of

560
00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:45,760
Speaker 1: the twentieth century in nineteen twelve.

561
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 2: Right, yeah, and the Great Mayo two by the way.

562
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I tried the QP Mayo because he you

563
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:54,680
Speaker 1: what'd you think? It was great? It's not going to

564
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: replace Dukes for me, but very good.

565
00:29:56,640 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 2: Mayo, it shouldn't. You can love both, Yeah, I do.

566
00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 2: I think Keupy was huge, so huge that it took

567
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 2: Mickey Mouse to topple them him her it.

568
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:13,959
Speaker 1: I think Mickey Mouse isn't it no, no, cupie, they're both its, okay,

569
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: so yeah, well Mickey Mouse isn't now a mouse. Yeah,

570
00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: but he's in it. He's living in that gutter with

571
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 1: a clown, okay, in the sewer gutter.

572
00:30:23,200 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 2: So along after that, I think KEP Doll was. I mean,

573
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 2: I know Steamboat Willie came out in the twenties. I'm

574
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,200
Speaker 2: not sure when it was actually Mickey Mouse. Mickey Mouse right,

575
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,640
Speaker 2: so kep Doll was on top for a while. But

576
00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 2: even if Mickey Mouse hadn't to come along, Raggedy Ann

577
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,280
Speaker 2: would have eventually come and pulled a little CuPy doll

578
00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 2: by her little couple of hairs on the top of

579
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 2: her head down from the top spot and take took

580
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:47,840
Speaker 2: it over.

581
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,920
Speaker 1: That's right. Raggedy Ann and her little brother Raggedy Andy

582
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 1: were big hits. I had Raggedy Ann and Andy when

583
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: I was little. It was a children's book from cartoonist

584
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 1: Johnny Gruel. He made it for his daughter. It's very

585
00:31:01,240 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 1: Sweet Dolls came out a couple of years later, in

586
00:31:03,840 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 1: nineteen twenty. But they had movie appearances, they had a

587
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: TV show, they had a Broadway musical in the eighties.

588
00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 2: What was it about.

589
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:16,840
Speaker 1: I don't really know. Raggedy Ann, I guess okay, it

590
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,760
Speaker 1: was called it was called it might have been called

591
00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 1: Raggedy Ann, rag Doll or something rag Doll. I didn't

592
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:23,560
Speaker 1: look too much into it. I don't think it ran

593
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:24,000
Speaker 1: too long.

594
00:31:24,240 --> 00:31:25,840
Speaker 2: Aerosmith did the score.

595
00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure they did the book too.

596
00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,440
Speaker 2: So one other thing about Raggedy ann You know Annabelle

597
00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:33,800
Speaker 2: from the Conjuring series.

598
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I never saw that, but I know what you're

599
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 1: talking about.

600
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 2: You never saw the Conjuring. Oh oh, you're gonna like it, dude.

601
00:31:42,840 --> 00:31:48,040
Speaker 2: It's one of those very few modern, like good ghost movies.

602
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:53,400
Speaker 2: It's all right, good, like like goose pimple stuff. Good.

603
00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: I'm going to conjure up some goose pimples for myself then,

604
00:31:56,880 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 1: I think.

605
00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 2: And the Conjuring too, was okay, but the first one's

606
00:31:59,520 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 2: very good. I would be very surprised if you don't

607
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 2: like it.

608
00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 1: They'll check it out. Most of my doll scary movies

609
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 1: have been Child's Play and Meghan.

610
00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:12,640
Speaker 2: Okay, Child's Place coming up, don't worry about it. Yeah, yeah, okay.

611
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 2: Megan was pretty good too.

612
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, Megan was fun. It wasn't so scary.

613
00:32:16,720 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 2: No, it's no conjuring for sure.

614
00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

615
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 2: So now we're coming to Betsy Wetzy. Just wait for

616
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:25,680
Speaker 2: your chatty, Kathy. Let's talk about Betsy Wetzy first.

