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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff Mom Never Told You from housetop works

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

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Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline. And why don't we kick off Caroline

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Speaker 1: with some news out of the European Union news alert?

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Speaker 1: Do you need an accent news alert? Very good from

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Speaker 1: the European Union. Yeah. It turns out of the European

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Speaker 1: Union banned animal testing for cosmetics. Yeah, and it's going

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Speaker 1: into effect on March eleventh, two thousand thirteen, so it's

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Speaker 1: coming right up around the corner as this podcast is

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Speaker 1: being recorded. And it took twenty three years of trying,

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Speaker 1: but the European Coalition to End Animal Experiments helped bring

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Speaker 1: about that band, which is a pretty huge deal. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: This they say that all personal care products, so not

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Speaker 1: just you know, powder, but shampoo for instance, all personal

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Speaker 1: care care products will be subject to the rules, meaning

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Speaker 1: that final products cannot have been tested on animals. This

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Speaker 1: band was actually approved ten years ago, a full decade people,

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Speaker 1: and they initially agreed to begin enforcing it in two

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Speaker 1: thousand nine. But you know how these things are. People

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Speaker 1: move slowly, but the European Union is way ahead of

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Speaker 1: the US. If we're talking about bands and things. This

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Speaker 1: is true UM, and the EU is not the only

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Speaker 1: group of nations thinking about this. UH. Israel, although it

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Speaker 1: is not a group, it is a singular nation and

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Speaker 1: a singular nation. In addition to the European Union, UH

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Speaker 1: is banning the important marketing and sale of any cosmetics,

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Speaker 1: toiletries or detergents whose manufacturing process involved animal testing. But

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Speaker 1: it does make exemptions for items produced for medicinal products

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Speaker 1: not categorized as drugs. And that new law is in

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Speaker 1: addition to a two thousand seven law that banned animal

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Speaker 1: testing in Israel's cosmetics industry. But Mark Bittman, who we've

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Speaker 1: referenced a number of times and I'm sure a lot

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Speaker 1: of our listeners are familiar with from his food writing

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Speaker 1: at the New York Times, wrote in an op ed

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Speaker 1: column in February two, hey don't celebrate yet. Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: says that there are plenty don't worry people, There are

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Speaker 1: plenty of questionable ingredients still in your products. And not

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Speaker 1: only that, animal testing is far from over. And so

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Speaker 1: not only are we are we not We're not quite

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Speaker 1: there yet, especially in the US, from banning all animal

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Speaker 1: testing or at least you know, reducing it. China, they

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Speaker 1: came around and officially mandated that animal testing happen with

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Speaker 1: cosmetics like you have to. You can't sell cosmetics in

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Speaker 1: China if they haven't been tested on animals. But that

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Speaker 1: puts them in a sticky situation because then where are

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Speaker 1: they going to sell them outside of China? You put

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Speaker 1: that lipstick on a rabbit in China. Is such a

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Speaker 1: good example of how this animal testing issue is such

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Speaker 1: a complex one, not just from the you know, the

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Speaker 1: starting point of public perception in the whole morality debate

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Speaker 1: surrounding animal testing, but even to how how do you

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Speaker 1: stop it when it is so common and it's so

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Speaker 1: widespread and some would argue that it has positive benefits

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Speaker 1: as well. Um, But before we go any further though, Caroline,

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Speaker 1: some people might be wondering, why are christ and Caroline

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Speaker 1: talking about animal testing on stuff? Mom never told you

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Speaker 1: gender aspect all women love bunnies? Is that it? Well?

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Speaker 1: I don't have any empirical data to back that up,

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Speaker 1: although I will say that of the women in this

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Speaker 1: room right now, I think really enjoy bunnies. Antie, our producer,

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Speaker 1: she nods, we got we got a three for three

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Speaker 1: for bunnies. Now, Um, it's true. There has been um.

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Speaker 1: First of all, a long established gender differ in perceptions

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Speaker 1: toward animal testing. And what I mean by that is

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Speaker 1: that survey after survey after survey has shown that women,

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Speaker 1: more often than men opposed animal testing, usually on grounds

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Speaker 1: that we don't want to inflict unnecessary harm on animals

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Speaker 1: more taking more of the moral approach to it. Um.

