WEBVTT - How to Talk to Aliens 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:07.200 Brought to you by Toyota. Let's go places. Welcome to 0:00:07.400 --> 0:00:13.560 Forward Thinking. Hey there, and welcome to Forward Thinking, the 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:16.440 podcast that looks at the future and says I talk talk, 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:20.960 I talked to you. I'm Jonathan Strickland, I'm Lauren Vocal 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:24.880 Bomb Hi, and I'm Joe. How y'all doing today? Not 0:00:24.960 --> 0:00:27.480 too bad? I'm sorry, But before we started rolling a 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:30.440 little look behind the scenes here y'all, Jonathan apologized in 0:00:30.480 --> 0:00:33.959 advance for his lyric today. And so that was just 0:00:34.080 --> 0:00:38.160 my reaction to that one. Um, I feel I feel 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:41.600 good about it, uh, and I feel good in general. Joe, Yes, 0:00:41.920 --> 0:00:44.360 But Joe, I think that you had something more serious 0:00:44.400 --> 0:00:47.720 and not nineties pop music related to ask us. No, 0:00:48.120 --> 0:00:52.080 I have something very fifty sci fi related. So the 0:00:52.120 --> 0:00:55.200 other day I was watching a great old classic called 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:58.080 The Day the Earth Stood Still. Thank God. I thought 0:00:58.080 --> 0:01:00.080 you were going to say some other thing, attack the 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:05.720 crab monster jam No, no, no, that wasn't from the fifties. 0:01:05.840 --> 0:01:10.240 I know, but he didn't start with okay, no, the 0:01:10.280 --> 0:01:13.720 Day the Earth Stood Still. So aliens arrived, Clatto comes 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:17.440 out of the flying saucer addresses the ambassador from Earth. 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:22.800 I think he gets shot almost immediately in peace. Yeah, 0:01:22.880 --> 0:01:26.840 but here's how it almost always is in the old 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:32.240 movies especially, Aliens are very easy to communicate with because 0:01:32.480 --> 0:01:35.399 they come down, they arrive at Earth, and they are 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:39.720 bipedal primates who speak English with varying degrees of sliminess 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:46.200 or tentacles on their heads. Occasionally they are not able 0:01:46.280 --> 0:01:49.000 to speak in English. However, they are able to use 0:01:49.080 --> 0:01:52.920 another human as a conduit through which it can speak English, 0:01:53.000 --> 0:01:58.840 for example, Independence Day. Sure, yeah, let us speak not 0:01:58.960 --> 0:02:02.240 of Dr Oakin. Uh, that's the same guy who played Data, 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:09.920 wouldn't it. Well? Anyway, In reality, if there are aliens 0:02:09.960 --> 0:02:13.359 out there, we've got a few problems. They're not coming 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:15.519 to Earth, or at least not yet, not that we 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:18.000 know of, And so that means if we want to 0:02:18.000 --> 0:02:21.720 talk to them, we need to receive and transmit messages 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:25.240 over long distances. And also in the real world, there's 0:02:25.280 --> 0:02:28.800 no reason to assume aliens already speak perfect American English 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:31.880 or have any kind of universal translator. Yeah, let's let's 0:02:31.919 --> 0:02:34.680 first point out that there are a lot of Americans 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:38.720 who cannot speak anything close to perfect American, like all 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:42.120 three of us. Yeah, sure, all the time. There are 0:02:42.320 --> 0:02:46.160 even more basic assumptions than that we probably shouldn't make. 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:49.000 So after that, you may be thinking, huh, well, if 0:02:49.080 --> 0:02:52.360 we can't assume that aliens can speak you know, English, 0:02:52.440 --> 0:02:56.800 or Chinese or any other Earth based language, why on 0:02:56.919 --> 0:03:00.240 Earth could we ever expect to have a converse station 0:03:00.360 --> 0:03:03.920 with them? How could we possibly set up communication between 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:06.359 different solar systems? And I do want to impress upon 0:03:06.400 --> 0:03:08.600 you guys exactly how huge of a problem that is, 0:03:08.639 --> 0:03:12.320 because we humans have a really hard time understanding each 0:03:12.360 --> 0:03:15.760 other's