617
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, Betsy Wetsy was well, let's just say this, Betsy

618
00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,600
Speaker 1: Wetsy could drink, bet you drink you under the table

619
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 1: could peepee herself. Betsy Wetsy could cry, so I'd say

620
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 1: real human tears, but no cry fake tears. Yeah. This

621
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 1: was from a company called Ideal in nineteen thirty seven.

622
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: An Ideal got sued a few times because they had

623
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 1: other dolls out there that could cry and that could

624
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: pee themselves and drink. But apparently Idea was like, but

625
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:58,479
Speaker 1: can they do all of that?

626
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:02,280
Speaker 2: Right? Yeah, Betsy West. It was a huge smash hit.

627
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 2: I think she was most popular in the fifties, but

628
00:33:06,560 --> 00:33:08,800
Speaker 2: you could find her on the shelves through the eighties

629
00:33:09,960 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 2: and you would give her a little bottle. She had

630
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 2: a tube running through her, so the bottle of whatever,

631
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,440
Speaker 2: hopefully water if you were a parent, and not actual milk,

632
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,640
Speaker 2: would go through her little tube and come out the

633
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 2: other end, and then you would get to change your

634
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 2: diaper or maybe give her a bath or something like that.

635
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 2: And what must start all over again?

636
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: That's right, not to be undone. In the early nineties,

637
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: Magic Potty Baby came out, and I think I remember

638
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 1: this actually because this was a It didn't peep here itself,

639
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: but there was a toilet that came with it, and

640
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 1: it was all about toilet training, of course, but the

641
00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 1: toilet would fill up with this you know, fake yellow liquor.

642
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:50,480
Speaker 1: It wouldn't fake. It was a real yellow liquid. I

643
00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,400
Speaker 1: guess fake urine. I hope it was fake urine. And

644
00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:57,320
Speaker 1: every tasted it, and the doll would sit on it

645
00:33:57,360 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 1: and then you would flesh it and it would disappear

646
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: back in too. That it's a temporary holding tank.

647
00:34:02,640 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're like, oh, that sounds kind of weird.

648
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:08,359
Speaker 2: Go watch the ad for Magic Potty Baby, and for

649
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,440
Speaker 2: some reason, it's just it's even more bizarre when you

650
00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,480
Speaker 2: see it in person. Yeah, I agreed, Okay, Chuck, I

651
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 2: think now it's time for Chatty Kathy, which I didn't

652
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,920
Speaker 2: realize was a follow up a year after Barbie came out.

653
00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,000
Speaker 2: And this was a Ruth Handler joint too.

654
00:34:25,960 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 1: That's right. This was a Mattel product along with Barbie.

655
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:33,240
Speaker 1: And you know Chatty Kathy. It was chatty and talked

656
00:34:33,400 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: so you would pull a string and there were I

657
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:40,799
Speaker 1: think eleven initial phrases, I hurt myself, please brush my hair.

658
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 2: That was a great Chatty Kathy.

659
00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:44,800
Speaker 1: That was it. That was Chatty Kathy.

660
00:34:46,680 --> 00:34:50,360
Speaker 2: Chatty Kathy. Get This was not the first doll to

661
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,879
Speaker 2: talk as far back as Thomas Edison and I think

662
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 2: eighteen ninety he tried his hand at one and he

663
00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 2: had different dolls that said a few different things. But

664
00:35:03,200 --> 00:35:07,040
Speaker 2: we turned up a clip of the doll that read,

665
00:35:07,840 --> 00:35:12,360
Speaker 2: I guess the Lord's Prayer, and I chuck, we have

666
00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 2: to share it because I haven't laughed out loud in

667
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 2: a really long time.

668
00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't play clips a lot, so I think

669
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,879
Speaker 1: we're probably legally okay to play this clip. So Jerry,

670
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 1: can you run that? So? Wow?

671
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:48,680
Speaker 2: Like, imagine that coming out of a doll you're holding

672
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 2: and it's dark, like there's no light in your room

673
00:35:52,200 --> 00:35:54,879
Speaker 2: because it's nighttime, and your doll starts saying that.

