Speaker 1: What kind of a show you guys putting.
Speaker 2: On here today?
Speaker 1: You're not interested in armed Now we look, we're going
Speaker 1: to do this thing. We're going to have a conversation
Speaker 1: from Chicago. This is Film Spotting celebrating our twentieth year.
Speaker 1: I'm Josh Larson and I'm Adam Kempinar. Listen.
Speaker 3: If there's one surefire rule that I have learned in
Speaker 3: this business is that I don't know anything about human nature.
Speaker 1: I don't know anything about curiosity.
Speaker 2: That's not part of what I do.
Speaker 1: What I this is my business.
Speaker 2: And when I'm sorry to cut you off there, mister Hackman,
Speaker 2: but I think you actually might know a thing or
Speaker 2: two about curiosity in human nature.
Speaker 1: That is the late great Gene Hackman in nineteen seventy
Speaker 1: fours the Conversation. This week our top five Hackman scenes.
Speaker 2: Plus the film Spotting Madness, Best of the twenty first
Speaker 2: century so far, Sweet sixteen and more. It's all ahead.
Speaker 1: Can we just call him Pappy?
Speaker 2: On Film Spotting?
Speaker 1: Mama tell the roll out of it that she ran
Speaker 1: to the body station.
Speaker 4: When if Paba found out he began a shout, he
Speaker 4: started the investigation. It agives them.
Speaker 5: This episode is brought to you by Peloton break through
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Speaker 2: Welcome to film Spotting. Later in the show, film Spotting
Speaker 2: Madness Best of the twenty first century so far, Josh,
Speaker 2: we started with sixty four. We are now down to sixteen.
Speaker 2: We will have Round two results and those sweet sixteen matchups.
Speaker 2: Voting is live right now as we speak at film
Speaker 2: spotting dot Net slash Madness. We're faced with matchups like
Speaker 2: Mad Max Fury Road versus Zodiac, So this round should
Speaker 2: be really easy. Again that's film Spotting dot Net slash Madness.
Speaker 2: Also later in the show, Josh, you have thoughts on
Speaker 2: a few new releases, including Michael Shannon's directing debut and
Speaker 2: Nicole Kidman in Holland not the country but the city
Speaker 2: in Michigan, which is a little town you know quite well.
Speaker 1: I mean, I thought I did, but apparently there's all
Speaker 1: sorts of nefarious stuff going on at them. I'm a
Speaker 1: bit concerned now.
Speaker 2: But first, Gene Hackman, the two time Oscar winner, died
Speaker 2: last month at ninety five. We knew immediately we owed
Speaker 2: Hackman a top five. It's been a few weeks. We've
Speaker 2: been doing some prep, some homework that paid off, I'd
Speaker 2: say for both of us.
Speaker 1: Josh, yeah, we knew immediately. And then how quickly were
Speaker 1: you daunted by the proact? Just knowing We did put
Speaker 1: this off for a little bit to do that homework.
Speaker 1: But still, you look at the filmography, you'd have to
Speaker 1: take a year to properly assess his entire career. But
Speaker 1: I feel good about the work we did. To your point,
Speaker 1: we saw some films for the first time, including one
Speaker 1: we'll get to that you and I both loved, watched
Speaker 1: a few things, and so I think we did our
Speaker 1: due diligence, and I think we will do Hackman's legacy
Speaker 1: justice with this.
Speaker 2: Let's hope. Let's go ahead and make that attempt. Now,
Speaker 2: how did you approach your Gene Hackman top five? And
Speaker 2: go ahead and tell us, when ready what your number five?
Speaker 2: Gene Hackman scene is.
Speaker 1: So started, you know, just doing the basic bio research.
Speaker 1: In one place I usually turn is Ephraim Katz's film
Speaker 1: Encyclopedia when a legend passes, and I love what he
Speaker 1: had there, just the first line character star of Hollywood films,
Speaker 1: not character actor, character star, and I thought, okay, that's perfect, right,
Speaker 1: Just that's Hackman right there. And so I had that
Speaker 1: in my mind and then thought, you know more, Okay,
Speaker 1: what does make him that distinction not just a character
Speaker 1: actor we love, not just your traditional star, but what
Speaker 1: combines those two qualities. And I really did come to
Speaker 1: what I feel is the quintessential Hackman character after doing
Speaker 1: a lot of this work, Adam, and to me, it
Speaker 1: is the self deluded cock of the walk. So in
Speaker 1: many of his movies, Hackman's roosters they can back it up, right.
Speaker 1: I think this is one thing we love about him
Speaker 1: is he barks and he bites. That's entertaining. But I
Speaker 1: think in his best performances, Hackman wears a shit eating
Speaker 1: grin and he has to actually eat the shit. That
Speaker 1: is what is fascinating about him and how he can
Speaker 1: play that line. And obviously he has ranged beyond this.
Speaker 1: There's definitely a heroic side to him as well. I
Speaker 1: do want to note over on my Facebook page heard
Speaker 1: from a former newspaper colleague, Niki Roller, and she shared
Speaker 1: this Gene has been a cinematic rock for me in
Speaker 1: his movies that probably lacked critical acclaim. I can and
Speaker 1: do appreciate his less mainstream efforts, but for me, I
Speaker 1: will remember him as an actor who taught leadership and sacrifice.
Speaker 1: I miss him already, and so I wanted to note
Speaker 1: that because I think that's true and a very good
Speaker 1: point about a lot of the roles he took. It's
Speaker 1: not where my list leaned, however, and I could have
Speaker 1: sprinkled some of that in. I could have gone for
Speaker 1: the Pope Prix represent his range route and one of
Speaker 1: my picks does that to a degree. But for me,
Speaker 1: most of them are variations on this Hackman rooster who
Speaker 1: gets called out for his crowing. That's kind of where
Speaker 1: I landed after reassessing things. So I'm going to start
Speaker 1: in a place like that with my number five pick,
Speaker 1: and it comes from that decade we associate most with Hackman.
Speaker 1: It's the seventies. This is Night Moves nineteen seventy five.
Speaker 1: Adam I was assigned this film in the only film
Speaker 1: appreciation class that my college offered, so of course I
Speaker 1: took the class, and that's where I first encountered it.
Speaker 1: Maybe something of a curious choice, especially if this is
Speaker 1: the only offering you have for all of cinema. But
Speaker 1: Night Moves is one we considered. I didn't remember all
Speaker 1: that much about it, some of the images, but I
Speaker 1: thought I got to give this one another look, you know,
Speaker 1: just the fact that my professor chose it to be
Speaker 1: so representative, and wow, is it a key text in
Speaker 1: this Hackman rooster theory. He plays Harry Moseby here, a
Speaker 1: former football star turned la private eye, and at the
Speaker 1: beginning of the movie he's hired by this aging movie
Speaker 1: actress to track down her promiscuous teen daughter played by
Speaker 1: Melanie Griffith, who, you know, talking seventies is kind of
Speaker 1: uncomfortably was uncomfortably on the edge of legality when this
Speaker 1: movie was made, So so take that aspect of it
Speaker 1: with a grain of salt. Now, Night Moves also, when
Speaker 1: you look at its time and its context, came out
Speaker 1: a year after Chinatown, and it's definitely in a similar
Speaker 1: noir mold. You have Harry here the Hackman character as
Speaker 1: a Jake Gettis type. I think this cocky detective who
Speaker 1: has a bit of a haughty side to him that
Speaker 1: ends up blinding him to what's really going on. And
Speaker 1: like Chinatown, Night Moves is partly about Harry coming to
Speaker 1: that self realization. So we get a hint of this.
Speaker 1: My favorite hint of this is in my pick my
Speaker 1: actual scene. This is a very quiet mid movie moment
Speaker 1: between Harry and Griffith's deli. This is after he's caught
Speaker 1: up with her in Florida. He's kind of assessed the
Speaker 1: situation of what's going on with her there, and he
Speaker 1: has convinced her to come home. He's rebuffed her advances.
Speaker 1: So they're having this quiet conversation and she offers him
Speaker 1: this compliment.
Speaker 2: I think people, you okay.
Speaker 1: Em an ace? Yeah, yeah, I'm an ace. I mean
Speaker 1: the line delivery alone tells you he doesn't fully believe it,
Speaker 1: but he's trying to sell it. His face though, if
Speaker 1: you can watch this scene, Hackman's face betrays that he
Speaker 1: doesn't really think of himself as okay, let alone anything
Speaker 1: like the good guy, you know, the heroic detective in
Speaker 1: this scenario. So I do think that that tension is
Speaker 1: where happens. Best characters lived between what they're selling to
Speaker 1: others into themselves what they actually are, and then how
Speaker 1: aware they are of the gap between the two. So
Speaker 1: I'm an ace from Night Moves is my number five.
Speaker 2: Night Moves was a film I didn't see for the
Speaker 2: first time, and I have only seen it once. I
Speaker 2: saw finally in twenty twenty that first month of COVID.
Speaker 2: You may recall, Josh that I was just trying to
Speaker 2: use some of that newfound free time to catch up
Speaker 2: with some blind spots, some films that I didn't really
Speaker 2: have a good explanation for why I had never seen.
Speaker 2: And it started with Dirty Harry, a film I'd seen
Speaker 2: many moments from multiple times but never actually watch the
Speaker 2: whole film from start to finish. And then I watch Lenny,
Speaker 2: the Bob Fosse movie. I realized I was watching films
Speaker 2: that had all been shot by Bruce Surtiz, and that
Speaker 2: then took me to Night Moves, which had always been
Speaker 2: on my radar as an Arthur Penn film and a
Speaker 2: Hackman film that I needed to see. But it was
Speaker 2: that accidental Sirtees marathon that finally forced me to watch it.
Speaker 2: This is what I wrote on letterboxed about it, and
Speaker 2: I just noticed this now as you were referencing your pick, Josh.
Speaker 2: The more I think about how utterly incapable of connection
Speaker 2: everyone in the movie is and how it disappoints as
Speaker 2: a noir, the more I recognize how such disillusionment and
Speaker 2: dissatisfaction is precisely the point also, Colin Gene Hackman, incapable
Speaker 2: of connection, disillusionment, dissatisfaction. These ideas may come up again
Speaker 2: throughout my list. Looking it over. The challenge for me,
Speaker 2: besides just having to consider, as you said, so many
Speaker 2: good scenes, so many good performances, characters, movies, the challenge
Speaker 2: was between the best scenes featuring Gene Hackman and the
Speaker 2: best Gene Hackman scenes right, because there are so many
Speaker 2: iconic examples to consider, And I started piecing together how
Speaker 2: the same characteristics that make Hackman such a commanding presence
Speaker 2: to watch as a good guy very often, they're the
Speaker 2: same traits that make him such a good villain or
Speaker 2: a good anti hero. There is a practicality to his
Speaker 2: characters often and a persistence to them. It can be
Speaker 2: admirable at times, but in other cases his characters are
Speaker 2: driven by an end justifies the means kind of philosophy
Speaker 2: that gets him into a little bit of trouble or
Speaker 2: maybe gets him into trouble with us as viewers. And
Speaker 2: to your point about his confidence, there is often that
Speaker 2: quiet confidence that can occasionally cross over into full blown
Speaker 2: arrogance where we are happy to see him get a
Speaker 2: bit of come uppance. And it's not just the the
Speaker 2: Hackman chuckle that can be merry or menacing, Josh, it's
Speaker 2: even just the twinkle in his eyes. So many scenes
Speaker 2: I realized I was considering, we're completely nonverbal, yeah, Hackman.
Speaker 1: That's a tough thing about this list and thinking about
Speaker 1: doing this show right is we're gonna share scenes, and
Speaker 1: I'm realizing for so many of these we're missing fifty
Speaker 1: percent of the magic.
Speaker 2: That's it. The magic is in his watching, his listening,
Speaker 2: his withholding, in his subtle reacting. Sometimes he's just perhaps
Speaker 2: playing an instrument I don't know, like a saxophone. The
Speaker 2: end of the conversation is a perfect example of this
Speaker 2: dilemma right all time great end scene extremely memorable. Is
Speaker 2: it a great Gene Hackman scene or is it a
Speaker 2: great scene featuring Gene Hackman. What about the car chase
Speaker 2: in The French Connection, maybe the greatest car chase in cinema,
Speaker 2: and Hackman's purely physical performance is part of why it's great.
Speaker 2: I'll say that, but is it the number one reason?
Speaker 2: Is it even the number two reason why it's great?
Speaker 2: Maybe I'd entertain the argument, but it is a discussion
Speaker 2: that we'd have to have. I did try to strike
Speaker 2: a balance where I was representing his most iconic characters
Speaker 2: and moments, but also reflecting his dramatic range and that
Speaker 2: judicious balance of calmness and quiet with those occasional explosions
Speaker 2: of anger or violence that we get with Gene Hackman.
Speaker 2: My number five is from The French Connection, and it's
Speaker 2: the end scene, and it's this line reading, in particular,
Speaker 2: Josh I saw him. I'm going to get him. I
Speaker 2: may not have the car chase here, but it felt
Speaker 2: wrong to have a top five Hackman list without Popeye
Speaker 2: Doyle on it.
Speaker 3: Popeyes here, if your hand on your heads.
Speaker 6: Get off the barn, get on the wall, Come on,
Speaker 6: move move.
Speaker 2: I rewatched this just a few days ago, and look,
Speaker 2: it's William Friedkin's film The Big Swings, like the car
Speaker 2: Chase the pure propulsive energy of it. It is by
Speaker 2: no means an actor's showcase. Fernando Ray is kind of
Speaker 2: fun as the bad guy I dig Roy Scheider, but
Speaker 2: there's nothing really memorable about his performance or his character Cloudy.
Speaker 2: If you took all of Hackman's lines in The French
Speaker 2: Connection and combine them, it probably wouldn't fill more than
Speaker 2: three to four pages of the screenplay. And yet try
Speaker 2: to imagine that movie working half as well as it
Speaker 2: does without the depth of Hackman's characterization. How Hackman renders
Speaker 2: and Friedkin captures behavior. Popeye Doyle doesn't say much, and
Speaker 2: he never says anything really about himself. He doesn't express
Speaker 2: his inner longings and emotions, but we know exactly who
Speaker 2: Popeye Doyle is and that propulsive energy that's driven by
Speaker 2: Popeye's obsession. Do we want to see the bad guys
Speaker 2: get busted because it's a crime thriller and we want
Speaker 2: that kind of resolution, Probably, but we really want that
Speaker 2: resolution because of Popeye's relentless and occasionally reckless pursuit, his
Speaker 2: absolute tunnel vision, which all culminates in that end scene,
Speaker 2: and freedkin staging of it is so great that final
Speaker 2: shootout in the old building, the emptiness of it, the
Speaker 2: eeriness of Don Ellis's score. It somehow feels like a
Speaker 2: manifestation of Popeye's deranged psyche and i'll use your word,
Speaker 2: delusional psyche. But the wonder of that scene is that
Speaker 2: final line, and Hackman's line reading he has just mistakenly
Speaker 2: shot an FBI agent trying to chase down the same
Speaker 2: drug dealer that he is, and when confronted with this fact,
Speaker 2: he's unfazed. He's undeterred, aldered, you shot muldered.