languages a lot. I mean, I mean modern languages 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:17.959 all right, right, and that's not even taking into account 0:03:18.120 --> 0:03:20.680 ancient languages. Yeah, yeah, I'm one of the things I 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:22.640 wanted to point out. I had a quick aside in 0:03:22.680 --> 0:03:25.239 the notes. I love having my asides before we're even 0:03:25.440 --> 0:03:29.280 able to really dive into the topic. Is just the 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:33.840 the proof that we would have some significant challenges being 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:36.720 able to decipher any sort of alien language or be 0:03:36.800 --> 0:03:40.320 able to communicate meaningfully to aliens. Uh. In a way 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:42.280 that I feel confident about that is, we just look 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:45.440 at how we've treated ancient languages that we had lost 0:03:46.000 --> 0:03:49.720 practically all context around, so that we were unable to 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:52.040 understand them for the longest time. So say, for example, 0:03:52.120 --> 0:03:55.840 you have a bunch of examples of ancient Egyptian script, 0:03:56.200 --> 0:04:01.440 got some some hieroglyphics, but there's no translation for them, right, 0:04:01.560 --> 0:04:04.200 You don't know you don't know that this symbol in 0:04:04.280 --> 0:04:08.080 ancient Egyptian means this symbol or this s phonetic unit 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:11.200 in another language. So on earth can you make sense 0:04:11.200 --> 0:04:13.080 of it? The way we made sense of it in 0:04:13.080 --> 0:04:16.560 the sense of ancient Egyptian hieroglyphs was because we were 0:04:16.600 --> 0:04:19.279 lucky enough to come across the Rosetta Stone. Now, the 0:04:19.360 --> 0:04:23.600 Rosetta Stone is a stone that has UH generally the 0:04:23.680 --> 0:04:27.599 same passage with minor differences, written three times in three 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:32.200 different languages. So there's uh. Egyptian hieroglyphs are one of 0:04:32.200 --> 0:04:35.719 the languages, Ancient Greek is another, and Demotic script, which 0:04:35.800 --> 0:04:39.520 was a later Egyptian language. Those are the three that 0:04:39.520 --> 0:04:42.560 are written. And by using those three texts and being 0:04:42.600 --> 0:04:46.880 able to make comparisons, linguists were able to say, oh, well, 0:04:46.920 --> 0:04:50.400 this tells us what these different hieroglyphics symbols mean, what 0:04:50.480 --> 0:04:53.960 they represent, and that was how we began to understand 0:04:54.400 --> 0:04:57.880 the language of the hieroglyphic images. That we would find 0:04:57.920 --> 0:05:01.800 everywhere that you know, we're we're artifacts from the ancient Egyptians, 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:05.720 but that all depends on a particular archaeological discovery. If 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:08.680 we had never discovered the Rosetta Stone or I don't know, 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:11.280 there may have been other archaeological discoveries since then that 0:05:11.320 --> 0:05:13.440 could have played the same role. I'm not sure, But 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:16.839 if we didn't have those things at our disposal, what 0:05:16.839 --> 0:05:20.680 would we do? Basically, we would be completely unable to 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:26.239 truly understand this language that that beings that were biologically 0:05:26.680 --> 0:05:31.919 identical to us more humans. Yeah yeah, wrote in what 0:05:32.080 --> 0:05:34.520 was that three to five thousand years ago? Yeah? Yeah, 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:39.360 So we're talking about our own species and not being 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:43.039 able except through on our own planets, right, except through 0:05:43.040 --> 0:05:46.960 fortuitous circumstance, being able to understand. And on top of that, 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:51.120 you get to the pronunciation of ancient Egyptian. We aren't 0:05:51.279 --> 0:05:55.120 entirely certain exactly what it sounded like. So if someone 0:05:55.160 --> 0:05:59.080 were to speak ancient Egyptian like in a film like Stargate, 0:05:59.640 --> 0:06:03.240 it might be exactly what it actually sounded like way 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:06.640 back when, because I mean, we still have scholars disagreeing 0:06:06.800 --> 0:06:10.640 on what the pronunciations were like. So, uh, you know 0:06:11.839 --> 0:06:14.039 when we point that out. The reason I point that 0:06:14.080 --> 