674
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, Or imagine as you're just in a dark room

675
00:35:57,600 --> 00:36:00,719
Speaker 1: and hear that and you turn on your Edison and

676
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:01,719
Speaker 1: that's the only thing in.

677
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,600
Speaker 2: There, right, it's just sitting in the rocking chair looking

678
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:07,399
Speaker 2: at you, rocking slightly back and forth. Or even worse,

679
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:11,760
Speaker 2: it's sitting in the wicker wheelchair in the for some reason,

680
00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:13,319
Speaker 2: staring at you your biggest fear.

681
00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:16,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, pretty good stuff.

682
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 2: I agree, So Chatty Kathy back to her, she was

683
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,440
Speaker 2: actually an inspiration for a very famous Twilight Zone episode

684
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 2: Living Doll. Do you remember that one?

685
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:29,840
Speaker 1: I don't remember that, but I did watch the clip.

686
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 2: It's good. So this was Talky Tina, and this is

687
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 2: like three years after Chatty Kathy came out, very clearly

688
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:42,600
Speaker 2: Chatty Kathy. Yeah, and she has this kind of protective

689
00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 2: feeling around her kid and doesn't like the kid's parents.

690
00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 2: And at one point they pull the doll's cord and

691
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 2: she says, my name is Talki Tina, and I'm beginning

692
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:58,200
Speaker 2: to hate you. It's a really good Twilight Zone episode,

693
00:36:58,239 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 2: which I can't really think of a bad Twilight its

694
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 2: own episode, but this one is particularly good.

695
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:03,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was good.

696
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 2: I found two other things about or one other thing

697
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:09,240
Speaker 2: I guess about Chatty Kathy. Did you see the voice

698
00:37:09,280 --> 00:37:09,919
Speaker 2: thing I sent?

699
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 1: I did not, so.

700
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 2: June Faraday, who was the voice of Rocket Jay Squirrel

701
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 2: on Rocky and Bullwinkle, and Cindy Lee who on The

702
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 2: Grinch Christmas Special. She was the first voice of Chatty Kathy,

703
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:26,600
Speaker 2: all right, and then they re released Chatty Kathy in

704
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,000
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy and the voice was Maureen McCormick, who played

705
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 2: Marsha on The Brady bunch Ow. So Marsha Marsha Trivia Masters.

706
00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 2: If you're looking for a new question, Yeah, Merry Christmas.

707
00:37:39,080 --> 00:37:41,799
Speaker 1: Yeah that no one will know unless they listen to

708
00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: stuff you should know.

709
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 2: Yes, that's right.

710
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, we should talk about Polly Pocket for a minute,

711
00:37:46,880 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: because that was a miniature doll. It was a British

712
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: and winter named Chris Wiggs who built a mini dollhouse

713
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: for his daughter out of a makeup compact in the

714
00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: early eighties, and Mattel was like, this thing's great, and

715
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:02,919
Speaker 1: they licensed Polly Pocket as a doll in the early

716
00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,520
Speaker 1: nineties and all of a sudden, many toys were a

717
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:08,600
Speaker 1: big craze. And we mentioned this because you may see

718
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 1: a movie coming to a theater screen near you because

719
00:38:12,440 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: Barbie was such a big hit. Obviously, Bye Witherspoon and

720
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:20,360
Speaker 1: her production company has optioned this away. I don't know

721
00:38:20,440 --> 00:38:22,760
Speaker 1: about Away from Lena Dunham, but Lena Dunnan was originally

722
00:38:22,800 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 1: attached a few years ago and is no longer attached,

723
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 1: And so they're trying to make Polly Pocket into a

724
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:31,280
Speaker 1: movie starring Lily Collins, Phil Collins's daughter.

725
00:38:31,600 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, what about American girl dolls? Did you know about

726
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 2: the origin of them? They came from an elementary school

727
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,080
Speaker 2: teacher in Wisconsin named Pleasant Rowland, which is a great name.

728
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:47,280
Speaker 1: That's a Jerry's nickname. Yea, yeah, Jerry pleasant Roland.

