WEBVTT - Operation Paperclip

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production

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<v Speaker 1>of I Heart Radio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Tracy V. Wilson and I'm Holly Friday. Today we

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<v Speaker 1>are going to talk about Operation paper Clip, which is

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<v Speaker 1>also known as Project paper Clip, and this was the

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<v Speaker 1>US effort to bring German scientists to the United States

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<v Speaker 1>after World War Two. And to be clear, the US

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<v Speaker 1>was definitely not the only Allied nation doing this, as examples,

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<v Speaker 1>the UK and France and the Soviet Union all had

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<v Speaker 1>their own programs to try to exploit German scientific and

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<v Speaker 1>engineering knowledge after the war. But in most cases those

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<v Speaker 1>other programs involved specialists and researchers who were either working

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<v Speaker 1>in occupied Germany or they were sent back to Germany

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<v Speaker 1>after a few years of provised work in another country.

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<v Speaker 1>But for the United States program, a lot of the

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<v Speaker 1>people who were part of it ultimately became permanent residents

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<v Speaker 1>or citizens of the US, and this included people who

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<v Speaker 1>were ardent Nazis or who had committed war crimes. A

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<v Speaker 1>lot of the time. The rockets scientists are the ones

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<v Speaker 1>who get the most discussion around this program today. So

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<v Speaker 1>people like Verner von Brown, who developed ballistic missiles for

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<v Speaker 1>the U. S. Army before joining the space program at NASA.

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<v Speaker 1>But paper Clippers really came from a wide range of

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<v Speaker 1>scientific and engineering specialties, including flight, medicine and chemical warfare

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<v Speaker 1>and aeronautics. They worked in military and in civilian roles.

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<v Speaker 1>It was like every layer of American industry and the

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<v Speaker 1>military industrial complex. When I started on this episode, my

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<v Speaker 1>intent was that today we were going to talk about

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<v Speaker 1>the context for this program and its precursor, which was

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<v Speaker 1>called Operation Overcast, and then the program itself and some

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<v Speaker 1>of the most prominent and notorious people who were part

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<v Speaker 1>of it. That turned out to be too much for

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<v Speaker 1>one episode, which people listening to me list all those

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<v Speaker 1>things off may not be that surprised by. So this

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<v Speaker 1>episode is going to whack through the arc of this

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<v Speaker 1>program's creation and its existence, and we'll have more about

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<v Speaker 1>some of the specific scientists and engineers and other specialties

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<v Speaker 1>in another episode sometime soon, possibly the next episode, but

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<v Speaker 1>since it's not written yet, I don't want to promise anything.

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<v Speaker 1>This is one of those things that became clear at

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<v Speaker 1>like three o'clock yesterday afternoon that this could not all

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<v Speaker 1>be one episode. So that means that while there will

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<v Speaker 1>be some references to some Nazi atrocities during World War

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<v Speaker 1>Two and the general era of thees and forties. There's

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<v Speaker 1>just that there's not as much detail about the specifics

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<v Speaker 1>in this particular episode. It is something that will be

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<v Speaker 1>discussed more in a future episode about the researchers themselves,

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<v Speaker 1>so to establish a bit of background on this subject.

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<v Speaker 1>In June of nineteen forty two, Adolf Hitler issued the

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<v Speaker 1>Decree of the Feur on the Reich Research Council. It read,

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<v Speaker 1>in part, quote, the necessity to expand all available forces

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<v Speaker 1>to highest efficiency in the interest of the state requires

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<v Speaker 1>not only in peace time, but also, and especially in wartime,

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<v Speaker 1>the concentrated effort of scientific research and its channelization toward

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<v Speaker 1>the goal to be aspired. It then went on to say,

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<v Speaker 1>leading men of science above all are to make research

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<v Speaker 1>fruitful for warfare by working together in their special fields.

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<v Speaker 1>In nineteen forty four he issued another decree, and this

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<v Speaker 1>one called for the development of weapons and equipment that

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<v Speaker 1>had quote revolutionary new characteristics. These would put Germany ahead

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<v Speaker 1>of its enemies. Nazi propaganda framed these new weapons and

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<v Speaker 1>equipment as Vunderwaffe or wonder weapons. Also in nineteen four,

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<v Speaker 1>Germany introduced the rocket power measer Schmidt Emmy one sixty three,

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<v Speaker 1>which was the world's first rocket powered fighter, the Messer

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<v Speaker 1>Schmidt Emmy two sixty two, which was the world's first

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<v Speaker 1>operational jet fighter, the V one flying Bomb, which was

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<v Speaker 1>the world's first cruise missile, and the V two rocket,

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<v Speaker 1>which was the world's first ballistic missile. So a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of wartime first there, and it has been widely repeated

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<v Speaker 1>that if these technologies had been introduced just a few

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<v Speaker 1>months earlier in the war, the Access Powers might well

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<v Speaker 1>have won, and there's some debate over whether that's really true,

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<v Speaker 1>but Allied military officials definitely saw all of this and

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<v Speaker 1>any other innovations that Germany might have had in the

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<v Speaker 1>works as a huge threat. There were concerned earned that

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<v Speaker 1>Germany's ultimate goal for the V two rocket was for

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<v Speaker 1>it to carry a nuclear payload, and concerns that it

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<v Speaker 1>was sharing its secrets and technologies with Japan, So the

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<v Speaker 1>Allied Powers made it a priority to try to capture

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<v Speaker 1>as much German research and technology as possible, both to

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<v Speaker 1>replicate it for themselves and to try to develop countermeasures,

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<v Speaker 1>especially after the D Day invasions started on June, teams

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<v Speaker 1>really searched for German research facilities and weapons factories that

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<v Speaker 1>copied blueprints and technical materials. They questioned scientists and confiscated

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<v Speaker 1>weapons and technology. This included disassembling and removing big pieces

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<v Speaker 1>of equipment like V two rockets and wind tunnels and aircraft.

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<v Speaker 1>This process really accelerated in the last months of the war.

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<v Speaker 1>The UK and the US formed the Combined Intelligence Objective

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<v Speaker 1>Subcommittee to coordinate a huge sweep for German military secrets

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<v Speaker 1>and equipment. This really s scalated after Hitler issued the

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<v Speaker 1>Destructive Measures on Rke Territory Decree also known as the

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<v Speaker 1>Nero Decree, that happened on March nineteenth nine, and this

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<v Speaker 1>decree called for the destruction of anything that could be

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<v Speaker 1>used by enemies of Germany. British and American units became

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<v Speaker 1>increasingly competitive as they tried to capture resources before Germany

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<v Speaker 1>could destroy them and before Soviet forces who had similar

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<v Speaker 1>objectives could move into an area. In some cases it

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<v Speaker 1>was literally an area that the Soviets were supposed to

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<v Speaker 1>be occupying, but British or American forces are both together

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<v Speaker 1>would be like, we we're got to get as much

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<v Speaker 1>of the stuff ourselves as possible before they get here.

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<v Speaker 1>As all of this was happening, military officials also started

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<v Speaker 1>to shift their focus a little bit, because no matter

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<v Speaker 1>how many blueprints or technical manuals or formulas or actual

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<v Speaker 1>pieces of technology they managed to secure, and no matter

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<v Speaker 1>how many specialists they interviewed, that still wouldn't be the

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<v Speaker 1>same of having ongoing access to the minds behind all

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<v Speaker 1>of this stuff. So the Combined Intelligence Objectives Subcommittee started

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<v Speaker 1>developing lists of people to target and bring in for

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<v Speaker 1>more long term work. Initially, there was a blacklist of

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<v Speaker 1>targets of military value and a gray list of targets

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<v Speaker 1>of quote vital postwar interest, but those people were not

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<v Speaker 1>of immediate military value. Often, though, these lists are kind

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<v Speaker 1>of lumped together as just the black list. One source

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<v Speaker 1>for the names on these lists was a document prepared

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<v Speaker 1>by senior Gestapo officer of Werner Ozenberg, who supervised the

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<v Speaker 1>planning office of the Reich Research Council. He had compiled

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<v Speaker 1>a list of about fifteen thousand names, part of which

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<v Speaker 1>was discovered in an unflushed toilet in March of nine.