0:06:17.159 out is to say, any message that we send that 0:06:17.200 --> 0:06:21.920 would be purely language based to an alien life form 0:06:22.040 --> 0:06:26.560 could be completely indecipherable. I mean, if we're having that 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:30.320 much trouble with languages from our own species in our 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:33.839 own history, imagine how much challenging, how much more challenging 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:37.280 it would be when either an alien race receives something 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:40.279 we send or we received something from an alien race. 0:06:40.320 --> 0:06:42.920 And understanding what that means, and that sort of brings 0:06:43.000 --> 0:06:45.520 us to the main thing we want to talk about today. 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:49.599 So this month, on Monday and Tuesday, November tenth and eleven, 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:56.000 the Seti Institute held a conference about communication with alien civilizations. 0:06:56.000 --> 0:06:59.040 And they brought together experts from a vast array of 0:06:59.120 --> 0:07:02.280 different dis to sort of combine their knowledge, put their 0:07:02.279 --> 0:07:06.120 heads together and and and see what they're different intuitions 0:07:06.160 --> 0:07:09.160 based on their different subject areas would come up with 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:13.640 with reference to insights about and recommendations for communicating with 0:07:13.680 --> 0:07:17.480 alien civilizations. So it's called communicating across the Cosmos, And 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:21.640 the central question was how can we make ourselves understood 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:25.160 by other civilizations in the galaxy. So the conference had 0:07:25.280 --> 0:07:27.800 seventeen presentations over a couple of days, and we don't 0:07:27.840 --> 0:07:29.720 have time to talk about all of them here, but 0:07:30.080 --> 0:07:34.560 we wanted to discuss some of the ideas that were 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:38.160 brought up at this conference and also just talk in general, 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:40.480 have a discussion about what it means to try to 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:44.120 communicate with aliens, how we could do it, what should 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:46.800 we say, how should we say it, and is it 0:07:46.920 --> 0:07:50.040 a is it something that's possible to achieve? This is 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:52.360 something that we've been thinking about for a while, We 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:54.800 as a species have been thinking about for a while, 0:07:54.880 --> 0:07:58.360 not just steady but you know, pre steady days. And 0:07:58.400 --> 0:07:59.920 so I wanted to talk a little bit about some 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:03.280 of the earlier ideas people have suggested and some of 0:08:03.280 --> 0:08:06.440 the actual things that we have done that could at 0:08:06.520 --> 0:08:11.560 least you know, in in theory be a communication with 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:15.520 an alien presence um and and so it's it's interesting 0:08:15.560 --> 0:08:17.320 to kind of look at what we've done before. Also, 0:08:17.480 --> 0:08:20.560 before I forget, I should mention this reminds me a 0:08:20.560 --> 0:08:24.600 lot about the episode of how do you warn the 0:08:24.640 --> 0:08:27.480 people of the future about something like a nuclear waste 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:30.840 disposal area? We talked about that, and I think in 0:08:30.880 --> 0:08:34.520 our second episode about dealing with nuclear waste for the future, 0:08:34.920 --> 0:08:38.280 the problem of communicating the fact that a very certain 0:08:38.280 --> 0:08:42.160 location has been made highly toxic for thousands of years. Right, 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:44.240 how do you how do you create symbols that will 0:08:44.320 --> 0:08:46.760 last the test of time, knowing that things, even things 0:08:46.800 --> 0:08:49.880 that you would first ascribed to being dangerous, like skull 0:08:49.880 --> 0:08:54.120 and crossbones, today our fashion statements on like clothing and 0:08:54.120 --> 0:08:58.280 even kids toys. So it's you know, it's a legitimate issue. Well, 0:08:58.320 --> 0:09:00.679 the same sort of thing, except kind of magnified when 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:03.240 you're talking about aliens. That doesn't mean that we haven't tried. 