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Speaker 1: For instance, there was a nine six study published in

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Speaker 1: the journal Ethics and Behavior which found that female college

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Speaker 1: students were more likely to support animal testing restrictions and

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Speaker 1: express concern over the suffering aspect, whereas men were more

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Speaker 1: likely to argue on behalf of the potential scientific insight

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Speaker 1: glean basically saying like, well, you know, if you got

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Speaker 1: to kill a few mice to get a drug that

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Speaker 1: can help a lot of people, then okay, then that's fine. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: there was a two thousand three Gallop poll among Americans, Britons,

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Speaker 1: and Canadians, and overall the majority of American and Canadians

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Speaker 1: thought that animal testing was more morally acceptable than Britain's did. However,

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Speaker 1: women in all countries who found that animal testing was

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Speaker 1: morally wrong far outnumbered the proportion of men who did so. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it's not just a thing of American women clutching

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Speaker 1: their their bunnies and their their mice. Um. And it's interesting,

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Speaker 1: and we don't have time to go into it in

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Speaker 1: this episode, and we should do another episode on this.

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Speaker 1: But women have always been very active with animal rights

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Speaker 1: in general, and this is something that people often trace

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Speaker 1: back to the progressive eras anti vivis section movement, in

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Speaker 1: which it was middle class women leading the charge in

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Speaker 1: what would be the predecessor to today's animal rights movement

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Speaker 1: that we think about and it's yeah, it's that whole

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Speaker 1: idea of the progressive eras moral accountability that the women

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Speaker 1: at the time talked about. And they also had a

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Speaker 1: large presence in the anti cruelty groups of the time

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Speaker 1: UM and groups like the a A vs. The American

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Speaker 1: Anti Vivisection Society. And if you want to learn more

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Speaker 1: about this, Emily Gardner has written a whole book on

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Speaker 1: this called Women and the Animal Rights Movement. And I

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Speaker 1: was looking at one section from the book and when

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Speaker 1: she was talking to twenty seven female animal rights activists

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Speaker 1: trying to figure out why it is that so many

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Speaker 1: women are involved in the first place in why more

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Speaker 1: men aren't involved, And she talked about how their presence

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Speaker 1: and animal rights was largely explained from just basic biological influences,

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Speaker 1: social learning, and empathy based on common oppressions, and that

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Speaker 1: whole common oppression thing is something that comes up as well,

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Speaker 1: where you can find so many papers on connections drawn

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Speaker 1: between animal rights support and feminism, basically saying like, you know,

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Speaker 1: we can empathize with, you know, oppression, I suppose in

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Speaker 1: a way. Yeah, And she said, uh, you know, are

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Speaker 1: the cages that can find humans and young girls any

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Speaker 1: different than the cages that can find animals? And I

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Speaker 1: can understand how some people might think that that is

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Speaker 1: a bit of a philosophical stretch, but I think it

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Speaker 1: would be worth us coming back to at some point

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Speaker 1: really digging into that history of why women have been

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Speaker 1: so invested in animal rights. But we thought because it

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Speaker 1: is such a gendered issue, not just on the human

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Speaker 1: side of whether or not you support it or oppose it,

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Speaker 1: but there's also gendered issues among test animals that we

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Speaker 1: could come back and talk about as well. The fact

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Speaker 1: that a lot of those mice, for instance, that we

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Speaker 1: think of in science labs tend to be male and

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Speaker 1: whether that's really such a good model if you're looking for, say,

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Speaker 1: a medication for female chronic pain things like that. So

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Speaker 1: gender is very much tied up with animal testing. Yeah, Now,

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Speaker 1: going back to more general history of animal testing, it

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Speaker 1: has really been crucial as far as testing everything from

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Speaker 1: medicines to yeah, even your shampoo. And there's a good

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Speaker 1: example of diabetic dogs proving the existence of insulin in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties. I'm imagining dogs and lab coats. Yes,

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Speaker 1: And one critical turning point was in nineteen thirty three