Speaker 1: Some of it is here. I saw it.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna get him.
Speaker 2: What I think is so incredible about that line, Josh,
Speaker 2: and what Hackman does with it is despite what I
Speaker 2: said before being true, he's completely deranged in this moment.
Speaker 2: He is manic, but he doesn't yell, he doesn't even
Speaker 2: really raise his voice. He somehow brings just a hint
Speaker 2: of humanity and even vulnerability to pop Eye to such
Speaker 2: an extent that you almost feel sorry for him in
Speaker 2: that moment rather than feeling potentially repulsed by it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, it's because there's a crack of self awareness,
Speaker 1: perhaps for the first time in the movie. And yeah,
Speaker 1: I rewatched this as well for this list, just because
Speaker 1: it is one of those Hackman titles that comes up
Speaker 1: first and I wanted to find that scene. Spoiler, it's
Speaker 1: an honorable mention for me. Didn't make the top five,
Speaker 1: but I would have gone exactly where you went. Really,
Speaker 1: this is the moment. I thought about the busting up
Speaker 1: the bar scene earlier, but that's like the pure Hackman blood.
Speaker 1: That's like what we love to see, right, because you
Speaker 1: can't believe he's walking in and just immediately owning that
Speaker 1: place that he really shouldn't even be in. So I
Speaker 1: thought about that one, but you nailed why. This is
Speaker 1: the scene from the French Connection, and it is his
Speaker 1: glassy eyed non response to shooting the other agent that
Speaker 1: is terrifying. But I think you're right. Also allows us
Speaker 1: a peek into Popeye realizing for just a split second
Speaker 1: who he really is. And then again to your point,
Speaker 1: like he plows ahead anyway, he's not going to like
Speaker 1: pause and reassess and really consider the depths of his humanity.
Speaker 1: But there's that little glimmer that Hackman, even in this wild,
Speaker 1: you know, action driven movie, is able to carve out
Speaker 1: some space for.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just think a lesser actor would have delivered
Speaker 2: that line as if it was being driven more by adrenaline,
Speaker 2: the adrenaline of the character in that scene and having
Speaker 2: to reckon with what he's just done. I think that
Speaker 2: reckoning is there. I think we are seeing the crack
Speaker 2: starting to come through, but he plays it so subtly,
Speaker 2: he plays it as if he really is processing it
Speaker 2: in that moment, and then yes, he does proceed.
Speaker 1: On all right. Number four. This is my Unforgiven pick,
Speaker 1: and I wasn't quite sure if this was going to
Speaker 1: make my list, you know, because I read we did
Speaker 1: a Sacred Cow review. I think Adam of Unforgiven a
Speaker 1: handful of years ago, so it was fairly fresh for me.
Speaker 1: I read what I originally wrote about the film, and
Speaker 1: you know, Hackman didn't come up a lot. So I
Speaker 1: was thinking to myself, Okay, why didn't I make a point?
Speaker 1: And maybe he did in our conversation. I didn't re
Speaker 1: listen to that, But why didn't he Why doesn't he
Speaker 1: stick in in my mind more than just the villain?
Speaker 1: So I did go through and watch basically every scene
Speaker 1: of his in the movie because they're all available online.
Speaker 1: Because this is one of those Hackman roles and Yeah,
Speaker 1: there is obviously so many layers there beyond the big
Speaker 1: bad guy of Unforgiven. That is, he lingers in our
Speaker 1: memory that way, because this is a movie full of tough,
Speaker 1: violent men, and Hackman's merciless sheriff little Bill here is
Speaker 1: maybe the scariest one, right, and there are so many
Speaker 1: intimidating scenes that attest to that. So that's what we
Speaker 1: have in our memory. But Steve Emily, writing on my
Speaker 1: Facebook page, he called out the slightly different scene that
Speaker 1: I'm going to go with, and this is little Bill's
Speaker 1: final moments after he's been shot by Clint Eastwood's William Money,
Speaker 1: and basically he's staring down the barrel of Money's gun here, I'll.
Speaker 2: Have to serve this.
Speaker 1: To die like this, I was filling the huff deserves,
Speaker 1: got nothing to do with it.
Speaker 2: I'll see you in hell, Money.
Speaker 1: Steve Emily again nailed exactly what makes this moment so
Speaker 1: key for me. He wrote, a man finally realizing that
Speaker 1: he's not the hero, and I love that because there
Speaker 1: is a version of Unforgiven where little Bill is the hero.
Speaker 2: Of course, and he certainly sees himself that way.
Speaker 1: That's it, that is it. He's trying to preserve the
Speaker 1: peace in this small town. Right, He's only implying employing
Speaker 1: violence because that's the world he lives in. This is
Speaker 1: the world of the movie. Certainly that's the version playing
Speaker 1: in little Bill's head. Because how about the phrase we
Speaker 1: get here, I was building a house. I mean to
Speaker 1: insert that there, great screenwriting, but also to be able
Speaker 1: to move from that to who little Bill really is.
Speaker 1: You know, we've seen his vindictiveness, his cruelty, his arbitrary
Speaker 1: application of the law, so we know differently. But this
Speaker 1: is a glimpse into his head, that one line, and
Speaker 1: then to switch this is the hackman's subtlety to switch
Speaker 1: from that openness. It's the same openness you were just
Speaker 1: talking about at the end of the French connection, that
Speaker 1: little crack, that little glimmer. Then he switches to I'll
Speaker 1: see you in Hell, and his face changing to match.
Speaker 1: That's when little Bill faces that truth when he makes
Speaker 1: that shift. So so yeah, so many good choices from Unforgiven,
Speaker 1: but I'll see You in Hell is going to be
Speaker 1: number four on my list.
Speaker 2: I'm realizing with that line, and that is the line
Speaker 2: of that scene, I was building a house. We could
Speaker 2: just do top five Gene Hackman line readings. That's what
Speaker 2: it really could be, this list instead of scenes, because
Speaker 2: there are so many good ones to choose from, and
Speaker 2: it says so much just by being so concise, this
Speaker 2: idea of building a house, as if he's trying to
Speaker 2: suggest to the world that I really am a good person.
Speaker 2: But also I'm not really this person like William Money is.
Speaker 2: I'm someone who is settled down. I've eschewed the outlaw
Speaker 2: kind of life. I'm listening to the citizen, the right
Speaker 2: kind of life. That's it and it doesn't matter. And
Speaker 2: as William Money says, deserve has nothing to do with it.
Speaker 2: It's so good. My number four is one where I'm
Speaker 2: going to pick up the vulnerability theme again. Long time
Speaker 2: since I've seen the movie The Conversation. I'll thank Joshua
Speaker 2: t ruth Over on the film spotting facebook page for
Speaker 2: reminding me of this scene where Hackman's Harry Call is
Speaker 2: talking to a woman he has met at a party.
Speaker 2: It's Meredith, played by Elizabeth McCrae. They're sharing what seems
Speaker 2: to be a very intimate moment together. They're alone in
Speaker 2: this big space, the space where he works effectively his office,
Speaker 2: but they're alone, They're up against a pillar, there is
Speaker 2: no space between them. She's certainly expressing romantic interest in him,
Speaker 2: and probably thinks that he's expressing romantic interest in her.
Speaker 2: Though what we realize is that he's completely hung up
Speaker 2: on Terry Gar's and Harry trusts no one. He confides
Speaker 2: in no one. He's unwilling to betray anything about who
Speaker 2: he really is. And yet in this moment, he he
Speaker 2: does feel at least safe enough to open up a
Speaker 2: little bits.
Speaker 1: You never really know when he was going to come
Speaker 1: to see.
Speaker 3: He just lived in a room alone and you knew
Speaker 3: nothing about him. And if you loved him, you're a
Speaker 3: patient with him. And even though he didn't dare ever
Speaker 3: tell you anything about himself personally, even though he may
Speaker 3: have want you, would you qut you would you go
Speaker 3: back to.
Speaker 2: How I know?
Speaker 1: How do you think it out? In't have no wife,
Speaker 1: not anyone.
Speaker 2: Here's one of those moments, joshuare. What you can't see
Speaker 2: just listening to the audio of that clip is the
Speaker 2: way Harry almost mutters before he says anything. It's like
Speaker 2: he's so uncomfortable and he's so reticent to speak that
Speaker 2: he has to almost test his lips out before he
Speaker 2: makes an actual sound, and that bravado certainly the bravado
Speaker 2: we associate with Little Bill and many other Hackman characters,
Speaker 2: it's completely stripped away with Harry Call. There is a
Speaker 2: cautiousness to the way he talks, There's a cautiousness to
Speaker 2: the way he holds himself. He not only doesn't fully
Speaker 2: trust her, he doesn't trust himself in mos like this,
Speaker 2: And the line here is you'd have no way of
Speaker 2: knowing his answer to her question, which actually doesn't really
Speaker 2: feel like an answer to her question. He doesn't say
Speaker 2: it matter of factly. He doesn't say it like he
Speaker 2: is answering her. There's enough disappointment in himself and self
Speaker 2: contempt that seeps in. It's as if he's saying, right,
Speaker 2: of course, how could you go back to him when
Speaker 2: you could never know he loved you. Hackman is just
Speaker 2: too understated to show us the light bulb going off,
Speaker 2: But that's effectively what's happening there. He Harry Call, is
Speaker 2: realizing something through this exchange, and he's realizing something profoundly sad.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all in the pauses, the nonverbal gestures that
Speaker 1: you're describing in this scene, and that is a great
Speaker 1: line too. That's a moment almost it's almost like he's
Speaker 1: come to this observation about humanity, humanity that applies to
Speaker 1: this situation. But that's what hitting him right there, but
Speaker 1: he doesn't deliver it that way. You know. It's it's
Speaker 1: like this, this just little a side of despair, resignation Hackman. Resignation.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, a good word, but it's it's resignation and
Speaker 2: it's a realization of unfortunately hopelessness. There's there's a hopelessness
Speaker 2: with this character. This is something he is never going
Speaker 2: to be able to get over.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which is, you know, a fitting theme for that film.
Speaker 1: I do have conversation as an honorable mention for me,
Speaker 1: a different moment, but maybe we'll get to that when
Speaker 1: we get to honorable mentions. My number three comes from
Speaker 1: Mississippi Burning Story about my daddy. This one was my homework.
Speaker 1: Actually it was a first time watch for me. Even
Speaker 1: though this was a nineteen eighty eight Oscar nominee. I
Speaker 1: remember it at that time when I would have been
Speaker 1: so into what was going on with the Oscars and
Speaker 1: somehow would have been in middle school and still didn't
Speaker 1: see this, but yeah. Hackman Best Actor nomination for this
Speaker 1: one as well. He plays an FBI agent alongside partner
Speaker 1: Willem Dafoe, assigned to investigate the disappearance of three civil
Speaker 1: rights activists in rural Mississippi. Is set in nineteen sixty four,
Speaker 1: and they're a bit of an odd couple. Dafoe is
Speaker 1: this younger, naive, hard charging idealist. Hackman's character, we learn,
Speaker 1: used to be a sheriff in the South, so he
Speaker 1: has a much better understanding of what they're actually up
Speaker 1: against here. And there's this point when Dafoe sort of
Speaker 1: rhetorically wonders where all this hatred he's encountering comes from,
Speaker 1: and then Hackman meanders into a story from his childhood
Speaker 1: about his father having poisoned a black neighbor's mule because
Speaker 1: the neighbor's farm was doing better than his father's.
Speaker 7: One time, we were driving down the road and we passed
Speaker 7: Monroe's place and we saw it was empty. He just
Speaker 7: packed up and the laft I guess gone up north
Speaker 7: or something. I looked over in my daddy's face, and
Speaker 7: I knew he'd done it.
Speaker 1: He saw that. I knew he's shame. I guess he
Speaker 1: was shamed.
Speaker 7: He looked at me and he said, if you any
Speaker 7: better than your son, who are you better than?
Speaker 1: I think that's an excuse. No, it's not an excuse
Speaker 1: to this story about Mandandy. Think of what Hackman is
Speaker 1: accomplishing here in just one folksy little yarn. The first thing,
Speaker 1: and you know the screen play has a lot to
Speaker 1: do with this, But the first thing, he's painting a
Speaker 1: sociological portrait of the racial and economic realities of the
Speaker 1: American South in the early twentieth century. Okay, so we're
Speaker 1: getting that in this indelible image and little story. He's
Speaker 1: also telling us everything we need to know about how
Speaker 1: his character came to be who he is and retains
Speaker 1: what attitudes he has that we've already picked up on.
Speaker 1: Then he's hinting at the self reflective qualities. Anderson also
Speaker 1: has right that he is not just eating up his
Speaker 1: family's history, but thinking about it and what that says
Speaker 1: about his own place in the dynamics of this case
Speaker 1: that they're investigating. So he's basically here sharing both where
Speaker 1: he came from, how he understands that he's not exactly
Speaker 1: part of that past, but still kind of is you know,
Speaker 1: he's not refuting this to the foe and totally like
Speaker 1: saying you're right and all these people are morons. He's trying,
Speaker 1: he's trying to wrestle with this reality in real time
Speaker 1: here and over on Blue Sky. Stephen Kotch put it
Speaker 1: this way. This scene is not only a thesis for
Speaker 1: the film, but Hackman delivers the story perfectly. An old
Speaker 1: man who was just so full of hate he didn't
Speaker 1: know being poor is what was killing him. That remains
Speaker 1: depressingly pression. So over all, I would say I was
Speaker 1: a little disappointed in Mississippi Burning, not just because it's
Speaker 1: you know, it has sort of the oscary stuff I expected,
Speaker 1: but this does in the way that the French connection
Speaker 1: keeps a bit of a distance from Popeye's vigilanteism, this
Speaker 1: Mississippi Burning kind of endorses that by the end, and
Speaker 1: it's all largely enacted by Hackman's character in the climax,
Speaker 1: and it's just this kind of bitterly ironic thing for
Speaker 1: a movie about civil rights and protecting civil rights, that
Speaker 1: to my mind, it ends up endorsing. You know, if
Speaker 1: you're on the right side of history, you can do it.
Speaker 1: So that was a little disturbing, but you know, Hackman overall,
Speaker 1: I will say, keeps the movie on its toes because
Speaker 1: here he is playing another character who's simmering in this
Speaker 1: sense of moral unease. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I do love that exchange. And this is a nod
Speaker 2: not just to Hackman, but to the editor of this scene.