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<v Speaker 1>When Osenburg himself was captured, he surrendered the entire list

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<v Speaker 1>along with documents that detailed the qualifications of the people

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<v Speaker 1>on that list and other documents related to the German

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<v Speaker 1>war or effort. The U. S. Army established the Field

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<v Speaker 1>Information Agency Technical or FIAT to help it exploit German

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<v Speaker 1>knowledge and resources, including finding and capturing people from this list,

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<v Speaker 1>and the term exploit comes up over and over in

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<v Speaker 1>descriptions of this whole phase of the project. Allied militaries

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<v Speaker 1>and governments were increasingly interpreting all of this as a

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<v Speaker 1>form of German reparations for the war, and German scientists, engineers, technicians,

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<v Speaker 1>and researchers were all resources to exploit as part of

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<v Speaker 1>those reparations. Supreme Headquarters Allied Expeditionary Force had established internment

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<v Speaker 1>camps for scientists and engineers in Germany and informally German

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<v Speaker 1>occupied territory. Some of these camps housed hundreds of people,

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<v Speaker 1>and beyond interrogating them about their work and getting to

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<v Speaker 1>interpret and explain technical documents, at first, officials weren't quite

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<v Speaker 1>sure what to do with them. Simply letting people go

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<v Speaker 1>after they'd been interrogated wasn't really an option. The people

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<v Speaker 1>who had developed the aircraft, bombs, and chemical and biological

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<v Speaker 1>weapons for the Third Reich still presented a threat. And

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<v Speaker 1>then on top of that, the Potsdam Agreement, which was

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<v Speaker 1>signed in August of n called for the quote complete

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<v Speaker 1>disarmament and demilitarization of Germany and the elimination or control

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<v Speaker 1>of all German industry that could be used for military production.

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<v Speaker 1>And that meant that for a lot of these specialists,

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<v Speaker 1>the industries that they had been working in, as well

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<v Speaker 1>as other related industries where they might have been able

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<v Speaker 1>to find jobs, those just would not exist anymore. So

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<v Speaker 1>it wasn't like they could interrogate someone, release them, keep

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<v Speaker 1>tabs on them to make sure they were, you know,

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<v Speaker 1>not doing anything dangerous while they went to some job

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<v Speaker 1>they had gotten because those industries they would have worked

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<v Speaker 1>in no longer were to exist. Although the US and

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<v Speaker 1>the UK were at eyes and the Combined Intelligence Subjective

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<v Speaker 1>Subcommittee had been established as a joint effort between the

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<v Speaker 1>two nations, over time they became increasingly competitive. For example,

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<v Speaker 1>on April, Colonel Donald L. Putt was led to the

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<v Speaker 1>Herman Geering Aeronautical Research Center at Vulcan Road, which had

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<v Speaker 1>been camouflaged under trees. This secret facility was in an

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<v Speaker 1>area that was supposed to be under British control, so

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<v Speaker 1>American forces worked as quickly as possible to secure as

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<v Speaker 1>much as they could before the British arrived. This kind

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<v Speaker 1>of stuff led to various toe stepping, basically from a

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<v Speaker 1>military perspective, and then the United States having to like

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<v Speaker 1>work with Britains to say, Okay, we took all these

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<v Speaker 1>V two rockets that you were supposed to get access to,

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<v Speaker 1>so we will work with you to figure out how

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<v Speaker 1>they work and to launch sums you can see how

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<v Speaker 1>they work. Some of this was specifically focused on trying

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<v Speaker 1>to secure information and weapons that could be used full

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<v Speaker 1>in the War in the Pacific, which was still ongoing.

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<v Speaker 1>On April twenty second, nineteen forty five, the US Army

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<v Speaker 1>Air Forces Intelligence Service launched Operation Lusty, which stood for

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<v Speaker 1>Luftwaffa's Secret Technology, and that was to secure technical and

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<v Speaker 1>scientific intelligence that could be used in the war against Japan.

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<v Speaker 1>The US started copying German munitions that had been used

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<v Speaker 1>against Britain during the Blitz. By the time Germany surrendered

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<v Speaker 1>on May eighth of nineteen forty five, the US had

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<v Speaker 1>captured most of Germany's most respected aircraft engineers. Two days later,

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<v Speaker 1>Allied forces intercepted the German submarine U eight five eight,

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<v Speaker 1>which surrendered in Delaware on May fourteenth. It was carrying

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<v Speaker 1>civilian engineers to Japan, along with advanced weaponry and supplies,

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<v Speaker 1>including an entire disassembled aircraft. Among its cargo were twelve

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<v Speaker 1>hundred pounds of uranium ox side. This was most likely

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<v Speaker 1>meant to be used for aircraft fuel, but it raised

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<v Speaker 1>fears of the possibility of nuclear weapons development. So this

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<v Speaker 1>made the ongoing exploitation of German researchers more urgent. An

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<v Speaker 1>officials started to question whether some of this work might

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<v Speaker 1>be done more effectively in the United States. Although it

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<v Speaker 1>was generally agreed that exploiting German researchers in Germany was

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<v Speaker 1>vital and was generally ethical, the idea of bringing people

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<v Speaker 1>into the US was a lot more controversial. On Under

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<v Speaker 1>Secretary of War Robert Patterson wrote a letter to Admiral

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<v Speaker 1>William D. Lahy which read, in part quote, I strongly

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<v Speaker 1>favored doing everything possible to utilize fully in the prosecution

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<v Speaker 1>of the war against Japan all information that can be

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<v Speaker 1>obtained from Germany or any other source. These men are enemies,

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<v Speaker 1>and it must be assumed they are capable of sabotaging

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<v Speaker 1>our war effort. Bringing them to this country raises delicate questions,

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<v Speaker 1>including the strong resentment of the American public, who might

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<v Speaker 1>misunderstand the purpose of bringing them here and the treatment

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<v Speaker 1>accorded them, But the idea of military necessity ultimately went

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<v Speaker 1>out over these and other concerns. After this letter, the

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<v Speaker 1>War Department General Staff held a meeting at the Pentagon

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<v Speaker 1>to develop a plan to give some German researchers, specifically

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<v Speaker 1>ones who were not Nazis or war criminals, temporary contracts

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<v Speaker 1>to work in the United States under protective military custody.

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<v Speaker 1>We will talk more about that after a sponsor break.

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<v Speaker 1>The first project to bring German scientists to the US

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<v Speaker 1>to work under a temporary contract was called Project Overcast,

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<v Speaker 1>and it was launched on July. Under this program, Germans

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<v Speaker 1>specialists and researchers would be brought to the US, where

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<v Speaker 1>they would temporarily work under military supervision before eventually returning

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<v Speaker 1>to Germany. Each person assigned a contract was supposed to

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<v Speaker 1>undergo a background check to confirm that they were not

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<v Speaker 1>an ardent Nazi. Like the word exploit, That phrase ardent

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<v Speaker 1>Nazi is a term that comes up a lot in

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<v Speaker 1>documents about Operation paper Clip and its related programs. Officials

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<v Speaker 1>recognized that under Adolf Hitler, Germany had been a single

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<v Speaker 1>party dictatorship, and that at least some involvement with Nazism

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<v Speaker 1>was essentially mandatory for non Jewish Germans. The researchers, who

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<v Speaker 1>the U saw is the most skilled and important, were

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<v Speaker 1>of course seen the same way by the Nazis, so

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<v Speaker 1>in many cases they had been targeted for leadership roles

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<v Speaker 1>and rewarded with honors and awards that were bestowed by

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<v Speaker 1>the party. Some people who joined the party also did

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<v Speaker 1>so out of a sense of self preservation or even opportunism.