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Speaker 1: when at least seventeen American women were blinded by and

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Speaker 1: one died of complications from the use of new mascara

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Speaker 1: lash lure. At the time, no laws governed the safety

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Speaker 1: of consumer products. So everybody's like, oh my god, mascara

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Speaker 1: is killing our women. Yeah. There was this untested chemical

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Speaker 1: in it, a pheno emma diamine that caused blisters, abscesses,

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Speaker 1: and ulcers around women's eyelashes in faces. It even did

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Speaker 1: you mention that it even blinded one woman and one

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Speaker 1: woman got an infection so bad that she ended up

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Speaker 1: dying from it. Um. If you want to see some

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Speaker 1: not not so fun pictures on the internet. You can

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Speaker 1: google lash lure um. But because of that, Congress passed

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Speaker 1: the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act of nineteen thirty eight,

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Speaker 1: requiring that products be verified safe for human use before

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Speaker 1: they could be sold. Yeah, so this is where we

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Speaker 1: get the entrance of widespread animal testing based on the

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Speaker 1: premise that animals are similar enough to people. And I guess,

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Speaker 1: I mean call me ignorant. I really never thought of

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Speaker 1: thought of it that way as people being like, oh, well,

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Speaker 1: now we should start testing on bunnies and and mice.

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Speaker 1: Like I I never thought of it coming about that way, really,

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Speaker 1: I guess I thought of it as more of like

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Speaker 1: a lab medicine kind of thing that came later, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, at the time, I guess it was a

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Speaker 1: safety need that they thought that they were easily fulfilling. Um.

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Speaker 1: And if we fast forward to today, if we think about, well,

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Speaker 1: how many how many animals are involved in all this testing.

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Speaker 1: In two thousand seven, New York Times reported that, by

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Speaker 1: conservative estimates, tens of millions of animals are killed or

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Speaker 1: maimed each year in research on safety and effectiveness of

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Speaker 1: new drugs, agricultural chemicals, and consumer products. That would include cosmetics.

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Speaker 1: And I should mention too that we have had some

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Speaker 1: listeners right and asking us to do on an episode

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Speaker 1: specifically on animal testing on in cosmetics. But it's such

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Speaker 1: a huge thing that they're like, finding that granular of

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Speaker 1: information is surprisingly challenging. Yeah, although there is plenty of

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Speaker 1: information on lash lore, which is horrifying. One thing I

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Speaker 1: think is interesting, though, is just the lack of specific

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Speaker 1: and concrete numbers. The Humane Society in two thousand nine estimated,

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Speaker 1: similarly to that New York Times estimate, that more than

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Speaker 1: twenty five million vertebrate animals are used each year in research, testing,

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Speaker 1: in education, but they say accurate and comprehensive figures for

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Speaker 1: the US aren't available, and they point out that the

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Speaker 1: most common animal used, which are rats and mice bread

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Speaker 1: for research, aren't actually counted in that ginormous number of

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Speaker 1: lab animals, nor are they covered under the Animal Welfare Act. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so if you want to if you're curious about

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Speaker 1: the types of animals using research, obviously the number one

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Speaker 1: it's gonna be mice than rats, birds, rabbits, guinea pigs, hamsters,

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Speaker 1: farm animals, dogs, primates, and cats. I can't even imagine

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Speaker 1: how they get a cat to sit still. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's an insensitive comment, but that's why they live in cages.

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Speaker 1: Kitty cats. They're like, no, get off of me. But

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Speaker 1: the FDA stands on animal testing and products safety is

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Speaker 1: a little bit flimsy because the FDA says, hey, cosmetic firms,

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Speaker 1: I guess what, we want you to substantiate the safety

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Speaker 1: of your products. We don't want a lash Lore incident

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Speaker 1: happening again. But we're not going to necessarily re wire

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Speaker 1: you to do anything. And we're going to tell you

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Speaker 1: that we don't really like animal testing, but really we

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Speaker 1: just want to make sure that people don't get hurt

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Speaker 1: because of your products. Yeah, the FDA has advised manufacturers

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Speaker 1: to use whatever testing is appropriate for backing up the