Speaker 2: That moment when Defoe kind of challenges him back and says, oh,
Speaker 2: so that's the excuse, and he immediately responds and says, no,
Speaker 2: this is just a story about my daddy. Yeah, And
Speaker 2: it's as if he's acknowledging that I'm telling you this parable,
Speaker 2: because like a good parable, there is some larger meaning
Speaker 2: and depth to it. But let's not read into it
Speaker 2: too much. It is ultimately a story just about my daddy.
Speaker 2: And that's that little Hackman twinkle that comes through in
Speaker 2: that moment. Here's my unforgiven pick at number three. I'm
Speaker 2: going with the scene where we see the sadistic side
Speaker 2: of Little Bill really come out beating up Richard Harris's
Speaker 2: English Bob outside the barber shop. We've got to get
Speaker 2: some Hackman swagger in here. I've been talking about sadness
Speaker 2: and vulnerability, that devilish grin. We never see it with
Speaker 2: Harry Call, we barely see it with Popeye Doyle. But
Speaker 2: Little Bill is a devil who is sure enjoying his authority.
Speaker 2: And English Bob and his biographer arrive in town. They
Speaker 2: initially forego giving up their firearms when asked by one
Speaker 2: of Little Bill's deputies. That leads to this confrontation outside
Speaker 2: the barbershop, with a Little Bill holding court in front
Speaker 2: of the entire town, and that quiet confidence. Hackman plays
Speaker 2: him almost the whole time, with his hand on his hip,
Speaker 2: standing with a certain posture as if he's he's a
Speaker 2: little laid back about the whole thing. But we see
Speaker 2: how focused he is. We know that he's ready to
Speaker 2: strike if he has to. We certainly know that he's
Speaker 2: ready to draw his gun if he needs to. But
Speaker 2: he's steady, he's unflappable. He never raises his voice at
Speaker 2: all until.
Speaker 1: I guess you think I'm kicking you, Bob.
Speaker 6: So what I'm doing is, yeah, I'm pugging all of
Speaker 6: films down there in Candace, and I'm plugging all of
Speaker 6: films in Massaiah.
Speaker 1: Not a shame, I'm telling the right now, Horse Golf.
Speaker 2: We get an explosion of violence from him. That's similar
Speaker 2: to the showdown in Crimson Tide with Denzel Washington that
Speaker 2: a lot of people wrote in suggesting that he should
Speaker 2: consider for this list. Of course, that's strictly verbal, but
Speaker 2: it's another moment where a Hackman character finally just abandons
Speaker 2: professional courtesy. And how about that line as he's beating him,
Speaker 2: I guess you think I'm kicking you, Bob, And I said,
Speaker 2: he's holding court. He is. He's using English Bob and
Speaker 2: his loathing for English Bob, which is legitimate because of
Speaker 2: their past, to send a larger message to others who
Speaker 2: may be deciding to come to town. And my favorite
Speaker 2: touch one of those touches that you want to give
Speaker 2: the actor credit for that you feel like you have
Speaker 2: to assume it was something the act or chose to do,
Speaker 2: but of course it might have been in the script,
Speaker 2: it might have been something that Eastwood himself suggested. But
Speaker 2: after all that punching and kicking English Bob, Bloody Hackman
Speaker 2: just finally is so mad he throws his cowboy hat
Speaker 2: at him, and that act shows how little respect he
Speaker 2: has for him, but also shows that he's not quite
Speaker 2: as unflappable as he makes himself out to be. That's
Speaker 2: where we see that little sadistic street to little Bill
Speaker 2: come out. There is a look in his eye as
Speaker 2: he's yelling at the townspeople to leave that has that
Speaker 2: same hint of madness that we see in Popeye Doyle
Speaker 2: at the end of the French Connection. We're all looking
Speaker 2: at go Long, get out here. Who.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that throwing the hat makes it personal too,
Speaker 1: like he wouldn't do that if they didn't have that history.
Speaker 1: So it's a gesture that speaks to the character's past,
Speaker 1: which is so brilliant. But yeah, mostly this scene, it
Speaker 1: is that really frightening boiling over and also the smugness
Speaker 1: that's attendant to it. The beginning of the scene has
Speaker 1: that you were describing, has such a smugness, which I
Speaker 1: think is also a quality shared by so many of
Speaker 1: Hackman's great characters.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it helps when you're probably fairly confident in your
Speaker 2: abilities as a sheriff and as a gun slinger, but
Speaker 2: when you also have like eight deputies around all the goods, right,
Speaker 2: it's really easy to be in confident. Right, more Hackman
Speaker 2: coming later in the show.
Speaker 1: Well, listening to us is the number one thing you
Speaker 1: can do to support an independently produced show like Film Spotting,
Speaker 1: But there are a couple of other things. If you'd
Speaker 1: like to help us out, you could take a minute
Speaker 1: to give us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts
Speaker 1: or Spotify. Doesn't matter if you're a first time listener
Speaker 1: or if you've been listening for twenty years. Every new
Speaker 1: review helps us reach new listeners. You could also support
Speaker 1: us by joining the Film Spotting Family. You can do
Speaker 1: it right over there at Film Spotting Family. We want
Speaker 1: to welcome new family plus member Darren in Connecticut. I've
Speaker 1: been following Darren for a while on letterbox as j
Speaker 1: Gunn five. The number five all one word. So welcome Darren.
Speaker 1: Good to see you join the family.
Speaker 2: Been a longtime listener. Familiar name certainly to me. Darren writes,
Speaker 2: when I saw The Wolf of Wall Street, I needed
Speaker 2: some help processing it, and boy did you too process it?
Speaker 2: Is that what we did. I was instantly hooked on
Speaker 2: how well you both reasoned through your arguments. I ultimately
Speaker 2: sided with Josh on this one. By the way, Now
Speaker 2: that was a parenthetical, and sometimes maybe parentheticals should just
Speaker 2: be left out. I don't know, and I read.
Speaker 1: It one thing we know is Darren did not vote
Speaker 1: for Wolf of Wall Street in Film spot Madness.
Speaker 2: He didn't favorite review or segment Top five things We've
Speaker 2: learned podcasting about the movies. That was a milestone celebration
Speaker 2: some year six p. Ninety four was the episode with
Speaker 2: our friend Dave Chen. What review we got wrong? It's
Speaker 2: kind of a cop out, but I'll say that you
Speaker 2: got both Come On, Come On, especially Twentieth Century Women
Speaker 2: wrong by failing to give either of them a featured review. Josh,
Speaker 2: this reminds me that we need to pencil in. We
Speaker 2: need to add to our list of top five suggestions
Speaker 2: for the future, top five movies that we didn't give
Speaker 2: a proper review to because they came out in that
Speaker 2: bizarre end of year limbo period when we're catching up
Speaker 2: with everything for awards. Maybe some films are not giving
Speaker 2: quite as much attention as we should because we're trying
Speaker 2: to fit in so much, and we take some time
Speaker 2: off around Thanksgiving and then we have the Top ten
Speaker 2: show and we just don't have all those normal reviews.
Speaker 2: What I'm saying, Darren is you're absolutely right. We did
Speaker 2: not give Come On, Come On or Twentieth Century Women
Speaker 2: their due, even though I liked both of those films.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean I loved come On, come On, and
Speaker 1: I think Sam is maybe the biggest fan. Do I
Speaker 1: have this right of twenty second three fair women that
Speaker 1: I know? So?
Speaker 2: Yeah? His letterbox top four, Josh, this is unassailable. He
Speaker 2: says they change periodically. Currently it's focusing on four favorites
Speaker 2: celebrating their twentieth, fortieth, sixtieth, and eightieth anniversaries. Okay, so
Speaker 2: there's a method to his letterbox Madness, Eternal Sunshine of
Speaker 2: the Spotless Mind, Paris, Texas. And then as if he
Speaker 2: is trying to make both of us happy for siding
Speaker 2: with you on the Wolf of Wall Street, the Umbrellas
Speaker 2: of Sherboor, and my beloved Double Indemnity.
Speaker 1: Great group, but I love this method. I love giving
Speaker 1: yourself a way to rotate and not just an excuse
Speaker 1: to those an excuse. Yeah, let's just call it excuse.
Speaker 2: A favorite movie he revisited recently searching for Bobby Fisher
Speaker 2: ridiculously underrated. I can name a dozen top five lists
Speaker 2: this should be featured on. I like searching for Bobby Fisher.
Speaker 2: But I'm one of those people who I suppose ridiculously
Speaker 2: underrates it. It's fine, you've never seen it. Okay, a
Speaker 2: random film or filmmaker that Darren loves smooth Talk. This
Speaker 2: absolutely would have been the Golden Brick winner of nineteen
Speaker 2: eighty five. Will smooth Talk take your word for it,
Speaker 2: because clearly neither of us have seen it, he credits.
Speaker 1: I gotta just because this is in our this is
Speaker 1: our we're you know, eighties kids. Essentially, I gotta, Oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, smooth Talk have no recollection of the movie,
Speaker 1: but I know this VHS cover. It's treat Williams and
Speaker 1: Laura Dern hot pink eighties fine, right, purple around the edges.
Speaker 7: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Here here's the plot. A free spirited fifteen year old
Speaker 1: girl flirts with a dangerous stranger in the northern California
Speaker 1: suburbs and must prepare herself for the frightening and traumatic consequences.
Speaker 1: Directed by Joyce Chapra.
Speaker 2: Okay, I definitely saw that box in my local video
Speaker 2: store many times as well, Josh. I don't think I
Speaker 2: ever truly considered renting it, though.
Speaker 1: I mean this this. We might have to start a
Speaker 1: new series for titles like This Time Time Machine Reviews
Speaker 1: or something like once it just got lost, but we
Speaker 1: have some vague remembrance of let's finally watch them.
Speaker 2: Well, here's one we both have seen and love, a
Speaker 2: movie he credits with becoming a cinephile of Spike Lee's
Speaker 2: Do the Right Thing and his favorite book about movies
Speaker 2: or movie making. Darren says, before I discovered letterbox lists
Speaker 2: and film Spotting Madness, Ebert's The Great Movies gave me
Speaker 2: my cinematic homework. Thank you, Darren for joining the family
Speaker 2: and for all those years of listening. In addition to
Speaker 2: keeping us doing what we're doing, your support comes with perks.
Speaker 2: You get to listen early in ED Free, You get
Speaker 2: our weekly newsletter. You get exclusive opportunities and access to
Speaker 2: things like the Film Spotting Family Discord. You also get
Speaker 2: our monthly bonus shows we have. Now as people are
Speaker 2: hearing this, Josh dropped into our feed the March edition
Speaker 2: of Trivia Spotting and coming up in April, our Madness
Speaker 2: bracket winner will get to decide a topic that we
Speaker 2: will have to draft with that listener.
Speaker 1: Now, am I throwing a wrinkle into this? I mean,
Speaker 1: last time we assessed our brackets, I was close to
Speaker 1: winning the whole damn thing.
Speaker 2: So I win it?
Speaker 1: Then do I just pick the topic?
Speaker 2: I don't think it's gonna be a concer Josh, we'll
Speaker 2: get to that later. Things have changed, Oh, things have
Speaker 2: changed a little bit.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: Film Spottingfamily dot com is where you can learn more.
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Speaker 4: year feeling your personal best? Shop Active by Abercrombie in
Speaker 4: the app, online and in stores. You have a.
Speaker 3: Neurological disorder preventing you from remembering exactly what happened in mine?
Speaker 1: Is that right?
Speaker 7: I've been recording these tapes for my daughter that helps
Speaker 7: keep me from zoning out. This condition of yours will
Speaker 7: slowly eat away at your cognitive capabilities.
Speaker 2: In addition to catching up with some Gene Hackman blind spots. Josh,
Speaker 2: you've been busy watching some other new releases of First Gazer.
Speaker 2: You just heard a little bit of a clip from
Speaker 2: that trailer. It's currently playing in limited release. It's the
Speaker 2: directing debut of Ryan J. Sloane, which might make it
Speaker 2: a good candidate for the Golden Brick Award. Here on
Speaker 2: film spotting neurological disorder a system for recording memories crime thriller,
Speaker 2: mister Sloane doesn't seem to be going out of his
Speaker 2: way to avoid comparisons to Memento, a film I adore,
Speaker 2: might I adore Gazer.
Speaker 1: I like to think you'll appreciate it. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: no doubt that it is leaning heavily on Memento. It
Speaker 1: is the touchstone. I do want to give it a
Speaker 1: nod and consideration for Golden Brick because even beyond that,
Speaker 1: it has enough of its own vision. It definitely has
Speaker 1: enough of its own atmosphere to create something that's you know,
Speaker 1: it's an unnerving lo fi neo noir that that I
Speaker 1: did appreciate. The screenplay written by the star Ariela Mestriami,
Speaker 1: who plays this mother who's basically suffering from this condition,
Speaker 1: and then yeah, it gets wrapped up in a missing
Speaker 1: person case, so everything becomes more complicated for her. There
Speaker 1: nods even you know, brief nods to the Shining, brief
Speaker 1: nods to the Exorcist, brief nods to Coronaberg's video drome.
Speaker 1: It kind of goes a lot of places, but I
Speaker 1: especially appreciated the locations here. This is set in New Jersey,
Speaker 1: but kind of like the off ramp New Jersey from
Speaker 1: the Expressway, a lot of warehouses and you know, convenience
Speaker 1: stores things like that. The sound design is very interesting
Speaker 1: as it's trying to put us in the headspace of Frankie,
Speaker 1: this main character. And I also liked the score, which
Speaker 1: to connect with our top five, the Hackman Top five.
Speaker 1: It's very heavy on the horns and made me think
Speaker 1: of a seventies detective movie, something like Night Moves actually,
Speaker 1: but then what's going on here also projects it into
Speaker 1: this grungy future. So yeah, I think Gayser is worthy
Speaker 1: of Golden Brick consideration and if it's playing near you
Speaker 1: folks should check it out.
Speaker 2: You also saw a film that I have wanted to
Speaker 2: see since hearing about it when it played the Chicago
Speaker 2: Film Festival back in October. It's the directing debut of
Speaker 2: Michael Shannon and stars Judy Greer, Tracy Letts, Alison Pill
Speaker 2: Alexander Scarsguard. Great cast. It's based on a play by
Speaker 2: Chicago playwright Brett Neveau, who, like Shannon, is an ensemble
Speaker 2: member of Chicago's Red Orchid Theater Company. Greer and scars
Speaker 2: Guard played the parents of a school shooter. Seems like
Speaker 2: harrowing stuff, Josh. It's new to theaters, but not new,
Speaker 2: as I said. Played at the Chicago Film Festival last year,
Speaker 2: premiered at Tribeca back in twenty twenty three. What did
Speaker 2: you make of it?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was lucky because it's playing at the Gene
Speaker 1: Sisco Film Center and so they had a preview screening.