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<v Speaker 1>So with all this in mind, the general conclusion among

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<v Speaker 1>American military authorities was that it was just not feasible

0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:01.600
<v Speaker 1>to restrict anyone who had any connection at all to

0:15:01.640 --> 0:15:05.520
<v Speaker 1>the Nazi Party. That would leave them with no researchers

0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:10.960
<v Speaker 1>to exploit. Instead, the focus was on banning ardent Nazis,

0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:14.520
<v Speaker 1>and ardent Nazis were described as people who had joined

0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:18.840
<v Speaker 1>the Nazi Party before Hitler declared himself, bureer people who

0:15:18.880 --> 0:15:21.040
<v Speaker 1>were leaders in the party or in one of its

0:15:21.080 --> 0:15:24.760
<v Speaker 1>affiliated organizations like the s S or the essay people

0:15:24.760 --> 0:15:28.640
<v Speaker 1>who had been convicted in a post war denazification court,

0:15:29.360 --> 0:15:32.600
<v Speaker 1>or people who had been accused or convicted of war crimes.

0:15:33.200 --> 0:15:37.800
<v Speaker 1>This process involved interviews, examining people's records, and confirming that

0:15:37.880 --> 0:15:40.520
<v Speaker 1>they were not on the Central Registry of War Criminals

0:15:40.600 --> 0:15:43.920
<v Speaker 1>and Security Suspects that's also known as the crow Cast List.

0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:48.640
<v Speaker 1>This list was described as quote an unwieldy monster archive.

0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:52.400
<v Speaker 1>It was often vague, it was full of undocumented allegations.

0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:55.120
<v Speaker 1>There's a lot of hearsay, But in terms of the

0:15:55.160 --> 0:15:58.360
<v Speaker 1>people conducting these background checks, it became a useful check

0:15:58.360 --> 0:16:01.800
<v Speaker 1>off to say this person was not a suspected war criminal.

0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:07.440
<v Speaker 1>This program, Operation Overcast, grew really quickly. It expanded to

0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:12.720
<v Speaker 1>include a huge assortment of government and military programs and

0:16:12.880 --> 0:16:17.480
<v Speaker 1>their associated acronyms. There were a lot of Every book

0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:19.280
<v Speaker 1>that I read on this had just a list of

0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:21.760
<v Speaker 1>acronyms at the beginning and what they all stood for.

0:16:22.640 --> 0:16:27.520
<v Speaker 1>The Joint Intelligence Objective Agency that is abbreviated j I

0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:31.200
<v Speaker 1>o A and usually said JOAH was created as part

0:16:31.200 --> 0:16:34.320
<v Speaker 1>of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during this expansion, and

0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:39.080
<v Speaker 1>this agency directed this whole operation and brought about sixteen

0:16:39.200 --> 0:16:43.400
<v Speaker 1>hundred German and Austrian scientists, engineers, and researchers to the

0:16:43.440 --> 0:16:48.000
<v Speaker 1>US between nine and nineteen seventy. The Office of Strategic

0:16:48.040 --> 0:16:51.240
<v Speaker 1>Services and the Joint Intelligence Committee were involved in this

0:16:51.360 --> 0:16:57.200
<v Speaker 1>as well. Japan formally surrendered on September two, but even

0:16:57.240 --> 0:17:00.000
<v Speaker 1>though that ended the war, the effort to bring German

0:17:00.080 --> 0:17:04.280
<v Speaker 1>scientists to the US continued. By January of nineteen forty six,

0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:07.399
<v Speaker 1>one hundred sixty German specialists had been brought to the

0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:11.600
<v Speaker 1>United States. One hundred fifteen of them were rocket specialists,

0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:15.520
<v Speaker 1>including Werner von Braun, and the program got bigger and

0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:19.399
<v Speaker 1>broader from their As a relations between the US and

0:17:19.440 --> 0:17:23.240
<v Speaker 1>the USSR devolved into the Cold War, the idea of

0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:27.280
<v Speaker 1>keeping the other side from getting access to German researchers

0:17:27.320 --> 0:17:30.520
<v Speaker 1>and technology became more and more important to both nations.

0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:34.520
<v Speaker 1>The United States started to see an eventual armed conflict

0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:39.520
<v Speaker 1>with the Soviet Union as inevitable advances in Soviet nuclear

0:17:39.600 --> 0:17:42.679
<v Speaker 1>research led to fears that the Soviets had been getting

0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:46.000
<v Speaker 1>aid from German scientists on this, although it later turned

0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:49.359
<v Speaker 1>out that they were really getting stolen American nuclear secrets.

0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:53.600
<v Speaker 1>On January third of nineteen forty six, the merc report

0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:58.120
<v Speaker 1>detailing biological warfare research in Japan became public and that

0:17:58.200 --> 0:18:02.159
<v Speaker 1>led for calls for more research into biological agents and

0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:06.840
<v Speaker 1>their countermeasures in the United States, and that was yet

0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:12.119
<v Speaker 1>another specialty of these German researchers. In March of ninety six,

0:18:12.359 --> 0:18:16.480
<v Speaker 1>Project Overcast expanded. It shifted from a limited number of

0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:20.919
<v Speaker 1>people with temporary contracts working under military supervision to between

0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:23.680
<v Speaker 1>eight hundred and a thousand specialists who would be offered

0:18:23.760 --> 0:18:27.920
<v Speaker 1>long term residency in the US and even citizenship. Since

0:18:27.920 --> 0:18:31.080
<v Speaker 1>this was no longer intended as a temporary assignment, the

0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:34.399
<v Speaker 1>researchers families would be permitted to enter the US permanently

0:18:34.520 --> 0:18:39.679
<v Speaker 1>as well. This was the whole process where Germany was

0:18:39.720 --> 0:18:43.800
<v Speaker 1>being denocified, like people with Nazi ties were being pulled

0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:47.000
<v Speaker 1>out of leadership positions, and all of these different industries

0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:49.560
<v Speaker 1>and all of these different contexts, some of the same

0:18:49.560 --> 0:18:51.679
<v Speaker 1>people were being brought to the United States and offered

0:18:51.760 --> 0:18:55.320
<v Speaker 1>US citizenship. So by this point, some of the scientists

0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:58.040
<v Speaker 1>families who were being housed at a camp in Germany

0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.760
<v Speaker 1>had started calling that camp Camp Overcast, and that prompted

0:19:01.760 --> 0:19:05.880
<v Speaker 1>this project's name chained to Operation paper Clip or Project

0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:09.160
<v Speaker 1>paper Clip, depending on the source that you're looking at.

0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:12.920
<v Speaker 1>That name came from the paper clips that were used

0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:17.280
<v Speaker 1>to discreetly flag the files of candidates whose backgrounds were

0:19:17.320 --> 0:19:20.560
<v Speaker 1>potentially too damning for them to be allowed into the

0:19:20.640 --> 0:19:24.920
<v Speaker 1>United States. In August, Secretary of State Dean Atchison sent

0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:28.760
<v Speaker 1>a top secret memo to President Harry Truman requesting his

0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:33.040
<v Speaker 1>approval of the interim exploitation of German and Austrian specialists

0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:37.480
<v Speaker 1>under Project paper Clip. The document Truman approved included the

0:19:37.520 --> 0:19:41.560
<v Speaker 1>text of State War Navy Coordinating Committee Document to five

0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:45.280
<v Speaker 1>seven Slash twenty two, which outlined a revised version for

0:19:45.359 --> 0:19:48.440
<v Speaker 1>the expanded paper Clip program that had been launched in March.

0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:52.840
<v Speaker 1>This read, in part quote, persons proposed to be brought

0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:55.679
<v Speaker 1>to the US here under shall be screened by the

0:19:55.720 --> 0:19:59.240
<v Speaker 1>Commanding General U. S. F Et on the basis of

0:19:59.280 --> 0:20:04.320
<v Speaker 1>available rec kords. No person found by the Commanding General U. S.