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Speaker 1: safety of their products, but they haven't specifically said one

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Speaker 1: way or the other, don't use animals, or you have

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Speaker 1: to use animals. They do support applicable laws that are

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Speaker 1: in place, and one of those that we mentioned just

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Speaker 1: a second ago is the Animal Welfare Act, which was

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Speaker 1: signed into law in nineteen sixties six. It's the only

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Speaker 1: federal law that regulates the treatment of animals in research, exhibition,

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Speaker 1: or transport by dealers, and the Act requires that minimum

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Speaker 1: standards of care and treatment be provided for certain animals

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Speaker 1: bread for these uses. And I can imagine that that

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Speaker 1: people listening who are more active with animal rights would say, yeah,

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Speaker 1: minimum standards of care and treatment. I mean, that's it's

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Speaker 1: it is pretty baseline when you read about like what

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Speaker 1: minimum care entails is, you know, it's obviously like small

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Speaker 1: confined spaces and lots of food. Mice can just gorge

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Speaker 1: themselves usually no exercise, no bridge games, Sunday brunches with

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Speaker 1: the FAM. No. And then in two thousand to the

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Speaker 1: National Institutes of Health also got involved with overseeing the

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Speaker 1: care and use of laboratory animals with their Office of

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Speaker 1: Laboratory and Animal Welfare that's responsible for essentially administering policies

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Speaker 1: to make sure that animals involved in government funded research

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Speaker 1: are treated well. And then on top of that, getting

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Speaker 1: back to the whole cosmetics thing, there is a Safe

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Speaker 1: Cosmetics Act that was introduced in June two thousand eleven,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of just like a like an encouragement thing, like, hey,

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Speaker 1: do the right thing companies. And I don't think it's

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Speaker 1: been adopted yet, and I think it's still floating out

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Speaker 1: there like use safe powders. Yeah, it's it's almost like

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Speaker 1: the f d A the government, and I understand like

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Speaker 1: this when you're dealing with so many manufacturers manufacturing so

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Speaker 1: many products, I'm sure that it is challenging. But the

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Speaker 1: fact is it seems like the government takes merely a

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Speaker 1: good will approach, but like we like we give a

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Speaker 1: thumbs up to safe things, safe for all. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: mean I think I think the arguments definitely out there

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Speaker 1: melting off or or the bunny's eyeballs not melting off?

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Speaker 1: And that that is a question for some people. That

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Speaker 1: is a question for some people. And there are also

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Speaker 1: researchers who are busy looking for alternatives because it's not

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Speaker 1: like scientists are like, wah, I get to go to

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Speaker 1: look and and kill mice today or maybe somewhere I

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Speaker 1: hope not. There are alternatives being developed out there. The

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Speaker 1: John Hopkins Center for Alternatives to Animal Testing developed altway,

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Speaker 1: which is the clearinghouse for information about methods, research and

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Speaker 1: resources for alternative methods. So what are the some of

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Speaker 1: the things out there that helps there's grasp ingredients g

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Speaker 1: r A S, which is generally recognized as safe. These

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Speaker 1: are ingredients that don't require further testing. Uh, they're also

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Speaker 1: test tube in and computer technology, so it's sort of

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Speaker 1: a loophole like they were possibly tested a long time ago,

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Speaker 1: but now we recognize that they're okay, so we don't

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Speaker 1: have to test them anymore. Yeah, that would be like

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Speaker 1: an argument for companies that offer organic, all natural cosmetics

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Speaker 1: and beauty products. We don't have to worry so much

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Speaker 1: about the safety because we know that these things are

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Speaker 1: natural and okay for us, unless, of course, we have

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Speaker 1: an allergic reaction. And there are other efforts underway to

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Speaker 1: look into in vitro methods using human cells, cell line,

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Speaker 1: or cellular components to test on that smaller cellular basis,

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Speaker 1: rather than having to test an entire living organism like

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Speaker 1: a mouse or a rat or a bird um and

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Speaker 1: then looking at genetically genetically engineered rodents for labs. Although

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Speaker 1: that's that seems like it's just a different iteration of

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Speaker 1: the same thing. Yeah. Well, the whole using human cells