729
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:51,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. But pleasant Roland wanted to teach kids about history,

730
00:38:51,600 --> 00:38:55,239
Speaker 2: I guess, specifically girls. And she started releasing them in

731
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,120
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty six, these American girl dolls. And at first

732
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:00,480
Speaker 2: they were just mail order and they were of two

733
00:39:00,520 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 2: sixty five bucks and nineteen eighty six dollars. It's just

734
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 2: like one hundred thousand dollars today, I'm guessing. But they

735
00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,200
Speaker 2: were a big seller right off the bat, and eventually

736
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 2: you could find them in stores.

737
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 1: Too, yeah, like their own stores. Uh yeah, you know,

738
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:20,359
Speaker 1: their flagship stores. And I just encourage anyone that has dollophobia,

739
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 1: which we'll get to in a minute, to dare walk

740
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,240
Speaker 1: by or through an American girl doll store.

741
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 2: That is quite a dare.

742
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's not a dare actually, because that's not

743
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,080
Speaker 1: funny if you have a real feel like that.

744
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:33,719
Speaker 2: Rih, I was looking that up. We'll talk about it

745
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:35,720
Speaker 2: in a second, but it is some real deal stuff.

746
00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 2: It does not sound pleasant.

747
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, American girl dolls look sort of

748
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,520
Speaker 1: real but that ain't nothing like what's coming out of

749
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 1: FAO Shorts and companies like Reborn and companies like Ashton Drake,

750
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 1: because they are making these realistic baby dolls. We finally,

751
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 1: on this last trip to New York on fall break,

752
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:58,239
Speaker 1: I'd always wanted to go to Fao Shorts in New

753
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 1: York City, and we'd did. We took a trip through

754
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:05,640
Speaker 1: Fao Schwartz and I recommended, I mean, it's very, very busy,

755
00:40:05,680 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 1: so don't go in there if you have any sort

756
00:40:07,840 --> 00:40:11,759
Speaker 1: of fear of crowds, because that is one of the

757
00:40:11,800 --> 00:40:15,440
Speaker 1: most packed places I've ever been in. But eventually we

758
00:40:15,480 --> 00:40:17,879
Speaker 1: wandered over to where they had their baby, like real

759
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,279
Speaker 1: baby doll display, and I held one of these things, man,

760
00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: and it is very surreal and weird because it seems

761
00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 1: like a real baby.

762
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, like down to like the little veins in their temples,

763
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 2: the little capillaries, and the smell it did the one

764
00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 2: you hold smell of like talcum or anything. Yeah.

765
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 1: They smell and look like babies, like full stop.

766
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:42,160
Speaker 2: Yeah. And they even have weight to them too, like heft.

767
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:45,239
Speaker 2: So they're so realistic that these things are. This is

768
00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 2: what is often used as like a movie prop for

769
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 2: like a long shot or something like that, not.

770
00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: A close up, for close up if you're Bradley Cooper.

771
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 1: And a Clint Eatwood movie.

772
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:55,040
Speaker 2: Oh really, which one?

773
00:40:55,440 --> 00:40:58,600
Speaker 1: The American sniper is very famous scene where he's clearly

774
00:40:58,640 --> 00:40:59,720
Speaker 1: holding a fake baby.

775
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:01,960
Speaker 2: I didn't know that it.

776
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: Check it out on YouTube. It's hysterical, okay.

777
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 2: But people collect these things. I mean, they are essentially

778
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 2: like works of art. They're usually made individually, they're not

779
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,920
Speaker 2: mass produced. Some of them I've seen referred to as

780
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 2: museum quality pieces, so they can run hundreds of dollars,

781
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,560
Speaker 2: probably more than that for some of them. But there's

782
00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 2: other things that people do with them too. There's role

783
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 2: playing just for fun, treating them as if they're alive,

784
00:41:29,000 --> 00:41:31,760
Speaker 2: because again, they look a lot like a live baby

785
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 2: or infant. Some people use them to fill an emotional void,

786
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:41,840
Speaker 2: and then apparently they're also useful for Alzheimer's patients patients

787
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:44,799
Speaker 2: and dementia patients. And when I first saw this, I