0:20:04.359 --> 0:20:06.640
<v Speaker 1>F Et to have been a member of the Nazi

0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:10.920
<v Speaker 1>Party and more than a nominal participant in its activities,

0:20:11.520 --> 0:20:15.040
<v Speaker 1>or an active supporter of Nazism or militarism, shall be

0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:19.760
<v Speaker 1>brought to the US here under. However, neither position nor

0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:24.040
<v Speaker 1>honors awarded a specialist under the Nazi regime solely on

0:20:24.119 --> 0:20:28.480
<v Speaker 1>account of his scientific or technical ability, will in themselves

0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:32.199
<v Speaker 1>be considered sufficient to disqualify a specialist for evacuation to

0:20:32.240 --> 0:20:35.000
<v Speaker 1>the US. Here under where there is doubt as to

0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:38.240
<v Speaker 1>the qualification of a specialist under the preceding sentence, the

0:20:38.359 --> 0:20:41.600
<v Speaker 1>Commanding General U s F E. T. May transport the

0:20:41.640 --> 0:20:45.800
<v Speaker 1>specialist to the US, where further interrogation and screening shall

0:20:45.840 --> 0:20:50.640
<v Speaker 1>be conducted immediately in order to determine such qualification. Before

0:20:50.680 --> 0:20:54.720
<v Speaker 1>October of nineteen, the State Department had been pre approving

0:20:54.760 --> 0:20:58.600
<v Speaker 1>Project paper Clip candidates before they left Europe, but after

0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:01.240
<v Speaker 1>that point the process shift did so that the Immigration

0:21:01.280 --> 0:21:05.680
<v Speaker 1>and Naturalization Service Commissioner handled them in the US. This

0:21:05.760 --> 0:21:09.840
<v Speaker 1>dropped the State Department preclearance requirement, which was required by

0:21:09.960 --> 0:21:14.439
<v Speaker 1>law in occupied Germany. The Office of Military Government US

0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:18.320
<v Speaker 1>kept security dossier's on all of the candidates, but also

0:21:18.440 --> 0:21:22.520
<v Speaker 1>withheld the most damaging information on many high profile candidates.

0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:26.800
<v Speaker 1>Documents that were declassified in the nineteen seventies and afterward

0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:31.280
<v Speaker 1>revealed that reports on individual candidates were revised to basically

0:21:31.320 --> 0:21:35.200
<v Speaker 1>whitewash their backgrounds. Yes, some of these revisions were really

0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:38.840
<v Speaker 1>dramatic that sort of went from, you know, draft one,

0:21:39.040 --> 0:21:41.439
<v Speaker 1>the first thing in somebody's fil being like, this person

0:21:41.640 --> 0:21:45.840
<v Speaker 1>is a dangerous Nazi, and then later on being like,

0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:48.840
<v Speaker 1>as this person had no more than a nominal involvement

0:21:48.960 --> 0:21:53.000
<v Speaker 1>in the Nazi Party. So even though this whole project

0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:56.160
<v Speaker 1>had started with a lot of assurances that it absolutely

0:21:56.200 --> 0:21:59.920
<v Speaker 1>would not involve ardent Nazis, in the end, Paper Clippers

0:22:00.040 --> 0:22:04.000
<v Speaker 1>included people who had worked directly without off Hitler, Heinrich

0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:07.720
<v Speaker 1>Himler and Herman Gurring. Some had been officers in the

0:22:07.800 --> 0:22:10.639
<v Speaker 1>Nazi Party or in the s S or the Essay.

0:22:10.680 --> 0:22:14.960
<v Speaker 1>Some stood trial at Nuremberg or faced other war crimes trials.

0:22:15.480 --> 0:22:19.120
<v Speaker 1>In some cases, people's backgrounds were so egregious that they

0:22:19.119 --> 0:22:21.760
<v Speaker 1>were giving contracts to work for the U. S Military,

0:22:21.840 --> 0:22:24.640
<v Speaker 1>but they did that work while still living in Germany.

0:22:24.800 --> 0:22:28.080
<v Speaker 1>But in other cases, people with pretty similar backgrounds still

0:22:28.119 --> 0:22:31.560
<v Speaker 1>made their way to the US. Of course, this whole

0:22:31.600 --> 0:22:35.520
<v Speaker 1>program was classified, but just as this shift was happening

0:22:35.560 --> 0:22:39.960
<v Speaker 1>from temporary contracts to American citizenship, the American public was

0:22:40.000 --> 0:22:43.240
<v Speaker 1>becoming more aware of what was going on. This started

0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:47.119
<v Speaker 1>thanks to news reports that originated from Russian language newspapers

0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:51.160
<v Speaker 1>being printed in Germany. Soon publications like The New York

0:22:51.200 --> 0:22:55.280
<v Speaker 1>Times and Newsweek were reporting on German researchers, some of

0:22:55.320 --> 0:22:59.080
<v Speaker 1>them Nazis, being brought to the US and offered citizenship.

0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:02.399
<v Speaker 1>The War Department tried to respond to all this with

0:23:02.480 --> 0:23:07.040
<v Speaker 1>its own favorable propaganda about the program. It's the whole

0:23:07.080 --> 0:23:10.240
<v Speaker 1>idea of like nowhere, only bringing the good Germans here,

0:23:11.320 --> 0:23:16.360
<v Speaker 1>like interviews with handpicked scientists who were doing relatively neutral

0:23:16.400 --> 0:23:20.520
<v Speaker 1>and wholesome seeming work. Of course, this all had to

0:23:20.520 --> 0:23:24.959
<v Speaker 1>totally sidestep the fact that many paper clippers had been Nazis,

0:23:25.119 --> 0:23:28.120
<v Speaker 1>and even if they had not been ardent, their work

0:23:28.240 --> 0:23:31.000
<v Speaker 1>during the war had still contributed to, or at the

0:23:31.080 --> 0:23:35.040
<v Speaker 1>absolute very least, been complicit in the German war effort.

0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:37.880
<v Speaker 1>This work had been involved in the deaths of Allied

0:23:37.920 --> 0:23:43.040
<v Speaker 1>personnel and the widespread atrocities of the Holocaust. There had

0:23:43.080 --> 0:23:45.800
<v Speaker 1>been critics of this program within the government in the

0:23:45.800 --> 0:23:50.040
<v Speaker 1>military from the beginning. For example, Samuel Klaus was an

0:23:50.040 --> 0:23:52.439
<v Speaker 1>attorney with the State Department and had been chosen to

0:23:52.480 --> 0:23:56.840
<v Speaker 1>represent the State Department with Joah. He had argued strongly

0:23:56.920 --> 0:24:00.000
<v Speaker 1>against the program since he first became involved, pointing out

0:24:00.000 --> 0:24:02.720
<v Speaker 1>out that the United States was giving Nazis the chance

0:24:02.760 --> 0:24:06.840
<v Speaker 1>for American citizenship while denying that chance to refugees and

0:24:06.880 --> 0:24:10.080
<v Speaker 1>displaced persons who had been persecuted and harmed by the

0:24:10.200 --> 0:24:14.360
<v Speaker 1>Nazi regime. Thanks in part to Claus's role, the relationship

0:24:14.400 --> 0:24:18.440
<v Speaker 1>between the State Department and the military became incredibly adversarial

0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:21.680
<v Speaker 1>during this program, and he wound up being targeted during

0:24:21.680 --> 0:24:25.199
<v Speaker 1>the Red Scare. Yeah. He uh. He made a lot

0:24:25.240 --> 0:24:27.680
<v Speaker 1>of incredibly strident criticisms of all of this. He was

0:24:27.720 --> 0:24:32.399
<v Speaker 1>eventually moved off the project. Aside from his well argued

0:24:32.440 --> 0:24:34.760
<v Speaker 1>criticisms of all of this, he apparently was also kind

0:24:34.760 --> 0:24:37.119
<v Speaker 1>of a tricky person to work with and rubbed a

0:24:37.160 --> 0:24:39.080
<v Speaker 1>lot of people the wrong way in this and many

0:24:39.080 --> 0:24:43.600
<v Speaker 1>other contexts, So he seems like kind of a tangle um.