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Speaker 1: and human tissue makes sense to me because I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's actual people data, not mice data that we somehow

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Speaker 1: have to extrapolate and try to infer things from because

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Speaker 1: a lot of times, and I mean we'll get into

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Speaker 1: this in a second, but a lot of times the

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Speaker 1: information you get from a rat or a chimpanzee or

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Speaker 1: a rabbit has nothing to do with how an actual

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Speaker 1: human being would react to a product, right, I mean,

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Speaker 1: and obviously, you know, the closest you could get would

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Speaker 1: be through testing on primates. But oh my goodness, if

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Speaker 1: we have you know, if there's a moral debate around

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Speaker 1: whether or not to test on mice, you can imagine

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Speaker 1: the testing on chimpan z s. That's out of the question. Um.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, Caroline, it's such a good point about the

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Speaker 1: fact that the number one test subject mice actually do

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Speaker 1: make for terrible human comparisons in in a lot of ways. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is coming from a Slate article on February thirteen

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Speaker 1: of this year. A study in the Proceedings of the

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Speaker 1: National Academy of Sciences found that among one hundred and

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Speaker 1: fifty potential treatments for severe inflammation that we're tested on

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Speaker 1: mice and that actually ended up helping the mice, none

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Speaker 1: of them had a positive result in human trials. Now,

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Speaker 1: they focused on inflammation just because that's what the researchers

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Speaker 1: themselves were focused on. It was interesting to read about

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Speaker 1: how what a difficult time they had getting this study published,

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Speaker 1: just because everybody's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. All

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Speaker 1: of our studies come from people who who practice on mice,

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Speaker 1: so we don't want to have like negative news out there.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, they found that there were not many similarities

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Speaker 1: between mouse and human data at all, including, you know,

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Speaker 1: the genes involved in each species inflammation, the molecules or

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Speaker 1: kinds of signaling that goes on inside cells, and the

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Speaker 1: correlation between mice and people. They said it was close

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Speaker 1: to zero. Now, in two thousand eight, there was another

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Speaker 1: paper that was also published in Penus Penus that identified

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Speaker 1: a hundred and twenty genes that are vital to human survival. Now,

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Speaker 1: of those, caroline just three turned out to also be

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Speaker 1: essential in mice. You might say, oh, that's still a

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Speaker 1: pretty significant that that's a jump. And the conclusion they

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Speaker 1: came to they said, it is possible that mouse models

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Speaker 1: of a large number of human diseases will not yield

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Speaker 1: sufficiently accurate information, although they might provide some basic knowledge.

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Speaker 1: So the uncomfortable conclusion that this reaches is that maybe

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Speaker 1: we need to find a better model for humans, which

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Speaker 1: is why things like testing those human cells or cell

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Speaker 1: lines could be a better alternative. But also there's a

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Speaker 1: whole issue raised of like, well, okay, well, let's keep

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Speaker 1: using mice if you want to use mice, but let's

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Speaker 1: look at what makes them so great at fighting certain

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Speaker 1: conditions or why didn't they suffer the inflammation that we

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Speaker 1: did under the certain condition, Because it's interesting, like all

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Speaker 1: the all the different types of humans that were tested,

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Speaker 1: they all responded the same, but all of the different

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Speaker 1: types of mice did not. I mean, I'm painting that

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Speaker 1: with a broad brush and the very vague language, but

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Speaker 1: all of that to say, like, okay, well why weren't

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Speaker 1: the mice responding in the way the people did. So

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Speaker 1: look at that as a solution maybe instead of trying

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Speaker 1: to make, as that Slate writer said, you know, make

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Speaker 1: mice just a terrible model for humans. Right, And because

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Speaker 1: it it seems like the research has been definitely lacking

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Speaker 1: over the past thirty years, because there are only a

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Speaker 1: dozen or so scholars who have even explored the question

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Speaker 1: of how often animal tests predict side effects in humans.

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Speaker 1: Because the thing is too if you think about it,

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Speaker 1: with a lot of these sets that are going on.