788
00:41:44,840 --> 00:41:49,439
Speaker 2: was like, that sounds pretty mean. Actually they don't tell

789
00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:53,160
Speaker 2: the patient that this is a real baby. They're like, here,

790
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 2: hold this doll. But the doll is so lifelike that

791
00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:01,360
Speaker 2: it can trigger memories. And pleasant emotions in Alzheimer's patients

792
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,960
Speaker 2: who now remember raising their own kids. We're taking care

793
00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 2: of their own kids. And then also just the feel

794
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:10,000
Speaker 2: of holding a baby can have all sorts of positive

795
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 2: benefits for people with Alzheimer's and dementia too.

796
00:42:13,200 --> 00:42:14,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, I look that up. I mean, it's sort of

797
00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 1: pluses and minuses. It can definitely help reduce dementia, cause

798
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:22,320
Speaker 1: agitation and stuff like that, all in a non pharma

799
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,960
Speaker 1: pharmacological way, which can be good. But there are critics

800
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 1: that say, like, you gotta be real careful how you

801
00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,919
Speaker 1: do this, because it can also reduce dignity and give

802
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 1: the impression and like a reinforced like viewing people with

803
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: dementia like their children. So you just gotta do it

804
00:42:39,680 --> 00:42:41,439
Speaker 1: the right way, is what I've read.

805
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's I'm sure there's myriad wrong ways to do

806
00:42:45,560 --> 00:42:46,040
Speaker 2: it to you.

807
00:42:46,920 --> 00:42:47,240
Speaker 1: Sure.

808
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,720
Speaker 2: So that was a great, great call out, Chuck. Yeah,

809
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:54,600
Speaker 2: do you remember my buddy.

810
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 1: My buddy and me. Mm hmm bye buddy, keep my buddy,

811
00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:01,880
Speaker 1: my buddy, my buddy and me something like that.

812
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 2: That was close close enough.

813
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:06,840
Speaker 1: That was the uh what do you call that? But

814
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:07,480
Speaker 1: you got a song?

815
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 2: An earworm? Earworm no, no, no, no.

816
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 1: The jingle, Yeah, that was the jingle Everyone's screaming jingle.

817
00:43:15,600 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 1: It was very infectious. I still remember it for the

818
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,720
Speaker 1: most part all these years later. That was the inspiration

819
00:43:20,840 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 1: for Chucky from Child's Play, but that was adult that

820
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,560
Speaker 1: came out in nineteen eighty five. That was kind of

821
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:28,640
Speaker 1: during the Cabbage Patch kid craze. They were like, hey,

822
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: what about a doll this made specifically for boys and

823
00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:35,720
Speaker 1: listen to this. Hasbro Senior vice president of marketing, Steven

824
00:43:35,800 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 1: Schwartz in nineteen eighty five told the Boston Globe this,

825
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:43,240
Speaker 1: my buddy is positioned as macho like. It's soft macho

826
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,919
Speaker 1: but still macho. Like we show them climbing trees, riding

827
00:43:45,960 --> 00:43:48,520
Speaker 1: their bikes. We didn't position it like a girl doll,

828
00:43:48,640 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 1: like soft and sweet. It's macho, but soft macho. Right.

829
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,319
Speaker 2: He was wearing all these medallions with his chest there

830
00:43:55,360 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 2: poking through.

831
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:56,600
Speaker 1: Yeah.

832
00:43:56,920 --> 00:43:59,440
Speaker 2: So that was thanks to our friends at Mental Flaws

833
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:02,600
Speaker 2: who turned up that quote, which is priceless. Yeah.

834
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,080
Speaker 1: I should have read it in a Boston accent, but well.

835
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:06,239
Speaker 2: No, I think you got it.

836
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,919
Speaker 1: It was just an opportunity that was Philly, right. Well,

837
00:44:10,960 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 1: that was for the Boston Globe. But I don't know. Ah,

838
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 1: you mean my accent. No, no, no, no, that Philly

839
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:17,320
Speaker 1: accent's much different.

840
00:44:17,480 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, you didn't say yeans.

841
00:44:20,840 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he would go out after and have a hagy.