0:24:43.640 --> 0:24:47.159
<v Speaker 1>After these reports, though, there was a lot of vocal

0:24:47.200 --> 0:24:50.639
<v Speaker 1>criticism of this program from the public as well. On

0:24:50.720 --> 0:24:55.600
<v Speaker 1>December six, the Counsel Against Intolerance in America sent a

0:24:55.640 --> 0:24:59.959
<v Speaker 1>telegram to President Truman which read quote as Americans citizen

0:25:00.160 --> 0:25:03.960
<v Speaker 1>permit us to express our profound concern over reports that

0:25:04.119 --> 0:25:07.480
<v Speaker 1>Nazi scientists have not only been brought to this country

0:25:07.480 --> 0:25:10.679
<v Speaker 1>by the United States Army for research projects, but that

0:25:10.760 --> 0:25:13.639
<v Speaker 1>their families are to follow them, and that they may

0:25:13.680 --> 0:25:17.600
<v Speaker 1>be permitted to remain here permanently. We hold these individuals

0:25:17.600 --> 0:25:21.640
<v Speaker 1>to be potentially dangerous carriers of racial and religious hatred.

0:25:22.119 --> 0:25:26.040
<v Speaker 1>Their former eminence as Nazi Party members and supporters raises

0:25:26.080 --> 0:25:29.520
<v Speaker 1>the issue of their fitness to become American citizens or

0:25:29.600 --> 0:25:34.720
<v Speaker 1>hold key positions in American industrial, scientific, and educational institutions.

0:25:35.280 --> 0:25:39.320
<v Speaker 1>If it is deemed imperative to utilize these individuals in

0:25:39.400 --> 0:25:42.639
<v Speaker 1>this country, we earnestly petition you to make sure they

0:25:42.680 --> 0:25:46.080
<v Speaker 1>will not be granted permanent residents or citizenship, and the

0:25:46.200 --> 0:25:50.000
<v Speaker 1>United States with the opportunity which that would afford of

0:25:50.200 --> 0:25:55.000
<v Speaker 1>inculcating these anti democratic doctrines which seek to undermine and

0:25:55.160 --> 0:25:59.880
<v Speaker 1>destroy our national unity. That telegram was signed by about

0:26:00.040 --> 0:26:04.359
<v Speaker 1>forty people, including Albert Einstein, A Philip Randolph, and Rabbi B.

0:26:04.480 --> 0:26:08.760
<v Speaker 1>Benedict Glazer. Eleanor Roosevelt and Albert Einstein worked together to

0:26:08.960 --> 0:26:13.320
<v Speaker 1>vocally opposed the program. Other organizations that spoke out against

0:26:13.320 --> 0:26:16.160
<v Speaker 1>it included the n double a c P, The Society

0:26:16.240 --> 0:26:19.200
<v Speaker 1>for the Prevention of World War Three, and the Federation

0:26:19.240 --> 0:26:23.040
<v Speaker 1>of American Scientists, whose statement described the program as quote

0:26:23.280 --> 0:26:25.800
<v Speaker 1>an affront to the people of all countries who so

0:26:25.920 --> 0:26:29.440
<v Speaker 1>recently fought beside us, to the refugees whose lives were

0:26:29.480 --> 0:26:33.840
<v Speaker 1>shattered by Nazism, to our unfortunate scientific colleagues of former

0:26:33.920 --> 0:26:37.360
<v Speaker 1>occupied lands, and to all of those others who suffered

0:26:37.440 --> 0:26:40.960
<v Speaker 1>under the yoke these men helped to forge from their

0:26:41.040 --> 0:26:44.600
<v Speaker 1>Operation paper Clip continued to make some pretty astounding headlines

0:26:44.640 --> 0:26:48.360
<v Speaker 1>that were honestly pretty embarrassing to the authorities who were

0:26:48.400 --> 0:26:51.000
<v Speaker 1>behind it. We'll talk about some of these things more

0:26:51.000 --> 0:26:54.359
<v Speaker 1>in this upcoming, not yet written episode of the show.

0:26:54.960 --> 0:26:58.919
<v Speaker 1>On March nine seven, Drew Pearson wrote an article for

0:26:58.960 --> 0:27:02.080
<v Speaker 1>The New York Times that alleged that Carl Crouch had

0:27:02.119 --> 0:27:07.159
<v Speaker 1>been offered a paper Clip contract while incarcerated at Nuremberg,

0:27:07.200 --> 0:27:11.200
<v Speaker 1>where he was awaiting a trial for war crimes. Crouch

0:27:11.280 --> 0:27:15.840
<v Speaker 1>was ultimately convicted of enslavement and crimes against humanity. Project

0:27:15.840 --> 0:27:19.960
<v Speaker 1>paper Clip wrapped up in September of ninety but German

0:27:20.000 --> 0:27:23.000
<v Speaker 1>scientists were still brought into the US after that point.

0:27:23.240 --> 0:27:32.480
<v Speaker 1>We're going to talk more about that after a sponsor break.

0:27:33.280 --> 0:27:37.160
<v Speaker 1>Project paper Clip, also known as Operation paper Clip, formally

0:27:37.400 --> 0:27:41.120
<v Speaker 1>ran from March of ninety six to September of ninety,

0:27:41.960 --> 0:27:46.119
<v Speaker 1>building on its precursor, Operation Overcast, as we talked about earlier,

0:27:46.680 --> 0:27:51.320
<v Speaker 1>but the same basic process continued under various different names

0:27:51.400 --> 0:27:55.840
<v Speaker 1>and with various adjustments for much longer. The recruitment of

0:27:55.880 --> 0:28:00.399
<v Speaker 1>German scientists actually accelerated during the Berlin Blockade, which is

0:28:00.400 --> 0:28:03.920
<v Speaker 1>when the Soviet Union blocked access to parts of Berlin

0:28:04.119 --> 0:28:07.560
<v Speaker 1>in nineteen forty eight and nineteen forty nine. The idea

0:28:07.760 --> 0:28:11.480
<v Speaker 1>was once again to keep the Soviets from getting access

0:28:11.520 --> 0:28:15.480
<v Speaker 1>to more German knowledge and technology, with the CIA and

0:28:15.600 --> 0:28:19.480
<v Speaker 1>JOAH basically competing with each other in their efforts to

0:28:19.600 --> 0:28:24.520
<v Speaker 1>find and recruit more German specialists. Things escalated once again

0:28:24.600 --> 0:28:27.200
<v Speaker 1>during the Korean War under a project that was known

0:28:27.280 --> 0:28:32.240
<v Speaker 1>alternately as Accelerated paper Clip and Project sixty three. This

0:28:32.280 --> 0:28:37.480
<v Speaker 1>program involved quote evacuating high profile scientists from Germany, and

0:28:37.520 --> 0:28:40.120
<v Speaker 1>the focus shifted away from establishing that they were not

0:28:40.240 --> 0:28:45.000
<v Speaker 1>Nazis to establishing that they were not communists. Recruits during

0:28:45.040 --> 0:28:48.960
<v Speaker 1>this particular period included Walter Schreiber, who had been the

0:28:49.080 --> 0:28:52.680
<v Speaker 1>surgeon General under the Third Reich, and he was hired

0:28:52.720 --> 0:28:54.920
<v Speaker 1>to work at the U. S. Air Force School of

0:28:54.960 --> 0:28:59.240
<v Speaker 1>Aviation Medicine. His time in the US didn't last long, though,

0:28:59.320 --> 0:29:02.360
<v Speaker 1>and it was of more information about this program coming

0:29:02.360 --> 0:29:06.240
<v Speaker 1>to public light. In nineteen fifty one, former war crimes

0:29:06.280 --> 0:29:11.160
<v Speaker 1>investigator Leopold Alexander noticed a brief mention of his hiring

0:29:11.240 --> 0:29:15.320
<v Speaker 1>in a medical journal. Alexander wrote to the Massachusetts Medical

0:29:15.400 --> 0:29:19.440
<v Speaker 1>Society and to the Boston Globe denouncing this hiring. When

0:29:19.440 --> 0:29:23.320
<v Speaker 1>the Globe brand its story, it included a statement from Schreiber,

0:29:23.360 --> 0:29:26.880
<v Speaker 1>who said that he had been the victim of Russian disinformation.