Speaker 1: Shannon was there for a Q and A afterwards, and
Speaker 1: it is herowing, but it's really focused on the experience
Speaker 1: of these parents, and Greer gives a very commanding performance
Speaker 1: and quiet way. She's excellent in it. Skysguard has a
Speaker 1: part that's a little could aved or into caricature. Basically,
Speaker 1: this dorkey midwesterner, you know, against type very much. So
Speaker 1: who throws himself into a prayer group at this new
Speaker 1: church to kind of, you know, just escape all of
Speaker 1: the awfulness of their situation. But he finds enough notes
Speaker 1: of conviction to keep them from being a caricature. So
Speaker 1: I think those two performances are very strong. And then
Speaker 1: also their son, he does show up at the end
Speaker 1: of the film, so it's not a spoiler to say that,
Speaker 1: but it's the first time you see him. He's played
Speaker 1: by Nation Hendrickson, you know, a new actor who is
Speaker 1: just incredible in this very long scene. So I'm definitely
Speaker 1: going to keep an eye out for Nation Hendrickson in
Speaker 1: future films, but this one, particularly for the performances Eric LaRue,
Speaker 1: is worth checking out as well.
Speaker 2: Two films, two recommendations. Let's see if we can continue
Speaker 2: the streak up. Next is Holland, directed by Mimi Cave,
Speaker 2: who made twenty twenty two's Fresh Nicole Kidman Stars. You know,
Speaker 2: anytime you read about a character having a seemingly perfect life,
Speaker 2: you know something is gonna go terribly wrong. She lives
Speaker 2: in Holland, Michigan. She's a teacher, and she stumbles onto
Speaker 2: a troubling secret about her husband, who's played by Matthew McFadden.
Speaker 2: She and coworker Gail Garcia Bernal investigate. You know, I
Speaker 2: already have a bias against this movie because the other
Speaker 2: town in the Midwest, I don't know, maybe the only
Speaker 2: other town in the entire country that is known for
Speaker 2: its unique dutchness. Josh is in Iowa. Pella, Iowa. Grew
Speaker 2: up just down the road from Pella. Used to love
Speaker 2: visiting my favorite spot in the world, Yarsma's Bakery. I
Speaker 2: don't know if there's a Yarsma's in Holland. Is there
Speaker 2: a good movie made about Holland?
Speaker 1: I mean, Pela Dowledge to Bulat, that's all. This is rough, unfortunately,
Speaker 1: And yeah, I know, you know, I've been to Holland
Speaker 1: countless times and have friends and you know, colleagues there.
Speaker 1: This doesn't matter at all. Oftentimes I will say accent
Speaker 1: work doesn't matter. I don't care. But I just have
Speaker 1: to note because I know I know Dutch Canadians who
Speaker 1: sort of sound vaguely like the people in this movie.
Speaker 1: I know a lot of characters in the Coen Brothers
Speaker 1: Fargo who sound like the people in this movie. I
Speaker 1: know no one in Alen, Michigan who sounds like this,
Speaker 1: So that's you know, neither here nor there, but was amusing. Ultimately,
Speaker 1: the problem is that this is a very lazy blue
Speaker 1: velvet riff, and it also is nowhere near interesting to
Speaker 1: your point, near as interesting as other Nicole Kidman interrogations
Speaker 1: of perfection, and poor Matthew McFadyen, who I love, you know,
Speaker 1: from Succession and so many other things. He's just he's
Speaker 1: the latest guy unable to satisfy Nicole Kidney two disastrous
Speaker 1: results for the characters and for the movie. I would
Speaker 1: say so, unless you're familiar with Holland and want to
Speaker 1: watch this as a curiosity, a definite skip.
Speaker 2: Okay. I say this with no offense to Matthew McFadden,
Speaker 2: but somehow I believe that more than I believed it
Speaker 2: with Antonio banderis fair enough. Gazer and Eric LaRue are
Speaker 2: currently out in limited release. Holland is available exclusively on
Speaker 2: Prime Video. If you agree or disagree with Josh's takes,
Speaker 2: or maybe if you know people or you grew up
Speaker 2: yourself around Holland, Michigan and you want to vouch for
Speaker 2: the ax at work, please you gotta leave us a voicemail,
Speaker 2: though you got to send us an audio note with
Speaker 2: that accent. You can do that feedback at film spotting
Speaker 2: dot Net. Next week on the show, it's your turn
Speaker 2: to skip town. Josh. You will be in Boulder, Colorado
Speaker 2: for a return to Ebert interrupt Us and I think
Speaker 2: to secure housing for Sundance twenty twenty seven. Good luck
Speaker 2: with that, you joke.
Speaker 1: But yeah, with Sundance moving to Boulder, I may have
Speaker 1: a few things in the works. Actually, Adam, thanks to
Speaker 1: thanks to knowing some folks from the last number of years,
Speaker 1: going to Boulder for Ebert interrupt Us, but it is
Speaker 1: right around the corner. April seven through ten, we are
Speaker 1: doing the Wizard of Oz, not only because it's a
Speaker 1: great movie, but because Cynthia Arrivo is going to give
Speaker 1: the keynote for the Conference on World Affairs, which is
Speaker 1: what Ebert interrupt Us is a part of. So would
Speaker 1: love to see film Spotting listeners there. We're gonna watch
Speaker 1: Wizard of Oz day one, then spend three days working
Speaker 1: through it. We're also having a film spotting meet up
Speaker 1: on Thursday, April ten. They're in Boulder. It's going to
Speaker 1: be at a new location, Boulder Social and you'll get
Speaker 1: all the details. You can also RSVP via the link
Speaker 1: in the show notes. If you are a film Spotting
Speaker 1: family member, just check that meetups channel in our discord
Speaker 1: and you'll find details there as well.
Speaker 2: I can't wait to hear all about how it goes.
Speaker 2: I know that you've been doing some homework for this,
Speaker 2: reading the book that The Wizard of Oz is based on,
Speaker 2: which is wonderful.
Speaker 1: I got to say, I don't know why I never
Speaker 1: read it, especially because I appreciate children's literature a lot,
Speaker 1: but this has been a delightful read. And yeah, part
Speaker 1: of the last minute cramming I'm doing for next week.
Speaker 2: Joining me next week filling in for Josh will be
Speaker 2: the one, the only Michael Phillips. And before I get
Speaker 2: to our programming, I want to take this opportunity to
Speaker 2: say thank you to our longtime production assistant Veronica Phillips.
Speaker 2: You have heard her name at the end of our
Speaker 2: show for over two years, and it really is one
Speaker 2: of those time as of flat circle things where with
Speaker 2: our pas, we typically try to have them on board
Speaker 2: for a year or so and then we cut them
Speaker 2: loose and we try to get some new blood in there.
Speaker 2: And I went back and looked at the calendar. At
Speaker 2: some point I was like, Veronica has been doing this
Speaker 2: for two years and she she never raised a fuss,
Speaker 2: always gave us great ideas for top fives and suggestions
Speaker 2: when we asked her to start forming lists for us
Speaker 2: or come up with ideas, and she was responsible for
Speaker 2: keeping the website updated. And we have finally said, Veronica,
Speaker 2: you can you can depart. You can go out into
Speaker 2: the world and do other film related work.
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, you know, if it isn't broke, go
Speaker 1: fix it. Isn't that? Is that what they say? So
Speaker 1: Veronica just kept doing great work and we were happy
Speaker 1: to have her, but yeah, probably time to let her
Speaker 1: pursue other things. But thank you so much, Veronica for
Speaker 1: everything you did all this time.
Speaker 2: Indeed, thank you, and we want to welcome our new
Speaker 2: production assistant. Let me see if I can get this right,
Speaker 2: Sophie kempin Ower Kempinar, Sophie Kempinar, Josh.
Speaker 1: Are you sure it's not pronounced empirepentire? I have heard
Speaker 1: a lot of to get that one right. I know
Speaker 1: I've heard a lot.
Speaker 2: Of butcherings over the years, but I think I can
Speaker 2: say it correctly. Yeah, NEPO baby, Sophie kempenar and she
Speaker 2: calls herself that so she won't take too much offense.
Speaker 2: She is now on board as the film spotting pa
Speaker 2: and Josh it's already paying off. I'm gonna say she's
Speaker 2: done good work through a couple of weeks, not only
Speaker 2: with the website. Without her updating the Madness pages, Josh,
Speaker 2: it would not have been starting. Each round, would have
Speaker 2: been behind by hours. Let me just say that really.
Speaker 1: Unfair of you to throw her in.
Speaker 2: I know, during the.
Speaker 1: Weeks of Madness.
Speaker 2: That's right, that's what she started. She starts in March
Speaker 2: when film Spotting Madness is hitting its apex. And when
Speaker 2: we were on our vacation just a few weeks ago,
Speaker 2: my wife and I and Sophie, we met her. She's
Speaker 2: studying abroad. We were sitting at a cafe or something
Speaker 2: or at dinner and I said, you know, Michael's going
Speaker 2: to be filling in, and we don't really have a
Speaker 2: topic for this show. It seems like a good sacred
Speaker 2: cow option week. I throughout the idea of pride and Prejudice,
Speaker 2: knowing that she would be fully on board and want
Speaker 2: us to do that because she loves that film. If
Speaker 2: it's not in her letterbox top four, it's number five. Okay,
Speaker 2: that's how much she loves this film. And she gives
Speaker 2: me grief for the fact that when it was reviewed
Speaker 2: on Film Spotting back in two thousand and five when
Speaker 2: it was called Cinecast, Sam adored it and gave it
Speaker 2: five stars. I gave it a pass at three stars,
Speaker 2: even though Joe Wright would come along a few years
Speaker 2: later with Atonement and I would swoon for that film.
Speaker 2: So I've long felt like I owed Pride and Prejudice
Speaker 2: five a revisit, and since it is five, it's its
Speaker 2: twentieth anniversary. So I said, why not, let's do it.
Speaker 2: Let's talk about Pride and Prejudice. And I said, Sophie,
Speaker 2: what's a good You've seen this film a million times.
Speaker 2: What's a good top five for Michael Knight to do
Speaker 2: with it? And right off the tip of her tongue,
Speaker 2: she said, rain scenes. And it's kind of a miracle.
Speaker 2: We've never done rain scenes in the twenty year history
Speaker 2: of this show. But I don't think we have love it.
Speaker 1: I love specific top five, so that will be a
Speaker 1: good one. I do hope you have had this conversation
Speaker 1: with her Adam though that not every Top five can
Speaker 1: connect to pride and prejudice or before Sunrise right.
Speaker 2: Actually, I'm not sure she's aware of that. Okay, that'll
Speaker 2: be a tough conversation to have with our new PA.
Speaker 2: Also next week, finally, I know a few people out
Speaker 2: there have been waiting for it some ethys talk because
Speaker 2: I have seen that Baseball movie Michael I know has
Speaker 2: as well and has recommended it in the Chicago Tribune.
Speaker 2: And yes, it will be the film Spotting Madness Elite eight.
Speaker 2: So a lot to get to next week on the
Speaker 2: Show with Michael Phillips. If you'd like to keep up
Speaker 2: to date on future show plans, visit Filmspotting dot Net
Speaker 2: slash episodes.
Speaker 1: Quick note about our sister podcast, The Next Picture Show,
Speaker 1: looking at Cinema's present via its past. They have a
Speaker 1: new pairing out Steven Soderberg's Wonderful Black Bag. They're looking
Speaker 1: at in the context of nineteen thirty four's The Thin
Speaker 1: Man with William Powell and Myrna Lloyd, and this per
Speaker 1: perfect timing for me. I think it was just in
Speaker 1: the last year or so that I watched The Thin
Speaker 1: Man for the first time and have sense. Watched the
Speaker 1: second film in that series, of course, absolutely loved it,
Speaker 1: so I am primed. I'm actually midway through their conversation
Speaker 1: about the Thin Man. When I saw it roll in,
Speaker 1: I knew I had to dive in right away, So
Speaker 1: it didn't come to mind when I was watching Black
Speaker 1: Bag about that series. But makes a ton of sense
Speaker 1: to pair these two.
Speaker 2: I'm so disappointed because it does seem like such an
Speaker 2: inspired pairing that I'd love to listen to. But I
Speaker 2: still haven't had a chance to see Black Bag.
Speaker 1: Come on, man, you gotta get on it killing me.
Speaker 1: New episodes of the Next Picture Show drop every Tuesday
Speaker 1: and you can find them wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: This lasting, This is madness. This is absolute madness.
Speaker 6: This is madness, madness, madness.
Speaker 1: But this is absolute madness. I'm massisson.
Speaker 2: Why should you build such a thing?
Speaker 1: Mad news?
Speaker 2: Us spot off and this is film spotting Madness. Our
Speaker 2: annual bracket style movie elimination tournament. Sixty four movies. Only
Speaker 2: one survives. This year. We are covering the best films
Speaker 2: of the twenty first century. So far, we have your
Speaker 2: Round two results and the Sweet sixteen matchups. A reminder
Speaker 2: the Sweet sixteen. Polls are open right now. Vote before
Speaker 2: you forget. Open it on your phone, open it on
Speaker 2: your computer, however you're listening. Vote at filmspotting dot net
Speaker 2: slash Madness Round two. Josh meant thirty two films sixteen contests.
Speaker 2: We will not go through them all, but we did
Speaker 2: want to highlight a few close ones, a few upsets,
Speaker 2: maybe a few surprises along the way. Here are the
Speaker 2: ones that weren't close. I'll read these off to you, Josh,
Speaker 2: and then you can get into the upsets, the movies
Speaker 2: that had a pretty wide margin of victory, and the
Speaker 2: films that hit at least seventy percent or more of
Speaker 2: the vote total, winning seventy six percent to twenty four percent,
Speaker 2: it was not tough for mad Max's Fury Road to
Speaker 2: take down. Christopher Nolan's Oppenheimer Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless
Speaker 2: Mind also easily defeated Edgar Wright's Shot of the Dead
Speaker 2: by that margin, seventy four percent to twenty six percent.
Speaker 2: No Country for Old Men beats Guillermo del Toro's Pans Labyrinth,
Speaker 2: and there goes your beloved Phantom thread Pta out of
Speaker 2: the tournament, officially at the hands of Parasite. These three
Speaker 2: all were seventy one to twenty nine percent victories. There
Speaker 2: will be Blood the number one overall seed over Denis
Speaker 2: Villeneuve's Arrival, David Lynch and Mulholland Drive still Alive, beating
Speaker 2: Celine Siama's Portrait of Lady on Fire. I thought that
Speaker 2: one might be tough to predict, might be pretty close.