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:06.319 So some of the some of the earlier attempts before 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:10.280 we get into the actual conference details. Uh, there were 0:09:10.360 --> 0:09:14.520 some folks in the in the nineteenth century who thought, well, 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:17.120 there might be life on the Moon or on Mars. 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:20.920 We don't know, especially way back in the very early Yeah, 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:23.320 they had no idea, So spell it out on a 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:27.360 corn field, right, Actually one person did say, yes, one 0:09:27.400 --> 0:09:32.840 person suggested. One person suggested going into uh, something like 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:36.600 a corn field, cutting pathways through it and planning wheat instead, 0:09:36.679 --> 0:09:40.079 so that through the contrast, you could create geometric patterns 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:42.320 that could be seen from the moon, therefore being an 0:09:42.320 --> 0:09:46.199 indication of an intelligence that had put something there, because 0:09:46.760 --> 0:09:51.679 the thought process went no natural occurrence would create such 0:09:51.760 --> 0:09:55.200 perfect shapes. Okay, alright, that's cool, But but what about 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:57.760 something further away from than the Moon. I mean, what 0:09:57.840 --> 0:10:00.439 if there are aliens on Mars Martians where That was 0:10:00.480 --> 0:10:02.400 a big one, right, because for a long time, even 0:10:02.440 --> 0:10:05.120 the patterns that could be seen with the telescopes, we 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:09.640 had suggested things like possible canals. You guys have probably 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:12.280 heard about canals on Mars Um. So this was an 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:13.800 idea that was thrown around for a long time. And 0:10:13.840 --> 0:10:15.760 there are various people who are coming up with ideas 0:10:15.760 --> 0:10:18.520 of how we might be able to indicate to any 0:10:18.559 --> 0:10:21.440 source civilizations that might be on Mars that we are 0:10:21.559 --> 0:10:25.199 also here. And there was one guy, Joseph von Littrow, 0:10:25.280 --> 0:10:28.400 who said, why don't we just create these enormous channels 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:31.720 of water and then pour kerosene on top of the water. 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:34.080 It'll float on the top of the water. Then we 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:39.560 set fire to the kerosene and so these flaming channels 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:41.920 will create the same sort of shape. So I was 0:10:41.920 --> 0:10:44.200 talking about before, but on a massive scale. I'm talking 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:47.080 like huge, so that they would be visible from the 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:50.600 surface of Mars, especially if we're lighting it at night. Yeah, totally. Yeah, 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:53.800 so well you have to do it at night. That 0:10:53.800 --> 0:11:00.600 that ridiculous, right foresight to plan it when Mars would 0:11:00.600 --> 0:11:03.360 be in a position to see Earth on that side 0:11:03.360 --> 0:11:05.480 of Earth at night. I don't think they ever got 0:11:05.520 --> 0:11:07.480 to a point where any actual work was done. This 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:11.360 was purely on the theoretical. It's probably good because that 0:11:11.520 --> 0:11:15.360 also sounds really quite dangerous where going to come from? 0:11:15.960 --> 0:11:21.079 You know, yeah, who needs light scale kerosene burning? I 0:11:21.120 --> 0:11:24.320 like it moving into the actual space age when we 0:11:24.360 --> 0:11:28.280 could do things more meaningful than setting stuff on fire. Uh, 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:29.920 you know, in this case, we could set things on 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:32.880 fire and make it fly up into space. But the 0:11:32.920 --> 0:11:37.120 Pioneer ten and Pioneer eleven spacecraft each had plaques on 0:11:37.200 --> 0:11:40.040 them that detailed the origin point for those spacecraft as 0:11:40.040 --> 0:11:42.760 well as when they were launched. So the plaques measure 0:11:42.880 --> 0:11:45.560 six by nine inches, which is fifteen by twenty three 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:48.200 centimeters um. The plaques were bolted to the frames of 0:11:48.200 --> 0:11:51.120 the spacecraft and they show a naked man and a 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:53.839 naked woman. The man is waving as if to say, hello, 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:55.960 we have no clothes and we are probably good to eat. 