842
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 2: So, like you said, he was the role for the

843
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:28,160
Speaker 2: model for Chucky from Child's play.

844
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:30,880
Speaker 1: That's what they say that They did never confirm that.

845
00:44:31,120 --> 00:44:34,520
Speaker 2: It's pretty It's pretty close like Talkie Tina Chucky. Yeah,

846
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:38,000
Speaker 2: these things are close enough to just draw some assumptions here.

847
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:39,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed.

848
00:44:39,440 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 2: So we talked about fear of dolls, and I'm glad

849
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 2: you already kind of touched on the fact that this

850
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 2: is quite serious. This is a genuine phobia. I know,

851
00:44:47,120 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 2: to people who don't have it, it can sound like, well,

852
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 2: a fear of dolls. It almost sounds like something you

853
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,759
Speaker 2: could make a movie out of. If you have a

854
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 2: fear of dolls, pettiophobia, like, you can get a full

855
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:02,560
Speaker 2: blown panic attack. You may avoid places where you think

856
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:05,200
Speaker 2: there may be dolls. It's not just dolls, it can

857
00:45:05,239 --> 00:45:08,719
Speaker 2: be mannequins too. There's all sorts of reasons that you

858
00:45:08,840 --> 00:45:14,560
Speaker 2: can have pettiophobia, but one of the causes behind it

859
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 2: are possible causes behind it is having like a traumatic

860
00:45:18,080 --> 00:45:21,239
Speaker 2: experience with a doll, or say like with a ventriloquist

861
00:45:21,280 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 2: dummy or something like that.

862
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 1: Yeah.

863
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:26,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, it just didn't land correctly, and now you're traumatized

864
00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:30,800
Speaker 2: for the rest of your life without serious counseling because

865
00:45:30,840 --> 00:45:32,120
Speaker 2: you have this fear of dolls.

866
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:36,359
Speaker 1: Yeah for sure. You know you used to publish when

867
00:45:36,400 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: we were doing like image lists on the old house

868
00:45:39,680 --> 00:45:43,240
Speaker 1: stuffworks dot com days, your list of scary looking toys.

869
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: That thing is just gone, isn't it not on the

870
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: webiny No, oh, that's probably good. But a lot of

871
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 1: these things are creepy looking, and a lot of them

872
00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: are dolls, and you know they didn't mean to make

873
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,279
Speaker 1: them creepy looking. I think this just, you know, some

874
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 1: decision is made, like like little Miss No Name in

875
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:06,399
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty five, Margaret Keane's big eyes was a big deal,

876
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,440
Speaker 1: so were like, why don't we make a doll with

877
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:11,600
Speaker 1: those big, giant eyes, and they did and it's terrifying.

878
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 2: She is terrifying again unintentionally. I think also part of it,

879
00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 2: she has like like shadow under her eyes. She's supposed

880
00:46:18,960 --> 00:46:22,600
Speaker 2: to be kind of gaunt because she's a panhandling child

881
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:25,440
Speaker 2: who wears a burlap sack and has a tear running

882
00:46:25,480 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 2: down her cheek and unintentionally miss name.

883
00:46:30,040 --> 00:46:31,360
Speaker 1: Yes, it's awful, it.

884
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:34,760
Speaker 2: Is awful, but this was like a serious like release

885
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:38,919
Speaker 2: of a doll in nineteen sixty five. So yeah, there's

886
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 2: there's and there's plenty you can come up with. I

887
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,280
Speaker 2: would I would suggest to go looking up terrifying dolls,

888
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:48,399
Speaker 2: knockoff dolls or knockoff toois is always a little fun

889
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:52,760
Speaker 2: rabbit hole to go down, But they're not inherently creepy,

890
00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:55,800
Speaker 2: is the thing. And the reason we know that is

891
00:46:55,840 --> 00:46:58,239
Speaker 2: because there's kids out there who will play with what

892
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:01,960
Speaker 2: older people will consider a creepy all, but the kid

893
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 2: doesn't think of it that way. So if you ever

894
00:47:03,680 --> 00:47:06,520
Speaker 2: see a kid legitimately playing with a creepy doll, do

895
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 2: not go up to that kid and be like, that

896
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,480
Speaker 2: doll's really creepy, because that's how humans start to think

897
00:47:11,560 --> 00:47:13,480
Speaker 2: of things as creepy. And if they don't think of

898
00:47:13,520 --> 00:47:16,000
Speaker 2: their doll as creepy, it is not your place to

899
00:47:16,080 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 2: tell that kid that doll is creepy.