Speaker 2: I was wrong, like I fear I have been or
Speaker 2: will be for much of this year's addition to film
Speaker 2: spotting Madness. And how about this, Christopher Nolan also out
Speaker 2: of the tournament, Fellowship of the Ring crushed in her stuff.
Speaker 1: Wow? Yeah, really, cow, that's that's a shocker to me.
Speaker 1: All Right, we have some upsets generally here, Royal Tenenbaums
Speaker 1: over Lost in Translation, and that's I mean, these were
Speaker 1: ranked pretty closely right.
Speaker 2: In the sixteen Yeah, and if you had asked, I'll say,
Speaker 2: of course, it's easy for me to say now. But
Speaker 2: if you asked myself and Sam, I'm pretty sure we
Speaker 2: both predicted Royal ten and Bumps to beat Lost in Translation.
Speaker 2: So we knew this one was close technically an upset,
Speaker 2: but we had a feeling Wes Anderson might advance.
Speaker 1: And the percentages here sixty four percent for ten and
Speaker 1: Baums thirty six percent for lost in translation. How about
Speaker 1: Alfonso Quran's Children of Men versus Nolan's The Dark Knight. Now,
Speaker 1: these both had decisive first round wins. Children of Men
Speaker 1: one over Jonathan Glazers under the Skin and Dark Knight
Speaker 1: beat What We Do in the Shadows. This one was
Speaker 1: pretty close, fifty two percent to forty eight percent, and
Speaker 1: it was Children of Men beating The Dark Knight. So,
Speaker 1: as you said, Adam Nolan's out. He started with four
Speaker 1: films in this tournament. All four made it to the
Speaker 1: second round, so he had interstellar Memento Oppenheimer, The Dark Knight,
Speaker 1: and now all four are out.
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, and it was close. Children of Men's in
Speaker 2: nineteen seed Dark Knight was the fourteenth seed. So again
Speaker 2: technically an upset, but not a shock that Children of
Speaker 2: Men won, as you noted, very close. But here we are.
Speaker 2: There's been some discussions amongst the selection committee about whether
Speaker 2: or not we did Christopher Nolan wrong. It's hard to
Speaker 2: say we did when he had four films in the tournament.
Speaker 2: But here we are after the second round, Josh, and
Speaker 2: none of these films are alive.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean if he had four shots at it, right,
Speaker 1: think that's pretty pretty generous.
Speaker 2: Speaking of close victories, here Inglorious Bastards and Spirited Away
Speaker 2: that was only fifty six percent to forty four percent.
Speaker 2: But Miyazaki the twelve seed does defeat Quentin Tarantino and
Speaker 2: his twenty first seeded film. Oh, this one hurts, and
Speaker 2: it hurt to vote in Before Sunset, Richard Linklater's Before
Speaker 2: Sunset versus The Grand Budapest Hotel. Link Later was the
Speaker 2: eighteen seed. Wes Anderson's film was the fifteenth seed, and
Speaker 2: looking at this vote total, Josh over the course of
Speaker 2: the past week, Sunset it was very tight, but Sunset
Speaker 2: was in the lead, and at the end Wes Anderson
Speaker 2: took it fifty three to forty seven percent.
Speaker 1: That's a close one.
Speaker 2: Wes Anderson is one of two directors with two films
Speaker 2: in the Sweet sixteen. There's no Christopher Nolan, but there
Speaker 2: are two Anderson's, and there are two David Fincher's Zodiac
Speaker 2: and The Social Network. And here it is Moonlight versus
Speaker 2: Ex Makina. Two directing breakthroughs. Barry Jenkins Best Picture winner,
Speaker 2: Alex Garland's directing debut Our Cinderella, or now we call
Speaker 2: it Cindereva, because she's got the Glass Slipper and she's advancing.
Speaker 2: And if we know anything about Ava, we know that
Speaker 2: she will do anything to win. She's going to survive.
Speaker 1: And it she took out Moonlight.
Speaker 2: She took Light out Moonlight Josh by something like twenty
Speaker 2: eight votes. It was that close.
Speaker 1: She's scarier than I even thought.
Speaker 2: But she's terrifying and she advances that film from Alex
Speaker 2: Garland moves on. It is truly our Cinderella, the forty
Speaker 2: first seed moving on into the Sweet sixteen.
Speaker 5: So wow.
Speaker 2: We always look back at this point, the selection committee,
Speaker 2: myself Sam, we wonder what we might have done differently,
Speaker 2: how we're doing so far. Of course, the seeding can
Speaker 2: influence results, because the higher the seed, thequote unquote easier
Speaker 2: it should be for them to advance. But you also
Speaker 2: wonder if how things proceed validates your predictions, validates how
Speaker 2: you thought it would play out. And if you look
Speaker 2: at the Sweet sixteen, it is comprised of fourteen films
Speaker 2: that were among the Top sixteen, and the top thirteen
Speaker 2: seeds all advanced to the Sweet sixteen. So I think
Speaker 2: fourteen and fifteen are out and eighteen and nineteen are in.
Speaker 2: So good on the selection committee, or did we I
Speaker 2: suppose rig it in favor of those films, depends on
Speaker 2: your perspective. We are at the Sweet sixteen though. That
Speaker 2: means there's only eight matchups, Josh, and that means we
Speaker 2: can take them one by one. So let's do our
Speaker 2: usual routine. Give me, as I give you the title,
Speaker 2: tell me is it an easy one for you? Is
Speaker 2: it a tough one for you? Or is it a
Speaker 2: tough one to predict? Okay, first up, there will be blood.
Speaker 2: I think I said Paul Thomas A. Anderson was out.
Speaker 2: Paul Thomas Anderson is not out. Phantom Thread is out,
Speaker 2: the Master is out. There will be blood very much alive.
Speaker 2: Is the number one seed PT Anderson versus Wes Anderson
Speaker 2: the Royal Tenant bombs.
Speaker 1: Not easy, But I'm also not going to lose a
Speaker 1: ton of sleep over it, and I'm going ten and
Speaker 1: bombs personally me. I, you know, I like Phantom Thread
Speaker 1: is the one I was, my heart was attached to,
Speaker 1: and now that that's been ripped out, I'm gonna go
Speaker 1: with my west heart and follow him, so it's fun.
Speaker 2: This one is definitely tough. If you asked me to
Speaker 2: rank these two filmmakers, I think I would tend to
Speaker 2: say I'm more of a Paul Thomas Anderson fan than
Speaker 2: I am a Wes Anderson fan. And yet, maybe because
Speaker 2: of the preparation for this show and rewatching some scenes
Speaker 2: with Gene Hackman, The Royal Tenibombs is just a movie
Speaker 2: that means.
Speaker 1: More to me, just definitely recent and see bias coming
Speaker 1: into play.
Speaker 2: I love the Royal, I love there will be blood,
Speaker 2: but I really love The Royal ten and Bombs. It's
Speaker 2: my number one Anderson and for that reason, Wes Anderson
Speaker 2: I should specify. Of course, that's why I have it advancing.
Speaker 2: But it was really, really, really hard.
Speaker 1: I'll Master, You're number one pta the Master.
Speaker 2: It might actually be there will be blood. If I
Speaker 2: am being honest, I might have that lot. It's between
Speaker 2: the Master and there will be blood. That top spot
Speaker 2: so very difficult. Don't feel good about it, but I'm
Speaker 2: going with ten and Bombs as well. I think this
Speaker 2: one is incredibly hard. Two films about the dangers of
Speaker 2: technology Josh in The Sweet Sixteen, The Social Network versus
Speaker 2: our Cinderella two Robots Zuckerberg Zuckerberg versus Ava. How are
Speaker 2: you feeling about this one?
Speaker 1: Well, now that I'm doubly terrified of Ava, I will
Speaker 1: never vote against her again, right, But I also will
Speaker 1: vote for Xmokana because solely because I need I owe
Speaker 1: Social network a revisit. I don't think i've seen it
Speaker 1: since it came out, and my reservation at the time,
Speaker 1: though I was positive on it very much so for
Speaker 1: many reasons, but I remember being disappointed because, you know,
Speaker 1: I felt like it didn't have that much to say
Speaker 1: about social networking, and I wonder if I just missed
Speaker 1: what it had to say about it, and if a
Speaker 1: revisit might make me reconsider, But especially when it's paired
Speaker 1: up against something as prescient and you know, on topic
Speaker 1: in a way that I was hoping for, and that
Speaker 1: it pulled it through. On that end, I think I
Speaker 1: will still go with Xmokana.
Speaker 2: I know that you like to decide these matchups sometimes
Speaker 2: based on were they head to head previously or did
Speaker 2: you have to consider them for other lists, and which
Speaker 2: one did you rank higher. And it turns out that
Speaker 2: back in twenty twenty, when we did our top five,
Speaker 2: or maybe it was actually our top twenty films of
Speaker 2: the past decade. So from twenty ten to twenty nineteen,
Speaker 2: I did not put X Machina in my top twenty,
Speaker 2: even though I could see it fitting there. I could
Speaker 2: definitely see it fitting there. I did have the Social
Speaker 2: Network on that top twenty, and that was based on
Speaker 2: my rewatch of that film, Like you really liked it
Speaker 2: the first time, gave it a very positive review on
Speaker 2: the show. The second time, I felt even more. Why
Speaker 2: it's a movie, people kind of go crazy for that.
Speaker 2: It's a film people revere and I love Fincher as well,
Speaker 2: So even though it's really tough in recency bias here
Speaker 2: would put X Machina as the more likely candidate for me,
Speaker 2: I am going to default to what I ranked back
Speaker 2: in twenty twenty and give it to the Social.
Speaker 1: Network, all right, look out for EVA.
Speaker 2: I know, I'm scared mad Max Fury Road versus here's
Speaker 2: Fincher again, Zodiac.
Speaker 1: Yeah, another Fincher. I need to revisit, even though I
Speaker 1: like this even more than Social Network at the time,
Speaker 1: but come on, it's mad Max furyre Out.
Speaker 2: I know, and as much as I love Fincher and Zodiac,
Speaker 2: which I think I have is my number three Fincher
Speaker 2: and I do love Fincher, so three is very very high.
Speaker 2: I think I'm going mad Max. No Country for Old
Speaker 2: Men versus Spirited Away. This one for me is easy.
Speaker 2: As much as I appreciate Miyazaki and that film, I'm
Speaker 2: not going against another serial killer, not the Zodiac killer,
Speaker 2: but the killer played by Anton Shagor in that great film.
Speaker 1: So this was my hardest when I looked at what
Speaker 1: the pairings were, what the matchups were, and I have
Speaker 1: you know, if you look at your filmmaker rankings, it
Speaker 1: is my number five Miyazaki versus my number two Cohens.
Speaker 1: But this did make me ask think of something I
Speaker 1: want to ask you, And maybe I've asked this in
Speaker 1: previous Madness tournaments. But films that are not in the
Speaker 1: tournament okay, didn't make selection, committee didn't include them, but
Speaker 1: they're eligible, could have been in. Have they all been
Speaker 1: sent to the incinerator?
Speaker 2: Because let's not think about it.
Speaker 1: If not, I'm going to vote No Country and then
Speaker 1: console myself by watching twenty twenty three's The Boy and
Speaker 1: the Heron, which I actually like better. So just tell me,
Speaker 1: I can do that. You can do that, okay, can
Speaker 1: I'm voting No Country.
Speaker 2: Mulholland Drive, David Lynch's two thousand and one film versus
Speaker 2: the other Wes Anderson movie, the Grand Budapest Hotel. Is
Speaker 2: this an obvious one you're going with Wes Anderson.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is, say the caveat in you know, just
Speaker 1: rewatching Twin Peaks for the first time, the first run
Speaker 1: of the series, and you know, reading more about Lynch
Speaker 1: and thinking more about Lynch, I am positive, again similar
Speaker 1: to Zodiac, similar to Social Network. I appreciated Mohan Drive
Speaker 1: when it came out. I am positive I would get
Speaker 1: so much more out of it if I watch it now.
Speaker 1: So the essential question is would I get enough out
Speaker 1: of it to vote against the Grand Budapest Hotel. And
Speaker 1: I don't just think, yeah it is, But I also think,
Speaker 1: as much as my appreciation for Lynch has grown, it's
Speaker 1: sort of more the It's more an appreciation for others,
Speaker 1: deep emotional attachment and appreciation. It's like I get it,
Speaker 1: and I get what they're getting, whereas Grand Budapest Wes Anderson,
Speaker 1: I just get it. And so you know, it would
Speaker 1: be a bad faith vote to jump for Mulholland on
Speaker 1: my part at this point over Grand Budapest Hotel.
Speaker 2: So it took me a little while to fully get
Speaker 2: the Grand Budapest Hotel. But now that I do, I
Speaker 2: love it and it doesn't make me feel good at
Speaker 2: all to say I still love Mulholland Drive so much
Speaker 2: that it wasn't an incredibly tough choice for me. But
Speaker 2: I'm disappointed. I've disappointed that I had to vote against
Speaker 2: a film that I truly have come to really love
Speaker 2: now in that Wes Anderson movie. So I'm still going
Speaker 2: mull Holland Drive, and that might also be wishful thinking
Speaker 2: on my part because my bracket challenge depends wholly on
Speaker 2: mulhalland Drive still advancing. I think this is the only
Speaker 2: one for me that is truly hard to predict. As well, Josh,
Speaker 2: I think the Grand Budapest really has a shot. I
Speaker 2: think it could beat mulhalland Drive despite mulhalland Drive being
Speaker 2: the number three overall seed. I think in the tournament.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it seems like it's it's gathering steam.
Speaker 1: It's doing well.
Speaker 2: So get Out is up against the higher seeded in
Speaker 2: the mood for Love, And you've used the logic so
Speaker 2: far throughout this tournament that in the Mood for Love
Speaker 2: is gonna get your vote until it's up against another
Speaker 2: movie that you put in your top ten of all
Speaker 2: time back in twenty twenty two. Get Out, I don't
Speaker 2: think is on the so I'm assuming you're voting for
Speaker 2: wankar Wi.
Speaker 1: It is, But let me make a case for get
Speaker 1: Out for those people who are, you know, torn here
Speaker 1: in a way, get Out is the right title for
Speaker 1: this particular tournament. So again, this was where we talk
Speaker 1: about are we looking for movies that represent an era?
Speaker 1: You reference that list we did in twenty twenty about,
Speaker 1: you know, the best films of the last ten years
Speaker 1: or whatever it was. I know I weighed mine more
Speaker 1: towards titles that represented what happened in those ten years,
Speaker 1: because we live those ten years, and this is somewhat similar.
Speaker 1: So you could make an argument for get Out being
Speaker 1: a movie that better represents this century so far. But
Speaker 1: you know what, for me, in the Mood for Love
Speaker 1: represents all the centuries we've ever had. So that's my vote.