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:00.720 The plaque also has a symbolical layout of our solar 0:12:00.720 --> 0:12:04.080 system as well as our son's position relative to nearby pulsars, 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:06.760 so that an alien craft, if it were to encounter 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:09.360 one of these, would be able to triangulate the position 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:12.920 of our solar system based upon the information um And 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:15.960 so that's kind of interesting. Yeah, but that's essentially just 0:12:16.000 --> 0:12:20.000 like a like a giant postcard. Yeah, yeah, it was 0:12:20.280 --> 0:12:23.360 really a I mean it was more than just literally 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:26.880 it was symbolic for a couple of different reasons. Sure, now, 0:12:26.920 --> 0:12:29.280 it was a lovely idea. And in nineteen seventy four 0:12:29.360 --> 0:12:31.760 we had another one, which was to beam up a 0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:37.920 message using a radio telescope at the Arecibo Observatory and uh, 0:12:37.960 --> 0:12:41.880 it was to the globular cluster M thirteen, Lovely Neighborhood, 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:45.559 um gated community. This is a cluster of stars that's 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:47.680 actually pretty dense. So it was thought, well, there are 0:12:47.720 --> 0:12:50.560 a lot of stars in this cluster, so if you know, 0:12:50.679 --> 0:12:53.560 it's just as good as any other potential target for 0:12:54.240 --> 0:12:57.520 possible intelligent life. And since there are more stars there 0:12:57.559 --> 0:13:01.520 than they're potential, Yeah, there's probably more planets in that 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:05.160 general area, but it's about twenty five light years away, 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:08.679 so that message would take years to get there. I mean, 0:13:08.679 --> 0:13:12.800 they're that message travels at the speed of light. So uh. 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:15.240 The digital message was a twenty three pixel by seventy 0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:18.120 three pixel bit map image. Have you seen the pictures 0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:20.760 of this? It looks like it's a level from an 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:26.200 Atari game. I'm wrong, I have seen it. It looks 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:30.400 very interesting, yeah, very So what's what's in the image? 0:13:30.480 --> 0:13:33.640 There's a stick figure or a block figure if you prefer, uh, 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:37.719 some chemical formulas, some numbers. There's also a very simplistic 0:13:37.760 --> 0:13:40.240 depiction of the radio telescope and the beam that was 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:45.199 sent out. But here's the sad trombone moment of this message, 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:49.120 which is that the way they aimed the message, they 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:52.679 aimed at where the globular cluster in thirteen was at 0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:57.439 that moment, not where it will be in Now. You've 0:13:57.440 --> 0:14:00.320 always gotta lead it. Now they didn't lead it, so 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:06.120 have taught me. Yeah, so in twenty five, in two years, 0:14:06.160 --> 0:14:08.920 that message will be where in thirteen was, not where 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:13.080 in thirteen is. So even if there were some sort 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:16.280 of intelligent life there, it's not going to be in 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:18.560 line with the message by the time it actually gets 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:22.040 to where it used to be. So the official response 0:14:22.080 --> 0:14:25.600 to that particular little stickling fact is that the message 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:29.080 was really a technological demonstration rather than a sincere effort 0:14:29.120 --> 0:14:32.040 to make contact with alien life. Uh. And again, if 0:14:32.040 --> 0:14:34.840 you think, well, it would take fifty thou years for 0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:37.240 a message to go out and get back to us, 