900
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:19,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure.

901
00:47:19,600 --> 00:47:24,239
Speaker 2: There's an Instagram account of a mom who has been

902
00:47:24,280 --> 00:47:28,680
Speaker 2: documenting her daughter Briar with her doll Creepy Chloe, and

903
00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 2: Creepy Chloe definitely lives up to her name, but Briar

904
00:47:31,080 --> 00:47:33,920
Speaker 2: plays with her like she is any other doll. It's

905
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 2: very cute.

906
00:47:35,239 --> 00:47:37,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, just resist the urge.

907
00:47:37,400 --> 00:47:42,040
Speaker 2: Parents, Yes, if you want to know, if you want

908
00:47:42,080 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 2: to know, yeah, I can't you see Briar like growing

909
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 2: up and sitting in her dorm smoking pot one day

910
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,720
Speaker 2: and be like, no, I understand why my mom always

911
00:47:50,760 --> 00:47:52,400
Speaker 2: threw her hand over her mouth and walked out of

912
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 2: the room when I was playing with Creepy Chloe.

913
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:57,120
Speaker 1: Or why didn't she ever tell me? It might be

914
00:47:57,239 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: the other right way of thinking about it.

915
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, so just real quick, The thing that usually explains

916
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,000
Speaker 2: why we're creeped out by dolls is the on Canny Valley.

917
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 2: We won't get into that because it's pretty deep, but

918
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:10,200
Speaker 2: we did do an episode on the Uncanny Valley. You

919
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:13,600
Speaker 2: can go find it's a good one. Yeah, you can

920
00:48:13,640 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 2: find it on stuff youshould know dot com. By the way,

921
00:48:16,160 --> 00:48:19,120
Speaker 2: that's right, You got anything else on dolls or Christmas or.

922
00:48:19,120 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 1: Anything like that, buddy, Nothing.

923
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 2: Well, I'm glad we did this one.

924
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 1: I too.

925
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:27,400
Speaker 2: Thank you for coming in from home this morning. On

926
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 2: Christmas morning to do this. That's right.

927
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:32,320
Speaker 1: All my gifts are still waiting. I told them, just

928
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:34,880
Speaker 1: not touching them, okay, and the one that's ticking, and

929
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 1: I'll be right back.

930
00:48:35,640 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 2: Well, hopefully your orange rolls aren't cold or anything like that.

931
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,680
Speaker 2: So let's go home. Let's go to our homes, not

932
00:48:41,840 --> 00:48:45,759
Speaker 2: our shared home. Yeah that's something else. Yeah, that's for

933
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,800
Speaker 2: New Year's and we'll wish everybody a merry Christmas.

934
00:48:49,920 --> 00:48:52,600
Speaker 1: Huh. Yeah. I hope everyone has a great holiday, and

935
00:48:52,640 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: I hope you're with ones you love, and if you're

936
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:58,840
Speaker 1: spending Christmas in a lesson ideal way, we are always

937
00:48:59,000 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 1: thinking about you.

938
00:48:59,800 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 2: For very nice Chuck, And I don't think we'll do listener.

939
00:49:03,719 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 1: Mail huh nah, nuts to that, as you say.

940
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, if you want to say Merry Christmas or

941
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:12,080
Speaker 2: Happy New Year, or happy Holidays or anything hi, whatever,

942
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 2: you can send it via email to stuff Podcasts at

943
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:17,200
Speaker 2: iHeartRadio dot com.

944
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,920
Speaker 1: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

945
00:49:45,040 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 1: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

946
00:49:49,320 --> 00:49:51,120
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.