Speaker 2: I think that's well said. I did just glance at
Speaker 2: the voting as we're recording this. We're only a couple
Speaker 2: hours into voting, so maybe one hundred or so votes
Speaker 2: in so far, and the one I thought would be
Speaker 2: the toughest to predict, the Grand Budafest Hotel versus Ball
Speaker 2: Hall and Drive, that's separated by two votes. Josh, and
Speaker 2: the others are within ten. So again very early. But
Speaker 2: some of these, like in the Mood for Love and
Speaker 2: Get Out, are close right now. Two more to share
Speaker 2: with you, Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind versus Children
Speaker 2: of Men. I love children men, but a relatively easy
Speaker 2: pick for me to go. Eternal Sunshine.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's where my heart wants to go. But here
Speaker 1: I'm going to air on the side of timeliness. As
Speaker 1: we've talked about, like this is such a relevant movie
Speaker 1: right now.
Speaker 2: Just isn't timeless? Love and heartbreak aren't timeless, Josh. That's
Speaker 2: what in the Mood for Love was for. So I'm
Speaker 2: taking care of that need now. I'm going with Children
Speaker 2: of Men. Speaking of timeliness, parasite, oh gosh, and the
Speaker 2: enduring saga that is lived throughout decades and will surely
Speaker 2: go on for centuries. Josh and the Lord of the Rings,
Speaker 2: the Fellowship of the Ring easy choice for me, and
Speaker 2: I do really like the Fellowship of the Ring, but
Speaker 2: I like Parasite better.
Speaker 1: I mean, this is can we start calling these the
Speaker 1: nonsense matchup? I'm still trying to think of a term
Speaker 1: where it's such different movies you can't conceive of why
Speaker 1: they're paired against each other. This is our nonsense matchup,
Speaker 1: and I get the other according to your logic, I
Speaker 1: get the other Lord of the Rings films the other two.
Speaker 1: So because I don't think they made the tournament, right,
Speaker 1: they haven't been knocked out. You guys went with Fellowship.
Speaker 2: Yeah, they weren't voted out. We just chose to because
Speaker 2: we knew, based on previous Madness voting that that would
Speaker 2: be the winner between three.
Speaker 1: Well, then I'm going Parasite because I'll just watch two
Speaker 1: Towers in return.
Speaker 2: Again, all of your arbitrary reasoning. I love it. You
Speaker 2: can vote in those Madness sweet sixteen poles now Folls
Speaker 2: closed Tuesday April eighth. Tuesday April eighth at five pm
Speaker 2: Central time. All you need to know is that you
Speaker 2: should visit filmspotting dot net slash madness And for those
Speaker 2: of you who submitted brackets in our prediction challenge. You
Speaker 2: can go there to view the bracket and see how
Speaker 2: you're doing. Over eight hundred and twenty brackets, the most
Speaker 2: we've ever received as part of a film spotting Madness
Speaker 2: Prediction Challenge and at the top of the leader board. Josh,
Speaker 2: I'm just going to say this. If Ricky Kendall in
Speaker 2: the UK wins for the second year in a row,
Speaker 2: the selection committee will be conducting a proper investigation. So
Speaker 2: we will be heading across the pond and we will
Speaker 2: be looking into whatever is going on here. Because Ricky,
Speaker 2: he has this bracket name Uneasy Lies the head that
Speaker 2: wears the crown. He was the winner of last year's
Speaker 2: Madness Best of the nineteen fifties. He told us on
Speaker 2: the show he drafted with us that he had no strategy,
Speaker 2: he was kind of just winging it, and yet here
Speaker 2: he is in first place.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think this is top priority forget top five
Speaker 1: ideas forget updating the website. You send Pa Sophie, who's
Speaker 1: over there.
Speaker 2: She's actually in the UK.
Speaker 1: She is boots on the ground and she needs to
Speaker 1: get to the bottom of this.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, So Ricky right now is in first place
Speaker 2: with a score of sixty two and points go up
Speaker 2: each round, so that score will get bigger as we
Speaker 2: get deeper into the tournament picks potential. The reason why
Speaker 2: Ricky's in first place is he has the potential in
Speaker 2: terms of the films that are still alive to get
Speaker 2: sixty two of the choices correct. That's why he's in
Speaker 2: first place, just ahead of how about this film spotting
Speaker 2: family member Ross Bratton, Oh, come country for old Ross
Speaker 2: is the bracket sixty two is the score for Ross
Speaker 2: picks potential, though slightly behind at sixty one, but can
Speaker 2: absolutely want this thing. And then another familiar name mentioned
Speaker 2: him last week, still in that top three, Oscary Vaneo
Speaker 2: in Finland. My predictions are going to make me almost famous.
Speaker 2: They might, They might. Oscary undred and eighty eight points
Speaker 2: and a sixty one picks potential number, so twenty eight points.
Speaker 2: That means fourteen of sixteen correct for Oscary in round
Speaker 2: two after getting all of the picks correct in round one.
Speaker 2: Speaking of all the picks correct, Ross was the only
Speaker 2: one of those three, Josh, and maybe the only one
Speaker 2: out of the entire tournament. I didn't thoroughly look who
Speaker 2: got all sixteen Round two matchups right, Wow, called them all. Yeah,
Speaker 2: Ricky got fifteen.
Speaker 1: I fully endorse out of the top three that two
Speaker 1: of them are non Americans. I think we're doing something
Speaker 1: yes here with film Spotty Madness.
Speaker 2: And that's if we're trying to do something for international
Speaker 2: relations here representing the United States. Congrats to all of
Speaker 2: our top finishers so far. We will see how it
Speaker 2: plays out. We'll see who gets that limited edition Film
Speaker 2: spotting Fest poster signed by Coganata and Ryan Johnson, and
Speaker 2: who gets to draft with us, the topic being the
Speaker 2: film related subject of their choice. Okay, do we have
Speaker 2: to talk about the internal bracket?
Speaker 1: Well, I didn't hear my name, so I'm a little
Speaker 1: confused here among the top three.
Speaker 2: Well, let's see how it comes out. Josh I remain
Speaker 2: in last place. I thought I was doing so well.
Speaker 2: I'm up from one hundred and forty fifth to being
Speaker 2: tied for ninety seventh. I got thirteen of sixteen right.
Speaker 2: In round two, I incorrectly picked The Dark Knight over
Speaker 2: Children of Men. I incorrectly picked tarantinover Miyazaki, and I
Speaker 2: incorrectly picked Moonlight over her not X Makta. I thought
Speaker 2: X Makota would already be out by now, so I'm
Speaker 2: up to ninety seventh, but I'm still decidedly in last place. Josh,
Speaker 2: you took a little bit of a tumble again eight
Speaker 2: hundred and twenty five brackets, so we should probably feel
Speaker 2: pretty good. But you are now tied for fifty fifth.
Speaker 1: Oh, after being what second? I was second? Right?
Speaker 2: Maybe because the second or fourth overall you were doing
Speaker 2: very well, but you are now tied for fifty fifth.
Speaker 2: You only got twelve of the sixteen, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, as you were reading those results, I was well,
Speaker 1: I expressed my surprise at a handful of them, which
Speaker 1: spoke to my prediction bracket, I think.
Speaker 2: Yeah, you also incorrectly picked the Dark Knight over Children
Speaker 2: of Men. You also thought Moonlight would beat ex Machina.
Speaker 2: The Tree of Life did not defeat Zodiac, nor did
Speaker 2: inside Lewin Davis take down in the mood for love
Speaker 2: that one could hurt you.
Speaker 1: Josh. Yeah, see, and that's was the Adam pick. I
Speaker 1: kind of learned my I kind of learned my lesson
Speaker 1: the Tree and the Tree of Door. Me, why did
Speaker 1: I pick the Tree of Life? That was a heart pick? That? Wow? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Well yeah, picking up strategy each year. One of these years,
Speaker 1: I'll learn by one.
Speaker 2: Of these years. Okay, Mike Marrigan, he's in second place
Speaker 2: the film Spotting Madness Godfather thirteen of sixteen, right, he's
Speaker 2: in six teenth place. Not bad, did incorrectly pick Inglorious
Speaker 2: Bastards over Spirited Away before Sunset over Grand Budapest and
Speaker 2: The Dark Knight over Children of Men. But Josh supplanting you,
Speaker 2: and he was already high on the list to begin with,
Speaker 2: maybe even tied with you. I can't remember where we
Speaker 2: stood last week, but Sam was doing very well, and
Speaker 2: Sam continues to do very well fifteen of sixteen.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 2: In round two, Sam is tied for fourth.
Speaker 1: Holy wow. Forth overall, that's the best showing among the
Speaker 1: three of us this far into the tournament.
Speaker 2: Ever, Yeah, his only misstep in round two was picking
Speaker 2: her not ex Makna, but her over Moonlight. So Sam
Speaker 2: also has a chance to contend. And we encourage you
Speaker 2: one more time to go look at the round two
Speaker 2: full results and devote in the Sweet sixteen polls over
Speaker 2: at filmspotting dot net slash Madness.
Speaker 8: I'll tell you one thing, though, you got more grit,
Speaker 8: fire and guts than any woman I've ever met.
Speaker 1: What? What are you smiling about? Nothing? What's the funny? Nothing?
Speaker 1: These little expressions of yours.
Speaker 8: I don't know what you're talking about, but I'll take
Speaker 8: it as a compliment.
Speaker 1: You're true blue, Ethyl, you really are.
Speaker 2: We get back into our top five Gene Hackman scenes
Speaker 2: with that clip from The Royal Tenebaum's Hackman's Royal with
Speaker 2: Angelica Houston's ethel. We have made six picks so far,
Speaker 2: three each, Josh, we have two more left. The Royal
Speaker 2: Tenebombs has not come up until now. Surely we didn't
Speaker 2: overlook this film in this performance when considering our top
Speaker 2: five Gene Hackman scenes.
Speaker 1: Right, of course not. It's at number two, actually not
Speaker 1: number one. And okay, this was a journey for me,
Speaker 1: so bear with me. Bear with me, Adam, even though
Speaker 1: it's in the number two slot, and this is the
Speaker 1: pick I agonized over the most. It's the one I
Speaker 1: saved for last when putting my notes together, and I
Speaker 1: almost went with over when I logged Royal Tenenbaums on
Speaker 1: LETTERBROCKX my recent rewatch for this list. Eddie Allen chimed
Speaker 1: in with a comment and basically said, time for a
Speaker 1: cheat it's every time Hackman is on screen. Yeah right,
Speaker 1: It's so true. Every line reading he gets in this
Speaker 1: movie is a gem. And trying to whittle my options down,
Speaker 1: the only thing I could do was again this was
Speaker 1: later in all my homework, all my watching, all I
Speaker 1: could do was watch Royal Tenenbaums again through this Hackman
Speaker 1: Rooster lens and think about what scenes captured this quality.
Speaker 1: And it really struck me that ten in Boums written
Speaker 1: by Wes Anderson and Owen Wilson. From that title all
Speaker 1: the way down, you could see this movie as a
Speaker 1: tribute to Hackman's career of cocksure, self deluded, self inflated characters.
Speaker 1: I mean, Royal tenenbaum Is. He's a gentler little Bill
Speaker 1: In some ways, he's a more refined Harry Moseby. He's
Speaker 1: very much a variation on my number one pick, which
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna spoil here. So watching ten and Bounds
Speaker 1: through this lens, I narrowed it down to three three saints,
Speaker 1: And I'm just gonna give you a line for my
Speaker 1: two runners up so we can move along here. Call
Speaker 1: me Pappy. I know I'm gonna be the bad guy
Speaker 1: on this one. Those were my runners up could have
Speaker 1: easily gone with either one, but instead I went with
Speaker 1: another scene with Angelica Houston's Ethelene and it's Royals cancer confession. Yeah,
Speaker 1: in a ploy to move back into their home?
Speaker 2: Where is the doctor?
Speaker 8: Just wait a second now, Okay, listen, I'm not dying,
Speaker 8: but I need some time a month or so. Okay,
Speaker 8: I want to I want us to.
Speaker 1: Damn ethol, are you crazy? Maybe I am dying. So
Speaker 1: we've mentioned a couple of times doing this. List Adam
Speaker 1: about you know. The audio is good, the line delivery
Speaker 1: is good, but the physicality the gestures are equally important.
Speaker 1: So track down the scene and watch it beyond listening
Speaker 1: to it, because there are two bits of physical performance here.
Speaker 1: One is when Ethlene turns around after he says he's
Speaker 1: dying and approaches him to demand what are you talking about?
Speaker 1: He flinches, he like, he steps back, like she's gonna
Speaker 1: throw a punch at him. And the genius of it
Speaker 1: is not that she's being aggressive. It speaks more to
Speaker 1: her to his guilt than her aggression. Right, he already
Speaker 1: knows he's he's deserving of whatever is coming. Right then,
Speaker 1: after she breaks down in tears about it, I love
Speaker 1: how Royal looks around to see if anyone is watching why,
Speaker 1: because he's committing a crime. He's guilty, and he's got like,
Speaker 1: who's are there? Cops? Are the emotional cops around? Are
Speaker 1: the psychological cops seeing this? At the same time, there
Speaker 1: is so much tenderness to that little moment there on
Speaker 1: Royal's part. He's genuinely taken aback by her reaction, by
Speaker 1: the love that she's still expressing for him. He's sorry
Speaker 1: for her. And yet again, I mean, Hackman is just
Speaker 1: you know, doing so many backflips in these scenes. Yet again,
Speaker 1: this is where he could have committed to the lie,
Speaker 1: but he retracts it right and he decides, Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: going to drop this, and then another backflip lunging back
Speaker 1: in because what he still hasn't gotten what he wanted,
Speaker 1: so he's going to have to play that card again.
Speaker 1: So Royal Ton of Baums, you know, going back to
Speaker 1: Anderson and Wilson thinking about this in terms of Hackman's career,
Speaker 1: it is one of Wes Anderson's restoration comedies, so it's
Speaker 1: going to be different than his Hackman's Disillusion seventies work
Speaker 1: where these roosters almost always pay a price. Royal manages,
Speaker 1: despite himself, despite his self delusion, to find his way
Speaker 1: back into his family's life by the movie's end, and
Speaker 1: so I love this film. I'm almost talking to myself
Speaker 1: into moving it back up into the number one because
Speaker 1: it's the redemption of the Gene Hackman rooster. That is
Speaker 1: what Royal Tenant of Bombs is. Probably should be my
Speaker 1: number one, But I've got to hear at number two.
Speaker 2: Rewatching that scene today, I'm willing to maybe give you,
Speaker 2: Josh that that's the best Gene Hackman scene in the film,
Speaker 2: that's the best performance scene in the film. But I
Speaker 2: did go in a different direction and I saved it
Speaker 2: for number one. I had to put it at number one.