0:14:37.640 --> 0:14:42.080 assuming that there isn't some sort of trans hyper communication 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:45.880 thing that we don't believe exists, and assuming that they're 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:48.160 really prompt with answering their man right, they might they 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:50.320 might be like, just let that's in the inbox for 0:14:50.360 --> 0:14:52.920 you know, a couple of millennia. We're talking about fifty 0:14:52.960 --> 0:14:55.440 thousand years before we would hear back. So I'm inclined 0:14:55.480 --> 0:14:57.360 to believe that, yes, this is really more of a 0:14:57.400 --> 0:14:59.960 symbolic show of look at what we're able to do. 0:15:00.800 --> 0:15:05.280 Um and fun side facts, since that radio telescope has 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:08.800 gathered data for the City at Home project, which we've 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:11.880 talked about, and distributed computing. What about those golden records 0:15:11.920 --> 0:15:14.680 we put on the Voyager spacecraft. They're pretty cool. Uh. 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:16.920 First of all, they are actually copper discs that are 0:15:16.920 --> 0:15:19.600 gold plated, so they're not pure gold. So if you 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:23.000 were thinking about leaving the solar system so that you 0:15:23.040 --> 0:15:27.000 could scavenge the gold records aboard the voyage of space. No, 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:31.680 you you people salvage copper for scrap. Yeah, but but 0:15:31.880 --> 0:15:36.800 gold by weight is far more valuable than copper. Yes, really, 0:15:36.840 --> 0:15:39.560 you wanted me to pull up the buy ounce. Always 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:43.800 go with gold at any rate. Uh. Actually, boys, both 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:47.600 of your metal is precious. This whole conversation is precious. 0:15:48.080 --> 0:15:51.280 So the message was about our history as a species, 0:15:51.360 --> 0:15:56.720 leaving out some of the more grim details. The records themselves. 0:15:57.080 --> 0:15:59.200 They were twelve inches in diameter, which is a little 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:01.040 more in thirties and meters. They had to be played 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:05.080 I think at sixteen and two thirds repetition revolutions per minute, 0:16:05.480 --> 0:16:08.440 so not the same as what are typical records here 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:10.720 on Earth, you know, the thirty threes. And this was 0:16:11.000 --> 0:16:13.280 but there. But there were instructions for how to play them, 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:16.840 kind of symbolic instructions, yeah, yeah, kind of a pictionary 0:16:16.880 --> 0:16:19.320 type thing. They also included a needle and a cartridge 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:26.400 inside the aluminum plated UHL that held the the discs 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:30.680 and uh they had a committee that decided what went 0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:35.160 on this particular these pair of disks, and it was 0:16:35.360 --> 0:16:38.920 chaired by Carl Sagan, so there were billions and billions 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:43.320 of submissions for that he went through. No, but I 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:47.840 had to say billions and billions because so uh, it 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:51.120 did include music from different cultures and different eras and 0:16:51.120 --> 0:16:54.280 greetings spoken in fifty five languages. And here are some 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:57.000 of the music that you could find on the those disks. 0:16:57.000 --> 0:16:58.520 I'm going to take issue with one of these, but 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:00.200 you can go ahead and read them. You're gonna take 0:17:00.240 --> 0:17:02.600 issue what that that it was included or that I 0:17:02.640 --> 0:17:06.360 put it? All right? So there's a box, Brandenburg Concerto 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:09.760 number two, Mozart's Queen of the Night, Aria from the 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:13.479 Magic Flute, Stravinsky's Sacrificial Dance from the Right of Spring, 0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.879 and Chuck Berry's Johnny B. Good. Is that the one 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:19.080 you want to take issue with, No, it's the Right 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:21.399 of Spring. We so we're deciding to set up a 0:17:21.480 --> 0:17:25.800 channel of communication via physical record with some future alien species, 0:17:25.800 --> 0:17:29.400 and what we give them is, I'm sure a very 0:17:29.440 --> 0:17:34.080 influential and great piece of music, but it's about human sacrifice. 