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Speaker 1: If it hurts the animal, of course it's going to

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Speaker 1: get shelved when the problems might actually be irrelevant in humans.

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Speaker 1: But then there are cases when it doesn't cause problems

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Speaker 1: when animals, but hurts or even kill people sometimes. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And an example of that is that there was a

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Speaker 1: test in March two thousand six were Lendon clinicians injected

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Speaker 1: six volunteers with tiny doses of an experimental treatment for

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Speaker 1: rheumatoid arthritis and multiple sclerosis. It had been given to mice, rats, rabbits,

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Speaker 1: and monkeys, all with no ill effects, but within minutes

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Speaker 1: of being injected, the human subjects were on the floor

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Speaker 1: writhing in pain. They all had to be hospitalized. Some

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Speaker 1: people's organ systems were shutting down. People had all sorts

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Speaker 1: of terrible things happening to them. So really it's kind

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Speaker 1: of it almost seems like a crap shoot. Well, and

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Speaker 1: and this is not to say that, you know, animal

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Speaker 1: testing has been totally pointless. Obviously, it's paved the way

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Speaker 1: for things like polio and hepatitis B vaccines, a medical

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Speaker 1: procedures like measuring blood pressure pacemaker's heart and lung machine

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Speaker 1: surgery techniques like those too correct and prevent bone diseases. Um.

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Speaker 1: But at the same time, it seems like where we

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Speaker 1: are now in two thousand thirteen, we were a long

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Speaker 1: way away from lash Lure days. And I'm going to

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Speaker 1: be curious to hear from people who are listening, who

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Speaker 1: are in you know, maybe lab technicians or in science

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Speaker 1: doing this kind of research where anial testing comes up

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Speaker 1: a lot, and wondering whether or not these kind of

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Speaker 1: conversations are happening, and what whether it is time to

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Speaker 1: move beyond the mouse model. I mean, I know in

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Speaker 1: a lot of ways this conversation might seem like an oversimplification,

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Speaker 1: but we take so much of what we get from

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Speaker 1: all of this for granted. I think it's worth looking

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Speaker 1: at the actual process of of what is going into

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Speaker 1: to keeping our products safe are and are they really

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Speaker 1: that safe because we haven't even touched on and I'm

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Speaker 1: sure people were right in about you know, the the

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Speaker 1: basic you know, kind of nasty chemicals that people keep

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Speaker 1: finding out about that are in pretty much everything surrounding it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's a whole lichee of cruelty free like

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Speaker 1: will will do anything if I buy cruelty free products,

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Speaker 1: and those are a lot of the products that say, okay,

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Speaker 1: they were not tested on animals. We have the leaping

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Speaker 1: bunny logo to signify that, you know, none of this

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Speaker 1: was tested on animals. But then there's a whole bunch

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Speaker 1: of literature out there that talks about how, well, okay,

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Speaker 1: maybe the final product wasn't tested on an animal, but

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Speaker 1: that doesn't mean all the ingredients weren't or weren't at

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Speaker 1: some point tested on animals. It reminds me so much

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Speaker 1: of the difficulty that has come up with the organic

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Speaker 1: label for food of people being able to say, oh,

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Speaker 1: this is organic, wink wink, and then still having some

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Speaker 1: kinds of pesticides. It's not necessarily all natural that you

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Speaker 1: can still say organic. Um, yeah, it's it's it's messy.

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Speaker 1: It does get messy, I can honestly, I'll admit it. Uh,

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Speaker 1: that is not something that I consider when I buy

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Speaker 1: products as to whether it's tested on animals. But I know, yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I know that it's something that a lot of

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Speaker 1: listeners are concerned about, and I do want to go

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Speaker 1: back again and do something more looking into why women

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Speaker 1: do tend to be more devoted to or concerned about

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Speaker 1: animal testing compared to two men out there, and whether,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, I wonder if, along the same lines

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Speaker 1: as thinking about organics for food um, whether or not

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Speaker 1: moms might be more invested in in non animal tested

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Speaker 1: products as well. So what I'm saying is, listeners, we

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Speaker 1: want to hear from you about this. We wanted to

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Speaker 1: do this because of the the EU band that's about

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Speaker 1: to go in place, and it'll be interesting to see

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Speaker 1: if there's any kind of ripple effect in the United States.