0:29:27.600 --> 0:29:31.480
<v Speaker 1>In the face of increasing and increasingly public outrage against

0:29:31.480 --> 0:29:34.480
<v Speaker 1>Schreiber's work in the US, plans started to form to

0:29:34.560 --> 0:29:38.160
<v Speaker 1>return him to Europe, but intelligence experts were concerned that

0:29:38.200 --> 0:29:41.480
<v Speaker 1>he might be a security risk. He had previously been

0:29:41.520 --> 0:29:44.720
<v Speaker 1>captured by Russia and had supposedly escaped, but a lot

0:29:44.800 --> 0:29:48.240
<v Speaker 1>of this was mysterious, a little bit fishy, and there

0:29:48.240 --> 0:29:51.320
<v Speaker 1>were concerns that he might very well start informing to

0:29:51.360 --> 0:29:55.120
<v Speaker 1>the Russians. At the same time, American officials were concerned

0:29:55.160 --> 0:29:58.000
<v Speaker 1>that he also presented a security risk if he remained

0:29:58.040 --> 0:30:01.360
<v Speaker 1>in the United States, since he had extensive knowledge of

0:30:01.400 --> 0:30:03.920
<v Speaker 1>all the other paper clippers who had been high ranking

0:30:04.080 --> 0:30:07.960
<v Speaker 1>and ardent Nazis, basically, they were afraid he would blow

0:30:08.000 --> 0:30:12.120
<v Speaker 1>their cover. Eventually, the US paid for his passage to Argentina,

0:30:12.200 --> 0:30:15.040
<v Speaker 1>where he had family and which had already become home

0:30:15.320 --> 0:30:19.080
<v Speaker 1>to a community of high profile Nazi officials. He was

0:30:19.120 --> 0:30:24.080
<v Speaker 1>also given an undisclosed allowance. In the nineteen fifties, other

0:30:24.280 --> 0:30:28.000
<v Speaker 1>Allied nations that had been working with German researchers within

0:30:28.040 --> 0:30:32.960
<v Speaker 1>their own borders generally started returning those researchers to Germany,

0:30:33.000 --> 0:30:35.600
<v Speaker 1>but in the US most were on the path to

0:30:35.720 --> 0:30:40.000
<v Speaker 1>becoming citizens. In fact, nine of the Germans who were

0:30:40.080 --> 0:30:43.240
<v Speaker 1>brought to the US between nineteen forty five and nineteen

0:30:43.280 --> 0:30:47.480
<v Speaker 1>fifty two ultimately became US citizens. And even though the

0:30:47.520 --> 0:30:50.680
<v Speaker 1>details of the program were still classified, it had really

0:30:50.720 --> 0:30:53.440
<v Speaker 1>become something of an open secret. I mean, the the

0:30:53.480 --> 0:30:56.040
<v Speaker 1>War Department had had this whole propaganda campaign about these

0:30:56.080 --> 0:31:00.600
<v Speaker 1>being the good Germans. Only when the Soviet Union launched

0:31:00.640 --> 0:31:04.200
<v Speaker 1>the satellites spt NICK in nineteen fifty seven, Bob Hope

0:31:04.320 --> 0:31:07.000
<v Speaker 1>joked that it meant that quote their Germans were better

0:31:07.040 --> 0:31:10.240
<v Speaker 1>than our Germans. Bob Hope is just one of the

0:31:10.320 --> 0:31:14.280
<v Speaker 1>people that this quote has been attributed to. Sometimes it's

0:31:14.560 --> 0:31:18.400
<v Speaker 1>their German rocket scientists were better than our German rocket scientists.

0:31:19.120 --> 0:31:24.920
<v Speaker 1>People knew it was obvious. In nineteen fifty nine, Lieutenant

0:31:24.960 --> 0:31:28.120
<v Speaker 1>Colonel Henry Whalen became deputy director of JOAH, which was

0:31:28.160 --> 0:31:32.080
<v Speaker 1>still overseeing this work. He was also spying for Russia,

0:31:32.320 --> 0:31:35.960
<v Speaker 1>something that went undetected until nineteen sixty three, when the

0:31:36.040 --> 0:31:39.320
<v Speaker 1>FBI investigated. It became clear that he had handed over

0:31:39.520 --> 0:31:42.840
<v Speaker 1>or destroyed a lot of files related to Project paper Clip,

0:31:43.320 --> 0:31:45.240
<v Speaker 1>so at least some of the details about all of

0:31:45.280 --> 0:31:49.160
<v Speaker 1>this may never be known. Whalen pleaded guilty to charges

0:31:49.200 --> 0:31:52.880
<v Speaker 1>of conspiring with Soviet agents, but the Justice Department dropped

0:31:52.920 --> 0:31:57.560
<v Speaker 1>the charge of espionage. By the time Whalen's espionage was uncovered,

0:31:57.640 --> 0:32:01.360
<v Speaker 1>JOAH had actually been disbanded. That happened in nineteen sixty two,

0:32:01.840 --> 0:32:04.760
<v Speaker 1>and a few years after that people started combing through

0:32:04.920 --> 0:32:08.480
<v Speaker 1>the details of what had happened during and after the war.

0:32:09.280 --> 0:32:12.280
<v Speaker 1>The first book on Operation paper Clip to come out

0:32:12.280 --> 0:32:15.800
<v Speaker 1>of this work was Clarence Lasbie's Project paper Clip German

0:32:15.880 --> 0:32:18.600
<v Speaker 1>Scientists in the Cold War, which was published in nineteen

0:32:18.680 --> 0:32:22.360
<v Speaker 1>seventy one. At that point, though most of the documents

0:32:22.400 --> 0:32:25.920
<v Speaker 1>related to the program were still classified, and Lasbie's general

0:32:25.960 --> 0:32:30.280
<v Speaker 1>conclusion was that authorities had screened everyone, but that a

0:32:30.320 --> 0:32:35.880
<v Speaker 1>few ardent Nazis had unfortunately managed to evade detection. Criticism

0:32:35.920 --> 0:32:38.520
<v Speaker 1>of the paper clip program and its successors had been

0:32:38.600 --> 0:32:42.040
<v Speaker 1>ongoing through all these years, but public interest reached another

0:32:42.120 --> 0:32:45.880
<v Speaker 1>peak in nineteen seventy eight after NBC aired a mini

0:32:45.960 --> 0:32:50.400
<v Speaker 1>series on the Holocaust. In night, Eli Rosenbaum, who was

0:32:50.440 --> 0:32:53.600
<v Speaker 1>a student at Harvard Law, was browsing through a bookstore.

0:32:54.240 --> 0:32:57.600
<v Speaker 1>He picked up both Dora, the Nazi concentration camp where

0:32:57.600 --> 0:33:01.320
<v Speaker 1>modern space technology was born in and prisoners died by

0:33:01.400 --> 0:33:04.280
<v Speaker 1>Jean Michel, who was imprisoned at the camp, and The

0:33:04.400 --> 0:33:07.560
<v Speaker 1>Rocket Team, which traced the history of the V two rocket,

0:33:08.240 --> 0:33:10.760
<v Speaker 1>and in reading these books he connected the V twos

0:33:10.840 --> 0:33:14.560
<v Speaker 1>development with the use of slave labor from the concentration camp.