0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:37.399 It's a ballet about a girl who dances herself to death. 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:41.120 And also it's something that pretty much started a riot 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:43.280 the first time it was performed. What's okay because none 0:17:43.320 --> 0:17:45.240 of that context is included with the records, so the 0:17:45.240 --> 0:17:47.359 aliens will have no way of knowing unless they you 0:17:47.359 --> 0:17:48.639 have a riot as soon as they hear it, in 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:52.359 which case we realize that Stravinsky's effect is truly universal. 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:57.919 There's also music from Japan, China, Bulgaria, from Native American tribes, 0:17:57.960 --> 0:18:01.800 from Aborigines, and more in fluded on those discs. There's 0:18:01.840 --> 0:18:04.280 also this is one of my favorite stories of all time. 0:18:04.320 --> 0:18:06.960 There's there's a soundtrack of the heartbeat and brain waves 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:09.240 of andrew Ien that was taken over the course of 0:18:09.240 --> 0:18:12.800 an hour in ninety seven. And Drew In was Carl 0:18:12.840 --> 0:18:15.560 Sagan's wife until the time of his death. The two 0:18:15.600 --> 0:18:18.520 of them had fallen in love a couple of days 0:18:18.600 --> 0:18:20.919 before she went in to do this recording. They had 0:18:20.920 --> 0:18:23.480 been colleagues for years and years and years and uh 0:18:23.720 --> 0:18:25.399 or months and months at the very least, and and 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:27.840 had been working very closely together, and over the course 0:18:27.840 --> 0:18:30.520 of a telephone conversation just a couple of days before 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:34.080 these readings were taken, she and and Sagan had this 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:37.840 revolutionary like like I love you, let's get married kind 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:41.359 of moment and so so she she says that that 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:45.719 while she was in this e G. Machine, Um, she 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:50.560 was meditating on falling in love. Yeah, so there's so 0:18:51.720 --> 0:18:54.000 that is going out into the universe. And I mean 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:56.400 and there were also there were also images that were 0:18:56.480 --> 0:19:02.240 converted into analog uh well a hug waves essentially and 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:05.760 recorded onto these discs. So, um, it wasn't just sound, 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:08.280 it was also pictures that you could get again you 0:19:08.280 --> 0:19:11.480 would have to follow the instructions on the plaque. Um. 0:19:11.560 --> 0:19:17.679 So these are all examples of previous symbolic attempts at 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:20.600 least to send messages out to the universe that essentially 0:19:20.680 --> 0:19:24.680 say we are here and we are curious about out there. 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:27.399 So this is some of the stuff we do that 0:19:27.480 --> 0:19:31.239 leads into the conference that about well, what if we 0:19:31.280 --> 0:19:34.639 took this the next step Instead of it being essentially, 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:37.840 you know, we're just hurling a rock out into space 0:19:37.920 --> 0:19:40.040 that happens to have information about us on it, what 0:19:40.119 --> 0:19:42.520 if we wanted to take a more uh you know, 0:19:42.600 --> 0:19:47.160 a more serious and more concentrated effort to say we're here. 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:50.320 What can that step be? Yeah, And so at this 0:19:50.440 --> 0:19:53.480 conference recently, there were I would say we could sort 0:19:53.520 --> 0:19:57.280 of group different discussions from the conference into sort of 0:19:57.320 --> 0:19:59.560 different categories. So one of the first ones I wanted 0:19:59.560 --> 0:20:02.560 to talk about, because I think it's kind of fundamental 0:20:02.600 --> 0:20:06.080 to all the other approaches, is what kind of assumptions 0:20:06.080 --> 0:20:09.760 can we make about the nature of alien minds? Like 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:12.800 what kinds of alien minds should we aspire to talk 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:15.800 to and what kinds of organisms will be able to 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:19.919 receive and understand messages that we send in principle. And 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:22.400 it's interesting because there's a law of discussion on this 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:25.119 right about all the different types of assumptions that we 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:27.879 may or may not be able to make, uh, you know. 