Speaker 2: So we'll see you're stand how we do here with
Speaker 2: these final two choices. I think we're going to overlap
Speaker 2: in terms of film titles, just in a different order.
Speaker 2: And I'm going to go back to a vulnerable Gene Hackman.
Speaker 2: I'm going to go to a scene where he is fighting,
Speaker 2: as he often is, fighting against that vulnerability and where
Speaker 2: some real, real emotion ultimately does come through. It is
Speaker 2: from the pen ultimate scene in the movie that was
Speaker 2: homework for both of us to prepare for this list.
Speaker 2: It was the biggest blind spot for me on the list.
Speaker 2: A movie I've always wanted to see, Jerry Schatzburg's nineteen
Speaker 2: seventy three film Scarecrow, starring Hackman and al Pacino. The
Speaker 2: penultimate scene. We are going to spoil this movie if
Speaker 2: you haven't seen it and you really want to see it,
Speaker 2: especially after you are going to hear both of us
Speaker 2: praise it, or maybe you won't because you're going to
Speaker 2: fast forward. That's fine, We are okay with that, but
Speaker 2: we cannot avoid talking about the ending of this film.
Speaker 2: And to go back to Tenenbaumbs for a second, I
Speaker 2: didn't put I know you have Chassy on my list.
Speaker 2: It's an honorable mention. I've got another Tenenbom's choice at
Speaker 2: number one, as I alluded to. But the only Hackman
Speaker 2: scene that really does break my heart more than that
Speaker 2: one is this scene. This movie is about this unlikely
Speaker 2: friendship that develops between Hackman's Max and Pacino's Lion. Lion is.
Speaker 2: He's goofy, he's naive, he's sentimental, all things that Max isn't.
Speaker 2: Max is a hardnecks con he's quick tempered. He is
Speaker 2: someone who never backs down from anyone and never really
Speaker 2: seems For most of this film's running time, Josh never
Speaker 2: seems afraid of anything. But late in the film, there's
Speaker 2: a beating that occurs. Lion is hurt really badly and
Speaker 2: it traumatizes him, and that's followed by a conversation with
Speaker 2: the mother of the child that he's never met that
Speaker 2: compounds that trauma and Lion ends up hospitalized and catatonic
Speaker 2: on a gurney in a hallway. And this is where
Speaker 2: we see Max really crack. He cannot process that Lion
Speaker 2: won't be going with him to Pittsburgh, following through on
Speaker 2: all the plans that they have made on their journeys together.
Speaker 2: He can't process that Lion likely will never be the
Speaker 2: same again, that they may never actually interact with each
Speaker 2: other or engage with each other at all like they
Speaker 2: previously did. And he is fully initially in this denial stage,
Speaker 2: you hear him say to no one really at this point,
Speaker 2: he's talking to himself, he's talking to the room, he's
Speaker 2: talking to the cosmos. He says, he's just fooling around.
Speaker 2: He's just fooling around, as if Lyon is playing another gag.
Speaker 2: It's a joke, and he's trying to convince himself that
Speaker 2: it's true that he's going to snap out of this somehow,
Speaker 2: or he is play acting. But then you see it.
Speaker 2: You see it in Hackman's face as the camera tracks
Speaker 2: with him from talking to the doctor over to the bed.
Speaker 2: You see the recognition. And Josh, it's so funny. You
Speaker 2: mentioned in that tenembomb scene, how when there is that
Speaker 2: burst of emotion from Angelica Houston, how he looks around
Speaker 2: a little bit like like is anyone noticing this? And
Speaker 2: it's almost like, I wonder if it's a psychological gesture
Speaker 2: on the part of Hackman, because he does something similar
Speaker 2: in this scene, where as it's dawning on him what
Speaker 2: the reality is and what it's going to be moving forward,
Speaker 2: the closer he gets to Lion on that journey, he stops.
Speaker 2: He takes a moment, and he stops, and he looks
Speaker 2: back at the nurses station, and no one's paying attention
Speaker 2: to him, but he stops and looks at the nurses
Speaker 2: station almost like he's he's laying having to fully face
Speaker 2: the truth, or someone's gonna stop him, or something will happen,
Speaker 2: and he is this big presence. A lot is made
Speaker 2: of Hackman in his size as Max throughout the entire film,
Speaker 2: and of course his stature is so much greater than
Speaker 2: lions than Pacino's, but that just amplifies why it's then
Speaker 2: so crushing when Max finally does break down.
Speaker 1: Him.
Speaker 7: We would think a lot the way would think a lot.
Speaker 8: Right, we can make it work. An we.
Speaker 7: Can, we make it work. I just can't make it
Speaker 7: a little anymore.
Speaker 1: Come on, thank God.
Speaker 2: The way he shakes him, the way he tries to
Speaker 2: rouse him, just refusing to accept again that denial, refusing
Speaker 2: to accept that his friend is now like this and
Speaker 2: probably is going to stay this way. How he admonishes
Speaker 2: the skinny little bastard as he calls him to wake up.
Speaker 2: That denial then moves into anger, and then he goes
Speaker 2: through all the stages, then moves into depression. And then
Speaker 2: we have Hackman just intermingling all of those emotions. And
Speaker 2: here's the line, because again we've had so many great
Speaker 2: examples throughout this list of lines, I just can't make
Speaker 2: it alone anymore. When he admits to himself in the world,
Speaker 2: this character who has always been on his own now
Speaker 2: can't make it without Lyon and Shatsburgh even stretches out
Speaker 2: the journey down the hallway. He makes it seem like
Speaker 2: it takes him forever to get down the hallway. It's
Speaker 2: like the long emotional journey that Max's is going through,
Speaker 2: and we see the full range of hackman emotion, but
Speaker 2: we still see that restraint. I just think Hackman might
Speaker 2: be Josh and this scene really cements it for me.
Speaker 2: He might be the consummate film actor. He knows exactly
Speaker 2: how to pitch a performance for the camera. He is
Speaker 2: never too big, he is never too small. He's never
Speaker 2: anything but completely honest. And that scene just devastated me
Speaker 2: watching Scarecrow.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's incredible. It's the it's the cracking open of Max,
Speaker 1: which you know is something he's resisted the entire film long.
Speaker 1: There's also a little line in there where he references,
Speaker 1: I'm going to go back to that payphone and find
Speaker 1: out what find out what she said? What I love
Speaker 1: about that? And maybe Hackman just brought that in on
Speaker 1: his own. Maybe it's it was part of the script
Speaker 1: by Gary Michael White, but it reveals, you know, we're
Speaker 1: getting into the details here, which might be difficult for
Speaker 1: people who haven't seen this, but that scene is played
Speaker 1: at the payphone where Pacino's character denies the reality of
Speaker 1: what he heard and lies to Max and tries to
Speaker 1: paint a rosy picture, and in the moment Max pretty
Speaker 1: much buys it right so he can get along with
Speaker 1: what he wants. But calling it back in the scene
Speaker 1: you've picked shows that Max knew what was happening then,
Speaker 1: and he's blaming himself for not confronting it then because
Speaker 1: it might have in some way prevented where they're at now.
Speaker 1: It's just all of these layers again going on that
Speaker 1: he's able to play in a single scene. So yeah,
Speaker 1: great pick Scarecrow. I mean, man, this was the discovery,
Speaker 1: right this is doing this list was worth it for
Speaker 1: Scarecrow because yeah, I knew about it as well and
Speaker 1: had hoped at some point to get to it. But
Speaker 1: it's not really discussed among the masterpieces of the nineteen seventies, right,
Speaker 1: but it is. It's hard now that I've seen it
Speaker 1: to imagine that decade without a movie like Scarecrow. It's
Speaker 1: just a time when there was studio in security and
Speaker 1: there was you know, openness to idiosyncratic storytelling, unconventional leading men.
Speaker 1: We're getting here. It's such a seventies movie in that way.
Speaker 1: And at the same time, watching Max struck me as
Speaker 1: the ultimate embody of this quintessential Hackman character. He's a cajoler,
Speaker 1: he's a storyteller, big talker with big plans here, you know,
Speaker 1: to open that car wash in Pittsburgh. But you know
Speaker 1: it's all upfront, we know it in the audience. Think
Speaker 1: about the way he ostentatiously chomps on I don't know
Speaker 1: if it's a full cigar or it's something like that
Speaker 1: all the time. Also, notice how often he has trouble
Speaker 1: lighting it. He can hardly ever get the thing. Let
Speaker 1: how about his ratty notebook that contains his business plans.
Speaker 1: These are all expressions of self delusion, right, He's another
Speaker 1: self deluded cock of the walk here. And I'm gonna
Speaker 1: spoil even more. I'm gonna go all the way to
Speaker 1: the end for my pick, Adam. And I think this
Speaker 1: scene captures from what I saw previously and doing this homework,
Speaker 1: this capture is better than anything else the quintessential Hackman.
Speaker 1: To your point, if you haven't seen Scarcrow, you don't
Speaker 1: want the union spoiled skip ahead. It's not really a
Speaker 1: plot spoiler, but really you should get to experience and
Speaker 1: this within the flow of the film for the first time.
Speaker 1: But basically, at this point, because of the scene we
Speaker 1: just discussed, Pacino's character Lion has been tragically left behind.
Speaker 1: Max is still trying to get to Pittsburgh right pursue
Speaker 1: this dream. So Max is at the ticket counter at
Speaker 1: this train station and he's counting out the twenty seven
Speaker 1: dollars and ninety five cents he needs for the fair
Speaker 1: one bill at a time, basically, and of course he
Speaker 1: falls short. And what does he do. He just starts
Speaker 1: counting again, because you know, he's Max. He can will
Speaker 1: those extra bills into existence, and it's not working. So
Speaker 1: the teller asks him to step aside for the next customer,
Speaker 1: and we see him in the side of the frame
Speaker 1: while this woman's buying her ticket. He pulls off his boot,
Speaker 1: kind of cuts open the heel, pulls out this ten
Speaker 1: dollars bill and what does he do hands it to
Speaker 1: the woman at the counter with that shit eating grin.
Speaker 1: He has hit rock bottom. He's literally down to his
Speaker 1: last time. But you know what, Max thinks He's won
Speaker 1: that moment he thinks he's won, and it's this tragic
Speaker 1: ending because of that, and I think, you know, we
Speaker 1: get a sense of it because after she gives him
Speaker 1: the ticket, or he's waiting for it to process, he
Speaker 1: starts smacking his boot on the counter kind of to
Speaker 1: get my senses to get the heel back in place.
Speaker 1: Maybe I'm not entirely sure.
Speaker 2: No, that's it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, it's like it's just emphasizing his desperation,
Speaker 1: and yet Hackman brilliantly plays this as a triumphant moment
Speaker 1: for Max. So when I think when I think of
Speaker 1: Gene Hackman from now on, this scene might be the
Speaker 1: one that comes to mind first. So that's why I
Speaker 1: had to put it at number one.
Speaker 2: It's that desperation. It also just so matches that character
Speaker 2: that even in that moment, this moment ultimately of tragedy
Speaker 2: and of some sadness, he he's still going to be himself.
Speaker 2: He cannot be anything but who he is, and his
Speaker 2: nature is going to come through, and he does not
Speaker 2: care how uncouth that may appear, how distracting that might
Speaker 2: be to the tell, how much it might bother anybody
Speaker 2: else nearby. He's got to get that heel back on.
Speaker 2: He's going to do whatever he needs to do. That's
Speaker 2: who Max is. And that's such a great articulation of
Speaker 2: that seed and that grin in particular, seeing that that
Speaker 2: grin from Hackman there, from that character Max in that
Speaker 2: moment after the scene I just described at least sends
Speaker 2: you out, I suppose, on the only ray of hope
Speaker 2: that you can possibly have.
Speaker 1: Maybe, I mean yeah, I mean he's got to keep
Speaker 1: moving forward.
Speaker 2: I guess right, right, Okay, so Royal Tenant Bombs is
Speaker 2: at number one for me. The question is what scene
Speaker 2: is it going to be? And Sam should just go
Speaker 2: ahead and start queuing up me and Julio. I'm not
Speaker 2: talking about dance lessons.
Speaker 7: I'm talking about putting a brick through the other guy's windshield.
Speaker 2: I'm talking about taking it out and chopping it up.
Speaker 5: What do you mean?
Speaker 2: A mostly physical scene from Hackman right, little to no
Speaker 2: dialogue throughout this entire sequence, and it's just one of
Speaker 2: my favorite movie montages ever where you realize that as
Speaker 2: much of a scoundrel as Royal is, unlike his children
Speaker 2: and his grandchildren, he knows how to have a good
Speaker 2: time and he genuinely wants to give his grandsons a
Speaker 2: day where they can forget about the rough year that
Speaker 2: they have had.
Speaker 1: It.
Speaker 2: Maybe, no, it is inappropriate. The activities they engage in
Speaker 2: are inappropriate on so many levels. But it's the only
Speaker 2: way talk about being true to your nature. It is
Speaker 2: the only way Royal knows how to express his love.
Speaker 2: And that's what he does with them. That's what he does.
Speaker 2: And it's not an explosion of anger or violence, but
Speaker 2: an explosion of joy that yell as they run toward
Speaker 2: the swimming pool together and jump in the exuberance of
Speaker 2: that the pure child behavior. It's impossible for me anyway
Speaker 2: to watch that sequence and not have the same huge
Speaker 2: smile on my face the entire time that Hackman wears
Speaker 2: throughout the scene. And I'll extend it beyond me and
Speaker 2: Julio to when the music stops and Stiller's Chaz takes
Speaker 2: him into the closet, the gaming closet, to reprimand him
Speaker 2: for the inappropriateness of the day. You stay away from
Speaker 2: my children, Do you understand?
Speaker 1: My god it i haven't been in here for years.
Speaker 2: Hey are you listening to me?
Speaker 1: Yes?
Speaker 6: I am.
Speaker 2: I think you're having a nervous breakdown.
Speaker 1: I don't think you recovered from Rachel's death.
Speaker 2: This is a different kind of shouting from Hackman, one
Speaker 2: that isn't about putting Chaz in his place. He actually
Speaker 2: finally plays a bit of the parent. He is trying
Speaker 2: to get through to his son. Despite his selfishness that
Speaker 2: you can't deny, despite his lack of responsibility and his
Speaker 2: lack of accountability, he does see something true in his son.
Speaker 2: He is correct to note that Chaz will not face
Speaker 2: the fact that he hasn't fully processed his wife's death,
Speaker 2: and he calls him out on it in that moment.
Speaker 2: And just to have that be the closing of that scene, Josh,
Speaker 2: this scene that is that childlike joy that has you smiling,
Speaker 2: and then have such an honest emotional moment between those
Speaker 2: two characters. That's that's part of the wonder of the film.