0:33:15.160 --> 0:33:17.960
<v Speaker 1>So when Rosenbaum finished his law degree, he got a

0:33:18.040 --> 0:33:20.840
<v Speaker 1>job at the Department of Justice in the Office of

0:33:20.880 --> 0:33:24.560
<v Speaker 1>Special Investigations. The o s I had been established in

0:33:24.640 --> 0:33:29.040
<v Speaker 1>nineteen seventy nine to investigate and prosecute Nazi war criminals

0:33:29.040 --> 0:33:32.760
<v Speaker 1>who were living in the US. Rosenbaum convinced the head

0:33:32.760 --> 0:33:35.400
<v Speaker 1>of the o s I to open an investigation into

0:33:35.440 --> 0:33:39.680
<v Speaker 1>paper clipper, Arthur Rudolph, who designed the Saturn five rocket

0:33:39.960 --> 0:33:41.520
<v Speaker 1>and had been a big part of the V two

0:33:41.560 --> 0:33:45.240
<v Speaker 1>development team. In addition to coordinating the use of enslaved

0:33:45.280 --> 0:33:48.120
<v Speaker 1>labor at the German development facility known as Middle Work,

0:33:48.600 --> 0:33:51.640
<v Speaker 1>he had known about and been complicit in, or possibly

0:33:51.680 --> 0:33:56.040
<v Speaker 1>been actively involved in atrocities that were committed there. He

0:33:56.120 --> 0:33:59.960
<v Speaker 1>maintained that he was innocent of these accusations. Rather the

0:34:00.160 --> 0:34:03.440
<v Speaker 1>stand trial, he renounced his US citizenship in nineteen eighty

0:34:03.480 --> 0:34:06.120
<v Speaker 1>four and returned to Europe after thirty eight years in

0:34:06.160 --> 0:34:10.600
<v Speaker 1>the US. After this happened, investigative journalists started trying to

0:34:10.680 --> 0:34:15.200
<v Speaker 1>get more and more information about Operation paper Clip, including

0:34:15.280 --> 0:34:17.960
<v Speaker 1>through the Freedom of Information Act, which had been signed

0:34:17.960 --> 0:34:21.960
<v Speaker 1>into law in nineteen sixty seven. In nineteen eighty five,

0:34:22.120 --> 0:34:25.960
<v Speaker 1>journalists Linda Hunt broke a story by publishing an article

0:34:26.080 --> 0:34:30.160
<v Speaker 1>titled US cover Up of Nazi Scientists in the Bulletin

0:34:30.200 --> 0:34:33.840
<v Speaker 1>of the Atomic Scientists. This article read in part quote,

0:34:33.920 --> 0:34:38.040
<v Speaker 1>formerly classified documents revealed detales of the U. S military's

0:34:38.120 --> 0:34:43.279
<v Speaker 1>employment of alleged Nazi war criminals in highly sensitive defense projects.

0:34:43.760 --> 0:34:47.839
<v Speaker 1>They show that government officials concealed information about many specialists

0:34:47.880 --> 0:34:51.160
<v Speaker 1>in order to secure their legal U S immigration status.

0:34:51.600 --> 0:34:54.600
<v Speaker 1>The cover up seems to have stemmed from a belief

0:34:54.719 --> 0:34:58.800
<v Speaker 1>that US national security would be best served by keeping

0:34:58.840 --> 0:35:02.480
<v Speaker 1>these Nazi special lists away from the Soviet Union, but

0:35:02.560 --> 0:35:06.439
<v Speaker 1>it was a direct contravention of the presidential directive which

0:35:06.480 --> 0:35:10.200
<v Speaker 1>formally set up Project paper Clip. Hunt published a book

0:35:10.239 --> 0:35:14.960
<v Speaker 1>based on this and other research in Journalist Tom Bauer

0:35:15.000 --> 0:35:18.840
<v Speaker 1>had done the same in seven. Both Hunt and Bauer

0:35:19.040 --> 0:35:23.720
<v Speaker 1>framed Project paper Clip as a conspiracy. In the US

0:35:23.760 --> 0:35:27.600
<v Speaker 1>passed the Nazi War Crimes Disclosure Act, which mandated the

0:35:27.640 --> 0:35:32.680
<v Speaker 1>declassification of roughly eight point five million pages of records

0:35:32.880 --> 0:35:36.799
<v Speaker 1>related to all this. This mass declassification led to the

0:35:36.840 --> 0:35:40.200
<v Speaker 1>publication of U S Intelligence and the Nazis in two

0:35:40.200 --> 0:35:44.200
<v Speaker 1>thousand and four. A key sentence from its introduction is

0:35:44.320 --> 0:35:48.960
<v Speaker 1>quote Granted, some intelligence activities involve a degree of secret

0:35:49.120 --> 0:35:53.719
<v Speaker 1>and messiness which strained conventional moral standards, but there was

0:35:53.880 --> 0:35:57.000
<v Speaker 1>no compelling reasons to begin the post war era with

0:35:57.080 --> 0:36:00.560
<v Speaker 1>the assistance of some of those associated with the worst

0:36:00.640 --> 0:36:05.359
<v Speaker 1>crimes of the war. Between its establishment in and its

0:36:05.400 --> 0:36:08.400
<v Speaker 1>merge with the Human Rights and Special Prosecution Section in

0:36:09.680 --> 0:36:12.759
<v Speaker 1>the Office of Special Investigations, work led to at least

0:36:12.800 --> 0:36:16.200
<v Speaker 1>one hundred Nazi war criminals being stripped of their US

0:36:16.280 --> 0:36:20.799
<v Speaker 1>citizenship or removed from the United States. In two thousand six,

0:36:20.880 --> 0:36:23.960
<v Speaker 1>O s I legal historian Judith Fagan wrote a six

0:36:24.040 --> 0:36:28.320
<v Speaker 1>hundred page report called Striving for Accountability in the Aftermath

0:36:28.360 --> 0:36:31.200
<v Speaker 1>of the Holocaust, which detailed both the O. S i

0:36:31.320 --> 0:36:34.560
<v Speaker 1>s efforts to investigate Nazi war criminals and the U

0:36:34.680 --> 0:36:38.120
<v Speaker 1>S efforts to shelter them. After the Department of Justice

0:36:38.160 --> 0:36:42.160
<v Speaker 1>released an incredibly heavily redacted version in response to a

0:36:42.200 --> 0:36:46.160
<v Speaker 1>Freedom of Information Act request, former officials leaked the entire,

0:36:46.360 --> 0:36:49.640
<v Speaker 1>unredacted thing to The New York Times. Yeah. I read

0:36:49.680 --> 0:36:52.560
<v Speaker 1>an article that described this as an incredible cell phone

0:36:52.760 --> 0:36:55.920
<v Speaker 1>because they had they had released something that was so

0:36:56.040 --> 0:36:59.839
<v Speaker 1>incredibly redacted to the point of uselessness that that other

0:37:00.160 --> 0:37:02.160
<v Speaker 1>people were like, well, We're just going to leak the

0:37:02.320 --> 0:37:06.600
<v Speaker 1>entire thing. In part because of all the information that

0:37:06.640 --> 0:37:10.000
<v Speaker 1>has been declassified and released in the last few decades,

0:37:10.040 --> 0:37:13.720
<v Speaker 1>there are various organizations and institutions that are really still

0:37:13.760 --> 0:37:17.760
<v Speaker 1>wrestling with how to reconcile their own histories with paper

0:37:17.800 --> 0:37:20.400
<v Speaker 1>clippers and their own connection to the Nazi Party and

0:37:20.480 --> 0:37:25.000
<v Speaker 1>war crimes. We'll be talking about that, Uh, but since

0:37:25.000 --> 0:37:27.000
<v Speaker 1>that will involve some of the discussion of more specific

0:37:27.040 --> 0:37:29.600
<v Speaker 1>people who were part of the program in a future episode.