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Speaker 1: So send us your letters on this mom stuff. At

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Speaker 1: Discovery dot com is where you can send them. Well,

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Speaker 1: I've got one here from Joe in response to our

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Speaker 1: episode for Valentine's Day on whether p d A is okay,

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Speaker 1: and she had an instance when PDA was totally not

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Speaker 1: okay because she got a social kiss at work. She says,

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Speaker 1: Over the past few months, I've had four or five

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Speaker 1: meetings with a guy wanting my company to invest in

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Speaker 1: his product. We got on well, seemed to connect at

404
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Speaker 1: an innovation level, and things were looking strong. That is

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Speaker 1: until the last meeting. As I was walking him out

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Speaker 1: of my office, I extended my hand for a handshake

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Speaker 1: and got pulled in for a really awful kiss on

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Speaker 1: the cheek. The whole thing was ikey and uncomfortable and

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Speaker 1: made me question if we connected because of a shared

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Speaker 1: love for innovation or if he had additional thoughts. After

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Speaker 1: discussing it length with my colleagues, we've declared his behavior

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Speaker 1: creepy and unprofessional. As a woman in a male dominated industry,

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Speaker 1: I worked hard to make gender and non issue, but

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Speaker 1: this would be supplier. Probably would have never social kissed

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Speaker 1: one of my male colleagues, and I agree with that.

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Speaker 1: Joe mh. Just put up your hand really fast so

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Speaker 1: that it awkwardly kisses the palm of your hand. Dominance

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Speaker 1: face mush, Okay, here's the Here's one from Aaron. She

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Speaker 1: said she just finished our pro Lapsed Uterus episode Kristen

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Speaker 1: one of my face Yeah obviously a listener faith too,

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Speaker 1: for sure. Um didn't give anyone nightmares, but she says

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Speaker 1: I was frantically doing kegle exercises pretty much throughout the episode.

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Speaker 1: While there is not really a wrong way to do kegles,

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00:25:22,640 --> 00:25:24,919
Speaker 1: I found myself with poor timing control, and in this

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Speaker 1: world of unrolled the toilet paper apps, I thought that

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Speaker 1: there must be an app for Cagle exercises, and of

427
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:33,360
Speaker 1: course there was a plethora to choose from. I ended

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Speaker 1: up downloading the free Kegel cat out of sheer curiosity.

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Speaker 1: It is fantastic. You can set up how many reps,

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Speaker 1: the duration of each rep, and the rest period duration.

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Speaker 1: I hope you're wearing sweatbands. Erin sounds difficult, a very

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Speaker 1: anime s cat with a sweatband times or routine with

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Speaker 1: differently pitched muse It is a tag bit ridiculous, but

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Speaker 1: keeps me on track more or less because it is ridiculous.

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Speaker 1: It also features an endless kegel mode as well as

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00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 1: a dance mode that you'll just have to check out

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00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:06,440
Speaker 1: for yourselves. She says, I have no words that would

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Speaker 1: give it frenetic absurdity justice. So thank you Aaron Cagles.

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00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:16,200
Speaker 1: There's an app for that. So thanks to everyone who

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00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:19,600
Speaker 1: has written into mom Stuff at discovery dot com, which

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00:26:19,600 --> 00:26:21,359
Speaker 1: of course is where you can send your letters. You

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00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 1: can also find us on Facebook, leave us a message

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00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:25,679
Speaker 1: there and like us while you're at it. Follow us

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Speaker 1: on Twitter at Mom's Stuff podcast, and follow us on

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Speaker 1: Tumbler as well, and Stuff Mom Never Told You dot

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00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 1: tumblr dot com. And if you want to learn more

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00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 1: about the science of animals and animal testing and all

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00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:42,199
Speaker 1: of those products that we get out of those laboratories,

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00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:45,680
Speaker 1: well you can probably guess here to go. It's how

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00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com for more on this and thousands

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00:26:51,480 --> 00:26:58,760
Speaker 1: of other topics. Does it how stuff works dot com