Speaker 2: The Royal Tenet moms.
Speaker 1: For me, well you get you get one of the
Speaker 1: great Hackman chuckles at the end of the closets too.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it makes you wonder. You know, neither of
Speaker 1: us are at that point yet with grandchildren. But is
Speaker 1: that when you like actually start to be a good parent,
Speaker 1: Maybe when you see what your kids are doing wrong
Speaker 1: with their kids. That's right, Like, oh, oh, this is
Speaker 1: what I should have done it. I'm gonna tell you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's you know, what you're describing is how pleasurable it
Speaker 1: is to watch Gene Hackman on screen. And I don't
Speaker 1: know how many of our picks have delved necessarily into that,
Speaker 1: but I'm glad we've ended up here because whether he
Speaker 1: was being scary or insecure, there was still a certain
Speaker 1: pleasure in watching him. It's a great point, and maybe
Speaker 1: never more so than Here's. This is just where the
Speaker 1: pleasure comes out front and foremost.
Speaker 2: Those are our top five Gene Heckman scenes. We've already
Speaker 2: said how hard this was to whittle it down. You've
Speaker 2: referenced a few honorable mentions. I'm pretty sure I have
Speaker 2: at least five. I want to highlight here, Josh, which
Speaker 2: picks do you want to maybe highlight again? Which ones
Speaker 2: haven't come up yet?
Speaker 1: Yeah, let me go back to the conversation, because I
Speaker 1: don't want to give that film, that great Copla masterpiece,
Speaker 1: a short shrift, but it is for me, the honorable
Speaker 1: mention pick would be the finale tearing up the apartment.
Speaker 1: Then sitting in the mess. And you know, there's some
Speaker 1: very good conversation about this in the discord for film
Speaker 1: spotting family members when people were talking about some good
Speaker 1: conversation about exactly what you were talking about, Adam, like,
Speaker 1: is this what makes this a good Hackman?
Speaker 2: Why is it still a good hacking?
Speaker 1: And you know, for those who listened to a couple
Speaker 1: of shows Ago and Roxanna Hadadi guest hosted alongside me,
Speaker 1: she had a great story about watching the conversation with
Speaker 1: her dad and how that ending didn't immediately work for him,
Speaker 1: but then he found his way to it through Hackman's performance.
Speaker 1: So go back and listen to that if you haven't
Speaker 1: heard that yet. And also one more note here on
Speaker 1: this scene from the conversation comes from the friend of
Speaker 1: the show, fellow critic Aaron Newarth on My Larson on
Speaker 1: Film facebook page. He wrote this about it. Outmatched, outwitted, frustrated, alone,
Speaker 1: defeated with only one last resort, Jazz going from the
Speaker 1: paranoia fuel destruction of his home to sitting in his
Speaker 1: mess as he plays his sex. Harry coll knows that
Speaker 1: despite his efforts, he's failed again. The final scene is
Speaker 1: tremendous Ackman's best performance the conversation so strong case there
Speaker 1: from Aaron A couple more real quick here mentioned the
Speaker 1: French connection. My pick would have been the one you
Speaker 1: went with Adam in the climactic action sequence. I did
Speaker 1: watch as part of homework just because I've always wanted
Speaker 1: to see it. Sam Raimi's The Quick and the Dead.
Speaker 1: He's doing more of a stock villain here, kind of
Speaker 1: a riff on the richer role he had in Unforgiven,
Speaker 1: But you know what, he gets a great chuckle off
Speaker 1: with Keith David that is worth watching The Quick and
Speaker 1: the Dead alone. And then so many people mentioned young Frankenstein.
Speaker 1: I think that and his lex Luthor in the Superman
Speaker 1: films just showed it was a great reminder of his
Speaker 1: ability to do straight comedy, so I wanted to give
Speaker 1: a nod to those performances as well well.
Speaker 2: Speaking of comedy, here's three movies, three scenes that haven't
Speaker 2: come up yet, Josh. That really pained me to leave out.
Speaker 2: Another bit of homework for me was finally catching up
Speaker 2: with Mike Nichols the bird Cage and Nice. The scene
Speaker 2: that I love the most with Hackman is the one
Speaker 2: that allows me to live in this fantasy world, Josh,
Speaker 2: where ultra conservative, nightmare Republican senators can also reveal empathy
Speaker 2: and show that they actually have a human side to them.
Speaker 2: It's when they're sitting before dinner, I think, having some champagne,
Speaker 2: sitting across from each other, getting to know each other,
Speaker 2: and someone asks how was the trip, because they drove
Speaker 2: down from Ohio I believe, down to South Florida, to
Speaker 2: South Beach so they could meet the family of the
Speaker 2: man that their daughter is going to marry. And someone says,
Speaker 2: how's the trip, and he says, nice trip, very nice,
Speaker 2: And then Hackman delivers this beautiful monologue that highlights all
Speaker 2: of the differences between the states and the multitude of
Speaker 2: colors that he experienced. And the irony should not be
Speaker 2: lost on any viewer that this man who seems so
Speaker 2: rigid in his thinking and seems so oblivious or willfully
Speaker 2: oblivious to the differences that actually make America so great,
Speaker 2: is articulating it there as if it is something that
Speaker 2: he feels so deep in his heart. And Hackman here again,
Speaker 2: he just does it at the right pitch, Josh, where
Speaker 2: there's no music swelling underneath. He doesn't play it like
Speaker 2: there's music swelling underneath. He's not delivering some sermon. He's
Speaker 2: not winking at us and saying, oh, look, he's not
Speaker 2: such a bad guy after all. He just is evoking
Speaker 2: this memory of the trip and what struck him as
Speaker 2: he drove, and it's surprising to us. And I think
Speaker 2: it's a beautiful moment in the bird cage that Hackman
Speaker 2: makes special.
Speaker 8: We decided to drive down to see the seasons change.
Speaker 8: But it's just so magical to me to come from
Speaker 8: the north where it's cold.
Speaker 2: To the south where it's warm.
Speaker 8: See the tremendous differences from region to region in this
Speaker 8: incredible country of ours, the.
Speaker 6: Hills, the mountains, talk about your purple mountains, majesty, just fantastic.
Speaker 1: He's a great storyteller when movies give him the chance
Speaker 1: to just kind of spin a yarn or an experience
Speaker 1: like that.
Speaker 2: Right, how about his lex Luthor? So many options from
Speaker 2: Superman and Superman two. I'm gonna go with Superman two.
Speaker 2: In the White House, when he plops his feet up
Speaker 2: on the desk with the cigar, claims to want Australia.
Speaker 2: He starts out the scene being subservient and obsequious, towards
Speaker 2: General Zod and by the end it's as if Lex
Speaker 2: has been in charge the entire time. Pure Hackman charm,
Speaker 2: actually a devious charm. In that moment, I wish we
Speaker 2: had lessure for president. I know, hoosiers hoosiers, I play
Speaker 2: coach stays. I love that line. It's one of the
Speaker 2: more iconic scenes. Yeah, I'm not going with the pregame speech.
Speaker 2: This is the rewatch in the moment, Josh, where I
Speaker 2: was really cued into how many great scenes Hackman has,
Speaker 2: as we noted, where he doesn't say a word. Watch
Speaker 2: the journey Norman Dale goes on. Over the course of
Speaker 2: that entire sequence where the town is trying to vote
Speaker 2: him out, he has a really hard time expressing himself.
Speaker 2: He doesn't make a very eloquent speech. He certainly doesn't
Speaker 2: ask for forgiveness, and in fact he does the opposite.
Speaker 2: He says, I apologize for nothing, and he sits down
Speaker 2: and he knows what his fate is going to be.
Speaker 2: And the rest of that scene, for the next three
Speaker 2: four five minutes, Jimmy Chitwood shows up, different people go
Speaker 2: up and speak. It all plays out just in reaction
Speaker 2: shots on Hackman's face and you can see the entire
Speaker 2: arc of a character in that scene just by watching
Speaker 2: his facial reactions. Love it so.
Speaker 1: Glad you called out Hoosier's I've not seen it since
Speaker 1: it came out, which would have been I realized just
Speaker 1: doing research and looking at dates and stuff. Hoosiers came
Speaker 1: out I think the same year I played on my
Speaker 1: first official school basketball team. Really, so it would have
Speaker 1: like set my expectations for what this experience.
Speaker 2: Would be like. Of course I did invoke it earlier.
Speaker 2: I've had a rough year. Dad. I know you have
Speaker 2: Chassy from the Royal Tenebombs Mississippi Burning talk about scenes
Speaker 2: that are dark, where there's that little bit of sadistic
Speaker 2: thrust to them, but you noted this where you also
Speaker 2: liked that the character you're having fun with the characters
Speaker 2: righteousness and vindictiveness because he's taking it out on Ku
Speaker 2: Klux Klan members. The razor interrogation scene with Brad Dorf's
Speaker 2: character is a fun, a fung gene Hackman scene, despite
Speaker 2: how violent and intimidating it is. And I know there
Speaker 2: are so many more we could mention, but maybe as
Speaker 2: a nod to producer Sam who loves get Shorty as
Speaker 2: much as any person on the planet. Now, I don't
Speaker 2: know he didn't lobby for any scenes, and I don't
Speaker 2: know if any of Hackman's scenes as Harry's in are
Speaker 2: among Sam's favorite in the movie. But I rewatched a
Speaker 2: few today and the phone call scene with Dennis Farina's
Speaker 2: Ray Bones where he tells him to use his ething
Speaker 2: imagination and he starts taking on the personality and persona
Speaker 2: of Travolta's Chili Palmer. That that is a fun Gene Hackman.
Speaker 2: See that entire performance is fun. That movie is great.
Speaker 2: So I wanted to give a nod to get.
Speaker 1: Shorty, Where's Chili Palmer? Where's Leo de Vau? Where's my money? Ray?
Speaker 1: Look at me? What? Look at me? Ray? Did you
Speaker 1: just say look at you? Look at me? Ray? I'll
Speaker 1: tell you what, Harry, why don't you take him?
Speaker 2: Look at this again? Those are our top five Gene
Speaker 2: Hackman or ten Gene Hackman scenes. We would love to
Speaker 2: hear your picks or any other comments about the show,
Speaker 2: and I'll just go ahead and say it. Yes, we
Speaker 2: have both seen and enjoyed Bonnie and Clyde. You can
Speaker 2: email us feedback at Filmspotting dot net.
Speaker 1: If you want to connect with us on social media,
Speaker 1: you can find Adam and the show on Instagram and Facebook.
Speaker 1: He's at film Spotting. You can also find me at
Speaker 1: Larson on film. We are independently produced and listener supported.
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Speaker 1: monthly bonus shows, and access to the entire show archive.
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Speaker 1: go to film spotting dot net slash shop.
Speaker 2: Some more Hackman talk in those film Spotting archives. We
Speaker 2: talked about the Royal Tenebombs for its fifteenth anniversary back
Speaker 2: on episode five eighty nine. Wow, that was a long
Speaker 2: time ag Young Frankenstein in memory of Gene Wilder. We
Speaker 2: talked about that on episode six oh two and going
Speaker 2: way back even pre Josh Larsen part of our New
Speaker 2: Hollywood Marathon, we talked about Bonnie and Clyde. I don't
Speaker 2: know how much time we devoted to Gene Hackman. That
Speaker 2: was episode two fifty three out Knew this weekend in
Speaker 2: limited release. Eric LaRue, directed by Michael Shannon, recommended by
Speaker 2: Josh earlier in the show The Friend, starring Naomi Watts
Speaker 2: and Bill Murray, also Anne Dowd and Constant Swoo. That's
Speaker 2: from directors David Siegel and Scott McGhee, who made What
Speaker 2: Mazie Knew and The Deep End. The Ballad of Wallace Island,
Speaker 2: a movie I really want to catch up with. A
Speaker 2: movie about an eccentric lottery winner who hires his favorite
Speaker 2: musician to perform a private gig, also invited the musician's
Speaker 2: ex bandmate and ex girlfriend played by Kerrie Mulligan. That's
Speaker 2: based on an award winning short film from two thousand
Speaker 2: and seven, Freaky Tales. Josh, did you know that Anna
Speaker 2: Boden and Ryan Fleck have a new film?
Speaker 1: I only know because producer Sam highlighted this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, Four interconnected tales set in Oakland, California, circa
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty seven, featuring punks and skinheads, a rat battle,
Speaker 2: and an NBA All Star. The Luckiest Man in America
Speaker 2: is out. This stars Paul Walter Hauser as Michael Larson,
Speaker 2: an unemployed ice cream truck driver who, in nineteen eighty
Speaker 2: four true story, went on the game show Pressed Your
Speaker 2: Luck and could not Lose. Walter Goggins and David Strathern
Speaker 2: co star A Nice Indian Boy, the story of Navine
Speaker 2: who brings his fiance Jay played by Jonathan groth Holme,
Speaker 2: to his traditional Indian family. VI It and Mom is
Speaker 2: also playing at the Gene Sisco Film Center in Chicago,
Speaker 2: a queer love story largely set in a coal mine.
Speaker 2: Our friends Robert Daniels and Mariah Gates were positive. Robert
Speaker 2: called it hypnotic. Mariah Gates called it ethereal and hunting. Okay,
Speaker 2: I'm sold out wide. Josh taking anybody to a Minecraft
Speaker 2: movie and he nieces or nephews. I've got a couple
Speaker 2: of kids who want to see it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you should do that. Unfortunately, I'll be out
Speaker 1: of town.
Speaker 2: Yeah, Unfortunately. I know you're really bummed. Jack Black, Jason Momoa,
Speaker 2: and Oscar nominee Danielle Brooks star directed by Jared Hess,
Speaker 2: who made Napoleon, Dynamite and Nacho Leebray. Next week on
Speaker 2: the show, it is Joe Wright's Pride and Prejudice at
Speaker 2: twenty with Michael Phillips. We'll share our top five rain scenes.
Speaker 2: We'll talk a little bit about ephus, and we will
Speaker 2: share the Film Spotting Madness Elite eight matchups.
Speaker 1: Film Spotting is produced by Golden Joe Disso and Sam
Speaker 1: van Holgren. Without Sam and Golden Joe, this show wouldn't go.
Speaker 1: Our production assistant is Sophie Kempenar and special thanks to
Speaker 1: everyone at wb eazy Chicago. More information is available at
Speaker 1: wbeazy dot org. For film Spotting, I'm Josh Larson.
Speaker 2: And I'm Adam Kempinar. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 4: This conversation can serve no purpose anymore.
Speaker 2: The Barn film Spotting is listeners supported. Join the film
Speaker 2: Spotting Family at Filmspottingfamily dot com and get access to
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Speaker 2: for the first time, all in one place, the entire
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Speaker 2: That's a Film Spotting Family dot com panicly