0:37:29.680 --> 0:37:33.239
<v Speaker 1>It might be the next episode, but since I haven't

0:37:33.239 --> 0:37:35.400
<v Speaker 1>written it yet, as I said at the top of

0:37:35.400 --> 0:37:38.480
<v Speaker 1>the show, I don't quite want to promise anything. Do

0:37:38.560 --> 0:37:40.640
<v Speaker 1>you have a little bit of listener mail? I do

0:37:40.719 --> 0:37:44.360
<v Speaker 1>have listener mail. This is actually a listener Facebook comment,

0:37:44.880 --> 0:37:46.560
<v Speaker 1>which I don't think we read a lot of, and

0:37:46.640 --> 0:37:48.160
<v Speaker 1>listener to mail because they tend to be a little

0:37:48.160 --> 0:37:50.640
<v Speaker 1>trickier for us to keep up with than the email

0:37:50.680 --> 0:37:53.719
<v Speaker 1>which is just there in the inbox. UM. And this

0:37:53.800 --> 0:37:57.239
<v Speaker 1>is from Anne, who was commenting on the behind the

0:37:57.280 --> 0:38:00.960
<v Speaker 1>scenes where Uh, Holly and I had been talking about

0:38:01.000 --> 0:38:05.879
<v Speaker 1>the Tacoma Narrows Bridge. UM. And I talked about how

0:38:05.960 --> 0:38:07.919
<v Speaker 1>when I was a kid, I would go on road

0:38:07.920 --> 0:38:10.920
<v Speaker 1>trips with my mom to western North Carolina. UM, and

0:38:10.960 --> 0:38:12.959
<v Speaker 1>when we got to the Lynn Cove Dot, we would

0:38:12.960 --> 0:38:14.839
<v Speaker 1>just turn around before we got to the Lynn Cove

0:38:15.239 --> 0:38:17.200
<v Speaker 1>Viaduct because we were both scared of heights and my

0:38:17.239 --> 0:38:18.759
<v Speaker 1>mom didn't want to drive on it and I didn't

0:38:18.800 --> 0:38:21.319
<v Speaker 1>want to ride on it. Uh. And I was like,

0:38:21.360 --> 0:38:24.600
<v Speaker 1>I assume it's still there. So Anne has left a

0:38:24.600 --> 0:38:28.440
<v Speaker 1>comment to say, just listen, Tracy. The Lynn Cove Viaduct

0:38:28.480 --> 0:38:30.960
<v Speaker 1>is indeed still there on the Blue Ridge Parkway. When

0:38:30.960 --> 0:38:32.759
<v Speaker 1>we used to live in Atlanta, we would drive that

0:38:32.800 --> 0:38:34.759
<v Speaker 1>section of the Blue Ridge Parkway on our way to

0:38:34.840 --> 0:38:38.360
<v Speaker 1>family get togethers in Blowing Rock. As a passenger, it

0:38:38.440 --> 0:38:41.319
<v Speaker 1>never really bothered me, but I've never driven it. The

0:38:41.360 --> 0:38:43.240
<v Speaker 1>way it is set up against the side of the mountain,

0:38:43.280 --> 0:38:46.000
<v Speaker 1>it feels like more of the same curvy mountain roads

0:38:46.080 --> 0:38:48.160
<v Speaker 1>and less like being on a bridge to me. And

0:38:48.200 --> 0:38:52.160
<v Speaker 1>I've definitely been on way scarier curvy mountain roads than

0:38:52.239 --> 0:38:55.800
<v Speaker 1>the Blue Ridge Parkway Rocky Mountain National Park anyone. Anyway,

0:38:55.920 --> 0:38:58.800
<v Speaker 1>thanks ladies for the great podcast. As always, I've listened

0:38:58.840 --> 0:39:01.280
<v Speaker 1>since the short episode Day is not from the very beginning,

0:39:01.280 --> 0:39:03.319
<v Speaker 1>but I found it early enough that listening from the

0:39:03.360 --> 0:39:07.080
<v Speaker 1>beginning wasn't nearly the shore it would be now stuff

0:39:07.120 --> 0:39:08.759
<v Speaker 1>you miss and History Class remains and one of my

0:39:08.800 --> 0:39:10.920
<v Speaker 1>favorite podcasts of all the ones that listened to, and

0:39:10.960 --> 0:39:12.839
<v Speaker 1>I have learned so much about so many things over

0:39:12.840 --> 0:39:15.879
<v Speaker 1>the years, So thank you Anne for this comment. It's

0:39:15.920 --> 0:39:17.560
<v Speaker 1>been so long since I've been able to go to

0:39:17.600 --> 0:39:21.000
<v Speaker 1>western North Carolina that I was like I assume that

0:39:21.040 --> 0:39:25.600
<v Speaker 1>registered there. I did, uh. So I went to college

0:39:25.640 --> 0:39:30.000
<v Speaker 1>in Asheville, North Carolina. I grew up outside of Winston Salem,

0:39:30.040 --> 0:39:34.239
<v Speaker 1>North Carolina. And when I got to the point that

0:39:34.320 --> 0:39:36.560
<v Speaker 1>I was going to be able to take a car

0:39:36.760 --> 0:39:40.080
<v Speaker 1>with me to college, I was like, I'm gonna have

0:39:40.160 --> 0:39:43.720
<v Speaker 1>to get over this fear of heights, because I cannot

0:39:43.800 --> 0:39:48.359
<v Speaker 1>drive myself up the mountain if I don't. So I

0:39:48.400 --> 0:39:53.040
<v Speaker 1>did eventually drive on the Lynco Viaduct myself without my

0:39:53.080 --> 0:39:58.799
<v Speaker 1>mom um, and I have, you know, driven on things

0:39:58.800 --> 0:40:02.359
<v Speaker 1>that are definitely much scary er than that. Weirdly, one

0:40:02.440 --> 0:40:06.040
<v Speaker 1>of them was UM going to a thing that used

0:40:06.080 --> 0:40:09.560
<v Speaker 1>to happen once a year called max fun Con, which

0:40:09.600 --> 0:40:13.839
<v Speaker 1>was held in Lake Arrowhead, California, which involved driving out

0:40:13.840 --> 0:40:17.879
<v Speaker 1>a road that felt like a lot like driving up

0:40:17.880 --> 0:40:20.560
<v Speaker 1>the mountain on I forty to go to Asheville from

0:40:20.560 --> 0:40:23.560
<v Speaker 1>from points east of there, except it would go on

0:40:23.680 --> 0:40:26.920
<v Speaker 1>a lot longer um. And so the first time that

0:40:27.000 --> 0:40:28.200
<v Speaker 1>I was going to go there, I had kind of

0:40:28.200 --> 0:40:30.200
<v Speaker 1>asked people like, how how scary is this drive, and

0:40:30.200 --> 0:40:32.120
<v Speaker 1>They're like, Oh, it's not that bad. And as I

0:40:32.160 --> 0:40:33.640
<v Speaker 1>was driving up there, I was like, Oh, this just

0:40:33.719 --> 0:40:36.840
<v Speaker 1>feels just like driving on I forty. But it just

0:40:36.920 --> 0:40:40.319
<v Speaker 1>kept going. Um, and there was one of those low

0:40:40.440 --> 0:40:44.520
<v Speaker 1>lying cloud days and at some point I got above

0:40:44.719 --> 0:40:47.719
<v Speaker 1>the cloud and was able to see down it. And

0:40:48.160 --> 0:40:50.919
<v Speaker 1>that's when I was like, oh, this is a little

0:40:51.000 --> 0:40:55.120
<v Speaker 1>higher than I might like to be right now. I

0:40:55.120 --> 0:40:59.680
<v Speaker 1>can't understand that. So anyway, thank you Anne for this comment. Um,

0:40:59.719 --> 0:41:01.480
<v Speaker 1>if you would like to write to us about this

0:41:01.560 --> 0:41:03.879
<v Speaker 1>or any other podcasts were History Podcast at i heart

0:41:03.920 --> 0:41:06.919
<v Speaker 1>radio dot com. We're all over social media A miss

0:41:06.960 --> 0:41:09.400
<v Speaker 1>in History? Uh, That's where you'll find our Facebook and

0:41:09.400 --> 0:41:13.080
<v Speaker 1>Twitter and Pinterest and Instagram. Even though we don't read

0:41:13.239 --> 0:41:15.919
<v Speaker 1>Facebook comments on the show very often, we do see

0:41:15.960 --> 0:41:19.080
<v Speaker 1>them when people leave them. We don't really see the

0:41:19.080 --> 0:41:22.839
<v Speaker 1>ones that people really leave on our website though. The

0:41:22.880 --> 0:41:24.520
<v Speaker 1>thing we don't have the power to turn off with

0:41:24.600 --> 0:41:28.440
<v Speaker 1>folks leave comments there. Um. You can subscribe to our

0:41:28.480 --> 0:41:32.399
<v Speaker 1>show on the I heart Radio app and anywhere else

0:41:32.400 --> 0:41:40.040
<v Speaker 1>do you get podcasts. Stuff you missed in History Class

0:41:40.040 --> 0:41:43.120
<v Speaker 1>is a production of I heart Radio. For more podcasts

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