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:31.840 And I'll withhold my own opinion about assumptions until we 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:34.600 discussed the other ones, because obviously, you know, I don't 0:20:34.640 --> 0:20:37.159 want to. I don't want to end up adding my 0:20:37.280 --> 0:20:41.600 bias to all the conversation that follows. Well, so, so 0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:44.639 some a few of the people spoke very specifically about 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:47.320 this kind of thing, right right Well there, So the 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:50.960 idea is, Okay, if you assume there is a technologically 0:20:51.000 --> 0:20:55.920 intelligent species, maybe there are some assumptions we can necessarily 0:20:56.000 --> 0:20:59.240 make about their psychology that you could not be a 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:03.840 technological civilization without certain things about your brain being a 0:21:03.880 --> 0:21:06.800 certain way or maybe not physically brain in the way 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:10.920 we think of brain. Whatever your intelligence organ is. Uh, 0:21:10.960 --> 0:21:13.480 you know, perhaps like an understanding of mathematics are you 0:21:13.520 --> 0:21:16.400 talking about or No, mathematics will be fundamental to when 0:21:16.400 --> 0:21:19.680 we talk about language, but I'm talking about even more 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:24.440 fundamental psychological conditions. So for example, uh, David Dounair from 0:21:24.640 --> 0:21:29.000 Lundon University gave a presentation that was related to well, 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:32.199 he wanted to say that, yes, we can probably expect 0:21:32.200 --> 0:21:35.400 to be able to communicate with an alien species, provided 0:21:35.480 --> 0:21:40.200 that a feature of that alien species is intersubjectivity, which 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:45.280 he defines as quote, the sharing of experiences about objects 0:21:45.320 --> 0:21:48.199 and events. So it's sort of like the basis of 0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:51.800 all social behavior and and civilization. I would I would 0:21:51.800 --> 0:21:55.360 say it's just the basis of communication, which is almost 0:21:55.520 --> 0:21:58.400 a circular argument, saying we will almost certainly be able 0:21:58.440 --> 0:22:02.680 to communicate with an alien species is capable of communicating 0:22:02.880 --> 0:22:05.640 well well, but without the ability to communicate, we would 0:22:05.640 --> 0:22:09.960 not be able to communicate with that alien species, which well, no, no, 0:22:10.160 --> 0:22:12.440 I'm just saying that's completely a valid point to make, 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:16.200 because there is absolutely the chance that that a complex 0:22:16.240 --> 0:22:20.679 alien life doesn't have any any methods of communicating with 0:22:20.720 --> 0:22:23.399 anything outside of itself. Right, Well, he argues, actually that 0:22:23.520 --> 0:22:26.920 any alien species that has the technology to receive our 0:22:27.040 --> 0:22:32.560 radio messages will possess intersubjectivity. He says, quote intersubjectivity is 0:22:32.600 --> 0:22:36.880 a basic requisite for the emergence of intelligence, sociability, communication, 0:22:36.960 --> 0:22:39.760 and technology. And I can see the idea there. I mean, 0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:44.040 you can't imagine, I really think that he really might 0:22:44.080 --> 0:22:46.320 be onto something that you can't come up with a 0:22:46.359 --> 0:22:51.080 scenario in which a species that can't communicate ideas or 0:22:51.240 --> 0:22:56.200 or experiences works together to create technology. Oh right, absolutely 0:22:56.240 --> 0:22:59.280 not so at least not one that has any form 0:22:59.280 --> 0:23:02.240 of individual is um right. So he argues that we 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:06.280 should sort of expect some attributes that are likely present 0:23:06.440 --> 0:23:10.680 based on this. We we should assume intersubjectivity in alien minds, 0:23:10.680 --> 0:23:15.400